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Speaker 1: Welcome everyone to this edition of Amy and TJ. Big

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Speaker 1: headline here in the media world, but bigger implications for

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Speaker 1: anyone who consumes news in this country. John Dickerson is

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Speaker 1: leaving CBS. He has been co anchoring CBS Evening News

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Speaker 1: now since the beginning of the year. But this is

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Speaker 1: a major head to roll and certainly a concern of

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Speaker 1: what is potentially still to come.

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Speaker 2: Well head to roll. We haven't gotten official word, that is,

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Speaker 2: whether his head is rolling voluntarily. This is always the case, right,

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Speaker 2: But here we are once again another big name news

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Speaker 2: anchor is out. Look. We've seen a lot of this recently.

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Speaker 2: We're probably going to see a lot more of it.

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Speaker 2: But this is telling us where the media landscape is,

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Speaker 2: where it's going, and it's not a good sign.

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Speaker 3: It isn't.

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Speaker 1: And when you have the president of CBS News, who

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Speaker 1: we know very well, Tom Sabowski and old boss of ours, in.

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Speaker 3: Announcing him leaving.

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Speaker 1: In announcing John Dickerson's leaving, he said this John epitomizes

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Speaker 1: the very best of journalism. So if that is indeed

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Speaker 1: the case, and certainly that is what I think almost

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Speaker 1: all of his colleagues and everyone who knows him and

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Speaker 1: his work would say, why then would he leave at

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Speaker 1: the age of fifty seven, at the height of his

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Speaker 1: career at a job that most people would do anything

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Speaker 1: to have.

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Speaker 2: And it's a job he's only half for nine months.

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Speaker 2: I have to remember he's had a long career there,

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Speaker 2: sixteen plus years, and he's bounced around quite a bit.

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Speaker 2: But he's essentially been a part of their biggest shows

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Speaker 2: at CBS. This is besides sixty minutes right, arguably to

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Speaker 2: be the CB at the chair of Cronkite and Murrow

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Speaker 2: and Dan Rather, that's a big deal.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I was just going to say Cronkite.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is the coveted seat in broadcast journalism

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Speaker 1: period and certainly was held by the great of this industry.

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Speaker 1: And so he has been co anchoring CBS Evening News

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Speaker 1: with Maurice Debois since January of this year.

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Speaker 3: They took over for.

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Speaker 1: Nora O'Donnell, who had that role for six years. But

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Speaker 1: this has been a program that has suffered in the

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Speaker 1: ratings period since as long as I can remember, and.

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Speaker 2: Has continued to suffer. Look, they haven't committed to this

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Speaker 2: new format, which is jarring. It will throw you off

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Speaker 2: the evening News is traditionally a single anchor, and it

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Speaker 2: has been a single mail anchor. But Katie Kerrig did,

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Speaker 2: Nora al Donnad did it? Who else was? I'm forgetting

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Speaker 2: a one.

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Speaker 1: Well, Connie Chung tried it in a co anchor situation,

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Speaker 1: and also Elizabeth Vargas for a period of time as well.

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Speaker 2: That ab so that was solo.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, she actually did it alongside Bob Woodruff, but

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Speaker 1: he was sent off to war in a rock and

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Speaker 1: then he was injured, said your brain injury. And then

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Speaker 1: they ended up doing away with Elizabeth as well and

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Speaker 1: rejiggering the whole set up.

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Speaker 2: And I'm thinking about Carol Simpson on the Weekends at ABC.

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Speaker 2: She did that on her own. But the point here

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Speaker 2: is that it's it was jarring to see two men

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Speaker 2: sitting up there, two men who had different style. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't just that there were men, but they were two

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Speaker 2: guys that we've actually never seen together before. They looked

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Speaker 2: like they were thrown together. They have different styles, they

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Speaker 2: have different approaches. Maurice is a local news guy here,

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Speaker 2: been here forever. Love Maurice, but he has a very

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Speaker 2: smooth delivery. John is a very different kind of guy.

