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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and wellcome stuff.

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Speaker 2: I'll never told you protection. I heart radio. It is

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Speaker 2: time for another edition of Female First, which means we're

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Speaker 2: once again joined by the stupidness the spectacular Eves. Welcome, Eves.

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Speaker 1: Hello, thank you for the welcome.

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Speaker 2: Yes, thank you for being here as always. How have

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Speaker 2: you been, Eves? Any updates?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been pretty good. Honestly, I have been really

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Speaker 1: in my learn new things bag because I always want

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Speaker 1: to learn a lot of things, but now felt like

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Speaker 1: a good time to try to learn a lot of them.

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Speaker 1: So I'm slow rolling them. I'm like, I'm introducing them

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Speaker 1: in stages, and I'm like, I like to commit to things,

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Speaker 1: but I'm also willing to step out if I understand

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Speaker 1: that something really isn't the thing for me. So I started.

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Speaker 1: I'm a piano dance classes. So I've done two classes

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Speaker 1: so far, and I love to dance, and I think

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Speaker 1: I could be well suited to the style of dance,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not. I don't know. I have the rhythm

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Speaker 1: and like I have the capacity to learn it well,

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Speaker 1: I think, but I'm not good at it yet. So

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Speaker 1: like I'm also never danced before, and I'm never taking

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Speaker 1: a dance class before, so I also don't know just

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Speaker 1: like the technique and the format and the learning steps,

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Speaker 1: like all of that is new to me. I just

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Speaker 1: kind of like do what I want and feel good

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Speaker 1: in my body dancing, but like the technicality of it

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Speaker 1: I'm not familiar with, so having to get used to that.

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Speaker 1: Hoping to start surfing class surfing lesson soon because I

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Speaker 1: want to learn something water based where I actually have

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Speaker 1: to like swim, because I have the privilege of being

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Speaker 1: around water right now and being able to surf, So

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Speaker 1: I just kind of want to do it for the

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Speaker 1: novelty and the physicality of it and to do something

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Speaker 1: that will challenge my brain and my body and ways

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Speaker 1: that haven't been challenged before. But I'll sign up for

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Speaker 1: that soon. I know who I want to sign up with,

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Speaker 1: but I haven't just yet, but I'm gonna I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: start that soon. But yeah, I'm doing a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of new things, trying things out.

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Speaker 3: See, this is where I add all of these layers

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Speaker 3: of who you are into my tablet of what I

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Speaker 3: know of you, because we've already had many conversationations when

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm fascinated about you because you are unique

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Speaker 3: in this way and these levels you just keep adding.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, wait, you're doing what you're doing? What you

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Speaker 4: do it?

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Speaker 3: Wow?

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Speaker 4: Like the admiration has blown. But yes, every time I

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Speaker 4: hear from you, I'm like, who are you?

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Speaker 1: Well, I know I'm trying to figure I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: figure it out too, Samantha.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying encyclopedia like your volumes upon volumes that I

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Speaker 3: love to learn about.

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Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We always love checking in with you and seeing hearing

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Speaker 2: what you're up to. So cool, So I have. I

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Speaker 2: was going back and forth about our like transition question.

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Speaker 2: I was going to ask for this one. I think

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna go with the sillier one. How are you

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Speaker 2: with the board game Monopoly? Eves?

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Speaker 1: Not good? I lose and I haven't played a lot

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Speaker 1: in my life, to be honest with you, I've played,

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Speaker 1: but it's not like Benna Staple in my households, just

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Speaker 1: like it has been in other households. For me, it

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Speaker 1: was more I was in terms of board games, it

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Speaker 1: was like Clue, Shoots and Letters. Do you remember mouse Trap?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Yes, of course.

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Speaker 2: Game it was so.

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Speaker 1: Leration.

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Speaker 2: Oh oboration was.

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Speaker 1: Scary those silly games. The Monopoly was uh but yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was above my pay grade, to be honest with.

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Speaker 3: Y'all, so that that was probably the number one game

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Speaker 3: to cause fights.

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Speaker 4: Did you fight with people over it?

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Speaker 3: That?

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Speaker 4: Like? We have more thrown pieces thrown at each other

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Speaker 4: like brawls.

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Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah, that pieces thrown sounds like a choking hazard

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Speaker 1: those pieces serious.

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Speaker 2: No, it's kind of like notoriously bad.

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Speaker 3: You missed the part of your childhood of the anger,

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Speaker 3: which probably you didn't miss.

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Speaker 4: But I'm just saying it.

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Speaker 1: I think, idea, Yeah, we weren't that much of a

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Speaker 1: Monopoly household. I'm trying to think if I have any

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Speaker 1: distinct like memorable memories from Monopoly, But no, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I think your.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it really does.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so wait, what is it? What What was y'all's

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Speaker 1: experience with Monopoly?

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Speaker 4: You heard it, we brawls, fl games.

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Speaker 3: My dad put it away, telling us that he's gonna

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Speaker 3: burn it because he was so tired of us fighting

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, yeah, I liked We had a Star Wars

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Speaker 2: version that I liked because it was Star Wars. But

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Speaker 2: I know I just never won. And one time I

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Speaker 2: cheated and I still lost. And I'm convinced my little

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Speaker 2: brother was cheating too when he just cheated better for me.

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Speaker 2: But I remember I was a kid.

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Speaker 1: In that memory, I will die. Yeah, that sounds pretty

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Speaker 1: appropriate for the game of Monopoly. Cheating better Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Oh, he had like the whole good side of the board.

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Speaker 2: He had the all the properties. You just like feel

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Speaker 2: the dread when you got over.

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Speaker 1: So intimidating it was.

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Speaker 2: It was, and he was not a chill lose the winter.

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Speaker 4: I'll say that, I.

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Speaker 1: Feel like you should glow. This is that goes the

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Speaker 1: one with the characterization of the game.

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Speaker 4: Obviously to brag about how rich you are.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, checks out.

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Speaker 2: I have a friend who their family wouldn't even let

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Speaker 2: them have it in the house.

