1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Ruthie's Table for a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: Adamized Studios. 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: Last night, I was with my good friends Josh Berger 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: and Alexander Krapenzano. I said I needed to go and 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 2: write the introduction for Simon Sharma, today's guest, knowing he 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 2: had taught them both at Harvard twenty years ago. As 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: good friends do, they did my work for me. 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: Simon Shama I never missed his class, and the other 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: thing that I would never want to miss was I 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: wanted to see what waistcoat and what glasses he would wear, 11 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: because he was not only brilliant and articulate and taught 12 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: me about architecture and about art and politics in Europe, 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: but he also taught me how to look good. 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 3: I would simply say that Simon was and is an 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 3: extraordinary storyteller. So we would all sit in his class, 16 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 3: and I took British Empire with him, and we would 17 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 3: be riveted the way that we would be riveted watching 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 3: a thriller a suspense movie, because we would just be 19 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 3: hanging on every word. 20 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: Art and politics in Europe. From sixteen sixty to eighteen twenty, 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: he was the best professor at Harvard, and I was 22 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: gutted when he went to Columbia. 23 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: Simon is our most renowned historian. His books on the 24 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 2: French Revolution, the Dutch Masters, or most recently, Foreign Bodies, 25 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 2: an Exploration of Pandemics, and the Health of Nations have 26 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: changed the way we think. His television series Civilization, The 27 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 2: Story of the Jews, and the Power of Art have 28 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: reached millions. I know all this about Simon, but I 29 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: know something else. He is a fantastic cook. There is 30 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: much to admire and respect and being off of Simon, 31 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 2: all of which I do. But quite simply, he's my 32 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: great friend. 33 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 4: Thank you, Ruthie Well. I film my work on this 34 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 4: Earth is done? 35 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I were there. I guess when was that? 36 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 2: Was it twenty years ago? I think Joshua was longer 37 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 2: than that because I've been at the Union. 38 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 4: I think it more like probably more like thirty, because 39 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,679 Speaker 4: I moved from Harvard to Columbia in ninety three. But 40 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 4: they're very kind, and I don't. 41 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 2: Think they're kind because it's something I've heard over and 42 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,839 Speaker 2: over again. Okay, praise is embarrassing you, So why don't 43 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: we go straight to the food and talk about your cooking? 44 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 2: You just made a recipe in the kitchen of the 45 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: River Cafe, or you helped watched. I'm not sure which 46 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 2: verb would you like to read the recipe for? 47 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is Taliarini with broad beans and pancetta, and 48 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 4: you chose to. I think principally because of the broad beans. 49 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 4: One of my nicknames, one of my two nicknames at 50 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 4: school when I was about twelve, was Beanie. And because 51 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 4: I was, I was obsessively. I was obsessively enjoyed all 52 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 4: forms of beans. I really really still do, but I 53 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 4: think I enjoyed broad beans the most. 54 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: I love the way they have and I love the 55 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: way the color is different, that you get that pale 56 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: green color and then you. 57 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 5: And it's a tope color. 58 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, Okay, so read your read this recipe. 59 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 4: Here's here's the recipe. Should I read the ingredients first 60 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 4: as well? 61 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 5: Okay? 62 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 4: So fifty grams butter, four tbs tablespoons olive oil, one 63 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 4: small trapea onion, finely sliced, two garlic cloves, finally sliced, 64 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 4: one hundred grams of pancetta match stick cut into match sticks. 65 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 4: Four hundred grams very healthy of broad beans, one hundred 66 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 4: milli liters of dry white wine, two hundred and fifty 67 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 4: grams of fine pasta taliarini, a small bunch of mint 68 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 4: and a small bunch of basil, both torn I think, 69 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 4: and fifty grams of peccorino. And yes, what was going 70 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 4: on in the kitchen, very beautiful light. It helped a 71 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 4: bit with you just do a very simple, lovely braik 72 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 4: is of the onion and the garlic. For about fighting 73 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 4: the butter and oil together, which is never be afraid 74 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:12,559 Speaker 4: of doing that until soft, and then the panchetta matchsticks 75 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 4: go in, so everything is braizening together. You don't want 76 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 4: and I was talking to jess whom I was cooking, 77 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 4: you don't This is not a recipe where you want 78 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 4: the panchetta to crisp up. So you you really wanted 79 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 4: gentle braize. 80 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 2: Hi. 81 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 6: I'm Jessica Philbey, and I work at the River Cafe 82 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 6: and we're here today making broadbean and panchetta sauce with 83 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 6: Simon Sharman. He started with a little bit of choppia 84 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 6: onion in the base, which I just kind of melted down, 85 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 6: and then I put the panchetter. 