Speaker 1: Welcome to Woke a f with Me Danielle Moody. Earlier
Speaker 1: this year, I was joined by doctor Jen M. Jackson
Speaker 1: to talk all about their experience and perspective as a
Speaker 1: polyamorous person, and to discuss how polyamory ties into race
Speaker 1: and gender liberation. I shared part of that conversation with
Speaker 1: you at the end of January after posting the full
Speaker 1: discussion for woke a f Nation over at patreon dot
Speaker 1: com slash woke af and I got such a strong
Speaker 1: response that I had to have them back to further
Speaker 1: educate my curious listeners. This time, I also invited their husband,
Speaker 1: Darren Jackson, who co hosts their podcast That Black Couple,
Speaker 1: to talk about his experience as a monogamous, asexual person
Speaker 1: in a relationship with a polyamorous queer person. I ended
Speaker 1: up getting more than I bargained for, as Jen's live
Speaker 1: in partner, Tia jumped on the couch and joined them
Speaker 1: for what became a nearly hour long symposium. So today
Speaker 1: I bring you a juicy morsel of that thought provoking
Speaker 1: session about living as a polyamorous black person in the
Speaker 1: twenty first century. What is it like to raise three
Speaker 1: children and a polyamorous household with a married couple and
Speaker 1: a third partner. Listen in and find out. I think
Speaker 1: that it is always important whenever I'm talking about various
Speaker 1: topics on woke, app to have an explainer, right. And
Speaker 1: what was interesting to me Jen when we first spoke
Speaker 1: was the differentiation between polyamory monogamy, what it means to
Speaker 1: have a nesting partner versus other partners, what it means
Speaker 1: to show up in these different spaces. Now, these are
Speaker 1: I guess labels, but I almost I see them as
Speaker 1: explainers if in fact, you want to explain or describe
Speaker 1: your relationship. So can you all explain your dynamic again
Speaker 1: and then we can jump into, you know, even deeper
Speaker 1: conversation about kids and parenting and all of that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, Darren and I met our first day of
Speaker 1: moving at the University of Southern California in two thousand
Speaker 1: and two. So I have known this person for more
Speaker 1: than half of my life at this point, and we
Speaker 1: just took to each other. You know, we were not romantic.
Speaker 1: We just kind of were drawn to each other. We
Speaker 1: like the same music, we like the same food. We
Speaker 1: couldn't stand the same people together, and you know, we
Speaker 1: found the same things generally annoying, and so that bonded
Speaker 1: us together in a way where we said, you know,
Speaker 1: regardless of what this looks like, we want to be
Speaker 1: in each other's lives forever. If it's a romantic thing,
Speaker 1: if it's parenting, if it's family, whatever it is, we
Speaker 1: want to do it together. And that was a commitment
Speaker 1: that we had from the beginning. I was always Polly,
Speaker 1: I was always queer, so I was kind of confused, like, well,
Speaker 1: you're a boy. I remember saying that a lot to him, like, hey,
Speaker 1: but you're a boy. Sociers know this is going to
Speaker 1: get a little dicey for me, and you know, we
Speaker 1: decided to trust ourselves and trust our bodies and let
Speaker 1: our lives move in the ways that felt natural to us.
Speaker 1: And so we wanted to get married, and I for
Speaker 1: the first time in my life, I was like, I
Speaker 1: think I want to have kids with someone. And he
Speaker 1: was the only person I've ever in my life wanted
Speaker 1: to raise a family with. And so, you know, I
Speaker 1: have a hard condition. I was told I could never
Speaker 1: have kids. I had open heart surgery and they said,
Speaker 1: well you can. I said great, because I found the
Speaker 1: perfect person right, And so we have three children, and
Speaker 1: you know, we are now at a stage where we
Speaker 1: have a business together. We are raising a thirteen year old,
Speaker 1: nine year old and seven year old. We have a
Speaker 1: home together, we have you know, jobs, and we are nested.
Speaker 1: We build a life together. We do life together. We
Speaker 1: build life together. But I also am now the point
Speaker 1: where I have someone I consider my wife for my
Speaker 1: future wife, and I want to also now build life
Speaker 1: with her. And that was something I didn't think was possible.
Speaker 1: Darren is monogamous, and you can you can also talk everyone.
