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Speaker 1: Everybody's Season two have Pardoned My Plate, which is probably

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Speaker 1: one of the better things on the internet, is live

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Speaker 1: on YouTube now hosted by our very own special and

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Speaker 1: lovely and beautiful and who I like to argue with

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Speaker 1: a lot Spencer new Heart. Last year you'll remember I'm

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Speaker 1: pardon my Plate. We tried Carp, Kyle and Coope this

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Speaker 1: season getting ready for Muskrat which as a kid we

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Speaker 1: called scrats, crows, bobcats, goldfish and prepare for this skunk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you heard that right, eating skunk. So go to

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Speaker 1: our channel on YouTube, subscribe and watch this is Me

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Speaker 1: Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten, and

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Speaker 1: in my case, underwear. Listening uncast, you can't predict anything

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Speaker 1: presented by first Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel from

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Speaker 1: Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for every hunt, first Light,

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Speaker 1: go farther, stay longer, All right, everybody? Uh? First off?

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Speaker 1: Brad Tennant is here history professor at Presentation College in Aberdeen,

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Speaker 1: South Dakota, and is described as a Lewis and Clark NERD.

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Speaker 1: Do you prefer expert? I prefer expert? Yeah? What did

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Speaker 1: you did you? Uh? Did you? Are you formally educated

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Speaker 1: in Lewis and Clark. Um. It's just been something that

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Speaker 1: I've grown up with. I grew up about fifteen miles

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Speaker 1: from Missouri River, so very historic area, and Lewis and

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Speaker 1: Clark was always part of the history of the area

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Speaker 1: and also state history. And then as I went into teaching,

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Speaker 1: it was an area that I talked quite a bit about.

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Speaker 1: Did you study up on it in school? Like, did

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Speaker 1: you pursue it for any of your degrees? Not so

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Speaker 1: much in school, But it's when I started teaching that

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Speaker 1: I really started delving into a lot more in detail. Uh, Spencer,

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Speaker 1: you found him right, Yes, he came on a YouTube

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Speaker 1: show that we made um looking at Lewis and Clark

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Speaker 1: catching catfish. And I consider having Brad on this podcast

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Speaker 1: is like one of my greatest career achievements so far.

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Speaker 1: Because you don't think Lewis and Clark are all that cool, No,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I think it's a big government. That's why

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Speaker 1: I like. That's why I like free Trappers. Man was so,

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Speaker 1: what what is it you don't love about Lewis and

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Speaker 1: Clark's big government? Like, now a couple of dudes wander

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Speaker 1: around out there trapping beavers is cool. You already messed

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Speaker 1: it up, Steve, when you say big government, you have

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Speaker 1: to follow it up with I'm not gonna say anything.

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Speaker 1: Just do the research, Okay, exactly. Uh, that's a good point. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm mostly joking. But it's like it's just two or

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Speaker 1: it was. I thought it was too organized. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: with a lot of people too organized. I like the

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Speaker 1: stories about just a couple of dudes, like, for instance,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you're familiar with the fellow named

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Speaker 1: John Coulter Brad, I am uh um. Now his first

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Speaker 1: trip out with Louis Clark whatever, but before he gets back,

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Speaker 1: he joins up with some trappers and turns around and

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Speaker 1: goes back. That's interesting. But I got a question for you.

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Speaker 1: Weren't some of those mountain men involved in some very

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Speaker 1: very like organized, heavily manned expeditions too. Well, that's why

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Speaker 1: Yanni will now educate you on what a free trapper is. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I will. Well, because you know that guy that you

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Speaker 1: used to tell you I saw I like to walk around, yeah,

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Speaker 1: saying that we're all free trappers. We do whatever we

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Speaker 1: want to do. But I don't know if I know

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Speaker 1: the definition you had company. In the Mountain Man area,

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Speaker 1: you had company trappers or brigade trappers, and you had

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Speaker 1: free trappers. And a lot of those famous dudes were

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Speaker 1: both both but linked up with usually started as a

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Speaker 1: company trapper and he became a free trapper, or he

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Speaker 1: could be just a free trapper. And uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: so when you say, like, if if you're going out fishing,

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Speaker 1: you know, and your spouse is like, you're what, you'd

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Speaker 1: be like, I'm free trapper, bro walk out. I'll keep

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Speaker 1: that next time I go fishing. Now, Brad, we got

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Speaker 1: some other stuff to cover before we get to Louis

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Speaker 1: and Clark, like introduced we gotta introduce Tommy, sure, but

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Speaker 1: to titilate Steve for now, what would be like your

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Speaker 1: elevator pitch on why Lewis and Clark are so damn

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Speaker 1: cool now that I dogged on him so much? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think it's a part of the story that still

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Speaker 1: residents today that you know, here we are coming up

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Speaker 1: on Twitter in twenty years and we're still talking about

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Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark on a podcast. I think that tells

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Speaker 1: you a lot. Uh, that's something that has grown because

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Speaker 1: it used to be that you talked about Lewis and

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Speaker 1: Clark expedition, leaving the St. Louis area in May of

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Speaker 1: eighteen o four and coming back in September eighteen o six.

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Speaker 1: Now they've extended the Lewis and Clark Trail all the

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Speaker 1: way back to the east, so it covers a lot

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Speaker 1: more states. Uh goes back to the Ohio Falls when

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Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark first actually joined together as part of

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Speaker 1: this expedition. After all the planning. Uh, there's there's just

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Speaker 1: I always say it's it's a lot of stories. That's

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Speaker 1: not really just one big story. It's a lot of stories,

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Speaker 1: involves a lot of different people, a lot of different places,

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Speaker 1: a lot of different events. Perfect, And we're gonna cover

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Speaker 1: Um in particular. We're gonna I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: the mystery of Um Lewis's death. Yes can I can?

