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Speaker 1: Waiting on Reparations would beat the illes podcast. Tune in
Speaker 1: every Thursday politics and wordplay. We fight for the people
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Speaker 1: waiting the reparations. Listen to Waiting on Reparations on I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Piazza, host of the podcast Under the Influence.
Speaker 1: If you tuned into our last season, you know that
Speaker 1: the world of mom influencers on Instagram contains multitudes. Yes,
Speaker 1: there are pretty pictures and gorgeous kids, and yes there
Speaker 1: is lots of money behind a lot of those pictures.
Speaker 1: But there's also something much more dark and complicated going
Speaker 1: on in the background, and that speaks to everything that
Speaker 1: is wrong with how we treat women in the world.
Speaker 1: On season two of Under the Influence, we're advocating for
Speaker 1: the women who make content and the women who consume it.
Speaker 1: We're going into some of the darkest corners of the
Speaker 1: social media universe, and we might just have a plan
Speaker 1: to shut it all the hell down. Listen to season
Speaker 1: two of Under the Influence with Joe Piazza on the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hi. I'm Greg Daniels. I was the showrunner
Speaker 1: of the Office. Hello, Hello everybody. Thank you for diving
Speaker 1: in to another episode of The Office Deep Dive. See
Speaker 1: what I did there. I am your host Brian baumb Gartner,
Speaker 1: and I am so thankful that you are here. Yes,
Speaker 1: for those of you listening in real time, it is
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving week here in the States, and I love this
Speaker 1: time of year truly. The Crisp Air my Birthday, the
Speaker 1: Fall Leaves, my Birthday Football. It is the best, all right.
Speaker 1: And as I mentioned last week, working on this podcast
Speaker 1: with some of my favorite people and the whole entire
Speaker 1: world has just been well, it's hard to put into words,
Speaker 1: but it is definitely The thing that I am most
Speaker 1: thankful for this thanksgiving my family aside, of course, but
Speaker 1: know this my podcast, this podcast, it has truly changed
Speaker 1: my life. And the other thing that, without question chin
Speaker 1: has changed my life. Who I'm so thankful to be
Speaker 1: talking to today is our showrunner Greg Daniels. His brilliance,
Speaker 1: his mentorship, his general aura of greatness. I am just
Speaker 1: so happy and feel so blessed that this man is
Speaker 1: a part of my life. So I'm going to bring
Speaker 1: you today the last part of my conversation with Greg.
Speaker 1: As you know, he was the creator of the Office,
Speaker 1: and he has gone on to make Parks and Wreck
Speaker 1: and Upload and Space Force and so much more. He
Speaker 1: also wrote the forward of our new book, Welcome to
Speaker 1: dunder Mifflin, So if you get a chance, go check
Speaker 1: that out. But it was important for me that on
Speaker 1: this week of giving thanks, that I give thanks to
Speaker 1: my boss of almost a decade. And while famously Michael
Speaker 1: Scott was the world's best boss, everything he knew he
Speaker 1: learned from Greg Daniels. Is that a compliment? I don't know,
Speaker 1: but anyway, give it up for the best boss on
Speaker 1: the entire planet the galaxy. The incomparable Greg Daniels, Bubble
Speaker 1: and Squeak. I love it Bubble and Squeak on Bubble
Speaker 1: and Squeaker Cookie every month, left over from the night before. Okay,
Speaker 1: well here's kind of a fun one. So you worked with, um,
Speaker 1: Steve Carroll, Yeah, John Krasinski, Rain Wilson, and well myself
Speaker 1: and Um, I've heard it has been said that your
Speaker 1: favorite actor of all time is Paul Lieberstein. Paul is
Speaker 1: very good. I mean, I'm certainly not gonna say anything
Speaker 1: negative about Paul. I don't want to rank you guys.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's fair. But Paul is like it
Speaker 1: didn't expect him to be so good, you know, but
Speaker 1: he basically just filled in at the table read in
Speaker 1: season one, and Kevin would go to the table reads
Speaker 1: and Paul got laughs and Kevin was like, what happened
Speaker 1: to that guy with the red hair? You know? Put
Speaker 1: him in more. And that's how he got on the
Speaker 1: show pretty much. But he always had an interesting attitude
Speaker 1: about it. And you know, Paul is like a jazz vibraphonist.
Speaker 1: Uh and I feel like something about that jazz timing
Speaker 1: was in his performance and was like a little bit unusual. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, he's great, but I don't want to say, like, uh,
Speaker 1: anybody's better than anybody else. Why did you Why did
Speaker 1: you choose Paul and Jen to run the show after
Speaker 1: when when you left to go to Parks. Well, Um,
Speaker 1: the interesting thing about making the writer's performers is that
Speaker 1: that kind of bites you a little bit. Like season one,
Speaker 1: we wrote all the scripts, we shot all the shows,
Speaker 1: and then I went into editing and just did full
Speaker 1: time editing. And that was great because you could be
Speaker 1: physically presented everything. It was really fun. And that was when,
Speaker 1: you know, Paul became a character, Mindy became a character.
Speaker 1: B J was always a character, and there was no
Speaker 1: downside to that. Season two we start and then those
Speaker 1: guys go off to the set and I'm suddenly looking around.
Speaker 1: I've got like half the staff, you know. I got
Speaker 1: Mike and Jen and Lee Gene and that's it. Everybody
Speaker 1: else is on set, you know, and then they'd show up. Obviously,
Speaker 1: still did great stuff and wrote great episodes and everything,
Speaker 1: but there were times when the room was a little
Speaker 1: bit thin because they were acting. And Mike was a
Speaker 1: very mature, full package, like he could produce, he could write,
Speaker 1: and he wasn't one of the main characters. And I
Speaker 1: also felt very much responsible to the cast and to Steve,
Speaker 1: And if Steve was not going to go do movies
Speaker 1: and bug out and was going to stick with it,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be the guy who was, you know,
Speaker 1: gonna do something to detriment the show, right, So I
Speaker 1: didn't want to. I haven't be like, oh, you can't
Speaker 1: find me into your pall on set because they're doing
Speaker 1: a spin off or whatever and it and I guess
Speaker 1: Mike had worked there for four years and he was
Speaker 1: going to go anyway, do you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's not like he was gonna put the rest of
Speaker 1: his career working there. He was pretty icious and headed places.
