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Speaker 1: Welcome to the piked to Massacre a production of iHeartRadio

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Speaker 1: and Katie Studios Episode eight, Truth Be Revealed. Over the

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Speaker 1: course of seven episodes, we have examined the details of

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Speaker 1: the murders of eight members of the Roden family, the

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Speaker 1: investigation that was launched in their wake, and what led

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Speaker 1: up to the arrests of six members of the Wagner family.

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Speaker 1: Now we're going to look at where the case stands

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Speaker 1: and what lies ahead next week's episode, Burning Questions. I'm

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Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie

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Speaker 1: Ledecker and Jeff Shane. When we left off last week,

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Speaker 1: it was June twenty six, twenty nineteen, and Frederica Wagner

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Speaker 1: was in the defendant's chair in a Pike County courtroom.

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Speaker 1: She was facing charges of obstruction of justice and perjury

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Speaker 1: and connection with the Roden murders. Here's Frederica's niece, Derey,

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Speaker 1: defending her aunt's claims. First, the prosecutors falsely believed the

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Speaker 1: bulletproof best were purchased before the road and homicides. Both

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Speaker 1: sides know that it is not true. They were in

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Speaker 1: fact purchased on May the seventh, twenty and sixteen, fifteen

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Speaker 1: days after the day of the homicides. So that's proven.

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Speaker 1: We know that there's like receipts, right, yep, got receipt Scott.

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Speaker 1: We have everything. Second, she guessed and thought that she

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Speaker 1: bought them from Amazon. Now why they made a big

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Speaker 1: deal about what what origin? They came off the internet?

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Speaker 1: She ordered him off the internet. Whenever you go on

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Speaker 1: the Internet, a bunch of places come up. Usually Amazon

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Speaker 1: is the first thing that comes up. She did that

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Speaker 1: a lot, but they made a big deal about it.

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Speaker 1: So they went back through her books and they found

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Speaker 1: out that she did buy them, but it wasn't from Amazon.

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Speaker 1: It was eBay. But criminal defense attorney Mike Allen told

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Speaker 1: Jeff that Frederica State are a much bigger deal than

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Speaker 1: deray things. Well, obviously, when you have a situation like

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Speaker 1: this and someone involved with the people that are charged

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Speaker 1: makes a purchase of two bulletproof fast, whether it's from

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Speaker 1: eBay or Amazon, it's something that the prosecution would be

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Speaker 1: interested in. And you know, she apparently was before the

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Speaker 1: grand jury when she misrepresented, if you will, where she

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Speaker 1: bought these things from. And it's relevant and also too,

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Speaker 1: I think it would be fair to say that the

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Speaker 1: prosecution probably wanted this put on it, these charges put

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Speaker 1: on her to have a little bit of leverage with

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Speaker 1: her too. Do you think that her explanation of just saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember, I got it confused as an attorney,

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Speaker 1: do you think that makes someone look more guilty? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it does, especially something like this. And I know she's elderly,

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Speaker 1: but boy, she should certainly seems like she's pretty sharp.

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Speaker 1: But it's a rather big event. In most people's lives,

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Speaker 1: if they purchased bulletproof vest online or anyway you purchased them,

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Speaker 1: that you would think that you would remember where you

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Speaker 1: purchased them from. So yeah, it doesn't make her look

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Speaker 1: good at all. Ultimately, Frederico Wagner's lawyer filed receipts that

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Speaker 1: proved she made the purchases fifteen days after the slayings.

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Speaker 1: This led the defense team to turn over potential evidence

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Speaker 1: as required to the prosecution, too late to meet the

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Speaker 1: criteria for a speedy trial. They dismissed the charges against

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Speaker 1: Frederico Wagner, while reserving the right to charge her again.

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Speaker 1: Mike Allen broke down what all this means with respect

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Speaker 1: to the Ohio Speedy trial statute. It's generally you have

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Speaker 1: to bring a felony case within two hundred and seventy

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Speaker 1: days from the indictment. I think the prosecution was running

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Speaker 1: out of time, so strategically, I think they decided to

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Speaker 1: dismiss it with the option and the right to refile

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Speaker 1: it again if that becomes necessary, so she could get

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Speaker 1: charged with the same crimes again. Oh yeah, they were

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Speaker 1: dismissed without prejudice, which means that the state can refile

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Speaker 1: them at a later date. But it seems that Frederico

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Speaker 1: Wagner doesn't foresee that happening. Here. She is speaking to

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Speaker 1: the press after the hearing. Trust in the Lord with

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Speaker 1: all your heart, lean not to your own understanding, in

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Speaker 1: all your ways. Acknowledge Him and he will direct your path.

