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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and Welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori

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Speaker 1: with Hugh Lynn. High Tower has a degree in journalism

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Speaker 1: from the University of Kentucky. She teaches classes in the

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Speaker 1: UCLA Extension Writer's Program, works with private clients as a

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Speaker 1: manuscript consultant and writing coach. Author of numerous thrillers, including

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Speaker 1: the latest book, The Enlightenment Project. Lynn, it's a pleasure

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Speaker 1: having you on the program. It's so great to be here.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. How did you get involved in

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Speaker 1: the kind of possession, hauntings and demonic end of what

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about tonight. Well, you know, like

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Speaker 1: all of us, when I was years ago, I saw

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Speaker 1: the movie The Exorcist and read the book and I

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Speaker 1: found it terrifying. And what really scared me was that

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Speaker 1: it was based on an actual case. That's right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so I really started wondering, well, what happened into

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Speaker 1: the boy that the book was based on when he

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Speaker 1: grew up? What kind of life did he had and

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Speaker 1: did he you know, you tell people, do you tell

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Speaker 1: some when you're dating? Oh? By the way, I was

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Speaker 1: possessed as a child. But I'm okay now. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, I heard he just passed away in real life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you heard that too, See what I heard? He

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Speaker 1: just passed away. I did not know that. You know,

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Speaker 1: he never spoke publicly about it, but he did well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he got married, he had children, he had

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Speaker 1: a career at NASA. But I did not know he

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Speaker 1: had just passed away. Yeah, that's what I heard that

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Speaker 1: about six seven months ago, that he had passed on. Wow.

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Speaker 1: But the Exorcist movie, and I guess the book was

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Speaker 1: even more telling, wasn't it. It was? It was I

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Speaker 1: remember reading it late at night and I just was

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Speaker 1: absolutely terrified. Had to have all the lights on. And

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Speaker 1: when I wrote the Life Tigent Project, same thing. I

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Speaker 1: was terrified. I'd have all the lights on. I had

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Speaker 1: my very big dog beside me. Were you going to

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Speaker 1: get a kick out of this? Part of the Exorcism

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Speaker 1: of the Little Boy in reality took place in Saint Louis,

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Speaker 1: where I'm spending a lot of time these days, And

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Speaker 1: it was in the Election Brothers Hospital, which is no more.

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Speaker 1: But after the exorcism, they gave away or sold off

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Speaker 1: the furniture that was in that room of the hospital

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Speaker 1: that the little boy was in, and people who bought

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Speaker 1: the furniture or got it started talking about being possessed

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Speaker 1: and having strange things happened to them. It's like the

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Speaker 1: spirits attached themselves to that stuff. Yes, and you know

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Speaker 1: that's called an infestation. And maybe from the exorcist I

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Speaker 1: studied and talked to, they say about eighty percent of

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Speaker 1: their cases are infestations, which caused hauntings and caused people,

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Speaker 1: you know, to either become possessed or either to feel oppressed,

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Speaker 1: you know. And it's the actual object or the place.

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Speaker 1: So what a scary thing to do because I knew

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Speaker 1: they feeled the room up. It's selling off the furniture.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's just cruel. It is didn't work, and

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Speaker 1: I would hate to have been one of the people

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Speaker 1: to buy it. My god, were you possessed as a kid? Me? No,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't. Were you No? No, not at all, But

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Speaker 1: you know who'd admit it? Right, Nothing strange like that

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Speaker 1: ever happened to me. I mean, did you have any

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Speaker 1: kinds of experience like that? Interesting? Not really, But as

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Speaker 1: an adult I have lived in two haunted houses and

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Speaker 1: it was very uncomfortable and very terrifying the first one

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Speaker 1: we bought it, and then about a month after we

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Speaker 1: moved in, I went down in the basement. I found

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Speaker 1: a jar labeled whole water and I thought, oh, this

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Speaker 1: can't be good. If someone's left the jar holy water

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Speaker 1: in the basement, this is not a good sign. And

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Speaker 1: it was a very haunted place. We stayed there about

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Speaker 1: seven months and then we got out. Now tell us

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Speaker 1: about your worth the Enlightenment Project. Well, so, Noah Archer

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Speaker 1: is very much like this boy that was possessed as

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Speaker 1: a child, and he keeps it as a sort of

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Speaker 1: shameful secret. You know, he doesn't want anybody to know.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't know why he was singled out, and he

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Speaker 1: feels like the less, you know, time he's been sinking

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Speaker 1: on it, the better. But it's what compels him to

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Speaker 1: become a neurosurgeon because he's studying the brain. He's trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out, you know, what happened in even more

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Speaker 1: can I make sure it doesn't happen to me again?

