1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Rating. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Paul, 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: Mission controlled dec and most importantly, you are you. You 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: are here that makes this the stuff they don't want 9 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: you to know. Uh, folks, we're so glad you joined 10 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: us today because, frankly, part of this episode is gonna 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: be us asking you for insight and advice. Uh. This 12 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: is part two of a continuing series, and it's something 13 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: that a lot of our fellow listeners had asked us 14 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: about after they heard part one of How to Be 15 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: a Skeptic. I'm thinking, guys, maybe we start by painting 16 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: the scene. Okay, you're at dinner, maybe with your extended 17 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: family or maybe with your partner's family. You're just like 18 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: hanging out with an old friend you haven't seen in 19 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: a while. Conversations pleasant, Oh, how's your mom and them? 20 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: Et cetera. And then there's a plot twist. It might 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: be a crazy hot take in extreme political realms, or 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: it could be a weird red flag statement like well, 23 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: you know how they are, and they could be anyone. Honestly, 24 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: has this happened to you, guys? Oh god? Yes, I 25 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: mean when I was married, my ex's uh family was 26 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: quite large and quite politically opposed to me, and so 27 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: I kind of had to put on a happy face 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: and uh and play nice most of the time. But 29 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, family holidays, the booze starts to flow and 30 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: sometimes a little harder to to bite your tongue. I 31 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: think that's sort of what we're talking about here, is 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: how to maybe bite your tongue a little better, or 33 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: at least be a little more constructive and uh and 34 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: positive in the rhetoric around these kinds of tricky situations. Yes, 35 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: I would just say I've encountered a lot of people 36 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: that have different views than me, and I think maybe 37 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: that's why, at least internally, I feel like I have 38 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: a well rounded perspective on things because through this show, 39 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: really and through several highly influential people in my life, 40 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: I've learned some of the things we're going to talk 41 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: about today. Those highly influential people, by the way, are 42 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: not null nor me hopefully mostly mostly. Yeah, we'll get 43 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: in that club one day. So in this earlier episode 44 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: How to Be a Skeptic, Part One, we talked about 45 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: the importance of critical thinking and how we, as consumers 46 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: of not just media but any kind of information, can 47 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: use some pretty simple tactics to make sure we're doing 48 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: our best to think objectively even when our brains don't 49 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: want us to because your brain hates this stuff. It's 50 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,839 Speaker 1: like making someone eat vegetables, uh, if they're not a vegetarian, 51 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: in which are delicious. They're great. I love man roast 52 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: some Brussels sprouts, you know what I mean. I want, Yeah, 53 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: they're fabulous. And maybe not even a vegetarian, just someone 54 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: who has either decided or is cognitively opposed in some way, 55 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: shape or form to the taste or texture of vegetables, 56 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: like my fourteen year old. It's never gonna happen. Guys, 57 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: it's never gonna happen. I gotta hide that stuff inside 58 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: spaghetti sauce. Well still it still works. Uh. And that's 59 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: what that's kind of what we're talking about. That's a 60 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: surprisingly good comparison to what we're talking about. The idea 61 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: of sort of hiding the nutritional stuff in the fun stuff. Uh. 62 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: Today's episode is gonna have us tackling something a little 63 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: more difficult than applying critical thinking to your own thoughts, 64 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: but just as important. How do we talk our loved 65 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: ones off the cognitive ledge of wild or dangerous beliefs? 66 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: How do we help them think objectively? Uh? Here are 67 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: the facts? Start with some bad news. This is becoming 68 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: increasingly common and increasingly important, especially in US society today. 69 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,679 Speaker 1: I think the if you look at partisanship by almost 70 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: any metric, it is skyrocketed, meaning that people are less 71 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: and less likely to view themselves as um maybe party 72 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: agnostic or politically independent. There people are less and less 73 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: likely to pick policies or stances that they like, and 74 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: they're more and more likely to say, my fund this 75 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: party is my fundamental identity. So if I see you 76 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: know and are on a ballot, there's no way I'm 77 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: voting for If I see a D on a ballot, 78 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: there's no way I'm voting for him. And if they're 79 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: an independent, well I don't trust it. Well, and I 80 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: mean there there may be used to be days we've 81 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: talked about the history of political parties and and politics 82 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: where the two parties may be shared more things in 83 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: terms of like ideology, or had more things somewhat in common, 84 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: and the differences were a little more nuanced today unfortunately 85 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: whichever side you fall, and that's just not the case. Uh. 86 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: And that's by design, um, even if there are some 87 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: things buried within those policies, you know, of opposing political parties, 88 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: the rhetoric could not be more opposed to one another. 89 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: And and it is designed to create that divide that 90 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: we're talking about. Yeah, And and what's weird about that too, 91 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: is if you if you follow the money, a lot 92 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: of people who are um career politicians who are ideologically opposed, 93 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: the same companies are giving both of those folks money. 94 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: That's just like part of the business practice and stacking 95 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: the deck. And uh, you know, we know that sometimes 96 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: politics can be a third rail here, but what we're 97 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: really talking about it's not so much political episode. This 98 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: is an episode using that as a lens uh to 99 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: explore critical thought because we've seen it, Uh, we've seen 100 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: this be kind of the the fulcrum for a lot 101 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: of these conversations right now. If you look around the 102 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: United States, you'll see that about half of the American 103 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: population agrees with at least one thing you could call 104 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: a conspiracy, and a big chunk of the population, be honest, 105 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: your your faithful correspondent included, have a strong what's called 106 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: dispositional inclination towards believing that unseen and intentional forces exist, 107 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: you know, alls, uh dirty money stuff like that. This 108 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: comes from a University of Chicago's study by Jay Eric 109 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: Oliver and Thomas J. Wood. And I mean, come on, right, 110 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: there are secret groups, there, there is dirty money like 111 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: there are, there are hidden hands at play and acknowledging. 112 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: That doesn't make you crazy. I don't think it's even 113 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: inherently bad to say you agree with at least a 114 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: few things that are not the official narrative. I think 115 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: it's probably uh somewhat good and healthy, you know, to 116 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: just at least temper what you're being sold by politicians 117 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: and pundits and the news, you know, and just give 118 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: it a little bit of an extra think before diving 119 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: in wholeheartedly and saying, yes, this is the truth. Well, 120 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: I think that's what some people get wrong maybe about skepticism. 121 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: If you're truly being skeptical, you're analyzing all information, no 122 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: matter what the sources, even if that's a source that 123 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: you generally agree with or trust, you take that information 124 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: in and you analyze it the same way you would 125 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: just a random person walking on the street that gave 126 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: you similar or the same information, Right, I mean, that's 127 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: I think that's how we have to think about it 128 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: in our daily lives. So you've got to be skeptical 129 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: of the official story as well as the TikTok post. 130 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: Trust you what? Uh? Yeah, you know that these are 131 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: all shades right of just doing a little extra homework. Yeah, right, 132 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: because that's what people love, is having to do more stuff. Uh. 133 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: That's It's also strange because if you look at the 134 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: US in particular and you look at it objectively, US 135 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: history is shock full. It's rife with proven conspiracies and 136 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: cover ups and corruption. There's nothing wrong, there's nothing logical 137 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: about seeing those precedents and saying something similar could be 138 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: going down now or in the future, because the majority 139 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: of US history is all about how people didn't have 140 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: a problem doing that in the past. Uh, and a 141 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: lot of times escape consequences. But that same, like, that 142 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: same very reasonable assumption can be dangerous because you know, 143 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: like like you're saying with homework, it can make you 144 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: avoid looking at primary sources or questioning stuff that we 145 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: should question, or looking at a like you said, Matt, 146 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 1: a TikTok video or a breathless headline and saying let 147 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: me learn more about that. Folks love being right. They 148 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: hate being wrong. If you contradict a strongly held belief, 149 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: sometimes the people it can feel like a personal attack. 