1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome back to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: is a Vaald episode. It is Saturday, after all. This 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: is going to be the first of our two parter 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: on hooves. Yes, this is going to be Hoo's Part one, 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: which originally published six ' eight twenty twenty three. 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and today we are going to 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 3: begin a look at the hoof, the animal hoof, specifically 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 3: the horse hoof. Rob how did you get interested in this? 13 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: Well, I was in New York last week with my family, 14 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: went to the American Natural History Museum, and I was 15 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: looking at fossils and bones, and I was captain by 16 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: some of the some of the bones of the horse 17 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 1: and started thinking about the hoof and just how strange 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: the hoof is. Yet yet at the same time, we 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: kind of take it for granted, because even if you 20 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,559 Speaker 1: are not a person who lives among horses and cares 21 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: for horses, horses are everywhere in our imagery and our 22 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: iconography and our entertainment. You can scarcely be a video 23 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: game player at all without having mounted a horse or 24 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: lost a horse, or accidentally driven a horse off a 25 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: cliff or up a wall at some point. So I 26 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: was really taken by this, Like I had not really 27 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: in my life set aside any time to just consider 28 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: the utter weirdness of the horse hoof. 29 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 3: I almost feel like the weirdness of the horse hoof 30 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 3: is embodied in the sound of the horse galloping and 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 3: how different that is from the sound of the movement 32 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 3: and most other animals you'd think about. 33 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's like the drumming of fingers on 34 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: a table, right, Like that's that's that's an attempting direction 35 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: to go in anyway. Yeah, I feel like it's it's 36 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: all too easy to take the hoof for granted, even 37 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: in literature. You know, I was thinking, well, we can, 38 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: we can kick off this episode with a nice little 39 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: quote or a little reading from something that kind of captures, 40 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: you know, our current level of fascination with the hoof, 41 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: But I really wasn't able to find much. Now again, 42 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: horses and hoofs are just throughout human literature. They're everywhere, 43 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: and there are you know a lot of literary references 44 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: to the to hooves and the sound of hooves. One 45 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: poem in particular, in particular that I found that I 46 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: ultimately didn't like well enough to feature in the Cold Open, 47 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 1: but it's still notable, is The Hoofs of the Horses 48 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: by William Henry Ogilvy, who lived eighteen sixty nine through 49 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three. I don't know if you're familiar with 50 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: this poem, Joe, but it's just all about how much 51 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: you just absolutely love the cadence of horse hooves. 52 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 3: No, I was not familiar with this poem before you 53 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 3: did share it with me. It is it's an almost 54 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 3: comical level of appreciation for horse hooves, an attitude very 55 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: much of I'll stop thinking about the sound of horse 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 3: hooves when I'm dead, or maybe I won't when I'm dead. 57 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 3: I'll still dream of them even in the grave. It's 58 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 3: also it goes with the F plural. I looked it 59 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 3: up to see is there any difference hooves versus hoofs, 60 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 3: and it seems like no, I both have been used 61 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 3: in English. I think hoofs with the F plural is 62 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: more archaic. 63 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: Usually this is one of those poems that you know, 64 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: sometimes I read a really good rhyming poem with great cadence. 65 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm like, why don't we rhyme our 66 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: poems anymore? You know, all poems should rhyme. This is great. 67 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: This is the opposite end of the spectrum for me. 68 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: Like this one's just kind of goofy, Like it starts 69 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: off the hoofs of the horses. Oh, witching and sweet 70 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: is the music Earth steals from the ironshod feet, Yeah, 71 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: et cetera. So it's not to my liking, but I 72 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: can understand where someone else might love it as much 73 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: as this man loved horse hoofs. 74 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 3: Well, it also commits the ultimate sin of rhyming above 75 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 3: with love. That's you can't you can't come back from that. 76 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: But again, this is not the only account of hoofs 77 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: or mention of hoofs in literature. Shakespeare writes of horses 78 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: quote printing their proud hoofs in the Receiving Earth. Other 79 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: quotes speak of the violence of the hoof, a thing 80 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: that imprints the soil or even the flesh of those 81 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: fallen in war. Here's a bit from the Jackery, a 82 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: fragment by Sidney Lanier who lived eighteen forty two through 83 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty one, midst of the crowd, Old Grisgrion, the maimed, 84 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: a wretched wreck that fate had floated out from the 85 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: deer storm of battle at Potchi. A living man whose 86 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: larger moiety was dead and buried on the battlefield, A 87 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: grizzly trunk, without arms or legs and scarred with hoof 88 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 1: cuts of or cheek and brow lay in his wicker cradle, smiling. 89 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: And then later on in the same scene, the protagonist 90 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: comments that quote, there is no face of man or 91 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: woman here, but showeth print of the hard hoof of war. 92 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 3: Well, I think that's fair. As much as we can 93 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 3: admire hoofs from afar, I don't think you want to 94 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 3: come into contact with one by way of force. 