Speaker 1: So I felt like he would be a good choice
Speaker 1: to do it because I could set it up with
Speaker 1: him and then he could run it and I could
Speaker 1: still see the office room. So and we had different ideas,
Speaker 1: like the parks is the idea of okay, it's mockumentary.
Speaker 1: Instead of being about business in the private sector, it's
Speaker 1: about the public sector. But at the same time, I
Speaker 1: had an idea that I thought was good, which was
Speaker 1: all right, workplace is a good genre of TV. Comedy,
Speaker 1: but an even bigger genre is family show. What about
Speaker 1: a mockumentary about a family show? And I had a
Speaker 1: plan after Mike was going to spin off and do Parks.
Speaker 1: I was going to do a show with Jen and
Speaker 1: we were going to do the family sitcom one and
Speaker 1: we had worked it out ed Helms was gonna maybe
Speaker 1: be the lead with Catherine Tate as his wife, and
Speaker 1: they were, and it was going to be the mocumentary
Speaker 1: looking at a cul de sac, some kind of suburban
Speaker 1: cul de sac. And then Modern Family came out and
Speaker 1: you know, was huge hit. That kind of put the
Speaker 1: end to that plan, right. Mike Sure said about being
Speaker 1: asked to go and develop Parks and Wreck, they basically
Speaker 1: said that it feels like m Mozart told me he
Speaker 1: wants to design a piano with me. It's not Steinway,
Speaker 1: Moats are boats are designing a piano. Let's are very
Speaker 1: incompetent piano maker, but still somebody who probably should follow.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's cool, that's nice. Yeah, it was. It
Speaker 1: was certainly fun to do Parks. I mean we you know,
Speaker 1: we're so close to the office that we thought Parks
Speaker 1: was just completely different. I mean, like we didn't see
Speaker 1: it as having any bearing at all on the office,
Speaker 1: Like we got a female and it's a completely you know,
Speaker 1: different world and everything. And of course, in the same
Speaker 1: way like it took season one too be able to
Speaker 1: get free of the English show, you know, like season
Speaker 1: one Parks was too close probably still and I think
Speaker 1: we figured that out. We didn't have a pilot because
Speaker 1: Ben was now running NBC and Ben hooked us straight
Speaker 1: to series for Parks, and so by the time we
Speaker 1: looked at the footage of the pilot, we already shooting
Speaker 1: episode three or something from Parks. But we kind of
Speaker 1: steered it around. Part of it was I remember thinking, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: it's not all about a crazy central character. It's more
Speaker 1: like thirty Rock maybe, where the central character is surrounded
Speaker 1: by crazy and like when we kind of made that adjustment,
Speaker 1: it seemed to work better. But but Amy's like very
Speaker 1: different from Steve. She's a different type of performer and
Speaker 1: what way, well, like I don't think she can hide
Speaker 1: her intelligence. Like one of to me, one of Steve's
Speaker 1: um real gifts is you can stare at his face
Speaker 1: and he's doing something really stupid and you can't tell
Speaker 1: that he is aware that is stupid, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. He completely hides his intelligence, and Amy probably
Speaker 1: could if she wanted to, but chooses not to, and
Speaker 1: she just she doesn't hide it. And I think maybe
Speaker 1: it's also being a woman, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's like it means something different to hide your intelligence.
Speaker 1: It's more retro and you know, uncool, probably to hide
Speaker 1: your intelligence as a woman. So it didn't fit great
Speaker 1: to have her play naive. She had to be a
Speaker 1: little smarter. What do you think was the bigger loss,
Speaker 1: Michael or Steve? Huh wow? Oh yeah, well, um, I
Speaker 1: do think that when we said goodbye to Steve, it
Speaker 1: became really clear how much the crew loved him, and
Speaker 1: the stories from different crew members was really sweet. I
Speaker 1: mean I remember like when forty year old Virgin was
Speaker 1: still in theaters and he was the biggest movie star
Speaker 1: in the country, and we were shooting I think the Dundee's,
Speaker 1: and um, we were in a parking lot like of
Speaker 1: a defunct Black Angus. It's two or three in the morning,
Speaker 1: and his entire role is to drive the car away
Speaker 1: from Jenna after saying his line. And he's doing it
Speaker 1: at three in the morning. Take after take after take
Speaker 1: to support her in that scene where so many people
Speaker 1: would have been like, yeah, yeah, put the photo double in. Goodbye,
Speaker 1: And I'm doing a show with him now. I'm doing
Speaker 1: Space Force with him now, and he's number one on
Speaker 1: the call sheet. Same deal. We just had our rat party.
Speaker 1: The crew came up to me. They were all like,
Speaker 1: it starts at the top. The vibe on the set
Speaker 1: is so beautiful and everybody, you know, such a great
Speaker 1: feeling and and everything. But you know, one of the
Speaker 1: things that I got out of working with Steve was
Speaker 1: like I didn't really have an improv background, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Like I had come from Sketch Comedy
Speaker 1: and then Simpson's. And when we started working together, he
Speaker 1: told me about this book Truth and Comedy, which is
Speaker 1: kind of like the bible of the Chicago improv world.
Speaker 1: And I found that to be really the key to
Speaker 1: kind of how he worked, and it saved us a
Speaker 1: bunch of times. When one of my favorite memories of
Speaker 1: Steve as a producer or as a you know, not
Speaker 1: as an actor, is we were doing Dundee's and the
Speaker 1: problem was we went to a Black Angus and then
Speaker 1: we went to to Chili's restaurant, and we didn't actually
Speaker 1: get any money for it. You know, it's not like
Speaker 1: what they paid us a lot of money to use Chili's.
