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Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. We've waited for months now

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Speaker 1: trying to understand the dynamics of the injuries that were

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Speaker 1: sustained by Paul and Maggie Murdoch, and as it turns out,

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Speaker 1: they're as brutal as we expected them. And today we

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Speaker 1: want to try to understand exactly how their depths came about,

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Speaker 1: the sequencing of the injuries that they sustained, and precisely

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Speaker 1: how long did it take for them to die. Today

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Speaker 1: I'm taping from Hollywood, California, so the sound is going

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Speaker 1: to be a bit different than normal, but I felt

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Speaker 1: the need to hop on here in wake of Dr

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Speaker 1: Reamer's testimony in the trial. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is body Backs. Joining me today is Dave Mack,

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Speaker 1: reporter with Crime Online. Dave, as I mentioned in the opening,

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Speaker 1: we've been waiting some time now for the testimony of

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Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists and here we have it before us.

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Speaker 1: It's certainly sent a shock wave through that courthouse the

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Speaker 1: lead up to testimony of Dr Allen Reemer. As you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: this is the one thing that people have really been

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Speaker 1: waiting for. Alec Murdaugh is on trial for the murders

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Speaker 1: of his wife and sons. So, Maggie and Paul, they

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Speaker 1: were both murdered on Gin seven on Murda property. They

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Speaker 1: were both murdered within minutes of one and know there,

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Speaker 1: and they were both murdered with different weapons. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot to unpack here. Dr Reemer was testifying about the

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Speaker 1: wounds to Maggie and Paul. As we begin, I have

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Speaker 1: to ask you the very specific question. I thought, we're

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Speaker 1: at trial, You're gonna show us pictures. We're gonna see

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Speaker 1: the pictures of everything that's going on with Paul and

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Speaker 1: Maggie Murdock and what they did. First though, Dr Remer

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Speaker 1: used poster boards of male and female diagrams. Why would

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Speaker 1: that happen, Joe, when we look at autopsy photography first off,

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Speaker 1: for those that are not familiar with the trauma at all,

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Speaker 1: and you keep in mind, this is being used as

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Speaker 1: a descriptor as an illustrative aid for a jury that

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Speaker 1: is comprised of layman. Maybe there's a nurse on there,

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Speaker 1: maybe somebody served as an e M T at some

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Speaker 1: point in tom. But when you begin to get it

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Speaker 1: into this find of detail, when you're talking about trauma.

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Speaker 1: It looks like somebody's nightmare, you know, when you're looking

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Speaker 1: at this tissue that's twisted and blown apart, and you

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Speaker 1: can't pick out specific anatomical landmarks. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: it goes to orientation, a lot of it goes to

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Speaker 1: the idea of the extent of the trauma. And Dave,

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I've seen it. I've seen it

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Speaker 1: done kind of both ways over the years. I've seen

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Speaker 1: people demonstrate with photography and then they fall back to

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Speaker 1: a diagram, an anatomical diagram, And those diagrams that they're

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Speaker 1: using in court are specifically blow ups of what's used

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Speaker 1: at autopsy, where you have a silhouette where it's drawn

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Speaker 1: out and you can kind of appreciate it. But in

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Speaker 1: this case, they kind of flipped the script. They presented

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Speaker 1: this thing in court and she's got these two diagrams

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Speaker 1: up on an easel. We go with paulse first, which

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Speaker 1: these injuries are just beyond the pale when you begin

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Speaker 1: to consider we're talking about two shotgun to last, and

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Speaker 1: so the jury is looking they're looking at these diagrams,

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Speaker 1: which are essentially kind of like outlines of bodies, and

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Speaker 1: they're seeing it from a clean perspective. Okay, So when

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Speaker 1: you see it from a clean perspective, and you can

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Speaker 1: begin to see, okay, well that's his shoulder, that's the

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Speaker 1: side of his head, that's his chest, this is his back,

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff, and you begin to see these

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Speaker 1: little defects because she's drawing with both a red and

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Speaker 1: a black marker. The red, I think was indicative of

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Speaker 1: entrance wounds, the black indicative of eggsit wounds. Suddenly the

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Speaker 1: jury has an orientation to anatomy here. Okay. Then it's

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Speaker 1: at that point in time, after she's gone through this,

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Speaker 1: she's talking about direction of fire and she goes into

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Speaker 1: great detail about all of these elements. That's when the

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Speaker 1: prosecution introduces the graphic photographs, which you know, by all

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Speaker 1: of the descriptors from everyone to a person that was

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Speaker 1: in the court. They were so shocking when you compare

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Speaker 1: and contrast this. They put images up with Paul throughout

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Speaker 1: this case. They put images up of Maggie throughout this case.

