1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: And I'm doctor add Neru Kar, a physician and medical 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: mental health, and burnout. We're here to peel back to 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: layers around why it's so easy for society to guard 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: men's time as if it's diamonds and to treat women's 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: time as if it's infinite like sands. And whether you 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: are partnered with or without children, or in a career 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: where you want more boundaries, this is the place for 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: you for all family structures. We're here to take a 13 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: time out to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: our time. So d D, I'm gonna tell you a 15 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: story today about communication. I love your stories. It's a 16 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: small story, but it's a couple that I really love 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: because they decided to implement and play fair play during 18 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: the pandemic and in the process of having a communication 19 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: check in together around what was valuable to them. The 20 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: couple I'll call them Richard and Amy decided that they 21 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: really cared and they wanted to keep magical beings in 22 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: their deck. That was something they were not going to 23 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: throw out. By magical beings, I mean Sanna, I mean 24 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: the tooth Fairy. So in the course of this conversation, 25 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: Richard decides that he was going to be the card 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: holder for magical beings. He wanted to be the tooth 27 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: fairy for his daughter. And his daughter, they're telling me 28 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: the story that she loses her second tooth, and today, 29 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: I guess what happens. Tooth Fairy doesn't come that night. 30 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: So what I love about this story is the way 31 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: that Richard and Amy told it to me about what 32 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: their communication patterns would have been before a fair play 33 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: versus what happened in the moment. So before fair play, 34 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: what they told me would have happened because they didn't 35 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: have any practice communication practice, they just defaulted into their 36 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: old bad patterns would have been that Amy would have 37 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: reverted to her verbal assassin personality, which is what she 38 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: calls herself, or she would have said to Richard, Wow, 39 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: you know you've ruined our daughter's life, so that that's 40 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: the end of it. There's no magic. There's no magic 41 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: she will never believe in magic again. And so that's 42 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: all your fault. It's all your fault. And she would 43 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: probably be in therapy the rest of her life because 44 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: the tooth Fairy goes to every other child and not her. 45 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: So she would have gone really big and really mean. 46 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: And how he ruined his daughter's life. And what Richard 47 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: said as he laughed and said, yes, that's how Amy 48 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: would have reacted. Richard said, and not only that, but 49 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: he would have blamed Amy for not reminding him to 50 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: put the dollar under the pillow. So after what happened 51 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: now in the story, since he took the card, he 52 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: owned the mistake right because he had the responsibility. So 53 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: he was able to say, my bad, I totally messed 54 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: up and I can't believe I didn't get the dollar 55 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: under the pillow. But not only that, he took action 56 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: to carry through his mistake. He communicated with his daughter 57 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: and said I was able to email tooth Fairy at 58 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: gmail dot com, which was true. He did email, and 59 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: creepily he got a response, and he had printed out 60 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: the response for his daughter and said, look tooth Fair 61 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com says she's backlogged. She's having a 62 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: you know what I guess would be now called the 63 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: supply chain issue with the tooth fairy. And you know what, 64 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: when she comes the second night or the night late, 65 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: she brings double the money. And now he says, his 66 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: daughter is always asking when the tooth fairy comes, can 67 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: she come late? Because I want to get double the money. 68 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: But what I love about that story so much it 69 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: shows a pattern of communication that could have been so 70 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: toxic and damaging, and instead it was filled with grace 71 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: and humor and generosity and a very different type of 72 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: family interaction. And so I love that story because it's 73 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: so small, but it really sums up a lot about 74 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: what we're gonna be talking today, how we communicate, how 75 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: we check in, how we are allowed to give some 76 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: grace to people in our lives that we love, yet 77 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: still hold our firm boundaries and say we expect a 78 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: certain standard of how things should it could be done 79 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: because we've agreed to it together. As you're telling us 80 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: a story about Richard and Amy, I'm thinking about my 81 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: own communications snaffoo, which happened just last week. Last week 82 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: I had to do a TV interview, my husband had 83 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: a meeting, and the Times coincided. In the morning, it's 84 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: a hectic time. People are running around getting ready for 85 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: school drop off. So I said to my husband, this 86 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,799 Speaker 1: was around seven fifteen. I said, can you do school 87 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: drop off today? And he said, I have a meeting 88 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: that starts at eight thirty. I interpreted that as great, 89 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: plenty of time to do school drop off. So I 90 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: started getting ready for my work day. Now it's seven 91 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: five and I said, oh, are you going to