Speaker 1: What they did was they sent us their branded decorations
Speaker 1: for set deck. So we say, yeah, we've got the
Speaker 1: menus and we got some signs and stuff. Anyway, so
Speaker 1: we're there. We're at this defunct black Angus for three
Speaker 1: days shooting with all the chili stuff, and like on
Speaker 1: day two, the Chili's lawyers call and they go, oh, hey,
Speaker 1: we just looked at the script, the part where Pam
Speaker 1: is so drunk she throws up. That's not gonna work
Speaker 1: for us. We're being sued for overserving patrons and we can't.
Speaker 1: Uh that's a bad look, so you can't do that.
Speaker 1: And I was like cocky at this point. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well we're shot two thirds of our shoot, you know.
Speaker 1: And I turned to the Universal executives and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: check the contract with the Chilis because obviously, you know,
Speaker 1: they don't have editorial control. And they're like, uh, there's
Speaker 1: no contract. There's no written contract. We just thought we'd
Speaker 1: say fifty dollars of set deck, and we just did
Speaker 1: it on a handshake. So then we were like, well, wait, wait, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: what do we do? What do we do? And they
Speaker 1: were like, well, you don't have to take that note,
Speaker 1: but in that case, you can't show any of the
Speaker 1: branded set decoration that we sent you, which meant that
Speaker 1: we would have had to shoot go back to the
Speaker 1: beginning and not used the two days that we already shot,
Speaker 1: which we couldn't afford, right because it was hundreds of
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars. So I was like getting ill in
Speaker 1: the corner, freaking out, and Steve notices and it's like,
Speaker 1: what's up? And I told him the situation and the
Speaker 1: thing that was so cool to me was this improv thing,
Speaker 1: like he had utter faith always that he would his
Speaker 1: creativity would never flag, that he would be able to
Speaker 1: find an answer when it was necessary, Like that's what
Speaker 1: all that improv training was. And I completely shot down.
Speaker 1: I was like going to blow my brains out, and
Speaker 1: he was like okay, all right, well all right, and
Speaker 1: then he came up with this notion of the manager
Speaker 1: being interviewed and saying that Pam had a lifetime band
Speaker 1: from Chili's and it solved everything. And I really was like,
Speaker 1: huh that's a different way to live than I'm used to.
Speaker 1: You know, the overthing here doesn't doesn't do that right.
Speaker 1: I had all my plans had just been thrown for
Speaker 1: a loop, and uh so I feel like I try
Speaker 1: to take that away. I think it's like a little
Speaker 1: bit of a religion for him to be an improv guy.
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Speaker 1: you and start exploring. I discovered the fourth dot Org
Speaker 1: brought to you by the United States Fourth Service and
Speaker 1: the AD Council. What do you remember about because you
Speaker 1: obviously you came back for Goodbye Michael? Um? How did
Speaker 1: you feel writing him off? I mean, did you did
Speaker 1: you feel like the show was going to should go
Speaker 1: on past him? Um? Yeah, I did, because you know,
Speaker 1: part of the painful part of my job is as
Speaker 1: the showrunner, you're not done when the rap right. You've
Speaker 1: got to go edit all of the things. So, like
Speaker 1: at least the third maybe more of my job was
Speaker 1: sitting with the editors cutting the show down and it
Speaker 1: then it made a huge difference in our show because
Speaker 1: our rough cuts were thirty eight minutes long and we
Speaker 1: had to get down to only one oh three or whatever.
Speaker 1: So um, that's an enormous amount to throw out, and
Speaker 1: it was very painful because we could get the show
Speaker 1: down to twenty six minutes or something with with just
Speaker 1: cutting the fat, but then after that you got to
Speaker 1: cut the muscle. You know, there's good scenes that are
Speaker 1: not going to be broadcast. And you know, once we
Speaker 1: got five or six years into the show, the full
Speaker 1: ensemble was really working and capable of doing really good stuff.
Speaker 1: And so the best argument to me to continue was
Speaker 1: it would let all these people who didn't have as
Speaker 1: much screen time have more screen time. And Steve didn't
Speaker 1: obviously didn't want us to shut down, so I kind
Speaker 1: of felt like it was it was good that we
Speaker 1: would do. Okay, Now, the difficulty is that people are
Speaker 1: not created to be leads, and you know, all that
Speaker 1: stuff that I was saying in the beginning of positioning
Speaker 1: Steve in season two and finding you know, ways that
Speaker 1: he uh has good intentions and is more of a
Speaker 1: lead and everything, Like I knew the Dwight had been
Speaker 1: created to be the foil to these people and was
Speaker 1: a charactery creation to begin with. Andy Bernard was created
Speaker 1: to be the Stanford version of Dwight. You know, in
Speaker 1: season three, like, uh, you know, Jim shows up in
Speaker 1: Stanford and he's got this weirdo who's like a preppy weirdo,
Speaker 1: like a different type of weirdo, and um and well,
Speaker 1: and also he was an idiot, like unlike Dwight, who
Speaker 1: you know, Dwight was an idiot in his own way,
Speaker 1: but I mean, like sorry bad at his job, Like
Speaker 1: he had been positioned as being not good at his job.
