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Speaker 1: It was a life changing moment. Just coming home and

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Speaker 1: discovering that my house had been broken into and my

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Speaker 1: friend had been murdered. Like that was already a life

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Speaker 1: changing experience of like the fragility of life and the

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Speaker 1: preciousness of life and how anything can change in a moment.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to episode five oh four. Amanda Ox on Instagram

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Speaker 2: at Amanda Ox. I was very surprised that they came

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Speaker 2: to us and said, would you interview Amanda Ox? Were you? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: very surprised. I was super excited to do it because

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Speaker 2: this I wouldn't say, it's not in our alley except

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Speaker 2: it hasn't been or alley recently, and I really didn't

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Speaker 2: know how open she'd be about so I didn't know anything. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's just one of those ones you don't know how

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Speaker 2: it's going to go. When you started talking about everything,

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Speaker 2: I'm about to break down the whole case, so just

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Speaker 2: to make sure you understand what we understood. Also, I

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Speaker 2: do mention this in the interview with her. They sent

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Speaker 2: us the book, but very late, so I did not

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Speaker 2: get a chance to read the whole book, but I

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Speaker 2: did skim through it. But I remember the case and

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Speaker 2: it's pretty crazy, and so we're gonna get to it now,

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Speaker 2: and if you liked this episode, let us know we

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Speaker 2: can do more like this. We just felt like we

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Speaker 2: couldn't turn it down because one we remembered this case.

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Speaker 2: We remembered at least I did how I felt one

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Speaker 2: way about it, But then the more I learned about it,

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Speaker 2: I was kind of learning the media was telling me

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Speaker 2: to feel a way about it, and then it really

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Speaker 2: wasn't the truth about it, which now hopefully, like I'm

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Speaker 2: able to see things a little different and not judge

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Speaker 2: as quick. So how old were you? Though you're younger

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Speaker 2: than I am, So.

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Speaker 3: You remember this?

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Speaker 2: I don't. I remember it slightly, I remember more seeing

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Speaker 2: about it now. Yeah, I will say I did enjoy

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Speaker 2: this interview. Oh yeah, I felt a completely different way

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Speaker 2: by the end of me too, Me too, I enjoyed

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Speaker 2: the interview. It's thought she was super cool. I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: give you a quick rundown before we bring on our

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Speaker 2: next gift because her story is especially being separated from

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Speaker 2: it now, surreal, twisted, even debated. Still, I mean, I'll

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Speaker 2: remember it as the rich kid that was a college

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Speaker 2: students studying abroad in Italy and there was a murder.

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Speaker 2: But again, it wasn't like now where everything in social

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Speaker 2: media and there are true crime podcasts, et cetera. So

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Speaker 2: I did a mid dive to re explain the case

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Speaker 2: before we bring Amanda Knox on SO. Back in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and seven, which is almost twenty years ago, Amanda

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Speaker 2: Knox was a twenty year old college student from Seattle.

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Speaker 2: She was studying abroad in Italy. She had only been

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Speaker 2: there for a few weeks. Whenever I mean, something unthinkable happened,

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Speaker 2: which was her British roommate married at the character was

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Speaker 2: found brutally murdered in the home that they shared. Almost

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Speaker 2: immediate lea suspicion turned toward Amanda Knox and her then boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: So the Italian media, the international press, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: do quotes here, they kept calling her Foxy Noxy. When

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Speaker 2: I was looking up some information on the story to

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Speaker 2: kind of reintroduce myself to it because it had been

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Speaker 2: so long. She was young, she was American. We talked

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Speaker 2: about this in the interview. In a second she was

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Speaker 2: smiling in photos and now she was at the middle

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Speaker 2: of a murder mystery. The problem was the evidence was

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Speaker 2: super shaky, at best. So Amanda Knox was arrested, spent

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Speaker 2: nearly four years in an Italian prison. She was convicted

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Speaker 2: of murder that now most legal experts agree that she

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Speaker 2: did not commit. They did appeals, retrials, overturned verdicts, another conviction. Finally,

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Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen, the Italian Supreme Court exonerated her, fully

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Speaker 2: cleared no guilt. The court even admitted the media circus

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Speaker 2: and flawed investigation and played a major role into all

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Speaker 2: of the chaos and into the decisions as the court's made. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: another man whose DNA was actually found all over the

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Speaker 2: crime scene, was convicted and served time for Meredith Kurtcher's murder.

