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Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: us have heard that phrase at two Brute. That term

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Speaker 1: is actually a phrase that Shakespeare pinned when he was

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Speaker 1: writing one of his best known plays regarding Caesar. It

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Speaker 1: played during the Elizabethan times, and it captivated the crowd

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Speaker 1: because it was the story of a leader that was

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Speaker 1: slain by those in his inner circle. Of course, the

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Speaker 1: phrase itself points to Brutus, who was certainly in Caesar's

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Speaker 1: inner circle, But is it really how his death happened?

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Speaker 1: And of course we like to talk about death, and

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Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about the assassination of Julius

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Speaker 1: Caesar and his autopsy. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

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Speaker 1: is Body Backs, Great Caesar's Ghost, Dave mac I want

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Speaker 1: to have a conversation with you today about a historical

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Speaker 1: figure going back a couple of thousand years. Now we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the death of Julius Caesar at

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Speaker 1: the hands of those that surrounded him in a very

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Speaker 1: public area otherwise known as the forum. You up for this,

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Speaker 1: Dave mac IDEs of march Is upon us and a

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Speaker 1: lot of people like me. All we know about Julius

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Speaker 1: Caesar is what Shakespeare wrote? When did Shakespeare write Julius

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Speaker 1: Caesar fifteen ninety nine sixteen hundred somewhere in there for

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Speaker 1: the opening of the Globe Theater. You're talking about something

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Speaker 1: that was written a long time after the event took place.

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Speaker 1: So you've got a lot of memories, you've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of scattered stories, and you don't know the truth

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Speaker 1: from the lie. And that's why it's so fascinating. When

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Speaker 1: you told me this autopsy, I thought you were making

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Speaker 1: it up. But I thought they don't do autopsy's back.

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Speaker 1: Then he's making this up. What if we did an

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Speaker 1: autopsy that kind of thing. When you told me that

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Speaker 1: this was the first autopsy, I thought, Holy moly, we've

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Speaker 1: got a conspiracy. We've got being stabbed in the back

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Speaker 1: by his best friends, by people he trusted, by people

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Speaker 1: he believed in. That's what the setting is for all

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Speaker 1: of the rigamarroll that then proceeded. Everything that took place

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Speaker 1: centered around politics, power, money, throw sex in there, and

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Speaker 1: if they had rock and roll, they'd be rock and roll.

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Speaker 1: This had everything. One of the interesting things here is

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Speaker 1: it brings us to this big question, what's the purpose

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Speaker 1: of an autopsy? I probably misspoke when I said that

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Speaker 1: was the first autopsy. People have been examining human remains

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Speaker 1: for hundreds and hundreds of years. Isn't that how we've

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Speaker 1: learned biology. There have been times where it was forbidden

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Speaker 1: by law to actually dissect or what's referred to as

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Speaker 1: a pro section of human remains. It was forbidden. That's

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Speaker 1: where grave robbin came from. Many times medical students would

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Speaker 1: pay grave robbers to go out and grab bodies and

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Speaker 1: disinter bodies and bring them in so that they could

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Speaker 1: look and begin to understand human anatomy. Can you imagine

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Speaker 1: being a physician and not understanding how we function. You've

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Speaker 1: got a medical practice, Okay, I get it. They're practicing medicine,

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Speaker 1: but they're not allowed to actually look at a real body.

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Speaker 1: So they're assuming and guessing is certain things. And their

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Speaker 1: best thing is get that blue jay over here, and

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Speaker 1: let's see if we can get him to peck on

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Speaker 1: that eyebrow to fix his eyesight. Well, I haven't thought

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Speaker 1: about it that way, but yeah, you're absolutely right. There

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Speaker 1: are many locations, I think now in medical education where

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Speaker 1: they're using three dimensional digital autopsies or digital gross dissections.

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Speaker 1: In some instances where these are replacing actual dissection by

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Speaker 1: medical students. I have a problem with that. I think

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Speaker 1: there's a tactile nature to this. There's also a bigger reason,

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Speaker 1: I think in the case of Caesar, when he was

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Speaker 1: this victim of homicide, and it was a brutal homicide.