95 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: No, no, absolutely you didn't absolutely do not want to 96 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: be kicked by a horse on one level, just for 97 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: sheer strength and power of said kick or or the 98 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: weight of said step. But also yeah, the hoof as well, 99 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: explain is it's not an instrument you want make in 100 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: contact with your body with force or speed. Now, there, 101 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: of course many references to the hoof and the works 102 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: of Cormick McCarthy, The none that I could remember or 103 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: search up that really goes in deep on the weirdness 104 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: and wonder of the horse hoof. Still, here's a favorite 105 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: from Blood Meridian quote under the hoof of the horses, 106 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: the alabaster sand shaped itself in whorls, strangely symmetric, like 107 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: iron filings in a field. And these shapes flared and 108 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: drew back again, resonating upon that harmonic ground, and then 109 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: turning to swirl away over the plaia, as if the 110 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: very sediment of things contained yet some residue of scentience, 111 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: as if in the transit of those riders were a 112 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: thing so profoundly terrible as to register even to the 113 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 1: uttermost granulation of reality. Wow. Yeah, so great line. But also, 114 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: you know, Cormack doesn't result doesn't really go in hard 115 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: on just how weird it is that horses are strange 116 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: mammals running around on highly evolved like finger bones, Like 117 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: there's a there's a weirdness to the hoof that you 118 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: know that he doesn't he even doesn't get into because 119 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: it's just such a part of, say, the tapestry of 120 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: the American West. You know, in the case of his Westerns, 121 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: it's also possible that I'm forgetting some some key line 122 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 1: and another of his book, maybe the you know, the 123 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: All the Pretty Horses or one of its sequels. But nothing, 124 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: nothing came to mind or in search when I was 125 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: thinking about it just the other day. 126 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 3: Well, maybe here is an amazing place to start if 127 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 3: you want to consider the more granular anatomy of the 128 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 3: horse's foot and the hoof. So look look at your 129 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 3: hands there, you know, you get human hands and extend 130 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 3: the middle fingers on both of your hands. Obviously not 131 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 3: if you're. 132 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: In prospectible thing. 133 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, in you know, discreetly extend those two middle fingers. 134 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 3: These are the analogous bone structures that evolved in the 135 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 3: horse to become the part of the horse's body that 136 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: makes contact with the ground. So when horses gallop, they 137 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 3: are galloping on adapted versions of your middle fingers. So 138 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 3: you just imagine run out that middle, your two middle 139 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 3: fingers in front, your two middle toes in the back. 140 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 3: Those got really thick, really strong. Everything else kind of 141 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 3: shrank back and receded in a way. We can talk 142 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 3: later on about whether it makes sense to say that 143 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 3: the horse still has those other fingers in some way 144 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 3: or not. But basically that the part of the leg 145 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 3: that is making contact with the ground and supporting the 146 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 3: weight of the horse is the middle finger. 147 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is just absolutely bonkers when you stop and 148 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: think about. 149 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 3: It, it is. And the genus to which horses belong 150 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: is unique in this regard among the ungulates. So all 151 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 3: of the four legged vertebrates on earth that live on 152 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 3: land share a common ancestor that had five toes on 153 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 3: each foot had four legs and five toes on each foot. 154 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 3: That's our heritage, and we walk around on two legs now. 155 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 3: But we are still we're still part of that evolutionary lineage. 156 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: We still have five fingers on our hands and five 157 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 3: toes on our feet to show for it. But some 158 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 3: of our cousins in this lige have undergone more radical 159 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 3: transformations in the bone structure of these distal regions of 160 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 3: the limbs, the ends of each limb. Hippopotamuses, for example, 161 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 3: have four toes. Rhinoceroses and tapers have three toes. Camels, deer, sheep, goats, 162 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 3: and cattle have two toes. But there is only one 163 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 3: group of animals existing today that has evolved to have 164 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: a single toe that contacts the ground on each foot. 165 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 3: And that is horses, or more precisely, the evolutionary group 166 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 3: to which modern horses belong, which is the genus equus, 167 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 3: which includes horses, zebras, and donkeys. And the scientific term 168 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 3: for having only one toe is monodactyly. So these monodactyls 169 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 3: are out there running around on their middle fingers. That 170 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 3: when you hear hoof beats, that's what you're hearing, the 171 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 3: middle fingers. 172 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: And you know, again, this is super weird and glorious, 173 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it would be a mistake 174 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: to think of this as a kind of simplification, you know, 175 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: because the horse hoof we'll be discussing here is anything, 176 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: but it's a complex structure composed of hard cornified structures, 177 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: living tissues, tendons, ligaments, and more. You know, they are 178 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: the various bones we're going to be discussing. We should, 179 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, also not make the mistake of overestimating the 180 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: strength of the hoof, because yes, it's a highly evolved 181 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: anatomical feature that serves a horse very well in its 182 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: natural environment, but they are still susceptible to injury and illness, 183 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 1: and you know, the ravages of aging plus domestication by 184 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: humans has of course augmented the horse's natural environment and 185 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: also changed the sort of regular wear and tear that 186 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: they might endure on set hoofs. So to just doing 187 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do is going to provide kind of 188 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: an overview of the different parts of the main outer 189 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: and inner parts of the horse hoof of the foot 190 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: of the horse. Not in a way that will just 191 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: completely bombard the listener with horse terminology, but hopefully get 192 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: across some of the complexity here. And if you are 193 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: a horse person, and I don't know, maybe you're listening 194 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: to this podcast whilst you attend to the hoofs of 195 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: a horse, well you might have some added information to 196 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: write into us about. If you're not a horse person, 197 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: then I think you might find some of the terminology 198 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: kind of surprising, I know, not being a horse person myself. There. 199 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: I remember the first time I read Cornick McCarthy's Blood Meridian, 200 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: there was there was a bit that really threw me 201 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: for a curve. It goes as follows. Quote he got 202 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: down and drew up the horse's leg. The frog of 203 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: the hoof was split and bloody, and the animal's shoulder quivered. 