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Speaker 1: They were like, get it out, okay, because because it

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Speaker 1: was so intense. Yeah okay. I thought it was like

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Speaker 1: some sort of moral or ethical because I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about this in terms of how some families were like,

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Speaker 1: we don't mess with Harry Potter because it's like a

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Speaker 1: religious thing, like a religious or moral situation happened. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's like this is an anti capitalist household.

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Speaker 2: We can know it was originally an anti capitalist game

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Speaker 2: designed by a woman, but her idea got stolen and

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Speaker 2: look what happened. Yeah, anyway, that does loosely relate to

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Speaker 2: it was one of the first things I thought when

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Speaker 2: I was looking into the story. Actually, it makes sense,

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Speaker 2: mix sense, yes, to the person we're talking about today,

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Speaker 2: So we are excited to get into this. Who did

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Speaker 2: you bring for us to discuss youse?

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Speaker 1: Today? We're talking about Sarah Bickford And the reason that

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Speaker 1: monopoly is related to this is because she was the

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Speaker 1: first an only black woman in Montana and the United

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Speaker 1: States to own a utility company. So that was not

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Speaker 1: something that wasn't something I was expecting to bring to

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Speaker 1: the show. I wasn't like, I wonder who the first

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Speaker 1: black woman to own the utility company was. Honestly, it

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Speaker 1: didn't end up that way, and I was trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out how I got to her. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I was just as I do, just like going into

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Speaker 1: some rabbit hole and found out about her. So before

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Speaker 1: we were talking about her today, I wasn't familiar with

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Speaker 1: her story, but I probably happened upon it because I

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Speaker 1: do want to talk more about black women in the

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Speaker 1: American West, and I I don't. We've touched on some

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Speaker 1: people in the American West, but some black people in

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Speaker 1: the American West. But I think I could definitely bring

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Speaker 1: more of that to female first. And of course, I

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Speaker 1: mean we've talked about it a lot on this show.

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Speaker 1: But she just there's a lot about her story that

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Speaker 1: had to be uncovered and that wasn't known before. There

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Speaker 1: are some like unknown origins and reasoning for why she

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Speaker 1: did certain things. There was a lot of digging into

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Speaker 1: the archives that had to happen to find her stories.

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Speaker 1: I'll get to that in a second. But there is

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Speaker 1: a part of her story that just always intrigues me

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Speaker 1: and is just something I'm endlessly fascinated by and that

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Speaker 1: I'm always looking for in people's stories. Is that since

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Speaker 1: that built in sense of mystery that black people have

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Speaker 1: and our ability to make myths in our own personal stories,

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Speaker 1: it's like we are just so down for coming up

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Speaker 1: with a birth date or coming up with a story

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Speaker 1: or a birthplace. And I just think that the mythology

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Speaker 1: around her life and the personal myth making is just

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Speaker 1: so that element of blackness in history because of the

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Speaker 1: gaps in our histories, is just so magical to me.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a way in which it can be

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Speaker 1: reclaimed where it came from places of violence and of forgetting,

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Speaker 1: and all of these things that can be considered negative

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Speaker 1: that can be turned into a positive and just can

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Speaker 1: be so fantastical too that I think is really cool.

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Speaker 1: And I think there are parts of that in Sarah

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Speaker 1: Bickford's story. And when I mentioned the uncovering, I referring

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Speaker 1: to doctor Laura Arada, who's a historian. She wrote a

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Speaker 1: dissertation and she has a book called Race in the

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Speaker 1: Wild West, Sarah Bickford, the Montana Vigilantes and the Tourism

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Speaker 1: of Decline eighteen seventy to nineteen thirty, And throughout the

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Speaker 1: course of this episode, just know that I'm pulling a

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Speaker 1: lot of the information that I got from her work

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Speaker 1: because she really dedicated time to digging more into her story.

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Speaker 1: Even though she didn't have any specific personal relation to

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Speaker 1: Sarah Bigfort's story, she dug into it and found out

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Speaker 1: more things from the archive and was in touch with

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Speaker 1: Sarah Bigfort's family members that are alive today. So it's

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Speaker 1: just it's a really fascinating story. I'm excited to share it.

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Speaker 1: I do want to stay upfront as a content warning,

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Speaker 1: there is mention of domestic violence, but it's a very

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Speaker 1: short part of her story, and I'll let y'all know,

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Speaker 1: you know, once we get to that part that I'm

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Speaker 1: about to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: It is a really great story. And I when I

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Speaker 2: was looking into the name after you suggested it, I

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Speaker 2: was like, Oh, I've never thought like utilities. That's so cool.

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Speaker 2: So I'm really really excited that you suggested this topic.

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Speaker 2: So shall I get to the history.

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Speaker 1: So, speaking of the unknowns, Sarah Bickford might have been

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Speaker 1: born in eighteen fifty two. Her birthdate is unconfirmed. It's

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Speaker 1: like I've seen I think eighteen fifty five, eighteen fifty

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Speaker 1: six at various points when her name was listed in

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Speaker 1: a census. What it didn't collaborate with like the time

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Speaker 1: that she said she was born or sources said she

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Speaker 1: was born with how old they said she was at

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Speaker 1: the time. But that could also be a miss documentation

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Speaker 1: of the people who were recording these things. Just we're

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Speaker 1: saying eighteen fifty two though, and that was around the

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Speaker 1: time that she was born. Sarah would give her birthdate

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Speaker 1: as December twenty fifth, but I do wonder about that

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Speaker 1: as well. Because I can't remember who it was. But

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Speaker 1: we've talked in a previous episode about a female first

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Speaker 1: about person who said that their birthday was July fourth,

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Speaker 1: And it's not like this fills aligned with that.

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Speaker 3: To me.

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Speaker 1: It's like say, saying a date that is a a holiday.

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Speaker 1: It has a lot of spiritual, religious, major social implications

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Speaker 1: that are tied to it that makes a person's life

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Speaker 1: steel bigger than it is. But me saying that out loud,

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Speaker 1: I don't even want to put it that way. It's

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Speaker 1: just like it feels appropriate for how they consider their

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Speaker 1: own lives. And so that's where she gave her birthdate

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Speaker 1: ass But she later told her children that she had

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Speaker 1: been born a slave in the western part of North

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Speaker 1: Carolina and that all of her immediate family had died

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Speaker 1: while she was young. Now, most sources point to her

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Speaker 1: being born into slavery in Washington County, Tennessee. So there's

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Speaker 1: some discrepancies around whether it was western North Carolina or

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Speaker 1: eastern Tennessee, but it's seemingly Washington County, Tennessee, and her

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Speaker 1: parents and slavers were the Blair family in Jonesboro, Tennessee.