150 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: That's why it's so crazy difficult. It's pretty much impossible 151 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: to win an argument online. But I have a strong 152 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: emotional reaction. You're not telling you know, you're not sharing 153 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: with me NASA data that proves anything about the shape 154 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: of the planet. You're attacking me as a person, and 155 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: you're a jerk. And now I know you're not in 156 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: my tribe. Well, yeah, you think about it the individual person, 157 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: with all the things you just described, Ben, I believe this, 158 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: and I'm not a dumb person. So you're telling me 159 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: it's not right, but I believe it. So that equates 160 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: to me being a dumb person, right, or at least 161 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: that's the feeling. That's the internalized feeling, and totally makes sense. Yeah, 162 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: because most people obviously are quite intelligent when again given 163 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: the access to information and a safe place to kind 164 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: of pour over that stuff. There are two big factors 165 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: to this, two reasons that, uh, sometimes people may bucket 166 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: you when you're when you're disagreeing with them. Uh. And 167 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: Julie Beck, writing for The Atlantic, put it perfectly talking 168 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: about cognitive dissonance and some cost fallacy. So this is 169 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: what Julie has to say writing for The Atlantic. UH. Quote. 170 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: The theory of cognitive dissonance, the extreme discomfort of simultaneously 171 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: holding two thoughts that are in conflict, was developed by 172 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: the social psychologist Leon Festinger in the nineteen fifties. Uh. 173 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: The quote goes on um. In a famous study, Festinger 174 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: and his colleagues embedded themselves with a doomsday prophet named 175 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: Dorothy Martin, which is very pleasant and innocuous name for 176 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: a doomsday prophet. I don't know why. I think the 177 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: doomsday promis have to have some sort of like spectacular name, 178 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: but Dorothey Martin just seems like just a sweetie. Uh. Anyway, 179 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: I continue Dorothy Martin and her cult of followers who 180 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: believed that spacemen called the Guardians were coming to collect 181 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: them in flying saucers to save them from a coming flood, 182 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: as is often the case um with doomsday prophecies, This 183 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: did not transpire. Neither spacemen nor flo had ever graced 184 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: this planet. Uh that we know for that they were 185 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: aware of. Perhaps they were in the wrong place and 186 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: they landed elsewhere and they just got the math wrong. Anyway, 187 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: the quote goes on, but Martin just kept revising her 188 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 1: predictions again, something that we know doomsday profits often do. Uh. Sure, 189 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: the spaceman didn't show today, but hey, they were sure 190 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: to come tomorrow, and so on and so on. The 191 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: researchers watched with fascination as the believers kept on believing. 192 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: It was what believers do. Yeah, don't stop believing unless 193 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: you know it's literally harmful to you and those around you. 194 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: Than maybe it's time to rethink those beliefs. Despite all 195 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: the evidence that they were wrong, these folks kept on 196 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: keeping on. They kept on trucking, and Uh, this was 197 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: so interesting to these scientists who conducted this that they 198 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: wrote a book about it back in nineteen fifty seven, 199 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: I think, called When Prophecy Fails, And they summed it 200 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 1: up like this, We've said it before, But they were 201 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: in the trenches on the research. They said, quote, a 202 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: man with conviction is a hard man to change. Tell 203 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: him you disagree, and he turns away, showing facts or figures, 204 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: and he questions your sources, appeal to logic, and he 205 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: fails to see your point. Suppose he is presented with evidence, 206 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: unequivocable and undeniable evidence that his belief is wrong. What 207 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: will happen? The individual will frequently emerge not only unshaken, 208 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: but even more convinced with the truth of his beliefs 209 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: than ever before. I don't know why he got increasingly 210 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: excited in British there. That's not a faithful rendition. But 211 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: we've talked about this, right, like you double down sometimes 212 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: when you're presented with stuff that would make you question 213 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: your previous assumptions. We found a fancy name for this, 214 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: too motivated reasoning, which sounds a little bit more scientific 215 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 1: than cherry picking. Right. It's kind of a fancy way 216 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: of describing a bias. Right. Yeah, like you stuff that's 217 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: already floating around in your you know, consciousness, that shapes 218 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: the way you take in other information. And again we 219 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: talk about that brain always kind of wanting to maintain 220 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: that base level. A K. A. Ben taught me something 221 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: that bias, you know, the same as on a guitar amp. 222 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: You want to have that base level be dialed in, 223 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: and the machinery wants to maintain that base level, as 224 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: does the machinery in us, in our heads, our brains, 225 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: So that's what the brain is gonna do. Imagine you're 226 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: looking at a large screen, like a computer screen, and 227 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: on that screen there are tiny little articles, but you 228 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: can read the headlines. Imagine that screen is filled with 229 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: headlines that agree with whatever position you have, and then 230 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: that disagree with whatever position you have. If you have 231 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: a really hardline belief like this, and you have that 232 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: motivated reasoning, your brain, your eyes, and your brain are 233 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: going to hone in on the ones that agree with 234 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: what you're saying, and the other ones you're either going 235 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: to ignore and pretend like they're not there, or even 236 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: if your brain scans them and reads them, you're way 237 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: more likely to just forget those and throw them out 238 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: of your your whole system and then remember, like be 239 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: able to quote to your friends the ones that agree 240 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: with what you think. It's weird, yeah, even if they're 241 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: from the same publication. Right, the Wall Street Journal up 242 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: ed that you like is probably going to be the 243 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: one that makes you feel like you were correct. And 244 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if it's fully contradicted in the next 245 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: one that's there not at all. Uh And we found 246 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: this this is a that's a beautiful picture there, Matt 247 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: And and it's something a lot of people have experienced, right. Uh. 248 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: We know that this applies on such a fundamental, unconscious level, 249 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: like where it's not hyperbolic to say, your eye as 250 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: will naturally hone in on the stuff you agree with. 251 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: You might not be thinking about it, it's just what 252 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: your brain does now in uh these there was a 253 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: study where these researchers had undergrad college students from a 254 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: couple of different demographics listened to prerecorded speeches. And this 255 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: was clever because the speeches were purposely not good audio. 