204 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: He let the hoof down the sun was about two 205 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: hours high, and now there was dust on the horizon. 206 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 3: I don't know what that means, but it doesn't sound good. 207 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 3: The frog of the hoof. 208 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: Yep, the frog of the hoof. So the frog is 209 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: a is a key part of the outer anatomy of 210 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: the horse's foot. This is a wedge shaped mass on 211 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: the bottom of the horse's foot that you know, I 212 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: suppose kind of looks like a dark frog. According to 213 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: Robert C. McClure at all in a paper titled Functional 214 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: Anatomy of the horse Foot. This was for the University 215 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: of Missouri, the frog is one of the flexible parts 216 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: of the hoof's external structures. It normally makes contact with 217 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: the ground first and then it kind of like pushes 218 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: into the digital cushion, an internal mass of flexible material 219 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: above the frog that contributes to the formation of the 220 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,479 Speaker 1: heels and serves as one of the primary shock absorbers 221 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: in the horse's foot. 222 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 3: This is an interesting balance to observe with the hoof 223 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 3: here in that it has a so the outer mass 224 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 3: of the hoof that you will have observed before, you know, 225 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 3: the hard part is a hard carat in structure, and 226 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 3: yet the hoof also has to remain somewhat springy and flexible. 227 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 3: You don't want it to be like a piece of 228 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 3: concrete that might be really hard but insufficient impact, is 229 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 3: rigid and cracks. 230 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, again, it would be a gross simplification to 231 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: think of a horse as just running around on like 232 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: wooden stilt legs, you know, like that. Its hooves are 233 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: just like solid things. It's a lot more complicated than that. 234 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: Now you might be wondering, well, why do they call 235 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: it a frog? You may be looking it up to 236 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: see just how much like a frog it, you know, 237 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: to what degree it resembles a frog. I've seen it 238 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: sort of described a couple of different ways that either 239 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: it does roughly look like a frog, and that perhaps 240 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: there's this added level of well, you find it under 241 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: the hoof in the same way a frog might be 242 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: found under a rock or leaf. I don't know. Maybe 243 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: I've also heard that it really more accurately resembles the 244 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: pelvic bone of a frog, which apparently was carried for 245 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: good luck by horsemen. And this also might be tied 246 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: to traditions of the horseshoe, which we're not going to 247 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: really discuss in this episode, but we may get to 248 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: in a subsequent episode these of horseshoes as lucky charms 249 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: as well. 250 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 3: Interesting. Okay, I just looked up the pelvic bone of 251 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 3: a frog. It kind of looks like the wishbone on 252 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 3: a chicken. 253 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know. 254 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 3: And I'm looking at the frog of a hoof Now 255 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 3: it's sort of V shaped. I mean, you have to 256 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 3: stretch your mind a little bit, but I could see that. 257 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: Now the frog is apparently made up of the same 258 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: material as the hoof wall. More on what do we 259 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: mean by hoofwall in the second, But you can think 260 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: of like the outer hoof as you see it, but 261 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: it's more moist a certainly if it's healthy, apparently something 262 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: like fifty percent moisture or thereabouts. Now, And that's not 263 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: to say that the hoof wall itself is dry. In fact, 264 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: the hoof wall or the proper hoof that you see 265 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: if you're just looking at a picture of a horse, 266 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: it's in fact covered with material that prevents moisture loss. 267 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: And with domestic horses, hoof paint is sometimes added as 268 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: well to help contain moisture. So again, even the hardest 269 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: part of the of the horses hoof cannot be really 270 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: thought of as just this you know, like you rock, 271 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: you know, hard substance like it's in these These are 272 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: you know, organic structures, and there is moisture to. 273 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 3: Them, and with the keratin basis, I think you could 274 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 3: probably think about it more akin to like a like 275 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 3: a horn or like a thick fingernail exactly. 276 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, the frog, interestingly enough, is also a scent gland, 277 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: along with the chestnut of the leg and the airgut 278 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: of the fetlock. This is one of the reasons that 279 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: dogs can tract horses as well as they can. Plus 280 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: is apparently one of the ways that horses sniff out 281 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: each other in the field. I had no idea, Yeah, 282 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: there's a hole, there's a whole just un right underneath 283 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: the horse's hoof. There's a whole wonderland of weirdness. Well, 284 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: this is funny because we were just talking about beavers, 285 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: which apparently, you know, their scent glands and scent markings 286 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: play a big role in their their behavior and how 287 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: they interact with the environment. So, but I had no 288 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: idea that was true of horses. Yeah. Now, as we'll 289 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: discuss in a bit, horse hoofs, the hard part of 290 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: the hoof grows throughout their life and has to either 291 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: be worn down or trim down. This is where professional 292 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: farriers come into play with domestic horses, and not only 293 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: do they have to trim the hoof proper, but they 294 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: also have to trim the frog as it keeps growing 295 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: as well, and if not maintained, you can lead to 296 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: some infections conditions like thrush and so forth. I'm also 297 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: told by horse and dog people in my family that 298 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: dogs absolutely love it when their friendly neighborhood ferrier gives 299 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: them some hoof or some frog shavings to eat. Joe, 300 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: has this ever been your experience? 301 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 3: No, I never had a dog get this particular treat, 302 00:16:45,160 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 3: but I can imagine it's in the ballpark. 