86 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 4: In until that already an idiot, I haven't had my coffee. 87 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 4: It's so it's a tiny bit of good panta and then. 88 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 7: A little bit of garlic. 89 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 4: Okay, we never used too much garlic. 90 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 6: Okay, we don't have to overpower anything. 91 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 5: Right, everything is brazing exactly. 92 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 4: So you're not fantastic, so you're not wanting the pants 93 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 4: to eat Crispye, I get it, I get it. 94 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, I get it. 95 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 6: And I'm going to add a little at the. 96 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: End, and. 97 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 4: Okay, okay, and then comes the magic moment of adding 98 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 4: the broad beans in their skins and stir to coat 99 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 4: you fling the wine in, and then the gentle brazing 100 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 4: heat goes down even lower and everything marries together. You're 101 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,679 Speaker 4: you're non stop stirring, but but only for about five 102 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 4: minutes or so, again making sure the beans don't just 103 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 4: completely mush up. And then you can actually be used 104 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 4: a free standing mixer. Processor recipe here says of course 105 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 4: pure but actually what we did was sort of bash 106 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 4: the beans really going to wait, yeah, oh yeah, so 107 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 4: right a stands next, right, And then we were just 108 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 4: making the sauce. So the talierini has to obviously talierini, 109 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 4: like all very fine pasta. You're cooking it and then 110 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 4: almost I don't know, what do you think? You know, 111 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 4: a minute, two minutes you're really basically chanking out almost 112 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 4: as soon as the water has come to a boil. 113 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 4: Make sure you keep a little half a cup of 114 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 4: the pasta water. It's going to carry on cooking when 115 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 4: you're adding it to the sauce. Okay, yes, you add 116 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 4: the pasta to the source, not. 117 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 5: The way around. Always it's supposed to cook in this 118 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 5: source exactly. 119 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 2: People to do that, because then that whole idea. Also also, 120 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: I don't drain pasta. I always you have if you 121 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: have a colander next to you and you just lift, 122 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: especially if you just lift it out over the pot, 123 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: put it into the colender with a pair of tongs, 124 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: and then put it into the sauce next to it. 125 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: You don't have to do that thing of carrying it 126 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: over to the sink, draining the pasta, putting it back 127 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: in the pan. But you're just and also then you 128 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: get a bit of the water from the pasta into 129 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: the sauce, which kind of you know, which I always said, 130 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: I always loved the Marcella Hazan when she says toss, toss, toss, 131 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: and then toss again. And I think that also is 132 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: that kind of you know that you can't almost you 133 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: can't toss pasta enough. 134 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 5: No, absolutely right. 135 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,679 Speaker 2: I'm interested that you chose a recipe, that the recipe 136 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: has pancetta in it, and that brings us to our 137 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: next kind of starting at the very beginning of the 138 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 2: Shama household. So because you did grow up in a 139 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: kosher home and so was panchetta. But we did an 140 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 2: interview with Otto Lenki the other day and he was 141 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: telling us that in Tel Aviv there was a man 142 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: who sold pork under the counter like and prohibition. 143 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 4: But did you have it's called it's called bassar la 144 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 4: vonne in which means literally white flesh. Actually that's the 145 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 4: Hebrew for white flesh. So it's no longer very secretive. No, 146 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 4: it was very kosher, strictly kosher. 147 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: Tell me about your family, Well. 148 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 4: They were both great storytellers, my mother and father. I 149 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 4: had a sister who was She died hence I was 150 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 4: about twelve years ago now thirteen years older than me, 151 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 4: and I wasn't meant to happen. Particularly my mother started 152 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 4: she had a job as secretary to have an aircraft 153 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 4: corporation executives during the war, and then she was so brilliant, 154 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 4: ferociously organizationally brilliant, she became PA personal assistant, as a basil, 155 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 4: you know, the head of the whole thing, within about 156 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 4: six months. 157 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 5: So come the end of the war. 158 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 4: I was born in early nineteen forty five, the war 159 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 4: was going on. I was a massive inconvenience and would 160 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 4: not have happened, I think, had it not been for 161 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 4: the fact that when my parents were living, which was 162 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 4: near to the Haveland HQ in Nebworth, and Havlan was 163 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 4: in Welling Garden City in Hertfordshire, and their next door 164 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 4: neighbor was an obstetrician, a rather fancy society obstetrician. I 165 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 4: only know this to be true because he confirmed it 166 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 4: wrote me a lovely letter when I became a young 167 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 4: don at Cambridge, saying, well, you not only would not 168 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 4: have been a dom, but you wouldn't have been any 169 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 4: You wouldn't have been around at all had it not 170 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 4: for my persuading your mother that was a good idea 171 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 4: have this baby. So he told her, he said, well, 172 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 4: if you decide you should have this baby, and you 173 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 4: can have this baby in Morova. In my very fancy 174 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 4: clinic in Maryland and Wilbury Street, And what he did 175 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 4: not realize was that Wilburg Street would be the receiver 176 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 4: of one of the last V two rocket raids. But 177 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 4: it didn't hit the clinic. It missed me and the clinic, 178 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 4: so I was not supposed to happen. Courtesy of both 179 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 4: my mother and Adolf Hitler, you know, nonetheless, actually I 180 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 4: made it through. 