get 92 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: ready to go to school? And he said, but I 93 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: have a meeting at a thirty. I told you that, 94 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: And that was kind of an AHA moment for me 95 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: because what he went when he said I have a 96 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: meeting at a thirty was and therefore I cannot do 97 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: school drop off. I interpreted it as I have something 98 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: at a thirty. It's seven fifteen or seven o'clock. Now easy, 99 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: I can make it work. There's so many layers to that. 100 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: And you know your story about Richard and Amy, the 101 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: conversation that we're going to be having today, my communication 102 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: Snap who really makes me think about the fact that 103 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: so much of our communication, very deeply important communication, happens 104 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: often at the most inopportune times that we're not sitting 105 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: down together at the table having a deep conversation when 106 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: we're both fresh. It's often two ships passing in the night. 107 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: We're working, we're taking care of kids, we're doing so 108 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: many other things, and you say something and you think 109 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: someone's going to pick up on it, and then they don't, 110 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: and it's no one's fault. It's just a shoddy system. 111 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: So it was something important you just said, I want 112 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: to pause on it for a minute. And that is 113 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: the idea of communication as a what a like you said, 114 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: ships passing in a night, It's going to be in 115 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: the moment, feedback in the moment that often can feel 116 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: like our emotions are high and our cognition is low. 117 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: So many of us are communicating that way, and it's 118 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: the way we've always done it and with the way 119 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: we will always continue to do it. But what we're 120 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: going to be talking about today is communication as a practice. 121 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: D D. I interviewed over a thousand people on social 122 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: media and text with a survey question that was deliberately vague. 123 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: It asked what is your most important practice? And I 124 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: declined to give more context for when I asked that question, 125 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: and so a lot of people said, well, I'm confused 126 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: by your question. But when they finally were prompted to answer, 127 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: most people were responding with things like running, meditation or 128 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: taking my dog out for a while. They were equating 129 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: practice with something more along the lines of personal self care. 130 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: I didn't get one person that said communication is our 131 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: most important practice, and listeners were here to tell you 132 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: that communication is your most important practice. And if you 133 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: don't have a partner, with your roommates, with your parents, 134 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: with your work colleagues, communication in all contexts will be 135 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: your most important practice. And it's a lifelong practice, and 136 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: it's work, and you keep working at it, and it's 137 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: a skill, and it's something that you keep building. And 138 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: you know what that reminds me of. It reminds me 139 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: a d D when I sit there for the seventh 140 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: hour on the couch and say to myself, I just 141 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: want to be fit by sitting here on the couch, Like, 142 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: why have they not invented away for me to get 143 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: cardio and muscle strength by just sitting on the couch, 144 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: And sadly it doesn't happen. So just like the muscles 145 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: in our body, right, communication is a muscle. Good things 146 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: don't come to those who wait good things come to 147 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: those who practice. So that's why after the break we 148 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: were so excited to talk to my high school friend 149 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: and man with the coolest job I can think of, 150 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: conversation designer Daniel Stillman, who's going to teach us much 151 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 1: more about these topics of how to communicate, why to communicate, 152 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: and what to communicate. So our guest today is Daniel Stillman. 153 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: He's an executive coach and facilit tator, and Daniel worked 154 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: with clients of all shapes and sizes on leadership and 155 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: team dynamics as well as on product and organizational innovation. 156 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: Daniel hosts the Conversation Factory podcast and as author of 157 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: Good Talk How to Design Conversations that Matter, one of 158 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: my favorite books and really a handbook for change makers 159 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: and innovators. Welcome Daniel, Hey you thanks for having me. 160 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: Not only I think do you have the coolest job 161 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: that exists? But we also know each other from stuyves 162 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,599 Speaker 1: in high school. Go peg legs, Go peg Legs exactly. 163 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: But I really wanted to ask you before we start, 164 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: how did you become a conversation designer and get the 165 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: coolest job of all time? I'll just say that often 166 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: I feel like the title conversation designer just makes people nervous. 167 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: They're like, oh, you're the expert, and I'm like, I'm 168 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: just a fan of conversations. My thesis, and I know 169 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: you've heard me say this before, is we're all conversation designers, 170 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: were all designing our conversations at work at home all 171 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: the time. I just, um, I'm a nerd. I've become 172 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: a conversation nerd over the last couple of years. I 173 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: mean it's like I I studied design. I said industrial 174 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: design in grad school, and years later I heard somebody 175 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: put those two words together. I'd gone through all these 176 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: evolutions of different types of design that came through There 177 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: was like interaction design, and then experience design and service design, 178 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: and it's like conversation. So I'm like, what does that 179 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: even mean? That was and I thought about it for 180 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 1: a while and I was like, that is very confronting 181 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: and weird. And that's actually one of the reasons why 182 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: I started my podcast. Got was like, what does it 183 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: mean to design a conversation? I was just curious. So 184 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: that's how I got that title curiosity. That's my answer. 