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Speaker 1: People have seen it in the news, but now you

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Speaker 1: see what the real end result was. You see what

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Speaker 1: happens when somebody is shot with a shotgun and essentially

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Speaker 1: a high power driver. It's not a matter of the

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Speaker 1: murderle homicide. It's a matter of the murderle homicides plural.

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Speaker 1: We've got to and you can only imagine it once

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Speaker 1: you make it through just one of these deaths Paul,

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Speaker 1: namely that you're thinking, you know what I gotta say,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I can take anymore, but you

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Speaker 1: have to move on to Maggie then, and it just

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Speaker 1: it's insulting to the census, I think are Probably a

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Speaker 1: better word is assaulting. They did go into great detail

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Speaker 1: in breaking these cases down, and whether you like it

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Speaker 1: or not, that's just the nature of what you have

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Speaker 1: to do in court when you're talking about homicide. During

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Speaker 1: the opening statements, the defense and prosecution both alluded to

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Speaker 1: the injuries, but in particular, the defense statement was very

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Speaker 1: graphic about what happened to Paul about the second shot,

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Speaker 1: since you mentioned there too. You know, we've got Paul

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Speaker 1: and Maggie and looking at both of these one at

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Speaker 1: a time. It's believed that Paul was shot first. He

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Speaker 1: was shot twice, but he was the first of them

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Speaker 1: to be shot. The first was the shotgun blast to

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Speaker 1: the chest, and dr and Or testified that had Paul

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Speaker 1: received medical attention, he could have survived that shot. So

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Speaker 1: what kind of injuries are we looking at from the

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Speaker 1: first blast into Paul's chest this shotgun wound And there's

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Speaker 1: a difference. And she actually makes note of this on

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Speaker 1: the stand because prosecution, when they threw to her on

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Speaker 1: the stand, mentioned the term gunshot wound. And we have

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Speaker 1: to understand that this is not a gunshot when it's

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Speaker 1: a shotgun wound. And the reason that is significantly different

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Speaker 1: is it's a different type of ammunition. Instead of just

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Speaker 1: one singular projectile coming down range and striking a target,

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Speaker 1: you've got multiple projectiles. And in this case, the first

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Speaker 1: shotgun wound was actually from buckshot. So if you think

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Speaker 1: about this, this is the equivalent of sending multiple thirty

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Speaker 1: two caliber pellets into Paul's body. But you know, Dave, amazingly,

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Speaker 1: this was according to the forensic pathologists, this was a

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Speaker 1: survivable injury. Can you imagine that we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: first blast. It lines up so that when this weapon

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Speaker 1: is fired, it's fired into his right side essentially, or

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Speaker 1: into the right aspect of his chest, and travels across

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Speaker 1: the center of the body. People refer to this as

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Speaker 1: a media Stynham and it's it's traveling across the body

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Speaker 1: and exits out of what's called the left exilla. So

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Speaker 1: if folks at home will kind of lift their left

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Speaker 1: arm and the area just below your armpit, the pellets

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Speaker 1: actually passed through the left outer chest wall and back

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Speaker 1: in to his left arm and out of his left arm.

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Speaker 1: Now not all of them, not all of them did,

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Speaker 1: because with the shotgun wound in particular, you don't retain

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Speaker 1: a lot of the energy that you do with a

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Speaker 1: rifled projectile. Where the bullet is spinning and it gets

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Speaker 1: on target and it passes through an area, the energy

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Speaker 1: expands very quickly, so you're not going to have all

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Speaker 1: of the rounds passed through at the same time they stop.