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Speaker 1: And as my attorney will tell you, it was dismissed

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Speaker 1: because I was innocent. They had no evidence against me.

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Speaker 1: I never lied about anything. Frederico Wagner's freedom validates what

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Speaker 1: Deray has believed all along. She has never in her

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Speaker 1: life done anything wrong. She's not capable of it. And

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Speaker 1: you know, if she thought that her kids would have

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Speaker 1: done something bad, she would have recommended that they turned

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Speaker 1: themselves in for anything. I mean she she lives by

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Speaker 1: what she says she lives by, which is what well.

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Speaker 1: She gives all the glory to God. Angela, Billy Jake,

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Speaker 1: and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's mother,

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Speaker 1: Rita Joe Nukam, and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica were both

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Speaker 1: charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucombe was also

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Speaker 1: charged with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty,

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Speaker 1: and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt is proven.

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Speaker 1: But one thing that doesn't help Frederica Wagner's case is

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Speaker 1: a revelation by the prosecution at a pre trial hearing

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Speaker 1: for her son Billy in twenty twenty, The States submitted

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Speaker 1: evidence showing that the night before Frederica testified before the

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Speaker 1: grand jury in twenty eighteen, she had searched the Internet

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Speaker 1: for information about penalties for perjury. Here's our anonymous Wagner

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Speaker 1: family relative. She shared her thoughts with Jeff. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that his mom, Billy's mom, Frederica, Do you think

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Speaker 1: she had any involvement? I believe that I believe she

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Speaker 1: could have. Yet I believe that she definitely. Uh. I

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Speaker 1: don't believe she try to stop it, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't believe that she. I believe it's anything she probably

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Speaker 1: definitely she would have encouraged it and her story should

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Speaker 1: do what he did. Others like Roden family friend Stefane,

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Speaker 1: thinks that Frederico wasn't just involved in the murders, but

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Speaker 1: could possibly have orchestrated the whole thing. I don't take

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Speaker 1: her for a dumb woman at all. She's a businesswoman.

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Speaker 1: She's probably shrewd. She's the head the monarch, you know,

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Speaker 1: so the monarch is usually the one that that has

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Speaker 1: their thumb on everybody. She wanted to control over everything,

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Speaker 1: seems to me. Like to investigative journalist Jodi Barr, the

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Speaker 1: alleged involvement of Frederico Wagner up ends convened of who

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Speaker 1: actually could be capable of being involved in murder. I

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Speaker 1: think this case, if it ended today as it is alleged,

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Speaker 1: I don't think there is anybody on this planet that

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Speaker 1: could look at those people and say, those people look

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Speaker 1: like a family who could swatter eight human beings if

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Speaker 1: you ever thought you knew what a mass murderer looked like.

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Speaker 1: I think this case in Pike County is showing you

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Speaker 1: you have no idea. So here we are four years later.

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Speaker 1: Two of the six defendants are free and four others

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Speaker 1: are in prison facing death penalty charges, accused of killing

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Speaker 1: eight members of the Roden family. Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff.

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Speaker 1: As it stands now, the trials for Billy, Angela, Jake,

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Speaker 1: and George Wagner are slated to begin in the next

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Speaker 1: few months. Now. To really understand this case and where

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Speaker 1: it stands in what's to come, we'll have to examine

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Speaker 1: some of the most important points. In the five thousand

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Speaker 1: pages of discovery documents that list the prosecution's evidence. There

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Speaker 1: are more than three written thirty two thousand files of

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Speaker 1: evidence in this case. One of the exhibits in the

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Speaker 1: prosecution's arsenal is related to Billy Wagner in his copy

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Speaker 1: of the nineteen ninety nine movie The Boondock Saints. The

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Speaker 1: film is about two brothers in Boston who exact a

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Speaker 1: form of vigilanty justice by murdering mobsters and other criminals.

