WEBVTT - I Dump Wet Clothes on My Partner's Pillow 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.240 Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.880 New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.400 activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.279 And I'm doctor add Neru Kar, a physician and medical 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:21.120 correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.400 mental health, and burnout. We're here to peel back to 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.600 layers around why it's so easy for society to guard 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:31.000 men's time as if it's diamonds and to treat women's 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.400 time as if it's infinite like sands. And whether you 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:37.200 are partnered with or without children, or in a career 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:39.960 where you want more boundaries, this is the place for 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.040 you for all family structures. We're here to take a 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:49.600 time out to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:59.080 our time. So d D, I'm gonna tell you a 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:04.160 story today about communication. I love your stories. It's a 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:06.880 small story, but it's a couple that I really love 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:11.600 because they decided to implement and play fair play during 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:17.240 the pandemic and in the process of having a communication 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:22.360 check in together around what was valuable to them. The 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.720 couple I'll call them Richard and Amy decided that they 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:31.840 really cared and they wanted to keep magical beings in 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:33.480 their deck. That was something they were not going to 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.840 throw out. By magical beings, I mean Sanna, I mean 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.400 the tooth Fairy. So in the course of this conversation, 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.840 Richard decides that he was going to be the card 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:48.600 holder for magical beings. He wanted to be the tooth 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:53.040 fairy for his daughter. And his daughter, they're telling me 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:58.040 the story that she loses her second tooth, and today, 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.400 I guess what happens. Tooth Fairy doesn't come that night. 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:06.280 So what I love about this story is the way 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:09.240 that Richard and Amy told it to me about what 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:13.280 their communication patterns would have been before a fair play 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:17.280 versus what happened in the moment. So before fair play, 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:19.840 what they told me would have happened because they didn't 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:24.600 have any practice communication practice, they just defaulted into their 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:29.800 old bad patterns would have been that Amy would have 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.880 reverted to her verbal assassin personality, which is what she 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.200 calls herself, or she would have said to Richard, Wow, 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:38.840 you know you've ruined our daughter's life, so that that's 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.800 the end of it. There's no magic. There's no magic 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.480 she will never believe in magic again. And so that's 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.080 all your fault. It's all your fault. And she would 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.040 probably be in therapy the rest of her life because 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.720 the tooth Fairy goes to every other child and not her. 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.520 So she would have gone really big and really mean. 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.040 And how he ruined his daughter's life. And what Richard 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:01.520 said as he laughed and said, yes, that's how Amy 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.880 would have reacted. Richard said, and not only that, but 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:08.880 he would have blamed Amy for not reminding him to 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:14.400 put the dollar under the pillow. So after what happened 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.840 now in the story, since he took the card, he 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.680 owned the mistake right because he had the responsibility. So 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.560 he was able to say, my bad, I totally messed 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.880 up and I can't believe I didn't get the dollar 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:32.400 under the pillow. But not only that, he took action 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.760 to carry through his mistake. He communicated with his daughter 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.200 and said I was able to email tooth Fairy at 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:42.520 gmail dot com, which was true. He did email, and 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:44.960 creepily he got a response, and he had printed out 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.400 the response for his daughter and said, look tooth Fair 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.520 at gmail dot com says she's backlogged. She's having a 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:52.440 you know what I guess would be now called the 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:57.080 supply chain issue with the tooth fairy. And you know what, 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.520 when she comes the second night or the night late, 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:04.680 she brings double the money. And now he says, his 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:06.720 daughter is always asking when the tooth fairy comes, can 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:10.000 she come late? Because I want to get double the money. 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.160 But what I love about that story so much it 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:16.080 shows a pattern of communication that could have been so 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:21.919 toxic and damaging, and instead it was filled with grace 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:27.719 and humor and generosity and a very different type of 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:32.520 family interaction. And so I love that story because it's 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.320 so small, but it really sums up a lot about 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.920 what we're gonna be talking today, how we communicate, how 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:43.279 we check in, how we are allowed to give some 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.760 grace to people in our lives that we love, yet 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:51.839 still hold our firm boundaries and say we expect a 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.359 certain standard of how things should it could be done 0:04:55.880 --> 0:05:00.160 because we've agreed to it together. As you're telling us 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.720 a story about Richard and Amy, I'm thinking about my 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:07.160 own communications snaffoo, which happened just last week. Last week 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:11.880 I had to do a TV interview, my husband had 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:16.000 