181 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 5: No, not together. 182 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 4: They weren't in cahoots, so we were fairly stric My 183 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 4: father was what did he do well? He wanted to 184 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 4: be in the theater. He was a very theatrical personality. 185 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 4: He'll be shocked to discover, yes, but it was very 186 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 4: sad he left school at fourteen. Like a lot of 187 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 4: Hackney grammar and a lot of those kids. He was 188 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 4: largely but magnificently self educated. I mean we had not all. 189 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 4: It's a mistake. Actually, I'm going to be really disloyal now. 190 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 4: But if you're part of the German Jewish community that 191 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 4: had come around time with the Nuremberg Laws or later, 192 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 4: your house was full of books. If you're part of 193 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 4: an older ashkar Nazi community, not quite so much. My 194 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 4: father was very unusual in having not only all of Dickens, 195 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 4: all of Shakespeare, all of George Eliot. But he had 196 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 4: things like you know, Manzoni's in translation The Betrothed. He 197 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 4: had all of Honorary Balzac's comedy men. So and he 198 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 4: would read out loud on Sunday afternoons. So he wanted 199 00:10:58,280 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 4: to be in the. 200 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: Theater generation and came from another well. 201 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 4: My father was born in nineteen hundred and one. His 202 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 4: father was born in Botshan in Romania, and my father's 203 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 4: grandfather was born in Ismea in Ottoman, Turkey. So my father, however, 204 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 4: his you know, we went to the theater a lot. 205 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 4: He produced charity shows which ranged because he had lots 206 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 4: of lots of Thespian friends, actors and producers, Ralph Richardson, 207 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 4: for example, to her own Guthrie. And he produced from 208 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 4: you know, productions of Macbeth to Oklahoma at the Golden 209 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 4: Green Hypotome. 210 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 5: So yeah, he did. 211 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 4: He did so when I was about eight or nine, 212 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 4: I think, So that was really lovely. 213 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: Did he cook? 214 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 5: No, my mother was an arduous. 215 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 4: I feel guilty as all Jurwish sons do about slagging 216 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 4: off my mom as a cook. She was an enthusiast, 217 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 4: and there was something she could do. She was from 218 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 4: a different Jewish tradition. She was from Lithuania, pure Ashkenazi, 219 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 4: so they were soups she was good at. There was 220 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 4: one called Garden of Eden soup, which was based on 221 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 4: lambstock and lambones and ballei, which was a kind of 222 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 4: deep classic Lithuania, which was actually very good in the 223 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 4: middle of winter, and sometimes white beans as well, butter 224 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 4: beans or small white beans. She went into the kitchen 225 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 4: because she actually what happened to her after the war, 226 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 4: she had to abandon her job. I was there now, 227 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 4: and she did not really want to be back as 228 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 4: what was then called housewife. Really, one scary moment I 229 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 4: will never forget is when my mother she had these 230 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 4: old mincers, you know that you attached you still some 231 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 4: restaurants still have them, actually, so you clamped them onto 232 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 4: a table, right exactly, so you've got a coarse mince. 233 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 4: And when she was mincing up some beef, she managed 234 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 4: to mince the end of one of her fingers, and 235 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 4: so she bled a bit into it. I looked at 236 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 4: this with I must have been like nine or something, 237 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 4: with horror, and I remember her poking around with the 238 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 4: thought trying to find She did wrap her finger in 239 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 4: a bandage, but carried on cooking, and she never really 240 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 4: found a better finger, and she did produce these clops, 241 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 4: you know, the equivalent to a kind of kosher hamburger. 242 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 4: And I looked on with absolute horror. And my mother 243 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 4: said she was good when she made jokes, which wasn't 244 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 4: that often. They were very funny, and she said, don't 245 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 4: tell your father, after all, it's perfectly kosher. 246 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 5: So I was looking see if. 247 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 4: My dad suddenly, you know, was chewing suspiciously. 