1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stupidity, home of the greatest media mind ever 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: to walk the planet. 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 2: I tell you what, man, He's a literal titan across 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 2: the entire media landscape. 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: Okay, sure, here's a deal. 6 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 2: He's a true icon in every sense of the word. 7 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: He's loved and feared more than any being. 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: To Grace's planet, there. 9 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: Got a bed with a voice that sounds like Verry White, 10 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: and be got to say, Hey, let's do it, baby. 11 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: God himself would pay thirty nine ninety nine for a cameo. 12 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: Fact of the matter is you are about to embark 13 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: on a transcendent experience that can only be described as 14 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: psychological nudity. This is Stu Box and this is Stupidity. 15 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 3: Here we go, Jim Hody, Welcome. 16 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 2: Into another episode of Stupidity, the biggest podcast in the world. 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: Thanks to you at DraftKings. Please subscribe and review unsubscribed, resubscribe, rate, 18 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 2: re review. You have made us the biggest podcast in 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: the world. We are going to have Jake Fisher on. 20 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 2: He is an author, an NBA writer, an NBA journalist. 21 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 2: But he's an author of a book about tanking in 22 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 2: the NBA and appropriate to bring him on now with 23 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 2: the Philadelphia seventy six ers trust the process. That looks 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 2: like the process is complete as they are the one 25 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: seed here in the East. So we'll talk to Jake 26 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: about that. But before we get to Jake, mikey eh, 27 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: a quick game of athletes that cannote losing, that cannote 28 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 2: tanking about that? What do you think? Huh, JP, Lossman, 29 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 2: you lose? Let's bring on Jake Fisher all right. Jake 30 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: Fisher is with us. He's a basketball journalist. He has 31 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: written for Sports Illustrated, Slam Magazine, Bleacher Report, The Boston Globe, 32 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: and more. He has written his first book, Built to Lose. 33 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: How the NBA's tanking ever changed the league forever? It 34 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: really did? Jake, why'd you decide to write this book? 35 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 3: The short answer, I mean, I grew up in Philly 36 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 3: covering the Sixers for Liberty Ballers at Espanation, and then 37 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 3: I was in school in Boston kind of moonlighting at 38 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 3: night through Slam Agazine. Lake, you mentioned as an NBA reporter, 39 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 3: when you know, people forget the Celtics traded Kji and 40 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 3: Paul Pierce to Brooklyn the same night that Hanky started 41 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 3: the process trading jew Holiday to New Orleans that twenty 42 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 3: thirteen draft, and I just felt like I was in 43 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 3: the eye of the hurricane. It was all these analytical 44 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 3: minded executives like Sam Hanky, like Rob Hennegan and Orlando 45 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 3: to Ry McDonough and Phoenix to name a few. They 46 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 3: were all trying to tank for this twenty fourteen class 47 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 3: featuring Joel Embiid, Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker. Your boy, Julius 48 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 3: Randall was the seventh best guy in that draft. And 49 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 3: you know, the process and the strategy has clearly worked 50 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 3: for a lot of those teams. 51 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 2: Although I will tell you this, Jake and Mike yet 52 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: you should know this as well. I was on First 53 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 2: Take way back when, right before the twenty to fourteen draft, 54 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: and they asked me. I was with Sadano. They asked me, 55 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: who do you think the best player out of the 56 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: twenty to fourteen draft will be? And I said, at 57 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: the time, Julius Randall, how about some credit, guys, I mean, 58 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: please listen. 59 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 3: He was definitely I mean he led that team to 60 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 3: the Final four that year, right, I mean, he was 61 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 3: a bowl in the paint. I remember the final four 62 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: was in Dallas. He was a Texas native, like he 63 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 3: was that was considered a seven player draft, and he 64 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 3: was definitely in that top tier. 65 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: So was Sam Hanky. This is this is interesting to me, Jake. 66 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 2: Was Sam Hanky ahead of his time or was he 67 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: just the first one to kind of voice it publicly 68 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: what it is that he was doing. 69 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 3: I think I think it was the latter. I mean, 70 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 3: all those teams for copying OKC. Right, they drafted KD, 71 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 3: Russ and Harden three straight years from two thousand and 72 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 3: seven to two thousand and nine, and then they jumped 73 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 3: right to the finals in twenty twelve. But coincidentally they 74 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 3: ran into that Miami Heat juggernaut, which was made up 75 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 3: of three guys in the top five from the three class, 76 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 3: and that fourteen class was coincidentally considered to be the 77 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: best class in two thousand and three. So the timing 78 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 3: just matched up where all these teams thought, instead of 79 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 3: competing at Miami, well, punt, we'll get the next generation 80 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: of those guys, and by the time our guys are 81 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 3: that type of All Star Calar player, the Miami Heat 82 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 3: won't be what they were. And obviously the Heat are 83 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 3: still around, but with a different iteration of guys and 84 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 3: Lebron is still kicking, but he's in LA and we 85 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 3: do see Philly and you know Julius Raynolds an MVP candidates. 