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Speaker 1: So he initiates research that he calls the Enlightenment Project,

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Speaker 1: where he stimulates the neurons across the brain of his

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Speaker 1: patients and his goal is to treat chronic depression addiction,

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Speaker 1: and it's that the outcome is phenomenal. His patients are

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Speaker 1: doing incredibly well. And then there's the ones that are

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Speaker 1: not doing well. And what happens is it's opened up

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Speaker 1: to the door to the darkness, right because they choose

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Speaker 1: they're meditating, they can go to the light side or

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Speaker 1: they can go to the dark side, and they do,

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Speaker 1: and you're convinced that the dark side exists. Yeah, I am.

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Speaker 1: I think they're yin and yang, the the light and

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Speaker 1: the unseen world and the dark, you know. And I

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Speaker 1: do think that there's a sort of balance out there.

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Speaker 1: There's some doctors who believe that the demonic possession is

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Speaker 1: really a psychiatric condition or a mental disorder. Well that's

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Speaker 1: really interesting because these days exorcism have gone so mainstream

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Speaker 1: that the exorcist priests are the ones who are the skeptics,

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Speaker 1: and they have to be convinced that the possession is real.

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Speaker 1: And the one thing they're going to do is rule

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Speaker 1: out is it a mental disorder? You know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: now recognized as an actual psychiatric condition. So I talked

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Speaker 1: to a couple of therapists, A therapist and a psychiatrist,

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Speaker 1: and I said, well, how do you rule out mental illness? Okay?

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Speaker 1: And what they told me is that mental illness is internal,

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Speaker 1: it comes from within. And so what they decide when

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Speaker 1: they rule that out, is it whatever is tormenting these

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Speaker 1: patients and they're not able to be helped with therapy

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Speaker 1: protocols or medication and they talk to them insteady, it

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Speaker 1: it comes externally. So when they decide it's coming externally,

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Speaker 1: then they move to possession. Aren't exorcisms at an all

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Speaker 1: time high right now? I think they've quadrupled. It's it's shocking, um,

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Speaker 1: how prevalent it is. Most of the exorcism teams I

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Speaker 1: talked to are pretty much run off their feet, and

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Speaker 1: it's really escalated during the pandemic. There's an exorcism team

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Speaker 1: in California that You've got a letter on my desk

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Speaker 1: now and they and they've said that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people of very good will, you know, they are not

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Speaker 1: blaming the people that's happened to UM are are feeling

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Speaker 1: tortured and feeling tormented, and we have we are barely

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Speaker 1: able to keep up. How many of them are priests

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Speaker 1: on the team. Well, they have a combination of the

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Speaker 1: exorcist priests and then they have lay people that are

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Speaker 1: there to assist. They have they consult doctors and they

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Speaker 1: consult psychiatrists, and you know, only about five percent of

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Speaker 1: the people who are having issues are actually full unpossessed.

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Speaker 1: Most people are not. So they're very careful. They don't

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Speaker 1: they don't want to do any harm. They don't want

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Speaker 1: to put you through an exorcism when what you really

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Speaker 1: need is counseling or medication or maybe have a brain

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Speaker 1: tumor or They've got to roll all of that out,

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Speaker 1: so they're kind of hard to convince and it takes

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Speaker 1: quite some time. You know, it's gotten to be a

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Speaker 1: pretty seriously red tape bureaucratic process to get through. Well,

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Speaker 1: then Catholic churches into it in a big way, now,

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Speaker 1: isn't it Absolutely absolutely, Their exorcism ministry is really escalated

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Speaker 1: because years ago it was kind of like it was

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Speaker 1: a secret. They didn't want people to know about it.