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Speaker 1: There is very little information about her childhood and her

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Speaker 1: younger years, but it is known that she did learn

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Speaker 1: to read and write when she was a child her

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Speaker 1: daughter Mabel, who obviously we haven't gotten to that part

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Speaker 1: of the story yet but later on. Just know that

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Speaker 1: her daughter, Mabel later said that Sarah was separated from

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Speaker 1: her family at the end of the Civil War and

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Speaker 1: never saw them again. There are some of the sources

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Speaker 1: that were dug up that came from Mabel speaking about Sarah,

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Speaker 1: so that's where some of that information comes from. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: by eighteen seventy, Sarah had made it to Knoxville, west

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Speaker 1: of Jonesborough, and there's little information once again on her

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Speaker 1: life in Knoxville as well, but she lived with an

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Speaker 1: aunt there who may have been Nancy Jones Gammon, she

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Speaker 1: wasn't explicitly named. And while she was there in Knoxville,

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Speaker 1: Sarah got to know a man named John Lttrelle Murphy

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Speaker 1: who had been a Union officer for the US Colored

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Speaker 1: Troop sixtieth Regiment during the Civil War, but he later

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Speaker 1: went to Montana Territory and became an associate justice there,

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Speaker 1: and Sarah went with him as he went west. She

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Speaker 1: cared for his children on the way over there. Not

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Speaker 1: fully clear why she decided to go west, but it

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Speaker 1: was rough in Knottsville in the years after the Civil War.

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Speaker 1: There were a lot of refugees there. Of course it

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Speaker 1: was Tennessee. There was the threat of racism, probably little

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Speaker 1: opportunity for work. So some of these things might have

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Speaker 1: driven her to seek a new lfe. But we don't

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Speaker 1: have the exact knowledge of why she chose to go

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Speaker 1: so far west. But also think of the conception of

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Speaker 1: the West in a lot of people's minds. It was

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Speaker 1: that way for white folks, it was that way for

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Speaker 1: some black folks as well, so she might have been

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Speaker 1: in part, might have speculation in part driven by that,

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Speaker 1: but that's just speculation based on the mythos of the

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Speaker 1: American West at the time. But yeah, so the background

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Speaker 1: of Montana a little bit here, it was pretty culturally

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Speaker 1: diverse in a certain way. There were indigenous folks that

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Speaker 1: were there, there were Chinese folks that were there, British, Germans, Italians,

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Speaker 1: because the conception of whiteness was a little different there,

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Speaker 1: so there was a lot of there were different communities

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Speaker 1: that were there, but black people were never more than

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Speaker 1: one percent of the total population of Montana itself, and

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Speaker 1: there was some lawlessness still, it was there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there was a wild West element to it. The way

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Speaker 1: they say it. It was a little bit like that

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Speaker 1: there because in eighteen sixty three, residents were worried about

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Speaker 1: road agents who they thought were committing highway robbery and

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Speaker 1: murder on the roads from Virginia City out to the

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Speaker 1: other cities around, which I think, is this idea that's

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Speaker 1: really associated with the wild West. It is a part

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Speaker 1: of Sarah Bickfert's story and a part of her story

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Speaker 1: in Montana. So folks in Virginia City, which is the

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Speaker 1: city that we're talking about that Sarah Bickford moved to

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Speaker 1: Virginia City in Montana. So they people there thought this

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Speaker 1: group was led by official law enforcement, this group of

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Speaker 1: bandits road agents, that they were led by official law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: So basically, these group of vigilantes that became known as

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Speaker 1: the Montana Vigilantes formed to address this concern. Stick with me,

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Speaker 1: because this is related to Sarah's story. We're only going

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Speaker 1: to touch on it here because that's its own history

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Speaker 1: in itself. But they launched many people who were suspected

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Speaker 1: road agents starting in eighteen sixty three, and these were

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Speaker 1: white vigilantes and suspected road agents. By the way, they

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Speaker 1: didn't necessarily target folks based on race, like it can

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Speaker 1: be associated with extra judicial killings and other places around

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Speaker 1: the country at the time, and that would be the

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Speaker 1: case even more so going forth. There were, of course

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Speaker 1: racial dynamics. Like if anybody says there weren't racial dynamics

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Speaker 1: somewhere in the United States at this time, they're lying

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Speaker 1: to you. There there's always there are those elements of

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Speaker 1: that that are going to be involved. But it was,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't operate the same there as it did everywhere,

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Speaker 1: because you know, not everywhere it's the same. But since then,

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Speaker 1: like after, the Montana Vigilantes have been celebrated as it

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Speaker 1: is part of Virginia City's and Montana's history. So in

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Speaker 1: January of eighteen sixty four, the Montana Vigilantes hanged five

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Speaker 1: men next to each other. And this is like one

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Speaker 1: of the important images, the important parts of note from

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Speaker 1: the Montana Vigilantes history. One because that was like a

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Speaker 1: big part of what they were known for, but also

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Speaker 1: because is a big part of how Sarah big first

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Speaker 1: story is related to them. But we'll come back to

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Speaker 1: that later on, So put a pin in that, remember

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Speaker 1: that for later. Okay, So moving on to Sarah's time

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Speaker 1: in Virginia City. So, at the time, Virginia City was

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Speaker 1: a territorial capital of Montana. She got there in early

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Speaker 1: eighteen seventy one by sleigh. Apparently it is January when

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Speaker 1: she got there, so it was super cold. Never been

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Speaker 1: in Montana, but I can only imagine how awful, how

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Speaker 1: awful that coldness, maybe because I can deal with the cold,

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Speaker 1: but like I know, it's on a different level there.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so she was about and she was young,

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Speaker 1: she was about like fourteen or fifteen, I think when

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Speaker 1: she made the trip, and Virginia City was this social

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Speaker 1: hub in the state at the time. Didn't stay that

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Speaker 1: way for long, but at the time it was. And

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Speaker 1: after Sarah got there, she started working as a cleaner

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Speaker 1: in the Madison House hotel. In October of eighteen seventy two,

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Speaker 1: she married this Irish immigrant named John Brown. So this

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Speaker 1: is the part where we're going to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about domestic violence. We won't go into any details,

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Speaker 1: but just if anybody wants to skip forward just a

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Speaker 1: little bit, then they are like welcome to at this moment.

