WEBVTT - Truth Be Revealed 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.200 How Deep does a Mother's Love Run? Now streaming only 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:06.760 on Hulu. Experience a race against time by four mothers 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:10.039 who went undercover. My ex partner abducted our six year 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:12.000 old son and took him out of the country. This 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:15.080 was a mother's worth nightmare, and we'll stop at nothing. 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:18.279 I knew something bad and for the children they love. 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.079 I was so scared, and that's when all hell breaks loose. 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.800 Mother Undercover. I wanted him to know you mess with 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:29.280 the wrong mother. Now streaming only on Hulu Search Mother Undercover. 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.360 Since her role as White House correspondent, Caitlyn Collins has 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:36.559 never been afraid to dic deep. 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What's the real 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.920 story behind the Mona Lisa, We've got that. What caused 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.600 the collapse of Rome? We know? Where? Did we find 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:54.000 Mankind's earliest ancestor? Come find out? From Egypt to Weinstein. 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.960 Curiosity Stream is the place for history with monthly, annual, 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:02.279 and bundled plans. Find one for you curiosity stream dot com. 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.240 Welcome to the piked to Massacre a production of iHeartRadio 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:12.320 and Katie Studios Episode eight, Truth Be Revealed. Over the 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:15.040 course of seven episodes, we have examined the details of 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.320 the murders of eight members of the Roden family, the 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.080 investigation that was launched in their wake, and what led 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:22.919 up to the arrests of six members of the Wagner family. 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:25.440 Now we're going to look at where the case stands 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:30.919 and what lies ahead next week's episode, Burning Questions. I'm 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.600 Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.040 Ledecker and Jeff Shane. When we left off last week, 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.360 it was June twenty six, twenty nineteen, and Frederica Wagner 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:43.960 was in the defendant's chair in a Pike County courtroom. 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.799 She was facing charges of obstruction of justice and perjury 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:52.960 and connection with the Roden murders. Here's Frederica's niece, Derey, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:57.440 defending her aunt's claims. First, the prosecutors falsely believed the 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:02.080 bulletproof best were purchased before the road and homicides. Both 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:06.000 sides know that it is not true. They were in 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:10.640 fact purchased on May the seventh, twenty and sixteen, fifteen 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:14.640 days after the day of the homicides. So that's proven. 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.040 We know that there's like receipts, right, yep, got receipt Scott. 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:22.600 We have everything. Second, she guessed and thought that she 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.919 bought them from Amazon. Now why they made a big 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:32.720 deal about what what origin? They came off the internet? 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:36.480 She ordered him off the internet. Whenever you go on 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.880 the Internet, a bunch of places come up. Usually Amazon 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.080 is the first thing that comes up. She did that 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:45.200 a lot, but they made a big deal about it. 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.960 So they went back through her books and they found 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:53.000 out that she did buy them, but it wasn't from Amazon. 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:58.600 It was eBay. But criminal defense attorney Mike Allen told 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.440 Jeff that Frederica State are a much bigger deal than 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.720 deray things. Well, obviously, when you have a situation like 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:09.200 this and someone involved with the people that are charged 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.680 makes a purchase of two bulletproof fast, whether it's from 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:17.280 eBay or Amazon, it's something that the prosecution would be 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:20.919 interested in. And you know, she apparently was before the 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:25.680 grand jury when she misrepresented, if you will, where she 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:30.120 bought these things from. And it's relevant and also too, 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.159 I think it would be fair to say that the 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.480 prosecution probably wanted this put on it, these charges put 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:38.400 on her to have a little bit of leverage with 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:42.440 her too. Do you think that her explanation of just saying, oh, 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.360 I don't remember, I got it confused as an attorney, 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.640 do you think that makes someone look more guilty? Yeah, 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.480 it does, especially something like this. And I know she's elderly, 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.240 but boy, she should certainly seems like she's pretty sharp. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.080 But it's a rather big event. In most people's lives, 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:02.839 if they purchased bulletproof vest online or anyway you purchased them, 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.560 that you would think that you would remember where you 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:09.920 purchased them from. So yeah, it doesn't make her look 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:16.440 good at all. Ultimately, Frederico Wagner's lawyer filed receipts that 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.600 proved she made the purchases fifteen days after the slayings. 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:23.640 This led the defense team to turn over potential evidence 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.320 as required to the prosecution, too late to meet the 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.440 criteria for a speedy trial. They dismissed the charges against 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.400 Frederico Wagner, while reserving the right to charge her again. 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.080 Mike Allen broke down what all this means with respect 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:41.120 to the Ohio Speedy trial statute. It's generally you have 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:43.920 to bring a felony case within two hundred and seventy 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:48.080 days from the indictment. I think the prosecution was running 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.240 out of time, so strategically, I think they decided to 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.360 dismiss it with the option and the right to refile 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.320 it again if that becomes necessary, so she could get 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.160 charged with the same crimes again. Oh yeah, they were 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.000 dismissed without prejudice, which means that the state can refile 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:09.760 them at a later date. But it seems that Frederico 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:13.200 Wagner doesn't foresee that happening. Here. She is speaking to 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:15.920 the press after the hearing. Trust in the Lord with 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.200 all your heart, lean not to your own understanding, in 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:22.839 all your ways. Acknowledge Him and he will direct your path. 