1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome stuff. Never 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 1: told you production of by Heart Radio, and today we're 3 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: coming in Swinging in the new year. We are talking 4 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: about divorce in the United States and specifically how it 5 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: impacts women. It is a topic we have been meaning 6 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: to do for a while. I appreciate so much your 7 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: patients because a lot of times I'll be like, yes, 8 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: we're gonna do that, and then a year later and like, 9 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: here we finally are We do take care your suggestions. 10 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: We absolutely do. Sometimes it just takes us a minute. 11 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: And several of you have written in about it and 12 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: thank you for sharing your experiences about your divorce. And 13 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: recently I have gotten so many cold call emails about it. 14 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: This is what we call emails where people are like, 15 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: you should do a topic on this, and I was 16 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: getting so many about divorce. I didn't know that the 17 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: first Monday of January is divorce day? Did you know that? 18 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 2: I did not know. That seems so sad at the 19 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: same time, why. 20 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: I'm depending on you, Samanthy. You're the one who tells 21 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 1: me about cuffings. Heason. I don't know, but I based 22 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: on what I read, which, by the way, as of recording. 23 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: Divorce Day was this past Monday. People hold off on 24 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: getting the divorce until after the holidays, especially if they 25 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: have kids, so it's sort of the it's a new year. 26 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: I'm done with this. I would like to move on. 27 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: Situation disclaimer. We are not lawyers. Neither of us have 28 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: ever been married. Unless you have something to tell me. 29 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 3: Unless you have something to tell me, no, between the 30 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 3: two of us, you would be treated into a marriage. 31 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: Before I was. 32 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: I've been proposed to more than one, I'm sure, but 33 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: I have never ever ever been married. I do have 34 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: a friend who surprised me that she had been married. 35 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: I didn't know that. My dad also was married before 36 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 1: my mom, and I didn't know that. But anyway, I 37 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: do not get your legal advice from a podcast. 38 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 2: Please God, don't do it. 39 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: Don't do it, even if it's a legal podcast. No, 40 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: just look up other films. 41 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 3: Different states have different outlines of yes they're allowed to do. 42 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. So originally I wanted to do how 43 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: to get a divorce like step by step. I didn't 44 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: realize how vastly that varies in the United States. So 45 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: we're going to put that on hold for a minute. 46 00:02:57,880 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: I do want to come back and talk about it. 47 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: Because this is a huge topic. We are primarily focusing 48 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: on the US. Listeners from other countries please write in, 49 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: I'm really curious and yeah, we're definitely gonna have to 50 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: revisit it because the history of marriage, the religious aspects, 51 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: the legal aspects, how it has changed, and how it 52 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: hasn't changing. Your insurance, is your finance, is maybe your name, 53 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: your will, splitting your assets if you have them, child custody, 54 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: the history of racism, of homophobia, of ableism. See our 55 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: recent episode on disability and marriage. Like it's there's so 56 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: much to unpack in this episode. We have done past 57 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: episodes on some of these issues, but just know there 58 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: are so many of these histories and influences enshrined in 59 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: our laws in the US that still remain when you're 60 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: trying to get a divorce. We are going to touch 61 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: on LGBTQ plus divorce, but briefly, that's a whole separate 62 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: episode in itself, And frankly, when I was researching it, 63 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: I mostly just got law websites that I I wasn't 64 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: sure I could trustfully, to be honest, and that's not 65 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: a great place to be in when you're trying to 66 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: get a divorce. Yeah, so today we are mostly going 67 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: to be talking about divorce in the heteronormative sense. You 68 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: can't see our book where we did a chapter on 69 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: the legalization of gay marriage and all of the conversation 70 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: arguments about that, so check that out. You can also 71 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: see the episode we did on Glennon Doyle's book Untamed, 72 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: and you can see our episode on some research that 73 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: does single women are happier. Another thing to keep in 74 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: mind as we go through this, and we are going 75 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: to expound on it more, but divorce is hard emotionally, financially, legally, 76 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: it takes up a lot of your time. Sometimes legally 77 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: as in by law, it takes up a lot of 78 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: your time. But it's not always bad, and we often 79 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: frame it as a failure, especially for women. And you 80 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: can see our Religious Trauma episode on divorce for more 81 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: about that. Oh my, sometimes it is a good thing. 82 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt or it isn't difficult, 83 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: but sometimes it's a net positive. On top of that, 84 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 1: marriage isn't bad. Many people have happy marriages, but marriage 85 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: has historically systemically favored men. And yes, the Internet will 86 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,559 Speaker 1: tell you otherwise we will talk about that more later. 87 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: I personally haven't. I don't have a lot of experience 88 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: with divorce other than a friend, one of my very 89 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: close friends, her parents got divorced and it was really emotional. 90 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: I at one time, which I'll talk about a bit 91 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: more later, really wanted my parents to get a divorce. 92 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: I thought it would have been better. But through media, 93 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: I will say, I thought it was a negative thing. 94 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: I thought it was always bad. And through doing this research, 95 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: I have read many accounts by women where that is 96 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: not the case. But what about your Samantha, do you 97 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: have experience thoughts? Before we get into. 98 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 3: This experienced thoughts, I will say, as a person who 99 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 3: did work for CPS to help protective services man, if 100 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,679 Speaker 3: you don't know if your marriage is not gonna last, 101 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 3: or if you have doubts about your marriage, don't have children, Well, like, 102 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 3: that's the way they use a lot of cases, especially 103 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 3: when it comes to divorce, the way that children are 104 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 3: used to manipulate a lot of honestly women, I mean 105 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 3: both both sides. I guess we can say both sides, 106 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 3: but like we know that, uh, it's doing pregnancy and 107 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 3: divorce that is the highest risk for the death of 108 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 3: a spouse, the woman, specifically the wife. So like all 109 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 3: of these things and even with growing up in a 110 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 3: household that said, you do not