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Speaker 1: So she went by the name Sally Brown a lot

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Speaker 1: throughout her documentation. You'll see her called Sally, and then

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Speaker 1: she took on different last names over the time. So

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Speaker 1: Sally Brown was one of the names that was in

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Speaker 1: her records, and John Brown was a minor at am

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Speaker 1: I n e R. I got a bite, Claire Box

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Speaker 1: am I r okay. I caught myself on that one. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: big part of the industry there was mining, mining.

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Speaker 4: And gotcha, got ya, I'm.

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Speaker 1: There for the same page with you. She had three

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Speaker 1: children with him, James, Eva and William. So John beat

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Speaker 1: an abuse Sarah. This this was like something that she

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Speaker 1: had to deal with in her relationship with him. That

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00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:09,400
Speaker 1: was very awful, tragically. Also, all of their children died

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Speaker 1: young from illness at different times, but they all died

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Speaker 1: really young, and she did. It's like I cannot only

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Speaker 1: imagine how stressful this was. Like she was in a

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Speaker 1: new place. She had gone from the South all the

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Speaker 1: way over here to the west. She was black, she

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Speaker 1: was married to a white person, like she would there was.

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Speaker 1: She was facing domestic violence at home, and she opened

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Speaker 1: she was still working out, so she opened the New

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Speaker 1: City Bakery and restaurant around May of eighteen eighty. There

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Speaker 1: was an ad in this newspaper called Madisonian from April seventeenth,

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty about her bakery and boarding house, and it

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Speaker 1: said the bakery and had fresh bread, cakes, pies, and confectionery.

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Speaker 1: So she was still a working woman. She was dealing

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Speaker 1: what she had to do to provide for herself and

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Speaker 1: her family. But she was still going through those issues

362
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Speaker 1: at home. But she did file for a divorce from John,

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Speaker 1: and so according to these divorce which wasn't that wasn't

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Speaker 1: the norm, like that was not usual, especially for a

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Speaker 1: black woman this time in Montana. So according to the

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Speaker 1: divorce proceedings, John didn't support William, their child. He had

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Speaker 1: abandoned his family around eighteen seventy eight. There was even

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Speaker 1: a point where Sarah went to Lauren I think it's

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00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,199
Speaker 1: pronounced la u ri I n Montana for a time

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Speaker 1: and she needed to support herself in Eva and John

371
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Speaker 1: left Virginia City and went to Deer Lodge where he

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Speaker 1: was served with his divorce papers and the divorce was

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Speaker 1: finalized on November thirtieth, eighteen eighty. That might have even

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Speaker 1: been the first time that a black woman successfully divorced

375
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Speaker 1: a white man in territorial Montana, so her daughter Eva

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Speaker 1: the adding to the tragedy honestly of this part of

377
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Speaker 1: her life and her story. Her daughter Eva died in

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty one, and she closed the bakery. She went

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Speaker 1: back to Tennessee in eighteen eighty one and then back

380
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Speaker 1: to Virginia City. And I think an important part to

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Speaker 1: say that doctor Laura Arada does bring up in her

382
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 1: work on Sarah. She talks about how she was able

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Speaker 1: to travel back from Montana back to Tennessee and how

384
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Speaker 1: that meant that she had a little bit of freedom.

385
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Speaker 1: She had the amount of financial success to be able

386
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Speaker 1: to make that kind of travel at the time, which

387
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 1: was notable. But sometime between eighteen eighty two and eighteen

388
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Speaker 1: eighty four, she got remarried a white minor, same kind

389
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Speaker 1: as before, in her name Stephen Bigfidge. So this was

390
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Speaker 1: a different It seemed like a one to eighty from

391
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Speaker 1: the relationship that she had before with John Brown. This

392
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: partnership seemed a lot more stable, a lot more positive.

393
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Speaker 1: They support each other in their business ventures, and the

394
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 1: first year they were together they lived in this cabin

395
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Speaker 1: near his mining claims and he ended up purchasing shares

396
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Speaker 1: in the Virginia City Water Company in the eighteen eighties,

397
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Speaker 1: and she and him they had four children together from

398
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty four to eighteen ninety and those kids' names

399
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,959
Speaker 1: were Elmer, Virginia, Helena, and Mabel. And she sent all

400
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Speaker 1: of her daughters to school, one even earned a master's degree.

401
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: So there are some wild stories, y'all. I can't get

402
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 1: into them now, but like if y'all go read about

403
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 1: her story, there are some wild stories about what the

404
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 1: kids had to deal with in school. So we talked

405
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 1: about doctor Laura Rata talked a lot about race and

406
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: how race figured into her life, how it was treated

407
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 1: in Virginia City and in Montana in general. Some very

408
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: fascinating stuff in there. So if y'all want a deep

409
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: dive on that, you can't. But she talked a lot

410
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 1: about how race wasn't mentioned a lot, if at all,

411
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: like really when it came to like newspapers and media

412
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 1: outlets talking about black people in Virginia City at the time,

413
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 1: they just didn't mention race. However, they didn't mention race

414
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,719
Speaker 1: for people who were of Chinese descent, and it was

415
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: they were treated in a very spoken about in a

416
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: very derogatory way versus it was kind of an emptiness

417
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 1: of the non mentioning of race when it came to

418
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 1: the black people in a lot of aspects. Now, that

419
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: didn't mean that they weren't racist though, Like there were

420
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Speaker 1: a lot of stories that doctor Laura Rada told and

421
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: that were mentioned about Sarah's children when they went to

422
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: school related to the menstrul se, the blackface, the singing

423
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: of the kun songs that the kids it was. It's

424
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 1: really wild, y'all, And I just feel like it is traumatizing.

