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Speaker 1: M Welcome to Strictly Business, Varieties weekly podcasts featuring conversations

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Speaker 1: with industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment.

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Speaker 1: I'm Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Variety. Today,

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Speaker 1: my two guests offer perspective on aspects of the broadcasting

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Speaker 1: business that we haven't covered closely on this podcast. Paula Kerger,

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Speaker 1: president of PBS, discusses the mission of public broadcasting and

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Speaker 1: why it still matters in a world awash in content.

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Speaker 1: Neil Saban, vice chairman of Chicago based Wigel Broadcasting, explains

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Speaker 1: how a family run company with a handful of stations

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Speaker 1: wound up being a pioneer in the multicast network arena.

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Speaker 1: With channels like me TV, Wigel has proven that reruns

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Speaker 1: of Bonanza and Perry Mason can still pack him in.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Strictly Business. Paula Kurder, President and CEO

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Speaker 1: of PBS, Thank you so much for joining me today.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with me. Paula, you've been the

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Speaker 1: head of PBS for going on fifteen years now, and

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Speaker 1: I can imagine that that's never been a cushy gig.

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Speaker 1: It's PBS is always in in terms of its funding

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Speaker 1: and the and the support that it receives from the

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Speaker 1: federal government and from the public. There have been, you know,

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Speaker 1: many ups and downs. I'm sure you knew going into

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Speaker 1: the job that that would that that was going to

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Speaker 1: be part of it. I also have to believe that

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Speaker 1: the last twelve months or so have been probably among

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Speaker 1: the most some of the most challenging that you've faced

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Speaker 1: in running the nation's non commercial public broadcasting network. Let

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Speaker 1: me just start by asking you, how has PBS at

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Speaker 1: the national level and what are you seeing from the

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Speaker 1: grassroots of the affiliates. How has PBS fared in the

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Speaker 1: COVID crisis. Yeah, it's uh, look, a lot has changed

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Speaker 1: in the fifteen years that I've been in this job,

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Speaker 1: you know, as you look across the media landscape. But

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Speaker 1: this last year has been extraordinary. I guess that's the

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Speaker 1: best way to describe it. And everyone I think you

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Speaker 1: talked to would probably say the same thing. But in

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Speaker 1: a very odd way, I feel like this has been

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Speaker 1: probably the most important year for PBS, and that's because

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Speaker 1: I think so much of what we've been able to

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Speaker 1: do this this last year has been built on what

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Speaker 1: has been a fifty year history of work that we've

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Speaker 1: done across the country. So this past year we had

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Speaker 1: actually planned to celebrate our fiftieth anniversary. We were going

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Speaker 1: to do the usual things one does, pull out old

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Speaker 1: um you know, clips of people that have appeared on

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Speaker 1: public television. We were signed on by Julia Child, so

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Speaker 1: we had great clips and so forth. But um, but

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Speaker 1: I think that you know, it started actually pretty fast.

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Speaker 1: So last February I got a call from Austin Bututner,

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Speaker 1: who you know, the superintendent of l A Unified and

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Speaker 1: he actually have a public television station and he was

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Speaker 1: anticipating that kids were gonna be home, and he was

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Speaker 1: particularly worried about kids that weren't going to have access

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Speaker 1: to broadband, and he wondered if there was anything that

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Speaker 1: we could do to help. They have a station with

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Speaker 1: just a few employees, and so we got our l

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Speaker 1: A station engaged and some of the stations came together

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Speaker 1: and we run a service called Learning Media, which is

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Speaker 1: a broadband service that delivers K twelve content directly UH

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Speaker 1: to UM two computers. And we looked at how we

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Speaker 1: could build something for broadcast as well as well as

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Speaker 1: amping up the service we provided through broadband, and we

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Speaker 1: were often running. You know, actually the l A model

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Speaker 1: was uncopied around the country. I think almost every state

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Speaker 1: now has picked up some version of that. We were

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Speaker 1: reaching about a million teachers a month before COVID, and

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Speaker 1: we went up. I think initially we went up to

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Speaker 1: like three or four million, and now it's stabilized. It's

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Speaker 1: it's about three million UH users a month. So I