divorce no matter what, 111 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 3: no matter what, like the only reason is for cheating, 112 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 3: and even that you need witnesses to the cheating, and 113 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 3: like he has to agree to the divorce as well, 114 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 3: biblical level of like how to get a divorce is 115 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 3: insane anyway, but like really coming and understanding as a 116 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 3: person who didn't have many relationships growing up, that wasn't 117 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 3: the most important thing for me watching family members around 118 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 3: me really trying to stick to that, even like condoning 119 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 3: that life, Oh gave me the biggest dick. So I 120 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 3: will say, as gross and as hard as divorce can 121 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 3: fill or you know, break ups, but divorce is a 122 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 3: whole different conversation. Being stuck in a miserable relationship where 123 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 3: you feel like you're trapped is even worse. And I 124 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 3: can't imagine fifty sixty years ago when people were really 125 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 3: really harping on that you have to stay together no 126 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 3: matter what is death do you part, even if it's 127 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 3: your death that he caused or they caused, Like it 128 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 3: doesn't matter, it's so absurd. I'm glad to see that 129 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 3: narrative changing a bit. I know everybody's still harping onto 130 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: the but the divorce and the fifty and his cause 131 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 3: of sin. 132 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, but with that, I think. 133 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 3: Marriage is not overrated, but it's not for everyone. And 134 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 3: I think that's a great reminder. This episode is a 135 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 3: good reminder things changed. 136 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: That's what I'll also say. Yeah, and we're gonna get 137 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: into that because, as I said, this is a huge topic. 138 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: This is actually more of a kind of an update 139 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: on where divorce is in the United States, which we 140 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: are going to talk about kind of differences that are 141 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: really interesting between breakups and divorce when it comes to gender, 142 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: because you know, divorce involves you going to core to 143 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: file a document to like dissolve your marriage legally. It's 144 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: actually pretty difficult to track divorce rates in the US, 145 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: and that's not even accounting for separated couples, because for 146 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: a lot of reasons, people will separate but not get divorced. 147 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 1: The estimate is currently around forty percent. A lot of 148 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: times it's quoted at fifty, but they think it's actually 149 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: closer to forty. Most sources indicate that divorces are less 150 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: of a specific event and more often one partner deciding 151 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: to leave. And historically the increase has gone up with 152 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: women's evolving role in society. So there are a couple 153 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: of reasons behind this. Why this might be some of 154 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: them we're gonna get into a bit more, but just 155 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: off the top of my head, I was thinking about 156 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: like the history of marrying young older men marrying younger women, 157 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: so like, as you grow older, maybe this isn't for you. 158 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: The woman usually having to sacrifice for your family and 159 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: for your children, being kind of indoctrinated with this idea 160 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: that happiness is silly, You're not good enough to choose 161 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: your own well being. That would be selfish. That ideal 162 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: is kind of shifting. I think, who will care for 163 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: your kids if you have them? Can you afford childcare? 164 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: Who is getting paid more? I think these questions are 165 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: more prevalent. I did see this. I'm going to talk 166 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: about this more later, but when when we were researching this, 167 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: I saw a bunch of like magazine articles that were 168 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: like how to save your marriage, and a lot of 169 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: them were like, have we just tried being sexier? Though 170 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: I don't think that's flying anymore. I don't think that's working. 171 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: And also just a reminder, marital rape was legal till 172 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: disturbingly recently. So a lot of reasons why women couldn't 173 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:30,239 Speaker 1: get divorced. Uh, we're it was difficult. There were financial 174 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: especially which we're going to talk about reasons why. And 175 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: now that's a little that's changed a little bit and 176 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: we're seeing more divorce and angry men on the internet 177 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: like to say it's women's fault, which I'm just like, 178 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: I think maybe, I think maybe things have just changed 179 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: and women have the option now and they didn't earlier. 180 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: But Okay, there have been a lot of headlines about 181 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: women and divorce in recent years. A twenty fifteen study 182 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: from the American Sociologicalnociation found that women initiated seventy percent 183 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: of divorces. The same was not at all true of 184 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: non marital breakups, which is interesting. A twenty thirteen study 185 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: out of Kingston University tracing the before and afters of 186 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: big life events found that women were generally happier after divorce. 187 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're making that choice to get a divorce, 188 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: and I feel like that makes sense to me, right. 189 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 3: I mean, and not again, we don't know for sure 190 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 3: when it comes to the lines when it comes to gender, 191 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 3: but typically big decisions like this, We talked about this 192 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 3: with like finances and stocks and how a lot it 193 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 3: has been noted that women have been a lot more 194 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 3: successful because they are patient and think through before they 195 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 3: make a decision. It's kind of the same with like 196 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 3: big life decisions like divorce, and they've gone through a 197 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 3: lot first. Like it's a TikTok trend to see how 198 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 3: people are, Like we've talked about weaponized and competence in 199 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 3: this life of stuff and women responding when they see 200 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 3: these types of things happening being like, yeah, and it's 201 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 3: going to come to that. I don't know, she's left 202 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 3: all of a sudden, and in natuality it has been 203 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 3: in a long time making that same kind of conversation. 204 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we're going to get more into that later. 205 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: Share Heights nineteen eighty seven Work Women in Love found 206 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: that four five hundred women aged fourteen to eighty five 207 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: that four fifths reported feeling their relationship was unequal. I know, 208 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: around ninety ninety percent of divorce women said they were 209 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: lonely in their marriages, and a whopping ninety five percent 210 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: said they experienced quote, emotional and psychological harassment. Her research 211 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: and the respondents were attacked by men who believed it 212 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: couldn't possibly be true. That can't be the case. I 213 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: am interested in how many cases I have of friends 214 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: who have been together for years getting divorced and breaking 215 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: up very quickly after getting married, like they were together 216 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: over a decade in more than one case, got married, 217 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: broke up within months. 