425
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 1: It would have been trauma tizing for those children, But

426
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: they were in such a specific they were mixed black

427
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 1: and white children in Montana, in Virginia City in the

428
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, and that is like they also didn't necessarily

429
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 1: have the ability to contextualize the same way Sarah would have,

430
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: having come from Tennessee and being born in that place.

431
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: So anyway, there's that. But when it comes to Stephen,

432
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: Sarah's husband and their father, they said that he was tricked.

433
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: Mabel later said there could be no disobedience of commands.

434
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: They were not discussed but obeyed. And as I mentioned

435
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: at the top of this episode. Some of her descendants

436
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: are still alive, so there are living descendants of those children,

437
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: and his children even said that they thought that he

438
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: might have even been a member of the Vigilantes that

439
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: is unconfirmed. May have been a sympathizer, a supporter of memory.

440
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: There is speculation around that, but there isn't much that's

441
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: been settled upon. But yeah, so Sarah probably been running

442
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: the Virginia City Water Company since around eighteen eighty eight,

443
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: since Steven was off mining a lot of the time.

444
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: But around eighteen ninety three, Sarah and the family moved

445
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: to this farm called Romey's Gardens to make more money.

446
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: They had livestock, they had, they grew things, they sold things,

447
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: all of that. But by March of eighteen ninety nine,

448
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: Steven had gotten sick with the flu, and his illness

449
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: got worse and he had to stay home. Sarah's taking

450
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: care of him and Stephen Bickford ended up dying in

451
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: March of nineteen hundred. So after Bickford died, the water

452
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: company still needed to be ran. Sarah took over his

453
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: shares of the Virginia Water Company, so at that point

454
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: she had two thirds ownership of the company, and that

455
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: made her the first Black American woman in the West

456
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 1: who owned a public utility company. This is where her

457
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 1: first comes in, and she would be pretty active in

458
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: those first years in the company. She would visit the

459
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: homes and the offices of the customers of the company.

460
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: And there was of course, I mean it's a utility.

461
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: I mean that's a lot of work. I mean at

462
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: the time, in that specific environment, that's a lot of work.

463
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: And I couldn't imagine being in charge of that. But

464
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: there was of course maintenance and repairs that had to

465
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: be done because there were these super below freezing winter

466
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: temperatures and as we know even in Atlanta, that can

467
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: be a problem when it comes to infrastructure. They had

468
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: to replace they have wooden pipes, there was that they

469
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: had to replace those, and when the metal pipes came around,

470
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: they would burst and so those had to be fixed.

471
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: And so there were issues that came up throughout the time.

472
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: There were of course customer complaints all these kinds of things.

473
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: But I mean the par for the course for running

474
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: something as major and as important and fundamental as a

475
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: utility for the people. So Sarah was like, I think

476
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: I need some more education to help with maintaining this business.

477
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: So she took a correspondence course, which is basically a

478
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 1: distance learning course by mail, and she took that in

479
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 1: business management from a school in Scranton, Pennsylvania. Yes, great Scranton,

480
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: stand up, do you have a connection to Scrants from

481
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: the office?

482
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 4: So I'm like, look at that. What is shout out?

483
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: So she was really tapped into the tourism sector in

484
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: Virginia City too. People would gather in the city for

485
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: July fourth celebrations and they would pass through the city

486
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: on the way to Yellowstone, So there was some environmental

487
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: recreation tourism happening there too, and there was the sentiment

488
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,719
Speaker 1: from like newspapers and people in the city that they

489
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: wanted Virginia City to be this better place for tourists

490
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: to stop. This is pretty relatable because this is still

491
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that happens today when cities are

492
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what they need to make sure

493
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: that their people are taken care of, that there's income

494
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: coming into the city and all these things. So they

495
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: were like, how can we figure out how to build

496
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: up the city so that the people who are coming

497
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: through have a reason to stop and stay and enjoy

498
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: and spend their money here, and part of that was

499
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: including adding historic sites, and so that leads us for

500
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: a moment back to that history of the vigilantes. So

501
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: there was this what they call the Hangman's Building, and

502
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: that is related to the people who had been hanged

503
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: by the vigilante that I mentioned earlier. So there's this

504
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: nineteen oh one article in the Madisonian that said that

505
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: the Hangman's they called it this I'm not calling it this, okay,

506
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: they called it the Hangman's Building. That feels, you know,

507
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: it's it feels pretty inappropriate because it definitely makes a

508
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: light of the situation that people were hanged there. But

509
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: that's complex in itself, and there's also a particular history

510
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: behind this Hangman's Building and how that lynching was situated

511
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: among the others because it wasn't like the lynchings in

512
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: the South, and it was also it became celebrated as

513
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: a part of Virginia City's history. So yeah, there's all

514
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: of that. But it's called the Hangman's Building, not my moniker,

515
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: but the moniker that has been that it has been

516
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: christened with by other people. But so yeah, this article

517
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: said that it had been a pill shop, reading room,

518
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: post office, meat market, ice cream parlor, and half a

519
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: dozen other things. I think it was also a law

520
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: office at one point, and so Sarah ended up purchasing

521
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: this building. Later, I think in nineteen seventeen, she purchased

522
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: the Hangman's building and she moved the water Company's business

523
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: office there. So the city's thinking about tourism. The car

524
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: automobile tourism is picking up. There's this industry around here

525
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: ittage tourism that is growing and becoming more popular at Montana.

526
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: At the same time, the population in the city was declining.

527
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: So that's the overall population, but that includes the population

528
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: of black people who were there. And there's this As

529
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: time continues, of course, there's usually this. Most people are

530
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: going to feel compelled to increase modernization, you know, and

531
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: keep up with the times because you want to stay

532
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: relevant to people, you want to continue making money and

533
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: things like that. So the city is facing this challenge,

534
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: but it's also figuring out that it can turn to

535
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: highlighting the city's wild West ara of that history to

536
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: attract more visitors. And Virginia City started marketing itself as

537
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: a cradle of Montana history. And this Hangman's bab had

538
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: been covered up in the building, but apparently Sarah exposed it,

539
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: and in the nineteen twenty she even ended up opening

540
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: up the building for tourism. There is this rumor that

541
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: doctor al Arada Minshett that that she had kept some

542
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: rope in her desk and that she would sell pieces

543
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: of it to visitors as souvenirs of the original rope.