303 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: All right. So moving outward from the frog, it pushes 304 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: against the digital cushion, and when the foot is on 305 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: the ground, the increase in pressure and change and shape 306 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: in the digital cushion and the frog. It kind of 307 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: works everything like a pump forcing blood from the foot 308 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: into the leg. And McLure stresses that quote exercise increases 309 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: the blood circulation in the foot and favors good hoof growth. 310 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: Lack of exercise dryness of the horny wall and poor 311 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: nutrition inhibit hoof growth. All right, So let's get to 312 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: that hoof wall. The hoof wall is exactly what it 313 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: sounds like. It's that tough, horny outside part of the 314 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: hoof that's essentially a fingernail. I mean, if we're comparing 315 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: it to what we've got going on, it contains no blood, 316 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: vessels or nerves, and it grows continuously, so it has 317 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: to be worn or trimmed off. And to be specific, 318 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: the hoof wall grows out of the cornet located at 319 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: the junction of the skin and the hoof wall. So 320 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: if you're just looking at a picture of a horse's foot, 321 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: like this is where hoof ends, and like you know, 322 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: the hairy part of the leg begins now along with 323 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: the frog and the bar, which is part of the 324 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: wall aka bars of the wall bordering the frog. It's 325 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: a key weight bearing part of the hoof. The wall 326 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: is made up of the toe in the front, quarters 327 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: on the sides, and the heel. Now the interior of 328 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: the hoof inside the hoof wall. You can almost think 329 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: of it as kind of like this little kind of 330 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: U shaped walled city is the sole separated from the 331 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: wall by the white line or the golden line where 332 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: the inner wall and the sole joined together. The sole 333 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: does not make contact with the ground and it primarily 334 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: protects the inner structures beneath it. So these are all, 335 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: you know, things with the exception of the of the 336 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: digital cushion that we reference like, these are all things 337 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: that you would see if you were a if you 338 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: were just attending to a horse's foot, if you you know, 339 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: we're checking out a horseshoe or what have you. Now, again, 340 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: the hoof of a complex structure, and I'm not going 341 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: to attempt to cover every detail of it. Instead, hopefully 342 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: we can cover the key parts of the intern out 343 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: or hoof here and provide like a decent audio snapshot 344 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: of what it consists of. And I realize, even with 345 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: all the terminology we're going through, it still might make 346 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: sense to look up a diagram to see exactly what 347 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: we're talking about. Now. Internally, it's of course essential to 348 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: cover the phalanxes and valanges, essentially the finger bones that 349 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: make up the hoof, and the first of these to 350 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: cover really is the famous coffin bone, which is also 351 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: known as the petal bone or the distal phalanx or 352 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: P three. It's contained in the hoof capsule and provides 353 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,239 Speaker 1: its shape. It contains no bone marrow, but it has 354 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: a lot of blood vessels. And the name apparently has 355 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that it's entirely seated within 356 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: the hoof wall, in the interior of the hoof, as 357 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: if it were positioned within a coffin. It does not 358 00:19:58,119 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: look like a coffin per se. 359 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 3: The fact that it seems to be positioned within a coffin, 360 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 3: shouldn't that make it the corpse bone rather than the 361 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,719 Speaker 3: coffin bone or the cadaver bone. 362 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: You would think, You would think, I don't know. I 363 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: couldn't run down any additional information on where this comes 364 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: from other than just like you know, the built up 365 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: lingo of horse people over time. So if we have 366 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: horse people out there listening to the show that have 367 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: more insight on this, certainly right end. 368 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 3: Oh, please be gentle. 369 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: Whether you're used to working with horses, of course they're 370 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: gonna they're gonna be gentle. Okay. Now, more broadly, the 371 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: pedal bone is the bottomost bone in the front and 372 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 1: rear legs of horses, cattle, pigs, and other ruminants. Then 373 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: there's the navicular bone, so named because it's shaped like 374 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: a boat, and looking at images of it, at least 375 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: from the horse, I thought it also reminds me a 376 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: bit of a whale's tail as well. But I'm to 377 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: understand it's named this because it looks kind of like 378 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: a boat. It's also known as the distal sesamoid bone. 379 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: Most mammals have a navicular bone in their feet. Then 380 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: there's also the short pastern bone or middle phalanx. Its 381 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: positioned to top the articulating joint of the pedal bone, 382 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: with only the bottom portion extending to the hoof capsule, 383 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: essentially a fingerbone. So I don't know to what extent 384 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: all of that accurately conveyed the complexity and the beauty 385 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: of a horse's hoof, of a horse's foot, but I guess, 386 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: if anything, it should remind you like the horse hoof, 387 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: easy to draw, but far more complicated than you might think. 388 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 3: Well, another way to look at it is like if 389 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,959 Speaker 3: you look up a diagram of the bones in the 390 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 3: horse's hoof, it's not just like a straight bone down 391 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 3: to the ground ending in a nail. There are actually 392 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 3: a lot of bones, little bones crammed up in there, 393 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 3: kind of in the same way that you would see 394 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 3: a lot of little bones making up the human hand, 395 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 3: except in the case of a horse, it has been 396 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 3: streamlined into one more continuous vertical structure or column, with 397 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 3: the different bones kind of supporting each other in that 398 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,239 Speaker 3: column as opposed to in the hand the way these 399 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 3: bones are kind of fanned out. Yes, Now, Rob, before 400 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 3: we got recording today, you sent me a picture of 401 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 3: a famous horse from I was gonna say history, but 402 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,719 Speaker 3: maybe better to say legend. The meeting point of legend 403 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 3: and history. That really revealed something to me, and it's 404 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 3: that there are certain features that are often quite surprising 405 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 3: to discover, are really unsettling to find on an animal. 