256 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: They had a bunch of static writing through them. And 257 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: if you were in the study while you're listening to 258 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: the speech, you could push a button that would just 259 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: for a few seconds, it would lower the static and 260 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: you could hear better. Uh. So these speeches were about 261 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: two things. I think they were oppositional views about smoking 262 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: tobacco and sometimes there were speeches attacking uh, the concept 263 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: of Christianity overall. If you're a student who was smoking 264 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: as N seven, so you know there are a lot 265 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: of chimneys walking around, uh, then you would turn. You 266 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: would be much more likely to reduce the static, so 267 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: you could hear a speech that said cigarettes might not 268 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: cause cancer. And if you were a non smoker, then 269 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: you would listen during the you would lower the static 270 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: and the anti smoking speech. If you went to church, 271 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: you would just let the static ride on that anti 272 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: Christianity thing and you would sit there and say, you know, 273 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 1: give me my honorarium or whatever. And then if you 274 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: you know, if you're less religious, then you would listen 275 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: more often. That's interesting. I really wish I could have 276 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: heard the original you know, like the original recordings they're like, 277 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: just to know how much static there was and how 278 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: well you could actually pick things out. Man, that's really good. 279 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: Also the fact that they were they were using big 280 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: tobacco propaganda and probably the only useful way that stuff 281 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: could ever bear out research. But look, just with this information, 282 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: there's a high level thing, uh, we can already sere 283 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: as an uphill battle. Now that is the most important part. 284 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 1: Knowing all this, is it possible to talk a loved 285 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: one back from one of those legends of thought to 286 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: help widen their information bubble, give them access to stuff 287 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: they may not have been able to access before. Is 288 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: there an effective empathetic way to help people back from 289 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: the brink? It's a question we're going to attempt to 290 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:35,959 Speaker 1: answer after a word from our sponsors. Here's where it 291 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: gets crazy. We don't get to say this often. There 292 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: is kind of good news kind of yeah, yeah, kind of. 293 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: I kind of just point out it's not just about 294 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: your loved ones. It's also about those who you don't know, 295 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: and about yourself. So this is a universal message we're 296 00:18:55,119 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: sending out into the ether them the ethosphere. I just 297 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: made that one up. Okay, trademark no Brown January. The 298 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: first thing you have to do is, uh question everything, 299 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: even your assumptions about information itself. Oh yeah, that's the 300 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 1: tricky one. Uh. This is one I've I've been guilty 301 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: of often for a long time. Information is treated increasingly 302 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: as identity. Uh this has always been the case, but 303 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: it's it's much more apparent now. There's a lot of research. 304 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: You bear it out. It's information, the information that you 305 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: prize or trust has become in many ways like a 306 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: tribal marker. Like you go to a football game you support, 307 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: you know, Atlanta United or Manchester or whatever. Uh, and 308 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: you were wearing the colors of your team because you 309 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: identify with it what people like sports. It might you Sorry, 310 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: it's that Kyle Moony sketch that like a jacket on 311 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: with his different sports balls all over it, and he's 312 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: talking to his roommate about how much he loves sports, 313 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: but he can't be specific about which sport. He's just 314 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: pointing randomly at all these That's kind of, you know, 315 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: that's sort of what this is. Some ways we can't 316 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: quite decide which sport we're supporting. Yeah, And so this 317 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that people who believe stuff might think is 318 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: whackadoo are unintelligent. Really, what it means is that they 319 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: have probably been worn down by a bunch of feedback loops, 320 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: by a cavalcade of honestly algorithmically targeted information that just 321 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: solidifies and reinforces their beliefs and likely tries to push 322 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: them towards other beliefs. And this happened, This is insidious. 323 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: This happens very subtly over time, and a lot of 324 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: very intelligent people have gone over to the to the 325 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 1: dark side of manipulating belief, and they're very very good 326 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: at it. Like it's kind of evil, but just objectively, 327 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: you know, you gotta admire it. You gotta admire the hustle. Uh, 328 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: and everyone is a target, so it's it's nuts to me. 329 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: I was doing some more reading on this and camera 330 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: where this point out. But you might run into someone 331 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: who says, I don't believe in evolution, but if you 332 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: ask them what the theory of evolution is, they can 333 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: probably explain it pretty well. They can explain the high 334 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: level basics. They're like, yeah, I know what it is, dude, 335 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: I did some research. I don't believe in it because 336 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: it contradicts another belief that I held, and that information 337 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: is identity to me. So I'm gonna stay with what 338 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: feels comfortable and known and stable. And oftentimes that belief 339 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: in this type of situation is something that relies more 340 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: on faith than it does on provable bits, you know, 341 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: are things that you can actually cross reference, And that's 342 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: sort of the difficulty with religion is that it's not 343 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: provable and it does rely on faith and different Folks 344 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: from different backgrounds that have grown up with different belief 345 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: systems are going to have different faith based systems in 346 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: place that are very hard to shake. A faith based 347 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: argument cannot be proven or discriminable, right, yeah, yeah, right, 348 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: And and you know we always say on this show 349 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 1: that your faith is your own right. It's definitely. It's 350 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: a personal choice. It's a choice about identity. So it's 351 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: not really in our remit to try to convince you otherwise. 352 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: We we want to be very respectful of that. Uh. 353 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: It's the only time that changes is if there is 354 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: an ideology that advocates harm to self or ears. And 355 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, our brains don't like the question beliefs, right, 356 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: especially if you are raised in a rigorous set of beliefs. 357 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: Any almost anyone who has left a strict religious movement, 358 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: by the way, they start with a common pattern. There's 359 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: like one aspect, one thing that doesn't make sense. Right. 360 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's the leader says do that, don't do this, 361 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: but the leader does this all the time. Right. Uh. 362 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's like, well we said this and this about 363 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: the dangers of money, but look what you know, Kraflo 364 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: Dollar is out here buying another jet right, what does 365 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: that mean to us? What does that mean about my faith? 366 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: And then that becomes a sparker, the first domino. Something 367 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: doesn't feel right, and soon enough there's a feedback loop, 368 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: a good one of further objective thought. But this can 369 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: go in other directions too, because those same feedback loops 370 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: can be weaponized to make someone go from saying you know, 371 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, like, uh, I don't like insert politician here, 372 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: all the way to it's time to attack the pizza spot. 373 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: It really can happen. Well, yeah, and I think it's 374 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: an as above, so below situation where it works the 375 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: exact opposite. With a strict religious group, if someone can 376 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: get you to believe that first pillar, right, that first 377 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: innocuous pillar of whatever the belief system is, it's way 378 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: more likely that you'll be into getting the next two 379 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: that are immediately below it, right. And then if you 380 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: get those two, it's just it's kind of increasing that 381 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: you're going to go down that rabbit hole or the 382 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: inverted pyramid. Uh. Then if you don't take up that 383 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: first pillar, yeah, well put man, Because like I think 384 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: this is where we see sunk post fallacy come in too, 385 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: because what's worse than your brain learning it's wrong learning 386 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: it's been wrong for a while, you know. That's why 387 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: one thing that a lot of cultic organizations do is 388 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: level out the information you are access you have access to, right, 389 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: you have to be initiated, You have to progress, usually 390 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: through the expenditure of time and money. Uh. You have 391 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: to earn the knowledge, pay for the knowledge, and some 392 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: sort of transaction. And by the time you get to 393 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: the really wild stuff, you have spent thousands of hours 394 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: and thousands of dollars on This is mission critical to 395 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: your brain for this stuff to be legit. It's also 396 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: like you know, boiling of a lobster, right, you do 397 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: it kind of low and slow while the lobster still alive, 398 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm sure it's horribly painful, but it's 399 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: also not as horribly painful as if they were dropping 400 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: it into the fully boiling pot right at once. So 401 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: by the time you get to the part where you're 402 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: in danger, um, it's a too late, and be you've 403 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: kind of been acclimated a little by little by little 404 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: to get to that and points so it seems less 405 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: crazy because up to that point you've had little bits 406 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: of things preparing you for that that big reveal. Right, 407 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: and so we're going to talk about how you can 408 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: use those same phenomena and those same tactics to maybe 409 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: do a little bit of good. And this is we 410 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: are not professional psychologists, nor psychiatrists psychiatrists. Excuse me, that's 411 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: how not professional, uh we are when it comes to psychiatry. 