86 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 3: So I think Sam definitely was just more brazen about 87 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 3: than anybody, and he wasn't willing to make any negotiations 88 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 3: off of his strategy. 89 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: Does it bother you at all that for the most part, 90 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: really not. For the most part, it's just the way 91 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 2: it is in the NBA. You have to be really 92 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: really bad in order to have a chance of getting 93 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: really really good. 94 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 3: It doesn't bother me. I do think it's a conundrum 95 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: at the league faces where you know, as great as 96 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 3: it is that the league now is an eleventh month 97 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 3: news cycle, and fans on NBA Twitter care just as 98 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 3: much as you know off season forecasting and all that 99 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 3: type of stuff and photoshopping players into new jerseys. Now 100 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 3: we are seeing an issue where ratings are down in 101 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 3: the regular season. I covered the league personally, and I 102 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 3: struggle on you know, on April night, to watch a 103 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 3: random game on Wednesday. There's all this programming on TV 104 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 3: nowadays right or on your streaming services. So I think 105 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 3: it's an issue, But smarter people than myself are going 106 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 3: to have to come up with that answer. 107 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: Do NBA front office members in your experience as you're 108 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: putting this book together, do they acknowledge that tanking indeed 109 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: does go on all over the place. 110 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I talked over three hundred players, coaches, executives, agents, 111 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 3: you name it for this book and across the board. 112 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 3: I mean, people aren't necessarily willing to say I'm tanking 113 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 3: on the record, but they're willing to point the finger 114 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 3: at other people. And I mean I was on the 115 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 3: phone yesterday for my weekly column that I reported out 116 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 3: for Bleacher Report, and many executives I talked to you 117 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 3: just this week, we're complaining about what OKC is doing 118 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 3: right now, sending out Horford home for half the year, 119 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: benching Shay Gilgess Alexander for twenty plus games for a 120 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 3: sprained ankle. I mean, Houston just has John Wall sitting 121 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 3: healthy on the bench while Kevin Porter Junior takes a spot. 122 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 3: Those teams are doing something far more you know, brazen 123 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 3: and ball than Sam Hinkey ever did, and they're not 124 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 3: getting any you know, repercussions from the league. And some 125 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,799 Speaker 3: executives I talk to want that to happen. They want, Okay, 126 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 3: see to kind of be punished for what they're doing 127 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 3: with Al Horford and all that type of stuff. 128 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 2: Do you think the reason they're not getting any sort 129 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 2: of blowback do you think it's just becoming more common 130 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: and just because I think any NBA executive would do 131 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 2: the same thing like that. Listen, the league legislate legislates 132 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 2: excuse me, be bad and you'll be good. I mean 133 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: that's and so until they fix that, this is the 134 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 2: way it's gonna be. And you can't blame people for 135 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: doing it. 136 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 3: You know, ironically, the draft is a very socialist type 137 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 3: of experiment right where it's it's designed to have parody 138 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 3: and design for everybody to be Even in this league, 139 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 3: I think OKAC and Houston aren't really getting as much 140 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 3: attention being that they're not Philadelphia, you know, a number 141 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 3: four media market in the city where you know, they 142 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 3: were you know, the third greatest franchise in terms of 143 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 3: wins and history stuff like that, where they were getting 144 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 3: headlines every year. I mean that fifteenth sixteen six Ers 145 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 3: team that was marching potentially to have the worst record 146 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 3: of all time. They were stealing Sports center headlines from 147 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: the Golden State Warriors, who were the very best team, ever, 148 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 3: and that was definitely an issue for the league. Owners 149 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 3: were complaining about, you know, fans not coming to their arenas, 150 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 3: and obviously that isn't an issue this year with the pandemic, 151 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 3: So maybe the lack of fans in the arenas are 152 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 3: also playing a factor in the league not really having 153 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 3: such an outcry about what's going on at this present moment. 154 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: Are we seeing Sam Hanky's finished product here? And if 155 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: we are, then it worked and tanking works because they're 156 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: sitting forty seven to twenty three a game up in 157 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,559 Speaker 2: the East over the nets have Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irvic, 158 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: and James Arden. Clearly it worked. Are we seeing the 159 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: finished Sam Hanky product right now? 160 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 3: I think so. I mean, obviously his old partner from Houston, 161 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 3: Darryl Moory, is the one who's retooled this roster, and 162 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 3: they brought in Doc Rivers, and that's kind of pushed 163 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 3: everything to the next degree. But I mean Sam's plan 164 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: was always to get multiple All stars and to see 165 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 3: how they could push you into the perennial title contention. 