248 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 2: Really, it's quite interesting that women who don't have an 249 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 2: interest in cooking, you know, that they don't have to, 250 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: you know that Actually, if there was so many other things, 251 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: she might have been interested that in perhaps. But what's interesting, 252 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: I suppose, is but what did you actually then eat? 253 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 2: The meal? Times and pleasure for someone who loves food 254 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 2: so much, right, did you sit down to dinner and 255 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: just wish that it tasted better? Or did you not? 256 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, my mother, there was what my sister and I 257 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 4: called a Friday night Memorial chicken, which was inevitably over roasted, 258 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 4: and in deference to my father's love affair with garlic, 259 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 4: which my mother did not share. There'd be one lonely 260 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 4: clove rattling around there somewhere, so it was always dried 261 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 4: out that we really wished. Chicken suit made from scratch 262 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 4: was actually okay. 263 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 2: You sit down to dinner every night as a family. 264 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: You did, And so she would prepare dinner, your father 265 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: would come home, and you and your sister, when she 266 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: was well, love. 267 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 4: To contract the one thing I went to before we 268 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 4: leave the family kitchen. 269 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: Now let's not the family kitch. We can say the 270 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: one thing. 271 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 4: My mother did very well, which was and it's interesting 272 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 4: in English cooking because famously fried, not poached, gefilterfish, that's 273 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 4: a rather horrible graying thing, kosher form of keneld brochet. 274 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 5: Here. 275 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 4: The first time that Jewish cooking appears that I know 276 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 4: of in print is Eliza Acton's book Cookery Book, which 277 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 4: is I think is eighteen forty five, and there's a 278 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 4: little add on chapter in the second edition on Jewish cooking, 279 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 4: which is then slightly fancy Safardi, Balkan and Turkish cooking 280 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 4: kind of fried fish patties instead as we'd say codcakes 281 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 4: or something like that, which she describes as being eaten 282 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 4: cold sometimes in the morning, even for breakfast, which we did. 283 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 4: My mother did that very very well. Actually, did they 284 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 4: going to take you to restaurants? Yes, this is the 285 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 4: arbitrary in us of being kosher. If you're really strictly, 286 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 4: strictly super cooked, you would never go to anything except 287 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 4: coacial restaurants that my parents had redefined the torah and 288 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 4: the rules of casual would say, it's fine, providing you 289 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 4: don't have bacon or don't have meat, which is absurd, 290 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 4: of course. So we went to places like in again 291 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 4: the fifties, the Trocadero, which was so grand and then 292 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 4: owned by our mutual wonderful friend Nigella's family. The Salmon's 293 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 4: and that was magnificent. I remember seeing and not quite 294 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 4: believing the miracle of peanuts sitting in what I thought 295 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 4: was the silver bowl. It was a really stainless steel 296 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 4: and then you went down The Savoy Grille was another place. 297 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: But these for special occasions. 298 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 4: We're going, yes, yes, yes, the latter we certainly would 299 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 4: go special occasions, Scott's and Simpsons, I think, you know. 300 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 4: And the place was sort of just steaming, though quite grand. 301 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 5: Yes, when my dad was travagunts in that way. If you. 302 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 4: He was very much like Max Biali Stock and the 303 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 4: producers flaunted baby so yes so clash and turines and 304 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 4: the ceremoniousness of eating fish particularly. We were a great 305 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 4: dover sole family fish. 306 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 2: So eating out and eating at home and eating well 307 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 2: it was a priority. Yeah kind of idea that. 308 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, the family was food. There's no doubt. Whatever 309 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 4: one thought of the food, it was crucial. And we've 310 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 4: my wife and I have always I mean not I 311 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 4: don't want to pat ourselves on the back ingrediously, but 312 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 4: we we we taught our children how to cook from 313 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 4: the time they were quite young, the very good cooks, 314 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 4: both of them, and it was all There were no 315 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 4: TV dinners. I mean, we sat I sound so snobby 316 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 4: and grand here, and of course they'd go off, you know, 317 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 4: if they had an extra late class at school, they 318 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 4: would go off and have a pizza, a hamburg or something. 319 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 4: But overwhelmingly, really that family dinner was crucial because you talked. 320 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 4: And you know, even when they were tight lipped teenagers, 321 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 4: still your talk. 322 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 2: So when you left this home of you know, a food, 323 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: of sitting down at the table of your mother cooking, 324 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 2: your father with this great character, and you went. Did 325 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 2: you go straight to university when you went? 326 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 4: Well, I had the second gap year, I had most 327 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 4: of a gap year, and I was actually briefly on 328 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 4: a kind of slightly broken down cruise ship that went 329 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 4: from Marseille to either Alexandria and Haifa, and I would 330 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 4: poke around the kitchens there and sometimes actually even yeah exactly, 331 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 4: and just was, you know, massively in awe of these 332 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 4: gigantic tururines, some stuff that would be served out to 333 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 4: all classes of passengers. 