406 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 3: One example is if you see human teeth on a 407 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 3: non human animal, like a cat with human teeth, somebody 408 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 3: photoshops that together. It's horrifying. You don't want to see it, 409 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,239 Speaker 3: and it's kind of surprising how horrifying it is. And 410 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 3: I discovered a new one today when you shared this 411 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 3: picture with me, and it is a horse with human feet. 412 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: Don't like it. Something's unpleasant about that. It's not a 413 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 3: good vibe. 414 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is an engraving from sixteen eighty seven, attributed 415 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: to P. Trocial. You can look this image up. I'll 416 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: have to share it on some of our socials or something, 417 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: because it's terrific and also a little bit horrifying because 418 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: the fore feet of the horse are human feet or 419 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: something close to human feet, with clearly visible multiple toes, 420 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: like five human toes per foot. It does not make 421 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: sense to look at This does not seem like a 422 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: good variation on the equine form. You know, it's not like, oh, 423 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: like a centaur where you can be like, well, it's 424 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: like a horse and a rider as one. You know, 425 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: you can run around, it can shoot arrows, that's great. Like, No, 426 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: this is a situation where you're immediately thinking, shouldn't those 427 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: front feet and they have shoes on or something? How 428 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: is this force going to gallop? All sorts of questions 429 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: and problems emerge. 430 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 3: You're exactly right now, this is a cat with human teeth. 431 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 3: It doesn't look like it should work, and it doesn't 432 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 3: look nice. However, I will say other things about this horse, 433 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 3: and I guess in a minute we'll have to reveal 434 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 3: what historical horse this is supposed to be. But first 435 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 3: just allow me to describe this is a hair metal horse. 436 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 3: It has a tail and a main that are luxurious, glorious, 437 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 3: voluminous hair just waving in the wind. You can imagine 438 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 3: this horse really getting down on a guitar solo, playing 439 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 3: with striper or something. And then also this horse has 440 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 3: it appears to me, forward facing eyes horses. I don't know, 441 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 3: it doesn't quite get the horse face right. 442 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean the artist was already having to draw 443 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: those feet on this horse, so I think we can 444 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: forgive them if they maybe didn't put a maximum amount 445 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: of effort into the face. 446 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 3: Oh I'm not holding a grudge against p Trocil here, 447 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 3: but forward facing eyes implies that this horse is a 448 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 3: predatory carnivore, which makes me think it is one of 449 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 3: the Diamedean mirrors or you know, the flesh eating mirrors 450 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 3: of ancient legend. 451 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: It made me think too, of the horse that Ucla 452 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: the Mock rides in Thunder of the Barbarian. If anyone 453 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: remembers that old one Hanna Barbara cartoon. 454 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 3: I had to look that up. When you said it, 455 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 3: I wasn't familiar. But that's like it's kind of a 456 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 3: dinosaur insectoid, kind of horse. 457 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, a monster horse, you see, and especially sort of 458 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: like some old timey sci fi and fantasy. 459 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 3: But okay, what's the deal with this horse? Who is 460 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 3: this horse with human feet in the front. 461 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: This is none other than Julius Caesar's horse, sometimes referenced 462 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: by the name as Turkus or Astracus, But the horse's 463 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: actual name, whatever it might have been, seems to have 464 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: mostly been lost to history. I don't know that it 465 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: has a definite name. It's very much in the vein 466 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: in the tradition of say, Alexander the Great's horse Bucephalus. 467 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: That one's, you know, a more famous horse that also 468 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: ties back in a bit. This also tends to be 469 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: part of the general tradition in the Greco Roman culture 470 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: of having like a great leader riding a great steed 471 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: into battle that only they can mount, that is much loved, 472 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,959 Speaker 1: that will of course eventually die and will be remembered 473 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: and so forth. But also there's this idea of a 474 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: something strange about a horse. There's some sort of a 475 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: physical portent of future success or in some cases dire 476 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,719 Speaker 1: omens tied up in the strange anatomy of certain creatures, 477 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: especially the horse. But anyway, So where does this come from, 478 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: this idea that there's this horse by, according to various sources, 479 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: that had human feet in the front, or it had 480 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: some sort of toes in the front. I had a 481 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,959 Speaker 1: time sort of trying to find any actual source on this, 482 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: but a lot of it comes back to what the 483 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: Roman imperial historian Sutanius had to say about it. This 484 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: particular historian lived sixty nine through one twenty two CE. 485 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: Here's what he wrote. Quote, he rode a very remarkable horse, 486 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: with feet almost like those of a man, the hoofs 487 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: being divided in such a manner as to have some 488 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: resemblance to toes. This horse he had bred himself, and 489 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: the soothsayers, having interpreted these circumstances into an omen that 490 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: its owner would be master of the world. He brought 491 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: him up with particular care and broke him in himself, 492 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: as the horse would suffer no one else to mount him. 493 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: A statue of the horse was afterwards erected by Caesar's 494 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: order before the temple of Venus Genetrix. 495 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 3: Ah that would be the temple of the Venus of motherhood, 496 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 3: the Venus of the as the founder of the family. 497 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,719 Speaker 3: I wonder what that would have to do with the horse. 