166 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 3: Like it was never an idea of let's just let's 167 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 3: just compete for one. They wanted to compete for multiple championships, 168 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: and people can point fingers and poke holes in his 169 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 3: strategy and say, oh, Michael Carter Williams failed their owns, 170 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 3: Noel failed, Jalil Oklapher failed, But that I think was 171 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 3: Hanky's strategy. I think he wanted as many darts to 172 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 3: throw out the dark part as possible, because any executive 173 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 3: will admit to you that the draft is an inexact 174 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 3: science and things happen like injuries or someone trades up 175 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 3: one spot ahead of you and takes her guy. I 176 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 3: mean Joel Embiid. Joel Embiid would have gone number one 177 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 3: to Cleveland in twenty fourteen if he didn't break his 178 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 3: foot in his workout with Cleveland. Cavs officials to this 179 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 3: day maintained that Embiid was having this incredible, like best 180 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 3: workout they'd ever seen in the history of all these 181 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 3: executives careers, and then he broke that foot and Milwaukee 182 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: wouldn't take him number two. They wanted to take to 183 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 3: Barry Parker, and I'm gonna have Bucks owner Mark Lazry 184 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 3: on the record in the book saying that they wanted 185 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 3: to make the playoffs and they couldn't take embiid, so 186 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 3: he kind of just fell to Hinky at three. But 187 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 3: that was the genius of the strategy. You get two guys, 188 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 3: other players will want to come play with them. I mean, 189 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 3: Phoenix is the same thing Devin Booker and DeAndre eight 190 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 3: and draw Chris Paul's attention. Obviously, Boston's falling down the standings, 191 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 3: but they had Tatum and Brown and then they drew 192 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 3: Al Horford and Gordon Hayward, and they were in the 193 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 3: conference finals a bunch of years before. They've stumbled off 194 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 3: of late. So I think the strategy clearly has its dividends. 195 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: Jake Fisher whether us here, Rod Stupotity basketball journalists written 196 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: for Sports Illustrated, Slam Magazine, Bleacher Report, the Boston Globe. 197 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: Bit more, his first book is out Built to Lose. 198 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: How the NBA's tanking ever, change of league Forever. Here's 199 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 2: what's interesting about the Sixers. Could you imagine the one 200 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 2: draft they screwed Well, they screwed up a couple, but 201 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: the one real, uh, the one draft they really screwed 202 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: up was taking Markel Fults. If they had taken Jason Tatum, 203 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: could you imagine that team right now? 204 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 3: Jake, Yeah, I mean that that's why I think the 205 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 3: draft is so fascinating too, and it's a real central 206 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 3: theme of the book. Like these decisions are decisions that 207 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 3: cost two billion dollar franchises, you know, ultimate success or 208 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 3: ultimate Glorie sometimes and when when information gets passed down 209 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 3: that you know this team wants this guy, and other 210 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 3: teams have their number, you know, they can do things 211 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 3: like Boston, you know, kind of raking Philly over the 212 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 3: coals and getting an extra first round pick and taking 213 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 3: their guy at three. They would have taken a one anyway. 214 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,239 Speaker 3: So I think that that clash of all these concepts 215 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 3: and ideas and and you know, agents trying to steer 216 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 3: their guide to their preferred destination and teams trying to 217 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 3: draft a certain player for a certain fit, all the 218 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 3: competing agendas all at once. When the clock is ticking 219 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 3: down and Adam Silver's on the stage in Brooklyn, Like 220 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 3: those nights are pretty impactful. 221 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 2: In the book, you you detail your time, You spent 222 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 2: plenty of time in war rooms back in twenty thirteen, 223 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, twenty and fifteen. What'd you learn in those 224 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 2: war rooms? Who's whose war rooms were you in? And 225 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 2: what you learn while you were in them, so I didn't. 226 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 3: I didn't personally go into the war rooms, but from 227 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 3: talking to. 228 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 2: People, I've always wanted to go into a war rooms. 229 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: I really it's like a dream for me, you know, 230 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 2: allow me. I know they won't, it seems like having 231 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 2: though to me, Mike, it really does. 232 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 3: There's so much proprietary information going on there. 