Speaker 1: I don't want to interrupt you. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know when we get a break, you know. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I am a monogamous and I think I've come a
Speaker 1: long way, and even defining what monogamy is, I think,
Speaker 1: just like polyamory, monogamy is different for everybody. I'm someone who,
Speaker 1: in various conversations have said, well, maybe I could be
Speaker 1: polyamorous in another life, but in this life that I'm living,
Speaker 1: I don't have the band with the attention, the energy,
Speaker 1: you know, so on and so forth to maintain more
Speaker 1: than one relationship with an individual. And I identify as
Speaker 1: a monogamous person. But I think our dynamic is also
Speaker 1: interesting because I am also a sexual at the same time,
Speaker 1: so I am not interested at this point in my
Speaker 1: life in the sexual interactions. That doesn't mean that we're
Speaker 1: not romantic, platonic, loving, building life together, like you've said,
Speaker 1: but that is not an aspect that is important to me.
Speaker 1: And so I think what we've done in our relationship
Speaker 1: that's been very powerful and very important is we've had,
Speaker 1: you know, decades long conversations about what we each want,
Speaker 1: what's important to us, what isn't important to us, and
Speaker 1: we have kind of meshed together to make our lives
Speaker 1: work for each other, and we've also been there for
Speaker 1: each other as those things shift and change. So I
Speaker 1: don't think at any point have we looked at each
Speaker 1: other and said, you're not allowed to change who you
Speaker 1: are away what's important to you. If tomorrow things changed,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean, you know, there's a boundary that you're
Speaker 1: not allowed to cross, and you're now crossing it and
Speaker 1: that now ends everything. It means now we have a conversation,
Speaker 1: and that's I think. You know, historically everyone says that
Speaker 1: about relationships, it's all about communication, and I feel like
Speaker 1: that's that much more important when polyamorant is a part
Speaker 1: of the equation because you do have to have those
Speaker 1: open lines of communication and understanding with one another to
Speaker 1: make sure that everyone's needs are met. One of the
Speaker 1: things that I want to ask go back to Jen,
Speaker 1: it's mentioning a wife and somebody else that you are
Speaker 1: wanting to or are currently sharing your life with. What
Speaker 1: does that look like when you when you, oh, shit,
Speaker 1: we could have done a three. I'm very safe. You
Speaker 1: might want I told her you might want her to
Speaker 1: come in and say, hey, I may, I may. How
Speaker 1: did that evolve in what does this look like? And
Speaker 1: then I want to go into how you talk to
Speaker 1: your kids? Yeah, so you know, I've always been Polly.
Speaker 1: You know, I've never understood monogamy for me, I've always
Speaker 1: even back to like high school. For me, I felt
Speaker 1: drawn to lots of different people, and I felt lots
Speaker 1: of different energies. It was hard for me when people
Speaker 1: would make me choose and I didn't like it, and
Speaker 1: so I would just opt out. The moment somebody said
Speaker 1: you can't be with this person or you can't I
Speaker 1: was like, okay, I'm out. I would literally just dip out.
Speaker 1: Some people say this because I'm a virgo. I know
Speaker 1: it's because I'm poly. And what that has meant is that,
Speaker 1: you know, for me specifically, I was also very closeted
Speaker 1: all growing I'm really very religious. Um. I was not
Speaker 1: allowed to express the parts of me that are masculine
Speaker 1: and androgynist. Um. I was always kind of encouraged to
Speaker 1: be I'm six four and I've been six four since
Speaker 1: I was twelve, so it was like, you're gonna be
Speaker 1: a model, and you're gonna be all this stuff, and
Speaker 1: it wasn't the encouragement to be like leaning too the
Speaker 1: parts of you dinner and drowg like I feel very
Speaker 1: Grace Jones, I don't feel Cindy Crawford. Here' she got
Speaker 1: can we make room? Come on, baby jacket, come on baby, Hi. Hi,
Speaker 1: that's to you cha. I'm Danielle. This is thank you
Speaker 1: so much for bopping in. Well, oh welcome. Fuck yeah. No.
Speaker 1: So basically, you know, I think for me, it was
Speaker 1: around the time I was in college where I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm queer and I kind of started to really accept it,
Speaker 1: but I still wasn't out. I was very very much closeted,
Speaker 1: and in terms of you know, what it looks like
Speaker 1: building a life with Tia, same thing that I talked
Speaker 1: about with Darre And it's like we dream together, like
Speaker 1: we have dreams of having a compound or farm and
Speaker 1: where we you know, do work together, where we train
Speaker 1: folks on self care and polyamory and going back to
Speaker 1: the land and taking back our bodies from the world
Speaker 1: that's tried to claim us. And like, for me, it's
Speaker 1: like we've connected in that way and I've chosen to
Speaker 1: lean into it and to let it do what it
Speaker 1: wants to do. Very similar to what I was just
Speaker 1: talking about with Darren, Like I don't know how it's
Speaker 1: gonna look, and I don't need to know how it's
Speaker 1: gonna look. I don't need to have all the answers.