412 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: We're also not therapists, were not doctors. But these are 413 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: just some basic tactics that we hope you find helpful. Um, 414 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: big important note disclaimer, whatever you talk about this sort 415 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: of stuff, if someone you know is being radicalized into violence, 416 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: self harm, or crime, then it's your responsibility to do 417 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: your best to ensure their safety and the safety of others. 418 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: So all of the stuff we're about to talk about 419 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: assumes that you have reached out to a loft wind 420 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: or a person you know, to Matt's point, before they 421 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: hit that threshold, before there are gunshots at the pizza place. Yeah, 422 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: and before they ordered four crates of essential oil. Right, sorry, right, sorry, anybody, 423 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: I'm just joking. I mean, I love the name because 424 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: it implies the existence of just you know, worthless oil 425 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: like none. You don't need it oil. There's optional oil. Well, 426 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: I think it's more referring to the SMS. But I 427 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: just you know, I will say too, I love essential oils. 428 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: They go in my little atomizer thing, you know, that 429 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: makes my house smell likelyptus. Do I necessarily believe that 430 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: it's curing me of of potential cancer, you know, you know, 431 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: cleansing my chakras? No, but I do think it's nice. 432 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: And I think they're nice to have, and I think 433 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: they have a place and a lot of people's lives 434 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: outside of the more maybe woo woo aspects of them. Yeah, 435 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: and you know, maybe maybe we just don't have our 436 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: quantum vibrations calibrated correctly. Vibes, vibes before you dump your 437 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: life savings into thieves oil. You know, there's I like 438 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: that that sounds like it sounds like a scy Skyrim 439 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: level accusation or crime, you know, like the Guard and 440 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: White Run says, Wait, I know you You've been accused 441 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: of selling thieves oil. Yeah. So, with with this idea 442 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: of kind of stopping possibly out of control train of 443 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: thought and re routing it, right, it's a tall milkshake, 444 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: how do we inspire the change? Well, first, we know 445 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: the truth about how information is processed. Information is not 446 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: information to the human brain. Information is identity. So with that, 447 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: you have to realize that we shouldn't confront people immediately 448 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: off the jump. No one I feel like I think 449 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: I feel like we can say this confidently. No one 450 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: throughout history has had has heard somebody say what you 451 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: believe is stupid and bullshit and immediately gone, oh yeah, 452 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: good point. Yeah, I mean tell me more, but you 453 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: got me, you're happy like that doesn't work. You gotta 454 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: do the way of the open hands. We gotta shout 455 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: out every body, Socrates. It might work if it falls 456 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: in line with some of those preconceived ideas that our 457 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: brains are already kind of glommed onto. We certainly might 458 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: be much more willing to see somebody speaking our language. Uh, 459 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: and something that's sort of recognizable and recognizably a canvas, 460 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: and then we already believe and then without doing that 461 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: extra homework, be like, yo, yes, definitely that And that's 462 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: its own problem. I thought of one situation, ben where 463 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: it might work. The thing we're saying won't ever happen, 464 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: and I don't want to contradict, but I think there's one, 465 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: And I think it's during a um an interrogation after 466 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: someone has been caught doing something terribly wrong, where where 467 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: the person interrogating is just like you just got it 468 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: all wrong, pal, and like breaking that person down after 469 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: they're already incredibly I don't know, I think it might 470 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: work there. No, that's a really good point, and we 471 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: hope that you don't run into that situation, folks, because 472 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: those are never fun rooms. Uh they're they're never really 473 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: fun rooms. But uh but yeah, no, that's that's a 474 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: perfect example. And what you see us doing here cooking 475 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: live is we're we're throwing these ideas back and forth 476 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: with each other, and we're playing with them to see 477 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: what sticks and what what breaks off. This is why 478 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: when you when you talk with people, people love talking 479 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: about themselves. People also love be listened to, because it's 480 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: kind of a rare thing. Right, So I'm sorry, wet right, 481 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: So ask questions right, and and know that you can't 482 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: um I know that you shouldn't be ideally communicating via 483 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: devices because the majority of any conversation you have in 484 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: person uses nonverbal communication like six, So you want to 485 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: talk to him in person, don't get best. We can 486 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: to add some of those back into non verbal communication, 487 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: like with m O G S or a little little 488 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: signpost to let you know kind of what tone you 489 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: should be reading this thing in by you know, adding 490 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: a little extra sarcasm or little extra words that that 491 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: that that communicate your intention, or even like putting something 492 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: in bold or all caps. You know, it kind of 493 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: lets people know how you might have spoken it out loud. 494 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: But still it is miles away from the micro signals 495 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: that we can tune into, and we're actually talking to 496 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: someone looking them in the eye, hearing the timbre of 497 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: their voice. Not to mention the ability to be able 498 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: to tell whether someone is lying to you or not. 499 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: Just to be ultra clear, because I didn't get it 500 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: at first. I thought you made like language devices at first. 501 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: Been but like we're talking phones and computers and technology. Yeah, yeah, 502 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: read it, you know what I mean? Uh? And everybody, 503 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, you probably have someone in your life who 504 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: is kind of a late adopter of some common communication technology. 505 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: So just like maybe it's someone older in your life. 506 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: Remember how bad they are senday text? Right? You probably 507 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: remember the moment they discovered amoji or bitmoji. That's a 508 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: game changer. Now you're like, oh you are laughing. Okay, 509 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: all right, I get it. So you can avoid a 510 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: lot of that by being in person, because what we're 511 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: gonna talk about is all about building repport, because that's 512 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: what people are reacting to. If information is I then ay, 513 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: then information is also there for community, and that's that's 514 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: what we're hacking. Just a little bit, uh socratic method. 515 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: Ask questions, right, Ask open ended questions. Stay away from 516 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: the yes no answers like, well, you know, we can 517 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: go with politics, but frankly, it doesn't matter what the 518 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: subject is. Uh, we're at a we're at a family event. 