233 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 2: That's why I want to be there. Yeah, I know, 234 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: I meant it all. 235 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 3: I've talked to a lot of teams that kind of 236 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 3: give you a picture of it. I mean, I know 237 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 3: Boston they set up a thing in the Celtics home 238 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 3: locker room and they're kind of you know, around the 239 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 3: jerseys and the history and they're, you know, ready to 240 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 3: bring in the next guy. Philly's really interesting in that 241 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 3: Sam Hanky at their old facility at the Philadelphia of 242 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 3: Osteopathic Medicine, he had like his own office with a 243 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 3: conference room that kind of had an adjoining door like 244 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 3: hotel rooms, and he'd have his nucleus of guys in 245 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 3: his big room, and then he'd call a scout every 246 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 3: now and then to come in, kind of like the 247 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 3: dawn of a mafia family, summoning someone to the back 248 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 3: room and he'd say, you know, you know, we're considering 249 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 3: taking this guy to Levin, like I know you have 250 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 3: a connection to his college coach or something like give 251 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 3: us that last piece of intel you want. And you 252 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 3: know everyone knows the Joe Dumars meme where he's holding 253 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 3: up two phones like someone told me that twenty thirteen 254 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 3: Draft Hanky was doing that. He had a mobile and 255 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: a landline to one ear. He had his his sleeves 256 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 3: rolled up as ty Lwson. He was on the phone bartering, negotiating. 257 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 3: So that's like one type of scene I can paint 258 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 3: for you. 259 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: Uh, Jake, I know you're a journalist, but but are 260 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: you a Knicks fan? Are you a fan of a 261 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: particular team? 262 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 3: I grew up a Philly fan, but my brother gives 263 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 3: me flackmuss all the time. I think being a reporter, 264 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 3: the objectivity just kind of washes over you. 265 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: Okay, good, yeah, yeah, because it washes I only asked 266 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: him that because I was wondering if he marveled like 267 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 2: we all did. Mike at the fact that even when 268 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 2: the Knicks tried the tank, they couldn't do that right. 269 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 2: Not only did they not get Zion Williamton they didn't 270 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 2: get Jaba Ramp. Were you laughing like the rest of 271 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 2: the country, Jake. 272 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 3: Well, a little bit. I mean, I do want every 273 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 3: team to be successful, but I mean it is kind 274 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 3: of funny. And also, I mean the Knicks pick to 275 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 3: tank the very first year that the lottery form that 276 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 3: was a result of all the years we're talking about 277 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 3: came into effect. So previously they would have had a 278 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 3: twenty five percent chance of getting him. They picked the 279 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 3: first year that the worst team would gonna be be 280 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 3: grouped in with the bottom three teams where they all 281 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 3: get a fourteen percent chance, and it was it was 282 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 3: a two player draft and they fell to three. It's 283 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 3: just and you know, the lottery is so intertwined in 284 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 3: the NBA's history with all these conspiracy theories dating back 285 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 3: to the first the very first year in nineteen eighty five, 286 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 3: the frozen novelop People forget that was the very first 287 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 3: iteration of the lottery. Before that, it was the coin 288 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 3: flip between the worst two teams, or the worst team 289 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 3: in the West and the worst team in the East. 290 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 3: And David Stern wanted to prevent that from happening because 291 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 3: Houston tanked to get a Keem olajuwon that year. So 292 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 3: flash forward thirty five years later and the very first 293 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 3: year that Adam Silver puts in his lottery reform, the 294 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 3: Knicks get burned by it. I thought that irony was hilarious. 295 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, fuddy, yeah. 296 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 4: Real run yeah, track this guy laugh a minute. 297 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: I mean serious, God, I hate them so much monkey God, 298 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: Oh my god. So Jack, I'm wondering, like, does the 299 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 2: NBA do you think the NBA needs to address this? 300 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 2: Do they have any plans to address this in terms 301 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 2: of tanking because I know so many gms don't like 302 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 2: it even though they do it, because why would sho 303 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: you do it? And I know they put the play 304 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 2: in games and that's helping out as teams at are 305 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: playing their starters deeper into the season. So does the 306 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 2: NBA plan on trying to address this or just gonna 307 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 2: leave it as is? 308 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 3: I think they'll leave it as is. Executives I've talked 309 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 3: to have always kind of said when the league makes 310 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 3: a big swing and a big change like the Lottier form, 311 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 3: like the play in tournament, they like to kind of 312 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 3: puff their chest out and raise their fists and say, 313 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 3: you know, we fixed it, everything solved, and they don't 314 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 3: want to go back on their word and kind of 315 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 3: change things around for a little while. I think the 316 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 3: only way to really get rid of it is to 317 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 3: strip your draft position for having any dependency on your record. 