Speaker 1: But it felt natural, you know, and I was like, hey,
Speaker 1: let's just move in together, you know, like let's just
Speaker 1: be a family. And it felt right and everyone works.
Speaker 1: And I think it's one of those things where because
Speaker 1: we're so wrapped up in cultural normativity about what should
Speaker 1: be and who is allowed to experience joy, and also
Speaker 1: we have so much trauma where when things are going well,
Speaker 1: we wait for the other shooter drop and I say,
Speaker 1: we because I'm we girl, I'm we okay, so that
Speaker 1: where I am you are when we are we. But look,
Speaker 1: but also when things are good, we spend so much
Speaker 1: time afraid about what's going to happen that we don't
Speaker 1: get to just sit and enjoy. And so I think
Speaker 1: what we're all trying to work on not speaking on
Speaker 1: the other time, um, but like it's just really sitting
Speaker 1: with like this is good and we are happy, um,
Speaker 1: and we are building a life that allows each of
Speaker 1: us to really go after what it is that we
Speaker 1: want for ourselves. And so that's kind of how all this,
Speaker 1: I mean should be copy in my hair color though.
Speaker 1: I mean, y'all look cute and like twins to tell
Speaker 1: me you all everybody now lives together? Yes, okay, Tia,
Speaker 1: introduce yourself, and then I want to know how long
Speaker 1: have ye you that? Are you Polly? Are you monogamous?
Speaker 1: And how does how has this been functioning? Cious? Sure?
Speaker 1: So I'm Tia originally from Jersey of Jamaican descent, So okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: um yeah, I've been Polly for maybe the past three
Speaker 1: four years. I'm getting up there on the right a
Speaker 1: little Polly. And it started out for me is just
Speaker 1: reimagining what it meant to have a successful relationship. I
Speaker 1: was like, if I want to do relationships or marriage,
Speaker 1: what would that look like for me? So I started
Speaker 1: with the idea of living a part together from like
Speaker 1: RuPaul and his partner, and I was like, oh, so
Speaker 1: people can I was like, you can love somebody and
Speaker 1: not want to live with them, like if you have
Speaker 1: a messy partner, and being able to love somebody on
Speaker 1: their terms because I am a neat freak. So that
Speaker 1: was something that was like a big kicker for me.
Speaker 1: And then it started to be like a more imagining
Speaker 1: like ethical nonmonogamy, and then reading up more about that,
Speaker 1: like The Ethical Slut was a really good book with that.
Speaker 1: So just kind of like going down the trail and
Speaker 1: like slowly just making the journey for myself. So polyamory
Speaker 1: really was just like a natural progression for me. But
Speaker 1: I think I've always understood. I was like, I think
Speaker 1: we should just be honest about like if we like
Speaker 1: other people, but not understanding what that meant in a
Speaker 1: monogamous kind. I was like, and then like your partner
Speaker 1: would be like, oh, well, I don't know. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I can trust you with my truth. If
Speaker 1: I'm attracted to other people, I don't know if I
Speaker 1: can trust you with my truth. If there are things
Speaker 1: that have changed for me in our relationship, and it
Speaker 1: felt like a safer way to be more honest in
Speaker 1: relationships and to really build it on trust and just
Speaker 1: more intentionality than anything else. So you have three kids, yeah,
Speaker 1: and everybody is living in the house, three whole other
Speaker 1: human beings. Yeah, tell me about how you have this
Speaker 1: open conversation and about what you think that you all
Speaker 1: the three of you are teaching them about relationships, about love,
Speaker 1: about connectivity. Anybody can anybody can start. So our prefaces
Speaker 1: by saying, we have raised these kids very intentionally from
Speaker 1: the beginning to really want them to be their own
Speaker 1: people and whatever that means, but also being very open
Speaker 1: and honest and transparent about how we move through life
Speaker 1: and who we are as people. We also check in
Speaker 1: with them, probably too much, but we're always checking in
Speaker 1: on them to make sure they're okay, to ask if
Speaker 1: they have any questions, to you know, openly and honestly
Speaker 1: answer those questions. And so as things have changed over
Speaker 1: the years, as different dynamics have come into play, as
Speaker 1: we've moved and been in different situations, right, We've always
Speaker 1: checked in with them and say, hey, are you okay?