218 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder again, it could be like the setup. 219 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 3: They've already had things planned, things taken care of, ready 220 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 3: to go, and then they're like, yeah, by tuggar, Yeah, 221 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: we'll see. Liz Lynd's, author of The American ex Wife, 222 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 3: How I Ended My Marriage and Started My Life, wrote, 223 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 3: these weren't just stories of women falling out of love, 224 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 3: but of political, cultural, and romantic institutions that asks too 225 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 3: much of wives and mothers and gives too little in return. 226 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 3: As one mother of four who runs her own small 227 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 3: business said, I'm a divorce single mom. Leaving my husband 228 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 3: didn't increase my workload. He wasn't doing much. My workload 229 00:14:55,280 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 3: is the same, but I have more peace now. I've 230 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: seen that a lot like essentially where the husband was 231 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 3: the other child that was making it more difficult. 232 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that goes back to what you were saying. 233 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: Several studies did find that men claim they were surprised 234 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: by divorces, like she sprung this out of nowhere, right, 235 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: it came out of nowhere. 236 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 3: That nagging that you've been complaining about that she does 237 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 3: was her trying to fix things. 238 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. I read some really for me upsetting stories of 239 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: women pretty much just like outright asking for help, like 240 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: I need your help, and the man in this relationship 241 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: saying get it together. I don't know why you can't 242 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: get it together, and basically like gaslighting them and. 243 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 4: Being right, I don't want to deal with whatever this 244 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 4: is that you're doing. 245 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: Some research has found that women are financially worse than 246 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: men after divorced, sometimes by double percentage points, often due 247 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: to things like gender wage gap. Women are less likely 248 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: to remarry and frequently take on the soul burden of 249 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: childcare if children are in the mix. However, the same 250 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: studies found that women were happier in doing better at 251 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: their jobs than they had been pre divorced. Many women 252 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: reported feeling positive about taking that step the initiative, so 253 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: kind of like what you were talking about that here's 254 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: something on my to do list. I'm going to take 255 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: care of it. All of that comes with an important caveat. 256 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: Studies are usually focused on short term impacts of divorce. 257 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: A few of the long term ones indicate that women 258 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: over time actually do better financially post divorced, too. I 259 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: can say another caveat. Some women reported some objective satisfaction 260 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: of making or having their own money, even if it 261 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: was less than what their husband made. This is part 262 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 1: of why these things can be tricky to measure, because 263 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: our experiences shade our understanding, but also the subjective cannot 264 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: be measured fully but reported being happy that you know, 265 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: I'm making my own money, right, I like it? 266 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 3: I mean subjective could be like getting away from the 267 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 3: mental abuse, emotional abuse, constant berating or scared of, you know, 268 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 3: saying the wrong thing. 269 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: Type of things you know really measure that. 270 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 3: So other studies have found that many women reported higher 271 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 3: levels of happiness, a better social life, increased feelings of 272 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 3: control and self confidence after divorce, and often went on 273 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 3: to pursue creative career paths. They've also shown an increase 274 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 3: in sexual desire. I've actually heard that as a conversation 275 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 3: I don't know like the level, but like all of 276 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 3: a sudden they're ready to hit the road again, cited 277 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 3: for the new challenges and I've said it challenges. 278 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 279 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: Well, and to clarify, like a lot of the women, 280 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: a lot of times it's like, oh, she must not 281 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: have any sexual desire anymore, therefore there was no sex 282 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: in their marriage, and therefore their marriage ended. But a 283 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: lot of times, you know, they weren't maybe sexually attracted 284 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: to that person anymore, But that doesn't mean they don't 285 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: have sexual desire. 286 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: Right. 287 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 3: Again, this is that whole conversation of like what is 288 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 3: sexy to certain people? Yeah, and it could be like, 289 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 3: I mean, we talked about affairs, so this is completely different. 290 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 3: But like why people get into affairs is the newness 291 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 3: and excitement of it. That could be something that's different, 292 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 3: or it could be that you're just especially like if 293 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 3: we're talking about the weaponized incompetence or any of those 294 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 3: types of levels where you're just finally done taking care 295 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 3: of your husband, they no longer look like a partner 296 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 3: to you, but more of something that you are stuck 297 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 3: with and orn care of constantly. 298 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, and yeah, I mean I think again, not 299 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: to say that divorce is like all fantastic, but to 300 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: highlight that for so long we have framed divorce as 301 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: emphatically bad, and our studies have only looked into the negatives. 302 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: But recent studies have looked into the positives too, So 303 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: that's why conversation is changing a bit. Some research does 304 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: indicate that after divorce from a man, women may start 305 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: dating women for the first time, and this is what 306 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: happened in Glennon Doyle's book Untamed. You can see that episode. 307 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: But I did find that like a research paper, So. 308 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 3: I've seen this in persons, Like I've seen this of 309 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 3: people who have been in long term marriages with children. 310 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 3: They get divorced and their next pecture is, this is 311 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 3: my new girlfriend, And I'm like, oh, congratulations, wait to 312 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 3: step it up. Like that's a you found who you were, 313 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 3: and you did not have that chance, possibly when you 314 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 3: first were in relationships and didn't understand who you were 315 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 3: or couldn't I like come to terms with who you 316 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 3: were at that time. I don't know, whatever the reason. 317 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 3: And now you're here like in a whole different level 318 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 3: of yourself, you know, and I'm like, go ahead, But 319 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 3: like I've seen that it could be that our generation, 320 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 3: that people who've become the divorces or getting divorced are 321 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 3: now a lot more open than they could have been before. 322 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 3: Like that could be the different changes honestly timing. 