334 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 5: And then working on Kibootz, you were. 335 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 4: Very close to too close sometimes too you know, the 336 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 4: way the way food happened. I worked in the chicken 337 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 4: shed on Kibbutz, the so called lull, which was they 338 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 4: weren't bastery chickens, but they were they were sure not 339 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 4: free rereach inside, and my job was to load them 340 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 4: onto the trucks going to the slaughter house, which was 341 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 4: not fun. In case you didn't know, and I expect 342 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 4: you did, the way to stop a chicken panicking is 343 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 4: to turn it upside down. Yeah, exactly, hold it with 344 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 4: the legs. Say that wasn't great. 345 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 2: Did you seek out when you were in that year 346 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 2: abroad and apart from me on the kobbootz. Would you 347 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: seek out the food of wherever you were, something that 348 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 2: was food. 349 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 5: I loved Arab food. 350 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 4: Actually, I had a distant relative was a mining engineer 351 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 4: in the Negev Desert, and he rattled around in an 352 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:07,719 Speaker 4: old jeep. He was an incredibly romantic, rather raffish Bohemian figure. 353 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 4: Well Bohemian isn't quite right, but certainly he belonged to 354 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 4: a colorful generation. So he was a very romagic ficure 355 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 4: of me. And he was he spoke Arabic very well. 356 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 4: And we ate a lot of Arab mets actually in Wonderful. 357 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 4: And the year then was ninety sixty two sixty three, 358 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 4: so that was actually, you know, I don't know, maybe 359 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 4: it's you know, the tragic and poisonous enmity that now exists. 360 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 4: We didn't necessarily, I mean, maybe we're kidding ourselves, but 361 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 4: we didn't feel I mean, there were so many, so 362 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 4: many Arab prints of it, so many Bedwin friends actually, 363 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 4: so that was something so long before Wonderful, your Tam 364 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 4: came along and all our friends. Now you know, I 365 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 4: knew that what was called Israeli food was basically Arab mostly, 366 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 4: or you were stuck with my mother's kitchen, you know. 367 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 5: So that's the way. 368 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: It's a revelation, isn't it now that you know people 369 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 2: talk about you know, because I grew up Jewish in 370 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 2: Upstate New York and my parents' family were Ellis Island 371 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 2: immigrants who came and brought the food that they had eaten, 372 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 2: and food was very basic. I'd say. My grandmother actually 373 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 2: was like a Hungarian pastry maker. She rolled out the dough, 374 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: she traveled with her rolling pin. But I always tell 375 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: the story, but she came to see her first grandson 376 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 2: in Woodstock, where we lived on the countryside, and my 377 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 2: mother said, do you want to see your first grandchild? 378 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: And she said, no, let's eat first, you know. And 379 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 2: that was that was the kind of the view of 380 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 2: food in our family. But when you went but also 381 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: Britain was coming around. 382 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 4: You know, all of the famous story and all of 383 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 4: Jewish history can be wrapped into three short sentences. They 384 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 4: tried to kill us, they failed, Let's eat. 385 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: We are now in Cambridge, right? Is that was a Cambridge? 386 00:21:59,119 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 5: Yeah? 387 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 2: That was that really hardcore? Was that sixty? 388 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 5: Well? I was still Yeah. 389 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 4: I arrived at christ Culture camebish in ninety sixty three, 390 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 4: and I was still Kosher, and it was really bizarre 391 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 4: because I'd stopped. 392 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 5: Believing in God. 393 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 4: Really basically, I was certainly at least an agnostic, but 394 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 4: somehow I didn't want to. My mother would send food, 395 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 4: including cold chickens sometimes, and I didn't want to offend us. 396 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 4: That was totally irrational. And I had a great professor 397 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 4: who we used to have a kind of a supper seminar, 398 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 4: and who had produced gorgeous, kind of oozy grouse and 399 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 4: things that everybody else and I would get a kind 400 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 4: of bouncy rubber cheese from the college. And finally one 401 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 4: of these terrible omelets actually broke me. And famously, I've 402 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 4: told this story a lot, but it is true. In 403 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 4: nineteen sixty five, I went to see The Hipcress File 404 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 4: Len Dayton, and I just did you have. 405 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 5: A know, lond Dayton. I love. 406 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 4: We did actually exchange letters, okay, so Michael, of course, yes, 407 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 4: I wrote a piece of the garden called Michael Kaine 408 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 4: taught me to cook. And I not only did he 409 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 4: write spy novels, one of which became the Criss File film, 410 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 4: but he wrote so called cook strips, which were cartoons 411 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 4: for men beginning to cook. You know what is parsley 412 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 4: and how to dice an onion or minced parsley the 413 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 4: proper way. 414 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 5: And these were fantastic. 