Speaker 1: It's something bothering you? What do you like? But do
Speaker 1: you not like? And so I think that once again,
Speaker 1: the open lines of communication have been really great with
Speaker 1: us and raising our kids. And that doesn't mean we
Speaker 1: don't have fears or concerns or worries and doubts, right,
Speaker 1: and all those things that do appear. But as Tia
Speaker 1: has moved in, we have you know, checked in with
Speaker 1: them and made sure they're okay, see if they have
Speaker 1: any questions, both privately one on one and then also
Speaker 1: as a group. And to be honest, I've been very
Speaker 1: proud and happy and how honestly, they've really been unmoved
Speaker 1: really because my my fear and my thought and my
Speaker 1: expectation was there would be concerns and be questions, that'd
Speaker 1: be worried that, you know, all these things that we
Speaker 1: would have to deal with. And really, seriously, it's been
Speaker 1: like we're good change. My daughter. The first thing she asked,
Speaker 1: is going to move in? She said, does she like crafts?
Speaker 1: And I was like, I just told you a whole
Speaker 1: human is moving in. And she was like I said
Speaker 1: what I said because we had already met at them right,
Speaker 1: they weren't want to be and saw some things. I mean,
Speaker 1: I want to say a couple of things. I think
Speaker 1: the first is that you know, we did not they're
Speaker 1: not When we talked about having a family, because it's
Speaker 1: so important to me, it was something I was told
Speaker 1: I would never be allowed to do that. My body
Speaker 1: could not do it, but I was told that I
Speaker 1: would never be allowed to do it, right, like I
Speaker 1: would never because of my heart condition. And so I
Speaker 1: was like, if I ever have children, it's gonna be
Speaker 1: like I'm so serious about this, and I'm like, I
Speaker 1: want to raise these free black children. You know, my
Speaker 1: childhood was really rough, and you know, I was coming
Speaker 1: out of like surviving multiple sexual assaults and having issues
Speaker 1: with being abused by family members and things like that,
Speaker 1: and so for me, it was like, if we're gonna
Speaker 1: do this, we're gonna do this. And so I was
Speaker 1: intense I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie or whatever.
Speaker 1: But when we decided to start a family, I was like,
Speaker 1: we're gonna raise free black children. We're never gonna tell
Speaker 1: them who they are. We're gonna ask them who they are,
Speaker 1: and like we're gonna give them all the options. I
Speaker 1: don't want to force them into any religion. I don't
Speaker 1: want to force them into any idea unities. I don't
Speaker 1: let them tell us who they are. I want to
Speaker 1: meet our children, and you know, it was important to
Speaker 1: us to debunk these myths about how you have to
Speaker 1: be when they would come home and say, oh, those
Speaker 1: are boy clothes or those are girl clothes or boy
Speaker 1: toys or or whatever. Like we've always had conversations around gender.
Speaker 1: And then I remember one point my daughter was like,
Speaker 1: you know, she would catch us on pronoun She's like,
Speaker 1: you do not other person's gender do not? She heard them.
Speaker 1: I'm like, you're right, you know, like we were very
Speaker 1: good about saying like we don't, we don't have to
Speaker 1: be one way. And so we've done that since they
Speaker 1: were born, and you know, they've seen me evolved through
Speaker 1: you know, queerness and how my polyage shows up in
Speaker 1: the world, and so this is like not new for
Speaker 1: them to the point where sometimes I feel like they're bored,
Speaker 1: and it is they are. I tell them something like yeah, mom,
Speaker 1: we know, like you're a whole professor, like and you know,
Speaker 1: it's one of those things where like I just wish
Speaker 1: people would trust children more, specifically black. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: Black childrens to the nexus of so many identities and experiences,
Speaker 1: and we don't trust them to understand the world, and
Speaker 1: they get it more than so many adults. So I mean,
Speaker 1: my children. I sometimes feel sad that I don't want
Speaker 1: to leave my house because the people in my house
Speaker 1: are so wonderful. My kids, we have so much fun
Speaker 1: and like they are so brilliant and amazing, So they haven't.
Speaker 1: Our conversations with them have been more you know, just
Speaker 1: kind of seeking more wisdom and understanding and making sure
Speaker 1: that they have clarity than anything else. But they are
Speaker 1: very much like we're a family and people here love
Speaker 1: us and they feel the unconditional love and that's what
Speaker 1: matters to them. And they haven't felt threatened or unsafe,
Speaker 1: the routines not changing, like there's nothing that has signaled
Speaker 1: to them that their lives are in threat or peril.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what kids are worried about, right.