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.600 And as my attorney will tell you, it was dismissed 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.279 because I was innocent. They had no evidence against me. 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:37.560 I never lied about anything. Frederico Wagner's freedom validates what 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:42.440 Deray has believed all along. She has never in her 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:49.359 life done anything wrong. She's not capable of it. And 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.080 you know, if she thought that her kids would have 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:56.880 done something bad, she would have recommended that they turned 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:02.599 themselves in for anything. I mean she she lives by 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:09.200 what she says she lives by, which is what well. 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:15.800 She gives all the glory to God. Angela, Billy Jake, 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:20.080 and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's mother, 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.680 Rita Joe Nukam, and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica were both 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.559 charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucombe was also 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.920 charged with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty, 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.360 and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt is proven. 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:40.240 But one thing that doesn't help Frederica Wagner's case is 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.280 a revelation by the prosecution at a pre trial hearing 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.720 for her son Billy in twenty twenty, The States submitted 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.120 evidence showing that the night before Frederica testified before the 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:53.040 grand jury in twenty eighteen, she had searched the Internet 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:59.040 for information about penalties for perjury. Here's our anonymous Wagner 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.280 family relative. She shared her thoughts with Jeff. Do you 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.160 think that his mom, Billy's mom, Frederica, Do you think 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.680 she had any involvement? I believe that I believe she 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:12.440 could have. Yet I believe that she definitely. Uh. I 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:14.480 don't believe she try to stop it, you know, I 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.120 don't believe that she. I believe it's anything she probably 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:22.480 definitely she would have encouraged it and her story should 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:28.080 do what he did. Others like Roden family friend Stefane, 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.280 thinks that Frederico wasn't just involved in the murders, but 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.199 could possibly have orchestrated the whole thing. I don't take 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.760 her for a dumb woman at all. She's a businesswoman. 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:42.880 She's probably shrewd. She's the head the monarch, you know, 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.920 so the monarch is usually the one that that has 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:51.000 their thumb on everybody. She wanted to control over everything, 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:56.920 seems to me. Like to investigative journalist Jodi Barr, the 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:00.800 alleged involvement of Frederico Wagner up ends convened of who 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.920 actually could be capable of being involved in murder. I 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:08.199 think this case, if it ended today as it is alleged, 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:10.439 I don't think there is anybody on this planet that 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:14.680 could look at those people and say, those people look 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:19.400 like a family who could swatter eight human beings if 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:21.800 you ever thought you knew what a mass murderer looked like. 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.080 I think this case in Pike County is showing you 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:29.440 you have no idea. So here we are four years later. 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.240 Two of the six defendants are free and four others 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:36.559 are in prison facing death penalty charges, accused of killing 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:40.680 eight members of the Roden family. Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff. 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:43.880 As it stands now, the trials for Billy, Angela, Jake, 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.320 and George Wagner are slated to begin in the next 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:49.360 few months. Now. To really understand this case and where 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:51.640 it stands in what's to come, we'll have to examine 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.480 some of the most important points. In the five thousand 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:58.920 pages of discovery documents that list the prosecution's evidence. There 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.960 are more than three written thirty two thousand files of 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:04.640 evidence in this case. One of the exhibits in the 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.600 prosecution's arsenal is related to Billy Wagner in his copy 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.520 of the nineteen ninety nine movie The Boondock Saints. The 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.160 film is about two brothers in Boston who exact a 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.480 form of vigilanty justice by murdering mobsters and other criminals. 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.920 It's extremely violent and over the top, but the big 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.120 takeaway for this case is that the brothers in the 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:25.559 film use silencers. On their guns, a method that members 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.280 of the Wagner family are accused of using to execute 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.120 the Rodents. As we covered in the last episode, a 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.400 homemade silencer was discovered at a farm once owned by 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.839 Jake and George Wagner, but Deray thinks the connection is 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:43.559 tenuous at best. I read deck and I had to laugh. 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:49.679 I had to laugh so hard. Okay, so you have 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:58.520 to remember that this was a very organized, brilliantly done execution. 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.359 This is something that you wouldn't learn on a DVD. 