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Speaker 1: I So before we get into storey, I just want

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Speaker 1: to ask you this. Then we're gonna move on to

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Speaker 1: smart stuff for a minute. Are you, uhum and on

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Speaker 1: his death without telling any of the circumstances. Are you

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Speaker 1: leaning suicide? Are you lean in murder? I leaned suicide, Okay,

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure there will be a lot of things

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Speaker 1: that will be discussed today. A lot of things that

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Speaker 1: I'll say that are very controversial. I always tell people

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Speaker 1: that when you go to a Lewis and Clark conference,

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Speaker 1: the nice thing is that everybody's an expert on Lewis

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Speaker 1: and Clark. The bad thing is that everybody's an expert

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Speaker 1: on Lewis and Clark and they never agree. That's what

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Speaker 1: I say. That's one of the things I say about

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Speaker 1: Montana is you have an entire state where everyone's a

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Speaker 1: grizzly expert. Uh. Next to you, Brad is Tommy Edson,

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Speaker 1: who's here for no purpose right now, Nonever. Tommy, tell

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Speaker 1: me what you do for a living. I moved cardboard boxes,

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Speaker 1: work in a big industrial food where Tommy get closer

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Speaker 1: that Mike as though laughing in ice cream cone. I

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Speaker 1: work in a big industrial food grocery warehouse. And on

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Speaker 1: lunch break, what do you do once a week? Well

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Speaker 1: you originally it started on lunch break, but yeah, I

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Speaker 1: played We played Mediator trivia and and Tommy, Me and Tommy,

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Speaker 1: your old fishing buddies from from the Pacific Northwest. Tommy's

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Speaker 1: an excellent fisherman. I've said this in the past. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna just to help tea up Tommy's presence here. I've

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Speaker 1: pointed out multiple times that everywhere you go in this country,

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Speaker 1: everywhere you go, you will find a person who can't

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Speaker 1: who's frustrated because they can't get to it all. There's

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Speaker 1: too much to do outdoorsman, there's too much to do.

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Speaker 1: You can't do it all, can't scratch the surface. And

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Speaker 1: then next door to him is the guy who everything's ruined,

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Speaker 1: the blank are gone, fishing games screwed it up, the

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Speaker 1: wolves got them all, whatever. Tommy's the one that can't

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Speaker 1: scratch the surface. No, too much to do. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: this time of year especially, it's like I'm frozen within decision.

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Speaker 1: I'll get up in the morning planning to go do

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Speaker 1: one thing, man, and I'll be thinking about doing something

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Speaker 1: else the whole way there, you know, because there's just

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Speaker 1: so much to do. And Tommy's always sending me his

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Speaker 1: scores from me either tribute. He's here because we're gonna

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Speaker 1: play triving a little bit, and like last week he

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Speaker 1: beat me, but Yanni beat him. You know, I had

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Speaker 1: seven correct last week. Yeah, Steve's over here spreading all

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Speaker 1: sorts of misinformation that I'd whipped you all every week.

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Speaker 1: That's not true record straight, but he's been posting some

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Speaker 1: strong scores, strong scores, so we had to have him

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Speaker 1: out just to play in person twice now strangers, well,

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Speaker 1: I have walked up to me. It used to be

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Speaker 1: just hey, y'alls, you're honest. Yeah, yeah, I love the

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Speaker 1: saying great. Now that's changed to hey, you're honest. Yeah. Man,

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Speaker 1: yesterday I would have beat you, like really, Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: what the world is these days. Tommy educated me on

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Speaker 1: how to catch surf perch love fishing surf perch man. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: talking to speaking about Lewis and Clark, even though where

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Speaker 1: the trail ends in seaside Oregon, isn't that correct? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: fish surf perch man, a pistol shop from that from

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Speaker 1: that monument. There you go. That's why he is here.

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Speaker 1: See there, Broti's here. And that's like a segue. I

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Speaker 1: was just gonna say, I tied that all in for you.

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Speaker 1: Filled the engineer. Phil looking tight on the haircut, buddy,

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Speaker 1: thanks man, that's great callan same haircut is normal, it's

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Speaker 1: still growing. Spencer, he's he's already perched up for his

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Speaker 1: trivia show later on, but he's here because he found

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Speaker 1: our guest and lobby Bradley. He lobbied heavily on your

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Speaker 1: behalf for years, even before we found the official Lewis

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Speaker 1: and Clark historian. I just wanted a Lewis and Clark historian.

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Speaker 1: Now you're the one, and he's like, now I found him,

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Speaker 1: and I think we were talking about sex on the

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Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark trail. Okay uh. And then of course

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Speaker 1: your honest is here a couple of things Dustin recap.

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Speaker 1: We had Dustin Huff on who just killed the biggest

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Speaker 1: typical not just recently killed the biggest typical white tail

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Speaker 1: ever killed in America. Um, and he was being pretty

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Speaker 1: fast and loose with like landowner names and locations, and

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Speaker 1: we teased them about this, and then he thought better

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Speaker 1: of it, and so we ended up bleeping out the

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Speaker 1: landowner names and locations. Then Dustin huff goes home and

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Speaker 1: posts a screenshot of on X showing exactly where he killed.

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Speaker 1: So it's out. It was an Instagram story. It was

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Speaker 1: available for twenty four hours, so you gotta do some sleuth.

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Speaker 1: And I have a screenshot of it where it's like,

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Speaker 1: here it is, here's the spot, Here's where the tree

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Speaker 1: stand was so he God bless him. I think what

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Speaker 1: Doug during said got into his head dogs, like you

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Speaker 1: know what that buck's gone? Was it ever really a

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Speaker 1: secret though? Any? I mean, come on, probably not. I

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Speaker 1: don't know the buck's gone. Spencer already angled for permission

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Speaker 1: at the guy's sending letters as that trampoline constead Damn

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Speaker 1: called yet man, I was just texting about something different

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Speaker 1: about my summer breaks, like kids taking care of his

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Speaker 1: real intense right now because the summer was staring at

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Speaker 1: my buddy's backyard in Missoula the other day, and big

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Speaker 1: old trampoline out there, every little kid's dream. It's just

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Speaker 1: like covering three inches of old fall foliage. So lets

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Speaker 1: you know how long it's been sitting there unused. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you something. Um, I didn't want trampoline,

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Speaker 1: not for the normal reasons. I think people don't want

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Speaker 1: them because their kids are gonna break their arms on them. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I actually wanted one without the net. Yeah it's hard

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Speaker 1: to find, but I have, but my wife's like it

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Speaker 1: has to have the net. The only reason I didn't

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Speaker 1: want it is because I feel like my kids can

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Speaker 1: have a hard time mowing underneath it, and it's gonna

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Speaker 1: obstruct my archery lane. And the whole point of having

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Speaker 1: a trampoline is so you can like jump off of

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Speaker 1: stuff onto the trampoline or jump off the trampoline onto stuff,

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Speaker 1: and you can't do that with the net. So but

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you this, listeners are probably confused. Steve is

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Speaker 1: getting a trampoline for his kids. That's that's what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about. But here's the thing. I guarantee, because there's

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Speaker 1: trampolines and two directions, two different neighbors have them. Our

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Speaker 1: kids live on those trampolines. This trampoline will get heavy use. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: our neighbors got one, which is the perfect place for it,

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Speaker 1: and then our kids can use it and I don't

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Speaker 1: have to have one in my yard. I was like,

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Speaker 1: point out, though, my wife always thinks that what I

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Speaker 1: take the kids to do, she thinks that stuffs dangerous. Okay, Now,

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Speaker 1: every emergency room visit I've gone on, she got him

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Speaker 1: a swing set, is like two days later, broken arm

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Speaker 1: down the emergency room. Uh, scooters, stitches, legos, stitches every

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Speaker 1: explaining that one the couch, I don't know he fell.