a meeting, and the Times coincided. In the morning, it's 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.080 a hectic time. People are running around getting ready for 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.440 school drop off. So I said to my husband, this 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.799 was around seven fifteen. I said, can you do school 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:31.880 drop off today? And he said, I have a meeting 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:37.040 that starts at eight thirty. I interpreted that as great, 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.080 plenty of time to do school drop off. So I 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:44.279 started getting ready for my work day. Now it's seven 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:46.440 five and I said, oh, are you going to get 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:48.839 ready to go to school? And he said, but I 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.160 have a meeting at a thirty. I told you that, 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:54.880 And that was kind of an AHA moment for me 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.800 because what he went when he said I have a 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.159 meeting at a thirty was and therefore I cannot do 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:05.560 school drop off. I interpreted it as I have something 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:10.080 at a thirty. It's seven fifteen or seven o'clock. Now easy, 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.600 I can make it work. There's so many layers to that. 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.560 And you know your story about Richard and Amy, the 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.640 conversation that we're going to be having today, my communication 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.960 Snap who really makes me think about the fact that 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:29.080 so much of our communication, very deeply important communication, happens 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.640 often at the most inopportune times that we're not sitting 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.640 down together at the table having a deep conversation when 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.520 we're both fresh. It's often two ships passing in the night. 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:43.080 We're working, we're taking care of kids, we're doing so 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.400 many other things, and you say something and you think 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.839 someone's going to pick up on it, and then they don't, 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:51.480 and it's no one's fault. It's just a shoddy system. 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.320 So it was something important you just said, I want 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:56.120 to pause on it for a minute. And that is 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:02.640 the idea of communication as a what a like you said, 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:04.680 ships passing in a night, It's going to be in 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.760 the moment, feedback in the moment that often can feel 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.880 like our emotions are high and our cognition is low. 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.200 So many of us are communicating that way, and it's 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:17.760 the way we've always done it and with the way 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.360 we will always continue to do it. But what we're 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:25.600 going to be talking about today is communication as a practice. 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:31.120 D D. I interviewed over a thousand people on social 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:36.920 media and text with a survey question that was deliberately vague. 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.600 It asked what is your most important practice? And I 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.600 declined to give more context for when I asked that question, 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:47.320 and so a lot of people said, well, I'm confused 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.840 by your question. But when they finally were prompted to answer, 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:57.720 most people were responding with things like running, meditation or 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.480 taking my dog out for a while. They were equating 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:06.920 practice with something more along the lines of personal self care. 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:11.800 I didn't get one person that said communication is our 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:14.920 most important practice, and listeners were here to tell you 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.840 that communication is your most important practice. And if you 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.440 don't have a partner, with your roommates, with your parents, 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:27.680 with your work colleagues, communication in all contexts will be 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:31.960 your most important practice. And it's a lifelong practice, and 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.360 it's work, and you keep working at it, and it's 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.199 a skill, and it's something that you keep building. And 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:39.760 you know what that reminds me of. It reminds me 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.840 a d D when I sit there for the seventh 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.120 hour on the couch and say to myself, I just 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.400 want to be fit by sitting here on the couch, Like, 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:55.200 why have they not invented away for me to get 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:59.440 cardio and muscle strength by just sitting on the couch, 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:05.360 And sadly it doesn't happen. So just like the muscles 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:09.520 in our body, right, communication is a muscle. Good things 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:12.840 don't come to those who wait good things come to 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:17.120 those who practice. So that's why after the break we 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.839 were so excited to talk to my high school friend 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:23.800 and man with the coolest job I can think of, 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:29.400 conversation designer Daniel Stillman, who's going to teach us much 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:35.319 more about these topics of how to communicate, why to communicate, 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:57.680 and what to communicate. So our guest today is Daniel Stillman. 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.920 He's an executive coach and facilit tator, and Daniel worked 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.480 with clients of all shapes and sizes on leadership and 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.120 team dynamics as well as on product and organizational innovation. 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:13.920 Daniel hosts the Conversation Factory podcast and as author of 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:18.080 Good Talk How to Design Conversations that Matter, one of 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.640 my favorite books and really a handbook for change makers 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:26.319 and innovators. Welcome Daniel, Hey you thanks for having me. 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.560 Not only I think do you have the coolest job 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.680 that exists? But we also know each other from stuyves 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:37.599 in high school. Go peg legs, Go peg Legs exactly. 