323 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but also going back to a lot of women 324 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: got married very young, so I think you might not 325 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: have known at that time. And it is like I said, 326 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to downplay the divorce is 327 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: painful and we're going to talk about it more later, 328 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: but it's also it can be it can be something 329 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: that is good, and so I think we need to 330 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: talk about both sides, all of the shades of why 331 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: of how divorce can look. One of the things that 332 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: has grabbed a lot of attention in recent years is 333 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: something called gray divorce, which I had not heard of. 334 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: I haven't either, This is new to me. 335 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: Well, I think it got a lot of attention because 336 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: a lot of celebrities started doing it. 337 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 3: But yes, okay, yeah, okay, I think I know the 338 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 3: terms without knowing. But going on, So, starting around twenty 339 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 3: twenty three, a lot of articles started coming u about 340 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 3: how women over fifty were initiating divorce. According to PE 341 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 3: Research and the American Psychological Association. Between nineteen ninety and 342 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 3: twenty ten, the divorce rate of people over fifty increased substantially, 343 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 3: while younger people still account for the most divorces. In 344 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, divorces initiated by people over fifty reached thirty 345 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 3: six percent, up from around at nine percent in nineteen ninety. 346 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 3: The media started calling this grey divorce. 347 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: Yes, and there are some key differences in great divorce 348 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: in how finances look. When it comes to getting divorced 349 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: at this age, there are typically more assets involved. On 350 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: top of that, if the couple has been together for 351 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: a long time, there are friend groups, communities, and possibly 352 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: children involved. So why is this happening? Researchers believe it 353 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: reflects changes in our society, especially when it comes to 354 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: women and their opportunities. Divorce and living in general is expensive, 355 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: and we've talked numerous times about financial abuse and especially 356 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: how that impacts women. Now that women can have jobs 357 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: and credit cards, because reminder that's fairly recent. The gender 358 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: wage gap is still a thing, but it is more 359 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: feasible for women to get a divorce in it had 360 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: been a couple of studies have found that women who 361 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: advance in their careers or are the breadwinners are more 362 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: likely to get divorced? And this raises several questions, including yes, 363 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: so who can afford to get divorced? How the narrative 364 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: would be presented flipped? But also it brings to mind 365 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: the nightmare of all the ambitious woman who is two 366 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: career obsessed. She goes home for Christmas and she doesn't understand. 367 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: This largely ignores the fact that ambitious men with families 368 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: were able to do it because they had wives at 369 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: home taking care of things. A lot of these arguments 370 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 1: are also conveniently ignore statistics around domestic abuse and partner violence. 371 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: And also people are living longer, so you might be like, 372 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: I've got a good thirty more years. Do I want 373 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: to spend it like this? So do I want to 374 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: get a divorced? 375 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 3: Or you could do like me where you forget what 376 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 3: it is and how old you are and you're like nah, Also, 377 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 3: well I'm too young for that. Also until I realize, oh, 378 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 3: it's coming up to you can't have babies. 379 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm okay with that too. 380 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 3: Moving on, the person who is credited with terming the 381 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 3: term great divorce, A sociology professor Susan Brown said women 382 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 3: seem to be maybe a little bit more likely to 383 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 3: initiate divorce, but many would argue that they could actually 384 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,719 Speaker 3: just be reflecting the fact that women are the ones 385 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 3: who have to do these types of tasks within relationships. 386 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: Hmmm, which is what we've been saying. So I think 387 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: that's important to keep in mind too, is like maybe 388 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: maybe the woman is usually just the one who fills 389 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: out the. 390 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 3: Baby, has to do the paperwork for them and be 391 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 3: like just sign for the love of Jesus science. 392 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: Oh, we're going to talk about some media portrayals soon 393 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: that brought that men of Twister. While there's a lot 394 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: of work to be done societally, we have moved towards 395 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: equitable marriages when it comes to things like domestic work 396 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: or something at least closer to equitable marriages. This means 397 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: that more women have reported being unwilling to settle for 398 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: quote empty shell marriages, especially after their kids leave home. 399 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: That being said, studies have been done on if things 400 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: like children leaving the home or catalyst for these later 401 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: in life divorces, and while they have been found to 402 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: be factors statistically, they weren't the main cause. Economic stability 403 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 1: was much more of an issue, but it still wasn't 404 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: there was no like way outlier. It was a lot 405 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: of things, I would say a lot of things. We've 406 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: also talked before about the health effects of divorce. Studies 407 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: indicate women typically have stronger support groups outside of their family, 408 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: meaning that they are more able to move on. Studies 409 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: have also found that women post divorce are more likely 410 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: to do rewarding activities they've always wanted to do, like travel, 411 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: or rely on their support groups, seek out therapy as 412 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: opposed to harmful coping mechanisms like drug and alcohol abuse. 413 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 1: But similar to what we discussed earlier, most studies are 414 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: on short term effects of divorce. Longer term studies suggest 415 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: that men recover just about as much as women, although 416 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: other studies found the opposite. So grain of salt is 417 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: always with these Social science surveys also found a really 418 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: great essay about kind of comparing the pandemic what we 419 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: saw in pandemic of where a lot of women were 420 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: having to stay at home and maybe quit their jobs 421 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: to take care of the kids. And the author was saying, 422 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: you know, like, if I had gotten divorced earlier, I 423 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: would have done this and this, and this, and who 424 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: knows how much creativity we've lost out on. So I 425 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: do think that's an interesting question of since women are 426 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: still tasked more with a child rearing and domestic stuff 427 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: on top of jobs, like, how much are we losing 428 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: from those women in terms of innovation and creativity? 429 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 2: But what about the children? 