185 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: I love it. I love it, and would you consider 186 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: a conversation a subset of communication. That's a really interesting 187 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: question because I think some people would say, like, oh, 188 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: a real conversation is only one where all parties are 189 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: fully engaged in discovering a surprising outcome. I would say 190 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: that's a great conversation. I would still say, somebody shouting 191 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: at someone else is just a very shriveled version of that. 192 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: It's a one way conversation with a broken power dynamic 193 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: and with somebody who wasn't really clear on how to 194 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,599 Speaker 1: get what they want, and somebody who didn't have a 195 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: good conversation with themselves about how to get what they 196 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: want from someone else. So I would say, like, yes, 197 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: any time anybody is talking, it is a conversation. One 198 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: way communication is one type of conversation because we always 199 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: want something to happen afterwards, right. I also think that's 200 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: interesting because that's sort of how I link your work 201 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: to the active design of a conversation to broader communication, 202 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: because we're all communicating, whether it's dubbing twit clothes and 203 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: someone's pillow right there. Yes, But I think the way 204 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: I'd like to connect your work as a conversation designer 205 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 1: to broader communication is that idea that the intention of 206 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: a conversation means that you can actually have an outcome 207 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: afterwards and behavior that's different than it was in the past. 208 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: What is that Albert Einstein quote? Right? The definition of 209 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again 210 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: and expecting a different result. You can get a different 211 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: result by listening to Dan still Home and how he 212 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: designs conversations. I was very inspired by good talk your book. 213 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,599 Speaker 1: I was very inspired to take part of your learnings 214 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: to my relationship, and I'm going to pass it over 215 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: to Dr A. D. D To ask you some of 216 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: that questions that relate to how we bring your work. 217 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: Two the hardest domain the home. Wow, And that's what's 218 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: really up. When people say, like, what's what's at stake 219 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: for designing conversations? Off and I talk about business conversations 220 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: because you're like, well, we a lot of salaries in 221 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: the room and we just burn them all. But I 222 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: think the home is a much much higher stakes conversation 223 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: because that's like our whole lives. Daniel, you asked the 224 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: question in one of your writings what are conversations made of? 225 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: And then you said the answers are diverse, voices, ideas, vibes, connections, collaboration, listening, emotions, reactions, gaps, openness, 226 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: and when I think about what makes a happy home, 227 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: or what makes a happy partnership or what makes a 228 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: happy family structure, these are the sorts of things that 229 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: come to mind. I'd left for you to talk a 230 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: little bit more about this concept of what our conversations 231 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: made of. So two things come up. One is the 232 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: idea of that we can design something comes from this 233 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: idea that a superbroad definition of design as intentionality and 234 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: choices that we make. And so designing as intentionality and 235 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: purpose means you could just ask like, well, what are 236 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: we optimizing for? And so we could say like, yeah, 237 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: I want to optimize for joy or clarity or speed 238 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: or consistency. But also noticing what the conversation can be 239 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: made of means how do I affect my choices? And 240 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: so just the idea of the realization that dumping wet 241 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: clothes on a pillow is sending a signal that I 242 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: am communicating, like, oh, I have a choice about how 243 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: I communicate what I communicate with. My mom, who I 244 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: really admire, has this wonderful phrase, which is to start 245 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: as you mean to continue. And I was literally just 246 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: talking about this on a coaching call with someone in 247 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: An example I gave is I sometimes get angry with 248 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: something that my wife has done or hasn't done. And 249 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: so the question is, will expressing my anger through anger 250 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: get me what I want? Now? No? Right? But that 251 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: requires a lot of emotional maturity to realize, like, am 252 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: I getting what I want? It also has to do 253 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: with understanding that like, it's really hard to change your 254 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: tone of voice and hide the fact that you're angry. 