544
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: She'd be like, here you go, I mean you get

545
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: this original rope. Yeah. So I don't know how true

546
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: that is, but there's a room or that she did that,

547
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: and Sarah's children ended up all moving away from Virginia City.

548
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: You hear this story a lot. I would be curious

549
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: to know what Sarah's feelings about them moving away would be,

550
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: because I know parents often face this struggle of kind

551
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: of where they want their kids to remain. Where you

552
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: know they were, where their foundations are, you know where

553
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: the family businesses, and you know where they're parts of

554
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: their heritages and all these things. So I would be

555
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: curious to know how she felt about that. But they

556
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: all moved away from Virginia City. There's various places, I

557
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: think Chicago, d C, New York. Over the course of

558
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: you know, time, So they went a bunch of different places.

559
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: Though her child, Elmer, did come back in the mid

560
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties to help with the water company and he

561
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: also did some plumbing work there. But by the nineteen twenties,

562
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: like basically kind of like all the black population in

563
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: Virginia City was gone and it was a very different

564
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: place it was when Sarah first moved there. She did

565
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: die at home in Virginia City on March twenty second,

566
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one, and she's buried there in Virginia City

567
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: next to Stephen Bickford. And after she died, the Hangman's

568
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: Building became one of the most popular tourist attractions in

569
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: the city. There is I can't tell you what the

570
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: answer is. It doesn't seem like historians can fully pin

571
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: down what the answer is. Only Sarah would be able

572
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: to say. But the question remains at the end of

573
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: her entire stories, like why did she promote the Hangman's

574
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: Building as this tourist element, as a black woman who

575
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: was born in slavery in the South, why did she

576
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: promote the building? Questions? It was it just a business opportunity?

577
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: Was it that the vigilantes she supported the vigilantes because

578
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: they kicked John Round out of town after he had

579
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: abusing her, because there was some stories about them, you know, basically,

580
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: there was retribution to get the people who committed domestic

581
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: a violent domestic violence. Was it that, don't know? Was

582
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: it that her late husband Steven supported the vigilantes. Was

583
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: he one of them? Was he sympathetic? Don't know. It's

584
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: not fully clear, but it is clear that it is

585
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: a pretty it's pretty like complicated and fascinating part of

586
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 1: her story that she bought this building. To me, thinking

587
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: about it in the way that I think about things personally,

588
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: it does in a way feel like a sort of reclamation.

589
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: And let me just be clear that I am placing

590
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: this narrative on it right now because I'm just doing

591
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: my acts of wondering that I do when I'm reading

592
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 1: people's stories. But it's like I went to a different

593
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: part of I'm speaking as Sarah, like I went to

594
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: a different part of the country, somewhere where I went

595
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: before lynching was happening, as it did in the early

596
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds, And she went before then, and so

597
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: lynching hadn't become it wasn't that same exact thing that

598
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: it was after she had left and she was living

599
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 1: in Montana, and also she was in a different geographic

600
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: space in the country by being there, and she was

601
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: it was also related to this history of lynching that

602
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: was more about like it was in some ways what

603
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 1: some people would have considered their imagine it kind of

604
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: punching up because they were targeting people who were shady

605
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: law enforcement officials who weren't treating the people of Virginia

606
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: City correctly. And so I wonder if there was a

607
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: reimagining there, if there was any sort of empowerment that

608
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: was in it for her, if I just wonder what

609
00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: kind of like recontextualization and n narotizing narrative there was

610
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: there for her. But I'm not sure. Her children did

611
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 1: continue to own and operate the water company for more

612
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: decades after she died, So her story arranges the gamut

613
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: of the thing she did in her life too and own.

614
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: So over the course of her life she had run

615
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: a boarding house, catering business, restaurant, and ice cream saloon,

616
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: which I am partial to because I love ice cream.

617
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: I wish I could taste ice cream that was in

618
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,479
Speaker 1: her ice cream saloon. But yeah, she was mark Grave

619
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: was marked. You know, her name was written in the

620
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 1: newspapers even at the time. On April tenth, twenty twelve,

621
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: she was inducted into the Gallery of Outstanding Montana's and

622
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: the Capitol Rotunda. And there's an image on the wall

623
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: in a Hayman's building that includes information about Sarah's life.

624
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: And there are a couple of pictures of her, not

625
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: many so as far as I know, they're just too

626
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: There might be more than that, but that I'm not

627
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: privy to. But there's one of her that if you

628
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: google her, you'll probably see that one first. And then

629
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: there's another one that I saw that doctor la Vada

630
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: shared of her later in life, closer to her death.

631
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: That is very kind of it's pretty moving to see, honestly.

632
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you could learn a lot through

633
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: a picture, even if that's just like, you know, an

634
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 1: emotional learning that's happening through looking at a picture. So yeah,

635
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: the Hangman's building still standing, as well as the building

636
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: where her bakery was. And I just wanted to share

637
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: this quick quote from the historian doctor Laura Roda's dissertation

638
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 1: just to end. So this is what she said, perhaps

639
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: Bickford's story is most remarkable because it is in many

640
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: ways unexceptional. She accomplished incredible things, running a public utilities

641
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 1: company and providing the town of Virginia City with water

642
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: for three decades before her day in nineteen thirty one.

643
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: But Bickford never cast her success or either of her

644
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: two marriages to white men in terms of race, and

645
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 1: she was never notorious within her own community. Rather, she

646
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: was integrated, respected, and almost never identified by existing accounts

647
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: of contemporaries in terms of race. So that is that's

648
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: that's what That's what doctor Laura abowt to say it.