519 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: What is it? Give me Thanksgiving? It's our annual arbor 520 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: Daid dance arts tournament, Shaman under the Sea. Wait, did 521 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: you say a sharks tournament? Annual charts tournament? Is that 522 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: like darts art tournament? All right, don't have been outlawed, 523 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: my good man. So this is gonna have to be 524 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: a fight club kind of underground even better, Yeah, because 525 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: now we're on the fringe of mainstream arts. Underd are 526 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: literally underground charts competition. A family member or a friend 527 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: who has you know, Jarton with us and says yeah, 528 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: it says the uh like hey myself, Yeah, but I 529 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: really didn't think Matt said Shark caused. Uh, someone who 530 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 1: has convinced the election any election again, it really doesn't matter. 531 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: They say, hey, you know what, the election was stolen. 532 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: You do not immediately say that's bill, look at the facts. 533 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: What you're telling that person is that you are not 534 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: part of their community and they have chosen violence, and 535 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: they will react as if you have done something violent instead. 536 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: I remember their person to you're talking to someone's very intelligent. 537 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: People always like to say they're they like to think 538 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: they're basing their opinion on facts. Very few people are 539 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: going to have a strongly held belief and tell you 540 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: they have no reason for that belief or they never 541 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: researched it. Right, They're gonna say I believe in this 542 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: because X y Z. So like if you take the 543 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: specifics out of it, especially if you're very emotionally invested 544 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: in oppositional viewpoint, think of it like someone went on 545 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: a road trip. You're asking about the road trip. So 546 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,879 Speaker 1: just be very baseline, say okay, election, I mean I know, 547 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: let's say I knew nothing about this, or someone over 548 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: there on the other side of the charts field knows 549 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: nothing about it. How would you describe this idea of 550 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: a stolen election, like in a few sentences, Like if 551 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: you just had to tell someone who is completely new 552 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: to this concept, what would you say. This is the 553 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: equivalent of asking someone, oh, okay, tell me about your 554 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,879 Speaker 1: road trip and getting an answer. I decided to drive 555 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: to Vegas or you know, banker main or something that's 556 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: non confrontational and people want to communicate what they believe. 557 00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: So you got that information, what's the next step. So 558 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: then once you have that information, Uh, then it's time 559 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: still still not ready to rest on your your laurels, 560 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: then it's time to start asking more questions and getting 561 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: a little more specific and remember to pepper in some 562 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: of your own reference points that you may have. I mean, 563 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: this is not an interrogation, you know, as you said, 564 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: this is a conversation. This is an attempt not even 565 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: to like educate. We're not we're not even like here 566 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: to try to, you know, force views down people's throats. 567 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: But it's about exposing people to views and not making 568 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: it come off as a lecture or as trying to 569 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: you know, um talk down to somebody, you know, because 570 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: ultimately we're never trying to do that if our heart's 571 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: in the right place. Nobody likes to be talked down to. 572 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: And if you're the kind of person that's constantly talking 573 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: down to people, then you're probably kind of a jerk. Um. 574 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: So remember to phrase what you're hearing back from your 575 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: friend in your own words. And again, don't think of 576 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: this as a rhetorical device. It's just honestly an effort 577 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: to let them know that you've heard them and that 578 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: you understand them, and that you are processing what they 579 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: said and not just waiting for your turn to talk. So, okay, 580 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: so what I'm hearing is you believe the election was 581 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: stolen because X, Y, Z, and And it doesn't have 582 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,919 Speaker 1: to be formal, it doesn't have to be any kind 583 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 1: of exact form. It's literally just listen to what they're 584 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: saying and then ask them questions about it. Yeah, and 585 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: the idea of rephrasing what someone is saying in your 586 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: own words does, like to your point, know, it shows 587 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: that you are getting the information right. And if you 588 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: include when you're peppering facts that might contradict a belief 589 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: or an aspect of it, you can also avoid conflict 590 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: by referring to these in a non confrontational way. Third 591 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 1: person kind of stuff is very easy here. Like our 592 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: sorry third party introduced a third party, you wouldn't say, well, 593 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: screw you, buddy, I think the election was legit. Instead 594 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 1: you could say, well, you know, it's interesting. Fox News 595 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: and CNN aren't usually on the same side of stuff, 596 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: and they seem to on on this one narrative about 597 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 1: the election. So what do I mean, what do you 598 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: think about that? It's not wholly different from the way 599 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,959 Speaker 1: couples therapists try to teach us to talk to our 600 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,720 Speaker 1: partners in order to find common ground. Rather than coming 601 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: at somebody saying you suck because you do this and 602 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: therefore you're dumb and wrong and I hate you. Instead 603 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,240 Speaker 1: you say when you do this, it makes me feel 604 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: this way. Um, how can we, you know, talk about 605 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: that and talk about maybe what's actually functionally going on here? 606 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: This is a little bit more of a personal version 607 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: between you know, partners, people that are very very close. 608 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: But it's not entirely dissimilar. What do you think, Matt, 609 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: I think it's very similar. Actually, Um, did you say 610 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: couples therapy couples therapy? Yeah? Or even just like you know, 611 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: if you have a therapist. They can teach you how 612 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: to get what you want. Um, you know, out of 613 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: relationships by not being confrontational. But it's not like you're 614 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: tricking somebody. You're you're genuinely just trying to get to 615 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: a commonplace where you understand. When you do this, it 616 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 1: makes me feel bad, Um, but it's not just necessarily mean. 617 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. Maybe there's something that 618 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: I can do to help you know better the situation. 619 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: So it's not putting it all on the other person 620 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: and saying, you big dumb idiot, you've got it all wrong, 621 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna tell you why and why you're wrong, 622 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: because that's never gonna work for anybody. Know, you're right, 623 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 1: and it should be known that you could take this 624 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: example and you know, flip it over a little bit. 625 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: Maybe you've got a friend that thinks, you know, the 626 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: other party has never done anything wrong, right, and you 627 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: are like, I always vote for this party because they're 628 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:51,320 Speaker 1: just better for X reasons. This whole thing around, right, 629 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: and you know, you just do the same exact things 630 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about. Yeah, Like if we go back to 631 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: that that thing we're saying, well, you are two sources. 632 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: It's interesting that they seem to agree. You've got to 633 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,320 Speaker 1: be ready for those sources to be called into question. 634 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: And this example is interesting because it touches on media, right, 635 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: So don't escalate. Your move now is to find points 636 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: of agreement. So literally use phrases with respectful intonation, like 637 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,439 Speaker 1: we can agree that blank and say we agree. Use 638 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: that inclusive language because when someone is a little tricky. 639 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 1: But here's the scoop, folks, When someone here's you saying 640 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 1: we agree in a casual manner repeatedly, don't overuse it, 641 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,880 Speaker 1: but repeatedly, then on an unconscious level, their brain begins 642 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 1: to accept that agreement as a base reality. You're building 643 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 1: that rapport. I know, I know. It's all manipulative unless 644 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: you're a really smart person and you see it. So 645 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,280 Speaker 1: it's like if this is where you gotta be careful 646 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: with because some of these techniques we're talking about can 647 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: become transparent very quickly. I think that's what why I 648 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: keep popping in saying like, it doesn't have to be 649 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: a technique, you know what I mean, Yes, these are 650 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: you can understand them as what they are. But also 651 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: if you're truly coming at it from an empathetic place, 652 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: which I always try to do. Then you're actually not 653 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: bullshitting somebody or trying to trick them. You're genuinely having 654 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,800 Speaker 1: a conversation um and and asking, and you're I'm interested. 