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Speaker 2: He's known for his writing. He's known for not necessarily

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Speaker 2: the presentation being that necessarily smooth.

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Speaker 1: He didn't even come into television until two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 3: He was a print guy. He was a behind the

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Speaker 3: scenes guy.

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Speaker 1: He was an amazing, incredible journalist, but not one you

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Speaker 1: saw it in front of the camera.

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Speaker 2: So to say all that, to say, they put together

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Speaker 2: and they tried something new that they didn't actually give

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Speaker 2: a long time to see if it was going to work,

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Speaker 2: not just having two men there, but it was more

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Speaker 2: long form, sixty minutes feeling stuff in a thirty minute

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Speaker 2: evening newscast, not what we're used to say.

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Speaker 1: You and I watched it for the first time together

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Speaker 1: and were a little shaken just because it was so different.

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Speaker 2: It gave us some days.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we did it, just it's not look.

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Speaker 1: I think the idea was that you were all getting

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Speaker 1: this long stream of reporting all day long, so by

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Speaker 1: the time the evening newsuals around, you already know pretty

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Speaker 1: much the listener, the viewer, all of the headlines. So

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Speaker 1: they wanted to go in depth with some of the

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Speaker 1: bigger headlines or do more storytelling.

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Speaker 2: And it's all quality stuff by that.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, but it just wasn't something people were used

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Speaker 1: to seeing for the Evening News, and the ratings did

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Speaker 1: not go in the direction they were hoping they would,

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Speaker 1: so they claim, by all accounts, he is leaving on

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Speaker 1: his own.

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Speaker 3: This is a personal decision.

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Speaker 1: But of course this comes in terms of timing wise

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Speaker 1: at a very a major crossroads at CBS News is

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Speaker 1: that they are they have been changing significant changes in

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Speaker 1: leadership and potentially in the direction of their news gap.

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Speaker 1: And so we've seen several prominent folks step down resign

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Speaker 1: jobs that nobody would ever normally resign voluntarily.

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Speaker 3: However, they all claimed to be voluntary.

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Speaker 2: Well, the guy from stepped down from sixty minutes, Yes

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Speaker 2: he Bill Owens didn't he I thought. He went out

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Speaker 2: suggesting that no, I can't roll like this, I can't

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Speaker 2: work like this.

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Speaker 1: Phil Owens resigned as the sixty Minutes executive producer and

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Speaker 1: the mastermind behind this latest rendition of CBS Evening News.

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Speaker 1: He resigned back in April, and he said because of

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Speaker 1: what he called the loss of journalistic freedom. So he

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Speaker 1: did not pretend, and in fact, just on Friday of

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Speaker 1: this past week, he actually gave a speech to a

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Speaker 1: college where he said his decision to leave was quote,

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Speaker 1: the only thing that I could do was to professionally

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Speaker 1: blow myself up to create a blast radius around sixty

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Speaker 1: minutes to get people's attention that this was happening.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people take it very you know, take

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Speaker 2: the changes over there and see journalism in the way

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Speaker 2: that I think is losing its luster. Anybody today with

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Speaker 2: an iPhone and time on their hands can go out

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Speaker 2: and start reporting from a riot, from a protest, from

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Speaker 2: a fire, from a whatever else. And a lot of

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Speaker 2: those people are building names for themselves, followings and making

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Speaker 2: good living. And then it turns out that's the way

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Speaker 2: a lot of people are choosing to get their news.

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Speaker 2: So I know, and I understand the landscape is changing

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Speaker 2: journalistically at least at least some of these arguments that

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Speaker 2: they're making. But at the same time, the reality is,

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Speaker 2: if you're getting four million viewers on your evening broadcast

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Speaker 2: today and just a few decades ago you were getting twelve, thirteen, fourteen,

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Speaker 2: fifteen million, something's going to change exactly.