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Speaker 1: You can actually recut over some of the pellets. That's

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Speaker 1: why it's so important that you know you do an

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Speaker 1: X ray of the body before the autopsy begins, so

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Speaker 1: you can count how many pellets you you have and

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Speaker 1: deepended upon the type of ammunition that's being used, you

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Speaker 1: will have a specific count of pellets to expect to find,

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Speaker 1: so you'll know that if you're missing that number, it's

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Speaker 1: either still in the body or it's at the scene.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that was kind of curious that I

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Speaker 1: talked about was the fact that the wadding was still

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Speaker 1: in the body in this particular case, and the wadding

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Speaker 1: is it's kind of like it's a cup of Some

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Speaker 1: people refer to this as a shot cup and imagine

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Speaker 1: a plastic sleeve with all of the little pellets that

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Speaker 1: go into it. And then it's placed into the interior

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Speaker 1: of the shot shell itself, because like I said, there's

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Speaker 1: no rifling. When the thing is fired, that actual shot

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Speaker 1: wadding comes out and it acts as kind of a container.

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Speaker 1: As it's traveling out of the end of the barrel,

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Speaker 1: the pedals deploy and it looks like a flower and

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Speaker 1: it's got it contained outside, and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: it opens up and there's this blast of these little

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Speaker 1: projectiles that are traveling through the air. And they actually

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Speaker 1: recovered this shot cut watting there within his body. They

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Speaker 1: were able to find it. This was, according to her

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Speaker 1: survivable injury. She talked about how Paul would have gone

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Speaker 1: to surgery. They would have treated, stitched him up, debreeded

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Speaker 1: some of the wounds, treating for potential infection, and it's

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Speaker 1: amazing in such close proximity as this weapon was fired,

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Speaker 1: it didn't tear more tissue up. He did sustain a

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Speaker 1: contusion to his lung because of this concussive blast, but

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Speaker 1: it didn't compromise the structural integrity of the lung. It

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Speaker 1: would have still functioned. It didn't harm the heart. That's

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Speaker 1: kind of an interesting perspective when you begin to think

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Speaker 1: on it. But that wasn't the only injury that he sustained.

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Speaker 1: He actually had one more day. This shot that we

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Speaker 1: heard about during the opening where it was very descriptive

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Speaker 1: of what happened on the second shot to Paul's head.

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Speaker 1: When I heard them describe this during the opening statement,

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Speaker 1: it was said that is shot, his brain exploded out

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Speaker 1: of his head, hit the ceiling, and the brain landed

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Speaker 1: at his feet. Isn't that something? Pathologists have an interesting

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Speaker 1: way of speaking that many people are not used to.

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Speaker 1: When she began to describe specifically with her language, she

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Speaker 1: used the term dave ejected. You think about pilots coming

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Speaker 1: out of a out of a plane if they hit

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Speaker 1: the ejection handle. That's actually what happened the blast that

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Speaker 1: he sustained, and it wasn't These are not very well

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Speaker 1: aimed at shots, because if you're taking the shotgun and

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Speaker 1: pointing it at his head, where are you going to

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Speaker 1: shoot him in the shoulder. Well, I guess he's in

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Speaker 1: motion because he's reacting to that first blast. And you

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Speaker 1: know she even opened that. He was still in an

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Speaker 1: upright position when the weapon was fired that shot sequence

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Speaker 1: was initiated. In the second shot, he was still standing

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Speaker 1: up and this blast traveled out of the barrel. And

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Speaker 1: this is not you know, we think about buckshot, which

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Speaker 1: he was shot with initially. That's generally something that is

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Speaker 1: commonly associated with a tremendous amount of trauma. A buckshot,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're talking about using The reason they talked

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Speaker 1: about buckshot and call it that is that you can

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Speaker 1: hunt a deer with it, okay, and you think you're

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Speaker 1: going to take it on a large animal, this thing.