498 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: I guess maybe it has to do with with like 499 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: the rearing and the breaking of the horse, that he's 500 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: kind of like the mother of the horse. Maybe it 501 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: means a female horse, And I'm not sure exactly why 502 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: that particular temple interesting. So anyway, some illustrations, as much 503 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: like the one we've discussed already, depict this as just 504 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: a straight up monster horse with human feet in the front, 505 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: which I love. But a more reasonable interpretation is that 506 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: this was a polydactyl horse, much in the same way 507 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: that you will occasionally find you you'll find, say, like 508 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: a polydactyl cat, or of course polydactyl digits in human 509 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: beings as well. I found an eighteen seventy nine paper 510 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: on the general topic of polydactyl horses by o'thaniel Charles 511 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: Marsh titled Polydactyl Horse's Recent and Extinct. He writes, quote, 512 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: numerous cases of extra digits in the horse have been recorded, 513 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: and in nearly all of them, a single lateral hooflet 514 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: was present on one of the four legs. In most instances, 515 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: the occurrence was noted chiefly on account of its rarity 516 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: and no record was made of the exact position of 517 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: the extra hoofs with reference to the main digit, nor 518 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: the significance of these useless appendages. 519 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 3: Oh okay, So the idea here would be that if 520 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 3: there is anything to the story that Swetonius tells about 521 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 3: Caesar's horse, it might be just that the horse did 522 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 3: actually have extra toes, not that it had feet that 523 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 3: looked like a human's feet, but that it was a 524 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 3: case of polydactylely in this horse exactly. 525 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems to be like the more likely interpretation. 526 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: It's also worth noting, I believe Marsh mentions this as well, 527 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: that some accounts may have indicated that Alexander the Great 528 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: horse Bucephalus was also polydactyl, in which case, if that 529 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: was a you know, that was an idea already present 530 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: that would of course inform either the selection or interpretation 531 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: of a polydactyl horse for another great general. So you know, 532 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: we have to take that into account as well. And 533 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: again this general idea that if there's something strange going 534 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: on with a with an organism, there might be something 535 00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: about it that is that is a beneficial importent for 536 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: the receiving individual. I believe we touched on one of 537 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: these stories regarding if not Caesar, another Roman emperor in 538 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: pre in episodes over the last couple of years, and 539 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: I don't think believe it was a horse. It was 540 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: some other animal that was brought before the general and said, hey, 541 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: look at this weird creature and there everyone was like, 542 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: this is great. This means this means the campaign is 543 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: going well. 544 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 3: Okay, folks, we just had to take a second to 545 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 3: dig this up because it was too good of a memory. No, 546 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 3: this was something from our goats episode, right that we 547 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 3: did last October. 548 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: That's right, right, Yeah, this concerned a goat creature that 549 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: was brought to Sola, and it was I think the 550 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: main interpretation was like, yeah, this is great, this is 551 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: a this is an omen this means that we're going 552 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: to be successful in the campaign. 553 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 3: It was like somebody found a half man, half goat 554 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 3: in a cave somewhere and then they're like, hey, look 555 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 3: at this. 556 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it made horrible sounds, et cetera. So go back 557 00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: and listen to that episode if you want the full 558 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: story on that, and just goats in general. The cloven 559 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: hoof as opposed to the horse. 560 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 4: Hoof, that feeling when you find a goat man in 561 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 4: a cave, and you know everything's going to be all right. 562 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 2: All right. 563 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: Anyway, back to Marsh here, Marsh noted that and I 564 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: didn't look for other sources on this, but it kind 565 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: of casually. He mentions that the indigenous peoples of the 566 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: Americas were said to have described the horse when the 567 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: Spanish arrived as the beast with one fingernail, which of 568 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:41,959 Speaker 1: course is rather correct as as we've been discussing. And 569 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: then Marsh goes on to point out that there are 570 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: two slender splint bones within the hoof, the remnants of 571 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: two other toes belonging to the ancestors of the modern horse. Now, 572 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: Marsh points out a few other key facts that I 573 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: think are worth mentioning here. The fore, feet are the 574 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: most affected when you look at a eltse in the 575 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: records of polydactyl horses, it's almost always the four feet, 576 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: and of course this would match up with the story 577 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: of Caesar's horse. Also, the additional hooves or if you 578 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,239 Speaker 1: want to call them, toes, seem to generally amount to 579 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: one or two, so you're maybe looking at three toes 580 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: maximum on a four on a front hoof, though it's 581 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: not necessarily an equal amount on both four feet, so 582 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: like one there's a for instance, there's an account that 583 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: he points to where an animal had two hooves on 584 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: one and three on the other, so one extra on 585 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: one four foot and two extra on the other four foot. 586 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: Some of the horses, and this is English. This is 587 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: not getting into you know, in any translations here, but 588 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: in English, some of these were described as having eight 589 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: hooves or the like, thus counting all of the hoofs 590 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: on the animal. So this is just me. But I 591 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: can imagine first of all, a three toed four foot 592 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: reminding one of a human foot, looking at it and 593 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: being like, oh, it's kind of like toes. Look there 594 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: are three of them. I can likewise imagine some manner 595 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: of telephone game deviation occurring when describing a horse and saying, oh, 596 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: it had it had five toes. Well, what do you 597 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: mean by that? Do you mean that it just has 598 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: a single extra hooflet on one of its fore feet. 599 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: That would be a reasonable case, I think, based on 600 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: what I've been reading here. Or are you going to 601 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: interpret that as oh, well, that means it has five 602 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: hoofs or five toes to a foot something that is 603 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: too extreme based on what I've been looking at. 604 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 3: I see what you mean. But like the statement about 605 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 3: having total across the animal could be interpreted as on 606 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 3: one one leg. 607 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's so that's anyway, that's that's me thinking 608 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: about it. Marsh wasn't didn't discuss that idea, but it 609 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: just has me wondering if that's the sort of thing 610 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: that could be going on here as well. Now, there 611 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: are plenty of recent accounts of polydactyl horse hoofs and photos. 