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Speaker 2: So imagine this. You're a twenty year old exchange student

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Speaker 2: in a country where you barely speak the language. Suddenly

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Speaker 2: you're at the center of a global media firestorm. You're

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Speaker 2: wrongly accused of murder, You're locked in a prison system,

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Speaker 2: and even after being clear to which she was been

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Speaker 2: reconvicted and then cleared again, people still argue about what

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Speaker 2: really happened today. Amanda is a writer and a podcaster,

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Speaker 2: and she's an advocate for criminal justice reform. She's also

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Speaker 2: someone who had to rebuild her whole life, knowing millions

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Speaker 2: of people still google her name and the word murder

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Speaker 2: is attached to it. And so we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about the case, but also how to move forward and

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Speaker 2: how to have a life. Her book is called Free,

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Speaker 2: My Search for Meaning. And here she is now, Amanda Knox. Amanda,

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Speaker 2: good to talk to you. How are you this morning?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great. Yeah, I've had breakfast with the kids

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Speaker 1: and now here we are.

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Speaker 2: Do you cook well right now?

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Speaker 1: I'm in Atlanta, but yes, I cook at home, so

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Speaker 1: I love to cook, but I am in Atlanta. So

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Speaker 1: we went downstairs to the hotel restaurant and had some pancakes.

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Speaker 2: If you're at home, what's the specialty on a school morning?

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Speaker 2: What's the specialty? What do you do fast and good?

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Speaker 1: I'd make a really really good like yogurt with with

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Speaker 1: poached egg that I then mix with like garlic and paprika.

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Speaker 1: It's really good. It sounds crazy, but it's actually delicious.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like my breath will be terrible. It sounds like

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Speaker 2: I enjoy. My breath will be terrible whenever I was

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Speaker 2: done with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you might want to brush your teeth afterwards.

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Speaker 2: I'm super excited to talk to you. I know the

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Speaker 2: process of writing a book just in general is hard.

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Speaker 2: I've done it and I'm not good at it, and

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Speaker 2: I wonder for you because, aside from your literal story

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Speaker 2: and everything you've been through, having to write about that

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Speaker 2: brings up a lot of feelings that sometimes that maybe

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Speaker 2: you had repressed. Like what did you learn about yourself

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Speaker 2: when writing a book?

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Speaker 1: Well, I've always used writing as a means of understanding

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Speaker 1: what I'm experiencing. So it's a way of taking all

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Speaker 1: of the stuff that feels really overwhelming that is inside

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Speaker 1: of you and putting it in front of you and

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Speaker 1: learning how to articulate what it means. It sort of

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Speaker 1: puts you in a position of just like making sense

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Speaker 1: of it. And after having gone on this journey to

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Speaker 1: connect with my prosecutor and meet with him in person

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Speaker 1: and really see him for the human being he is,

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Speaker 1: I came out of that experience thinking, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I finally did something in my adult life that really

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Speaker 1: defines who I am, and it's not just the worst

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Speaker 1: experience of my life that everyone defines me for. And

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Speaker 1: so I felt like I have a story to tell

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Speaker 1: and I had to go backwards in time in order

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Speaker 1: to set the stage for that encounter, and good God. Like,

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Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing that I learned was how

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Speaker 1: sad my life was. Like, you know, as you're living

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Speaker 1: your life, you're just sort of like trying to be

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Speaker 1: okay and trying to just be scrappy and survive. And

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Speaker 1: I just went for a long time just being in

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Speaker 1: survival mode and feeling really alone and like I really

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Speaker 1: didn't have a say in who I was and what