255 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: So you actually have to have a conversation with yourself 256 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: before you have a conversation with someone else. Right. So, 257 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: this is the thing that came up for me over 258 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: the years of studying conversations is realizing that that before 259 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: we have conversations with other people, we have conversations with 260 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: ourselves about like, well, I don't deserve that? How dare they? 261 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: I can't believe I always they never write all of 262 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: those things that are our reactions. It's very hard to 263 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: change your first reaction. This is mental processing and saying, well, 264 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: what do I really want out of this? Do I 265 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: want to share my anger with them so that they 266 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: feel my pain as I'm feeling it. Do I want 267 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: to just pass it along and say, like here, now 268 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: you are angry too. Where do I want to have 269 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: a peaceable relationship? Do I want to have a tidy 270 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: year home? Start as I mean to continue? Right. To 271 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: think that sending an angry signal in an angry way 272 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 1: will result in a peaceable home is just not understanding 273 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: how physics works. For every action, there's an equal and 274 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: opposite reaction. So we're just talking about the physics conversations here. 275 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: So you've got to do that internal processing to say, well, 276 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: what do I want? What do I need? What do 277 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: I think is possible here? Like, what will help me 278 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: communicate more clearly with them? What do they want, what 279 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: do they need? What do they expect? I need to 280 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: pause in the importance of what you're saying, because we 281 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: literally prep for everything. We prep for a five K race, 282 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: as we prep for parenteager conferences for our kids, or 283 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: at least we have to find out what the zoom 284 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: link is that never seems to work. We prep for dinner, 285 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: But ironically, the thing that's probably the most portant thing 286 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: to prep for in our homes our conversations with our 287 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: partners are children. The stakeholders around us that make our 288 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: home organization function. We give literally no forethought too. Yeah, 289 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: there's no prep We're shooting from the hip based on 290 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: all of our habits. And so this is the other 291 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: aspect of conversation design is understanding either I'm going to 292 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: run with habit or I'm going to apply some conscious 293 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: intention to it. But there's another piece to it, which 294 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: is our partners are also coming with their own designs 295 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: and their own expectations. And that's why having the conversation 296 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: about the type of conversation you're going to have. So 297 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: if you said, like, honey, I'd like to yell at 298 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: you for five or six minutes brate you and then 299 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: have makeup sex. Does that sound cool for you? And 300 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: then they'll be like, yeah, let her loose if that's 301 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: what you need. But if this is designing the conversation 302 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: for someone versus and for yourself or designing with so 303 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: like what do they want, honey, I'd like to talk 304 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: about this? The idea that we can't propose. We proposed marriage, right, 305 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: but we can't propose like here's my agenda for this evening, right? 306 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: And I get it. There's this infantilization of ourselves and 307 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: others where we just really want our loved ones are 308 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: significant other just to read our minds, to know exactly 309 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: what we want and need. And the fact that I 310 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: should have to explain myself and to be as prepared 311 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: for a conversation at home is I have to be 312 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: at work seems laborious, and yet I think it doesn't 313 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: have to be that hard. It's really just saying, hey, 314 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: this is what I want. What do you want? Let's 315 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: talk about how this is going to go. I want 316 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: to just ask you why, and I tell you what 317 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: I did with Seth because earlier you were talking about 318 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: this conversation operating system, which is really your elements of 319 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: conversation and within history or the length or the life 320 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: of a conversation. The hardest part I saw in my 321 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: research was the invitation when I asked, very very very 322 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: diverse lived experiences in seventeen countries, how do you communicate 323 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: about domestic life? And I'll give you an example. I 324 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: went onto a Facebook group that somebody told me about. 325 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: It's called the Reason I Hate my husband and kids 326 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: during COVID, and in this Spacebook group that someone told 327 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: me about, I was my typical lurker watching people post 328 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: and one woman posts, if my husband dies during COVID, 329 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: it won't be because of the disease, It'll be because 330 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: of me. So that was a very provocative post. So 331 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: I d m her and I said, I'm a researcher 332 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: on the couples dynamics and conversation and community ptation. I 333 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: would love to know how you typically communicate about domestic 334 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: life with your partner. And she wrote back earnestly, I 335 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: don't communicate about domestic life. It's too triggering. This is 336 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: my safe space. So I want to just reflect on 337 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: us for a second as we're talking about communication and conversation. 