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Speaker 1: But it didn't do as much disruption as the second shot,

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Speaker 1: which was actually going to get this bird shot. So

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Speaker 1: when he struck, he struck in the shoulder. It passes

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Speaker 1: through his shoulder, winds up in the side of his

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Speaker 1: neck and hits this large bone in the base of

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Speaker 1: the skull that interiorly it supports the brain. It blew

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Speaker 1: out the right side of his head. Here's kind of

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Speaker 1: another another interesting little que to this, Dave is that

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Speaker 1: they and I think that that's probably really caught people

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Speaker 1: off guard, is that they described removing Paul's brain from

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Speaker 1: the scene in a bucket. Just let that sink in

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Speaker 1: just a second, in a bucket. And she actually says

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Speaker 1: that when the body is received at the morgue, the

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Speaker 1: brain is in a bucket. Maybe the people that are

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Speaker 1: sitting in the jury box they can't understand some of

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Speaker 1: the fancy medical lingo, technical jargon. But then you think

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Speaker 1: about this. Everyone knows what buckets are used for collecting things, mopping,

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Speaker 1: but you're bringing his brain into the morgue in a bucket.

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Speaker 1: If Maggie is present when the shotgun blast initiate, and

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Speaker 1: this is her child, my goodness, what in the world

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Speaker 1: was going through her mind at that moment time? Does

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Speaker 1: she have an awareness when she turns she looked at

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Speaker 1: the sound. Maybe there's a yelp or scream that issues

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Speaker 1: forth from Paul. Does she even hear that? Does the

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Speaker 1: shooter say anything at that moment? Tom, You've suddenly got

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Speaker 1: this just rain of tissue and blood that is settling

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Speaker 1: in this place not to mention, you know, the smoke

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Speaker 1: that's kind of rising up from this shotgun blast it's

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Speaker 1: taken place, there would even potentially be a smell in

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Speaker 1: this environment of burned gunpowder at that point in time.

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Speaker 1: I don't know really the dynamic for me, it's still

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Speaker 1: very confusing. There was something said during opening statements. You know,

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Speaker 1: we heard the part of the brain being ejected, hitting

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Speaker 1: the ceiling and landing back at Paul's feet, but there

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Speaker 1: was something else about that shot. Paul's faith was left intact,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know how that's even possible, Joe. In

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Speaker 1: the vernacular that we've heard for years and years, people

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Speaker 1: will use terms like blowing heads clean off, are are

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Speaker 1: blowing your face off? That sort of thing, And that's

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Speaker 1: really not the case. Things don't necessarily play out like

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Speaker 1: people suggest that they might. This is not like a

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Speaker 1: watermelon that you're firing at where the thing, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of explodes like that. It doesn't happen. There's a

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Speaker 1: level of elasticity to the human skin. Now, every now

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Speaker 1: and then you'll have enough trauma where things will completely disintegrate.

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Speaker 1: But in this particular case, what she did describe, let's

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Speaker 1: just say just arbitrarily, he was laying there on the ground.

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Speaker 1: The blast did not involve his face to the extent

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Speaker 1: where his recognizable features were disrupt it, and it was

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Speaker 1: concentrated on the post area, the back side of the head, which,

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Speaker 1: of course, as you and I have already stated, this

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Speaker 1: ejection took place, and you know, the brain essentially exited

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Speaker 1: the cranial vault, but his face would still be recognizable.

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Speaker 1: And one more thing, I'm glad you mentioned this because

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Speaker 1: I just got to think, and she was asked about

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Speaker 1: range of fire with Paul, and I think this plays

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Speaker 1: over into Maggie as well with her injuries. You know,

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Speaker 1: range of fire with Paul, he had stippling, and stippling

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Speaker 1: means that you've got gunpowder that is unburned, that is

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Speaker 1: coming out of the end of that muzzle and it's

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Speaker 1: essentially embedding into the skin at a very superficial level.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, if you took a cross

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Speaker 1: section of the skin where there is stippling or gunpowder,

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Speaker 1: you can actually see the gunpowder microscopically. You can see

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Speaker 1: it so clearly that you can make out if the

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Speaker 1: gunpowder is conical and shaped or it has a spherical

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Speaker 1: shaped to it or pyramiddle, because every manufacturer uses a

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Speaker 1: different type of gunpowder, and it's the way it's kind

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Speaker 1: of shaped out, if you will. So that was there,

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Speaker 1: but there was no soit, which means that soit arrives

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Speaker 1: from burning gunpowder. And if you're really close, like okay,

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Speaker 1: let's back up to the stippling. Stippling was relative to

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Speaker 1: range of fire. You think she's saying two to three

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Speaker 1: ft that that shotgun blast would deposit that unburned gunpowder

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Speaker 1: into the skin and kind of embedded. But yet there's

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Speaker 1: no sooit. Soit essentially drifts away outside of about eighteen inches.