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.199 But I really wanted to ask you before we start, 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:45.520 how did you become a conversation designer and get the 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:49.040 coolest job of all time? I'll just say that often 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.040 I feel like the title conversation designer just makes people nervous. 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.520 They're like, oh, you're the expert, and I'm like, I'm 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.800 just a fan of conversations. My thesis, and I know 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.240 you've heard me say this before, is we're all conversation designers, 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:06.880 were all designing our conversations at work at home all 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:10.800 the time. I just, um, I'm a nerd. I've become 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.560 a conversation nerd over the last couple of years. I 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.880 mean it's like I I studied design. I said industrial 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:21.800 design in grad school, and years later I heard somebody 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:23.800 put those two words together. I'd gone through all these 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.679 evolutions of different types of design that came through There 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:30.360 was like interaction design, and then experience design and service design, 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.160 and it's like conversation. So I'm like, what does that 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.839 even mean? That was and I thought about it for 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:38.719 a while and I was like, that is very confronting 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:40.560 and weird. And that's actually one of the reasons why 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.640 I started my podcast. Got was like, what does it 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.120 mean to design a conversation? I was just curious. So 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.680 that's how I got that title curiosity. That's my answer. 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:52.520 I love it. I love it, and would you consider 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:58.520 a conversation a subset of communication. That's a really interesting 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.440 question because I think some people would say, like, oh, 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.600 a real conversation is only one where all parties are 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.079 fully engaged in discovering a surprising outcome. I would say 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:14.000 that's a great conversation. I would still say, somebody shouting 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:17.160 at someone else is just a very shriveled version of that. 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.679 It's a one way conversation with a broken power dynamic 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.199 and with somebody who wasn't really clear on how to 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.599 get what they want, and somebody who didn't have a 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:28.679 good conversation with themselves about how to get what they 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.320 want from someone else. So I would say, like, yes, 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:36.400 any time anybody is talking, it is a conversation. One 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.959 way communication is one type of conversation because we always 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.520 want something to happen afterwards, right. I also think that's 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.840 interesting because that's sort of how I link your work 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:52.080 to the active design of a conversation to broader communication, 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.760 because we're all communicating, whether it's dubbing twit clothes and 0:12:55.760 --> 0:13:02.000 someone's pillow right there. Yes, But I think the way 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.240 I'd like to connect your work as a conversation designer 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:09.679 to broader communication is that idea that the intention of 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.120 a conversation means that you can actually have an outcome 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.720 afterwards and behavior that's different than it was in the past. 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.640 What is that Albert Einstein quote? Right? The definition of 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:21.720 stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.960 and expecting a different result. You can get a different 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:29.240 result by listening to Dan still Home and how he 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:33.040 designs conversations. I was very inspired by good talk your book. 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.599 I was very inspired to take part of your learnings 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.920 to my relationship, and I'm going to pass it over 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.920 to Dr A. D. D To ask you some of 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:48.200 that questions that relate to how we bring your work. 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:53.440 Two the hardest domain the home. Wow, And that's what's 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.760 really up. When people say, like, what's what's at stake 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.680 for designing conversations? Off and I talk about business conversations 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:00.880 because you're like, well, we a lot of salaries in 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.320 the room and we just burn them all. But I 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.760 think the home is a much much higher stakes conversation 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:11.880 because that's like our whole lives. Daniel, you asked the 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.480 question in one of your writings what are conversations made of? 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:27.760 And then you said the answers are diverse, voices, ideas, vibes, connections, collaboration, listening, emotions, reactions, gaps, openness, 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.840 and when I think about what makes a happy home, 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.480 or what makes a happy partnership or what makes a 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.680 happy family structure, these are the sorts of things that 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.040 come to mind. I'd left for you to talk a 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:43.320 little bit more about this concept of what our conversations 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:48.200 made of. So two things come up. One is the 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.400 idea of that we can design something comes from this 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:55.800 idea that a superbroad definition of design as intentionality and 0:14:55.960 --> 0:15:01.280 choices that we make. And so designing as intentionality and 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:03.520 purpose means you could just ask like, well, what are 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.160 we optimizing for? And so we could say like, yeah, 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:10.560 I want to optimize for joy or clarity or speed 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:15.080 or consistency. But also noticing what the conversation can be 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.480 made of means how do I affect my choices? And 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.920 so just the idea of the realization that dumping wet 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:25.720 clothes on a pillow is sending a signal that I 