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Speaker 1: It's extremely violent and over the top, but the big

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Speaker 1: takeaway for this case is that the brothers in the

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Speaker 1: film use silencers. On their guns, a method that members

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Speaker 1: of the Wagner family are accused of using to execute

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Speaker 1: the Rodents. As we covered in the last episode, a

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Speaker 1: homemade silencer was discovered at a farm once owned by

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Speaker 1: Jake and George Wagner, but Deray thinks the connection is

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Speaker 1: tenuous at best. I read deck and I had to laugh.

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Speaker 1: I had to laugh so hard. Okay, so you have

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Speaker 1: to remember that this was a very organized, brilliantly done execution.

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Speaker 1: This is something that you wouldn't learn on a DVD.

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Speaker 1: Somebody with military background, Navy seals. I mean, whoever did

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Speaker 1: it was was brilliant. They're professional. These people are not

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Speaker 1: professional killers. Mike Gallant told Jeff that the DVD could

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Speaker 1: be a building block in the state's case. You can't

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Speaker 1: watch a movie and learn how to wipe out an

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Speaker 1: entire family. That seems like a stretch. What is your

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Speaker 1: take on that. Yeah, I don't think they could introduce

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Speaker 1: it for the proposition that that's how the Wagner's learned

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Speaker 1: how to do that. I think if the state introduced

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Speaker 1: it or attempted to get it introduced, it would just

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Speaker 1: be kind of peripheral to like, hey, you know, somebody

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Speaker 1: in that family watched that movie or ordered that movie,

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Speaker 1: or bought that movie, and it's a movie about vigilante justice.

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Speaker 1: But I would certainly cry at least because apparently in

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Speaker 1: this case, the allegation is silencers were used, and they

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Speaker 1: were used in that movie as well, So it would

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Speaker 1: be one piece of evidence that they could add on

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Speaker 1: to other evidence. It would be a piece of evidence

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Speaker 1: if admitted that they could talk about in closing arguments. So,

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Speaker 1: while not determinative in any way, shape or form, it

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Speaker 1: is evidence that could be helpful to the state. There's

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Speaker 1: a mountain of other evidence the prosecution plans on using.

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Speaker 1: One that stands out is an Excel spreadsheet that contains

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Speaker 1: five hundred and nineteen entries of messages about child custody.

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Speaker 1: I spoke with my Gallon about it. Another piece of

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Speaker 1: evidence that's been talked about are these Excel spreadsheets. Apparently

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Speaker 1: they had hundreds of entries of cataloging the messages about

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Speaker 1: child custody and Facebook screenshots regarding it, what does that

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Speaker 1: tell you, Well, it tells me that could be part

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Speaker 1: of the motive in this case. And it's pretty strong

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Speaker 1: evidence of motive if they're keeping all these things and screenshots,

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Speaker 1: and it seems that they were kind of obsessed with

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Speaker 1: his desire to get custody and control. That would be circumstantial,

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Speaker 1: but circumstantial evidence sometimes can be very strong evidence. Just

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Speaker 1: because evidence is circumstantial doesn't mean that it's not good

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Speaker 1: evidence and strong evidence. But you know, it's like you're

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Speaker 1: dropping pebbles into a pond. Every little pebble makes a ripple,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you build on those things and at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, at the prosecution does it right.

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Speaker 1: Every little bit helps with respect to building a case.

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Speaker 1: The discovery documents also include information about a person that

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Speaker 1: some speculate could be an informant. Jodie Barr told us

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Speaker 1: about trying to track down this source. The name of

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Speaker 1: the informant has not been published, which is why it's

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Speaker 1: bleeped in his interview. The only thing I know is

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Speaker 1: that was a name given very early on who I

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Speaker 1: was told did business with Chris Rodin. I was never

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Speaker 1: able to even find that this person exists. I guess

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Speaker 1: they did. This person really does exist. But when I

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Speaker 1: was given a list of names of people who could

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Speaker 1: have potentially either been involved in this, knew about this.