Speaker 1: They're worried, like, is this going to materially affect the
Speaker 1: quality of my life? And what they're saying is actually
Speaker 1: things are funner and better, so they're good, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think people have to look that stuff more
Speaker 1: and let kids really take their time to work through
Speaker 1: their experiences in ways that they have the expert knowledge
Speaker 1: to do, because they actually do they do it. It's
Speaker 1: funny because I think that there has always been this
Speaker 1: desire and as a former teacher, I recognize this very clearly,
Speaker 1: that there's always this desire to protect children from what
Speaker 1: adults believe will somehow rob them of their childhood. And
Speaker 1: there is a protection as opposed to a guidance that
Speaker 1: is there, right, like how do you learn? You learn
Speaker 1: through exposure? Right, and how do you you know? And
Speaker 1: how are you feeling about these things? Well, then we
Speaker 1: discuss them, right, and we discuss what's coming up for you.
Speaker 1: And if you shield, if you cover up, then where
Speaker 1: is the learning. The learning isn't just how to navigate
Speaker 1: through this, you know, false idea of perfection or or
Speaker 1: non struggle like, oh, I don't want my kids to struggle, Well,
Speaker 1: how are they going to develop, you know, resilience, Like
Speaker 1: I'm confused about how you back them to have grit
Speaker 1: and resiliency when you don't expose them to shit, you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm not a parent, but I have seen how
Speaker 1: that is detrimental to like when you go into raising
Speaker 1: children as opposed to raising people. I feel like that's
Speaker 1: where the problem comes, is that they're not going to
Speaker 1: be children for forever. They're going to they are people
Speaker 1: belong to themselves. Correct, they belong to themselves. Our responsibility
Speaker 1: is not to keep them and to possess them. It's
Speaker 1: to teach them how to belong to themselves and how
Speaker 1: to be responsible for themselves and to be here to
Speaker 1: witness it. I see myself as a witness. I'm like,
Speaker 1: this is so cool. Like they do stuff and I'm like,
Speaker 1: that's a new word. Hi five. Like I just think
Speaker 1: that they're interesting. I would insulate things for other people. So,
Speaker 1: like the other day, one of the kids was in
Speaker 1: school and we were kind of being loud adults and
Speaker 1: we were like kids, we're like making out of their
Speaker 1: kiden orselves. They're like, sorry, that's just my two moms
Speaker 1: doing stuff. They're like, it's okay, continue on with the math. Lesson.
Speaker 1: Sorry I'd say a little over here, but it's you know,
Speaker 1: it gives them language because now they have to translate
Speaker 1: what they're seeing they're like, well, for you, this might
Speaker 1: mean this. So they're giving other people language for how
Speaker 1: they can interpret what is happening even in their household.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was one of the confirmations for me,
Speaker 1: like aside from like meeting Darren and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're a cool human, you know. It was just like
Speaker 1: the kids were confirmation that I was like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is the person that you say you are, because kids
Speaker 1: are often a reflection of their seeing that. You know,
Speaker 1: these were just human beings that were living their best
Speaker 1: free lives. They had opinions and thoughts, they had their
Speaker 1: own politics, they were free to express themselves, and it
Speaker 1: was like everything that you said was also true. So
Speaker 1: it's like confirmation come to fruition. So that was one
Speaker 1: of the things that I was like, Oh, this is
Speaker 1: my person. Like we go together now. Woke. F is
Speaker 1: a space to get you woke to all facets of life.
Speaker 1: And that is why I have these conversations about sexuality
Speaker 1: and queerness, because these are important aspects of our lives
Speaker 1: that mainstream society would prefer we simply not talk about.
Speaker 1: Later in our discussion, Jen Darante and I dissect the
Speaker 1: Red Table Talks episode about polyamory, and we break down
Speaker 1: the age gap in how non traditional sexualities and relationships
Speaker 1: are perceived by older people versus millennials and the next
Speaker 1: generation who are coming into adulthood. To hear the full
Speaker 1: hour of my three way interview with these amazing intellectual
Speaker 1: polyamorous peeps, head over to patreon dot com slash woke
Speaker 1: f and support this show. By joining woke f Nation,
Speaker 1: you'll get access to hundreds of past shows, including my
Speaker 1: very first interview with the incredible doctor Jen M. Jackson,
Speaker 1: and who knows, this may not be the last time
Speaker 1: you hear from them. Whether I see you next on
Speaker 1: Patreon in the tweets, or on Instagram at D two cents,
Speaker 1: or here on this weekly podcast. Power to the people
Speaker 1: and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay
Speaker 1: woke as fuck.