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Speaker 1: So when you're looking at this, you're thinking, she can

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Speaker 1: at least give us a theoretical construct here about how

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Speaker 1: far away then that muzzle was. And these things are

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Speaker 1: so dynamic you can't necessarily pin everything to it. In

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Speaker 1: this case, the weapon was not pressed directly to the

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Speaker 1: sites of entrance with Paul. Were there any type of

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Speaker 1: defensive wounds on Paul? No, No, nothing that there's no indication.

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Speaker 1: And that's a fantastic question, Dave, because you think that

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Speaker 1: if a young man, and let's just suppose that it

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Speaker 1: is somebody that is within their family. Okay, that's doing this.

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Speaker 1: If somebody points a weapon at you, you're gonna fight them.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's just something regular people just don't do.

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Speaker 1: You don't take a weapon and point the muzzle at somebody.

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Speaker 1: So what does that tell us? That tells us that

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Speaker 1: with Paul, that there was not a level of awareness

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Speaker 1: that this was occurring, or he was being held at bay,

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Speaker 1: you know, at a distance, you know what I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: Where there's a distance from the end of that muzzle

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Speaker 1: to his person, all right, that he's not fighting, he's

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Speaker 1: just like submitting at that point. But the prosecutor says,

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Speaker 1: were his hands up at any point in tom No,

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Speaker 1: they weren't. They weren't. So you know, you think of

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Speaker 1: somebody in a surrender pose where they're putting their hands

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Speaker 1: up above their head to demonstrate that I don't have

295
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Speaker 1: any weapons, I'm not threat. That's what that didn't happen. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we've got Maggie to get to, and her set up

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Speaker 1: is a totally different thing. You've got Maggie, probably here's

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Speaker 1: the first shot, moves towards the sound because to the

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Speaker 1: best of her knowledge, there's only Paul and Alec out there,

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Speaker 1: and so she moves towards it. As an accident, you

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Speaker 1: got to figure out what's going on. The second shot

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Speaker 1: would send her running, and that's what was mentioned during

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Speaker 1: opening statements that she was running away. And as a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, there was a

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Speaker 1: question about did she have any defensive wounds? Yes, she

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Speaker 1: was running away. And so when we get to Maggie's

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Speaker 1: wounds versus Paul's, we're looking at a totally different weapon.

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Speaker 1: How do you transition, No, Dave, how do you transition

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Speaker 1: in this particular case? And you know, my contention with

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Speaker 1: this has been that a shotgun is more than sufficient

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Speaker 1: to render someone dead. And it's a semi automatic shotgun.

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Speaker 1: We know that, So why would you initiate this sequence

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Speaker 1: with a shotgun? Have a rifle sequestered somewhere else, or

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just laying I don't know, maybe it's laying

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Speaker 1: at the perpetrator's feet. They go to the trouble to

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Speaker 1: put the shotgun down, retrieve the rifle, raise it at

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Speaker 1: a target that is moving away from them, and start

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Speaker 1: the firing sequence. Knowing that there is a probability that

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Speaker 1: you might miss the term scatter gun. They just don't

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Speaker 1: use that term for no reason. It's a scatter gun.

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Speaker 1: It as it goes out of the barrel, it spreads out.

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Speaker 1: And that's the beauty of a shotgun is that even

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Speaker 1: if you can't aim well, you can impact a target

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Speaker 1: with it, not with this rifle. That's why they're talking

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Speaker 1: about a sequencing of I don't I don't remember, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I think it's either four four to five shots. I

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Speaker 1: think that there was one where they're talking about that

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Speaker 1: there might be an entrance and a re entry, and

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing actually explained that Maggie murdahs injuries.

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Speaker 1: She had five gunshot wounds from at least four gunshots, right.