430 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: Though? Okay, so this is not not not an episode 431 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: on child custody when we're an episode on children whose 432 00:27:55,320 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: parents went through a divorce. But it is pretty impossible 433 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: to talk about a divorce that involves children without talking 434 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: about the children. We do not have the time to 435 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: go into the history, but very briefly, pregnancy could and 436 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: still can lead to death. So the person who was 437 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: pregnant often had to stay at home and the person 438 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: or persons caring for them provided shelter, food, and whatever 439 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: they needed. So this whole thing is still present in 440 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: our modern day systems of marriage and divorce and in 441 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:30,239 Speaker 1: the workplace with things like pregnancy discrimination, which now we 442 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: have birth control and abortion ish family planning tools, but 443 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: all of that is being more and more restricted, so 444 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: it's sort of going back into the whole you have 445 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: to stay at home with the kids thing. The narrative 446 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,479 Speaker 1: often solely puts the blame on women for divorce, especially 447 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: children are involved. She failed, and it is very complicated. Absolutely, 448 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: children can usually tell when you're miserable. They generally want 449 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: you to be happy. Women staying in a relationship and 450 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: using children as the reason why can be harmful not 451 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: just to the women but to the children. The narrative 452 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: also has been that women steal their children from men. 453 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: This is largely not true, but there are nuances that 454 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: get lass. It's a whole mess. It's a different episode. 455 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: I was overwhelmed looking to it. But yes, some divorce 456 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: women have spoken about how anxious joint custody made them, 457 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: not because of abuse or anything like that, but just 458 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: like having that time away from their children and actually 459 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: finding more time to relax do things for themselves, but 460 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: also reporting that it helped form a better relationship with 461 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: the father in this very heater norm of case, because 462 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: she had previously been taking care of everything and now 463 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: he had to actually deal with the kids. And this 464 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: for my of a Jimmy Kimmel bit where it's very uncomfortable, 465 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: but it's like a man on the street bit where 466 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: they just ask fathers to with their kids to like 467 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: name basic facts about their kids and they just fail, 468 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: and like who's to know. I'm sure they pick out 469 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: the worst ones, but it's like shocking, and then they 470 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: bring in the mother and she's like, oh, yes, this, this, this, this, 471 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: She's like she knows everything. So it just reminded me 472 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: of that in terms of like now you have to 473 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: actually learn about this kid. 474 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 3: Oddly enough, I've seen skiits like that, except as about uh, 475 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 3: pet parents, I would to get that content literally, like 476 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 3: a lot of them are vets talking about how oftentimes 477 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 3: if it's not the woman in the heteronormative relationship heteros relationship, 478 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 3: then they don't know the information that they have to 479 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 3: call them, Like that's the skit is essentially if it's 480 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 3: the dude that always oh no it's him, he's not 481 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 3: gonna know anything. Can you please just have your wife 482 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 3: write down or all the information about the dog or 483 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,959 Speaker 3: the cat. And I'm like, really, I've seen this before 484 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 3: and actually right like you were like what but that's 485 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 3: so funny to me because I can't believe it would 486 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 3: also translate to that, and we know there's so many 487 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 3: like I've never looked at any status about ownership, like 488 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 3: gender based on gender, but I think there's plenty of 489 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 3: men who do who own dogs or pets in general, 490 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 3: So I'm like, huh, it crosses over like that. 491 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and this is like you can see our 492 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: Emotional Labor episode for more on this. But like, we 493 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: are not believers in gender essentialism here, but I do 494 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: believe that in socialization of gender and expectations of gender. 495 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: So I think it's much more like if you look 496 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: at the comments under those Jimmy Kimmel videos, people are 497 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: horrified and they're liken't. I can't believe you couldn't take 498 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: the barest interest in your own child. 499 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 3: Like. 500 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: Because they don't have to. They haven't had to, right, So, 501 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: the belief that divorce was bad for children was really 502 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: enforced by a few poorly researched but very publicized and 503 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: popular books spanning from the eighties to two thousands. I 504 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: bet some of you know who which ones, along with 505 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: historic and systemic governmental and religious pressure that were layered 506 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: with racism and misogyny. In twenty fourteen, Florida Senator Marco 507 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 1: Ribau said that marriage was quote the greatest tool to 508 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: live children and families from poverty, and honestly yeah, going 509 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: back to our religious conversation around marriage and divorce, it's 510 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: a doozy, no wonder we had a twelve plus partner 511 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: on religious drum on my fault. It's not your fault 512 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: at all. Oh wow. But a twenty twenty study found 513 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: that women repartnering had no significant impacts on her adult children. 514 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: Other studies have found women are less likely to repartner 515 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: due to things like the fact that they are caring 516 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: for the kids, or they're older women, which you know 517 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: is the worst so who or that men just don't 518 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: like the idea of dating a woman who makes more 519 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: than them as much as they might like to say 520 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: that they're cool with it. Which was that an actual 521 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: study that I found? 522 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 3: Of course, it is a to be fair. I think 523 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 3: if my current relationship, whom I'm very happy with. 524 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 2: We do really well. 525 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 3: We had like he knows everything about peaches, so we're good. 526 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 3: Like he could take car to the vet and he'd 527 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 3: be fine. I would put that out there, but like, 528 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't want to date I think in general, 529 00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 3: just like for me in general, might. 530 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: No, I'm good, Yeah, I just hang out with my dog. 531 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 2: Thanks. 532 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, I think we're going to talk about that 533 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: in a little bit more at the end, but I 534 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: think that's kind of the general vine. 535 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 3: Right, I'd rather be alone to those who who are dating, ye, 536 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 3: god speed, let us know what's going on. 537 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 2: How are you? 538 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 3: Oh so we're gonna get into laws? Yeah, yeah, you're 539 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 3: ready for it. So, by and large, it is easier 540 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 3: to get married than it is to get divorced in 541 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 3: the US. 542 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 2: Yes, even at fourteen. 