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Speaker 1: This is one person I tried to track down and

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Speaker 1: find over in Sciota County, which is just across the

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Speaker 1: line from Pike, and I was never able to find

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Speaker 1: this person. But I was told that this person knew

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Speaker 1: Chris Senior intimately as far as you know, they were

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Speaker 1: together a lot, and they were in some business ventures together.

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Speaker 1: But again I was never able to find this person

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Speaker 1: or to verify anything that was ever told me about them.

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Speaker 1: Prosecutors for the case claim another confidential informant told them

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Speaker 1: of a specific meeting at Frederico Wagner's home. It occurred

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Speaker 1: with the other accused family members and allegedly include to

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Speaker 1: talk of quote taking revenge on a special agent then

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Speaker 1: Attorney General Mike Dawine, and Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader.

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Speaker 1: The revenge was allegedly planned if her family was arrested.

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Speaker 1: Jodie Barr dissected these claims with Jeff. It just seems

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Speaker 1: so careless that the people accused of this would be

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Speaker 1: bringing outsiders into a home, although we don't know who

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Speaker 1: the confidential informant is, but that they would risk getting

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Speaker 1: caught if they were so skillful in pulling this off

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Speaker 1: that they would bring outsiders in to have discussions like

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Speaker 1: this where they're number one admitting it essentially, but secularly,

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Speaker 1: you're talking about taking hits out on the chief law

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Speaker 1: enforcer in Pike County and the chief law enforce for

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Speaker 1: the state of Ohio. But that's an interesting point that

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really compute that if they were like ninjas

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Speaker 1: and they could do this of elaborate crime, why would

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Speaker 1: they be so sloppy then to have these conversations with

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Speaker 1: other people. When I see confidential informant in this sentence

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Speaker 1: meant a part of he goes. I wonder if one

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Speaker 1: of the Wagoners has rolled over and is helping this

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Speaker 1: investigation still something I know there have been some plea

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Speaker 1: deals already made here, some charges dismissed. But you've got

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Speaker 1: to wonder who is this informant because if it's a

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Speaker 1: member of the Wagner family, and I think that's a

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Speaker 1: twist no one saw coming. Let's stop here for a

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Speaker 1: quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment. Like

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Speaker 1: at uns dot coo. The discovery documents also have two thousand,

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Speaker 1: nine hundred and eighteen pages related to DNA evidence. Mike

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Speaker 1: Allen spoke to us about the role DNA could play

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Speaker 1: in the case. I can tell you from dealing with

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Speaker 1: DNA evidence both as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney.

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Speaker 1: That's not good news for the defense If they've got

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Speaker 1: almost three thousand pages of DNA evidence, evidence that would

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Speaker 1: have been sent to the lab and comes back, they've

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Speaker 1: got to have something. I mean, I would be shocked

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Speaker 1: if they didn't have some credible DNA evidence against at

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Speaker 1: least one of these defendants, probably more of them. That's

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Speaker 1: bad news for the defense. There's just no way of

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Speaker 1: getting around it. Because DNA evidence, if extracted proper and

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Speaker 1: analyze properly, it's pretty much lights out if they did

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Speaker 1: it correctly. So I think that's problematic for the defense.

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Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff. In addition, the report also

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Speaker 1: lists one thousand, one hundred and seventy crime scene photos,

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Speaker 1: cyber forensic reports of the Wagners, their cell phones and

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Speaker 1: their computers, and hundreds of pages citing reference to the

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Speaker 1: recovery of firearms and ballistic testing. In fact, at the

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Speaker 1: pre trial hearing for George Wagner just a few weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: we got a glimpse into some of the evidence they have.

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Speaker 1: So this hearing was for emotion. The defense was making

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Speaker 1: to get George Wagner, the eldest son, released from prison

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Speaker 1: on bond. In response, the prosecution laid out some of

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Speaker 1: the evidence they have against George Wagner, basically as an

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Speaker 1: argument to keep George behind bars. One of the lead

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Speaker 1: detectives on the case testified that he and his team

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Speaker 1: have real ballistic evidence connecting firearms used in the homicides

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Speaker 1: with guns believed to be owned by the Wagners, including

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Speaker 1: a twenty two caliber long rifle, a forty caliber handgun,

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Speaker 1: and a thirty caliber gun. Prosecutors also pointed to evidence