Speaker 1: He was very good at his job. He punched holes
Speaker 1: in walls, you know, he wouldn't needed a lot of
Speaker 1: It's the same kind of moving the character over that
Speaker 1: we did in season two, and I believe Paul was
Speaker 1: doing that with Andy, but it was different because we
Speaker 1: were Everybody was paying close attention to the show at
Speaker 1: that point, so there was definitely a lot of Like
Speaker 1: there was a lot of for some reason. The thing
Speaker 1: with the Office is like people get super into it obviously,
Speaker 1: which is great, but then there's then there's so much
Speaker 1: attention and worry about changing it or touching it or
Speaker 1: you know, don't touch my my beloved thing. Right, So
Speaker 1: in the same way there was all this negative attention
Speaker 1: about adapting the British show. I think that there was
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, worry about making any changes
Speaker 1: to it, right. Well, but I think you you think
Speaker 1: of the office right as this place of stasis, right,
Speaker 1: and we're all there in one room, and there's the
Speaker 1: whole bullpen and everybody's there all the time, and it's
Speaker 1: all the same. But I think one of the special
Speaker 1: things that you did was you created sort of a
Speaker 1: kinetic energy by change, by constantly changing it and not
Speaker 1: keeping it the same. Bringing in the Stanford branch and
Speaker 1: Ed and Rashida, or Jenna leaving and going to art
Speaker 1: school or so much of that was being driven by
Speaker 1: Pam and Jim and the romantic storyline and the way
Speaker 1: those two characters were set up. They were soulmates. And
Speaker 1: what I didn't want to do was, like so many shows,
Speaker 1: they come together, they break apart, they come together, they
Speaker 1: break apart. You know, it didn't seem real. I felt like,
Speaker 1: when they finally get together, they're gonna be together. I
Speaker 1: don't see anything breaking them up. So then the question was, well,
Speaker 1: how do you spin this out for a certain number
Speaker 1: of years? Right? So, um, you know, so a lot
Speaker 1: of it was what are the obstacles? And we you know,
Speaker 1: when I was trying to figure out what came next
Speaker 1: in the show. I didn't have an entire season broken.
Speaker 1: I would be able to have about a half a
Speaker 1: season arct out. And the thought with Pam and Jim was, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, season one, she's obviously with Roy. Well, actually,
Speaker 1: season one, the only kind of thing was he was
Speaker 1: obviously pining, and then he starts dating first girl, right right,
Speaker 1: So season two she's with Roy and he's getting closer
Speaker 1: and closer to confessing his feelings and he rolls the dice.
Speaker 1: And you always feel like when you're watching a TV show,
Speaker 1: you you're worry about the yank, you know, that's what
Speaker 1: we call it in the writer's room, where the jeopardy
Speaker 1: of the episode is something you don't really believe because
Speaker 1: it would change the show. You know, like you don't
Speaker 1: really believe like Rain is going to go work for Staples.
Speaker 1: Why it's going to leave the show. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: he's too important to the show. You're not gonna set
Speaker 1: him the Staples. So we set up the situation where
Speaker 1: Jim was like, well, maybe I should take that job
Speaker 1: in Stanford, and um, we were like, is that a yank?
Speaker 1: I don't know. We're worried, is that a yank? And
Speaker 1: then we were like, let's let's put him in Stanford,
Speaker 1: you know, let's really make it happen, and that'll give
Speaker 1: us a whole new lease on the Jim Pam thing
Speaker 1: because it's a new obstacle, and that cooled it off
Speaker 1: a lot. And then by the time he finally came back,
Speaker 1: he had Karen and that gave us another thing. And
Speaker 1: then around the like beach games area, the obstacle was Okay,
Speaker 1: the obstacle is now Pam. It's in Pam's court. She
Speaker 1: wants to be with Jim, but she's too timid, and
Speaker 1: so then she walks on the fire and we were
Speaker 1: like kind of got past that obstacle, and then eventually
Speaker 1: was like, well, I can't see any more obstacles. Gotta
Speaker 1: get it together and get them together sooner, like slightly
Speaker 1: sooner than the audience thinks, so that you could preserve
Speaker 1: you know, a surprise to it. Uh yeah. So by
Speaker 1: that drove an awful lot of the changes and bringing
Speaker 1: people in and everything. Another thing that was super unique
Speaker 1: about what you did, and I remember you talking about
Speaker 1: it when it was going on, but that you wanted
Speaker 1: the episode it's to air roughly when they were happening, right,
Speaker 1: So it's obvious every network show once Christmas around Christmas
Speaker 1: time or whatever, but that it was happening sort of
Speaker 1: within the calendar year, and that you chose to keep
Speaker 1: the form and the format of each episode is one day.
Speaker 1: It takes place over one day, and in the summer,
Speaker 1: the camera crew goes on their holiday and their vacation
Speaker 1: and they're not there, so we don't see it as
Speaker 1: opposed to Ross and Rachel kissing and then four months
Speaker 1: passing and the next moment is the same moment that
Speaker 1: we left with, because the audience now has to work
Speaker 1: and find out what happened, what happened? Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I think that that was um, you know that that
Speaker 1: works well. Uh. I mean obviously Friends did good too,
Speaker 1: oh I know, But that was a conscious decision for
Speaker 1: you that it was important that it seemed real. And
Speaker 1: again also like if you're going to try and stay
Speaker 1: in the pace, you got to catch up over the
Speaker 1: summer somehow. I mean, we did it with weight loss,
Speaker 1: we we did a different type thing, yes, but m yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean it helped with the storytelling
Speaker 1: to jump a little bit, because the other thing is like,
Speaker 1: with the Office being so realistic, sometimes it is hard
Speaker 1: to do a restart or to jump and you sometimes
Speaker 1: you have to shoot down ideas because you're like, well,
Speaker 1: how did they get there from yesterday? So sometimes a
Speaker 1: little uh time jump is really good for that, right,
Speaker 1: why did you come back? Well, two questions and two
Speaker 1: questions one. Um, the Office has a beginning, a middle,
Speaker 1: and an end, and it was my belief that you
Speaker 1: knew fairly early what that end was going to be. Well,
Speaker 1: it did shift though, because like my idea for the
Speaker 1: end in the beginning was like around season two, I
Speaker 1: had this idea that you know, I was a big fan.