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Speaker 1: And so a lot of folks say, hey, this is

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Speaker 1: about ratings. This is about the fact that the format's

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Speaker 1: not working and the content is not resonating with viewers. However,

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Speaker 1: there are other folks who point to the major changes

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Speaker 1: that are happening at CBS now News and so, look,

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Speaker 1: we have reported on this significantly on Morning Run, just

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Speaker 1: talking about what is happening over at CBS. Of course,

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Speaker 1: they just paid out recently in recent months, that major

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Speaker 1: lawsuit that Trump had against specifically sixty Minutes, saying that

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Speaker 1: he did not think that the way they edited their

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Speaker 1: piece or their interview with Kamala Harris, he felt like

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Speaker 1: that was bad journalism, that they made her look better

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Speaker 1: than she actually sounded. And so he sued CBS News

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Speaker 1: and very much against a lot of the folks wishes

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Speaker 1: in the news department.

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Speaker 3: They settled for sixteen million dollars.

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Speaker 2: He won a ten billion though, so.

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Speaker 3: There was that. But behind the scenes with all of

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Speaker 3: this going on, of course CBS News, the parent company Paramount,

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Speaker 3: was trying to merge or they were trying to create

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Speaker 3: a merger.

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Speaker 2: We're trying to sell the company.

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Speaker 3: They were trying to sell the company. They needed the out,

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Speaker 3: they needed the FCS to approve the sale.

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Speaker 1: And in order for the FCC to approve the sale, well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people believe that that settlement was basically

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Speaker 1: a way for that to move forward smoothly.

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Speaker 2: So the settlement goes forward, and not long after Trump

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Speaker 2: and CBS settle, the sale goes through sky Dance purchases paramounts.

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Speaker 2: Sky Dance, of course, is run by the guy who

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Speaker 2: is the son of Larry Ellison, who is the second

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Speaker 2: richest man in the world, who happens to be a

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Speaker 2: buddy budy with Donald Trump. Did you follow all that, folks,

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Speaker 2: What we're essentially trying to say is there was There

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Speaker 2: has been all kinds of speculation, and some say will

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Speaker 2: flat out evidence, and some say it's right in your

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Speaker 2: face that there was a deal. Essentially behind the scene,

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Speaker 2: even if it wasn't a deal, there was some funny business.

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Speaker 2: And CBS has now been sold and is the people

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Speaker 2: in charge of CBS News right this legacy media company

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Speaker 2: are supporters of Donald Trump. Correct, And now they have

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Speaker 2: put in charge a woman Robes, who I wasn't that

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Speaker 2: familiar with but did not come from a traditional news background.

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Speaker 2: And some will say that's a good thing, and some

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Speaker 2: say that's absolutely the wrong thing for CBS News right now.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Her name is Barry Weiss, and she is

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Speaker 1: a conservative opinion journalist. That's pretty much how most people

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Speaker 1: have described her. She wrote op eds for the New

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Speaker 1: York Times with the conservative slant, and she had a

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Speaker 1: website called free Press that was purchased by this new

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Speaker 1: company formed by sky Dance and Paramount and by the Ellisons.

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Speaker 1: And she has been named CBS's editor in chief.

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Speaker 2: They say she's got her finger on the pulse of

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Speaker 2: what's going on in culture these days. Some will say

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Speaker 2: she absolutely has conservative leanings. And now this is a

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Speaker 2: situation where you have the presidents, have the president, you

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Speaker 2: have conservatives, you have billionaires in charge now of specific messaging,

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Speaker 2: and they have a huge network to send that messaging out.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of people are terrified about what's about

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Speaker 2: to happen to CBS News. But then you have a

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Speaker 2: guy like John Dickerson with no explanation, just saying I'm

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Speaker 2: out of here. People are piecing things together even though

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Speaker 2: we don't have an official work.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and he is going to be anchoring this show

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Speaker 1: alongside Maurice du Bois as far as we understand through

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Speaker 1: the holidays, but it's unclear what's going to happen to Maurice.