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Speaker 1: my life meant. And that was really sad. But I'm

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Speaker 1: now in a very very different place, and I'm so

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Speaker 1: grateful that.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting you talk about going back to meet the

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Speaker 2: prosecutor and seeing the human that they were, and if

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Speaker 2: you'll indulge me for one second, and my second book,

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Speaker 2: I went and met my real dad for the first

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Speaker 2: time in like thirty years, and oh wow, it was

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Speaker 2: when you're saying that, The reason I say this is

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Speaker 2: because I felt the same way, because that entity was

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Speaker 2: a villain for what it represented more than it was

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Speaker 2: trying to understand the human of it. And it was

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Speaker 2: awkward and awesome and sad and like so many emotions

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Speaker 2: all at once, but it allowed me to actually understand

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Speaker 2: other emotions that I don't think I would have had

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Speaker 2: had I not done that. So what did you take

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Speaker 2: away from yourself after meeting, because again this is the

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Speaker 2: person who was like trying to put you away.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I think it really put me

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Speaker 1: in contact with a lot of rage that I had suppressed,

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Speaker 1: especially in the prison environment, because rage is both an

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Speaker 1: empowering feeling but also a destable feeling. And I think

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Speaker 1: the thing that I really needed to survive prison was

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Speaker 1: feeling stable, feeling in control, feeling like I no one

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Speaker 1: could take advantage of me. Really just like numbing myself

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Speaker 1: to the emotions of my experience until the only thing

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Speaker 1: I ever really felt was just a constant state of sadness.

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Speaker 1: And so when I got out of prison and I

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Speaker 1: was suddenly sort of inundated with the luxury of rage,

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Speaker 1: and I really needed to like understand, like to sort

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Speaker 1: of address the rage that I felt for what happened

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Speaker 1: to me, and looking back and grieving for this young

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Speaker 1: girl who had never had anything bad happen to her,

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Speaker 1: that person you know, didn't return home from her study abroad.

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Speaker 1: I had to grieve and feel the rage and encountering

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Speaker 1: him as a human being really like, in a surprising way,

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Speaker 1: flipped things around so that I realized that I was

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Speaker 1: not the fragile, broken one of our relationship. It was

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Speaker 1: really the opposite. Like I really felt like when I

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Speaker 1: first reached out to him, I was putting my beating

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Speaker 1: heart in his hands. And by the time I got

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Speaker 1: like I came back from that trip to Italy after

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Speaker 1: having met with him, I realized that I was holding

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Speaker 1: his beating heart in my hands, and he was this,

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Speaker 1: you know, fragile entity that was also precious in its

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Speaker 1: fragility and it's imperfection.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I like, I feel that, I feel the words

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Speaker 2: that you're saying. And if I ask something that's a

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Speaker 2: little uh too far, tell me. But whenever, what was

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Speaker 2: the first you heard of anything that involved what led

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Speaker 2: to you go into prison? Was it a phone knock

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Speaker 2: on the door? Was it a phone call where you're like, wait,

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Speaker 2: what's happening?

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Speaker 1: You mean like the discovery, Yes.

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Speaker 2: The very the moment your life changed for a while,

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Speaker 2: like where were you and how did that get communicated

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Speaker 2: to you? What was happening?

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Speaker 1: Well, I came home and discovered the crime scene. So

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Speaker 1: I was the one who called the police.

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Speaker 2: But you're thinking, though, you're calling the police, so you're

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Speaker 2: not it because you're calling the police.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, no, And of course yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it was a life changing moment just coming

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Speaker 1: home and discovering that my house had been broken into

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Speaker 1: and my friend had been murdered. Like even putting aside,

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Speaker 1: like everything that came after that, like that was already

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Speaker 1: a life changing experience of like the fragility of life

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Speaker 1: and the preciousness of life and how anything can change

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Speaker 1: in a moment like that was already very, very destabilizing

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Speaker 1: for me. But then, of course I was then put