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Speaker 1: think the educational work has been significant, and because we

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Speaker 1: have relationships in school systems across the country. Remember we

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Speaker 1: started as educational television. It was there was that. Obviously

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Speaker 1: the news, this has been an important news year and

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Speaker 1: people I think have hungered to look for places where

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Speaker 1: they could find information they could trust. And so um,

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Speaker 1: you know, Judy Woodruff started doing the news out of

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Speaker 1: her house and in front of that beauti case, as

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Speaker 1: others did. And we had amazing team Michel Cinder at

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Speaker 1: the White House and Amina Novaz and Lisa de Jardin

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Speaker 1: who did amazing reporting on January six. So there was that.

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Speaker 1: And then can I ask you, Paula about on the

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Speaker 1: education initiative we did that? Was that something that cost

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Speaker 1: you resources with it? Was that something that you had

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Speaker 1: to to put some put funding into to make happen

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Speaker 1: or did were you able to do it with existing

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Speaker 1: existing infrastructure? We had a lot of the infrastructure already built.

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Speaker 1: So my point of being sort of ready, Um, we

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Speaker 1: didn't have to suddenly create a whole new business. We

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Speaker 1: had it and so um, you know, we did spend

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Speaker 1: some additional money to you know, embellish the work that

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Speaker 1: we already had underway, but we had a lot of

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Speaker 1: it already done. And uh and so that you know,

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Speaker 1: that end has ended up being you know, I think,

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Speaker 1: tremendously important across across the country. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously in the new space, we also have invested a

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Speaker 1: little bit more in some of that news coverage because

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Speaker 1: there was just so much that was happening and and

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Speaker 1: just being able to pivot from working out of a

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Speaker 1: studio to working in all these remote locations and so forth.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, the the other thing is we

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Speaker 1: thought a lot about you know, people at home and

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Speaker 1: what are you what are people looking for? They're looking

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Speaker 1: they're looking to be entertained, they are looking to be

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Speaker 1: reminded of, uh, perhaps aspects of our better selves. We

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Speaker 1: we brought some of ken Burns work back beginning of

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Speaker 1: baseball when they delayed last year's baseball season. We we

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Speaker 1: rolled out a lot of Broadway and theater and other stuff,

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Speaker 1: and then George Floyd was murdered and so we then

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Speaker 1: quickly pivoted and there our work over frankly decades really

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Speaker 1: came to the four because we had a lot of

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Speaker 1: content that we had produced around race in America that

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Speaker 1: we were able to bring forward, including Skip Gates recent

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Speaker 1: project on reconstruction. So UM, you know, so I feel

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Speaker 1: like every step of the way we've moved, but look,

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Speaker 1: we we made a lot of stuff up on the fly.

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Speaker 1: We went from an organization that worked in a largely

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Speaker 1: office space two largely working remote. Even some of our

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Speaker 1: technical crew who keep the entire interconnection going for the

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Speaker 1: whole country. UM, some of those UM staff members also

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Speaker 1: started working remotely. So it wasn't just the UM the

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Speaker 1: content that we continued to explore, you know, new opportunities,

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Speaker 1: but we also looked very hard at the technology itself

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Speaker 1: and how we will be able to support it working

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Speaker 1: at a distance. How have the events and all this

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Speaker 1: activity and people you know, spending more time with PBS

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Speaker 1: and really recognizing has that translated into a boost in fundraising?

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Speaker 1: At either institutional level or at the or at the

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Speaker 1: individual donor level. I'll particularly comment on you know, because

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Speaker 1: you asked me a few minutes ago about our stations,

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Speaker 1: which I realized I didn't fully answer, and uh, so

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Speaker 1: I can tell you a bit about you know, I

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Speaker 1: described what happened in l A and obviously that's through

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Speaker 1: our local stations and that we helped to enable that

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Speaker 1: work across the country. But I think for for our

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Speaker 1: stations being able to um benefit from the fact that

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Speaker 1: people were watching a lot of PBS over the course

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Speaker 1: of this last year, so many of them actually have

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Speaker 1: seen an increase in the number of people who become

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Speaker 1: members of the of their stations. Corporate money, uh, sponsorship