338 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: That probably threatening to murder her partner in front of 339 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: thousand strangers felt more safe to her than directly inviting 340 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: her partner into a conversation about what is troubling her 341 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: about the dynamics in her home. So why why is that? 342 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: There's so many layers to that. Here's the thing. Most 343 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: negotiations stop on the internal conversation before they even start 344 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: because there's this term called aspiration value. We ask for 345 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: what we believe we deserve. There's all these studies that 346 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: show that people won't ask for a raise or A 347 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: lot of women won't apply for a job unless they 348 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: feel like they meet of the things that they're asking 349 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: for it, whereas for whatever reason, men will apply for 350 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: that job at of qualifications. So take that with as 351 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: many grains of salt as you want. I don't know 352 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: why this is, but it is very possible that people 353 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: look at the history of their relationship and say, well, 354 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: there's just no point, and so the conversation stops before 355 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: it starts. But as you say, with invitation, the question 356 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: is how can I bring them to the table. It 357 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: is my job because I want it to find a 358 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: way to bring them to the table, to invite them, 359 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: to appeal to their sense of play, to their sense 360 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: of purpose or potential. Right, three ways to motivate someone 361 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: plays the most motivational, which is why I think fair 362 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: play is a really powerful approach. Right. It's a playful 363 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: approach to say like, hey, let's put it all on 364 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: the table, let's talk about it. But there's also a purpose, 365 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: which is say like, well, what kind of a marriage 366 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: do you want to have? Right, that's purpose and potentially, 367 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: you know, five ten years down the road, like how 368 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: do you think we should be interacting? Right? So that's invitation, 369 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: and we talked about what our conversations made out of 370 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: and how to think about them more intentionally. One of 371 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: the things that's really challenging is that we are really 372 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: good at being efficient. We jump to conclusions about what 373 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: somebody thinks. We're trying to guess what somebody's thinking all 374 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: the time, what they mean. But the truth is we 375 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: can talk at about twenty words per minute, but we 376 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: think at four thousand words per minute, which means there 377 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: will always be more to say than we can say, 378 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: which means it's always a good idea to slow down 379 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: the conversation and ask people tell me more, rather than 380 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: going to jump the conclusion and say he's always like 381 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: this or she's always like that, Say well, what do 382 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: you mean by that? Well, what did you mean to say? 383 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: Tell me more about that. We expect a two hundred 384 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: millisecond gap between when we say something and when we 385 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: expect a response. If somebody weights longer, we think they're 386 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: overthinking it, and yet it actually takes around six hundred 387 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: milliseconds or somebody to cook up a reasonable answer for 388 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: their brains to catch up. There's research on that. I 389 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: think it's Tanya stiffers out of the Max Plank Institute. 390 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: Like you, people need time to think, and yet we're like, 391 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: tell me, tell me right now. And that's because we 392 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: get heated because there's so much at stake, and so 393 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: slowing things down is always going to be a great 394 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: way to design a more safe, an effective home conversation. 395 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: This leads me to this wonderful thing that you said. 396 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: Curiosity smells a lot like empathy. Many folks will tell 397 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: you that empathy is the secret key to transforming conversations, 398 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: and they're right, but it's hard to empathize with someone 399 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: you truly disagree with, and it's really hard to fake. 400 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: Curiosity is easier to fake and just as effective. Active 401 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: listening is the key. I love it. Yeah, thank you 402 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 1: for I think it is hard to fake. It's hard 403 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: to veil your distaste for someone. But if you can 404 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: just squeeze yourself and say, like, you know, it sounds 405 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: like you said this, but I'm guessing that that's not 406 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,239 Speaker 1: really what you meant to say. So you know, now 407 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: that you've heard me say what you said, tell me 408 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: what you really think. Now I'm on the edge of 409 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: blowing a fuse, but I'm slowing it down a little 410 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: bit by using that ace In the whole of active listening, 411 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: it's just a safe place where it's like, I think 412 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: I heard you say this? Is that everything was there? More? 413 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: Do you want to say about that? Tell me more, 414 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: because otherwise I'm going to divorce you. Right, don't say that? 415 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: Did you? Did you actively threatened to murder me in 416 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: front of strangers? Meant to say? I mean the flip 417 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: side of this, If we're talking about a relationship between 418 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: people who identify as male and people who identify as female, 419 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: there's some roles that we slip into. And even in 420 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: a relationship where maybe both people don't identify as anything 421 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: or however they identify, people take up a certain role, 422 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: like somebody's going to be more invested in planning and logistics, 423 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: and somebody's gonna be like, well, why can't we just 424 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: I can't we just let it roll? My wife and 425 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: I had a whole conversation about like not planning our honeymoon. 