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Speaker 1: A lot of folks are pointing to the fact that

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Speaker 1: they believe Barry Weiss wants to change things, shake things

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Speaker 1: up pretty dramatically with that show. Specifically, reportedly, she's thrown

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Speaker 1: out wish lists of who she'd like to anchor the show,

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Speaker 1: including Brett Bear Anderson Cooper. They're both under contract though

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Speaker 1: through other networks, and I believe it.

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Speaker 2: Anderson still with.

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Speaker 1: Sixty Minutes, Yes, so he could easily be like, there

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Speaker 1: is a partnership between CNN and CBS at least they've

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Speaker 1: shared talent before in other vents. But certainly I think

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Speaker 1: Brettbear even actually acknowledged this rumor that's going on that

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Speaker 1: he's wanted, but he's his contract it box is through

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't know anyone out there had acknowledged.

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, Bretdbearer himself had him. He said he was flattering.

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Speaker 2: They Look, this is a very big job. Where does

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Speaker 2: it go. Look, give will to give everybody a shot,

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Speaker 2: everybody a chance. But this is just another earthquake for

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Speaker 2: us to see another big name anchor. Look, those anchors

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Speaker 2: and the names they have and the price tags they carry,

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Speaker 2: you just cannot just obviously it's not getting you the

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Speaker 2: return on your investment if the numbers keep going down, down, down,

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Speaker 2: down down. To the last season, seven and a half

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Speaker 2: million people watched ABC Evening News I think six million

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Speaker 2: for NBC, four million, four CBS News. And when you

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Speaker 2: think decades ago, these folks were pulling fifteen eleven, twelve,

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Speaker 2: ten million.

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Speaker 3: Not that long ago.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't that long ago. They had a bump. They

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Speaker 2: did come back during the pandemic. Yes there was an increase,

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Speaker 2: but other than that there numbers have been going down.

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Speaker 1: People are not getting their news, and certainly they're not

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Speaker 1: sitting down at the end of a long day to

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Speaker 1: find out what happened. They already know they get the

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Speaker 1: issue right. But we're seeing this in broadcast news, not

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Speaker 1: just on the evening in the evening programs, but certainly

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Speaker 1: all throughout. Like we have just people have been talking

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Speaker 1: about the end of an era in broadcast news, where

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Speaker 1: you've got the Lester Holtz have left. I mean already

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Speaker 1: Brian Williams was long gone, Matt Lower was long gone.

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Speaker 1: But then you've got goodbye to ho to Copy, goodbye

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Speaker 1: to Norah O'Donnell. You know, just it seems like that

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Speaker 1: is where things are headed.

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Speaker 2: We say, headed, that's fair. It has to be where

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Speaker 2: we are. I mean you mentioned, I mean Jim Acosta,

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Speaker 2: Joey Read. You can add to that bunch of people,

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Speaker 2: these names that are gone and you think they would

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Speaker 2: never go away, but they are. You just can't afford

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Speaker 2: it anymore. You can't pay somebody fifteen million dollars and

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Speaker 2: your viewership is down seventy percent in the past ten years. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the economics aren't there.

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Speaker 3: You can't make it happen.

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Speaker 1: But specifically at CBS, there are many who believe there

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Speaker 1: is more afoot than just the economics and certainly just

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Speaker 1: the ratings. The New York Times predicted this. They said

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Speaker 1: that Dickerson's departure is the first sign of what is

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Speaker 1: expected to be a major shakeup at CBS News under

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Speaker 1: its new corporate owners, and part of that departure already

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Speaker 1: began a few months ago. Welcome back, as we talk

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Speaker 1: about this major shakeup at CBS News. CBS Evening News

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Speaker 1: co anchor John Dickerson announced that he is leaving the network.