415 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 4: And it was when there was a scene where Michael 416 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 4: Kaine says to his fellow spy Courtney, I'm going to 417 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 4: cook you the best meal you've ever had, and it 418 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 4: cuts to her saying, palm that that was the best 419 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 4: meal I've ever had. Do you always wear your glasses? 420 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 4: And he said, yes, Courtney, except in bed, and she 421 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 4: takes the glass up. I thought, okay, I've got a cook, 422 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 4: and I went out and bought my first little battery 423 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 4: to cuisine. There was one gas ring at the end 424 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 4: of the corridor in the student building. Cry So I 425 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 4: made friends with John Bolton, the college cook, and you 426 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 4: lent me the oven, and I made myself an omelet 427 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,959 Speaker 4: hot butter, you know, and I instantly knew and it was, 428 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 4: you know, baba was kind of creamy. 429 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 5: Inside. 430 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,479 Speaker 4: I thought, boy, you are hopeless with almost anything at 431 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 4: your hands, but this you instinctively understand and know how 432 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 4: to do. You understand timing and heat so and then 433 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 4: you can make people happy by doing it. And then 434 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 4: I was just absolutely often running. 435 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 2: And that continued throughout. 436 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 5: Yeah. 437 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 4: I only really got for myself all right out in 438 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 4: Cambridge and then yeah, and then in tiny spaces when 439 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 4: I became a baby dn I mean you had just 440 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 4: a kitchen the size of a toilet, really had minute things, 441 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 4: but I was just in love. I bought my first 442 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 4: cookery book other than it was actually Dayton's book of 443 00:24:58,200 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 4: these cookstrips. 444 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 5: I'm not kidding. It was called Uel. 445 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 4: Garlicaric and you can still find it. But the first 446 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 4: thing about was Elizabeth David's French Provincial Cooking. The first 447 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 4: serious thing I made with John Bolton's College album was 448 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 4: the Alsatian onion Tart. So Elizabeth David course was wonderful 449 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 4: to read and also incredibly forgiving, or you could say, 450 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 4: irresponsible about quantities. And then it was also the period 451 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 4: of Robert Carrier's cards, which were great if you were 452 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 4: a baby cook. Basically they were wonderful. So there were 453 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 4: all sorts of a Jane Grigson, Alan Davidson. 454 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: Everybody first slok. 455 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, yes, exactly, Oh first, like Arabella boxing, Yes, 456 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 4: I absolutely had that, and it sort of slightly aggravates 457 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 4: me because then the good Food Guy was in its prime. 458 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 4: I was one of those who would be one of 459 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 4: those anonymous inspectors the Good Food Guide. And when people say, 460 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 4: oh British Foobish until the nineteen eighties or something, the 461 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 4: sixties and seventies were amazingly brave and adventurous and exhilarating. 462 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 2: As a historian, how do you teach history? How do 463 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 2: you look at history? How much do you look at 464 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 2: history and food? You know, when I go to a city, 465 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,239 Speaker 2: the first thing I hit is the market, because not 466 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: because I want to buy something, but because it tells 467 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 2: you how do they sell the food, how do they 468 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 2: grow it? What's a market like? Have people dressed a 469 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: certain way? And if we read your books and we 470 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 2: listen to your lectures, are we learning about are you 471 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 2: thinking about it? Hotes? 472 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 4: So? I think I think very often it can be 473 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 4: quite dramatic. For example, one thing that happened a regime 474 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 4: pre revolutionary France actually and post revolution France too, but 475 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 4: particularly in eighteenth Central where they were looking at it 476 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 4: divided into a wheat culture and a rye culture. 477 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: What you mean. 478 00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 4: Wheat wheat flower was only for the aristocracy and the 479 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 4: oat burgeoisie. So people tended to eat rye we think 480 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 4: of as wonderful now, it wasn't so wonderful. And there 481 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 4: were certain amounts of wet France where the rye was 482 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 4: very susceptible to a kind of rot which actually produced ergotism, 483 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 4: which is a hallucinogenic state that in an extreme form, yeah, 484 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 4: would not only give you trips you didn't want, but 485 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 4: also would actually numb your circulation and cause gangreine. And 486 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 4: there were lots of incredibly serious reports about how terrifying 487 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 4: that was. It was anar called the Solonia Sologne where 488 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 4: this was thought to be a terrible proper of the population. 489 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 4: At the other end, of course, you cannot do Dutch 490 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 4: history without food, not only because there are paintings, of course, 491 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 4: but because this extraordinary kind of compressed population has actually 492 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 4: physically literally engineered a landscape both for horticulture and for 493 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 4: fishing and for pasture. And amazingly, this is the best 494 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 4: fed population possibly in the world, but certainly in Europe. 