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Speaker 1: This is something that was done on the fifteenth of March,

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Speaker 1: the IDEs of March. As you mentioned, this is something

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Speaker 1: that was done in kind of a closed area. And

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Speaker 1: when I said closed, I'm saying the general public was

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Speaker 1: not allowed to be within this space. You're talking senators

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Speaker 1: that were in this environment. He was seated on a

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Speaker 1: gold throne. He'd made entrance into this location called the Portico,

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Speaker 1: where they had a throne set aside for him. There.

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Speaker 1: People think a lot about Caesar crossing the Rubicon and

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Speaker 1: all those things that he had done. He was a

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Speaker 1: masterful general. He was a beloved figure among the common

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Speaker 1: people of that time, and the senators were very elitist.

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Speaker 1: They truly words hard to frame it any other way.

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Speaker 1: This was very threatening to them. One of the interesting

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Speaker 1: parts to Caesar's life is that he had adjusted apparently

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Speaker 1: his will just prior to his assassination, almost like a

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Speaker 1: portent of what was to come to guarantee that all

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Speaker 1: citizens within Rome had three months worth of salary upon

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Speaker 1: his death in order to grieve him properly. You can

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Speaker 1: imagine how that kind of resonated with common folk. They're

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Speaker 1: looking at senators and they're thinking, these people aren't doing

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Speaker 1: anything for us. Here we have our supreme leader that

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Speaker 1: even upon his debt, he's going to leave us money.

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Speaker 1: He had a real common touch apparently, so when they

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Speaker 1: did this autopsy, the purpose of this, I think, and

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Speaker 1: we can explore this further, but the purpose of this

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Speaker 1: was to demonstrate first off, that Caesar was dead. Because

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Speaker 1: they didn't have mass media, obviously, many people would not

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Speaker 1: believe that he was dead. They had to confirm that

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Speaker 1: he was in fact dead, and then to kick it

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Speaker 1: up a notch. It was done in such a manner

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Speaker 1: that the public were made aware of how horrendous this

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Speaker 1: attack was when he was set upon by these people

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Speaker 1: that were occupying the space in the Senate that day.

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Speaker 1: An amazing conspiracy that when into taking out one of

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Speaker 1: the most beloved leaders at the time in the world.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like Rome was an island off to itself.

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Speaker 1: It was a big part of what was taking place

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Speaker 1: around the world. Everybody knew Julius Caesar. The Roman expansion

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Speaker 1: had not occurred to the point where we finally know

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Speaker 1: it at its peak, but it was from a Western perspective.

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Speaker 1: It was a world that had people from the former

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Speaker 1: Persian Empire that were part of it, and you had

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Speaker 1: people as far away as where modern day Frances. He

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Speaker 1: had made his name by going out with his armies

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Speaker 1: and defeating what they referred to as barbarians and keeping

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Speaker 1: the hordes at bay, if you will. That was part

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Speaker 1: of his entry into the pantheonon He achieved almost a

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Speaker 1: godlike status through his actions. As a general. He was known,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that this was done in such a

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Speaker 1: public way was really bold upon the people that were

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Speaker 1: conspiring to do this. You have these areas in your

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Speaker 1: life where you don't necessarily believe any harm can come

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Speaker 1: to you. But Caesar had been warned. He had been

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Speaker 1: warned in the days leading up to this fatal attack

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Speaker 1: Beware the odds of March, which is actually the fifteenth

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Speaker 1: of March. He was told that great harm was going

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Speaker 1: to come to me. As a matter of fact, it

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Speaker 1: is told that his wife at troubling nightmares in the

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Speaker 1: immediate nights preceding his death, and he had gone to

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Speaker 1: some links to try to reassure her that he was

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Speaker 1: going to be okay. There were people that were begging

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Speaker 1: him not to go to the Senate. So it was

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Speaker 1: in the air. It was floating about how is it

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Speaker 1: possible for or this many people to keep a secret.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever shared something with someone and you want

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Speaker 1: to keep it hush hush, and then all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden you get wind of it. How is it possible?