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Speaker 1: He will have some of his final shows right around

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Speaker 1: the holidays at CBS News and then he is out

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Speaker 1: of there. This is the first major talent that we've

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Speaker 1: seen depart CBS News, but certainly we have seen some

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Speaker 1: important people who make major decisions at this network leave

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Speaker 1: over the last few months. Given the changing landscape at

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Speaker 1: CBS News, I guess it began really back in April

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Speaker 1: with Bill Owens, the former sixty Minutes executive producer who

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Speaker 1: resigned in protest, and he made no bones about why

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Speaker 1: he was leaving the network.

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Speaker 2: Look, I commend anybody who does. That's just that is

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Speaker 2: the job. You tell any ghost, talk to any producer

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Speaker 2: who is a hard news producer in this country, name

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Speaker 2: three jobs. The ultimate they would name that job the

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Speaker 2: executive producer of sixty minutes. And look, God, we don't

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Speaker 2: know enough about We hear things kind of trickle out

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Speaker 2: about what's happening behind the scenes, but you can only

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Speaker 2: imagine how that feels in that place. That is a

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Speaker 2: more storied place, I guess in the journalism than the others.

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Speaker 3: And it's the only place actually that I haven't worked.

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Speaker 3: You've never worked. Have you ever worked for a CBS station,

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Speaker 3: CBS affiliate.

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Speaker 2: An affiliate, it wasn't owned and operator, but in Little

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Speaker 2: Rocky it was a CBS station.

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Speaker 1: But this that is that was at least the the

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Speaker 1: place for journalism with a capital J, I guess would

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Speaker 1: be a good way to put it. So the following month,

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Speaker 1: remember CBS News President and chief executive officer Wendy McMahon

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Speaker 1: resigned in May, and she said her quote was, it

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Speaker 1: became clear the company and I did not agree on

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Speaker 1: the path forward. That was a huge shakeup again a

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Speaker 1: job that she hadn't had for very long. She came

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Speaker 1: over from ABC News and there were high hopes about

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Speaker 1: what she could do and bring to the news division.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people respected her and had

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Speaker 2: high hopes. And yeah, that fizzled as well.

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Speaker 3: Very much so.

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Speaker 1: And then just this month, Claudia Milney you might not

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Speaker 1: know her name, but she oversaw standard and practices at CBS.

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Speaker 1: She resigned for personal reasons. Standards and practices we know

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Speaker 1: a little bit about working with them, but they really

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Speaker 1: uphold the journalistic standards of a news organization and hold

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Speaker 1: you to it.

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Speaker 2: And look, there's turn on some of this. I know

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Speaker 2: that people are piecing it together and sometimes your political

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Speaker 2: leanings make you feel about it one way or another.

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Speaker 2: There's always Look, there is turmoil in this industry, and

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Speaker 2: if you're in it long enough. Either you're going to

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Speaker 2: go through some cycle where new people come in and

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Speaker 2: then everybody's nervous about the new leadership. Who's going to

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Speaker 2: be on the way out. They're going through that turmoil

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Speaker 2: right now. The extra part about this is not just

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Speaker 2: a matter of who the new people want to leave,

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Speaker 2: who they want to stay, who they want to bring in.

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Speaker 2: It's a matter of where editorially do they want to

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Speaker 2: take us. And I think that's for god hell, people

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Speaker 2: that work there, people who don't work there, including us,

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Speaker 2: everybody in journalism would be concerned about absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And people are also pointing to the cancelation of the

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Speaker 1: Late Show with Stephen Colbert. They're put that in with

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Speaker 1: all of these Well, these are resignations. He was actually

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Speaker 1: his show was canceled, so it wasn't on his terms.