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Speaker 1: He had a lego on a chair and tripped the

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Speaker 1: landing on the gouge a hole in his head. Cal

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Speaker 1: looked at the picture of his head, which had a

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Speaker 1: square hole in it. Cols like, looks like if you

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Speaker 1: pull Lego out of there. And that's before I knew

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Speaker 1: that it was a lego. We're in Mexico. But uh yeah, man,

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Speaker 1: nothing I do ever get them in trouble. Everything like

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Speaker 1: they get injured by I guarantee they'll get injured on

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Speaker 1: the trampoline. It's one child out of three though, is

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Speaker 1: particularly prone to all that. I think everything you mentioned.

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Speaker 1: Jimmy broke his arm on his Matthew gets cuts his

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Speaker 1: head open all the time. He's had three rounds of

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Speaker 1: stitches in his head. Speaking of stitches in the head,

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Speaker 1: four hundred stitches that that little girl got in her

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Speaker 1: head and body after she got attacked by that mountain

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Speaker 1: lion at Washington and the crazy Washington didn't have a

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Speaker 1: lion fatality for ninety eight years and then had their

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Speaker 1: first fatality. Now, that little girl got scratched so, m yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'd call that getting scratched up, maybe a little bit

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Speaker 1: more than scratched up. But what was cool? The reason

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Speaker 1: I'm bringing this up is that Bart George, our buddy.

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Speaker 1: It's doing the research on the mountain lions over there

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Speaker 1: in Washington. He invited the nine year old girl that

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Speaker 1: got attacked by the line out on a uh cat

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Speaker 1: part of the study where they captured the lion and

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Speaker 1: then tranquilize it and then take off the collar. The

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Speaker 1: cat was done with. It's part of the study. And

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Speaker 1: she agreed and she went along. There's a picture of

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Speaker 1: her and she gotta kick it. She gotta what kick it?

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Speaker 1: Kick the cat? Well, it was no, she looked like

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Speaker 1: she was just just happy to be there. But pretty impressive.

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Speaker 1: That's that had to have been like somewhat therapeutic exactly

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Speaker 1: work through the trauma. Yeah, you hope. It was interesting.

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Speaker 1: As I was telling my daughter was about the same

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Speaker 1: age about that, and she's like, wow, that's like a lot.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty crazio felt a little girl. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I could do that after being attacked by that

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Speaker 1: same animal. The pictures that went along with that article

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Speaker 1: when it first came out, when that whole thing broke, man,

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Speaker 1: they were hard to look at. Yeah, did they catch

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Speaker 1: that line and kill it? They got They got it

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Speaker 1: on site right then before DFW even showed up her family.

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Speaker 1: I think just some people that were there. It was Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was at a I believe Russian Bible camp. And

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Speaker 1: Is my buddy that was one of the first guys

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Speaker 1: on scene there said He's like, it was the most

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Speaker 1: well armed Bible camp I've ever been to. And uh

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Speaker 1: yeah that cat Uh he went to the wrong camp. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: this kind of interesting. So we've covered on the show

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Speaker 1: a fair bit like like both sides of picking up arrowheads,

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Speaker 1: Indian arrowheads. Man Felt can make a health segue out

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Speaker 1: of this into into Lewis and Clark. Oh that's up

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Speaker 1: next to you, keep that mine, Johnny. This story has

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Speaker 1: many layers. The Missouri guy. So we've covered the impulse,

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Speaker 1: which is I'm no stranger too, is it You're out

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Speaker 1: winding around there's an arrowhead sitting there and you're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're not like anything. Put in your pocket, bring it home,

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Speaker 1: put it on a shelf, then it winds up in

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Speaker 1: whatever box. Um. We've talked about why that. We've acknowledged

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Speaker 1: the enormous sort of like psychological I don't know, gravity right,

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Speaker 1: the pullsy net direction, and then we talked about the

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Speaker 1: reasons one might not do that, and this fellow named

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Speaker 1: Johnny Lee Brown of Clinton, Missouri just got a little

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Speaker 1: carried away with his arrowhead hunting and is in big trouble.

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Speaker 1: So they were going into prehistoric, prehistoric Native American archaeological sites.

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Speaker 1: I think these are all from the Archaic period, so

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Speaker 1: three thousand and five thousand year old sites using shovel

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Speaker 1: rakes other tools, digging up artifacts. The name of the

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Speaker 1: site is fantastic as well. Hit us with that, the

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Speaker 1: tight Wad site. But it's not because of the site itself.

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Speaker 1: It's because of the name of the town, which is

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Speaker 1: also tight Wad, Missouri. Right. I don't know how I

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Speaker 1: never heard of tight Wad, Missouri neither. I'd love to know.

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Speaker 1: The should have Wikipedia at that for the background. So

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Speaker 1: this guy, Johnny Lee Brown, who's seventy years old, he's

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Speaker 1: still getting out there for seven You think like a

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Speaker 1: seven year old just kind of calming down on crime,

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Speaker 1: you know, don't you know? I think his age is

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Speaker 1: important to point out because like, what's he got left

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Speaker 1: to lose? If you want to go destroy an archaeological site.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of I'm not I'm not making an

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Speaker 1: excuse for him. But it's seventy what's the three fine?

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Speaker 1: I think there's still seventy year olds running running Outlook,

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Speaker 1: it's seven is still getting out, still getting at it,

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Speaker 1: seven years old to co conspirators, and they start going

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Speaker 1: down to this site from June. They're just getting in

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Speaker 1: trouble or just getting you know, it's finalized, getting finalized now.