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Speaker 1: But he's surrounded by nest of vipers by the time

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Speaker 1: he walks into that room. I'm glad you said that,

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Speaker 1: because the amazing thing about the secret keeping that went

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Speaker 1: on is, even now, all these years later, we actually

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Speaker 1: don't know how many people were involved in the conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: This autopsy had a purpose beyond just cause of death

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Speaker 1: each one of the conspiracs and putting them in air quotes.

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Speaker 1: Each one of these conspirators had to leave their mark.

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Speaker 1: And I'm curious as to how, all these years later

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Speaker 1: we're looking at this and going, okay, well, wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned his wife having dreams. She had blood dreams,

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Speaker 1: which were commonly associated with death dreams. She's telling him,

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Speaker 1: don't go anywhere, just don't go to the Senate because

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Speaker 1: he was lured into an area where he would not

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Speaker 1: have bodyguards to show the people he was a common man.

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Speaker 1: He already relieved guards of duty right that had been

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Speaker 1: documented that he had done that to try to show

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Speaker 1: that he had the common touch. I don't need brutes

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Speaker 1: along with me to demonstrate I'm this powerful person. I

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Speaker 1: just want to demonstrate I feel very secure in this environment.

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's the ultimate and arrogance. Who knows, but

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Speaker 1: I do know that when he was meant to rise

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Speaker 1: from his throne in the Senate, there was a group

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Speaker 1: of these senators that descended upon him and put hands

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Speaker 1: on him. And as the story is told, one senator

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Speaker 1: actually grabbed hold of his outer vestments as they're called

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Speaker 1: his toga, and grabbed hold of the toga that he

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Speaker 1: was wearing in order to secure him in place. Forensically,

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Speaker 1: when you're looking at an environment where you have this

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Speaker 1: dynamic movement that's going on, particularly when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: edged weapons because he was stabbed, you have to be

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Speaker 1: able to corral this individual, hold them in place, and

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Speaker 1: guarantee that they cannot escape. You would not just have

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Speaker 1: had a group of attackers. It is alleged that there

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Speaker 1: would have been a peripheral group that were acting almost

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Speaker 1: like an outer defense rank to keep him contained in

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Speaker 1: that small space so that the attackers could do their

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Speaker 1: worst at that point in time. And it all initiates

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Speaker 1: with one senator grabbing hold of his toga. He's defenseless

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Speaker 1: at that point in tom he was also overpowered. Depending

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Speaker 1: on which historical documents one looks at, we know that

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Speaker 1: there was only one Julius Caesar and the people he trusted,

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Speaker 1: the closest ones to him were part of the conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: He had maybe sixty to seventy senators. Each one of

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Speaker 1: them had a different agenda. Some were kind of playing

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Speaker 1: lookout to make sure that Julius Caesar didn't get any help,

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Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, using the toga to hold him down.

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Speaker 1: And my question though, is we know that he was

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Speaker 1: stabbed twenty three times when he's dead, and you mentioned

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Speaker 1: the autopsy, was this a normal process when there was

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Speaker 1: a criminal ac joke. That's the part of this. We

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Speaker 1: don't really know. There's not a lot in the written record,

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Speaker 1: but his examination, his post mortem examination was famously documented,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't just documented. They believed this gentleman was

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Speaker 1: his attending physician, Anti Sias. They had physicians, and the

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Speaker 1: physicians back then had a true understanding of human anatomy.

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Speaker 1: You move forward in history, though, and some of that

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Speaker 1: knowledge was lost. The ancients possessed it. They didn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: have a problem with examining bodies, I don't think, and

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Speaker 1: trying to understand form and function. As we moved through history,

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Speaker 1: suddenly it's frowned upon to dissect human remained. But back

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Speaker 1: then they would have had an understanding. This idea of

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Speaker 1: a pathologist who studies disease and then you kick it

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Speaker 1: up another level to where they're studying fatal trauma. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't like this, but it was a physician, Anti Sias

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Speaker 1: was his name, and he conducted autopsy. An interesting little

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Speaker 1: turn here is that what we understand, Caesar lay where

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Speaker 1: he fell, they approximate for about three hours day. That

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Speaker 1: means that you would have had a lot of postmorum

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Speaker 1: changes that were taking place. He would have not been

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Speaker 1: in full rider Morris, but he would have been stiff

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Speaker 1: postmorm ravidity, which we've talked about extensively on bodybags, settling

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Speaker 1: a blood would have occurred. We have to understand that

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Speaker 1: his toga, these sorts of things in the undergarment, they

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Speaker 1: just walk around nude with a toga thrown on him.