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Speaker 1: He didn't choose this, and I think that is of

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Speaker 1: note too. You point to the turmoil and people, Yes,

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Speaker 1: we have all been in newsrooms over the years where

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Speaker 1: new management comes in, a new news director comes in

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Speaker 1: and they want to put their stamp on it, and

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Speaker 1: they want to change things up and put things in

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Speaker 1: a different direction, put different people in different positions. But

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Speaker 1: this has been unusual in that we've seen so many

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Speaker 1: folks resign jobs. They're not getting fired, they're not being

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Speaker 1: pushed out, They're leaving for whatever reason on their own terms,

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Speaker 1: and they're not really talking about it too often. Obviously

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Speaker 1: Bill Owens has been speaking, But for the most part,

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Speaker 1: people are being respectful and just ending things on their terms.

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Speaker 1: And that's what we're potentially seeing here with John Dickerson.

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Speaker 2: Whatever he look he's had a long career. If he

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Speaker 2: wants to go chill, wants to go relax, knock yourself

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Speaker 2: out and do it for whatever reason he decided to

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Speaker 2: make this. If he wants to talk about it more later,

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Speaker 2: that is great, But I would give I don't know

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Speaker 2: anything about Barry Weisse. I don't know anything about this

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Speaker 2: lady other than what I read and what other people say.

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Speaker 2: But that's not good enough for me. I will wait

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Speaker 2: to see, yeah, wait and see what she does how

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Speaker 2: she does, and you just never know the direction it's

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Speaker 2: going to go with. You could certainly understand as well

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Speaker 2: why some people say it does look good.

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Speaker 3: Correct right now, correct, it doesn't look good.

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Speaker 1: But there are a lot of reasons why, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of factors potentially that went into these decisions, including

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Speaker 1: John Dickerson's decision to leave CBS News, but we certainly

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Speaker 1: wish him the best. He's had a remarkable career. His

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Speaker 1: mother was the first. I didn't realize that she was

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Speaker 1: the first female correspondent for CBS News in nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: Nancy Dickerson. So he has family legacy at CBS. And

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Speaker 1: the nice thing for him, I would say that he

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Speaker 1: gets to leave on top, and he gets to make

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Speaker 1: the call, and he is.

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Speaker 3: Being and he will be remembered and honored.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to make it sound like he died,

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Speaker 1: but certainly the next few weeks and certainly leading up

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Speaker 1: until his final broadcast, you will and we will all

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Speaker 1: get to see more of the mark and the impact

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Speaker 1: he's had in this industry.

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Speaker 2: That's great. They say they're going to honor him, and

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Speaker 2: so he'll be there. So it's good he can ride

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Speaker 2: out this that detail. When I read that about his moms,

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Speaker 2: I didn't know it before this either. That made me sad.

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Speaker 2: I think he's at this place, you know how, this

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Speaker 2: is not just a place to him, This meant something.

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Speaker 2: His mom is a history maker at that place. Maybe

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Speaker 2: he does feel like he's going out on top or

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Speaker 2: his own terms, or maybe there's a part of him

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Speaker 2: that's just disgusted that this is the place he's in

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Speaker 2: and has to do it. Also had to consider the

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Speaker 2: possibility not not wink wink and nudge nudge. He might

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Speaker 2: have been told do this or correct, we're going to

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Speaker 2: push you out, but we do not know that. We

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Speaker 2: don't have answers. So what we know for a fact,

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Speaker 2: the guy's had a hell of a career. Congrats to

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Speaker 2: him for what he's doing. The rats were getting out

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Speaker 2: in this way, and if it's some semblance that he

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Speaker 2: got to, I guess hold on to some bit of dignity. Right.

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Speaker 2: If he's happy with his decision, then I applaud him.

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Speaker 3: It's wonderful to be able to leave on your own terms.

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Speaker 1: And you know you mentioned he's a good writer, so

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Speaker 1: we could have a book to read in the future.

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Speaker 1: I would think that's highly likely. All right, Thank you

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Speaker 1: all for listening to us. We always appreciate it. I

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Speaker 1: made me roback alongside T. J.

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Speaker 3: Holmes. We will talk to you soon.