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:29.400 am communicating, like, oh, I have a choice about how 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:35.520 I communicate what I communicate with. My mom, who I 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.440 really admire, has this wonderful phrase, which is to start 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.240 as you mean to continue. And I was literally just 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:44.400 talking about this on a coaching call with someone in 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.800 An example I gave is I sometimes get angry with 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.360 something that my wife has done or hasn't done. And 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:56.640 so the question is, will expressing my anger through anger 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:06.600 get me what I want? Now? No? Right? But that 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.240 requires a lot of emotional maturity to realize, like, am 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:12.760 I getting what I want? It also has to do 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.600 with understanding that like, it's really hard to change your 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:20.600 tone of voice and hide the fact that you're angry. 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:22.760 So you actually have to have a conversation with yourself 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.080 before you have a conversation with someone else. Right. So, 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:27.560 this is the thing that came up for me over 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.720 the years of studying conversations is realizing that that before 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.160 we have conversations with other people, we have conversations with 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.360 ourselves about like, well, I don't deserve that? How dare they? 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:40.520 I can't believe I always they never write all of 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:44.440 those things that are our reactions. It's very hard to 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:48.800 change your first reaction. This is mental processing and saying, well, 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:50.880 what do I really want out of this? Do I 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.480 want to share my anger with them so that they 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:57.000 feel my pain as I'm feeling it. Do I want 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.760 to just pass it along and say, like here, now 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:02.920 you are angry too. Where do I want to have 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:06.560 a peaceable relationship? Do I want to have a tidy 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:10.240 year home? Start as I mean to continue? Right. To 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:14.359 think that sending an angry signal in an angry way 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:19.640 will result in a peaceable home is just not understanding 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.399 how physics works. For every action, there's an equal and 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.600 opposite reaction. So we're just talking about the physics conversations here. 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.040 So you've got to do that internal processing to say, well, 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:29.480 what do I want? What do I need? What do 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:31.880 I think is possible here? Like, what will help me 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.040 communicate more clearly with them? What do they want, what 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.560 do they need? What do they expect? I need to 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.680 pause in the importance of what you're saying, because we 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:47.200 literally prep for everything. We prep for a five K race, 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.960 as we prep for parenteager conferences for our kids, or 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:52.560 at least we have to find out what the zoom 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:56.200 link is that never seems to work. We prep for dinner, 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.520 But ironically, the thing that's probably the most portant thing 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:04.600 to prep for in our homes our conversations with our 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:08.919 partners are children. The stakeholders around us that make our 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:15.080 home organization function. We give literally no forethought too. Yeah, 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.840 there's no prep We're shooting from the hip based on 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:21.720 all of our habits. And so this is the other 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.520 aspect of conversation design is understanding either I'm going to 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.960 run with habit or I'm going to apply some conscious 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:31.600 intention to it. But there's another piece to it, which 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.520 is our partners are also coming with their own designs 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.960 and their own expectations. And that's why having the conversation 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:41.720 about the type of conversation you're going to have. So 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:43.640 if you said, like, honey, I'd like to yell at 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.800 you for five or six minutes brate you and then 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.840 have makeup sex. Does that sound cool for you? And 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.320 then they'll be like, yeah, let her loose if that's 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.280 what you need. But if this is designing the conversation 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:02.280 for someone versus and for yourself or designing with so 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:04.520 like what do they want, honey, I'd like to talk 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:10.080 about this? The idea that we can't propose. We proposed marriage, right, 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.920 but we can't propose like here's my agenda for this evening, right? 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.840 And I get it. There's this infantilization of ourselves and 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:21.760 others where we just really want our loved ones are 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:26.760 significant other just to read our minds, to know exactly 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.280 what we want and need. And the fact that I 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.000 should have to explain myself and to be as prepared 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.919 for a conversation at home is I have to be 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:42.080 at work seems laborious, and yet I think it doesn't 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.520 have to be that hard. It's really just saying, hey, 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:46.960 this is what I want. What do you want? Let's 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.240 talk about how this is going to go. I want 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.080 to just ask you why, and I tell you what 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:54.040 I did with Seth because earlier you were talking about 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:58.600 this conversation operating system, which is really your elements of 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:04.439 conversation and within history or the length or the life 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:08.000 of a conversation. The hardest part I saw in my 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:13.560 research was the invitation when I asked, very very very 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:18.080 diverse lived experiences in seventeen countries, how do you communicate 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.399 about domestic life? And I'll give you an example. I 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:25.520 went onto a Facebook group that somebody told me about. 