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Speaker 1: They did have undergarments that they would wear. All the

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Speaker 1: clothing would have probably have still remained intact. It is

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Speaker 1: told that senators actually fled. There's two hundred known senators

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Speaker 1: that were there. Of course, not all of them are

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Speaker 1: in on the assassination. Interestingly, Caesar had actually expanded the

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Speaker 1: size of the Senate in order to represent more people.

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Speaker 1: So you had slaves there, he had secretaries, you had aids.

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Speaker 1: We don't know how many of those were there. They

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Speaker 1: fled out, and the conspirators, allegedly with him lying there,

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Speaker 1: were going to try to explain themselves, and suddenly the

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Speaker 1: whole thing went sideways. You mentioned that he expanded it.

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Speaker 1: There were over six hundred senators at the time that happened.

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Speaker 1: Only two to three hundred actually there. When I was

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Speaker 1: looking at this, Joe, they were talking about sixty to

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Speaker 1: seventy involved in the actual conspiracy, and they all had

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Speaker 1: different roles, And that actually makes a good point. If

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Speaker 1: they were say two hundred active senators that you would

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Speaker 1: have to have a number of other senators involved in

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Speaker 1: conspiracy were able to hold them back until the deed

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Speaker 1: was done. When somebody has stabbed that many times, Joe,

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Speaker 1: and they're laying there, as you said, for hours, does

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Speaker 1: the blood just keep pouring out until there is no

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Speaker 1: more blood or does it stop? At some point it

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Speaker 1: will stop. You'll have the seepage that takes place initially

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Speaker 1: because it is a liquid. I've alluded to this before,

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Speaker 1: but viscosity goes to thickness. So one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: that blood remains a viscous liquid are thick It is

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Speaker 1: because it's moving through our body. But once that movement

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Speaker 1: begins to seize and blood begins to settle, it begins

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Speaker 1: to separate. There's kind of a coagulation that goes on

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Speaker 1: and it becomes very thick. From those initial insults to

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Speaker 1: the body. Yet he would have been pumping out blood,

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Speaker 1: certainly from those while his heart was still going, and

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Speaker 1: then he would have fallen to the floor. There would

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Speaker 1: have been seepits from those immediate areas where the estab

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Speaker 1: wounds took place, but after a period of time it

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Speaker 1: would have ceased, and so the slaves, think maybe three

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Speaker 1: to four actually came into this area three hours later

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Speaker 1: and gathered his remains and took him back to his apartments.

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Speaker 1: It's there that Antsias went and conducted his examination. It's

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Speaker 1: really quite fascinating. What was the physician's purpose in this.

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Speaker 1: Did he take it upon himself to say, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to do a post mortem examination on Caesar's remains, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to determine what happened. And this is what's

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Speaker 1: fascinating about this. Guess what he may have been trying

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Speaker 1: to achieve a sequencing of wounds, a sequencing of injuries.

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Speaker 1: And you've got so many eyes on the scene, people

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Speaker 1: that are not part of the conspiracy. And if he

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Speaker 1: can establish a sequence, it can actually establish whose hand

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Speaker 1: was in the actual death, who thrust that dagger forward.

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Speaker 1: Dagger implies double edged, so this is a very destructive instrument.

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Speaker 1: You're not just cutting on one side. You've got now

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Speaker 1: two sharp edges that are going into the body. And

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Speaker 1: it was not uncommon for people to walk around with

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Speaker 1: a dagger in their belt. It's not necessarily because you're

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Speaker 1: afraid you're going to be robbed. They had utility. You

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Speaker 1: could peel fruit, with them, or you could chop things up,

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Speaker 1: you could cut rope, you could probably crack up an oysters.