649
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: That is something she was situating in terms of comparing

650
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 1: her to other black women, specifically who had histories in

651
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: the American West, like Mary Fields, stagecoach Mary as some

652
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: people I know that we've talked about her before on

653
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: the show, And so a lot of times when people

654
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: stand out in history is because they have this anomalist

655
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: character or they did anomalous things, they stood out in

656
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: their communities in certain ways. And so I do think

657
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: it was interesting that doctor rata Like made this connection

658
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: that in this case, Sarah Bickford was a black woman

659
00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 1: in the American West, and what she did was pioneering

660
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: and it was singular, but it wasn't necessarily remarkable because

661
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: of her outside like her larger than life character per se,

662
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: and something like a utility company is so foundational, you know,

663
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: it's not so it's not as much of a spectacle

664
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: if you put it that way. So I do think

665
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: that that was interesting that she pointed that out. And yeah,

666
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: the race thing is a whole a whole other element

667
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: to it, because you know, it was notable that she

668
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: was married to two white men over the course of

669
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: her life there, but there also that's what was there,

670
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: Like she wasn't surrounded by a lot of other black

671
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: men either. So it's her story is just really fascinating.

672
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: And I think if folks want to dig into the

673
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: history of vigilantism of indigenous people in the area, of

674
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: how Chinese people of Chinese descent were treated in Montana,

675
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 1: of the history of Montana, of the history of mining,

676
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a lot in there that that you

677
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: can dig into if you want to look more into

678
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: serious history.

679
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 3: Look, this story just is definitely like the Wild West

680
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 3: story that I like, it's such a separate state of

681
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: being compared to the South, like the timelines, I don't

682
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 3: even get it. Yeah, I can't even put it together

683
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 3: because in my mind they are such separate worlds and

684
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 3: separate stories. So I could definitely understand because especially with

685
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 3: a vigilante story West, justice versus racism, and all the

686
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: cultural contexts that was happening in the South and over

687
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 3: in the East area seems so separate that it kind

688
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 3: of made sense to me of her like yeah, obviously,

689
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 3: Like I was actually expecting you to say that she

690
00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 3: was a part of this.

691
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 4: Like that's kind of where I thought it was.

692
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 3: For a second, I was like, oh, but she this

693
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: bad thought of force with some gun slinging doing her thing,

694
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 3: Like yes, let's let's go.

695
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 4: We need that story.

696
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding. I'm not promoting violence in any way,

697
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 3: but I'm just saying, in like the historical context, it

698
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 3: made sense that she's like yeah, like it's not necessarily

699
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 3: what we know. It could also make sense again because

700
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 3: the West Wild West has its own loss that she

701
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 3: was just making money and this is one of the

702
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 3: ways to do it, and it's just like one more

703
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 3: thing to add to her like legacy of I'm gonna

704
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 3: survive and this is what I'm doing, but it's so fascinating.

705
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: Yeah it is, And yeah, I think who knows, maybe

706
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: she did have something to do with it and she

707
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: just never told me body or we don't have that

708
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: record of documentation.

709
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 4: So she was that good at hiding it, like she

710
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 4: was one of them.

711
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 3: To truly pull off something, you need to be like yeah, lowly,

712
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 3: it needs to be a secret. So she really held

713
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 3: it in regards to that. That would be an amazing story.

714
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 3: So when this is also one of those is I'm like,

715
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 3: I need a movie.

716
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: I was thinking that. I was like, yeah, like how

717
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 1: how could you know? They would have to up the

718
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,959
Speaker 1: drama in the spectacle And that's why I'm where I'm like, yeah,

719
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I would love to see this

720
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 1: told as I would honestly love to see her story dramatized,

721
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: Like I think it would be pretty cool.

722
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 3: He's pretty satisfying that she got a divorce from an

723
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 3: evil man like that that you don't need to do

724
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 3: much more that the fact that she had the audacity

725
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 3: to actually file for divorce. I'm like, come on, yeah,

726
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 3: that especially in this time as yeah, against a white

727
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 3: man who could have made it worse. So good thing.

728
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 3: He had to run away anyway, but like there's so

729
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,240
Speaker 3: many things to that, and like that's hard to do today.

730
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm laughing because you're thinking, like you're thinking like

731
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: a Hollywood writer. You're like, yes, there actually is a

732
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,919
Speaker 1: dramatic story here, and it is the story of a

733
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 1: wife's revenge. Okay, right, and then nothing else, everything else

734
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: doesn't matter.

735
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 3: But at top of the fact that she owned and

736
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 3: I'm just trying you again, this is from my knowledge

737
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 3: of entertainment and just a few of the Westerns that

738
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 3: I've seen. In any of those because Montana also, we

739
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 3: had a guest on here was from Montana. I was like,

740
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 3: I've never met a person from Montana. And that's not

741
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 3: the sentence that I hear in general even today. But

742
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 3: like in that like water was really precious. Again, this

743
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 3: is my very small knowledge in entertainment life, and like

744
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 3: because they had a lot of livestock, they had all

745
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 3: these things, and like it was pretty best lands and

746
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 3: it was hard to get to get like all these things.

747
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 3: And for her to be a utilities person that control

748
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 3: the water and helped make sure that it was accessible,

749
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 3: that seems like a huge undergoing test but also a

750
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 3: huge like power, not like in this level of like

751
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 3: during a time where water is precious and it is

752
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 3: today obviously, but it seems like a story in itself

753
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 3: as well.

754
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: Wow, Samantha, that really that was really moving. I didn't

755
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: really I didn't really think about that. I'm serious that

756
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: that that really that touched me because you're right, like's

757
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: it was a precious resource. And I think this is

758
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 1: something I was trying to situate as I was reading

759
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: Sarah Bigfot's story because also my focus right now in

760
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: the work that I do is a lot about how

761
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 1: black people are related to the land environment. I'm focused

762
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: more on environment and the outdoors in the land. And

763
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,760
Speaker 1: I knew that that I felt that through her story.

764
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: One because it's Montana and it's it's the time that

765
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: it was, but also because she was in public utility.

766
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: But there was something that wasn't fully connecting with me,

767
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: which like, I know this is an outdoor and environmental story,

768
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: but I'm not fully sure about what that is yet

769
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: because that's not necessarily how her story was presented through

770
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,919
Speaker 1: doctor Laura Arada's work. So that is very a suit

771
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 1: point because she she like Virginia City was not an

772
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: insignificant place if it was this cradle of Montana's history

773
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: and it was this social center at the time that

774
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: she got there, and for her to have that power,

775
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: like you say, I will, that power of being the

776
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: person who people had to come to when they had

777
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: issues with water and the person who was delivering that

778
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 1: very necessary part of people's everyday lives. Yeah, I must.