426 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: It was hilarious. I was like, wait, so let me 427 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: understand this correctly. I really want to understand what your 428 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: ideal vacation is because I'm interested in I love her, 429 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: so when I over plan, or as I would put 430 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: it plan. She's like, where is the space for you know, 431 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,239 Speaker 1: exploration and improvisation. I'm like, okay, well, like tell me 432 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: your favorite vacations that you've taken with your family, and 433 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: she laid out a couple and I was like, okay, 434 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: Like so help me understand. I got curious and she 435 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: was able to tell me. So there's always gonna be 436 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 1: somebody who's too much or not enough of whatever it is, 437 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: and somebody who's taking an active role in some he 438 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: was taking a passive role, somebody who thinks that things 439 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: aren't fair, and that person's job is to redesign the 440 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: conversation as they feel like they can't. I love that. 441 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: I need to be labor your three p s again 442 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: because I want to go back to the invitation, because 443 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: I do think that it is the hardest barrier i've 444 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: seen to fair play. When people get there, you know, 445 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: it's like anything right where anticipation is worse than the 446 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: thing itself, Like, wow, this is actually really fun to 447 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: talk about who planned holidays growing up, or what we 448 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: both think about discipline and screen time. Once people are 449 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: at the table, I've found that the conversations usually go 450 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: much better than people think. It's this huge barrier to 451 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: getting there. And so could you go back to play 452 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: purpose and potential and give us three openers for people 453 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: if they do want to have a conversation. We talked 454 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: one of our guests. I had a viral article that 455 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: was called my wife left me because I left dishes 456 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: by the side of the sink. So say that couple 457 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: is talking about trying to get those dishes off the 458 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: side of the sink, washed and in the proper home. Um, 459 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: what would three invitations be to get somebody to the table. 460 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: I'll see what I can do, but I want to 461 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: just pull back a little bit and say that play 462 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: purpose and potential that comes from this research on intrinsic 463 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: versus extrinsic motivation. Extrinsic motivators are things like emotional pressure, 464 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:34,199 Speaker 1: economic pressure, and inertia. Those are the anti patterns. So 465 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: if we're just to say, like emotional pressure, like, how 466 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: would you invite someone to engage in a conversation using 467 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: emotional pressure, I will never speak to you again unless 468 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: you sit down, never speak to you again. Right, Like, 469 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: if we can't work this out, I just don't see 470 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: us being able to go to that party next week, 471 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: or go to your parents for Thanksgiving. That is emotional 472 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: pressure and that is fed up, right, But that is 473 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: not ativating. You're trying to use fear. That's like reading 474 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: Machiavelli and thinking it's a guide book. But about one 475 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: woman who said, if you don't start cleaning up every 476 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: single time that you don't do it, I'm taking a 477 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: picture of it. I'm posting it to my Instagram. Right. 478 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: That's assuming that shame is a motivator for them, which 479 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: for some people it is, right, but it's a very 480 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: poor way of sustained motivation. And just to I go 481 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: into the worst of them, which is inertia, which is like, 482 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: but you've always done it this way, how could you 483 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: possibly ask to change the way we've been doing things 484 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: for years? And to appear which is like what will 485 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: we just do it this way? And so recently, actually, 486 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: I'll tell you a personal story. I cook a lot. 487 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: I enjoy cooking. Chopping vegetables is one way for me 488 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: to relieve, you know, anxiety. I'm a very natural fast 489 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: chef and she is less so. So when she was 490 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: in grad school and in school full time, I was like, 491 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: I gotta cook, so there's enough food in the house 492 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: so my wife doesn't die and she can go through 493 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: grad school. Like I wanted to make sure there was 494 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: just a cast role that she could just heat up 495 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: all the time. And I realized we're not in that 496 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: situation anymore. She's been her a new job for two years. 497 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: I'm very proud of everything she's done. And so I 498 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: said to her, I was like, hey, do you think 499 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: maybe you could do dinner one night a week, like 500 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: Monday nights I have my men's group and we only 501 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: have like two hours. And I was like, you know, 502 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: maybe you could do dinner like that one night, and 503 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: she was like yeah. So there's another aspect of invitation. 504 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: There's play, purpose and potential, but there's also foot in 505 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: the door, which is Robert Caldini right. He talks about 506 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: the like getting your foot in the door, Like just 507 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: a penny would help. Anything you could do would be great. 508 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: So doing a very very small ask is Another way 509 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: to increase the intrinsic motivation is by reducing the barrier. 510 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: It's like, could you watch that one one fork once 511 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: a week? Right? Resorting to a playful approach means lowering 512 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: the stakes. How I'd love to talk about the dishes. 513 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: I'm feeling anxious about it. That's owning your own experience. 