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Speaker 1: Oysters were part of the diet back then. Dagger would

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Speaker 1: have been very well suited to that because it's got

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Speaker 1: a double edge on it. But they could be used

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Speaker 1: for defense, and so you wouldn't necessarily know that someone

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Speaker 1: had a dagger, but they could reach inside their cloak

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Speaker 1: and pull this thing out and deploy it. This sequencing

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Speaker 1: is very key here because what Antisias determined was this,

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Speaker 1: though Caesar was stabbed so many times twenty three, there

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Speaker 1: was only one of these days that was actually fatal.

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Speaker 1: If you think about your left shoulder blade and kind

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Speaker 1: of move up your shoulder blade till you're near your spine,

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Speaker 1: I think people forget that we have ribs on our

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Speaker 1: posterior as well as our anterior, so they kind of

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Speaker 1: wrap around between his first and second rib Posteriorly the

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Speaker 1: dagger entered, and this dagger probably was in the range

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Speaker 1: of about seven to eight inches. It makes it concealable.

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Speaker 1: It's not like a standard dagger that like a Roman

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Speaker 1: soldier would have carried. It's a little bit shorter, but

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Speaker 1: it would have been buried in his back and it

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Speaker 1: passes between that intercostal space, the meaty muscle area between

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Speaker 1: the ribs. Based upon the autopsy results, it would seem

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Speaker 1: that his A order may have been clipped, and the

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Speaker 1: A order is the big vessel that comes off of

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Speaker 1: the heart. They think that it may have been clipped,

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Speaker 1: or his lung may have been clipped, or maybe both.

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Speaker 1: It would have been an unusual injury because most of

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Speaker 1: the time when we see insults like this, where you've

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Speaker 1: got penetrative events where there's a dunshot, wind or stab,

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Speaker 1: when those are going to come in from the front

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Speaker 1: or anteriorly. Here this is coming from the back, which

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Speaker 1: is fascinating to me. But you mentioned the blood loss.

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Speaker 1: Does that mean that the doctor would have ruled his

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Speaker 1: death due to blood loss? I'm so glad you asked this.

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Speaker 1: This is a fancy word that doctors use. It's called exanguination,

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Speaker 1: and it merely means to bleed out when Antesias would

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Speaker 1: have opened. If he did, in fact open, there's no

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Speaker 1: guarantee that he opened Caesar's body. The autopsy merely means

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Speaker 1: that he did a post mortum exam. If he did

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Speaker 1: open the chest cavity, what he would have been greeted

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Speaker 1: by Caesar's lungs would have been literally floating in blood.

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Speaker 1: And we refer to this as plural effusion. When you

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Speaker 1: bleed out internally in your chest. In particular, the lungs

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Speaker 1: are going to be a washing blood because there's not

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Speaker 1: enough holes, if you will, defects for the blood to

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Speaker 1: pour out, so it's contained. In that environment, it would

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Speaker 1: have been literally floating. He would have understood enough about

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Speaker 1: human physiology and certainly trauma. I would think to understand

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Speaker 1: that there's something internally going on here. Something has been nicked,

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Speaker 1: a vessel has been nicked, and he would have bled

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Speaker 1: out in this environment. Aortic injuries are not the most survivable,

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Speaker 1: but you can have people that will survive chest injuries

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Speaker 1: like this if you can get them to the doctor

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Speaker 1: so that they can open up the chest cavity and

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Speaker 1: drain blood out. That's not something that would have been

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Speaker 1: done here. First off, they didn't have a wherewithal at

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Speaker 1: that moment in time they left his body there. He

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Speaker 1: apparently had died pretty quickly. There was no signs of life.

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Speaker 1: By their estimation, his chest would have filled with blood.

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Speaker 1: And when you open people's chest up at autopsy like this.

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Speaker 1: I have been standing at the autopsy table and have

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Speaker 1: been a washing blood where it pours out depended upon

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Speaker 1: how the body has been handled in this sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: and you will literally see almost like a cork in

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Speaker 1: the water when you're fish, the lungs floating in blood

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Speaker 1: like this. And that's what actually led to his day

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Speaker 1: thinking about these injuries that Caesar sustained. Either these guys

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Speaker 1: were not very handy with sharp instruments because you've got

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Speaker 1: a guy that's being held down, or maybe there was

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Speaker 1: some other purpose as to why twenty three. I've had

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Speaker 1: a hard time trying to make my way through this logically, David.