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Speaker 1: money has has been harder, and for any station that

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Speaker 1: has been raising money around events and so forth, that

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Speaker 1: also has been harder. So I would say it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a mixed story. But I

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Speaker 1: look a year ago, I was really prepared that things

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Speaker 1: were just going to go off the cliff and that

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Speaker 1: because I mean, who knew where all of this was

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Speaker 1: was heading, and um, we were very much focused on

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Speaker 1: a few things. Is just making sure that we were

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Speaker 1: delivering all the core activities that stations really needed. We

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Speaker 1: obviously we're looking very carefully at our pipeline and we

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Speaker 1: do work well in advance. So we were in again

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Speaker 1: in a different position than some of the networks who

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Speaker 1: got caught scrambling a bit to phil broadcast. But we

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Speaker 1: had a pretty rich pipeline. It's not to say we

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Speaker 1: weren't impacted, and we were in some of our programs

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Speaker 1: like Called the Midwife, which is um a drama presentation,

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Speaker 1: has gotten pushed out, and Road Show did not take

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Speaker 1: this past year because they you know, they couldn't, and

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Speaker 1: so um and so there were There are definitely series

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Speaker 1: that have been impacted. But I think for the most part,

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Speaker 1: we've had a pretty strong season of fresh content and

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Speaker 1: the stations I think part of it is because of

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Speaker 1: all the education work they were doing. Part of it

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Speaker 1: because people were watching and we had really strong content.

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Speaker 1: Um knock on wood. It's been a it's been a

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Speaker 1: reasonably good year. Not for all stations. Some really have

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Speaker 1: have had a deeper impact. Some areas that were affected

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Speaker 1: deeper than others clearly have. But I think for the

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Speaker 1: most part, you know, sort of fingers across we've never

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Speaker 1: been a watching and funding it public products. Right, it's

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Speaker 1: the only one anyone to think the dollars just pouring

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Speaker 1: right in. But right, But it's very different than I

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Speaker 1: thought it was going to be the case that we

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Speaker 1: were going to look at stations who were going to

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Speaker 1: face existential, you know, crises moving forward. I think we're

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Speaker 1: I think we're you know, reasonably good place now, but

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Speaker 1: obviously they're gonna be looking carefully as we look ahead.

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Speaker 1: What is your total affiliate base right now? Is it

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Speaker 1: about two stations or so? You know, we have three

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Speaker 1: thirty five stations, so it's a lot. It's a lot.

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Speaker 1: And you know, they serve everything from you know, New

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Speaker 1: York City to the MIDGI Minnesota. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: the MIDGI station actually does a light a nightly newscast.

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Speaker 1: So it's been they have a big share. They do, actually,

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Speaker 1: they have a very big share. And it's uh, and

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Speaker 1: I haven't visited every station, but I've visited most. I've been.

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Speaker 1: Right before the lockdown, I visited my fiftieth state and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's uh, it's amazing when you see some

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Speaker 1: of these operations. You know, again I point to the

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Speaker 1: news hour, I mean the coverage they were able to

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Speaker 1: do with the very small staff. Is uh is truly extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: But it's um so I always say, we punch well

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Speaker 1: above our weight. Let me ask you, has it you know,

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Speaker 1: at a time of of you know, incredible growth of

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Speaker 1: programming platforms and competition for content costs rising, has that

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Speaker 1: programming pipeline that that PBS has always been so good

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Speaker 1: at planning and planning far out with co productions and

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Speaker 1: things you know, coming from all sorts of all sorts

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Speaker 1: of sources, not just in the US. But is that

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Speaker 1: programming pipe pipeline squeezed now because there is so much

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Speaker 1: demand for global content there um In some areas it

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Speaker 1: is tougher. Drama is tougher, but we seem to find

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Speaker 1: drama that you know, that people really love and you know,

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Speaker 1: all creatures great and small. This um this winter which

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Speaker 1: turned out to be I watched it like a regular viewer,

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Speaker 1: you know. I I watched it on Sundays and just

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Speaker 1: it just carried me through the long dark winter. Um

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Speaker 1: And and it was cold in here unlike l A.