318 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 3: That that would be something like the wheel scenario that 319 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 3: Mike's Aaron in Boston has proposed, where you know, teams 320 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 3: would be being five or six buckets, and then you'd 321 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 3: still have a lottery, but you'd have a drawing of 322 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 3: those five teams one through five, and then that group. 323 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 3: The next year they'd be drawing twenty six through thirty, 324 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 3: and the next year they'd be six through ten, and 325 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 3: everyone would kind of rotate around like that. But I think, 326 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 3: you know, for a team like Houston, where they did 327 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 3: everything they can to get James Harden and build around him, 328 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 3: and all of a sudden he says, screw it, I 329 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 3: want to go to Brooklyn, like one of the Rockets, 330 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 3: other opportunities like right now, I think the draft, being 331 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 3: as it's constructed, is the only way for these teams 332 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 3: that get mired with a superstar wanting out or a 333 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 3: small market like Okay, see, it's really the most direct 334 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 3: path for somebody like that to bounce back towards contention. 335 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: Check out his new book, Jake Fisher's new book, Built 336 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: to Lose How the NBA's tanking ever changed the League Forever. 337 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 2: Really fascinating stuff. Could you take us inside. One of 338 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: the things you detailed in the book was how Kobe's 339 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 2: final contract, which probably well it depends on your vantage point, 340 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: was probably necessary at least from my pantage point, but 341 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: how it got in the way of the Lakers signing 342 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: Lebron James, Well, I. 343 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 3: Can tell you there are people that maybe are still 344 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 3: with the Lakers organization today but that we're definitely with 345 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 3: it back then, who believe it was unnecessary and believed 346 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 3: that he would have taken a deal half that salary. 347 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 3: He took a two year, forty eight and a half 348 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,239 Speaker 3: million dollar deal, which kept him having the most expensive 349 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 3: contract in the league as a thirty six year old 350 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: who was coming off an Achilles tear. But the Lakers 351 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 3: they had a goal, They had a plan in mind 352 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 3: to sign both Lebron and Carmelo, but doing the Kobe 353 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 3: extension in that fall prevented them from having two Max 354 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 3: cap slots, and unfortunately for the Lakers, Lebron was only 355 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 3: coming to any team on a max salary deal. He 356 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 3: after years in Miami, he didn't want to take a 357 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 3: discount anymore, and the Lakers giving Kobe that money ahead 358 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: of time it prevented that it from ever happening, and 359 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 3: ultimately it sparked a spiral where you know, they have 360 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 3: old Kobe tearing his achilles and hurting his knee and 361 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 3: hurting his shoulder, and Steve Nash hurts his back carrying bags, 362 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 3: and they signed a bunch of one year guys and 363 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 3: ultimately they end up having the worst record over five 364 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 3: years in this entire tanking era. I mean, were they 365 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 3: had a worse record that entire five year stretch than 366 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 3: San Thankee's Sixers did, which just goes to show how 367 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 3: poorly managed they were. But the Lakers are included in 368 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 3: the book because it doesn't matter. They still signed Lebron 369 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 3: twenty eighteen anyway, Right, That's that's kind of why these 370 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 3: other teams have to tank. They're not the Lakers where 371 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 3: you know, Travis Travis Schlank the Hawks, GM told me 372 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 3: that the Lakers were the worst poorly managed team in 373 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 3: the NBA for five years and they still fell ass 374 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 3: backwards within Lebron so That's exactly why I think small 375 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 3: market teams and other teams who are in LA they 376 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 3: kind of have no other choice but to do that. 377 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: My dog Finny's a big Laker fan, so that's why 378 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: he's perked up here. I am. So are you telling me, 379 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: Jake that Kobe? You think Kobe would have taken half? 380 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 2: And it could have been Kobe, Lebron and Carmelo. 381 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 3: That's what a lot of Lakers people still believe. Yeah, 382 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 3: Carmelo was on board. They met with Carmelo first. He 383 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: had a meeting with Lakers brass and they had somebody 384 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,719 Speaker 3: from Time Warner Kable, I believe, the big TV partner 385 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 3: with his wife Lala, was in there and they were 386 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 3: talking about all his Hollywood opportunities, and he said, you know, 387 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 3: I'm down to take a little bit less money if 388 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 3: Lebron's gonna come. But Lebron he had Lebron didn't even 389 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 3: meet with people. He had Mark Tremini and Rich Paul 390 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 3: and Akron meeting with all these teams, and they said, 391 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 3: he's only taking the max. Go get a max salary 392 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 3: slot for him to come to your team. And the 393 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 3: Lakers couldn't do that with Carmelo and Lebron wasn't going 394 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 3: to that terrible Lakers team by himself. So the Lakers 395 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 3: did kind of shoot themselves in the foot. If you 396 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 3: believe these people who I talked. 