655 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: I don't think you're an idiot. Obviously, maybe I do, 656 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: but usually in these situations, you're not coming at a 657 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: at a person where you think they're complete fool. You 658 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: think there must be a reason that you think this, 659 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,399 Speaker 1: and I'm interested in finding out what that is, right, 660 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: So that's like we're all in agreement there. What I'm 661 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 1: saying is like the end of what I'm saying here 662 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: is that because this runs the danger of being manipulative, 663 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,839 Speaker 1: and I'm not doing a bit there, but because it runs, 664 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: because it runs the danger of being that way, you 665 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:02,360 Speaker 1: should only say this stuff if you sincerely do agree people. 666 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: Is disrespectful because it is assuming that or it contains 667 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: within it the assumption that they are somehow intellectually inferior 668 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 1: to you, which is almost never the case. People are 669 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: very intelligent and should be spoken to as such. It's 670 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,399 Speaker 1: just a matter of respect. So, like you, we can 671 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: also agree with a statement without accepting it. You know, 672 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: you can say, okay, well, yeah, I'm with you there. 673 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: Mass media has a lot of problems. Just a few 674 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: companies own a ton of outlets. A lot of those 675 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,800 Speaker 1: companies depend on advertisers. That's just that's messed up, and 676 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 1: they'll probably agree with you because that it is true. Well, 677 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 1: it's also interesting to where you, like, let's say someone 678 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 1: is in support of a movement that has very vocal 679 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: supporters that are maybe members of pretty universally panned uh subculture, 680 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: like white supremacists. So you might say, how can you 681 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: support something that is supported by white supremacists, to which 682 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: they might say, well, they're not really white supremacists, to 683 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 1: which they might say, they're not what you're saying they are. 684 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 1: But that also does identify a common ground in that 685 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: like we we do agree that white supremacy is bad, 686 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: Nazis are bad. So then at this point the conversation 687 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: becomes around, well what are these people if not that? 688 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: And how are they misunderstood? The whole good people on 689 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,399 Speaker 1: both sides argument Again, it's the idea of like, now 690 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: we are in a space where we are learning together, right, 691 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 1: this is where we move to, This is where we 692 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 1: moved to advice. People don't just like feeling correct. People 693 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: also like teaching. People like to be credible authority figures. Right, 694 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: there's something to the myth of Prometheus that made it 695 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,439 Speaker 1: stick around so much. Folks like to bring the fire 696 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 1: to others and or the fire of knowledge. Excuse me. So, 697 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: you know, if you ask someone in a respectful and 698 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: please sincere way, just be curious, you know, like Ted 699 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 1: Lasso says, just be curious. Uh, ask these folks what 700 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,879 Speaker 1: sources they might recommend, Like hey, when, okay, so if 701 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 1: CNN and Fox and insert whomever here, if they're not 702 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,719 Speaker 1: a good source, like where, what would you recommend? Like 703 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,279 Speaker 1: what sources do you follow? You know, who do you 704 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 1: in whom do you put your trust? Because I I 705 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: want to learn more? Right, and only say it if 706 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: you meet it and be ready to look into it. 707 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: I mean they'll tell you. Don't worry again. People have 708 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 1: reasons and for believing what they do, and you can 709 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: narrow the scope to you can say, can you recommend 710 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: some specific things? Right? What is that? Like what's an 711 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: episode of that thing? What's an article from this thing? 712 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,320 Speaker 1: What should I read? Watch or whatever? Don't say whatever? 713 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: But like you know what stood out to you in 714 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: particular about this, or maybe what do you wish more 715 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 1: people knew about this? Right? Uh, this is where if 716 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: you are not being condescending, you're still being very human. 717 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: This is where you're getting to a really cool place 718 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: just in any conversation. It doesn't matter what the conversation is. 719 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,200 Speaker 1: Maybe we take a break for a word from our sponsors, 720 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: and then we'll talk a little bit about just the 721 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: nature of rapport and our interactions. All right, we're back. Uh, 722 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,279 Speaker 1: let's assume it's going to plan. Right, what have we done. 723 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 1: We've engaged, we're talking. We're practicing empathy. Yes, yeah, we 724 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: took that on right, and we're doing it sincerely. Uh. 725 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: And we're also being the most beautiful part of a 726 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 1: conversation everybody dreams of this dancing partner, the active listener. 727 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,400 Speaker 1: You're referencing yourself in a supportive, honest way. You're giving 728 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: your conversation partner the ability to feel like a source 729 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: of information to be listened to and not judged. And 730 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,719 Speaker 1: now you can start sussing out some spece sifics. Right, 731 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: you've earned that. Now, if there is a conspiracy off, 732 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,360 Speaker 1: what who's responsible? Like and why what do they want? Ultimately? 733 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: What's their end game? Uh? And then you could maybe 734 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 1: do some thought experiments like, Okay, I'm learning a lot. 735 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 1: Let's look at it on the other side. For people 736 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 1: who don't believe this, what what is there version of 737 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 1: the thing right for? For people who believe For people 738 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,280 Speaker 1: who believe there was absolutely nothing weird about the JFK assassination. 739 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,880 Speaker 1: Why not? That's a that's a very popular one. What 740 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,359 Speaker 1: what leads them to that conclusion? Let's try to put 741 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 1: ourselves in their heads, you know, see what they think 742 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: about it. That part might get dismissed, that might get 743 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 1: totally just swatted away. That's fine, and just nod and 744 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,359 Speaker 1: leave it there. You know. The key is that you 745 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 1: are showing you remain open and objectively interested in learning more. Yeah, 746 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 1: And I would say it's also place to just continue 747 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,880 Speaker 1: asking questions. I mean, you can there can be some 748 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,920 Speaker 1: really interesting conversation right there if you talk about the 749 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 1: opposing viewpoint. I feel like there's some great avenues you 750 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,240 Speaker 1: could take that conversation down to. But yeah, I agreed. 751 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: I mean, here's what you're doing at this point is 752 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,239 Speaker 1: only partially effect finding mission. The bigger goal isn't to 753 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,920 Speaker 1: present your version of events yet, you know, not in 754 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 1: a declarative statement. It's it's to build that sense of rapport, 755 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,680 Speaker 1: that sense of communion. People are more receptive to ideas 756 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,160 Speaker 1: when they feel like they have a personal and positive 757 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,720 Speaker 1: connection to the source of those ideas. That's a huge 758 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: piece of this. That's why you hear people complaining and saying, well, 759 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 1: you know, this person in my life only watches this 760 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 1: one channel, right, that's where they get everything, and they'll 761 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 1: dismiss stuff if it comes from another source. It's because 762 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: humans often base their conclusions not on the content the message, 763 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,840 Speaker 1: but on how they feel about that their relationship to 764 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: the source of the information. Kimmer the poet who said, Um, 765 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,399 Speaker 1: people will forget what you said to them, but they'll 766 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: always remember how you made them feel. Oh that's good, 767 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 1: my angelo, I want to say. Yeah, certainly sounds like 768 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:24,279 Speaker 1: something she might say. It's very thoughtful observation. People will 769 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,120 Speaker 1: remember how they felt about you saying that, Ben, but 770 00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 1: they won't remember what you said. That's so weird to 771 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:35,359 Speaker 1: think about. It's kind of true, right, Um, Well, because 772 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,680 Speaker 1: if they make you feel bad, then you're probably going 773 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,879 Speaker 1: to immediately dismiss what they're saying and put it out 774 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:47,680 Speaker 1: of your head. Um, which means about what they're saying here, 775 00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,920 Speaker 1: it is I've learned that people will forget what you said, 776 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 1: people will forget what you did, but people will never 777 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: forget how you made them feel. It's powerful. I think 778 00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,640 Speaker 1: it might be a bit of a broad right because 779 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:06,160 Speaker 1: we do remember things that other other living things do. Um. 780 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,839 Speaker 1: But yeah, so you're finding this sense of rapport. So 781 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:15,480 Speaker 1: now we've established ourselves, hopefully as a genuine, friendly and 782 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: curious sounding board. No one's yelled, no one has committed 783 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: to anything they don't believe right to try to manipulate 784 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 1: a conversation not being condescending. If anything, the main risk 785 00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,640 Speaker 1: you have here is being like one of those annoying 786 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,399 Speaker 1: kids playing the Y game. You guys know the Y game, right. 