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Speaker 1: They didn't talk about it, and it's still but now

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Speaker 1: it's mainstream. You can you can go on YouTube and

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Speaker 1: see priests, exorcist priests who will talk about it and

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Speaker 1: tell you about their experiences which shocked me. When I

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Speaker 1: was doing resource, I'm like, wait what YouTube? Oh okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll go listen. You know, I'm fascinating. I almost had

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Speaker 1: a chance to interview one of the priests and the

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Speaker 1: actual exorcism, but he died. I never was able to

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Speaker 1: get to him. Oh that would have been so would

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Speaker 1: have been the classic interview. Yeah, oh my gosh. I

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Speaker 1: mean they went through a lot, didn't they They did,

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Speaker 1: they did, and um, you know, I was studying the

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Speaker 1: priest's reactions and their fears, and it's so funny. They're

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Speaker 1: very different. Some of them are like, no, it's just

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Speaker 1: another day at the office, right, And others of them

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Speaker 1: are saying, well, no, really, we do come under attack

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Speaker 1: a lot of times. It's psychological where we'll feel depressed

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Speaker 1: and oppressed, you know, and they have, you know, demons

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Speaker 1: text them that just blew me away that they're in

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Speaker 1: the high technology she know no, they said, you know,

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Speaker 1: we'll be on our way to an exorcism session. We'll

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Speaker 1: get a text that says she's now you know, And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, so creepy. I would not want to

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Speaker 1: be texted that way at all. So talk about possessions

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Speaker 1: accidents like car trouble, tires fall off near missus when

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Speaker 1: they're in route. So I don't know. I think it's

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Speaker 1: pretty tricky, a little scary. I mean, some of it

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Speaker 1: you'd have to chalk up to real bad luck and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. But some of the other stuff, who knows, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it just seems like if it happens a little too

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Speaker 1: often and it's always connected to that, I would be

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Speaker 1: getting suspicious. Isn't there an exorcism hotline set up in

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Speaker 1: Italy Land? Yes, they set it up in Milan in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve and it has had so many

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Speaker 1: callers it just keeps going down, you know, and U

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Speaker 1: and in Italy there every year they'll probably be half

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Speaker 1: of a million exorcisms. Yeah, it's very that many possessed people. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if it's there's an exorcism, they only do it when

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Speaker 1: people are actually possessed, deeply possessed. That's true. That's a

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Speaker 1: lot of people. I ask a lot of people. When

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Speaker 1: you consider the rate of possession is about five percent,

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Speaker 1: you know, is why is everybody so tormented? And you know,

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Speaker 1: I thought, well, is it just escalating? But what my

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Speaker 1: studies have told me and what I've been reading from

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Speaker 1: the sociologist that I've studied it. They've said it has

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Speaker 1: always been like this in every culture, and so nowadays

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Speaker 1: people they're maybe not involved in an organized religion, and

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Speaker 1: so they're just asking for help anywhere they can get it.

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Speaker 1: And so it's becoming more mainstream because people aren't going

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Speaker 1: to suffer in silence. They're going to say, hey, listen,

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Speaker 1: I need somebody to help. Need something really weird is

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Speaker 1: going on? In your opinion, when why are people being

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Speaker 1: possessed in the first place? Why are they being dissessed?

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Speaker 1: That's such a good thing to think about. UM. I

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Speaker 1: think that the darkness is out there, UM, and there

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Speaker 1: are unexplained supernatural things around us. And I think UM,

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Speaker 1: as we become very spiritual, we get very intrigued by

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Speaker 1: it and UM so you know you wouldn't want to

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Speaker 1: invite it in UM. But UM, I just think it's

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Speaker 1: always been out there. I think that people are always

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Speaker 1: vulnerable to things like that. But I will tell you this,

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Speaker 1: as as one priest told me, you always have autonomy

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Speaker 1: over your soul. Can the person being possessed be killed

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Speaker 1: by the demon that's within? No, the demon that is

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Speaker 1: within can drive them to suicide, okay, and that is

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Speaker 1: often their goal or murder, yeah, exactly, doing dark and

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Speaker 1: terrible things. Okay, yeah, I can drive them to that,

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Speaker 1: but it is never They just don't have, from what

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Speaker 1: I've read, that kind of power over you. Okay, they

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Speaker 1: can torment you, but it's up to you where it goes.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just yesterday in Sacramento, there was a horrible

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Speaker 1: story of a guy who killed his three kids, killed himself,

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Speaker 1: killed his wife in the process, probably before he shot

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Speaker 1: the three kids in a church. How do we know

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Speaker 1: that person wasn't possessed? You know, it does give you

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Speaker 1: an explanation for all the very dark evil that comes.

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Speaker 1: And I you know, I couldn't tell you if he

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Speaker 1: was possessed. But it does make you wonder, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: One of the therapists I talked to I had asked him,

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Speaker 1: I said, well, do you think any of your patients

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Speaker 1: were possessed? And he said, you know, they didn't say

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Speaker 1: they were or think they were, But when I look

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Speaker 1: back on it, there was so much darkness around them

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Speaker 1: that it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they were.