514 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: It seems just totally innocuous. Making it this huge thing 515 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: and bringing the whole story makes it very hard. You're 516 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: not appealing to play or purpose or potential. This is hard, 517 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: and that means you have to go to your own therapy, 518 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: have that into a conversation with yourself to deal with 519 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,719 Speaker 1: it's always been like this or you never that that 520 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: actually doesn't bring somebody to the table. I think it's 521 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: much much more easy to say like hey, and anything 522 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: else after that. Do you think, Daniel, that this is 523 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: a personality trait of yours or do you feel like 524 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: this is something that can be taught. I think empathy 525 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: and curiosity can be learned if somebody is willing to 526 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: be curious, if somebody wants things to be better, and 527 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: if we're willing to ask for more than we think 528 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: is pop stable. This goes back to the question of 529 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: aspiration value. If you think there's no point in bringing 530 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: it up, there isn't. If you're going to come with anger, 531 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,239 Speaker 1: expecting it to become peaceable seems absurd to me. So 532 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: finding a playful way to appeal to what is playful 533 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: in your partner means you have to empathize with them 534 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: and understand what motivates them, what kind of potential do 535 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: they want, what is their ideal situation. I think if 536 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: you can process those emotions and also empathize with your 537 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: partner and think about what motivates them, I can tell 538 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: my wife I'm angry without without being angry. Can I 539 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: tell you why I love this so much? Because um 540 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: of a poll that I did during COVID, which was 541 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: I've said this to you, which is sort of tongue 542 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: in cheek where I've been servying people. Now, I'm over 543 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: a thousand where I've asked people what is their most 544 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: important practice, but not not one person now, and over 545 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: a thousand people when I've asked it vaguely have thought 546 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: of communication in that way is their most important practice. 547 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: But you have shown us today how you can begin 548 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: that practice in such a thoughtful, intentional way. And I 549 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: hope you'll come back as a part two for how 550 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: to continue the conversation. But this is the hardest part, 551 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: getting to that table with play purpose and potential, and 552 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: so you've helped us unpack that. Couple that with a 553 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: splash of intrinsic motivation, and we're going to have much 554 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: better conversations. God willing, good luck out there. Hi, it's 555 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: me Eve. Are you a therapist, counselor coach or nutritionists 556 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: that has thought about introducing the fair Play System directly 557 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: to your clients? Well, now you can come and roll 558 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: in the fair Play Method, a new online program that 559 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: provides with hands on training, a ton of valuable resources, 560 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: and a community of certified professionals who are all part 561 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: of a greater cultural movement for systemic change. Learn more 562 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 1: about how you can help your clients shift the domestic 563 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: workload in their own homes towards more equity, more fairness, 564 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 1: and greater connectivity. Visit fair Play method dot com. So, 565 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: as you may know, now, every episode of this podcast 566 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: ends with an action item for you are listeners that 567 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,879 Speaker 1: we call a time out. This is really a time 568 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: for you to focus on yourself and reflect on what 569 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: you're hearing today. And we're starting the conversation first with 570 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: ourselves and then ultimately with those around us. Today we're 571 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: thinking about how we communicate. That's our time out for today, 572 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: before we think about how we interact with others. It's 573 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: very helpful to reflect on our vulnerable cities are strength, 574 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: what we can do better, what we don't do as well. 575 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: So today's time out is an exercise that I'd like 576 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: to refer to as the reverse newly Wed game, and 577 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna play it with you a d D for 578 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: our listeners. And you can do it by listening with 579 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: us and thinking along about how you would track as 580 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: a d D answers. So reverse newly what game? Communication? One? 581 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: Oh one quiz that we're gonna be doing today that 582 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: comes out of fair Play the book. It's in chapter 583 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: five and we call it the communication vulnerability quiz. So 584 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: how would Mac, your partner, describe you in a moment 585 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 1: when emotion is high and cognition is low in your household? 