787 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:39,360 Speaker 1: It's like when when a kid figures out the word why, 788 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:44,319 Speaker 1: and every answer leads to another why, until eventually you 789 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,360 Speaker 1: find yourself in a ridiculous, surreal situation trying to explain 790 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,839 Speaker 1: stuff that you never really thought about. Yeah, or like 791 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,960 Speaker 1: a Homer and Bart Simpson choking scenario, and then all 792 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 1: of a sudden you're doing a bud Dry commercial. Why 793 00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,840 Speaker 1: ask why just get drunk the race that race at 794 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,319 Speaker 1: all from your memory? But dry lee but dry uh so. 795 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,759 Speaker 1: Uh so now you've kind of now we've earned the 796 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,080 Speaker 1: right to pose questions that might touch on, you know, 797 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: the contradictions right the orwelly and double think of something. 798 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,840 Speaker 1: It's really cool to not start replies with negative or 799 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,560 Speaker 1: oppositional phrases. Someone tells you something, they're trusting you to 800 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,439 Speaker 1: tell them, hopping in and saying but what about that? 801 00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:34,160 Speaker 1: Ha got you that that's gonna ruin this um, this 802 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: interaction you've been building, and you can say, okay, well, 803 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,759 Speaker 1: what what do we think about this blah blah blah thing? Right? Like, 804 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,719 Speaker 1: okay Earth, Uh, you're right, most people are not astronauts. 805 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:52,680 Speaker 1: I've never seen the planet from space in person? So 806 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,960 Speaker 1: what what will we say about this following thing? Because 807 00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,040 Speaker 1: that kind of what about is I'm you're talking about 808 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,600 Speaker 1: is is a very transparent tactic. It's often used by 809 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,680 Speaker 1: politicians when they're asked straight questions they don't want to answer. 810 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: They'll just kind of deflect it by talking about this 811 00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:11,320 Speaker 1: other thing you know that like either is is antithetical 812 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,120 Speaker 1: to what they're being asked or is an example of 813 00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,440 Speaker 1: something else that is related to the question, but it 814 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,399 Speaker 1: allows them to avoid actually having to give an answer. Um, 815 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,680 Speaker 1: and it is is very transparent and very frustrating. Well, 816 00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: I hear you, but I'm just to clarify an apologies 817 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: if I wasn't coming off correct there. I'm not talking 818 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:35,680 Speaker 1: about what about is um as the rhetorical tactic. I'm 819 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,840 Speaker 1: talking about bringing in, like, now that we have a 820 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,920 Speaker 1: base understanding this belief, what do we think about the 821 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,799 Speaker 1: other the the other side really like the you know, 822 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,160 Speaker 1: the earth flat The flat earth thing is probably not 823 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,080 Speaker 1: the best example, but we could say, well, what about 824 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: the folks who maintain it is round? What do we 825 00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,480 Speaker 1: know about them? How do we react? I see, but 826 00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,520 Speaker 1: this at some point, you know, the person you're talking 827 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,840 Speaker 1: to may shut down. It might not even be a 828 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,279 Speaker 1: big deal. You're just having a conversation. The conversations go 829 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,560 Speaker 1: to other topics all the time, you know what I mean? 830 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,640 Speaker 1: Someone belches loudly at the Thanksgiving table. Uh, there's a 831 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,719 Speaker 1: new round of charts. You know, there's other stuff. Uh. 832 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,600 Speaker 1: You don't want to be the person who like is 833 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,080 Speaker 1: coming off as some weird investigative reporter on a mission 834 00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:33,120 Speaker 1: to prove Bigfoot exists or doesn't whatever. Um, you just 835 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,279 Speaker 1: it sounds simple, but I mean you're really we're right, 836 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,040 Speaker 1: there is a sort of uh it's sort of the 837 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,040 Speaker 1: best practice to keep it cash, you know what I mean, 838 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,840 Speaker 1: Like keep it in the realm of like a conversation 839 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,560 Speaker 1: rather than a debate, you know, rather than getting really heated, 840 00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,680 Speaker 1: because then it starts to feel adversarial, and then a 841 00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,879 Speaker 1: lot of these kind of kinder, gentler methods of of 842 00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: of getting the stuff sussed out sort of go out 843 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,279 Speaker 1: the window, especially again when alcohol is involved. Have you 844 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:08,719 Speaker 1: had conspiracy conspiratorial like arguments? Maybe not arguments, but I mean, 845 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,600 Speaker 1: you know, if you're talking with someone that just really 846 00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,600 Speaker 1: has a completely you know, opposing view to something that 847 00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:18,759 Speaker 1: I believe, and I already think that it's kind of 848 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,360 Speaker 1: just absolutely disproven and really hard to have a conversation 849 00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,400 Speaker 1: with that person about it, it can very quickly become 850 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,719 Speaker 1: a a pping contest where you're literally just you know, 851 00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,719 Speaker 1: trying to shut that person down as they're trying to 852 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,440 Speaker 1: shut you down, and it's just like beating your head 853 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,080 Speaker 1: against the wall or banging two bricks together. You know, 854 00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,960 Speaker 1: it's it's only going to result in negativity that's going 855 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,720 Speaker 1: to outflow outward, you know, to everyone else. And then 856 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,120 Speaker 1: it's it's basically like a like a weird boxing match. 857 00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,520 Speaker 1: You know, it's not a conversation at all at that point. Um. 858 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:55,120 Speaker 1: But that again requires both sides to to approach the 859 00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,160 Speaker 1: stuff gently, and you can't always depend on that happening. 860 00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,000 Speaker 1: A lot of times, your Uncle Steve is gonna come 861 00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,799 Speaker 1: hard at you right from the start. So it's your 862 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,000 Speaker 1: job to sort of mellow it out and diffuse it 863 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,160 Speaker 1: a little bit, you know, and not meet that energy, 864 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,960 Speaker 1: you know, instead dial it back a little bit. And 865 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,319 Speaker 1: then maybe Uncle Steve will dial it back a little 866 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: bit too. I hope he does. With the citation of alcohol, 867 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,560 Speaker 1: and there a couple of times I'm now for being 868 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,320 Speaker 1: a picture in my head of of some Uncle Steve 869 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,719 Speaker 1: who was like totally reasonable. But then you know, the 870 00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,919 Speaker 1: guy's had six beers and he's like and another thing, 871 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:37,440 Speaker 1: and he's arts in his hand. He's got jarts. God forbid, 872 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,880 Speaker 1: charts are involved. First of all, those should be outdoor 873 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,839 Speaker 1: activities only. Do not even bring those hand to the 874 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,840 Speaker 1: to the to the dinner table room. Oh man, guys, 875 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,919 Speaker 1: I just quickly I had a conversation not long ago 876 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,640 Speaker 1: with someone who was adamant that there was, in fact 877 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,279 Speaker 1: a firmament above where we were standing when we were 878 00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,440 Speaker 1: having the conversation that there was, you know, a biblical 879 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,000 Speaker 1: concept like a dome above us. But I found that 880 00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,120 Speaker 1: it was a fascinating conversation because I knew so very 881 00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:11,600 Speaker 1: little about specific belief structures within UM. I guess that 882 00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,960 Speaker 1: system when you you know, and and this person as 883 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,359 Speaker 1: an individual, they have their own beliefs, but what they 884 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,080 Speaker 1: believed was there and how it functioned. And I found 885 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:25,120 Speaker 1: that I was learning a ton just by having this conversation. 886 00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,640 Speaker 1: And there was no reason for me to try and 887 00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,640 Speaker 1: change this person's beliefs. It was just it was this 888 00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:34,240 Speaker 1: kind of exact situation that we're describing here. But it 889 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,719 Speaker 1: can also be an enriching thing that you can do 890 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,040 Speaker 1: for yourself. I just want to put that out there. 