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Speaker 1: And when you look at these injuries, you can actually

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Speaker 1: have around that will say, for instance, pass through one

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00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 1: anatomical area of the body exit and depended upon position

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Speaker 1: that you're in, say that you're in a position of

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Speaker 1: submission where you're kind of bent at the waist, for instance,

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Speaker 1: and that round enters the body, it can actually pass through,

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Speaker 1: say and just throwing this out there, it passes through

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Speaker 1: the post of your chest, the back, exits the ant

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Speaker 1: to your chest, the front, and then maybe re enters

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Speaker 1: the abdomen. That happens. And the reason that happens, particularly

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Speaker 1: with a right full is because there's so much muzzleblocity

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Speaker 1: involved in this thing. I mean, this is a robust

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Speaker 1: round that we're talking about. One thing that I think

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Speaker 1: of when I think of a rifle is shooting from

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Speaker 1: a bit of a distance. But in this case, there

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00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:20,440
Speaker 1: was stippling around. Maggie murdas wounds. This is what kind

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Speaker 1: of shocked me. I really want to ask you, because

348
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Speaker 1: the first two shots apparently have been fired from within

349
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Speaker 1: three ft a yard stick, that's it, And he's got

350
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Speaker 1: a rifle. How do you how do you transition? How

351
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Speaker 1: do you transition? I keep asking that question, how do

352
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Speaker 1: you go from a shotgun? Which is and it's not

353
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Speaker 1: what they're opining is even though they don't have it.

354
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Speaker 1: They're not suggesting that this is like a tactical shotgun.

355
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Speaker 1: It's got like a short barrel. They're not actually talking

356
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Speaker 1: about that. They're implying that this is a shotgun that

357
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 1: would be used to hunt with. And you want a

358
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: long barrel. These have a long barrel, okay, because it

359
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 1: it improved of your aim. You've got this robust shotgun

360
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Speaker 1: here in your hands. You're gonna fire this thing, and

361
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 1: then after you fired it and probably not emptied it

362
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Speaker 1: because you know, the shotgun depended upon the configuration, it

363
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: can hold five, maybe even six rounds. Well, you've only

364
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Speaker 1: fired two times out of it, so you're gonna put

365
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Speaker 1: this thing down. Pick up a rifle, which, as you mentioned,

366
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Speaker 1: is a rifle that is set up to fire great distances.

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Speaker 1: You know, you think about like a and it's not

368
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Speaker 1: the same, but five point five six also in civilian

369
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Speaker 1: caliber two to three, which approximates what our military uses. Okay,

370
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Speaker 1: the M four carbine, you think about that, and it's

371
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Speaker 1: good up to three hundred yards away. Dave, I mean,

372
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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. It's at a great distance. This is

373
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Speaker 1: a three blackout. This is a more robust round. The

374
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: diameter of it's bigger, it's it's closer to it's not

375
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Speaker 1: a three oh eight, but it's closer in diameter to

376
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Speaker 1: a three oh. It's more robust, and say what our

377
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: military carries, and it's still got a great reach to it.

378
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: But it's used as a tactical weapon where you can

379
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Speaker 1: go into the thing, you can fire to great distances,

380
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: but you can also utilize it if you're sweeping a

381
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: room in the military, or say with the police and

382
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: a swat team. It doesn't have a long, long barrel

383
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: length most of the time. Sometimes it will, but most

384
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: times it's more compact. So again we go back to

385
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: the utility. What what were they thinking this perpetrator? What

386
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: were they thinking in this particular case. It just it

387
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: boggles to mind as far as I'm concerned. And so

388
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: you've got the first two shots fired within three ft.

389
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: Maggie apparently goes down. She's on her knees and according

390
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: to Dr Reemer, shot fired into Maggie's admin while she's

391
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 1: standing causes her to lean over and fall forward. She's

392
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: on her knees. Two fatal shots to the head. She's

393
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: on her hands and knees, and now are going to

394
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: kill shot? Yeah, not not one, but two. And Dave,

395
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: the fact that you mentioned the nature of this gunshot

396
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: wound to the abdomen is it's important to understand this,

397
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna I'm gonna definitely understate this and do

398
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: a disservice to this. So forgive me in advance. This

399
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: would have been like getting hit in the abdomen with

400
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: a ten pound sledgehammer swung by a three pound man.