495 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 4: And poems are written to strawberries, and only the naturally 496 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 4: think of having a painter got Andrea and Kuto, who 497 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 4: specializes in asparagus, paints asparagus, so it's a kind of 498 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 4: festival of the stomach, really, and that's fair. That's I 499 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 4: have a whole chapter actually on food and. 500 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 2: I think that could be part two of our series. 501 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: I think we should do another one because I think 502 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 2: a friend a funny story is a friend of mine 503 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 2: his father married a woman who was a vegan. I 504 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 2: mean she was just and also this is years ago, 505 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 2: and he went into the hospital and well, while he 506 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 2: was in the hospital, he had a painting. You can 507 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 2: only imagine what the painting was like because it had 508 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 2: a lobster in it. But she had the lobster painted 509 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 2: out of the painting he was in the hospital. I 510 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 2: mean I thought probably any piece of art that actually 511 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: had a lobster and it might be something that you 512 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 2: wanted to pay out anyway. 513 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 7: No, no, for a great love, tell me one, Willem 514 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 7: culf has I will show you one on my phone. 515 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we have the phone that doesn't care, that doesn't. 516 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 5: I will take you to lobster art. 517 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: That's your food and art. Yeah, the asparagus because oh yeah. 518 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 4: At the Rex Museum is the famous Andre and Curta, 519 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 4: which is incredibly beautiful painting. Yeah, and then a lot 520 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 4: of the language about you know, for example, in the 521 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 4: sixteen twenties, this was a tough time. They darts wroup 522 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 4: against it militarily. It was a very hard economic time. 523 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 4: And not only do the paintings become rather monochrome, but 524 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 4: also what actually gets shown in still life paintings are 525 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 4: the what's thought of was the food of our fathers, 526 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 4: in other words, herrying and cheese and bread. And then 527 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 4: when they become a little richer, the country is more 528 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 4: at peace and richer. Then everything glitters with abundant, far 529 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 4: more kind of cherries and berries and sides of beef 530 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 4: and so on. 531 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 2: And then you see today Edwards having a painting saying 532 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 2: pot vegetables. Have you seen that? Yeah? And then of 533 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:12,719 Speaker 2: course all the cakes. 534 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 5: You know, wonderful pain wonderful painting. 535 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 4: People either like or don't like my writing, but they 536 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 4: will all say it is full of texture, really of sensuousness, 537 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 4: I think. And for example, this last you know, this 538 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 4: last book I've written, which is about some of yes 539 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 4: vaccines and so on. Much of it is set in India, 540 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 4: so it was actually very interested in the hero who's 541 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 4: kind of traveling vaccinato called Vladimahafk and who comes out 542 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 4: of the Ukraine. He travels thousands of miles around India, 543 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 4: and he becomes quite a religious Jew. He's not particularly 544 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 4: religious Jew when he starts his career. But I went 545 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 4: to his account books, which simply have very detailed the 546 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 4: archives in Jerusalem about what he's paying for what, And 547 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 4: sure enough he lists a craving for walnuts and chocolate. 548 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 4: He lists actually some of the food that he's eaten. 549 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 4: He eats Brahmin. 550 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 5: Food, tirelie. 551 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 4: So that was which I don't write about. I do 552 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 4: mention in the chocolate walnuts where he's surrounded by bibonic 553 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 4: plague and cholera and so on. But I suppose actually, 554 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 4: in some sense the kind of world I live in 555 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 4: as a writer. It's not an extension of cooking or 556 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 4: cooking extentsion of that, but they do. They are complementary 557 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 4: for me, I think, and more important really, I make 558 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 4: friends with shopkeepers in America. It's very important. Not the 559 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 4: man who brings fish to the farmer's market. A guy 560 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 4: called Ryan Gool teacher in the week and a fishmonger 561 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 4: on the weekends. And he's very clever and brilliant, and 562 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 4: we lock around together and he will phone me up 563 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 4: and tell me what's really been landed that morning from 564 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 4: Long Island Sound. But I also known the Italian butcher 565 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 4: Vinni for many, many years, and so you know, I 566 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 4: just go to I mean the best of the family. 567 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 4: I go to supermarkets for paper towels and loo rolls, 568 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 4: and I mean I couldn't do without them. But but 569 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 4: essentially the shopping party is fine for me. So early 570 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 4: in the morning, I mean, I won't say like you, darling, 571 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 4: but you know, I am thinking about what. 572 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 5: Well I'm going to actually be cooking In the. 573 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 2: Yah drive in to work, I think what would I 574 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 2: want to eat for the cafe? We change the menu 575 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: for every single meal. But a question also I wanted 576 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: to ask. 577 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 4: You and Staples as well. When the family is growing up, 578 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 4: actually well one of them is, and they still my 579 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 4: daughter and son who was a vegetarian now a lapse vegetarian. 