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Speaker 1: through fifty three hours of interrogation over five days, and

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Speaker 1: brought to the brink of my own sanity, where the

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Speaker 1: police became convinced from the very beginning that I was

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Speaker 1: a witness to what happened to Meredith. They did not

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Speaker 1: believe me that I was not home when the crime occurred,

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Speaker 1: and so they coerced me, through bullying and physical and

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Speaker 1: psychological abuse, into convincing me that I must have been

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Speaker 1: traumatized from having witnessed the event and didn't remember the

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Speaker 1: truth and had to imagine reality in a different way

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Speaker 1: and therefore implicate a person that I had a relationship with,

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Speaker 1: which was my boss, Patrick Lumumba. Like the relationship was

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Speaker 1: he was my boss. The night of the murder, we

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Speaker 1: had exchanged text messages about coming into work or not,

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Speaker 1: and they interpreted this as him being involved with me

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Speaker 1: and therefore taking part in the crime, and I was

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Speaker 1: covering for him. So I think of all of the

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Speaker 1: things that I experienced, that was the most destabilizing. That's

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Speaker 1: when my life was taken away from me.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think I did the great job at

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Speaker 2: asking the question. We did a great job of answering it.

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Speaker 2: And I guess when did you feel like they started

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Speaker 2: to turn on you, Like, did you feel at where

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Speaker 2: it's like, oh, now I'm in the crosshairs?

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean during that final interrogation that went overnight,

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Speaker 1: they started accusing me of lying, of covering for the murderer,

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Speaker 1: and I spent countless hours trying to just tell them

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Speaker 1: that that it wasn't true that I was. I had

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Speaker 1: always told the truth. I had spent the night at

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Speaker 1: my boyfriend's house, like I knew nothing about the murder,

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Speaker 1: and they just wouldn't believe me, And then they convinced

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Speaker 1: me that everything I thought to be true was wrong

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Speaker 1: by lying to me and by hitting me, and by

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Speaker 1: yelling at me, and doing this over the course of

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Speaker 1: many hours, and so once that once that had gone

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Speaker 1: off the rails. But even then I didn't actually know

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Speaker 1: that they were accusing me of the crime like they

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Speaker 1: The way that they framed it to me was that

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Speaker 1: I was a victim of the crime, that I had

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Speaker 1: witnessed it, but I had survived this like horrible ordeal.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't until I was already in prison and

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Speaker 1: I was facing a judge that I was informed that

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Speaker 1: I was under investigation for the murder of my roommates.

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Speaker 1: So it's really like it came in these horrible stages

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Speaker 1: of revealing information to me that I just didn't know

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Speaker 1: as a twenty year old kid, you know, studying abroad

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Speaker 1: and speaking to everyone in a language that I was

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Speaker 1: not remotely fluent in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how difficult was Again this is dramatic and intense

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Speaker 2: communication and heavy consequences. But again it's a todd language

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Speaker 2: that is not your everyday language, and that has to

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Speaker 2: also play a factor in how you're in how you're

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Speaker 2: feeling emotionally about it, but also what you can understand right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I thought that like one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: why the police were so frustrated with me or or

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Speaker 1: all of that was just simply because I did not

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Speaker 1: speak the Lane. I had only been in Italy for

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Speaker 1: five weeks, so I had very limited ability with the language,

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Speaker 1: and I very often did not have an interpreter there

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Speaker 1: to assist me. So was I thought that one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons why they might be accusing me of lying

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Speaker 1: was because maybe they had misinterpreted something that I had said,

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Speaker 1: or maybe I had said it the wrong way, or

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Speaker 1: maybe I didn't under stand their question. And so there

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Speaker 1: were all of these like explanations in my head for

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Speaker 1: why they were acting towards me, not like the innocent

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Speaker 1: person who was not involved with this crime that I was.