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:13.280 Somebody with military background, Navy seals. I mean, whoever did 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:18.720 it was was brilliant. They're professional. These people are not 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:25.319 professional killers. Mike Gallant told Jeff that the DVD could 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.760 be a building block in the state's case. You can't 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.319 watch a movie and learn how to wipe out an 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:33.400 entire family. That seems like a stretch. What is your 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.600 take on that. Yeah, I don't think they could introduce 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.880 it for the proposition that that's how the Wagner's learned 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:45.119 how to do that. I think if the state introduced 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.560 it or attempted to get it introduced, it would just 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:51.280 be kind of peripheral to like, hey, you know, somebody 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.559 in that family watched that movie or ordered that movie, 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.880 or bought that movie, and it's a movie about vigilante justice. 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.760 But I would certainly cry at least because apparently in 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:06.640 this case, the allegation is silencers were used, and they 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.120 were used in that movie as well, So it would 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.840 be one piece of evidence that they could add on 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.680 to other evidence. It would be a piece of evidence 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:19.440 if admitted that they could talk about in closing arguments. So, 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:24.480 while not determinative in any way, shape or form, it 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:29.320 is evidence that could be helpful to the state. There's 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.120 a mountain of other evidence the prosecution plans on using. 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:35.480 One that stands out is an Excel spreadsheet that contains 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:38.880 five hundred and nineteen entries of messages about child custody. 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.240 I spoke with my Gallon about it. Another piece of 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.760 evidence that's been talked about are these Excel spreadsheets. Apparently 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.480 they had hundreds of entries of cataloging the messages about 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.800 child custody and Facebook screenshots regarding it, what does that 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.719 tell you, Well, it tells me that could be part 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.360 of the motive in this case. And it's pretty strong 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:05.600 evidence of motive if they're keeping all these things and screenshots, 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.040 and it seems that they were kind of obsessed with 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:13.760 his desire to get custody and control. That would be circumstantial, 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.960 but circumstantial evidence sometimes can be very strong evidence. Just 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.760 because evidence is circumstantial doesn't mean that it's not good 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.280 evidence and strong evidence. But you know, it's like you're 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:30.800 dropping pebbles into a pond. Every little pebble makes a ripple, 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:34.000 and you know, you build on those things and at 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.160 the end of the day, at the prosecution does it right. 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.480 Every little bit helps with respect to building a case. 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.480 The discovery documents also include information about a person that 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:50.360 some speculate could be an informant. Jodie Barr told us 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.199 about trying to track down this source. The name of 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.559 the informant has not been published, which is why it's 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:57.960 bleeped in his interview. The only thing I know is 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:01.520 that was a name given very early on who I 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:06.080 was told did business with Chris Rodin. I was never 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:10.000 able to even find that this person exists. I guess 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.560 they did. This person really does exist. But when I 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:15.320 was given a list of names of people who could 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:19.480 have potentially either been involved in this, knew about this. 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.600 This is one person I tried to track down and 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.920 find over in Sciota County, which is just across the 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.320 line from Pike, and I was never able to find 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.560 this person. But I was told that this person knew 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:35.520 Chris Senior intimately as far as you know, they were 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:40.240 together a lot, and they were in some business ventures together. 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.040 But again I was never able to find this person 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:49.880 or to verify anything that was ever told me about them. 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:53.640 Prosecutors for the case claim another confidential informant told them 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:57.280 of a specific meeting at Frederico Wagner's home. It occurred 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.120 with the other accused family members and allegedly include to 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.400 talk of quote taking revenge on a special agent then 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.200 Attorney General Mike Dawine, and Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader. 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.680 The revenge was allegedly planned if her family was arrested. 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.880 Jodie Barr dissected these claims with Jeff. It just seems 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.400 so careless that the people accused of this would be 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.560 bringing outsiders into a home, although we don't know who 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.920 the confidential informant is, but that they would risk getting 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.720 caught if they were so skillful in pulling this off 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.800 that they would bring outsiders in to have discussions like 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:40.200 this where they're number one admitting it essentially, but secularly, 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:43.720 you're talking about taking hits out on the chief law 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.560 enforcer in Pike County and the chief law enforce for 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.080 the state of Ohio. But that's an interesting point that 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.000 it doesn't really compute that if they were like ninjas 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:52.960 and they could do this of elaborate crime, why would 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.360 they be so sloppy then to have these conversations with 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:59.080 other people. When I see confidential informant in this sentence 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.320 meant a part of he goes. I wonder if one 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:07.040 of the Wagoners has rolled over and is helping this 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:11.120 investigation still something I know there have been some plea 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:17.480 deals already made here, some charges dismissed. But you've got 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.240 to wonder who is this informant because if it's a 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.520 member of the Wagner family, and I think that's a 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:31.120 twist no one saw coming. Let's stop here for a 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:36.360 quick commercial break. 