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Speaker 1: What do you think these demons are really? After? What

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Speaker 1: they're after. Yeah, I mean, do they gain some kind

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Speaker 1: of psychic strength by being in somebody possessing them? What

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Speaker 1: do they what do they want? I don't think they

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Speaker 1: gained strength. I think that that kind of presence is

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Speaker 1: chaotic and miserable, and they want to spread that around

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Speaker 1: and they want the people they torment to be miserable

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Speaker 1: and tormented and harassed and oppressed and depressed. And it's

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Speaker 1: almost like they're psychopaths almost but not quite worse worse worse. Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're just very incredibly dark and very chaotic and they

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Speaker 1: just bring misery. Was there an episode for you that

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Speaker 1: made you realize that this is the real deal? This

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Speaker 1: was what the real deal, that something happened. No, just

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Speaker 1: what I studied and just talking to pre send people. Now,

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Speaker 1: I would say that, you know, the hauntings that might

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Speaker 1: be manifestations did make me wonder if something really bad

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Speaker 1: was there. And there are places where it's so dark

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Speaker 1: that I'm like, I don't care what anybody believes. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going here. There's something really dark here and I

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Speaker 1: don't want to be close to it. Is science studying

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Speaker 1: this situation at all? Then, well, sociologists are studying it

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Speaker 1: and they have a you know, a classic example of

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Speaker 1: the kind of person who will wind up to be

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Speaker 1: full unpossessed and so um. I was kind of shocked

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Speaker 1: at the model of the average possessed individual because it's

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Speaker 1: a male between the ages of forty and fifty and

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Speaker 1: he's very highly educated and very successful in his business

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Speaker 1: and in the world, usually wealthy and huh and that

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Speaker 1: that really surprised me. What happened to Linda Blair? I

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Speaker 1: don't know, you know, they turned it into a girl,

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Speaker 1: but it was Rolando was a boy, you know. So

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Speaker 1: that is your that is your average possession victim. What

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Speaker 1: do you think happened to that little kid? I mean,

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Speaker 1: how would a little boy get possessed by a demon? Well?

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Speaker 1: You know, um what they say they play with Theiji

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Speaker 1: board or something like that. Yeah, and I think that

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Speaker 1: what happens is, you know, if you use a Luigi board.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I would think the issue is

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Speaker 1: if you say to the world, Hey, anybody anything out there,

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Speaker 1: come talk to me. Well, I mean that's pretty scary

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Speaker 1: invitation because you don't know what's going to wander in

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Speaker 1: and talk to you. So it's not necessarily the board itself.

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Speaker 1: It's how you use it and how you might open

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Speaker 1: yourself up, maybe as a joke, maybe as a game,

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Speaker 1: maybe as you just think you know, what would come

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Speaker 1: would be something wonderful and lovely, and it's not. You

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Speaker 1: think somebody could be tricked. Yeah, definitely, absolutely, that's often

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Speaker 1: what they do, you know, And but you'll know pretty

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Speaker 1: quickly because it'll be dark and it'll be torment thing

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Speaker 1: and it will be mean, so you'll know that it's

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Speaker 1: nothing good. What percent lynn do you think these cases

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Speaker 1: are really psychiatric? Oh? Probably. I don't know what the

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Speaker 1: percentage is, but if only five percent or five percent

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Speaker 1: are full and possessed, I would say there is plenty

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Speaker 1: of people who have mental conditions, you know, depression and

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Speaker 1: schizophrenia and disassociation. So I'd say there's a pretty high

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Speaker 1: percentage of that, and they don't know where to go

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Speaker 1: and they don't know what to do, and if they

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Speaker 1: wind up with an exorcism team, they will they will

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Speaker 1: see that they get help. You know. I had a

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Speaker 1: guest on years ago who talked about what makes a

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Speaker 1: person get possessed, and he said, if they're inebriated in

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Speaker 1: that situation, they're more apt to get possessed in that

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Speaker 1: state of mind. That's interesting because you're vulnerable. I guess

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Speaker 1: you don't have your defenses up and you're kind of

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Speaker 1: wide open, so that's possible and they just take you.

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Speaker 1: But I wonder what they want. You want your soul? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they they want you to be miserable and unhappy and

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Speaker 1: um just drive you insane. Listen to more Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast Am every weeknight at one a m. Eastern and

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Speaker 1: go to Coast to Coast am dot com for more