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Speaker 1: that shoeprints from the exact same shoes purchased at Walmart

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Speaker 1: by the Wagners to allegedly frame Dana Rodin's brother, you remember,

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Speaker 1: James Manley, were found in dried blood at two of

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Speaker 1: the crime scenes, and yet this in fact receipts for

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Speaker 1: those exact same shoes. There are a very specific Walmart

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Speaker 1: athletic shoe were found during a search of the Wagner

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Speaker 1: property in twenty sixteen. There are also over eight thousand

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Speaker 1: recorded statements from interviews with George Wagner who claimed there

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Speaker 1: really was no issue regarding custody between Jake Wagner and

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Speaker 1: Hannah Rowdin over their daughter Sophia, and that we know

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Speaker 1: is just not true. Right, So, with all of this

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Speaker 1: the Wagners still continue to declare their innocence. Is it

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Speaker 1: really possible that they did? In facts have nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with it. Well. Recently, one of the Wagner's lawyers

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Speaker 1: made statements to the US saying that a loose custody

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Speaker 1: arrangement between Jake Wagner and Hannah further daughter Sophia was

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Speaker 1: being formalized by another attorney in Ohio at the time

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Speaker 1: of the killings, but due to the fact that Hannah

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Speaker 1: was murdered, the agreement was never formalized, so it's not

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Speaker 1: permissible in court. I spoke with Deray about her second cousin,

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Speaker 1: Jake Wagner, to see if we could get any more

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Speaker 1: information on the custody arrangement between him and Hannah Rodan,

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Speaker 1: do you know anything about like they were trying to

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Speaker 1: get custody of Sophia before the murders. I don't know

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Speaker 1: anything about that, Okay, Yeah, I was just curious, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you hear a lot about that. Yeah, I never heard,

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Speaker 1: you know, I talked to my aunt a lot that

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Speaker 1: was never mentioned. So do you think that that is

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Speaker 1: fabricated as well? If I'm hearing you right, I don't

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Speaker 1: believe that it has anything to do with it. I

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Speaker 1: don't believe there was a custody battle. I think that's

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Speaker 1: another made up lie. What makes you say that because

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Speaker 1: I never heard anything about it. I mean, somebody did it,

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Speaker 1: but we don't know who, and we are for sure

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the Wagner family. It's a tragedy. And most

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Speaker 1: of the people that I talked to, they're all thinking

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Speaker 1: it's drug related, something that had to do with drug trafficking.

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Speaker 1: We don't know. It's who knows. It's a mystery. We

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Speaker 1: found it strange for a woman who covers her family's

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Speaker 1: case closely not to know anything about the custody issues

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Speaker 1: that other family relatives disclose to us before. Even stranger

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Speaker 1: is something else that was presented at George Wagner's most

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Speaker 1: recent pre trial hearing Again He's the eldest son. Prosecutors

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Speaker 1: pointed to a screenshot of a message from Hannah Rodin

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Speaker 1: to one of her friends. In this message, she's discussing

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Speaker 1: the Wagner's attempt to force her to sign forged custody documents,

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Speaker 1: the ones that we've talked about in previous episodes. Now

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00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: get this. The screenshot was found on the Wagner family

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00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: computer seized during the investigation, and again allegedly the Wagner's

402
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: got it by hacking into Hannah wrote In's Facebook account,

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00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: the message is nothing short of chilling. It reads and

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00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: I quote, I won't sign papers. Ever, it won't happen.

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Speaker 1: They'll have to kill me first. It does seem clear

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00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: that the Wagners were sort of obsessed with custody and

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00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 1: control of Sophia, and in speaking with people close to

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00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: the family, this actually wasn't the first time custody became

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Speaker 1: an issue. Christina Howard's sister, Tabby, was married to George

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Speaker 1: Wagner for several years. The two had a son together,

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Speaker 1: but eventually split up. According to Christina, following their divorce,

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Speaker 1: the Wagner family tried to force Tabby into handing over

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Speaker 1: custody of their son. This is Christina's recollection of events.

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Speaker 1: She spoke to Jeff about it. Somehow or another angela

415
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: like manipulated her with different papers to sign and stuff,

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00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: and they had Tabby finding over the rights and custody

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00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 1: to George. You know, they had money for expensive lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and Tabby did in and so they had custody plumb

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00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: up until you know, they got caught and stuff for

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00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: the crimes. Do you think that she was obsessed with

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00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: having custody of all of her grandkids? Oh? Yeah, definitely.