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The discovery documents also have two thousand, 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:20.720 nine hundred and eighteen pages related to DNA evidence. Mike 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.160 Allen spoke to us about the role DNA could play 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.639 in the case. I can tell you from dealing with 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:29.720 DNA evidence both as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney. 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.120 That's not good news for the defense If they've got 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:38.160 almost three thousand pages of DNA evidence, evidence that would 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:40.960 have been sent to the lab and comes back, they've 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.480 got to have something. I mean, I would be shocked 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:47.959 if they didn't have some credible DNA evidence against at 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:52.080 least one of these defendants, probably more of them. That's 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.080 bad news for the defense. There's just no way of 0:20:55.119 --> 0:21:00.399 getting around it. Because DNA evidence, if extracted proper and 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:05.640 analyze properly, it's pretty much lights out if they did 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:09.320 it correctly. So I think that's problematic for the defense. 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.879 Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff. In addition, the report also 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.520 lists one thousand, one hundred and seventy crime scene photos, 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.800 cyber forensic reports of the Wagners, their cell phones and 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:26.040 their computers, and hundreds of pages citing reference to the 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.840 recovery of firearms and ballistic testing. In fact, at the 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:32.640 pre trial hearing for George Wagner just a few weeks ago, 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:35.360 we got a glimpse into some of the evidence they have. 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:38.600 So this hearing was for emotion. The defense was making 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:42.240 to get George Wagner, the eldest son, released from prison 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:45.320 on bond. In response, the prosecution laid out some of 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.479 the evidence they have against George Wagner, basically as an 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.480 argument to keep George behind bars. One of the lead 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.240 detectives on the case testified that he and his team 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:58.520 have real ballistic evidence connecting firearms used in the homicides 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.120 with guns believed to be owned by the Wagners, including 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.720 a twenty two caliber long rifle, a forty caliber handgun, 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:11.120 and a thirty caliber gun. Prosecutors also pointed to evidence 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:15.000 that shoeprints from the exact same shoes purchased at Walmart 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:19.320 by the Wagners to allegedly frame Dana Rodin's brother, you remember, 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:22.760 James Manley, were found in dried blood at two of 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:26.040 the crime scenes, and yet this in fact receipts for 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:29.560 those exact same shoes. There are a very specific Walmart 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:33.200 athletic shoe were found during a search of the Wagner 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:37.760 property in twenty sixteen. There are also over eight thousand 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:41.240 recorded statements from interviews with George Wagner who claimed there 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:45.240 really was no issue regarding custody between Jake Wagner and 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:48.479 Hannah Rowdin over their daughter Sophia, and that we know 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:51.120 is just not true. Right, So, with all of this 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:53.959 the Wagners still continue to declare their innocence. Is it 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.399 really possible that they did? In facts have nothing to 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:59.040 do with it. Well. Recently, one of the Wagner's lawyers 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:01.560 made statements to the US saying that a loose custody 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:05.320 arrangement between Jake Wagner and Hannah further daughter Sophia was 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:08.160 being formalized by another attorney in Ohio at the time 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:10.600 of the killings, but due to the fact that Hannah 0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:13.439 was murdered, the agreement was never formalized, so it's not 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:17.440 permissible in court. I spoke with Deray about her second cousin, 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:19.239 Jake Wagner, to see if we could get any more 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:22.560 information on the custody arrangement between him and Hannah Rodan, 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:24.600 do you know anything about like they were trying to 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:28.480 get custody of Sophia before the murders. I don't know 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:31.960 anything about that, Okay, Yeah, I was just curious, Yeah, 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:34.240 because you hear a lot about that. Yeah, I never heard, 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:36.320 you know, I talked to my aunt a lot that 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:40.680 was never mentioned. So do you think that that is 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:44.320 fabricated as well? If I'm hearing you right, I don't 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:48.480 believe that it has anything to do with it. I 0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:51.880 don't believe there was a custody battle. I think that's 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:55.520 another made up lie. What makes you say that because 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:59.359 I never heard anything about it. I mean, somebody did it, 0:24:00.800 --> 0:24:03.560 but we don't know who, and we are for sure 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:07.880 it wasn't the Wagner family. It's a tragedy. And most 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:10.480 of the people that I talked to, they're all thinking 0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:15.480 it's drug related, something that had to do with drug trafficking. 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:23.680 We don't know. It's who knows. It's a mystery. We 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:26.280 found it strange for a woman who covers her family's 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:29.360 case closely not to know anything about the custody issues 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:33.360 that other family relatives disclose to us before. Even stranger 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:36.080 is something else that was presented at George Wagner's most 0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:40.400 recent pre trial hearing Again He's the eldest son. Prosecutors 0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:43.040 pointed to a screenshot of a message from Hannah Rodin 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:46.199 to one of her friends. In this message, she's discussing 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:50.240 the Wagner's attempt to force her to sign forged custody documents, 0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:53.840 the ones that we've talked about in previous episodes. Now 0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:57.480 get this. The screenshot was found on the Wagner family 0:24:57.520 --> 0:25:03.040