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Speaker 1: It's because it's not logical. You would think that as

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Speaker 1: a conspiracy unfold, that each person has a designed part

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Speaker 1: of the plan. I'm gonna hold his arms back, He's

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Speaker 1: going to stab him. But the problem is when you

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Speaker 1: get into the guilt base, if this turns south, who's

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Speaker 1: going to get blamed for this event? I'm thinking first

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Speaker 1: stab as stab, batelstab. Surely they had to have done

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Speaker 1: more than just stick him. Weren't they beating him? I mean,

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Speaker 1: what did he look like when this was done? There

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Speaker 1: would have been some blunt force trauma. I can only

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Speaker 1: imagine that's not really part of the record, but have

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Speaker 1: to understand that they're going to be applying direct force

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Speaker 1: in addition to the stab wounds. But here's something curious.

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Speaker 1: There is a gentleman that was a death investigator and

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Speaker 1: a criminalist, an Italian gentleman named Commander Gropino. He went

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Speaker 1: to great links to try to reconstruct the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: This location actually still stands. You can see it. It's

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Speaker 1: called the Portico. I've never been there. I've always wanted

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Speaker 1: to go to Italy. That's going to be on the

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Speaker 1: list to get to. This is very significant in forensics,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get to that in just a second. But

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Speaker 1: the commander, when he went back through to assist, he

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Speaker 1: also consulted with forensic psychiatrists. His conclusion was based upon

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Speaker 1: the record that they have and the report that he

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Speaker 1: had kind of gone through it with us, that there

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Speaker 1: was an attempt Dave to disfigure Caesar, because it's the

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Speaker 1: wound that we had talked about that under the left

364
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Speaker 1: shoulder blade. These other wounds were apparently survivable wounds, but

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Speaker 1: they were horrific. He had wounds to his face and

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Speaker 1: to his groin. So many times we talk about sharp

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Speaker 1: force injuries in these cases on body bags, and when

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Speaker 1: you have a case where disfigurement is involved, that's an

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Speaker 1: indication of a lot of anger. You're trying to send

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Speaker 1: a message. If I can't have you, no one else can.

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Speaker 1: All these other things, we're gonna make you look horrible,

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Speaker 1: even in death. And then you go to this great

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Speaker 1: man being the focus here. The commander and the psychiatrist

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Speaker 1: believe that this was an attempt to emasculate it, this

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Speaker 1: attempt to attack his manhood in a physical demonstration. That's

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Speaker 1: key here, because they wanted to demonstrate that they were

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Speaker 1: going to be the dominant force, certainly in the ruling

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Speaker 1: class in Rome, and demonstrate to everybody in the Senate. Now,

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Speaker 1: I always go back to this with this assassination. It's

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Speaker 1: one thing where you've got an individual that is quote

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Speaker 1: unquote assassinated, but when you do it in front of

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Speaker 1: a group of people, there's more to it than merely

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Speaker 1: a homicide. You're demonstrating something to somebody, You're sending a

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Speaker 1: message to everybody else where. Did they actually do the autopsy?

385
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Speaker 1: We're left with him laid out on the floor, blood

386
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Speaker 1: has coagulated. It's a couple hours later. What do they

387
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Speaker 1: do Now They've taken him back to the palace and

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Speaker 1: to what would have been referred to as his apartments,

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Speaker 1: and they would have done the autopsy there. Antsias would

390
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Speaker 1: have spent a considerable amount of time. I can only

391
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Speaker 1: imagine while he's doing this, he probably has a scribe

392
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Speaker 1: with him, and this is interesting going forward to modern autopsies.

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Speaker 1: One of my initial jobs in the morgue was to

394
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Speaker 1: work as a scribe, and they still use that term.