397 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 2: To, that is that is pretty amazing, all right, Yeah, right, Mike, 398 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 2: can you imagine that though? Kobe Carmelo like if I'm well, 399 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 2: I mean, geez, geez, like Kobe being willing, Kobe willing 400 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: to take half is the most shocking thing I've heard 401 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 2: of his interview. I mean anything, What is the most 402 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 2: shocking thing you learned putting this book together, Jake? 403 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I like the Lake are in there as an 404 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 3: example of the team that doesn't have to tank, right. 405 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 3: The Kings are in there as a cautionary tale of 406 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 3: what happens when you don't tank and you're not a 407 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 3: big market and you're stuck in that trouble of mediocrity forever, 408 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 3: where the owner is having all this palace intrigue, picking 409 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 3: different coaches, picking different executives. There's this crazy detail at 410 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 3: Summer League in twenty fourteen where the King's coaching staff 411 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 3: under Mike Malone. At the time, they're already hearing that 412 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 3: they're on the hot seat. They're already hearing George Carl 413 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 3: is the name that's going to be his replacement if 414 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 3: and when he does get fired. And they're in Las 415 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 3: Vegas at La Pescheria, some restaurant on the strip. And 416 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 3: I mean, anyone who's been to Vegas knows there's thousands 417 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,239 Speaker 3: of restaurants on the strip, right. But sure enough, as 418 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 3: they're hearing they're on the hot seat. As they're hearing 419 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 3: George Carl is the name, they're walking out of the restaurant, 420 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 3: and who walks in but King's owner of vivek Roundadive, 421 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: his advisor at the time, Chris Mullen and George Carl 422 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 3: walking into the same exact restaurant. And that's just one 423 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 3: story of like literally a dozen crazy anecdotes I have 424 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 3: about the King's frontal office just kind of stepping on 425 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 3: each other's choes and stabbing each other in the back. 426 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 3: It's pretty nuts. 427 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 4: This is awkward, Mike, Mike, what was that sad you 428 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 4: made there? That was This is awkward? 429 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: Wait? Wait, so what Jake is saying is the return 430 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 2: Had Kobe figured this out? How the Lakers figured this out? 431 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 2: Lebron Dos will go about to. 432 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 3: Cleveland probably probably Holy shit, I mean, there's a reason 433 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 3: to stay. 434 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: To listen, Jake, we all know he should have stayed 435 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 2: in Miami. He got up on that stage before he 436 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 2: even bounced the basketball, and he promised this eight or 437 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 2: nine seasons. He left after four. It was a complete 438 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: failure exact anyway, Yeah, thank. 439 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 3: You, you agreet. Listen. When twenty eighteen came around, there 440 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 3: was a reason why it was not considered a surprise 441 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 3: he was going to Los Angeles, right It was because 442 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 3: he definitely had an eye for it starting in twenty fourteen. 443 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 2: Absolutely, wow, Wow, that's going to piss some people in 444 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: Cleveland off, I think, don't you. 445 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, listen, it was a nice kumbah ya. 446 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 3: Dan Gilbert flew his private jet down to Miami and 447 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 3: apologized for thatm sans letter. And they trade Andrew Wiggins 448 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 3: for Kevin Love and they do that whole you know, 449 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 3: super team building thing. They get one title on Lebron, 450 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 3: you know, lives in Cleveland history forever. But he was 451 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 3: definitely considering going to Los Angeles, and I don't think 452 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 3: he would deny it if if you inject the truth 453 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 3: serim into him right now. 454 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 2: Does that team win a championship at fourteen if he 455 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 2: goes to the Lakers Carmela. Yeah, they win a championship. 456 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, they would have still had Paul Gasol. Who knows 457 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 3: what Steve Nash would have Maybe Steve Nash would have 458 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 3: been able to chip in some times, So yeah, it 459 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 3: would have been It would have been really interesting to see. 460 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 2: All right, Jake Fisher with us built to lose, How 461 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 2: the NBA is taking ever change the league forever available 462 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 2: wherever books are sold. All right, we're gonna play a 463 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: quick game with you. You've been great, and we'll get 464 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 2: you out of here. It's called Fisher or fishy. Okay, okay, 465 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 2: all right, Knick's winning a playoff ram will mean more 466 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: to New York City than that's winning a title. Fisher 467 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 2: or Fish. 468 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 3: For the fans Fisher, Yeah, I mean Knicks fans are 469 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 3: going nuts that the fact that they are even competing 470 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 3: for having home court advantage in the first round, right, 471 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 3: I think listen. I was trying to pitch a second 472 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 3: book about the Nets, and a lot of publishers have 473 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 3: been telling us that no one cares about the Nets. 474 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 3: So that's uh, that's that's a little that's a little 475 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 3: personal moan. I can tell you about about the publishers. 