891 00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:44,280 Speaker 1: I love that man, and you know, uh, We've always 892 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:48,400 Speaker 1: pointed out you especially met the need to recognize the 893 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,319 Speaker 1: humanity and others. That's the key thing. UM thinking a 894 00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,520 Speaker 1: lot about this. Really, one of the big takeaways is 895 00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,200 Speaker 1: leave the door open. Don't don't force people to do 896 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,960 Speaker 1: stuff you're you may be entering in a situation where 897 00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,319 Speaker 1: information is bubbled, and you have to be aware that 898 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:09,480 Speaker 1: you probably live in an information bubble yourself. This is 899 00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,040 Speaker 1: like the key thing that keeps sticking with me. We 900 00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:17,239 Speaker 1: have to remember that this person, if you're talking to them, 901 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,360 Speaker 1: they're probably important to you. And you may not vibe 902 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,759 Speaker 1: on things like ghost or elections or the shape of 903 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,759 Speaker 1: the planet or whatever. But the truth is, when you 904 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,800 Speaker 1: think about it, you probably do agree on the majority 905 00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:34,239 Speaker 1: of all the other stuff you've experienced. You agree so 906 00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,080 Speaker 1: much that you never talk about it because you're that 907 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:41,200 Speaker 1: on the same page. So this one to two percent 908 00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:47,520 Speaker 1: difference in overall opinion about life, it is far outweighed 909 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: by the sheer amount of stuff that you and and 910 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,640 Speaker 1: probably the rest of humanity connect on. You know, and 911 00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,839 Speaker 1: it's easy to forget that, but it's important to remember it. 912 00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 1: You could also just not everything has to be like 913 00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,600 Speaker 1: some Frost Nixon conversation. You could just say, hey, do 914 00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,480 Speaker 1: you want to go bowling? Right? Do you want to go, like, 915 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, go tubing. If you're lucky enough to 916 00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,799 Speaker 1: live near a water source, just go hang somewhere. You 917 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,000 Speaker 1: have to talk about this because every time you're hanging. 918 00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:22,800 Speaker 1: You're becoming an established alternative viewpoint, and you are you 919 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,840 Speaker 1: are helping expand I don't want to say break expand 920 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:33,000 Speaker 1: that information horizon just a bit tubings for lips man. Man, 921 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,080 Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. Yeah, I'm joking. But it's also, like 922 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,280 Speaker 1: you know it, you'd be surprised at how many people 923 00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:43,720 Speaker 1: could turn the most innocuous topics back around to these adversarial, 924 00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, kind of two bricks pounding together situations. I 925 00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,760 Speaker 1: am speaking from experience, like specifically with with my mom, 926 00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,800 Speaker 1: Like it was just I had to do everything in 927 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,840 Speaker 1: my power to not have those conversations because it was 928 00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,960 Speaker 1: just never gonna be good. But she's such a stubborn 929 00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,120 Speaker 1: person that she always find a way to reel it 930 00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:08,840 Speaker 1: back to those uncomfortable topics to which point, at which 931 00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:10,760 Speaker 1: point I would have to just kind of walk away, 932 00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,160 Speaker 1: which is also an option that is also an option 933 00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:17,440 Speaker 1: for for all those out there you don't have to 934 00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:20,640 Speaker 1: engage if things get a little too heated, Uh, sometimes 935 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,800 Speaker 1: it is best to walk away. Yeah, and and give 936 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:28,680 Speaker 1: everybody some time and remember the big important thing again 937 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:32,560 Speaker 1: is that this person probably has your back. The vast 938 00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:36,360 Speaker 1: majority of stuff you agree on and so much so 939 00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,720 Speaker 1: again you don't talk about it, but this the cool 940 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:41,919 Speaker 1: thing is, and maybe we hit this to the cool 941 00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,360 Speaker 1: thing is that along the way, if you're sincere and 942 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:49,880 Speaker 1: you're spending extended amounts of time, not just one conversation, 943 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,600 Speaker 1: uh with someone that disagrees with youth, and you're going 944 00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:58,560 Speaker 1: to learn new information yourself along the way, and that's 945 00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,760 Speaker 1: that's invaluable. Uh. And with that, I don't know. I mean, 946 00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,360 Speaker 1: this stuff is tough. It's one of those things that 947 00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:09,320 Speaker 1: it's very easy to say or suggest some ideas about 948 00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:13,360 Speaker 1: how to approach these things, but actually doing it it 949 00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,120 Speaker 1: can be really challenging. It can be uphill. So I 950 00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,040 Speaker 1: don't know about you guys, but I think would be 951 00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:21,160 Speaker 1: great to hear some stories from our fellow conspiracy realist 952 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,320 Speaker 1: who might have had similar experiences. I'm on the other 953 00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,800 Speaker 1: side sometimes I'm like, I think the JFK assassination was 954 00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,000 Speaker 1: a cover up, you know, oh a million. But that's 955 00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,080 Speaker 1: where I'm coming from. You know, let me hear me out. 956 00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,680 Speaker 1: We all have our own our own, our own stories, 957 00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,200 Speaker 1: our own you know, everything that led us to where 958 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:40,720 Speaker 1: we are now. And I think a lot of this 959 00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,960 Speaker 1: truly is about kind of being more connected to people 960 00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,400 Speaker 1: and figuring out what it is about them that led 961 00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:49,840 Speaker 1: them to have that opinion, not necessarily to shut down 962 00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,960 Speaker 1: set opinion, to let us know. What are some methods 963 00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:57,240 Speaker 1: that you employ? You know, in these kind of uncomfortable exchanges, 964 00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,520 Speaker 1: you can get to us in the usual Internet spots 965 01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:04,440 Speaker 1: of note, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube where we're conspiracy stuff, 966 01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:09,400 Speaker 1: conspiracy stuff show on TikTok and Instagram. Hey, speaking of 967 01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,840 Speaker 1: those last two, why don't we do something a little 968 01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:15,360 Speaker 1: different with this one. If you've had a situation like 969 01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:17,560 Speaker 1: this that you want to tell us about, why don't 970 01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:21,840 Speaker 1: you make a video on Instagram or TikTok and let 971 01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,680 Speaker 1: us know about it. I do it? Do they add us? Guys? 972 01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:26,840 Speaker 1: I don't know how it works. Yeah, I think you can. 973 01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:28,920 Speaker 1: You can tag us in the video and then we 974 01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,400 Speaker 1: can do a video response. We started toying with that 975 01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:35,480 Speaker 1: recently with some of the Instagram stories and and reels 976 01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,760 Speaker 1: and stuff we've been doing, so I think that's really fun. 977 01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,480 Speaker 1: We have been figuring trying to figure out more interactive 978 01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:42,960 Speaker 1: ways to do these kinds of to have these kinds 979 01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,680 Speaker 1: of conversation, So give it a try. Part of this 980 01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,080 Speaker 1: experiment are we gonna do that live thing in Atlanta. 981 01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:52,040 Speaker 1: We're gonna try to hang out at our at our 982 01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:56,080 Speaker 1: local chickens. Definitely set it on the books. And also 983 01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:58,360 Speaker 1: we've been toying with the idea of doing some more 984 01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,600 Speaker 1: maybe Instagram lives as well, So let us know that's 985 01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,920 Speaker 1: something you'd be interested in, um, because we have a 986 01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:05,960 Speaker 1: good time doing and we'd we'd love to hear from you. 987 01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:08,360 Speaker 1: Another way you can get in touch with us is 988 01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,360 Speaker 1: with a telephone call. Yes, our number is one eight 989 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:15,120 Speaker 1: three three st d w y t K. When you 990 01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,840 Speaker 1: call in, you've got three minutes to leave a voicemail. 991 01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,280 Speaker 1: The clock is ticking. Give yourself a cool nickname and 992 01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:25,400 Speaker 1: say whatever you want. Stories are great, really like seriously, 993 01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,560 Speaker 1: stories are probably the best, especially if we can just 994 01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,640 Speaker 1: listen to it together on the air. Send us your stories. 995 01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:35,800 Speaker 1: We also love episodes, suggestions, or just your thoughts, whatever 996 01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:39,440 Speaker 1: you're feeling about this episode or another one. Please do 997 01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:41,800 Speaker 1: include if we can use your name and voice on 998 01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,680 Speaker 1: one of our listener mail episodes or elsewhere on the show. 999 01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:47,520 Speaker 1: And that's it. Hey, if you've got more to say 1000 01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,840 Speaker 1: than can fit in that message, why not instead to 1001 01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:53,360 Speaker 1: send us a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy 1002 01:01:53,480 --> 01:02:14,680 Speaker 1: at i heeart radio dot com. Yah. Stuff they don't 1003 01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:17,200 Speaker 1: want you to know. Is a production of I heart Radio. 1004 01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:19,800 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 1005 01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:22,760 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1006 01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:23,600 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.