395
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Speaker 1: And the physicians will look at you and they will say,

396
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Speaker 1: will you scribe for me? And what that means is

397
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Speaker 1: that the physician is covered in blood. Even today, you're

398
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: covered in blood and they will have bloody surgical gloves on,

399
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: they'll have it over their arms, and many times there

400
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 1: will be a person seated on a chair that will

401
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: have a clipboard and a pen. And you have to

402
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 1: be able to speak the physicians language now, because they

403
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 1: all have different things that they like to indicate, from

404
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 1: measurements to the organ descriptions, injury descriptions, and there's actually

405
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: a scribe that sits there and they will write this

406
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: stuff down. Some people record it and by voice where

407
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 1: they have a mic haying down, which is really horrible

408
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: because you pick up all the other noises in the room.

409
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Speaker 1: Imagine ant size. Theery would have been barehanded. He's got

410
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Speaker 1: blood all over him, the blood of Caesar, and he's

411
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Speaker 1: got this person that's sitting there with him describe, and

412
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Speaker 1: he's writing all of this down as he's going through

413
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Speaker 1: these injuries and making note of it. And he made

414
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: such great notes by their standard. Then he actually developed

415
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: something that we use now, and that's three D modeling.

416
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Speaker 1: Remember how I was saying that they wanted to demonstrate

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Speaker 1: that this event actually took place. They created a wax

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Speaker 1: effigy of Caesar, and Antisias indicated on the wax effigy

419
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Speaker 1: of Caesar where his injuries were. Now that's something that

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Speaker 1: we do with computers Nowaday. This was over two thousand

421
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Speaker 1: years ago. They created this model in wax. After he

422
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 1: had set this thing up, they took it into a

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00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: public location known as the Forum and had it on

424
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 1: this wheel and turned it so that everybody in the

425
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Speaker 1: crowd could see it. They said that when the people

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Speaker 1: that witnessed this display, this is a godlike figure to

427
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: these people. When they witnessed and he suddenly becomes mortal. Right,

428
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: they witnessed what had happened to their beloved Caesar. There

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00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: were people weeping, screaming. It infuriated the crowd. It was

430
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: at that moment time that something happened, because it's from

431
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: that moment time when this physician over two thousand years

432
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: ago created this wax model, stood before a crowd in

433
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: the forum and began to describe Caesar's injuries and how

434
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: he died. This is where we get the word forensic from.

435
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 1: It's rooted in the same word as forum. And that's

436
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 1: what we do in forensics day. We debate science, we

437
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: debate in front of a court. Still to this day,

438
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 1: we talk about the science of death. This is amazing. Yeah,

439
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: it is that we've got these kinds of threads through

440
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 1: time that lead all the way back to the death

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00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: of Caesar. I would need a wax model because you

442
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: describe things or I read them, and I'm not a doctor.

443
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: I'm just a guy. I don't know all the terminology,

444
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 1: and I certainly don't know what these things mean. But

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00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: you show me a wax body that looks like mine,

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00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 1: and you're showing me where these stab wounds were and

447
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: what other damage was done. Now I have a good

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00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: understanding of what took place and what they have done,

449
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: those who did this, the conspirators. That blows me away

450
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: that even to this day I could see this exact

451
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: same thing happening right now with forensic stuff that is

452
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: named after this, which blows me away. It is quite amazing.

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00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: And it's not like the ancients were ignorant people, and

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00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: it's arrogance on our party if we dismissed them and

455
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: their ability to understand and comprehend. Just because we're modern

456
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: in our own context doesn't mean that we're brighter than

457
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,719
Speaker 1: they were. They still felt the same things that we do.

458
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: They could still understand intellectually form and function, and this

459
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: model itself and the presentation of it in this court

460
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: like setting really drove the crowd and the momentum of

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00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 1: everything that was happening in Rome at that time to

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00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: go after these people. There was an entire war that

463
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: was fought in the face of this. The famous Mark

464
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,959
Speaker 1: Antony rose to power at this point in time, and

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00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: it all kind of turned on this one event. And

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00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: we have Antisias to thank for this to be able

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00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: to take an event that was so tragic in Roman

468
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 1: history and their great leader that had fallen, and almost

469
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: like we do with it dead today, conjure them, bring

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00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: them back to life. And again it holds true today,

471
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: just like it did all those years ago. Where we

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Speaker 1: begin and understand that we speak for the that can

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Speaker 1: no longer speak for themselves. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and

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Speaker 1: this is body Bags