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.760 It's called the Reason I Hate my husband and kids 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:34.600 during COVID, and in this Spacebook group that someone told 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:39.200 me about, I was my typical lurker watching people post 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:44.040 and one woman posts, if my husband dies during COVID, 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.760 it won't be because of the disease, It'll be because 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:52.000 of me. So that was a very provocative post. So 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.960 I d m her and I said, I'm a researcher 0:20:55.800 --> 0:21:00.879 on the couples dynamics and conversation and community ptation. I 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.480 would love to know how you typically communicate about domestic 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:09.840 life with your partner. And she wrote back earnestly, I 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:14.879 don't communicate about domestic life. It's too triggering. This is 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:19.240 my safe space. So I want to just reflect on 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:22.320 us for a second as we're talking about communication and conversation. 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:26.800 That probably threatening to murder her partner in front of 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:32.040 thousand strangers felt more safe to her than directly inviting 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:36.800 her partner into a conversation about what is troubling her 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.440 about the dynamics in her home. So why why is that? 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:44.960 There's so many layers to that. Here's the thing. Most 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.960 negotiations stop on the internal conversation before they even start 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.359 because there's this term called aspiration value. We ask for 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:55.240 what we believe we deserve. There's all these studies that 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.040 show that people won't ask for a raise or A 0:21:58.040 --> 0:21:59.760 lot of women won't apply for a job unless they 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:02.560 feel like they meet of the things that they're asking 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.600 for it, whereas for whatever reason, men will apply for 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:10.520 that job at of qualifications. So take that with as 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:12.119 many grains of salt as you want. I don't know 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.439 why this is, but it is very possible that people 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:19.200 look at the history of their relationship and say, well, 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:23.119 there's just no point, and so the conversation stops before 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:26.040 it starts. But as you say, with invitation, the question 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:29.600 is how can I bring them to the table. It 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:34.280 is my job because I want it to find a 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:37.800 way to bring them to the table, to invite them, 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:41.080 to appeal to their sense of play, to their sense 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:46.320 of purpose or potential. Right, three ways to motivate someone 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:49.600 plays the most motivational, which is why I think fair 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:53.480 play is a really powerful approach. Right. It's a playful 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:55.679 approach to say like, hey, let's put it all on 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:57.440 the table, let's talk about it. But there's also a purpose, 0:22:57.480 --> 0:22:58.960 which is say like, well, what kind of a marriage 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:02.680 do you want to have? Right, that's purpose and potentially, 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:04.639 you know, five ten years down the road, like how 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:07.880 do you think we should be interacting? Right? So that's invitation, 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:11.359 and we talked about what our conversations made out of 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:16.760 and how to think about them more intentionally. One of 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.800 the things that's really challenging is that we are really 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:22.600 good at being efficient. We jump to conclusions about what 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:25.280 somebody thinks. We're trying to guess what somebody's thinking all 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:28.439 the time, what they mean. But the truth is we 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:31.320 can talk at about twenty words per minute, but we 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.800 think at four thousand words per minute, which means there 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:37.240 will always be more to say than we can say, 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.359 which means it's always a good idea to slow down 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:44.960 the conversation and ask people tell me more, rather than 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:48.040 going to jump the conclusion and say he's always like 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:49.960 this or she's always like that, Say well, what do 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:51.880 you mean by that? Well, what did you mean to say? 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:55.240 Tell me more about that. We expect a two hundred 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:58.520 millisecond gap between when we say something and when we 0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:01.040 expect a response. If somebody weights longer, we think they're 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.119 overthinking it, and yet it actually takes around six hundred 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:07.199 milliseconds or somebody to cook up a reasonable answer for 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:09.879 their brains to catch up. There's research on that. I 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:13.520 think it's Tanya stiffers out of the Max Plank Institute. 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:16.199 Like you, people need time to think, and yet we're like, 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:19.000 tell me, tell me right now. And that's because we 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:21.960 get heated because there's so much at stake, and so 0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:24.800 slowing things down is always going to be a great 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:30.040 way to design a more safe, an effective home conversation. 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:33.720 This leads me to this wonderful thing that you said. 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:37.760 Curiosity smells a lot like empathy. Many folks will tell 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:41.840 you that empathy is the secret key to transforming conversations, 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:44.840 and they're right, but it's hard to empathize with someone 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:47.960 you truly disagree with, and it's really hard to fake. 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:53.600 Curiosity is easier to fake and just as effective. Active 0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:57.600