476 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 2: Smart publishers, Mike, get all those publishers on the podcast. 477 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 2: Thank you? Uh seeing someone drop money, picking up the 478 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 2: money and putting in your own pocket fisher or fishy fishy? 479 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: I mean if if there's still if they're still in 480 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 3: your grasp, hey you you dropped this right, right? 481 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: But what if. 482 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 3: And if they have headphones and you're calling after them 483 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 3: and they don't hear you. I just take it. 484 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 2: It's fine, okay, Yeah, but no, Mike, that's a great 485 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 2: follow up. How like, how high do I need to go? 486 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: What if a hundred falls out? 487 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 3: Everything is relative in life, right? 488 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: Yes, I can catch up on a hot dog fisher or. 489 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 3: Fishy fisher for sure. I'm a catchup guy. 490 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 2: Really wow, May I want a burger fisher or fish eat? 491 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 3: It depends if it's like an aoli I'm. 492 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 2: In a getting the wrong change and keeping the extra 493 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 2: change fisher or fish eat? 494 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 3: I think again, context is really how much are we 495 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 3: talking about here? It is it like ninety cents? 496 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 2: Is it? You know? 497 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 3: Nine dollars? Sometimes maybe you know you're having a bad 498 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 3: day and you're you're just getting a little a little 499 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 3: lucky break, you. 500 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 2: Know, right, So if it's ninety cents, are you giving 501 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 2: it back? 502 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 3: Probably not. That's too much math to then figure out 503 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 3: in your hand. You know, you're counting the quarters and 504 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 3: the how. 505 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 2: About nine dollars? There's no way then, right. Obviously, hooking 506 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 2: up with your friends X fisher or fish eat that's 507 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 2: a tough one. 508 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 3: I'm gonna say Fisher. I mean, I've had a lot 509 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 3: of friends who just don't just don't care at a 510 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 3: certain point. And at the end of the day, what 511 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 3: happened in the past happened in the past. We're all adults. 512 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 3: We can all make our own decisions. If things are consensual. 513 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 3: You know what's what's not the love? 514 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 2: Keeping a friend you don't like, Lord knows, I had 515 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: many of these. Keeping a friend you don't like to 516 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 2: use their vacation home fisher or fishy. 517 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 3: Fish sure, because listen, if you're keeping them, they're keeping 518 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 3: you for a reason too, right. 519 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 2: Picking food off someone's plate while they're away from their plate. 520 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,959 Speaker 2: Fisher or fishy. I did that to day at all 521 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: the time, for sure. 522 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 3: For sure. One time I was at a bar in 523 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 3: downtown Manhattan, fish Market. It's a great little spot. They 524 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 3: did this awesome fried Rice and I watched this girl, 525 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 3: I didn't even know. Take two bites of it, get 526 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 3: a phone call, tell the bartender I gotta leave, And 527 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 3: took two bites and I knew. The bartender said, hey, 528 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 3: you want this? I didn't think twice. 529 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 2: I love it. Had a couple of basketball ones. We'll 530 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 2: get you out of here. Chris Pall being a top 531 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: five point guard of all time, Fisher or Fishy for sure? 532 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 3: For sure? I mean I think you might end up 533 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 3: going down as the all time leader and assists what 534 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 3: he's doing in Phoenix right now. He didn't know o 535 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 3: case last year. I mean, he's the point god for 536 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 3: a reason. 537 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 2: Should I I mean, shouldn't a top five point guard 538 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: of all time make an NBA final like Magic? You know, 539 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 2: like Isaiah Toma is like the all time greats? 540 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 3: You know, I agree. I mean they were a hamstring 541 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 3: injury way, which ha ha ha. You can make fun 542 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 3: of the Rockets for saying that, but they were, and 543 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 3: they ran against that. I mean the Golden State Warriors 544 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 3: that they ran into a year after year, the Clippers teams, 545 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 3: you know, that whole collapse with Blake and DeAndre, with 546 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 3: the Rockets and Doc I don't know. I think, you know, 547 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 3: there's a lot of players throughout history who never made 548 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 3: it there for various circumstances. And I don't really hold 549 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 3: the Rings culture against a lot of people like some 550 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 3: people do. 551 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: The Knicks will win a championship this decade. Fisher, fishy. 552 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 3: I'm really curious how they do it this offseason. I'm 553 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 3: gonna say fishy though, I mean they haven't. They haven't 554 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 3: done it in you know how long, So at a certain point, 555 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 3: I think history kind of precedes itself. And I mean 556 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 3: I wouldn't bet my life on it, that's for sure. 557 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 2: Good Yeah, since before I was born? Is the answer 558 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 2: to that? Kevin Durant being a top five player of 559 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 2: all times. Sure, fish. 560 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 3: If he can stay healthy, he probably goes down as 561 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 3: the all time leading scorer, and he's won two titles already, 562 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 3: He's won a m v P. He might win more. 563 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 3: It's right now, Fisher. 