543 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: Yep, it is not easy. 544 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 3: Even if a lot of people like to paint this 545 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 3: as a oh you're quitting or you're giving up to 546 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 3: get divorced, it's actually a very long process. Uh. The 547 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 3: history is regionally specific. According to Investipedia, the first divorce 548 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 3: on record in America was granted in sixteen thirty nine 549 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 3: in the Massachusetts Bay Colony because a man named James 550 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 3: Luxford had married two wives. Luk's first punishment was to 551 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 3: relinquish his possessions to his second wife as alimony and 552 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 3: was put in the stocks, fined, and banished. So did 553 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 3: he get divorced from both people? 554 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:12,439 Speaker 1: Though? 555 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 2: Which one? 556 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think just the one. I almost again this 557 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,479 Speaker 1: episode I could have been so long because I wanted 558 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: to do famous examples of like how they changed parts 559 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,240 Speaker 1: of Catholicism. Yeah, around the world. 560 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 3: Henry the eighth, isn't that the whole story? He did 561 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 3: this because he a new wife, but then he just 562 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 3: killed all of them something. 563 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is a simplification, yeah, but I 564 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: mean it's and looking at all the history is a 565 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: lot of men being like, I don't want to be 566 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: with you anymore. I want this other person, and that 567 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: has guided a lot of our laws. But okay, we 568 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: are not lawyers, as we said, And to be really honest, 569 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: I had no idea about how hard it was to 570 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,760 Speaker 1: legally get divorced. So here are just a few examples. 571 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: And to be clear, these laws very by state. Here 572 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: in the United States, most states have waiting periods of 573 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: twenty to one hundred and eighty days, not to mention 574 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: the fees on top of that, this means for an 575 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,720 Speaker 1: amount of time you're in sort of a painful limbo, 576 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: especially financially from what I read a lot, and emotionally absolutely, 577 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: but that financial part can be really difficult. Certain religions 578 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: require or strongly pressure you to get religious counseling. Marriage 579 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: is often given incentives, but single parents do not receive 580 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: anything close to that some marriage counseling and seminars are 581 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: text funded. Currently and unfortunate emphasis on Currently, no fault 582 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: divorce is legal in all fifty states. This rose in 583 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: popularity in the seventies and eighties in the US, after 584 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: first being legalized in California in nineteen sixty nine. And 585 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,760 Speaker 1: I know some of you are like shouting out the computer. 586 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 1: We'll get to the fun effect behind that. At the end. 587 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: It means that you don't have to prove fault to 588 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: get divorced. Legal experts believe it was necessary to correct 589 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: a system that incentivized concocting plane to justify the divorce, 590 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: so like everybody was lying. Essentially. That being said, some 591 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: states require that the broken up couples spend a year 592 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: and one day in separate living spaces, which is not 593 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: so easy. This is often called the cooling off period. Obviously, 594 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 1: it can be painful and intimidating to prove fault in 595 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: an abusive marriage. Research has found a significant decrease in 596 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: suicide and women where no fault divorce was an option. 597 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: They've also found lower rates of domestic violence, which makes 598 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 1: sense to me. Apparently, in Texas you cannot finalize the 599 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: divorce while pregnant if the divorce seeing question is the 600 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: biological parent. Like I said, LGBTQ plus marriage and divorce 601 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: separate episode, but a lot of it is similar to 602 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: no fault laws in the US, but further complicated by 603 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: gendered laws and language like who is the biological parent? 604 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: Who is the quote mother? It can get really really messy, 605 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: so that future episode. And then this brings us to 606 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: just a brief venting session. Oh the internet, because when 607 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: I was looking this up, a lot of the first 608 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: results were men being real mad about how in their 609 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: minds divorce favors women, men blaming women for divorce, asking 610 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: what state they should go to to get divorce that 611 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: will favor them the most. And then, of course, as 612 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,399 Speaker 1: per usual, the whole goal and make me a sandwich thing, 613 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: because yeah, like when do you stop and think about it? 614 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,280 Speaker 1: Like men were working, they were getting to own things, 615 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: they were controlling their finances, they were getting out of 616 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: the house. But women were doing unpaid, unnoticed labor, cooking, cleaning, 617 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: chowd hearing and being made fun of her having frivolous 618 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: relationships outside of the house, like how we used to 619 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: still do make fun of like oh, she's always talking 620 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 1: with her friends, like it's so frivolous or useless. Other 621 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: studies have found that women work harder to receive less 622 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: in their jobs due to biases. So add that to 623 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: the pile. So for these angry men on the internet, Yeah, 624 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: the marriage is great. You come home to a meal, 625 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: you don't have to deal with the kids other than 626 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: like acknowledging that they're kids. Meanwhile, she's been working all day. Still, 627 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: I was working when you get home, and then it's 628 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: mocked if she's too tired for sex. 629 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 3: You know, which is interesting because the level of women 630 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 3: coming back round to yeah, I'll be a stay at 631 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 3: home mom, and I will. 632 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 2: I will serve you and. 633 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 3: Cook you if you provide for everything else, and I 634 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 3: don't do a damn thing after this fact, Like that's 635 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:20,360 Speaker 3: that conversation because from like maybe the seventies and probably 636 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 3: more so, and this is very like white perspective, heteronormative 637 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 3: ideals to like about what the nineties they said. They're 638 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 3: saying that the uptick of divorce happened in the nineties. 