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Speaker 1: But they were active from June September um looting these sites. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so they believe this is a campsite where they're camping

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Speaker 1: processing stone. They were using handheld trial shovels, rakes, hose, buckets,

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Speaker 1: and backpacks to take items away from the site. The

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Speaker 1: indictment doesn't say what exactly they did with the stuff,

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Speaker 1: but what they are saying is that this illegal excavation

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Speaker 1: caused three hundred thousand dollars in damage, and the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Attorney's office in Kansas City is after the guy. There's

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Speaker 1: there's a a bunch of like interesting tidbits in that

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Speaker 1: story where they're like sometimes they'd be at the site

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Speaker 1: for ten minutes, other times, you know, like many hours,

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Speaker 1: which but at the same time they don't know exactly

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Speaker 1: what they got away with. And I'm like, well, how

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Speaker 1: do you know the timelines and and not know what

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Speaker 1: they got? They don't know where a lot of what

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Speaker 1: they got ended up. How about was fenced or moved,

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Speaker 1: or how they got nabbed, how they got caught? Someone

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Speaker 1: turn them in or I think that must be it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's a lot of some there's some

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Speaker 1: sort of fuzzy documentation there that is probably gonna come

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Speaker 1: out once the case is fully prosecuted, I would imagine,

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Speaker 1: because like reading through the story, you're like, how like

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Speaker 1: how how do you know? And not know? Is what

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Speaker 1: kind of the story reads. But it does overlap with

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Speaker 1: UM a lot of interesting pending legislation that's coming down

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Speaker 1: the pipe right now as far as UM you know,

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Speaker 1: better protections for cultural sites on public ground, on on

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Speaker 1: federally managed ground and state managed ground. I'm reading Carl

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Speaker 1: Malcolm's favorite book. He always he always likes to cringe

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Speaker 1: when I stay it's his favorite book. But he turned

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Speaker 1: thes a book called Black Range Tales. Oh yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's mostly like the memoirs and recollections of a minor,

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Speaker 1: a prospector and miner who is active in the eighteen

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Speaker 1: eighties down in New Mexico in the Black Range, but

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Speaker 1: all around that area. What's funny about is the first pay.

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Speaker 1: I can't say this, never mind, never mind um. He

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Speaker 1: talks about paying turkeys in that book. I almost just

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Speaker 1: gave away a sweet turkey hunting spot. So in there

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Speaker 1: he talks about going in too. We were hunting not

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Speaker 1: far from within the heat, within the heel of wilderness.

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Speaker 1: There's a Pueblo site and we never made it over there.

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Speaker 1: But we're hunting not far from a Pueblo site in

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Speaker 1: the heel of wilderness, and this guy talks about going

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Speaker 1: in there. And so he's talking in the eighties, looting

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Speaker 1: a Pueblo site and him saying how in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: he's saying, how it's picked over and most of the

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Speaker 1: good stuff is gone. But they walk away with a

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Speaker 1: mummified body, but most of the good stuff is picked over.

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Speaker 1: How old was the body? Does it? Say? Just as

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Speaker 1: they had? And he talks about its history. It was

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Speaker 1: sitting in some window. It was sitting in some window

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Speaker 1: at a curio shop in some town in Arizona or

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Speaker 1: New Mexico, can't remember where, And now that no one's

355
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Speaker 1: almost happened to it. But he was talking about in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties Ransack and Pueblo sites and he talks

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Speaker 1: about they're still corn and jars and they didn't even

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Speaker 1: know who the hell right in that year they had

359
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 1: lost track like who the people were? People are so

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Speaker 1: like the fact that in that year it was sort

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Speaker 1: of like a like the looting antiquities, you know, I

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Speaker 1: mean those people who built that fathers and grandfathers were

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Speaker 1: probably engaging with EU Americans the to kind of like

364
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Speaker 1: jump back to like how you come up with that

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Speaker 1: figure of three dollars when you don't really know? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't get that, Yeah, I mean it. It has

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Speaker 1: to be like we always talked about, like why you

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Speaker 1: don't move artifacts because you you're destroying the story that

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Speaker 1: is that the ground holds around the placement of that artifact.

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Speaker 1: And I imagine that has to be part of it. Right,

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Speaker 1: you're digging through all these soil layers, get rid of

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Speaker 1: all the fossilized pollens and things like that, they could

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Speaker 1: also tell a lot more about whatever they're pulling out

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Speaker 1: of the ground. Yeah, it's hard to sign a dollar

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00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 1: alley to it, right, And that's a huge question mark

376
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: of mine for this thing. I wonder if it had

377
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 1: to reach a certain threshold to make it a certain

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00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: level crime. That's a good thinking too. Do you have

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00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 1: any artifacts related to the Lewis and Clark expedition. I

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Speaker 1: do not, but at the Cultural Hair Descent and Pure

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Speaker 1: they do have one of the peace medals and it

382
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Speaker 1: was found and somebody turned it in and offered it

383
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Speaker 1: to the museum, so they have that there. Um, can

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Speaker 1: you can you explain what that is? I'm not ready.

385
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 1: I'm not ready to get this. Yeah, one last thing

386
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Speaker 1: to say, and we'll talk about a rick Raw sites

387
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Speaker 1: along the Missouri River though, because there are a lot

388
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Speaker 1: of fishermen over the years and just other people who

389
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 1: went out along along Lakewaukee the Missouri River, and when

390
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: the river is down, a lot of those rick Raw

391
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 1: village sites are are exposed. And it's easy, I mean,

392
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Speaker 1: you're just it's not a matter of really going out

393
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: and excavating full scale, but it's easy to walk along

394
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,239
Speaker 1: and find a lot of different artifacts and a lot

395
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 1: of buriable remains too. So I remember being a child

396
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Speaker 1: and my mother and father invited out to a farmer's

397
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 1: place for for dinner, and my younger brother and I

398
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: went along and down in the den. There were six

399
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Speaker 1: human skulls that this man had in his den. Now,

400
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 1: of course it's perfect completely illegal today, but those are

401
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 1: the things that are readily available on the Missouri River.

402
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 1: But it is of course illegal, you know, well illegal.

403
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Speaker 1: And there is a case in Washington where a skull

404
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: had eroded out of the out of a bank. Kennewick Man.