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Speaker 1: But you wouldn't have had the same significance for you,

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Speaker 1: but here in Virginia. Yeah, I'm in Virginia. So Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was called Winner. We had a lot of snow

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Speaker 1: and so and so I'll creatures a great song. But

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Speaker 1: so I think I would say that the drama pipeline

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Speaker 1: was a little harder to create an opportunity. So we

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Speaker 1: had a couple of things fallout. We just picked up

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Speaker 1: a series called Atlantic Crossing, which which actually started running

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Speaker 1: last week and has done has done reasonably, has done

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Speaker 1: very well. Actually it's uh, um, it's a it's an unknown,

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Speaker 1: untold story of um. UM, you know, a World War

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Speaker 1: two story UM with Churchill and um. You know, so

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Speaker 1: I think that um, there is a you know there

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Speaker 1: there is there is complications there. I think in the

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Speaker 1: in the documentary space, it's interesting because you know, I

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Speaker 1: read article after article about this is really the golden

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Speaker 1: age of documentaries in any way, It's true, a lot

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Speaker 1: of great documentaries. We all watched the record number of

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Speaker 1: documentaries that were submitted for Oscar consideration this year. UM

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Speaker 1: and a lot of streamers in particular picking up documentary.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of them, you know, are now moving

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Speaker 1: towards more you know, sort of the programming that that

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Speaker 1: drives off of current events, like the HBO series UM

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Speaker 1: on Q and on too, the to crime and so forth,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, again we kind of sit by

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Speaker 1: ourselves over here. So you know, I'm just really interested

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Speaker 1: in looking at ways that you know, we can continue

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Speaker 1: to expand stories, particularly stories that aren't that aren't often told,

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Speaker 1: are often well told because ultimately I don't have to

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Speaker 1: um adhere to the same pressures that commercial organization will

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Speaker 1: in terms of audience size. I can take a little

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Speaker 1: bit more risk and bring stories forward that you know,

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Speaker 1: just important stories. So you know, I would say that, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, for us, the interesting question is is all

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Speaker 1: the platforms and which ones we should pursue. We did

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Speaker 1: a deal last year with YouTube TV, which has turned

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Speaker 1: out to be good brand matters and so um and

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Speaker 1: as you said a little while ago, people are you know,

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Speaker 1: people understand the PBS brand, They understand what it means.

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Speaker 1: And uh, a lot of our stations have more aggressively

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Speaker 1: adopted either the PBS logo or the PBS name is

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Speaker 1: part of their their station itself. And so I think

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Speaker 1: that um that is all, you know, really redound to

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Speaker 1: the good, particularly as you're looking at distributing a multiple

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Speaker 1: platforms broadcast obviously cable, satellite, but also um digital streamed um,

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Speaker 1: you know, places like YouTube. It's a it's a constant

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Speaker 1: question for us of where our viewers, where would they

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Speaker 1: expect to see our content? How do we put it there?

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Speaker 1: But more importantly, how do we put our stations there

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Speaker 1: with content branded for them so that it's clear that

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Speaker 1: not only are you getting great work by ken Burns,

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Speaker 1: but if there's companion pieces that the stations have also produced,

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Speaker 1: it's all there, you know, for you to see and appreciate.

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Speaker 1: Do you get any have you seen any benefit in

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Speaker 1: terms of the rise of the digital m v p

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Speaker 1: d s, the YouTube TVs, the Roku's, the Hulu Live

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Speaker 1: do those? Do you get any kind of fees for

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Speaker 1: carriage when you're on those platforms? I know in the

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Speaker 1: traditional world it's often governed by what is known by

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Speaker 1: the wonky term of must carry in FCC parlance, and

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Speaker 1: you get carriage but not fees. Is that the same

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Speaker 1: in the digital world? We get carriage and nut fees.

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Speaker 1: We have on some of the some of our part

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Speaker 1: partners have helped us to phrase some of our costs

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Speaker 1: of getting our stuff up, but we're really it's not

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Speaker 1: it's not a revenue stream for us in the same

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Speaker 1: way that it would be you know, for commercial organization.

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Speaker 1: And we're also careful around the advertising part for you know,

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Speaker 1: some of the streamers that are ad supported, although we

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Speaker 1: have experimented, we have started experimenting with some older content

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Speaker 1: just as a way to push our material out. Um,

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Speaker 1: we have rights for some older content and not for others.