401
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: All right, So when she contracts like this and goes

402
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: to the ground, she's in a position where she's non ambulatory,

403
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: she's not moving, she's had the wind knocked out over

404
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 1: at this point in time, I mean, can you imagine

405
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: the horror at this point because she is alive at

406
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: this point in time, there's an awareness. I keep going

407
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: back to that term, there's an awareness of what's going on.

408
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: You mentioned the proverbial coup de gras two gunshot wounds

409
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: to the head with a high velocity weapon, and we

410
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: it's some sense of the dynamics of these injuries. And

411
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: you hear the term defect in pathology. They're not talking

412
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: about like something like a defective instrument or something. Their

413
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: defect actually means an opening or whole. So they'll say

414
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: or it's an injury. So instead of saying gunshot woman,

415
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: they'll say defect. So you've got a series of defects

416
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 1: that are in the body where she's trying rumors, trying

417
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: to make sense. And this brings us back to what

418
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: we had said earlier. If it's this difficult for the

419
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: forensic pathologist to kind of figure out the sequencing of

420
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: these wounds and I think this is kind of an

421
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: interesting point. How much more difficult is it going to

422
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: be for a jury? Because this is put it frankly,

423
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: it's the damn mess. I mean it truly is. This

424
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: is not like a single gunshot woman. So you've got

425
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 1: all these different injuries that are kind of communicating with

426
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: each other, entrances and exits and re entrances, and it's

427
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: very complex and complicated. That's why you need a friends

428
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: and patholog just it's not only technically sound. I think

429
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: she's done like autopsies by her own admission, but she's

430
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: having to draw this out. And that's the beauty of this,

431
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: if there can be anything to that. The beauty of

432
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: it is that she's able to communicate effectively with a jury.

433
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: Use these diagrams and show it, because it's like you're

434
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: looking at the diagrams right now, and I think you'd

435
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 1: agree with me, Dave. Those diagrams are stark white, you

436
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: know when you see those images in the court. But

437
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they're about to get their senses

438
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 1: blasted because they're gonna see bloody gore is what they're

439
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: gonna see. And how do you make sense of that?

440
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 1: But one thing that Dr Reemer pointed out is that

441
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: either of the head shots would have been fatal at

442
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: the moment it happened. Is this a sense of overkill

443
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: that there were two shots to the head, the second

444
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: shot going straight down the top of her head and

445
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: coming out her shoulder. I think that it is. That's

446
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: a very interesting point in this. You know, we think

447
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: about overkill most of tom and we've talked about it

448
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: on bodybacks before, or that people overkill with a blunt object,

449
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: people overkill with sharp force injuries with an edge weapon.

450
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: And there's a there's kind of the sense that they're

451
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: trying to disfigure people, you know what I'm saying, where

452
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: they're just going in and brutalizing somebody. I don't know that.

453
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: And again I am not a forensic psychologist. I don't

454
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: want to be a forensic psychologist. If we pull this

455
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 1: over to overkill, I don't know if it's if it

456
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: is overkill or if it is a flourish if it's

457
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: like being overly engaged in this event. And you want

458
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: assurance that this individual is deceased, because here's the real

459
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: indicator here. This is not like you've brought a nine

460
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: millimeter pistol, and you have shot somebody in the head day.

461
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: You have brought a weapon, the shotgun first off, but

462
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: this three D blackout. You've brought this three blackout, which

463
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: is a up and that the murder hogs were known

464
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: to use to hunt hogs with. Wild hogs are some

465
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: of the most ferocious animals that are out there. Why

466
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: do you need that much? Why is it? Well, it

467
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: either is you're trying to make a point by being

468
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: over the top with it, okay, or it's what you know.

469
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: It's what you're familiar with. Because there are guns all

470
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: in that house, we know that they used them to

471
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: hunt with and it's certainly something that they had at

472
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: their disposal as of a state. The Murtile trial continues.

473
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: We'll see what happens in the coming days. We'll see

474
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: what else presents itself, what other evidence is put forth

475
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: by not just the prosecution, but by the defense as

476
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: well of Joseph Scott Morgan. And this is body backs