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Speaker 1: And I think part of my you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: naivete but even you know, this happens with adults, this

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Speaker 1: happens with wrongful convictions. Just being an innocent person positioned

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Speaker 1: me to think that the police would never accuse me,

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Speaker 1: Like it just never occurred to me that they would

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Speaker 1: accuse me of participating in this crime. And so the

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Speaker 1: only thing that I could that I could try to

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Speaker 1: maybe understand that they were communicating to me was that

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Speaker 1: I had trauma induced amnesia from having witnessed something horrible,

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Speaker 1: Like what did I know? I didn't know. I was

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Speaker 1: twenty again, I was twenty years old. I had zero

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Speaker 1: experience with the police or with traumatic events with crime,

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Speaker 1: and so I was really very vulnerable and in a

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Speaker 1: state of what they call cognitive opening because of how

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Speaker 1: destabilizing this, this sudden trumic reality was to a very

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Speaker 1: young person.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a quick pause for a message from our

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Speaker 3: sponsorow and.

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Speaker 4: We're back on the Bobby Cast.

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Speaker 2: Because it was so intense and because it was so unfamiliar,

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Speaker 2: did you start to believe maybe they were right? Ever?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I believed it for long enough to sign

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Speaker 1: statements that they typed up. And then after I was

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Speaker 1: allowed to sleep and people were no longer yelling at me,

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Speaker 1: I realized how it was a mistake, and I wrote

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Speaker 1: a retraction and then I was sent to prison. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, the thing is I think that

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Speaker 1: I was already sort of on a train that had

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Speaker 1: left the station long before I even signed those statements.

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Speaker 1: The police had already decided from the day one that

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Speaker 1: what really happened, which was a burglar broke into our

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Speaker 1: home and raped and murdered my roommate. They said that

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Speaker 1: that was faked, that someone in the house had staged

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Speaker 1: a break in, and they looked directly at me and

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Speaker 1: tapped my cell phone and no one else who lived

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Speaker 1: in the house and targeted me from the very beginning.

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Speaker 2: And the targeting to me. And I'm remembering this as

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Speaker 2: well because it wasn't so long ago, but it still

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Speaker 2: feels pretty recent. Did they And I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you did it or not, but there was like a

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Speaker 2: smiling thing where they were like, she smiled while we

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Speaker 2: were talking to her. Right is right? Did they say

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Speaker 2: they accuse you of that? And that they were like blain, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean they accused me of not responding to the

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Speaker 1: crime the way that someone would expect a person to.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, I think again they were

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Speaker 1: not taking into consideration one my youth, my inexperience, but

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Speaker 1: also my not understanding of the language, like I didn't

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Speaker 1: actually see the body of my friend. I came home

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Speaker 1: and discovered that my house had been broken into, and

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Speaker 1: I called the police, and then it was only after

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Speaker 1: the police had arrived that the full scope of the

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Speaker 1: crime was revealed, and I never actually saw my roommate's body,

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Speaker 1: and so all I saw was a bunch of people

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Speaker 1: screaming in Italian and talking over each other, and I

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Speaker 1: was trying to piece together what was happening, and so

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Speaker 1: a lot of people look at me and say, oh, wow,

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Speaker 1: look at this American girl who's not acting like all

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Speaker 1: the Italian people. And it's like, well, maybe one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons why I wasn't acting like all the Italian

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Speaker 1: people is because the Italian people all had more information

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Speaker 1: than me. They understood what was happening in a way

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Speaker 1: that I didn't. And so I feel like, you know,

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Speaker 1: looking back on it, I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: are looking for justifications for why I was targeted instead

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Speaker 1: of just owning up to the fact that they had

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Speaker 1: a gut instinct it was wrong, and they went with

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Speaker 1: it anyway at the expense of another innocent person's life.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes, especially in our legal system, in many legal

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Speaker 2: western legal systems, they just need a villain, and it

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter if it's the right one. They just need

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Speaker 2: one so they can check the box, either politically or

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Speaker 2: just so to settle everybody else's nerves because there's been

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Speaker 2: a murder around, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that that drive for closure was really

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Speaker 1: really big in my case, because the international media descended

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Speaker 1: upon this case from day one, and you know, it's

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Speaker 1: even written in the court documents that the Perusia police

348
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Speaker 1: were under an immense amount of pressure to deliver a

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Speaker 1: guilty verdict, like a guilty party immediately, even when they

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Speaker 1: did not have the results of the like forensic analysis

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Speaker 1: of the actual evidence in the case, which all pointed

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Speaker 1: to a local burglar who had a history of breaking

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Speaker 1: and entering and of being aggressive towards women. It was

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Speaker 1: just only discovered after they had already arrested me.