580 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 4: Palpatino is sort of Italian meatloaf, incredibly simple, but you 581 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 4: have to do everybody out there cooking a casserole not you 582 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 4: don't want to put it on a sheet pan. 583 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 5: You want to put it in a cast. 584 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 4: Role with a little wine or you've known the mooth 585 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 4: so it kind of the actual meat loaf is actually 586 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 4: brazing with a little old sprig of time and sage. 587 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 2: I think you should write a cookbook. 588 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, the family We've said this, and the family says, 589 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 4: this is ridiculous. 590 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 5: We all have our recipes. You have most of them. Dad, 591 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 5: We have to do that. You and I did do recipes. 592 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 4: I was food writer partic you for a few years, 593 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 4: so then I was doing recipes. 594 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 2: There should you Yeah, I think you should. I think 595 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,479 Speaker 2: I definitely think we're looking for this. Do One I 596 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 2: wanted to ask is that when you are writing, what 597 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 2: is your what is your eating? Do you eat before 598 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 2: you when you're writing? Do you sit down and eat 599 00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 2: a meal then go and write. 600 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 4: I I'm a morning writer, so I have a very 601 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 4: minimal breakfast nearly always Sheep's yogurt these days, which I 602 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 4: love can be quite voluptuous, but it's not a big breakfast, right. 603 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 5: I'm a morning writer. Didn't used to be. 604 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 4: I used to be more of an evening late evening. 605 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 4: But I think having kids and lunch is also. But 606 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 4: sometimes you just especially on weekends. Really, but I'm probably 607 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 4: not a weekend writer anymore, and once was. But if 608 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 4: you have a big lunch. You're screwed, basically. 609 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 5: Well your imagination. 610 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 4: There's a funny thing, you know, this about writing is 611 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 4: that you write the way you want to write, and 612 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 4: then some fairy dust, if you're lucky, suddenly lands on 613 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 4: your brain and the writing does itself. That magic moment 614 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 4: when a sentence lies down on the page and the 615 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 4: sentence is just right, or at least on second and 616 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,240 Speaker 4: third go it's just right. That seldom happens after lunch. 617 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 4: Revision happens after lunch, and I never write during the evening. 618 00:34:58,239 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 2: We do want to end. First of all, I want 619 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 2: to say thank you for coming this morning. We love 620 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 2: having you here. If food is art, if you're going 621 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 2: to convince me that food is art, if you're going 622 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 2: to convince me that you can have a lobster in 623 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 2: a painting, or that you can eat when you want 624 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 2: to share with your children, when you want to, you know, 625 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 2: express time, have time with your mother or your father, 626 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 2: or when you're on a trip or you're in a 627 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 2: kabbutz or wherever you are that you want to eat. 628 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 2: You also eat sometimes just for comfort. You just need 629 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 2: food for comfort. And I just as I asked everyone, 630 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 2: as I asked you, Sir Simon Sharma, who's here with 631 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 2: me today, lucky me? What would be your I hope 632 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 2: you don't need comfort very much. But if you do 633 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 2: need comfort, anyone to find it in food. What would 634 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 2: you each for? 635 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 4: I do love this little pasta sauce which I make. 636 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 4: It's so simple. It's tuna and black olives and anchovies, 637 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:56,280 Speaker 4: and sometimes I am half little cherry tomatoes, but sometimes 638 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 4: I just use tomato paste and then the spaghetti or 639 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 4: the fatsuccini kind of cooks in that, so it's very quick. 640 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 4: Your children always loved it. 641 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 5: I don't know. 642 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 4: My baby time was by the sea, really, so I 643 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 4: think there is a there is a deep fishy and 644 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 4: I'm an aquarius, you know, a watery person. Say that always? 645 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 4: Oh in a little lemon zest actually at the last minute, 646 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 4: and that's fantastically comforting. 647 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Simon, it was a great morning. 648 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 5: Thank you. 649 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: The River Cafe Look Book is now available in bookshops 650 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: and online. It has over one hundred recipes, beautifully illustrated 651 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: with photographs from the renowned photographer Matthew Donaldson. The book 652 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: has fifty delicious and easy to prepare recipes, including a 653 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: host of River Cafe classics that have been specially adapted 654 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: for new cooks. The River Cafe Look Book Recipes for 655 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: Cooks of all ages. Ruthie's Table four is a production 656 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:10,240 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Adami Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 657 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 658 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.