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Speaker 1: And we're just I'm just really interested in trying to

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Speaker 1: hit people wherever they may be watching, to just remind

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Speaker 1: them of all the great content within PBS. UM. So

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Speaker 1: like everyone else, Um, you know, we're just we're just

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Speaker 1: I don't think anyone's really figured this out. I think

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Speaker 1: everyone is just trying a lot of different opportunities and

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Speaker 1: that's certainly what we're doing. And I'm I'm grateful to

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Speaker 1: our stations because, um, you know, you know, at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of of this really interesting media period that we're in,

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Speaker 1: you know, I know that there were some that were

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Speaker 1: very nervous about you know, moving beyond the realm that

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Speaker 1: they completely controlled, which is what you had when you

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Speaker 1: had a broadcast stick. But you know, they, you know,

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Speaker 1: the stations really understand that for us to be in

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Speaker 1: multiple places and to have our brand out there, if

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Speaker 1: we're if we're purposeful about it and and try to

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Speaker 1: connect the dots back everyone everyone benefits. So so we've

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Speaker 1: been spending a lot of time thinking through all of that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: as you know, as I think I said in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: it's leading this organization has never been, never been a

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Speaker 1: cushy job, and probably never been more more challenging than

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Speaker 1: it has been in the last in the last bunch

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Speaker 1: of months. Um, Paula, what would you say in your

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Speaker 1: background You've been CEO of PBS now for fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: What would you say in your background, your work experience,

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Speaker 1: or your life experience that best prepared you for the

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Speaker 1: challenges that you have now as CEO. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a good question. I think I'm going

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Speaker 1: to answer it in a funny way. I think in

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Speaker 1: some ways, Um, some of the things that the best

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Speaker 1: prepared me to manage this organization have been frankly working

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Speaker 1: for people who weren't such great managers, because you do

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Speaker 1: learn more. I mean, I've had great mentors. So I

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Speaker 1: don't mean to sounds so flip about it. And I

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Speaker 1: fishure that I've continued to talk to over the years

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Speaker 1: because we all keep running up against things we've never

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Speaker 1: experienced before. Lord knows, this year has been filled with

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Speaker 1: those experiences. But UM, but I think that you know,

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Speaker 1: clear communication, UM, frequent communication, which is certainly been important

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Speaker 1: this year. UM is being able to listen well, but

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Speaker 1: to make decisions and move um. You know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: these are all aspects of leadership that I've not always

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Speaker 1: found in people that I've worked for, And I know

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Speaker 1: the impact that it had on me, and so I

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Speaker 1: think that you know that's prepared me, uh pretty well,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm. I guess the other thing is, you know,

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Speaker 1: just just on a personal basis, I'm interested in a

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Speaker 1: lot of things. I started out in college in pre

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Speaker 1: med um because I was always interested in science. I

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Speaker 1: failed organic chemistry, I took a lot of liberal arts classes,

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Speaker 1: panicked i'd never graduate, got a degree in business. But

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Speaker 1: I always carried forward to all these different interests. And

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Speaker 1: I think that also is I think, I think in

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Speaker 1: a funny way, that's helped me because I just had

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Speaker 1: a lot of cure curiosity about a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: So I know to ask a lot of questions. I

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Speaker 1: also understand the scientific method, and I know that you

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Speaker 1: can actually land decisions and without full information. And so

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Speaker 1: I think all of those things actually, you know, came

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Speaker 1: to came to the four when I hit the job.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting you've mentioned it now twice about when I,

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Speaker 1: you know, this has never been an easy job. I

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Speaker 1: remember when I was doing the first round of interviews

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Speaker 1: when I was first announced that I had been appointed

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Speaker 1: to this job, that somebody I interviewed with it was

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Speaker 1: a radio interview. I just can't remember what it was.