405
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: Is that the ken wick Man story? It sounds like it.

406
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: But you know, obviously trying to go to ah they

407
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 1: were trying to get illegal access to watch a riverboat race.

408
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say they were trying to sneak

409
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Speaker 1: in to watch a race and found the kennewick Man.

410
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 1: So a skull run eroding out. But then you know

411
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Speaker 1: the cultural significance of these remains. The tribes are like, well,

412
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Speaker 1: somebody buried this person that is most probably really aided

413
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Speaker 1: to us. It's more than just a crime. It's a

414
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: sacrilegious act. Yeah, well, that's I talked about stories that

415
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: make their own gravy. That story makes his own gravy.

416
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Speaker 1: They find the skull, okay, and they think they're looking

417
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: at like a murder victim. They don't know it's old.

418
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Speaker 1: Someone comes out and realizes it's very old roading out

419
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Speaker 1: of the river winds up. It's like a nine thousand

420
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: it's a very old school. It's like a nine thousand

421
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Speaker 1: year old skull. There's this thing called I can't remember

422
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: what the hell it is, Like, what's that discipline. It's

423
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: a much discredited discipline, forensic or not forensic craniology. Craniology.

424
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 1: People said, you can look at a school and like

425
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: make all these deductions about intelligence and all that. So anyways,

426
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: the guy takes a gander at it, A semi qualified

427
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: individual takes a gander at it and says, hey, man,

428
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: that's a caucasion male skull. That's nine thousand years old.

429
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: So then it introduces this whole crisis about like someone

430
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: trying to say that this thing like that Native Americans

431
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: weren't the origin, like right, that somehow there had been

432
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: Europeans had made it here and pre dated whatever it

433
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: brought into Like, it brought into open up question like

434
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 1: who are the real Native Americans? How could this Caucasian

435
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: person be there? It was so offensive what he was

436
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: saying was so offensive to a tribe that was there.

437
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: I can't remember what tribe it was that occupied that

438
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: land at the time of European contact. That they said,

439
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 1: no one will ever look at this school again and

440
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: put it away. Later it was allowed to be looked at,

441
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: they put it away and they didn't want to view

442
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: because they didn't want this conversation to take hold. Um

443
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: in interesting wrinkle in this that people pointed out, but

444
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: it never got taken seriously, it's nine thousand years ago.

445
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: No one know, like whatever tribe is there now surely

446
00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 1: hadn't even taken form. Like people moved so much yep,

447
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: and every square inch of the country was one and

448
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: fought over by Native American tribes. It wasn't like this,

449
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: Like it wasn't like this monolithic group was like people

450
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: that moved around and waged war with one another and

451
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: conquered lands. But when they went through and did the

452
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: DNA analysis to what they could, right, that's that's exactly

453
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: what it showed. Like several different tribes are like, oh, yeah,

454
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: the this person is a part of now a much

455
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 1: broader community because the genetic uh traits that this person

456
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: has are distributed through this this much wider group. And

457
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: uh the idea that it was a cock like the

458
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: the idea that it was a European or Caucasian thing

459
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: was put to rest. Yeah, so the trip over a

460
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: school when you're trying to sneak into a boat race, Yeah,

461
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: you may not mean knowing what you're tripping over exactly,

462
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: but this does have some good bearing on what we

463
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: hopefully get into later with um. The question of whether

464
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 1: or not to exhume Merryweather lewis right. Oh, I would

465
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: dig him up right now. But I got one last

466
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: thing to add that we're gonna get into. That one

467
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: last thing to add. I was telling you how it's

468
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: gonna become a metal detecting enthusiast because my kids really

469
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: interested metal detectors. We got a melo detector, and we're

470
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: up at the little property where we camp all out

471
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: um and metal detecting round. The kids are hoping to

472
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: find a I don't gonna lie a horse shoe, which

473
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: they found buried quite a bit quite a way is down,

474
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,959
Speaker 1: which is interesting. No, my daughter Rosemary gets a hit

475
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: on the metal detector, and I started digging, and I

476
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: get down about a spade height down and turn the

477
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: ground up and turn up a beautiful half kind of

478
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: a broken but very worked piece of gorgeous black obsidian

479
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: ten inches underground makes you wonder what's high? You know,

480
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 1: what it was that she hit with the metal detector

481
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: struck off of was an old can lid, but like

482
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: just like you're just like never ending right and you

483
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: take a shovel and stick it down to ground and

484
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: turned it over, like oh, there's a part of a

485
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: projectile point and how many like chunks and nail and

486
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: screw and stuff to do. I feel like we found

487
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: a penny that's not that old. But I'm like, that

488
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: penny is forty two years old. They're like, oh my god,

489
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: I feel like the next time we go up there,

490
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: there's just gonna be holes. I started freaking out after

491
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: a while, like, man, you guys gotta fill these holes.

492
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: And they had holes everywhere, and then someone literally tripped

493
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: in the hole. Yeah, yeah, they gotta go back and

494
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: fill damn holes in man. They yeah, they had just

495
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: played pocked with holes. It was funny as there's like

496
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: an old piece of fencing that they must found that

497
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: same string of fencing. Like I'm like, if you notice

498
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: everywhere you're digging is in a line, like you keep

499
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: digging the same hunk of fence out, move right or

500
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: left or whatever to get away from that fence. I

501
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: had I had lost two arrows the year before and

502
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: they found both. Sorry, I had lost three and they

503
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: found two. So far, Yeah, totally fine. All right, right, Brad,

504
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: Already we've been digging a Louis Clark hit me with

505
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: hit me with a brief summation of what it was.

506
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: But here's the trick. You have to include with it,

507
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: how Thomas Jefferson was saying, and if you run into

508
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: a Willie mammoth, let me know, like what set up?

509
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: Like why why do we what was Lewis and Clark

510
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing? You know? For Thomas Jefferson, first

511
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: of all, just prefaces with the comment that you know

512
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: he'd been playing on this for twenty years. You know,

513
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: it wasn't in a situation where a lot of times

514
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: people think, okay, well, Louisiana purchase eighteen o three and

515
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: then sent Lewis and Clark out eighteen o four to

516
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: to investigate this new territory at the United States had

517
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: just acquired. Jefferson had been thinking about this um he

518
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,479
Speaker 1: talked to George Rogers Clark back in seventeen eighty three.