779
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 1: I mean I must have imagined it's so big. That's

780
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: that is really big. Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

781
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,439
Speaker 2: No, it is. And it's funny when, like I said,

782
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 2: when I was like, oh, who are we talking about?

783
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 2: What did they do? And I was like utilities? But

784
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 2: when you think about it, it is like so important

785
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: and it matters so much like when your utilities are

786
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: not working. That is when you're like, oh, I didn't

787
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 2: realize how valuable and important this is. So I do.

788
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: I think all the elements are there for them to

789
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: make Hollywood. The story is there, the myth making is there.

790
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: Like you said, Eves, there's a lot of cool like

791
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 2: rumors they could pursue.

792
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: There was one instance in her story of like she

793
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: didn't sue. She sued one person in her the course

794
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: of her so she got into there were some people

795
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: who came it was like, yeah, this isn't this payment

796
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: isn't right, the water blah blah blah. You know, they

797
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: had issues with her. But there was one a known

798
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 1: person who she had to like bring legal action against,

799
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: And I could imagine inserting some some imagina there, right, yeah, yeah,

800
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: but yeah.

801
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,800
Speaker 3: I'm also interested because this should be the basis of

802
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 3: generational wealth, like this should be the conversation where she

803
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 3: was able to help set up her family for the

804
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 3: rest of their lives, like all of and the generations

805
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 3: to come in order to take care of them, because

806
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 3: this is what we see with like the beginning of

807
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 3: the establishment of the US or before. Yeah, where are

808
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 3: our descendants? Do we know?

809
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know much about where they are.

810
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 1: Seemingly from what was said about her children, because it

811
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: would be her children's children who could still be alive.

812
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: But from what they said about her children, it was

813
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: that they were pretty well off when they did they

814
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: were doing well when they moved to other parts of

815
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: the country. I think one was married. One of her

816
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: children was married to the Howard professor she worked out.

817
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: I can't remember something like this, But in terms of

818
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,879
Speaker 1: where they want where her children went at the time,

819
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: I think they were doing pretty well, But I don't

820
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,720
Speaker 1: know about the state of her the rest of her,

821
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: her family.

822
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: I'd just say that because you know, as we're talking

823
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 3: about monopolies and as we talk about the level of

824
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 3: wealth that has happened over the years in the US

825
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 3: for a lot of people, like, of course, it would

826
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 3: be an interesting, like a phenomenal thing to see a

827
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 3: black woman to be able to establish that. And she

828
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 3: should have been if she was in that same conversation

829
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 3: with the equity that should have been given to her.

830
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 3: But of course, you know, that's the whole different thing.

831
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 3: I just wondered where that was because she could been

832
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 3: like it could be a measure of what we could see.

833
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 3: And then like I could also see her fear of

834
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 3: her the children leaving. And I know you didn't get

835
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 3: into us get into it, but like if she had

836
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 3: experienced the times of enslavement and seeing those repercussions in

837
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 3: the East, her children going back to that had probably

838
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,479
Speaker 3: been horrifying, even though they didn't but.

839
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: Like they did, so they did go back to Tennessee.

840
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 1: She took them back to Tennessee at a certain point, Yes,

841
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: and there was part of her story that we didn't

842
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: get a touch on today that was about how she

843
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: felt about who her children should marry, and she did

844
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: want them to, you know, understand, be around other black

845
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: people basically at certain times. And so, yeah, there is

846
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: a little part of her stories. It seems pretty complicated

847
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: in how she viewed race because, like I said, she

848
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: was also married to white men and there was someone

849
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: who wanted her children got married to who was black

850
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: she didn't want them to be married to, but there

851
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 1: was also a white person she didn't want them to

852
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: be married too. So it wasn't a cut in dry

853
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: situation for her seemingly, but she did. As far as

854
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: what I can tell and what is written about her history,

855
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: it wasn't She didn't seem to speak much about any

856
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: resentment or it didn't seem to be much of a

857
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: point for her because she did go back, So it

858
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,280
Speaker 1: wasn't like I'll never go back to Tennessee. There seemed

859
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: to be still a connection there for her that wasn't

860
00:50:55,640 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: a completely lost cause if that makes any sense. Yeah,

861
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: it does so much depth. Yeah, it's tough for.

862
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 4: Movie times.

863
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a mini series, I think it's a

864
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 2: mini series.

865
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, people are liking the wild the wild West situation.

866
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 3: Actually so last movies like that is the thing, and

867
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 3: this is like exactly her going at a young age

868
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 3: on a sled.

869
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 4: Come on the.

870
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: Sled right, Yeah, well pretty, we can only hope, We

871
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 2: can only hope. Thank you so much has always used

872
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 2: for bringing this story to us. It's a great conversation.

873
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 2: I really loved learning about her. Where can the good

874
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 2: listeners find you? Y'all can find me on my website.

875
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 2: You can just go there and get to all of

876
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 2: the other things. But my website is Eves Jeffcoat dot com.

877
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:02,879
Speaker 2: That's y v es j E F fcat dot com.

878
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: Y'all can also go to Instagram I'm at not apologizing,

879
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:09,800
Speaker 2: or you can just go to listen to a bunch

880
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: of other episodes of stuff Mom Never Told You with

881
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 2: me talking about other female first. Yes, yes, can't wait

882
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:20,839
Speaker 2: to check back in with you, Eves and see what

883
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 2: new adventures, new skills you've acquired next month. But listeners,

884
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 2: go check out all of that stuff if you haven't already.

885
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: If you would like to contact us, you can you

886
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: can email us at hello at stuff Onnever Told You

887
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 2: dot com. You can find us on Blue Scott Mom

888
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 2: Stuff podcast on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I've Never

889
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 2: Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have some merchandise

890
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:42,399
Speaker 2: at Coombureau and we have a buck you can get

891
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,439
Speaker 2: wherever you get your books. Thanks to So It's Too,

892
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 2: our super produce Christina or Executi Produce My and your

893
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 2: contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for listening

894
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 2: Stuff Never Told You to protection my Heart Radio for

895
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 2: more podcast from my Heart Radio, you can check out

896
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897
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: your favorite shows