586 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 1: So think back to a time when I don't know, 587 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: a dirty stock was on the floor, or you stepped 588 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: on a lego or uh, dinner wasn't ready when you 589 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: came in the door, something where maybe your emotion was 590 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: high and your cognity asution was low. I want to 591 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: know if Mac would one say that you're long winded, 592 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: you're talking to no one's listening. Two that you use 593 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: sharp commands sir, your drill sergeant delivery isn't always popular 594 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 1: with the troops. Three you use bad timing, which means 595 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: you drop your grievances or request for help and in 596 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: opportune moments, Oh, I see your sleeping, but I'm gonna 597 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: shake you away because I need to talk to you 598 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: if that was happening tomorrow. For toxic word choice or is? 599 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: My friend Claudia calls it the verbal assassin, where you 600 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: say things in a really calm way, but they are 601 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: really really mean, Like I didn't realize you're going to 602 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: become the worst father that ever existed? Was that something 603 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,280 Speaker 1: that you knew was going to happen to you? Five 604 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: all or nothing? You literally never replace the toilet paper roll. 605 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: You always keep the seat up. Six dredging up the past. 606 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: This is just like the last time you data DA 607 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: or finally, seven which is avoidance and boiling over. I 608 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: didn't say anything. I really didn't want to say anything. 609 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: I really really didn't want to have this conversation. But 610 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: now I'm really really pissed. What do you think Mac 611 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: would say about you? I have a big smile on 612 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: my face. As you've been reading all of those you 613 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: know what's so interesting is that I pride myself on 614 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 1: being an excellent communicator and do it for a living, 615 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: and yet I still have communication conflicts with my partner, 616 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: which is so fascinating to me. I would have to 617 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 1: say different situations would warrant different responses, but I like 618 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: the drill sergeant. I feel like that would be a 619 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: common complaint. Mm hmmm, well that's mine too, So maybe 620 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: that's why we get along so well. Uh. Seth often 621 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,479 Speaker 1: says I sound like nails on the chalkboard every time 622 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: I say anything, and it's very very sharp commands. And 623 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: I think the beauty of really understanding and starting to 624 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: think about your own vulnerabilities, and I hope our listeners 625 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: will do this alongside us as well, is that it 626 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: gives the humor. It disarms things. When you have an 627 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: invitation that Dan Stillman was talking about to come to 628 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 1: the table. You know, often people are afraid afraid to 629 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: come to the table if they're used to a pattern 630 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: of you in your communication vulnerability. So when you can 631 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: start saying things, or when I was able to start 632 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: saying things to Seth like okay, I know I sound 633 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: like nails on the chalkboard. I know you don't want 634 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: to talk to me because my tone sucks, But I 635 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: promise you that in this invitation, I'm going to do better. 636 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: It not only disarms the other person, but it allows 637 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: and opens up that invitation that we talked about today 638 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: in a way that's much more palatable to the person 639 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: you're speaking with. Yeah, it's almost like you become so 640 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,919 Speaker 1: self aware. You know what they're thinking and how they're 641 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: feeling in that moment because you've been in that pattern 642 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: so many times before, and you're calling yourself out. And 643 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: I think in many ways, as you enter a high 644 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 1: conflict conversation, being able to call yourself out, have a 645 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 1: little humor going into it, like Daniel said, going into 646 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: it with an open mind. You said something so wonderful 647 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: about if you want the outcome to be anger than 648 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: going with anger, or if you want the outcome to 649 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: be sadness and going with sadness. And of course we 650 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 1: don't want anger sadness in the conversations. We want resolution. 651 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: And so by owning your own stuff and your own 652 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: conversational vulnerabilities and communication vulnerabilities, I think that's one great 653 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: first step into bringing together a conversation that ends in 654 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: reconciliation and if not reconciliation, just a deeper understanding and 655 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: low conflict. And so, based on Eve's quiz, think about 656 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: Daniels communication tips and ask yourself, who are you as 657 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: you enter these high conflict conversations and how are you 658 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: going to start changing the conversation. Next week we'll be 659 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: starting to talk about the three permissions needed to fully 660 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: dive into your unicorn space. We have a special guest, 661 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: Greg McEwen, one of my favorite authors of essential ism 662 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: and his new book Effortless, and we get to talk 663 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: to him about the perks and the permission to be 664 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:40,359 Speaker 1: unavailable from your roles. Thank you for listening to Time Out, 665 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,439 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Podcasts, and Hello Sunshine. I'm 666 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: Eve Rodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller fair 667 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,240 Speaker 1: Play and Find your Unicorn Space. Follow me on social 668 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: media at Eve Rodsky and learn more about our work 669 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: at fair Play Life. And I'm Dr Addi Narukar, Harvard 670 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: physician with a specialty and stress resilience, burnout, and mental health. 671 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,720 Speaker 1: Follow me on social media at dr add ne Rucar 672 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: and find out more about my work at dr a 673 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: d d dot com. That's d R a d I 674 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: t I dot Com. Our Hello Sunshine Team is Amanda Farren, 675 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: Aaron Stover, and Jennifer Yonker. Our I Heart Media team 676 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: is Ali Perry, Jennifer Bassett and Jessica Kranschitch. We hope 677 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 1: you all love taking a much needed time out with 678 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: us today. Listen and subscribe to Time Out on the 679 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,279 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get 680 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.