612 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: Of course, you can do an image search and you 613 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: can find images of horses that have additional hoofs or 614 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,399 Speaker 1: hooflits or toes or whatever you want to call them. 615 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: Most accounts I came across of in terms of like 616 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,919 Speaker 1: veterinary literature, dealt with congenital abnormalities that were at least 617 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: in some cases surgically corrected. So yeah, this is I 618 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 1: guess in the horse world. These are rare enough to 619 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: be notable, but certainly not so rare that they're unknown, 620 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: so it's not beyond the realm of possibility. It seems 621 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: that yes, Caesar may have had a polydactyl horse, acquired 622 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: a polydactyl horse or it's also equally likely that this 623 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: is just all you know, legend building in order to 624 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 1: build up the case that hey, Caesar is a lot 625 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: like that guy Alexander the Great. Both of them rode 626 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: around undeformed horses. Both of them were destined for greatness. 627 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 3: Now, you mentioned a minute ago when you were citing 628 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 3: the paleontologist Othneil Charles Marsh that he had written that 629 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 3: horses have these little splint bones within the hoof, which 630 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,919 Speaker 3: he attributed to being remnants of other toes that used 631 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 3: to belong to the ancestors of horses today. And it 632 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 3: turns out that's actually onto something. Because I was reading 633 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 3: some stuff about the evolution of the horse hoof. This 634 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 3: is an interesting and broad topic that's going to have 635 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 3: to span into the next part in the series, but 636 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 3: just to introduce a bit of it here, I was 637 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 3: looking at an article in The New York Times called 638 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 3: How Horses Got their hoofs by steph Ynn, published August 639 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,359 Speaker 3: twenty eighth, twenty seventeen. Now, this article is mainly responding 640 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 3: to a journal article that was published in Proceedings of 641 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 3: the Royal Society b Biological Sciences in twenty seventeen by 642 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 3: authors Brianna K. Mchorse Good Research Focus There, Andrew A. 643 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 3: Bee Winner, and Stephanie E. Pierce, and the paper is 644 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,959 Speaker 3: called Mechanics of Evolutionary digit Reduction in Fossil Horses meaning 645 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 3: the Biological family Equity. Now, what this journal article did 646 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 3: is it added some evidence to comment on the long 647 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 3: held hypothetical story of horse hoof evolution, which is based 648 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 3: somewhat on fossil evidence and inferences from other sources. But 649 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 3: basically the story that experts have long believed goes something 650 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 3: like this, that the earliest horses were small, much smaller 651 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 3: than horses today. They were sort of dog sized animals 652 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 3: that lived in forested areas, and they had multiple toes 653 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 3: per foot. So you have to imagine like small, little, 654 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 3: you know, doggy horses that had at least three toes 655 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 3: per foot I think maybe four toes on their front 656 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 3: legs and three toes on their back legs. And then 657 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 3: came some climate change about twenty million years ago. Some 658 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 3: of these horses were living in previously forested habitats that 659 00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 3: changed into grasslands and plains. The disappearance of forest and 660 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 3: the transition to grassland environments put different adaptive pressures on 661 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 3: these herbivorous four legged animals. And you might imagine there 662 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 3: could be a lot of different pressures there. But one 663 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,359 Speaker 3: example would be if you're not in a forest, if 664 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 3: you're in a grassland instead, it is a lot easier 665 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 3: for predators to see you. It's harder to hide, and 666 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 3: so this could drive the evolution of larger bodies as 667 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 3: a defensive adaptation. You need to make it easier to 668 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 3: defend yourself. And it could also lead to selection for 669 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 3: speed in order to be able to evade predators, and 670 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 3: so the story goes. For some reason, this shift to 671 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 3: becoming an animal that needed to be both big and 672 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 3: fast caused the selection of the single toe for the 673 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 3: contact point with the ground, as opposed to the previous 674 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 3: version of this animal, which had had multiple toes per foot. Now, 675 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 3: the authors of the study investigated this hypothetical evolutionary trajectory 676 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 3: by analyzing leg fossils from twelve different times types of 677 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 3: horses over evolutionary time, going back as far as fifty 678 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 3: five million years ago all the way up to modern horses. 679 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 3: And the researchers had previously investigated the different types of 680 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 3: physical stress put on horse legs by various types of 681 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 3: normal behaviors like trotting around, jumping, or speeding up into 682 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,280 Speaker 3: a run. And using this information about the physical stresses 683 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 3: on horse legs, they created a model of how these 684 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 3: activities would put stress on the legs of the horse 685 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 3: and then tested that model against different forms of the 686 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 3: horse's foot with different numbers of toes. And what they 687 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 3: found was that when horses were smaller and also had 688 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 3: multiple toes contacting the ground, the extra digits were actually 689 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 3: important for carrying the weight of the body. Body weight 690 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 3: was distributed across multiple toes, but as horses got bigger, 691 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 3: the toes on the sides began to shrink and essentially 692 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 3: disappeared as distinct digits, leaving only the single middle toe. Again, 693 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 3: the middle hit in the ground as the single mighty hoof. 694 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 3: This is the lone contact point with the earth now, 695 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 3: so it seems pretty clear that this is the trajectory 696 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 3: that happened over the evolutionary history of horses or horses, 697 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 3: zebras and donkeys. But why did the side toes disappear? 