Speaker 1: First of all, I love documentaries and I was a
Speaker 1: big fan of seven Up. If you remember that one,
Speaker 1: well seven Up changes every seven years, it was fourteen
Speaker 1: up Up. And what it is is they are following
Speaker 1: a group of British seven year olds. This is guy
Speaker 1: Michael Appted and and he's been doing it. They just
Speaker 1: did like sixty up or something. That's that's how old
Speaker 1: the segmentary is. They're following these guys for every stage
Speaker 1: of their life. And um, I think that is like
Speaker 1: a reality show thing too of like, oh, it's Survivor
Speaker 1: Survivors over and let's get them together on a stage
Speaker 1: and see what happened. And I thought, well, this is cool, right,
Speaker 1: we could get them together on a stage and you
Speaker 1: think that it didn't work out for certain things that
Speaker 1: you want, but the documentary is still filming. Things are
Speaker 1: going to happen backstage at the wrap up. That was
Speaker 1: kind of my notion was that I would provide an
Speaker 1: unhappy ending for Jim and Pam in the last episode
Speaker 1: that looked like the series, and then I would do
Speaker 1: the wrap up and I'd have a happy ending at
Speaker 1: the wrap up something like that. Anyway, this is the
Speaker 1: obviously five seven years out, so this is just a thought.
Speaker 1: So then the idea of a wedding also was a
Speaker 1: good one because it attracts people back. So I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the idea was, let's jump a year, you know,
Speaker 1: like if you jump a year, you can really find
Speaker 1: out what happened to everybody in more of a rappie
Speaker 1: up way. And then we're like, well, let's do both,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And it made sense kind
Speaker 1: of like the if I was the documentary crew and
Speaker 1: I knew Dwight was getting married. That's when I would
Speaker 1: do my reunion show because everybody's coming in for the wedding,
Speaker 1: because otherwise I don't think I can get everybody, like
Speaker 1: I can't get Toby to come back from wherever he
Speaker 1: was Poland Yeah, and were you were you ready for
Speaker 1: the show to end that season nine? I mean, for
Speaker 1: for me personally, this was the most wonderful, you know,
Speaker 1: experience in all aspects. It was like creatively super interesting,
Speaker 1: It was successful. It had a great story in the
Speaker 1: sense that it didn't look like it was going to
Speaker 1: be successful and then it turned out to be successful,
Speaker 1: which is obviously the best kind of story. And also
Speaker 1: it was me being kind of daring a little bit,
Speaker 1: like to take on doing the remake was a little
Speaker 1: bit fraught with danger, so I did something a little bold,
Speaker 1: you know. And it was also like there hadn't been
Speaker 1: shows like this really, so it was a little bit
Speaker 1: artistically bold. I don't know. It was a great story, obviously,
Speaker 1: and I really loved the whole experience, and everybody was
Speaker 1: so much of family by the time, and part of
Speaker 1: it was the fact we were in this weird little
Speaker 1: lot all by ourselves and we had every meal together,
Speaker 1: you know, and it wasn't that show busy. So it
Speaker 1: was a tremendous, tremendously wonderful experience. So when definitely what
Speaker 1: I knew was I wanted to be there to do
Speaker 1: it at the end. And I also realized how much
Speaker 1: more pleasurable it is to be the show runner than
Speaker 1: to be an executive producer who gives notes that sometimes
Speaker 1: they're taken and sometimes you know, it's not as much fun,
Speaker 1: uh of an experience, And there is something very personal
Speaker 1: about the show. I mean, part of it is the
Speaker 1: whole docu thing, the realism and the people and the
Speaker 1: truth and beauty and all that kind of stuff like
Speaker 1: that was everything I felt was important about writing for TV,
Speaker 1: and it all was able to happen in that show.
Speaker 1: So after the show was over, I was pretty spent,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I did it. You know, I'm done. I don't know
Speaker 1: if I need anything else, you know, And so yeah,
Speaker 1: so it kind of felt like, when you're gonna get
Speaker 1: this opportunity, let's see what a great ending is, you know.
Speaker 1: So I guess maybe I like the idea of of that.
Speaker 1: I do think it plays well, now when you look
Speaker 1: at Netflix, like, I think the fact that it has
Speaker 1: an ending is a positive totally. I think people like
Speaker 1: it that has an ending, and then you can start
Speaker 1: up up again if you want it. Did you know
Speaker 1: that on the day doctor King was shot, the all
Speaker 1: black security detail normally assigned to him was called off.
Speaker 1: They're the ones who would not allow him to stay
Speaker 1: at any hotel with balconies. That security union was reassigned.
Speaker 1: I was a man there in And did you know
Speaker 1: that on the day doctor King was shot, two black
Speaker 1: firemen stationed across the street and one black police detective
Speaker 1: who was surveiling King. We're all taken off the job.
Speaker 1: What was the emergency that caused? Usually moved as she
Speaker 1: did you ever asked all about? And this is the
Speaker 1: MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now listen on
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. And we're live here outside the Perez
Speaker 1: family home, just waiting for the and there they go,
Speaker 1: almost on time. This morning. Mom is coming out the
Speaker 1: front door, strong with a double arm kid carry looks
Speaker 1: like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh,
Speaker 1: but the diaper bag wasn't closed, Diapers and toys are everywhere. Oh,
Speaker 1: but mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle
Speaker 1: for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks
Speaker 1: to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in
Speaker 1: the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed and they're off. Ah,
Speaker 1: but looks like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is
Speaker 1: still on the roof of the car and there it goes. Ah.
Speaker 1: That's a shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't
Speaker 1: sweat the small stuff, just nail the big stuff, like
Speaker 1: making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right
Speaker 1: seat for their agent's eyes. Learn more at NHTSA dot
Speaker 1: gov slash the Right Seat visits h s A dot
Speaker 1: gov slash the Right Seat. Brought to you by Mizza
Speaker 1: and the Ad Council from Cavalry Audio, the studio that
Speaker 1: brought you The Devil Within and The Shadow Girls, comes
Speaker 1: a new true crime podcast, The Pink Moon Murders. The
Speaker 1: local sheriff believes there may be more than one killery.