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Speaker 1: It's like sort of likened it to walking into the

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Speaker 1: gates of Hell, which I thought was so bizarre, and

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Speaker 1: I said, well, I I'm not exactly sure that's what

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Speaker 1: you know, we'll feel like. But anyway, I appreciate the

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Speaker 1: you know, the the the question. But um, what I

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Speaker 1: um have thought about actually as I have, you know,

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Speaker 1: have been in this job, is that my speech I

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Speaker 1: gave was right around the time that that Apple announced

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Speaker 1: they were going to sell episodes of Desperate Housewives for

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Speaker 1: a dollar ninety nine, right, that that was a groundbreaking thing,

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Speaker 1: and it just sounded so weird, like who would spend

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Speaker 1: a dollar ninety nine on an episode of Desperate Housewives

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Speaker 1: to watch on a tiny screen? Watch on a little screen, Right,

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Speaker 1: But it was the signal of how everything was going

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Speaker 1: to change. And I think that, um, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you just look at the arc of everything. I mean,

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Speaker 1: someone gave me a Netflix subscription as I was moving

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Speaker 1: from New York to Washington. It was it was the

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Speaker 1: you know, the DVDs. You know, So just in the

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Speaker 1: arc of time that I've been in this job, it's

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Speaker 1: the entire world is shifted. And I think that you know,

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Speaker 1: the the for me, you know, the other things sort

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Speaker 1: of in life experiences. You've got to be willing to

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Speaker 1: take risk and know that you know, even if you

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Speaker 1: can't ultimately predict what the outcome is going to be,

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Speaker 1: that um, you're gonna go on some path and you know,

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Speaker 1: chances are you won't get killed in the process, and

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Speaker 1: that you're gonna learn something. This is what we learned

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Speaker 1: from all the digital people, right, is that the Internet

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Speaker 1: way of iteration rather than building perfection, and which is

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Speaker 1: the I think the biggest sea change in again, in

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Speaker 1: in our business is that, um, you know, you just

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Speaker 1: have to keep you know, trying different things, but you

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Speaker 1: can't be afraid. And I think that's the That's the

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Speaker 1: other I think really important theme and everything that we've

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Speaker 1: tried to do is just let's take some let's let's

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Speaker 1: take some risk. It's very hard for nonprofits to do that,

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Speaker 1: by the way, because you're always worried that, you know,

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Speaker 1: someone's going to accuse you of wasting their money. But

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Speaker 1: organizations don't grow unless you unless you fail some of

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Speaker 1: the time. And I think most people understand that. Do

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Speaker 1: you have a wish list or any any anything on

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Speaker 1: your wish list for PBS or for that your kind

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Speaker 1: of your cousin the corporational public broadcasting from the new

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Speaker 1: Biden administration? Oh yeah, I mean, I you know, I

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Speaker 1: think the thing that's um it for me is is

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Speaker 1: very exciting. It's that we have a teacher in the

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Speaker 1: White House, and uh, you know, Jill Biden has been

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Speaker 1: a big proponent of public broadcasting and and I think

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Speaker 1: that you know, again, if you understand that we're built

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Speaker 1: on this idea of educational television that was the original concept,

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Speaker 1: a lot of what we do still ties into that,

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Speaker 1: and so to have someone that is passionate about education

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Speaker 1: is hugely important. So, um, you know, we're a public

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Speaker 1: private partnership. That's what LBJ envisioned when he created PBS

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Speaker 1: and so to have a white house that really understands

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Speaker 1: what that means. And and you know, I'm optimistic that,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're on a stronger path right now. We'll

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Speaker 1: take a short break now and be back with why

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Speaker 1: Gold broadcastings Neil Saban, And we're back with Weigel Broadcasting

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Speaker 1: is Neil Saban. Neil has shepherded the growth of multicast

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Speaker 1: networks that are now competing for ad dollars and eyeballs

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Speaker 1: in the big leagues of broadcast TV. Neil, I'd love

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Speaker 1: to start by asking you, you know, more than a

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Speaker 1: decade ago, what was it about the opportunity that you saw?