698 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 3: This study in particular does not answer that definitively, but 699 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 3: in the New York Times article they interviewed the lead author, 700 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 3: BREONN and Mchorse, and she suggested that maybe it's that 701 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 3: having just a single toe made it easier for the 702 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 3: horses to move their feet more quickly, using the comparison 703 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 3: of like trying to run with ankle weights on or 704 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 3: I think of the experience of trying to run in 705 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 3: heavy boots, which I've done. It's very difficult to do. 706 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 3: You know, running shoes tend to be very lightweight. 707 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: That's a good point. 708 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 3: And one thing this does highlight is the kind of 709 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 3: paradox of the behavior, the graceful behavior of the horse. 710 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,720 Speaker 3: It is like range to observe how graceful and quick 711 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 3: horses are given their size. Though I would like to 712 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,720 Speaker 3: point out that while horses are sort of a peak 713 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 3: example of this, I'm often struck by the shocking speed 714 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 3: and grace of even much more modest displays by animals 715 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 3: like bovines. Like have you ever seen a cow just 716 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 3: suddenly jump over a fence and it didn't look at 717 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 3: all like that was something that could happen until you 718 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 3: saw it. Do you know what I'm talking about? 719 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 4: Oh? 720 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean especially with cattle, because a lot of 721 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: times they do appear to be not moving a lot, 722 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: but when they do move it can be kind of shocking. 723 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, cows can look like four footed barges, like they 724 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 3: should not be able to move at anything other than 725 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 3: kind of a shuffle. But then suddenly you see them 726 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 3: leap over a fence or something like that. And now, 727 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,359 Speaker 3: of course, cows, as a reminder, are not single toed 728 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 3: ungulates like horses. Cows have two toes per foot, and 729 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 3: they got the hoofs on the two toes. But yeah, 730 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 3: so you multiply that to an even greater extent with horses. 731 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 3: When you actually see them up close and see how 732 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 3: big the animal is and then how fast and gracefully 733 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 3: it moves, something seems like wrong. It's like how is 734 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 3: it doing this? And it's quite It seems quite likely 735 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 3: that the single toad point of contact with the ground 736 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 3: is part of that equation that is how the horse 737 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 3: is possible. 738 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: You know, I think this might touch on another reason 739 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 1: that in literature and culture in general, there's less focus 740 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: on how weird the hoof is and more just on 741 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: like the majesty of the horse. Because yeah, watching like 742 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: the sum total of all of this, watching a horse run, 743 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: it's enthralling, Like it's it's hard to imagine, like riding 744 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 1: along in a car and someone like saying, hey, look, 745 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 1: look over there, those horses in that field are running 746 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: and being like, ah, I'm good, I don't need to 747 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: see that. No, of course you want to see that. 748 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: There's just something about it. I don't know, you know, 749 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: how much of it is just the the majesty of 750 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 1: the creature itself. How much of it is it's like 751 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: the historical and cultural weight of horses. But you know, 752 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: it's like they fascinated us. They've always fascinated us, you know, 753 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: since time out of mind, since you know, before our 754 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: ability to even scrawl them roughly on a cavern wall. 755 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 3: I'm not even one of those horse people, you know. 756 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 3: They're like horse people and then non horse people. I'm 757 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,760 Speaker 3: a non horse person. But when I let myself be amazed, 758 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 3: they are amazing. I guess this is what it's like, 759 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 3: twenty four to seven to be a horse person. 760 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, and again, I'm not like if you 761 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:34,919 Speaker 1: asked me, hey, do you want to ride a horse 762 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: this afternoon? I would probably say no, thank I'm good. 763 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 1: I did it once. I'm fine. It's not my thing. 764 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: But again, if you were to point out the window 765 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: and say, hey, there's some horses running. Would you like 766 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: to slow the car down and take a look at this, 767 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: I would say yes, please, let's watch, because watching horses 768 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: that's more my speed. 769 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:52,959 Speaker 3: Okay, well, I think we're going to have to cap 770 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 3: part one of this series there, but we will be 771 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,359 Speaker 3: back to talk about the hoofs some more. I know, 772 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 3: we have plenty more questions and idea is to get 773 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 3: into about the evolution of horse hoofs. And also we 774 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,959 Speaker 3: want to talk about the invention of the horseshoe. 775 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because that is a key invention in the 776 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 1: human relationship with the horse. And also I think understanding 777 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: the horseshoe helps us understand the hoof a little bit 778 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: more as well. In the meantime, if you have anything 779 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: you'd like to ride in and share with us about 780 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,720 Speaker 1: the horse's or their relatives, anything in general about hoofs 781 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: or horse like steeds in fantasy and science fiction, everything's 782 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 1: fair game. We'll share that email address in just a minute. 783 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, you can also check out other 784 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blur Your Mind and Stuff to 785 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: Blur your Mind podcast feed wherever you get your podcast 786 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, listener mail on Mondays. 787 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,240 Speaker 1: On Wednesdays we do a short form artifact or monster 788 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 1: fact episode, and on Fridays we set aside most serious 789 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,879 Speaker 1: concerns to just talk about a weird movie on Weird 790 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: House Cinema. 791 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer, JJ Posway. If 792 00:43:58,360 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch with us with 793 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 794 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 3: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 795 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 3: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 796 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 797 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 798 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,879 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 799 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.