Speaker 1: It's been four days since those bodies were found and
Speaker 1: there's no arrest. As it this morning, they were afraid
Speaker 1: it's face it out in that area. What if they
Speaker 1: come back or whatever. It scared me to death. Like
Speaker 1: it scared me, I was very very intimidating to live here.
Speaker 1: Crazy to think you go to sleep one night, maybe
Speaker 1: snuggling with your loved one, and never wake up, or
Speaker 1: maybe you wake up in a struggle for your life,
Speaker 1: which you lose. Joint host David Radiman as he explores
Speaker 1: one fateful when evil descended upon small town, Ohio killed
Speaker 1: eight members of an Ohio family in a pre planned execution.
Speaker 1: The family was targeted, most of them targeted while they
Speaker 1: were sleeping. The Pink Moon Murders is available on February
Speaker 1: twenty second, and you can follow The Pink Moon Murders
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Last year, The Office was the
Speaker 1: number one show on Netflix, streamed over fifty two billion minutes.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that it has endured? Mhmm, Well,
Speaker 1: I mean we did put a lot of good work
Speaker 1: into it, you know. I think there was a lot
Speaker 1: of talented people assembled for that show. It was kind
Speaker 1: of a dream team. And I think that the approach
Speaker 1: that we took to value character, comedy and behavior as
Speaker 1: opposed to jokes. Like jokes kind of don't last that long,
Speaker 1: but you fall in love with the characters and you
Speaker 1: you always have something to see, like and the stuff.
Speaker 1: The work that you guys did also gave so much
Speaker 1: rewatchability to it, you know, because there you could follow
Speaker 1: the story, but you guys were constantly acting in all moments,
Speaker 1: Like you can watch the entire show looking at one
Speaker 1: character and it's interesting because they're doing their thing, they're
Speaker 1: being in character, and they're working the way and being
Speaker 1: funny in the background. I think the layers maybe help
Speaker 1: the rewatching. And I think that the voice of the
Speaker 1: show is a very humanistic voice too, you know, if
Speaker 1: there's a message or something that that was maybe in
Speaker 1: the finale, just about the importance of just decency and
Speaker 1: ordinary lives are worthy of, you know, being on TV.
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's all good stuff. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: occurring to me truly, And I think about who the
Speaker 1: show appeals to now, and it's so often it's young
Speaker 1: people and even younger and people who are potentially marginalized
Speaker 1: or they don't quite fit in this awkward teenage years
Speaker 1: or high school college, and the show appreciates people of
Speaker 1: all shapes and sizes, and but it does it in
Speaker 1: a funny way which young people like too. Yeah you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody gets to the pluses and minuses. It's not like
Speaker 1: anybody's excluded. It's a pretty inclusive show, yeah, which I
Speaker 1: think is great. And uh, the other thing about kids, like,
Speaker 1: I didn't understand why it would be heel to kids
Speaker 1: because a lot of people were like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: it's the workplace, right, what do kids know about the workplace?
Speaker 1: But it's actually really similar to the experience of being
Speaker 1: a kid in school, because you know your teacher is
Speaker 1: your boss, and you're sitting at your little desk next
Speaker 1: to somebody else, so you may or may not like
Speaker 1: you know, and you're compelled to listen to whatever boring
Speaker 1: crap you know it's coming down down from above. So
Speaker 1: I think they relate to it from that standpoint. I
Speaker 1: also think, I wonder what you think that. I think
Speaker 1: the show is subversive in a way. It's looking at
Speaker 1: issues or race or the brilliant gay witch hunt episode
Speaker 1: that you wrote, and it's looking at things in a
Speaker 1: subversive way, which I feel like the older you get
Speaker 1: is less appealing, But that sort of young idea of
Speaker 1: doing something a little bit under the radar and that
Speaker 1: it's um cool. I don't know, it's tough. You know,
Speaker 1: it's hard to talk about what you're doing. I think
Speaker 1: that there's something um that always makes me worried when
Speaker 1: you talk about comedy or whatever, if at some point
Speaker 1: you start to be like, I don't want to lose
Speaker 1: the ability to do it. I don't want to talk
Speaker 1: about it too much. YEA interesting. Yeah, there's that parable
Speaker 1: of the centipede. I think it is where they have
Speaker 1: hundreds of legs and when the centipede tried to think
Speaker 1: about how it was that his legs all worked properly,
Speaker 1: they all got taggled up, but he couldn't he couldn't walk.
Speaker 1: I don't know, what do you think the legacy if
Speaker 1: the office is well. I do think that it did.
Speaker 1: Like that thing that I was saying about, maybe if
Speaker 1: we go to NBC will change the boat of comedy.
Speaker 1: I think it did. You know, it seems like a
Speaker 1: lot of the shows that came after are, if not
Speaker 1: completely doc you definitely have that style. And the people
Speaker 1: went on to do a lot of great things, and
Speaker 1: I loved it all this new people like the show
Speaker 1: so much. We used to have a lot of visitors
Speaker 1: from different make a Wish type things, and I always
Speaker 1: thought that was indicative of something, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like people with all these health problems would get so
Speaker 1: much solace out of the show. And I always was
Speaker 1: proud of that. But I didn't really know what what
Speaker 1: what what it was, But it seems like it's a
Speaker 1: It was a valuable thing to have made. We did
Speaker 1: a good job making it. People like it and it
Speaker 1: provides something good for them. I was at a children's
Speaker 1: hospital last year and um, we were going room to
Speaker 1: room and one of the administrators would go to the
Speaker 1: next room and make sure that the kid was able
Speaker 1: to be seen and we could still kind of go
Speaker 1: on our little tour. And she came back and she said,
Speaker 1: so he doesn't know that you're coming. And I turned
Speaker 1: the corner and I walk into his room and he's
Speaker 1: got tubes everywhere and he's watching the Office It's TV.