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00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: Why do you say that? Tabby Like whenever she would

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00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: try to reach out to George, like hey, can I

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Speaker 1: come visit my son? And Angela would get on there

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Speaker 1: and be like, oh, he's not your son anymore. Would

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00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: tell Tabby like, oh, you mighty gave virtul him, but

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00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: I'm his real mother because I take care of em,

428
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: and all these just nasty things. And Christina told us

429
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: that in the aftermath of Tabby and George's custody battle,

430
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: Hannah rode In contacted Tabby for advice and how to

431
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: deal with their own custody issues with the Wagner's. I

432
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 1: knew that Hannah was struggling to keep custody of Sophia

433
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: because she went to her and my sister were pretty close,

434
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: and you know, Tabby straight up told her, like, a,

435
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: if they present you with papers, do not sign them.

436
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: Give them to a lawyer first. Let the lawyer read

437
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: it over and proceed from there, because they will try

438
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: to steal custody of Sophia. Even if they're trying to

439
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: act like they're understanding and all of the swords. Do

440
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: not listen to them because they will strew you over.

441
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: Christina's account of George Wagner and Tabby's dispute, in addition

442
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: to everything we've heard about Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin,

443
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,959
Speaker 1: clearly lays out a pattern of deceit and control when

444
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: it comes to custody. But when Jeff asked de Ray

445
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: about George and Tabby's custody battle, she soundly refuted Christina's claims.

446
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: I want your side of this. People say that, like

447
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 1: George had a custody situation where he tried to get

448
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: custody of his son Jake, maybe a similar situation. People

449
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: are saying that, like Angela was just obsessed with getting

450
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: the kids and wanted all the control of the children. Yeah.

451
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: I don't believe that. I don't believe that. I know

452
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: she loved him, but I don't believe she was obsessed.

453
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: I think she was a normal grandmother and then she

454
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: was an excellent role model. Well, we don't know all

455
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: the details of George Wagner and Tabby's custody case. There

456
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: is evidence that the Wagners did deceive Hannah Rodin by

457
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: trying to convince her to sign fake custody documents. Here's Stephanie,

458
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: followed by Jeff. It seems being locked up in prison

459
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: hasn't even stopped the Wagners for one second from trying

460
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: to manipulate those closest to them. As we discussed earlier

461
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: in September of twenty nineteen, Angela Wagner tried to discuss

462
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: case strategy even influences testimony from prison. Prosecutors also claim

463
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: that Angela Wagner called her mother Rita Newcome. She's the

464
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: one that's accused of forging those custody documents. She called

465
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: her several times and basically asked her not to testify

466
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: against the family, and also told her how to explain

467
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: away the custody documents that she's accused of forging. As

468
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: a punishment, a judge suspended Angela Wagner's in jail phone

469
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: and mail privileges. Mike Allen told us that this is

470
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: just another blow for the defense. Any criminal defense attorney

471
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: that is doing their job, and I'm sure every one

472
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: of these criminal defense attorneys are doing their job, they

473
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: tell their client from day one, do not under any

474
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: circumstances discuss the case on the phone. Because you can

475
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: guarantee that the conversations are being taped, Prosecutors can use

476
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: those conversations if the person is talking about strategy, make

477
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: some kind of admission, intimidates witnesses, the recording doesn't lie,

478
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: and that could end up to be some pretty strong

479
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: evidence against her at the end of the day. George

480
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: Wagner has also raised eyebrows for an odd request he

481
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: made after five months in prison, he has to be

482
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: transferred from general population to solitary confinement. Usually, solitary confinement

483
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: is given to a prisoner who either is a threat

484
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: to other prisoners or who may be in danger in

485
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: the general population. Mike Allen told us that George had

486
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: a different reason. His stated reason was that he wanted

487
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: to be able to study the Bible in peace. That's

488
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: a little unusual when inmates ask for solitary A lot

489
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,719
Speaker 1: of times, although they may not say it, they're asking

490
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,719
Speaker 1: for that because they've been threatened, and you know, they

491
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: want to make sure that they're as safe as they

492
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: can be in jail. But when I read that, I

493
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: kind of wondered, is that the real reason? I mean,

494
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: you know, you just have to wonder what the motivation is.