519
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: William Clark's older brother about doing an expedition across the

520
00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: American West. George Rogers clark Um decline for personal reasons

521
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: more than anything else. Sighties six, Jefferson is over in Paris.

522
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: He meets a man from Connecticut by the name of

523
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: John Ledyard. Ledyard says, I'll do this. I'll go from

524
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: France and western Europe. I'll go across eastern Europe and

525
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: go across Asia, come up on the western side of

526
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: North America and then go back to the United States.

527
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: And I'm losing. So he's going all the way around

528
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: by himself. Where was he going to cross the Pacific?

529
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: He was gonna across the Bearing Strait area and then

530
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: land on the west side of North America and then

531
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: coming into the United States from the west, come down

532
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: to Alaska, b c. And he made it as far

533
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: as Russia and the Azarina. At that time Catherine said no, no,

534
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: you're not going to go through. So that was ind

535
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: of that expedition. Did he did part of it? He

536
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: made it into Russia? Are you kidding me? Russia? Who's

537
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: this game? John Ledyard is his name, A guy from

538
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: as Man himself by himself. And you know, I think

539
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: that the story is that he was going to take

540
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: his dog and him and then us. He was going

541
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: to cross the Barring Sea, laying in Alaska and then

542
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: and then work his way back to the United States.

543
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: Right and what stopped him again of the Zarina at

544
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: that time of Catherine. She refused to give him permission

545
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: to Zarina Zariena instead of Bazar. We have the Empress Catherine.

546
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: So she was the one who said no, no, we're

547
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 1: not going to grant your permission to come through Russia.

548
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: You know, it seems like in that time he could

549
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: have said like okay and then just left and kept going.

550
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: One day, I'm coming down between I'm coming, I'm traveling

551
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: south into Missoula. What's that? I pick up a hitchhiker. Okay,

552
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: And he gets in the car and he said, man,

553
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: it's got out of jail. And that made me nervous.

554
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: I said, what were you in jail for it? He

555
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: goes hitchhiking. They let him out of jail. He walked

556
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: out on his hitch like again, so you think he

557
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: would have been like, okay, I understand, but then his

558
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: win about his because like, Russia's a big place, I know,

559
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: it's like what like who would know, right wandering through

560
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: I do. It just also sounds exactly like, um, they're

561
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: being like, yeah, so this is what we want and

562
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: here's the path. And this guy was thinking about doing

563
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: this other trip the entire other time, and he was like, oh, yeah,

564
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: I'll do that, but this is the way I think

565
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: it's gonna work out the bass the trip that I

566
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: already had planned. What was he gonna do if he

567
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: got to I just don't think you should have asked

568
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: permission some other time. It just seems like the weirdest

569
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: move on his part. And part of the funding, of course,

570
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: it is coming from Jefferson in the American Philosophical Society

571
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: to help fund his his trip. But um, you know

572
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: you talked about big government and Lewis and Clark earlier,

573
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: and I'll go along with that too here in a

574
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: little bit. But um, in but one minute, I got

575
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: one more question. Sure, if Jefferson is thinking about this,

576
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: then I mean he just outright defying whoever owned it, right,

577
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: So that's what That's why the permission thing with the

578
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: Russian seems a little funny to me, because it's not

579
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: like the um Spanish, right, the Spanish and California. Was

580
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: that was that who it was at that time. He

581
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: had to get permission from the Spanish, he had to

582
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: get permission from the British. And and actually when Jefferson

583
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: started planning all this, he started pursuing getting visas permission.

584
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: So he was gonna do it like formally, he was

585
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: gonna do it the right way. But he knew that

586
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: there would be resistance from not only people here in

587
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: the United States wondering about the cost of this, and

588
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: then the whole purpose behind it, because it was not

589
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: the United States territory? Why why was this so necessary? Um?

590
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: The other thing is again the question of who controls

591
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: what territory? So that area the Pacific Northwest, he had Russia,

592
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: you had Britain, you had a Spanish, and then of

593
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: course the United States comes along and we're gonna claim

594
00:33:48,680 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: it for ourselves eventually too. If Jefferson was already planning that,

595
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: was he also already thinking about how to get his

596
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: hands on it, right? I mean was that not at

597
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: that point? I mean this is seventeen eighty six was

598
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: the second time where he talked to John Ledyard. He

599
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: just thought that this was something that was important for

600
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: the sake of discovery. You know, he was such a

601
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: inquisitive person. He was so knowledgeable about so many different things.

602
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: He was interested in botany and zoology, he was interested

603
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 1: in American Indians. He you know, he just had such

604
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: a wide range of interest, and he thought this was

605
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: something that was very significant. Seen eight six, we're still

606
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: a very young country. In seventeen ninety three, he contacted

607
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: through the American Philosophical Society with a French naturalist by

608
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 1: the name of Andre Mischou, and he made it as

609
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: far as the Ohio River Valley, and they found out

610
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: that he was actually going to be spying against Spanish

611
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: post and so the United STATESID, no, we're not going

612
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: to get involved with that. Everything you're saying so far

613
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 1: two is decades before Jefferson even becomes president. So what

614
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: were his credentials at this point to like send people

615
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: out on these adventures, his his interests. I mean, you

616
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: have to keep in mind that he was a person

617
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 1: who was a product of the Age of Enlightenment. He

618
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: was just interested in learning as much as he possibly could,

619
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: whether it was about religion or plant life or animal life,

620
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: or or native cultures or whatever it might have been. Geography, geology.

621
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: I mean, he was just such a well rounded person

622
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: from that product of the Age of Enlightenment, that president

623
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: or not. I mean, he just thought that this was

624
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: very important to do, and so when he became the

625
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: third president I had says he was actually in that

626
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: position to do something about it. And that's when we

627
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: started seeing the everything falling in the place might say,

628
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: was there every scenario where he's like, I'm just gonna

629
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: do it myself, or did he not think he was

630
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: like qualified or had the time, or why why wasn't

631
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: he the one doing it? You know, Jefferson never ever

632
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 1: considered himself being a position or a person who would

633
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: undertake such a thing. He that was always something that

634
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: he would find. Tobacco he had. He's a francophile, I

635
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: had book story right, all right, he was. He was

636
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: a person that well read, but not not the adventuresome

637
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: type that was going to go out and undertake an

638
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: expedition like this. There's no way, you said, John Ledyards. Uh.