Speaker 1: And it like took my breath away. That's something that
Speaker 1: we've created. It can really mean something to people and
Speaker 1: give them comfort or a laugh in a moment that
Speaker 1: they have a difficult time. That's something valuable. Yeah, I definitely,
Speaker 1: I definitely agree with that. That is nice. I mean,
Speaker 1: you guys in the cast feel it more than I
Speaker 1: do because I walk around and doesn't come up all
Speaker 1: the time, but like if I walk around with Paul,
Speaker 1: it comes up all the time. Like like I was
Speaker 1: just walking down the street with Paul the other day
Speaker 1: and I hear the squeal of you know, breaks and
Speaker 1: somebody you know just turned his car around and did
Speaker 1: a you turn because he saw Paul out of the
Speaker 1: corner of his eye and you know, jumped out to
Speaker 1: tell him how much the show meant to him and everything.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's crazy. It is way bigger now than
Speaker 1: it was when it was on Thursday. Interesting, I knew
Speaker 1: it was big now, but I didn't know it was
Speaker 1: felt bigger. But you know, like sometimes I feel almost
Speaker 1: bad that you guys are walking around and unable to
Speaker 1: escape it for the slightest second, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'd never have wanted to be an actor, so maybe
Speaker 1: this is just maybe it's fun, but it's a heavy.
Speaker 1: It's a heavy thing in a way, right, because's like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, it's very very constant, and and it's
Speaker 1: television and it's special, and they're watching it as they
Speaker 1: lay in bed or there in their box or shorts
Speaker 1: or you know, there and their underwear, and they're watching
Speaker 1: you and they think they know you. You're intimate with them.
Speaker 1: And I wonder also, like to what extent um, you know,
Speaker 1: the changes in the TV business have changed things, because
Speaker 1: like it doesn't seem like there will be a lot
Speaker 1: of two episode shows made in the future, and the
Speaker 1: amount and that stuff, the sausage thing that I was
Speaker 1: talking about before, Like when I turn on the show,
Speaker 1: there's bits and jokes and like, like there's so many
Speaker 1: with two episodes, plus all the subplots and all the
Speaker 1: like cold opens and the little side. There's really a
Speaker 1: lot of ideas packed into that, you know, into the
Speaker 1: show and all the stuff happening in the background and performances. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's worth me saying to you the
Speaker 1: degree to what I mean, you are a director, You're
Speaker 1: an actor, Fern, you played Fern in the office. You're
Speaker 1: fantastic performance um. But you the degree to which you
Speaker 1: made decisions from the beginning and are so purposeful in
Speaker 1: terms of actors is amazing. The idea that you wanted
Speaker 1: reality and that behavior was so important for you on
Speaker 1: this show its actors. It's really good for actors. Well
Speaker 1: thanks for saying that. Yeah, no, I um, I do
Speaker 1: love that part of it, and and maybe part of
Speaker 1: it is just that it's not my part. Right If
Speaker 1: I'm writing a script, it's hard to say. And now
Speaker 1: he touched his head in a very you know, important
Speaker 1: way or whatever, you can't really put that in the script.
Speaker 1: So it's always really fun to see other people adding
Speaker 1: all this creativity because you you've gotten you know, you've
Speaker 1: gotten it too as far as you can get it,
Speaker 1: and then you hand it over and then you just
Speaker 1: like marveling at the people that run with it. And
Speaker 1: then I guess it's sort of improv because like I
Speaker 1: think part of the yes and spirit of improv and
Speaker 1: the team aspect of improv is you take something and
Speaker 1: you add to it. You don't contradict it, you kind
Speaker 1: of elaborate on it. And like in the Halloween episode,
Speaker 1: I had written a whole scene between Dwight and Michael.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember this, but there's a
Speaker 1: scene where Dwight comes in and is agitating for Michael
Speaker 1: to get rid of Jim or somebody. Yes, he's like
Speaker 1: he's like a sith lord and Michael's got another head
Speaker 1: on it, and just just at the very end, it
Speaker 1: was like no, no, no long scene. At the very end,
Speaker 1: I had some like notion of Michael talking to his
Speaker 1: head about Dwight in his presence, and they just ran
Speaker 1: with that and we didn't end up using anything that
Speaker 1: was written in the scene. We like started the scene
Speaker 1: two lines after their improv began, you know, And it
Speaker 1: was so good. It was such a joy to watch
Speaker 1: that the run with this notion. But when like, when
Speaker 1: you think about it, improv is this mix of writing
Speaker 1: and acting, and it's more well known. I think that
Speaker 1: actor will do that, right, They'll they'll be in the moment,
Speaker 1: they'll be in their characters and they'll make up what
Speaker 1: they have to say. But it's the same process mentally
Speaker 1: that we're doing in the writer's room, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. We're we're thinking of what to say, and
Speaker 1: then we're pretending really hard to be the actor in
Speaker 1: the situation in order to see what comes. What's the
Speaker 1: next line? You know, what can you think about? So
Speaker 1: we're sort of coming at it from two two angles.
Speaker 1: I guess what are you most thankful for. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: really thankful obviously to have had the experience, like I
Speaker 1: said after every season, because it was exactly what I
Speaker 1: wanted from an artistic point of view, you know, just
Speaker 1: the kind of stuff I like. And to be able
Speaker 1: to have so many people with me on the ride
Speaker 1: who were so much fun, and that we managed to
Speaker 1: do it and still like each other is pretty cool.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it was just the best experience. Well, Greg,
Speaker 1: you changed my life, and you changed the lives of
Speaker 1: every single person you invited to join you on this journey,
Speaker 1: and we're stuck with each other. Now, that was what
Speaker 1: I was going to say, were ghost Chip totally? Do
Speaker 1: you remember going to the TV Land Awards that was?