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Speaker 1: What was it that made Wigel such a pioneer in

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Speaker 1: this space. I think part of that is that Wigel

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Speaker 1: is a family owned entrepreneurial company that can move very

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Speaker 1: quickly on ideas, whether those ideas are technology based or

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Speaker 1: programming content based. We don't have a lot of people

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Speaker 1: involved in the decision making process, um, so we can

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Speaker 1: move quickly and we are, you know, a business that

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Speaker 1: looks for ways where we can exploit opportunities. Being small,

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Speaker 1: we can't do a lot of the things that bigger

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Speaker 1: companies can do when they have the massive scale of

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Speaker 1: you know, covering seventy of the country, six of the country.

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Speaker 1: But what we can do is look for areas of

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Speaker 1: expansion that maybe those people haven't looked at yet, which

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Speaker 1: is why I think we were one of the first

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Speaker 1: to jump on this uh sub channel bandwidth opportunity. The

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Speaker 1: chairman president of our company, Norm Shapiro, came into my

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Speaker 1: office one day and I could still see him sitting

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Speaker 1: on my couch saying, Neil, what if what would you

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Speaker 1: do if you had five television stations here in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: how would you program them? And he explained to me

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Speaker 1: what the digital transition is going to mean for television stations.

432
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: And I think, to also answer your question, Cynthia, it

433
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: is that in Chicago we had more than one station.

434
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: We have a very powerful low power that is, the

435
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,719
Speaker 1: transmitter and antenna are on top of Sears Tower along

436
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: with our main channel in Chicago and covers the market beautifully.

437
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: And we were doing at one point ethnic programming on

438
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: that second channel, and then UM started me TV on

439
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: that second channel as a Chicago only entity and it

440
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: was doing well. So we were already kind of in

441
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: the multicast business before multicast came along. UH. And then

442
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: when the technology allowed us to put both of those

443
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: signals on one channel, it was kind of a natural

444
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: and the you know, the first thing we really wanted

445
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: to do was me TV, a classic TV channel, But

446
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: many of the distributors when I went to see them,

447
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 1: they were they were not enthusiastic because that they didn't

448
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: really understand what this was. And and some of the

449
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: initial first first people in of the business, um, I

450
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 1: think we're not really professional broadcasters or people that had

451
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: track records and credibility. So it took us a while,

452
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: and I went to see all the syndicators and it

453
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: took place at a napty and I finally UH had

454
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: a meeting with John uh J B John Bryan at

455
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: UH MGM and said, hey, I want to buy some

456
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: of your classic shows to do this. And he said,

457
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: you know, Neil, everybody is coming to me talking about this,

458
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: why don't we just do it ourselves? And he's a

459
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 1: was an entrepreneurial kind of guy too, because and it's

460
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 1: literally in that meeting at napty when he said why

461
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: don't we do this ourselves? That's how this TV was

462
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: was formed, which was the first one because MGM doesn't

463
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: have a big classic TV show library, they have movie library.

464
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: So this TV was the first major, uh, major league

465
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: distributed dijonette to come out, and it was mostly movies

466
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: because that's mood MGM had. But by doing that, it

467
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: gave our company some more comfort and experience in making

468
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: the huge financial commitment that met V was because I

469
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: will tell you that when we started me TV, we

470
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: we did it that in a way. We said we

471
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: were always going to be very credible and what we

472
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: actually did and and Norm Shapiro likes to say, we

473
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: really threw the dice on this one. We went and

474
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: acquired all the programming on a national basis to start

475
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: me TV with the only affiliates being our own stations.

476
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: Can you talk about the pacing of like the growth

477
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: of these as businesses as as the growth of viewership,

478
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: the growth of advertising dollars? Was it? Was it fast?

479
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: Was it an uphill climb? Um? Well, for us, it

480
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: was pretty rapid in that um. It started with direct

481
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: response advertising, which is still so many things do in

482
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: TV right and it's still a big core. And more

483
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: and more advertisers are using DR as it's called or

484
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: hybrid DR which which needs ratings. And you know, you

485
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: can't even tell when you see the commercials that it's

486
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: really brought as DR because it looks like regular spot advertising.

487
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: But they are buying it on a kind of a

488
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: DR hybrid basis where you've got to have some ratings

489
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 1: for them to be able to track it. That so,

490
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,719
Speaker 1: but but it was almost like they were looking for

491
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: a place to go and and it was very opportunistic

492
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: for the advertisers and for us, I mean we were

493
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: welcomed in part the advertisers used us I'm sure as

494
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: leverage with the cable networks and syndication to say, look,

495
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: I can get this for a lot less money than

496
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: than that. And our rates, you know, they've gone up substantially.