639 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 3: I don't remember. But all of that to say is 640 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 3: like women were working and doing the nine to five 641 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 3: coming home clicking and cleaning, taking care of the children 642 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,760 Speaker 3: because they're also having children still at that point, and 643 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 3: the men were just working, coming home, putting their shoes up, 644 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 3: telling the kids to stay out of the way while 645 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 3: they watched their show. So this is all stereotype obviously 646 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 3: according to sitcoms, but like they were living their best life. Yeah, 647 00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 3: and they're really mad that they had for a period 648 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 3: and they're like, why can't I have that again? And 649 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 3: it just doesn't make this to be. 650 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:10,280 Speaker 1: Like, yeah, it's I mean, it was upsetting and kind 651 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: of funny. They're like it would be like you know, 652 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: the Yahoo asked and it'd be why are you with 653 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 1: my woman not doing this anymore? And they're like, oh, wow, 654 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: you have. 655 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,720 Speaker 3: Whoa And this is kind of like and then it's 656 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 3: the basis of the red pill. And in so many 657 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 3: ways when we talk about that content, when we talked 658 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 3: about religious trauma, we're talking about Project twenty twenty five, 659 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 3: even which we haven't really talked about and we're going 660 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 3: to come back to, but all of these narratives of 661 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 3: like going back to the good old days, is that 662 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:49,280 Speaker 3: that ideal of oppressing marginalized people for this specific look. 663 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 3: They're like I want to get back to where a home. 664 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 3: It was a home where two with a man and 665 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 3: a wife and two to three children, and the woman 666 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 3: came in as subservient to the man, but of course 667 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 3: the man protected her. Yes, that's us our job, that's 668 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,399 Speaker 3: our duties. And it's kind of that beginning of, yeah, 669 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 3: that used to be such the golden days, as they 670 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 3: would claim, and it's it's the beginning of a narrative 671 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 3: for the red pill and having that level of if 672 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 3: we can get back to that, then all is right 673 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 3: with the world. And this is the whole point, and 674 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 3: this is the decency and the godliness that they are 675 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,879 Speaker 3: talking about. And this kind of ideal for young boys 676 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 3: was like, yeah, why can't I have that? And it 677 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 3: slips into these are my rights when it never was. 678 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: Right absolutely, And I think a lot of this was 679 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: in part missing the point of a twenty nineteen US 680 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: Census Bureau report that come through numerous studies and found 681 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,919 Speaker 1: women do have more to benefit from divorce, like leisure time, 682 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,319 Speaker 1: career time, time to relax less chores, less childcare. But 683 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: I think they took it and saw that as I'm 684 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: getting punished more for the divorce Coincidentally, this report also 685 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,760 Speaker 1: found that areas that had more social nets and easier 686 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: access to divorce at higher rates of marriage. Interesting. But yes, 687 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: the media, we must also talk about that, because when 688 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: you talk about divorce and women, there are a lot 689 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: of tropes. The evil ex wife, the mean mom who 690 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:39,400 Speaker 1: punishes her ex. I thought about missus stubtfire for that one, 691 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: nagging sitcom, wives, men complaining about the old ball and chain. 692 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: And then this whole idea of women changing or chaining 693 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,439 Speaker 1: their man, which a lot of people who have written 694 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,840 Speaker 1: about divorce have said, like, here's how you failed. You 695 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 1: should have changed him in this way. And I think 696 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:06,880 Speaker 1: that's a problematic. No, No, you can work together on things, 697 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: but that whole idea. In nineteen seventy two, sociologists Jesse 698 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: Bernard wrote quote, there are a few findings more consistent, 699 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: less equivocal, and more convincing than the sometimes spectacular and 700 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:24,920 Speaker 1: always impressive superiority on almost every index, demographic, psychological, or 701 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: social of married over never married men. Despite all the 702 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: jokes about marriage in which men indulge, all the complaints 703 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,840 Speaker 1: they lodge against it, it is one of the greatest 704 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 1: boons of their sex because they always made fun of it. 705 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: They're always like, it's all bothering me. But a lot 706 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:51,360 Speaker 1: of women have reported feeling like failures at first after 707 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: a divorce, but over time realizing that they made the 708 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: right decision and were happier. And a lot of them 709 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 1: have reported finding a community of other divorce women, not 710 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: even purposefully, always like you know, you'd be calling up 711 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 1: to cancel your insurance and like I'm getting divorced and like, 712 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I would do that, or you know, something 713 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: like that, and how that helped them. Another Pew research 714 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,439 Speaker 1: study found that most women are unsure about remarrying, while 715 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,720 Speaker 1: most men want to. I do think this is pretty 716 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 1: telling in terms of who marriage largely benefits, as do 717 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,880 Speaker 1: the study authors that found seventy percent of divorces are 718 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 1: initiated by women, but not breakups. One of the study authors, 719 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 1: Michael Rosenfeldt, said, I think that marriage as an institution 720 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: has been a little bit slow to catch up with 721 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:43,400 Speaker 1: expectations for gender equality. Wives still take their husband's surnames 722 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 1: and are sometimes pressured to do so. Husbands still expect 723 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: their wives to do the bulk of the housework and 724 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: the bulk of the childcare. On the other hand, I 725 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 1: think that non marital relationships lack the historical baggage and 726 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: expectations of marriage, which makes the non marital relationships more 727 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,080 Speaker 1: flexible and there far more adaptable to modern expectations, including 728 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 1: women's expectations to more gender equality. 729 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 2: You know, what we haven't really talked much about is 730 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:10,239 Speaker 2: the common law. 731 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, we have, which and Georgia has that I believe, 732 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 3: which is kind of concerning, why is this the thing? 733 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:21,480 Speaker 2: It seems very misogynistic. 734 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,680 Speaker 3: We haven't looked into it, very patriarchal, because I also 735 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,080 Speaker 3: think if you're in that same level, like you, no 736 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,799 Speaker 3: matter what you do, you're stuck type of conversation. 737 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 2: But probably a different episode. 738 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely definitely a different episode. And all of these 739 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I hope we've been clear throughout. We did 740 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 1: research this, but it is you know, a lot of 741 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: it's not everybody's experience at all these things we're talking about. 742 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,080 Speaker 1: But it's also interesting in terms of our media, where 743 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 1: the X or the single bomb is a failure, but 744 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,880 Speaker 1: in fairy tales your dream come true as finding the 745 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: husband and getting made. Uh. This is also a conversation 746 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,760 Speaker 1: of unrealistic expectations of love. But the point stands because 747 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,520 Speaker 1: it stops when you get married, so you don't see 748 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,920 Speaker 1: all the work or all the discord that might be 749 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: in it. I will say this brought back a memory 750 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,560 Speaker 1: of when I was first starting as a host for Saver. 