Speaker 1: That was so crazy? Yes, I'm not. I have an
Speaker 1: rs v P at least for the next decade. I'm
Speaker 1: going to stay away. But has anyone told the story
Speaker 1: of that? No? I don't think so. Yeah, you should
Speaker 1: tell we want this was odd. The Office was still
Speaker 1: on the air and we won the award for Future
Speaker 1: Classic Television Show and Greg, you were there with me, yes,
Speaker 1: And they had an opening number where I think it
Speaker 1: was Vanessa Williams. Maybe it was singing, and she was
Speaker 1: singing a song about all the different characters on different
Speaker 1: TV shows. And it started off pretty respectfully with you know,
Speaker 1: like the guy that played Greg Brady or something. I
Speaker 1: forget that, but she would say the person's character name
Speaker 1: and their or their actual name, and then that person
Speaker 1: would slide in on a hook on a hook over
Speaker 1: the audio of the audience zip lining yeah and if
Speaker 1: it started off kind of cool and people are like, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: and then she then she stopped using the the actual
Speaker 1: actor's names. That just said the character's names, and it
Speaker 1: was like horse shack and he would slide in, and
Speaker 1: then the people started banging into each other, like slabs
Speaker 1: of beef in the slaughterhouse. And then she started, uh,
Speaker 1: and then she didn't even know the character's names. It
Speaker 1: was like the guy from the Great American Hero and
Speaker 1: he'd slide in and bang into the other people, and
Speaker 1: they were like on these hooks about the audience. And
Speaker 1: I looked at you guys as you were all looking
Speaker 1: up and like, oh go, oh yeah, well yeah, we're
Speaker 1: we're all stuck together, and it's it's uh, we'll see
Speaker 1: what what happens in the future. Brings UM, well, eventually
Speaker 1: they'll turn on us. We can't be this successful it's popular.
Speaker 1: Something will turn They'll be like, oh generation Z office love.
Speaker 1: That was everybody. Yeah, um, thank you. I mean we
Speaker 1: covered so much, you were here so long. I'm so thankful.
Speaker 1: It's super fun. I just would have been you know,
Speaker 1: even if they weren't recording, It would have been nice
Speaker 1: to have the conversation over a coffee with you. You know,
Speaker 1: I honestly couldn't think of a better man to be
Speaker 1: stuck with. Thank you, Greg for coming on and and
Speaker 1: for sharing so much with all of us. And I
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly end this episode without giving thanks to you,
Speaker 1: every single one of my listeners that has been with
Speaker 1: me every step of the way on this wild ride.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you so much, and I hope that we
Speaker 1: have brought just a small fraction of the joy into
Speaker 1: your lives that you've brought into ours. So please go
Speaker 1: out there, hug your friends, hug your family, and remember
Speaker 1: the lesson that Greg has burned into all of our
Speaker 1: minds by now that each and every one of us
Speaker 1: weird human beings, is deserving of love, and there's always
Speaker 1: beauty in ordinary things. And since I believe we're all
Speaker 1: deserving of love. I would like to remind you about
Speaker 1: our call in episodes where I will be showing you
Speaker 1: guys all of the love. So be sure to send
Speaker 1: me those voice memos that you can record on the
Speaker 1: voice memo app on your phone. Email me at the
Speaker 1: Office deep Dive at gmail dot com with your questions, comments,
Speaker 1: special requests, stories, take out orders, whatever, Leave your name,
Speaker 1: your phone number, where you're from, and then anything else
Speaker 1: you want to tell me. I'm so excited to hear
Speaker 1: what you have to say. Oh and of course don't
Speaker 1: forget to tune in next week because we have a
Speaker 1: really fun episode coming up. I'm not gonna lie. I'm
Speaker 1: going back to Scranton where it all started, and you
Speaker 1: are coming with me. Happy Thanksgiving everyone, Yeah. The Office
Speaker 1: Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,
Speaker 1: alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is
Speaker 1: Tessa Kramer. Our producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia.
Speaker 1: My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our
Speaker 1: theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend
Speaker 1: Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandski.
Speaker 1: Would you say your name and your role on the Office? Okay, um,
Speaker 1: my name is Greg Daniels and I was the adapter
Speaker 1: and showrunner for most of the Office. How about that?
Speaker 1: I mean that is such a long identifier that will
Speaker 1: never play that. I'm Fred, I'm ver Hi, I'm Greg Daniels.
Speaker 1: I was the showrunner of the Office. Well done, Thank you,
Speaker 1: my friend. Now you're directing me. Oh yes, shoes on
Speaker 1: the other foot. Oh my gosh. Did you know that
Speaker 1: on the day Dr King was shot, the all black
Speaker 1: security detail normally assigned to him was called off. They're
Speaker 1: the ones who would not allow him to stay at
Speaker 1: any hotel with balconies. Did you ever asked what this
Speaker 1: was all about? This is the MLK tapes. The first
Speaker 1: episodes are available now. Listen on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Halbern,
Speaker 1: host of Deep Cover. Our new season is about a
Speaker 1: lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. He bribed judges
Speaker 1: and even helped a hit man walk free, until one
Speaker 1: day when he started talking with the FBI and promised
Speaker 1: that he could take the mob down I've spent the
Speaker 1: past year trying to figure route, why he flipped and
Speaker 1: what he was really after. Listen to deep Cover on
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I'm Paris Hilton and this is Trapped
Speaker 1: in Treatment, a weekly podcast of shocking survivor experiences and
Speaker 1: stories from an industry plagued by controversy. With my host
Speaker 1: Caroline Cole and Rebecca Mellinger, we will uncover the truth
Speaker 1: of one team treatment facility each season. First up, Provo
Speaker 1: Canyon School. This one is personal. Listen to Trapped in
Speaker 1: Treatment on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.