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Speaker 2: Did you feel that because you were pretty and you're

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Speaker 2: an American that that also made you more of a target.

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Speaker 1: I think it made the story absolutely arise above what

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Speaker 1: you know, the other stories of young women being murdered

359
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Speaker 1: abroad like that happens unfortunately every day, where a young

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Speaker 1: woman is murdered by a man. I think that the

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Speaker 1: idea of a woman hating woman who is you know,

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Speaker 1: sexually charged really resonated with people, and so ultimately the

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Speaker 1: case was never really about the truth of what happened

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Speaker 1: to my friend it was about the scandal around this

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Speaker 1: archetype of a woman who like hates other women, and

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Speaker 1: that was that was the idea. That was the myth

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Speaker 1: that was packaged by the prosecution and distributed by the

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Speaker 1: media and made a hell of a prophet.

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Speaker 2: So you are convicted, At what point during the trial

370
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Speaker 2: did you feel like, yeah, we're probably gonna lose.

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Speaker 1: I didn't believe we were gonna lose. Honestly, all the

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Speaker 1: way up to my conviction and my family and I

373
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Speaker 1: talked about how we were just in this dark tunnel,

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Speaker 1: but there was a light at the end of the

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Speaker 1: tunnel the truth would went out. The prosecution's case was

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Speaker 1: bizarre and based on a lot of false assumptions. For

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Speaker 1: their case to have made sense, I needed to have

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Speaker 1: a I needed to be in a secret love triangle

379
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Speaker 1: between two men who didn't know each other. I had

380
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Speaker 1: no history of communications with the person who actually committed

381
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Speaker 1: this crime. So there were a lot of leaps of

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Speaker 1: fantasy to this case. And I believed, and I still believe,

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Speaker 1: that the prosecution was only ever able to prove that

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Speaker 1: I lived in that house. That's why my DNA was

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Speaker 1: in my bathroom, for instance, And so I really believed

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Speaker 1: that when all the adults came into the room and

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Speaker 1: it came down to truth beyond a reasonable doubt, I

388
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Speaker 1: would be going home. And it was only once I

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Speaker 1: was convicted that I realized that the truth didn't matter,

390
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Speaker 1: that it was all about the story, and I plunged

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Speaker 1: into a new reality, a new realization that I talk

392
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Speaker 1: about in Free my Search for Meeting, where I was like,

393
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Speaker 1: oh my god, this is not the life I should

394
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Speaker 1: be living. But this is my life? Now? What how

395
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Speaker 1: do I make it work? Living? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Did you how did How long did it take you

397
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Speaker 2: to create your new culture? Because if that was you

398
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Speaker 2: now had you had to create one because you were

399
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Speaker 2: now living in a place, and that's prison, and who

400
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Speaker 2: knows how long you're going to be there? How long

401
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 2: until you kind of had the reality of this might

402
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Speaker 2: be it, I get to figure out how to live

403
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Speaker 2: like this.

404
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Speaker 1: Well, I had already spent two years in prison leading

405
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Speaker 1: up to my conviction, and so I was already very

406
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Speaker 1: familiar with the community that I was a part of,

407
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 1: which was a lot of women who had were guilty

408
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Speaker 1: of the crimes they committed for the most part, but

409
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Speaker 1: who also were victims of crime and neglect and abuse,

410
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Speaker 1: long before they ever had committed crimes themselves. They were

411
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 1: struggle with, you know, a lack of resources. And I

412
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Speaker 1: realized that, compared to so many of these other women

413
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Speaker 1: around me, I was actually very lucky. I was educated,

414
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Speaker 1: I was healthy, I had all of my teeth. I

415
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: knew the world was a sphere, and I learned that

416
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Speaker 1: I could become very useful. I became a translator for people.