495
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: So how does all this evidence end up? How strong

496
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: is the state's case against Billy, Angela Jake and George Wagner.

497
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: I'm a criminal defense attorney. I used to be a prosecutor,

498
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: and as a criminal defense attorney, you know you never

499
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: say never as far as you know your chances in

500
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: front of a jury. Having said that, the evidence sure

501
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: seems strong, and we don't know all the evidence. All

502
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: we know is what's public. So the old adage that

503
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: a prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich is true. But

504
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: smart prosecutors don't indict cases that they don't think they

505
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 1: can win beyond a reasonable doubt. And I think Mike Dwine,

506
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: who was in the driver's seat in this thing, there's

507
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: no way he would have indicted this if he didn't

508
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: think he could prove it, or ultimately someone could prove it.

509
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, let's stop here for

510
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: a quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment.

511
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: You will fail, So what everybody does, but your jim,

512
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513
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514
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522
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Speaker 1: No matter what kind of way. Yeah, you will fail,

523
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524
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Speaker 1: We've been covering this case for over two years, and

569
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: in that time we've examined not only the details of

570
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 1: the eight murders themselves, but the multiple theories that have

571
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 1: surrounded them. We looked into the speculation of a drug connection.

572
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 1: Discoveries of the murder scenes are now advancing the theory

573
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: killings could be related to a drug cartel. The Rodents

574
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 1: had a pretty sizable crop of marijuana plants on their property,

575
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 1: so you know, there were indications that they were involved

576
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: in some drug deals and drug trade with marijuana. We

577
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 1: explored the rumors of smalltown revenge. There had been reports

578
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: of scuple with other people in public in his message

579
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: and he's talking about I'm going to break his fucking

580
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: legs and curb stop his ass. We also investigated a

581
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: series of eerily similar killings. We have had a double homicide,

582
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: four children left alive. This is very similar to the

583
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: Rodent case. And we had heard that there were other

584
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: people who were shot Nolan I execution style in their homes.

585
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: And when you're looking at the Rodent case and then

586
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 1: you see these other cases in a county that small,

587
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: you start asking yourself, what the hell is going on.

588
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense that this is happening there unless

589
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: there is some sort of common denominator. But in the end,

590
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: it was some of the people who were closest to

591
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: the Rodents that were arrested for orchestrating the brutal, cold

592
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: plotted massacre at the center of this case, or members

593
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: the Wagner family whom we believe the avalanche will show,

594
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: conspired together to kill these ape As we struggled to

595
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: make sense of the crimes, we've listened to the impassioned

596
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 1: arguments of family members who insist that their relatives are innocent.

597
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: Our family joke is that there's no way that Betty

598
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 1: Crocker and the Dobe Boys could ever go to an

599
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: extreme of murder. Somebody did it, but it wasn't. Now

600
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: we've heard first person accounts from relatives that support the

601
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: primary motive in this case, Hannah and Jake with the

602
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: little girl. There was a custody battle and Hannah wasn't

603
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: allowing Jake to see her, and it just set him

604
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: off to the point where Jake he had made the comments,

605
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: you know that he was going to kill her. But

606
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: there are some who are simply torn. Ers were arrested,

607
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 1: You had your fifty fifty. You had people that said, yes,

608
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: I knew that they did that, and then you've got

609
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: people that say, there's no way those people did that.

610
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody would believe that, you know, a

611
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: family could have put together such a tactical hit on

612
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: another family that they had created life with. It's still

613
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: too difficult to accept and too hard to believe. Many

614
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: in the Pikedon area believe there is no doubt that

615
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: the Wagoners plotted this horrific killing spree. People wanted to

616
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: paint the sort of few between the Rodents and Wagoners,

617
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: and something like the hatfields of McCoys. Doesn't make sense

618
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: to me if they are innocent, because who else would

619
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: do that. Whether the Wagoners are innocent or guilty doesn't

620
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: change the fact that the lives of eight members of

621
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: a revered local family, the Rodents, were taken on April

622
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: twenty second, twenty sixteen. Dana Roden, thirty seven year old mother,

623
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: a grandmother and nurse living in her brand new home.