497
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: Obviously MeTV and our other networks, um, you know are

498
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: quite successful. And you see all these other companies, like

499
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: you mentioned Cynthia, the big boys getting into this business,

500
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: and they don't get into businesses that that they think

501
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: aren't going to grow or aren't going to be successful.

502
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: And um, what's happened of late and what was especially

503
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: for me TV, which has significant ratings, is that as

504
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: cable and broadcast ratings have come down, the need to

505
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: buy impressions and to get down what the agencies need

506
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: to get down in terms of audience reach has gotten

507
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: to the point where they need networks like me TV

508
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: to make their campaign successful because they can't get all

509
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: of those rating points and impressions on cable anymore. It

510
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: really is a patchwork quilt these days and everything. And

511
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: again so interesting because if you look just on the surface,

512
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: you would think, you know, all the projections for digital advertising,

513
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, double high, single digit digits going out into

514
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: the going out into the future. You would think in

515
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: that environment it would be really hard to start a

516
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: TV channel, a linear essentially, won't say analog, but a

517
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: linear channel that is you know, AD supported, and is

518
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: you know, inevitably going to start small and and have

519
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: to grow grow a viewer base. You would think in

520
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: that environment that there wouldn't be left over advertising dollars

521
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: for digenets. But I think that that it just underscores

522
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: the power of TV that you can when you turn

523
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: on your set, you can basically find it that the

524
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: power of that is still pretty pretty strong. It is

525
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: not a science project to watch. You do not need

526
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: a password to watch, You do not get a bill

527
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: to watch me TV. And and as you say, you know,

528
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: people a lot smarter than me are starting digenets left

529
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: and right, so there must be something there that their

530
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: analysts and their stock people are saying that they should

531
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: be doing this. So, um yeah, it's and you know,

532
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: sometimes we all get caught up in the I call

533
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: it the Emperor's New close and close, and we have

534
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: to get on the bandwagon a three point on. We

535
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: have to get on the bandwagon of streaming services and

536
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: all that, because that's what everybody's doing. But you know,

537
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: man Pa whoever in Dayton, Ohio, they're still watching traditional

538
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: TV for most of the time that they're spending with

539
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: their media. So there's a business there and it may

540
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: not be the sexiest newest thing, but it works. Me

541
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: TV is not it is not it is not available

542
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: for streaming or it is um not now, No, it's

543
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not streamed in the future. That could happen,

544
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: but right now, our ratings, our success, our business comes

545
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: all off of traditional viewing. Does that you know? Um,

546
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: I guess it's hard. It's a little bit apples and

547
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: oranges in terms of me TVs. National rating versus. Like

548
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: you know, you're the ratings for your your broadcast stations

549
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: in Chicago, Milwaukee. Is it I mean, is me TV?

550
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: Is that? Is it getting that competitive to being like

551
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: competitive with something distributed by a full, full blown you

552
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: know podcast? Well in Milwaukee, are me TV? Affiliate beats

553
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: are independent the c W, the mind net uh and

554
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: some day's ion every day every day in sign on

555
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: the sign off numbers, I mean, me TV has about

556
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: twenty six million viewers a week, different viewers a week.

557
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: We came about twenty six million in daytime. Ah. If

558
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: you compar us against all cable networks from nine eight two,

559
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: I think it is six p in all viewers. You

560
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: know two plus viewers were the number one entertainment choice.

561
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: We beat every cable network but the newscast, the news networks.

562
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: What are your work horse shows right now? I know,

563
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: I know you you change up the lineup, but right now,

564
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: what are your courses? Yeah, some of our some of

565
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: our Facebook critics want us to change up things a

566
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: whole lot more, but you know you don't. You don't

567
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: fix what isn't broken. So things like Andy Griffith, Mash,

568
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: Harry Mason, Andanza guns Smoke, they stay right where they

569
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: are because they're they're doing so well. Thanks for listening.

570
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: Be sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcast.

571
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: We love to hear from listeners, and be sure to

572
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business