417
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Speaker 1: I was a scribe. I gave you know, back massages

418
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Speaker 1: like these are all the little prison hustles that come

419
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Speaker 1: with being, like finding your place and finding your purpose

420
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Speaker 1: in a very limited environment. But then, of course I

421
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: had to rediscover that all over again once I was

422
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: released from prison, and I was now branded the girl

423
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Speaker 1: accused of murder in a world that just couldn't get

424
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Speaker 1: enough of Foxy Noxy content of looking at me and

425
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: judging me, and gleefully judging me and looking at me

426
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Speaker 1: in the worst possible light.

427
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Speaker 4: The Bobby Cast will be right back. This is the

428
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 4: Bobby Cast.

429
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: In the book, and it came out a few days ago,

430
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: so I haven't had time to go to read the

431
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 2: whole thing. I'll be honest parts of it, but what

432
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: I do like about it is. It's not a hey,

433
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 2: I'm awesome, it's hey, this is my story. And these

434
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: are also some of the mistakes I made. I mean,

435
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 2: and yeah, I think that's a big part of people

436
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: just believing people in general, and I think that's what

437
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: makes it so effective. But you know, that's also something

438
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: you have to come to terms with, Like, I'm going

439
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: to also write about some of the mistakes that I

440
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 2: did make. What was one of the hardest things to write.

441
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: About being conned by a man who claimed to have

442
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: been a wrongly convicted person who I then became intimate with,

443
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: and who then became abusive towards me, and I had

444
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: to escape him, and I couldn't call the police for help,

445
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: and I had to recognize that I was looking to

446
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: him for some kind of understanding and connection that I

447
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: couldn't find elsewhere in the world because I felt so

448
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: ostracized and I was wrong. I was really wrong, and

449
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: I almost lost everything all over again because of how

450
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: wrong I was. And you know, to your point of

451
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: talking about mistakes, I think that anyone who has been

452
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: through a traumatic experience makes mistakes on the other side

453
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: of it, because you are grappling with the trauma of

454
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 1: what you just went through and what it means for

455
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 1: you and what your place in the world is. And

456
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: you're looking for connection and you're looking for stability, and

457
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: maybe you're looking in the wrong places, and so learning

458
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: to trust yourself again as a huge part of a

459
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: person's journey to heal after a very big, life changing,

460
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: you know, traumatic event. And one of the biggest things

461
00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: that I want people to take away from my book

462
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,479
Speaker 1: is just feeling seen themselves because we've all, like, all

463
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: of this was happening also when I was in my twenties,

464
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: So the years of our life when we are making

465
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: the big, you know, big stupid mistakes because we don't

466
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 1: really know how the world works and we don't really

467
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: know who we are. And so I was doing all

468
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: of that while also being under an intense global scrutiny

469
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: and all the while, you know, trying to prove my

470
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: innocence in a world that was primed not to believe me.

471
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: And my biggest hope is that while my experience is

472
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: really extreme, it ultimately speaks to these universal experiences that

473
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: we all feel. And so therefore some the takeaways that

474
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: I come away with are applicable to anyone who reads

475
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 1: my book.

476
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: Final two questions, Uh, The first one going to be

477
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 2: more specific to the acquittal, because basically, there was just

478
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: so much wrong at Everything was messed. It was like

479
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 2: dunda dun da d d d d dun dun du

480
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 2: d Like there was just so many things that were

481
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 2: that didn't line up. But it's rare to see somebody

482
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: appeal and get acquitted. I mean, that's just rare. But

483
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 2: going into it, did you feel like you had a

484
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: legitimate shot?