639
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: He just took off with his dog, which really really

640
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: interests me because I think people love the story of

641
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: dogs and they don't get told very well. So I

642
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: was gonna tell Spencer we got to write this down

643
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: for a future series. And uh, one of the first

644
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: hits on the on the Google machine here is the

645
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: making of John Ledyard Time to Eat the Dogs, which

646
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 1: you can kind of infer as to what happened on

647
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: that trip. But of course Lewis ended up taking his

648
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: dog with him Newfoundland Seamen was the dog's name, and

649
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 1: made it all the way out to the Pacific Northwest

650
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: and back, you know. And at the same time, I

651
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: think one historian figured out that they probably ate over

652
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: two hundred dogs during the expedition. Mm hmm. I have

653
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: all these pictures of eating dogs in Vietnam, and I'm

654
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: alway afraid to put him on social media, but maybe

655
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: that'd be my in as I can mention that in

656
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: honor Lewis and Clark. Uh. Okay, what's next? Well, I

657
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: think we're up to the point now where like Louis

658
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: gets tapped for this adventure right right, he he was

659
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: appointed by Jefferson to be his personal secretary with the

660
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 1: intent that he was going to start learning uh whatever

661
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: he might need to know as far as plant life, medicine, zoology,

662
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: uh and and prepare for this expedition. What did that

663
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: role mean then being a personal secretary, being a right

664
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: hand person, a record like a record keeper, and not

665
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: so much and as far as being a secretary as

666
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: we think maybe in today's context, but a person who

667
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: was an assistant, who would help Jefferson with other plans,

668
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: help him prepare for this expedition. And when the whole

669
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: idea of Louisiana purchase came about later that year, everything

670
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: just fell into place very perfectly. You know, it was

671
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: just you couldn't ask for a better situation. And so

672
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: but the interesting thing is that it was on January

673
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: three that Jefferson delivers his confidential message to Congress asking

674
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: for an appropriation of two thousand, five hundred dollars confidential

675
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: because he knew that there would be a lot of

676
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: people here in the United States. They would also, says,

677
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: to explore some unknown territory at what a government waste, right,

678
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 1: And of course that was an initial appropriation of the amount.

679
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: When you look at it overall, by the time they

680
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 1: came back, and how the men were paid per month,

681
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: and how they received land allotments, you know, you're you're

682
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: looking at this exhibition costing maybe closer to forty year

683
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars back at that time, you know, so

684
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: it would be quite a bit more substantial today. So

685
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: it certainly wasn't a situation really for two thousand, five

686
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 1: hundred dollars they funded this entire expedition. That was just

687
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: simply an initial appropriation they spent. The government has been

688
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: a lot more money. And then with the with the

689
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 1: Louisiana purchase, there's the thing that they've been totally around

690
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: is they ended up selling it to us as sort

691
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: of um like as air strategic move right around. It

692
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: was around like that they were going to lose it anyway. Well,

693
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: you know, the whole idea of the Louisiana Territory. It

694
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: became known as Louisiana territory all the way back to

695
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: two with a Roberto Lacel who claimed that area for

696
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: King Louis the four of France. And then after the

697
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: French and Indian War ended in seventeen sixty three, the

698
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 1: western part, that area west of the of the Mississippi

699
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: River that became Spanish controlled, and then it went from

700
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: Spain back to France right around eighteen hundred with a

701
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: Treaty of Sandolfonso, and that's that's when the United States

702
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: really started becoming war concerned more about having access to

703
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 1: the river and getting through the area of New Orleans.

704
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: And so Jefferson sent Robert Livingston and James Monroe, two

705
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: very notable figures in American history, of course, and to

706
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: negotiate with Napoleon representatives. And so they went over to

707
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: Paris and negotiated. Napoleon had other issues, I mean, he

708
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: was he was thinking about Europe. His his project in

709
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 1: the Caribbean had fallen flat because of disease, and he

710
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: really didn't want that area Louisiana anymore. And so, uh,

711
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: the whole idea was that Jefferson told Monroe and Livingston

712
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: offer go up as high as ten million dollars for

713
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: New Orleans, just for New Orleans. And it was Napoleon

714
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: representatives who came back and said, what about Louisiana territory

715
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: for what turned out to be about fifteen million dollars.

716
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: Now Here, here are two individuals who can't just get

717
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: on the phone and contact Jefferson, say hey, what are

718
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: we supposed to do? You know? So they they went

719
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: ahead and they signed the Louisiana Agreement on April eighteen

720
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: o three, and keep in mind that Jefferson had had

721
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: delivered that confidential message to Congress in January of eighteen

722
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: o three, you know, so he was already planning this.

723
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: But the fact that the Louisiana purchase was signed in April,

724
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 1: and then you have Jefferson's really well known instructions to

725
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: Jefferson on June eighteen o three and say, hey, this

726
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: is what I want you to do. I want you

727
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: to study this and this and this and this, all

728
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,439
Speaker 1: these very specific directions. It wasn't until around the fourth

729
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: of July eighteen o three when news of Louisiana purchase

730
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: arrived in Washington, d C. And even at that Jefferson

731
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: can't make that kind of agreement. He's the president. Treaties

732
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: have to be ratified by the Senate, and it wasn't

733
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: until October of eighteen o three that the Senate finally

734
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: ratified the Louisiana treaty. Well, now it all makes a

735
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: lot more sense, you know, we have you know, we

736
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: double the size the United States, and so it makes

737
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 1: more sense to go out and explore it, certainly. But

738
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: it's just the idea that so many people think that

739
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: we bought it and then we decided that He's like, well,

740
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: I bought it now put together by October. By the

741
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: time the treaty was ratified, uh Lewis and Clark were

742
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: already making all kinds of of plans and and uh

743
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: they were, you know, like I said, they met at

744
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: the Ohio Falls and and I went down to the

745
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: Wood River area, and they're going to spend the winter

746
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: of eighteen o three to eighteen o four recruiting soldiers

747
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: to go along with him. You know, when when uh

748
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: Lewis was first thinking about this, Jefferson that well, and

749
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 1: you know, if you take a take ten or twelve

750
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: men with you. You know, from the time they left

751
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: the Missouri up until the the Hadats and the Mandan

752
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: and the rick Raw villages in North Dakota, it was

753
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: closer to four dozen. Because you had the two captains,

754
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: actually Captain merrywether Lewis Lieutenant William Clark, although they both

755
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: went by captains. You had three sergeants. Initially, the one sergeant,

756
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: Charles Floyd, was the only member the expedition to to

757
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: die along the way. He was replaced by a vote

758
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 1: of the men. Uh and he was replaced by Patrick Gass.