564 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 2: Okay, fishy. 565 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: Uh. 566 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: The NBA does not want to see Utah or Phoenix 567 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 2: in the finals. Fisher, fishy. 568 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 3: I think I'll say fishy. But if Utah does make it, 569 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 3: they'll definitely use this last dance nostalgia as a way 570 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 3: to pump up like the Jazz are back and they'll 571 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 3: try to They'll try to do the whole nineties whatnot, 572 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 3: and they'll make it work. 573 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 2: Doesn't have the same ring as Knicks being back though. 574 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 575 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, Anthony Edwards will be a superstar in five years 576 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: for sure, fish. 577 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 3: Fish sure, I think maybe sooner. I think he is great. 578 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 3: I think. I mean from talking to Minnesota people throughout 579 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 3: the last couple of weeks, I mean, just the growth 580 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 3: he's shown in these games that mean nothing has been 581 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 3: amazing to watch. And I wrote a story for Bleach 582 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 3: Report before the draft ranking him over LaMelo and comparing 583 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 3: and contrasting. I think Edwards is going to be a 584 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 3: two way stud like someone like Dwayne Wade, maybe even better. 585 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 3: He is really really going to be. I mean, he's 586 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 3: got the personality to match too. 587 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 2: I totally agree with you. Ianis will be a buck 588 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 2: in two years. Fisher fishy, fishy. 589 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 3: He was definitely considering before the Supermax extension. He was 590 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 3: definitely considering Miami in Dallas. I know for a fact 591 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 3: talking to people in his representation group, they were they 592 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 3: brought up, They broke out the calculator and were comparing 593 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 3: four year deals in Florida and Texas with those state 594 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 3: taxes versus the five year super max and Milwaukee, and 595 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 3: I don't think they're making it out of the East 596 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 3: this year. I don't think they're gonna that that things 597 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 3: are gonna change with Brooklyn and Philly going anywhere. And 598 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 3: if they don't do it, you know, he easily can 599 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 3: ask for a trade. And I'm not saying it's going 600 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 3: to happen, but I think it's very likely. 601 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 2: All Right, three quick ones, we get you out of here. 602 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 2: Julius Randall is better than Chris Bosh. Fisher fishy. That's ridiculous. 603 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 3: I'm gonna say fishy. But he's on his way. He's 604 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 3: definitely on it. Chris, Chris Bosh was never a real 605 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 3: bonifide m VP candidate. I'll give you that. 606 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: There you go, James Dolan Fisher, fishy, fishy. 607 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not a hockey fan, but what I 608 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 3: read about the Rangers this week was not good. 609 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 2: Okay. And the last one for you, Stutts. 610 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 3: Well, if you get if you got me on a 611 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 3: Levatard after this Fisher, Wait. 612 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 2: So right now, I'm fishy, but if I get young 613 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 2: with Dan Fisher. 614 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 3: If you don't you're still Fisher, but I'm gonna hold 615 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 3: you to it. 616 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: I don't want to be Fisher. Hey, this was fantastic, man. 617 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: We appreciate it. Built to lose, how the NBA is 618 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 2: taking are a change the league forever. Jake Fisher is 619 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 2: the author. Also check him out Bleacher Report. Jake, this 620 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 2: was a lot of fun. Man. Hope you enjoyed it. 621 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: I will get you on with Levator and I will. 622 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 2: I will do everything I can. 623 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 3: You're on the You're on the record now, and in 624 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 3: my in my line of work, I hope people do that. 625 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: Listen, tell me to take it out in my line 626 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: of work. We have two different lines. I know we're 627 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: the same industry, but you're a journalist. I'm not in 628 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 2: my line of work. That meant nothing, Jake, luck with 629 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 2: a book. We appreciate it. Man, you were awesome. 630 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 3: Thank you man, Thank you guys. This is really fun. 631 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 2: Mike, that was fantastic. Jake Fisher was fantastic. I don't 632 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 2: know why I'm so surprised. I sound surprised. I should 633 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 2: have been surprised, but I'm surprised that Jake fucking Fisher 634 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: was that good. Mike, have you thought of any athletes 635 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 2: that cannote losing, cannote tanking. Uh, since the since the 636 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: last time I ask you and I gave you a 637 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 2: little J P. Lassman, have you Uh that's a no, 638 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 2: because I spent the entire time with Jake Fisher. All 639 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 2: I was thinking about. His information was great. I think 640 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 2: I'll trust the audience on it. I'll trust you. All 641 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 2: I was thinking about was Ernie El's stupidity, El's get 642 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 2: it