485
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: I didn't know. I knew that the evidence showed that

486
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: I was innocent, but my first, you know, conviction showed

487
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: me that it didn't really matter what the evidence showed.

488
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: It mattered about, you know, what people were projecting onto

489
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: the story and what resonated with them, And the story

490
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: of a woman hating slut monster was more resonant with people.

491
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: I think people really thought that there must be you know,

492
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,479
Speaker 1: if there was smoke, there must be fire, and and

493
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: I never really was given the benefit of the doubt.

494
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: So I was shocked. I was truly shocked when I

495
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: was acquitted. And then of course I went through a

496
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,959
Speaker 1: whole other journey of having been reconvicted later and then

497
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: had to be re equitted afterwards. So my journey was

498
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: not just convicted than acquitted. I was bouncing back and

499
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: forth and trying, you know, and different courts were primed

500
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: with their own biases and their own you know, their

501
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: own prerogatives, and it just oftentimes it was again it

502
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: was this feeling that like the truth got lost and

503
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: the truth didn't matter ultimately.

504
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 2: So in the book and some myth final question free,

505
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 2: my search for meaning, and there are definitely the details

506
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: about the trial, but it's so much more than that.

507
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: It's about and I think it's the human element that

508
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 2: we all are trying to do, Like what the heck

509
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 2: are we even doing? Why are we doing it? Why

510
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: do we have to go through what we even had

511
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: to go through? Like I, you know, I've had some

512
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 2: nothing like yours, but experiences in my life where my

513
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: mom got pregnant fifteen and she died early, didn't have

514
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: a dad.

515
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: But I.

516
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: But again that's not anything or they're not even supposed

517
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: to be compared, I guess, is my point, right, Like

518
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 2: we all have our right, we all have our things,

519
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: and at this point of my life, I've found like

520
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: little gifts from that trauma that i now now can

521
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: recognize as gifts from that trauma. And this is my

522
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 2: final question to you, what are the gifts that you

523
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: got from this trauma?

524
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: One is an allergy to judgment. I'm really like, I

525
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: think that the world right now really primes us to

526
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: be really judgmental and divided, and as a result of that,

527
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: we feel a really deep sense of unease in the world.

528
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: And I am not at all subject to that. I

529
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: always find common ground when I can, I always try

530
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: to develop meaningful relationships. But I think the biggest thing

531
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: that I took away was just how important it is

532
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: to be present right here, right now, because at any moment,

533
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: everything can be taken away from you. And so what

534
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: you have right now is everything, and it is enough.

535
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: And if you are distract did from this moment and

536
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: what you have, you are not living your life and

537
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: you were not free.

538
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: The book free, My search for meaning is out. And

539
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: I'll also say this, I hope is okay. It's funny too.

540
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: I can say that, right, right, Okay, good, yeah.

541
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that's appropriate to say, yeah, because I have

542
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: fun with it.

543
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 2: Because it doesn't feel like it would be like, Okay,

544
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 2: she's talking about the murder. There's a lot of stuff

545
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: that's not, but there's a balance where it was funny too,

546
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: And I was like, can I say that I thought

547
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 2: some of them was kind of funny because I think

548
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: you had intention.

549
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: So happy it is that I really tried to make

550
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: it not just a freaking bummer the entire time great.

551
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: And I'm glad that question wasn't a freaking bummer because

552
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: I worried about it. Amanda, thank you for coming on

553
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 2: and sharing your story. I hope you want sell so

554
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: many books, but two that the people that read the

555
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: books actually take what you're putting in the book for

556
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: what it is, and it's not just your story, but

557
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: it's how your story it is parallel with so many

558
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: others and the growth they can take from you know

559
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: what you're offering in this book. So so thank you

560
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: so much, and I hope you have a great day.

561
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: And I'm still not sold on the breakfast that you make,

562
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: but I'm gonna believe you and I don't know that,

563
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: but thank you, Amanda. I have a great rest of

564
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: the day.

565
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: You.

566
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 3: Thanks by thanks for listening to a Bobby Cast production.