624
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: Chris Rodin, forty year old, loving father and grandfather. Dana

625
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 1: and Chris's oldest son, twenty year old Frankie Roden, Frankie's fiance,

626
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: twenty year old Hannah Gilly, who was in bed with

627
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: their six month old baby, Frankie Roden's three year old son,

628
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: both of whom were spared. Hannahme Roden, nineteen year old

629
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: mother to two year old Sophia and her five day

630
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 1: old newborn Kylie, also spared. Dana and Chris's youngest child,

631
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: sixteen year old Chris Junior, who had just gotten his

632
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: driver's license, Chris Senior's older brother, forty four year old

633
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: Kenneth Roden, father of three, and his cousin, thirty eight

634
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: year old Gary Roden, who was staying with Chris Senior

635
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: that night. It is horrible to this day and Dana

636
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: and her family will never never get to celebrate birthdays,

637
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: you know, and have parties and get togethers and barbecues

638
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. It's it's terrible. It just really

639
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: hurts my heart. In all this, it's sometimes easy to

640
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: forget those whose lives were spared that faithful night, but

641
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: who lost everything in the process. The road in children,

642
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: it's two families really have been destroyed, and at the

643
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: center of that tragedy is you know, are these kids

644
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: whose families are torn apart and lost. Sofia is the

645
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: one that is losing the most at this point in

646
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 1: her life because she's lost her mom's side of the family,

647
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: she's lost her father's side of the family, and she

648
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: is in child protective custody where no one knows where

649
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 1: she is. She has lost on both sides. She's lost

650
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: both of her families. Because it's supposed to be happy

651
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: for her. This is her childhood. The tragic legacy of

652
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: the road and murders continues to loom over the town

653
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 1: of Pyton, Ohio. You know, whatever happened that morning on

654
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: Union Hill Road, you know it impacted a lot more

655
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 1: than just those people who were killed. I mean, you've

656
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 1: got their family members, and you've got people in that

657
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: area are going to remember this forever. This has never

658
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: going away. My family was a part of this horrible,

659
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: I mean just absolutely awful act. You know that they

660
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 1: destroying this other family completely. They have changed the family's

661
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: life for the rest of their life. So but then

662
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like, well, you know ours has changed

663
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: as well. You know, we get tortured daily with the

664
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: thought of how our family could have done something like this,

665
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: and we still have love for them. I do feel

666
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: so terrible for the Dents, and I've always wanted to

667
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: be able to express how sorry I am. And just

668
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: because we still love Angela and Jake doesn't mean that

669
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: we aren't sorry for what take done. I get with

670
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: trials for Billy, Angela, Jake, and George Wagner potentially just

671
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,959
Speaker 1: months away, the residents of the Piketon area sit in anticipation,

672
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: awaiting an end to the most gruesome chapter in the

673
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: town's history and a conclusion to Ohio's most notorious murder case.

674
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: I've been in the system for over fifty years, and

675
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: that is extremely rare that you got for people, for

676
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: defendants facing the death penalty. What will happen is anyone's

677
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: guests if they walk out of that courtroom without any convictions.

678
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: I just can't imagine how the rodents go on in

679
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: the public too. I mean, how do you go on

680
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: not knowing for sure exactly who did this? Oh, it's

681
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 1: going to be broken hearted, It's gonna be broken hearts.

682
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 1: I honestly think that that the wagoners. It's going to

683
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: a mistrial. It's searched for the truth, and you know

684
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: that old proverb from Shakespeare the truth will out in

685
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: the end. I believe that as it applies to this case,

686
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: the mystery will be solved. The truth will eventually and

687
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: inevitably be discovered, And it looks like that's the way

688
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: they're heading. I, like everybody else, want to know. I

689
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: want to know how the story is. Reach out to

690
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 1: us on our social media outlets with questions We're on Instagram, Facebook,

691
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: and Twitter at piked and Massacre. We look forward to

692
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: answering our questions and upcoming episodes. Piked and Massacre is

693
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing

694
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing

695
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The pikedon Massacre is

696
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts

697
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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