751 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 1: We were recording at a bar and there was a 752 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,120 Speaker 1: group of divorced women who were there having the time 753 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,520 Speaker 1: of their lives and we got into chatting. They were 754 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,920 Speaker 1: just talking to us and they're telling us all their stories. 755 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:43,040 Speaker 1: But it was I remember being like kind of moved 756 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 1: by how they were having this camaraderie and this. They 757 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 1: were like, oh, yeah, once a month we meet up, 758 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 1: and like, I really liked it. I thought it was great. 759 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,320 Speaker 1: But they were very open about it. And one of 760 00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,680 Speaker 1: them gave me your business card and was like, after this, 761 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: I got to divorce law. 762 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 2: That's amazing. 763 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:11,720 Speaker 1: It honestly was. It honestly was. And then my mom, 764 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:17,080 Speaker 1: Like I said, I I reached a point where I 765 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:21,239 Speaker 1: wished my parents had gotten divorced. I don't blame my 766 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 1: mom for not getting divorced, and I don't want to 767 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: get into it too deeply, but I've reached a point 768 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:28,799 Speaker 1: where I was like, I think it would be better. 769 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: But after my dad died. She's been very open with 770 00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: me about like, I don't want to remarry again. I 771 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,280 Speaker 1: don't want to date again because I was always putting 772 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: his needs first. I was always worried about him and 773 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,520 Speaker 1: what he wanted and what he wanted to do. And 774 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 1: those are like larger conversations to have about how we're 775 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,640 Speaker 1: as women, socialized people please and put ourselves second. But 776 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: it's just been interesting to hear her be like, no, 777 00:48:55,280 --> 00:49:00,359 Speaker 1: I'm good, I am good. Things are changing, though, some 778 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: speculate that the whole idea of marriage is shifting, and 779 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,160 Speaker 1: the data we're seeing here is very reflective of boomers 780 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 1: and gen X, but the younger generations won't follow the 781 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,320 Speaker 1: same patterns. As Joey said in our recent episode on 782 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,879 Speaker 1: being gen Z and dating, the goalposts and desires aren't 783 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,439 Speaker 1: the same anymore. Necessarily, some countries have introduced laws around 784 00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 1: divorce that recognize the value of domestic work, which is 785 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,719 Speaker 1: interesting and on a less serious note, I have seen 786 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 1: a lot of recent conversation about being the stay at 787 00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,040 Speaker 1: home partner and having that scene as more of an 788 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,239 Speaker 1: equal partnership, like actually recognizing the work I personally, I am 789 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,800 Speaker 1: still grappling with some of the ways those conversations are phrased. 790 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 1: But I do like that, you know, I'm glad we're 791 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,520 Speaker 1: taking that step of there is value in that work. 792 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,279 Speaker 1: You should have known that all the time. But the 793 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,240 Speaker 1: attitude around divorce has also changed. It's no longer ashamed 794 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,320 Speaker 1: as it once was. That's not to say there isn't 795 00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 1: still that aspect, but that is moving. I do want 796 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 1: to say. The flip side of this whole thing is 797 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,880 Speaker 1: people who want to get married but can't for whatever reason, 798 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,759 Speaker 1: and who long for partnership or might even need it 799 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 1: if they want to have kids. To afford kids, kids 800 00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,279 Speaker 1: are expensive. On top of that, it isn't always the 801 00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,000 Speaker 1: woman initiating divorce, and even if it was, there is 802 00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 1: pain involved. So just to say I think it's good, 803 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,160 Speaker 1: like I said, to recognize the full spectrum of it 804 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,960 Speaker 1: doesn't always have to be bad. But it's also you know, 805 00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:38,120 Speaker 1: some people I read an article about, like I wish 806 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,879 Speaker 1: I could get married before I could talk about divorce. 807 00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:46,120 Speaker 1: But anyway, and yeah, see things again like our disability 808 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,799 Speaker 1: and marriage episode and unfortunately in our climate, oh, our 809 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:55,360 Speaker 1: political climate. US House Speaker Mike Johnson called no fault 810 00:50:55,360 --> 00:51:00,000 Speaker 1: divorce a scheme VP jd Vance said it is an 811 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,800 Speaker 1: salts on marriage. A few states have put forth proposed restrictions, 812 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,160 Speaker 1: and to be clear, the restrictions are largely targeted at women. 813 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,920 Speaker 1: And yeah, my fun fact tased earlier then Governor Ronald 814 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,200 Speaker 1: Reagan was the one to legalize no fault divorces. He 815 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,880 Speaker 1: was the first elected president to have a divorce. He 816 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,760 Speaker 1: later said it was a mistake. Trump was the second 817 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:28,680 Speaker 1: president to be elected to have a divorce, so a 818 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:38,319 Speaker 1: at least one. So yeah, we clearly have a lot 819 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:39,160 Speaker 1: to return to. 820 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:40,560 Speaker 2: His ex wife. 821 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,960 Speaker 3: He's now ex deceased wife was kind of like the 822 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:45,920 Speaker 3: inspiration for the first Wives Club? 823 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:47,080 Speaker 2: Can we talk about. 824 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,440 Speaker 1: That, yes, which did come up in my like do 825 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,200 Speaker 1: you need a movie about older women in divorce? And 826 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 1: we have an episode on it we have so you 827 00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:57,359 Speaker 1: can go check that out. 828 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,360 Speaker 3: A lot he makes a she does, don't get mad, 829 00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:04,560 Speaker 3: take everything. 830 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:11,399 Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of threads past episodes we've done, 831 00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,359 Speaker 1: in future episodes we need to do on this one. 832 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: But yes, listeners, please write in if you have any 833 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,480 Speaker 1: experiences you want to share, our resources you want to share. 834 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,799 Speaker 1: We do want to dig into this more deeply and 835 00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,359 Speaker 1: go in some other directions with it, so let us 836 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:34,200 Speaker 1: know where you'd like us to go. You can email 837 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,919 Speaker 1: us at stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com 838 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,520 Speaker 1: or Hello at stuff one Neever Told You dot Com. 839 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,880 Speaker 1: You can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast, 840 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,480 Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff one Never told You. 841 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,320 Speaker 1: We have YouTube page, a tea public store, and a 842 00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:51,920 Speaker 1: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks 843 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,279 Speaker 1: as always to our super producer Christine or Exective Duc, 844 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,040 Speaker 1: to my and your contributor Joey, thank you, and thanks 845 00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,080 Speaker 1: to you for listening. Stuff never told you the propections 846 00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:00,719 Speaker 1: of Iheartradia. For more pod guest from My Heart Radio, 847 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:02,400 Speaker 1: you can check out the art radio app, Apple podcast, 848 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:03,960 Speaker 1: or where you listen to your favorite shows