759
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: You had about two dozen privates and they Wasn't Prior

760
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 1: was prior officer. He was one of the sergeants, Nathaniel Prior. Right,

761
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: you had initially John Wardway who was really the third

762
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: in command. Or you want to look at Lewis and

763
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 1: Clark as being the co commanders, certainly John Ord where

764
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: Sergeant John Order would have been the next in command.

765
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: And then you have um Charles Floyd, the one who

766
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: died of a penacitis attack is what they believed by

767
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: Sioux City. And then you had Nathaniel Prior, and then

768
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: Patrick ass was one who replaced Charles Floyd later by

769
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: vote of the of the men. And when they were

770
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: doing this recruiting, they were strategically trying to get unmarried

771
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 1: men with no families, right, that was that was a

772
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: big part of it. And these are people from you know,

773
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: they look at a UM George Shannon, for example, he

774
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 1: was in his late teens. You know, he was very young. Uh.

775
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: He has the notorious reputation of being the guy who

776
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: got lost more often than anybody else. Uh. But you

777
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: have George Shannon, then you have Lewis and Clark who

778
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: are in their late twenties early thirties. Uh, you have

779
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: Louis celebrating his thirty first birthday in August of eighteen

780
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: o five. You know, like Seth and Chester, they're young,

781
00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: they're young Halliday Spencer, It's like you, now, what what

782
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: did uh fifteen million dollar transaction look like then? Were

783
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: we like shipping them a literal boatload of money or

784
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: was there some assets? How does that happen? No, it's

785
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: it's just basically through the funding over a period of time,

786
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: So it wasn't one big lump sum or anything like that.

787
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: The other thing that I think is really important to

788
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: point out for fifteen million dollars, what did the United

789
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: States actually acquire political authority? We did not buy any land.

790
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: A lot of times people think about fifteen million dollars.

791
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 1: We we double the size physically double the size the

792
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: United States. If that had been the case, then there

793
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: would never have been a need for any other treaties

794
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: with Indian nations to acquire land, like the the Laramie

795
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: Treaty of eighteen sixty eight or anything like that. But

796
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: we spent way more than fifteen million dollars. When you

797
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: look at the nineteenth century and all the different treaties

798
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: for land that the United States entered into with different

799
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: Indian nations. It's so funny. We were told, you know,

800
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: every year by a new teacher in Montana growing up,

801
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: that we were acquired the Louisiana purchase for a penny

802
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: and acre. Anytime you can get land for a penny

803
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: and acre, it doesn't matter if it's pick it up

804
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: when you know, when you look at it. Overall, it

805
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: was the political authority because it had gone from the

806
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 1: French to the Spanish back to the French, and now

807
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: the United States had the political authority. And that was

808
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: one of the things that Lewis and Clark were supposed

809
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: to do when they engage with these different Indian nations,

810
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: they're supposed to say, you are now under American authority.

811
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: Don't don't trade with the British, don't trade with the Spanish,

812
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: don't trade with anybody else. You trade only with American

813
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: traders from now on. You are now under the United

814
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: States authority. They're like, you guys all look the same guy. Yeah,

815
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: you can imagine if someone sold you uh political authority

816
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: over the northwest region of of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Okay,

817
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: so someone sells you the political authority over it there's

818
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: still a bit of work to be done there. I mean,

819
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of you were gonna be like

820
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: what or what now? You know, this is going like

821
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: way beyond the expedition now, But did we ever consider

822
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 1: selling it back or selling it to someone else? No,

823
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: it was ours and we were keeping it right absolutely,

824
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: and in fact now the incentive was to keep going,

825
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: you know, to claim that territory of the Pacific Northwest

826
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: and eventually look at the the American Southwest and acquiring

827
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: that too, which which we did. Uh by the eighteen forties,

828
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: you know, the late eighteen forties, there was just one

829
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: big step as far as American expansion westwards. Certainly, so

830
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: when Louis was tapped to do this, he had to

831
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: like be a botanist and an archaeologist and a hunter

832
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 1: and a politician and a fisherman, an artist and a doctor.

833
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: Did he have those skills before he was chosen for

834
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: this job or did he like gain those qualifications after

835
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: it was decided he gained those because a lot of

836
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: people were very critical of why Lewis, and Lewis is

837
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: not a trained naturalist. He doesn't know anything about plants

838
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 1: or animals, you know, why why why choose him to

839
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,240
Speaker 1: leave the Sex But edition. But when he was chosen

840
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: and the expedition started to be planned, one of the

841
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: things that Jefferson did is arranged for him to go

842
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: to Philadelphia and to be basically tutored with a number

843
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: of individuals to learn about. For example, Benjamin Smith Barton.

844
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: He was the one who who tutored Jefferson on how

845
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: to preserve different specimens where there's plants specimens or animal

846
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: specimens anything like that. So he was very important about it. Uh,

847
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: you have Casper Wistar, who was very interested in paleontology,

848
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: you know, so to bring out questions like okay, now

849
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: if you find animals that we think are extinct back here,

850
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 1: you know, we want you to be especially on the

851
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: lookout for those, you know, are there still mammoths or

852
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: masodon's out there or anything like that. Not that he

853
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: knew or or fully expected that there was, but that

854
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: was one of the things that you know, if you're

855
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: out there, this is what we also want you to

856
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: to look for any signs of of of animals that

857
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: might be extinct. By now you have Dr Benjamin Rush,

858
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: who again a very well known in person from the

859
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 1: American Revolutionary period, and he was considered to be the

860
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: pre eminent physician at the time. Uh. And one of

861
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: the things that, of course you think of with with

862
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: Rush and the Lewis and Clark expedition is that Lewis

863
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: arranged to take fifty dozen of Russia's pills with them. Now,

864
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: these Russia's pills, these were these were kind of Lewis's

865
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 1: cure all. You know, he did learn some medical things

866
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: from from Russia, certainly, but the whole idea is that, oh,

867
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: you're not feeling well, Um, you have loose bowel movements. Here,

868
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: take Russia's pills. What were the pills. They were loaded

869
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 1: with a lot of mercury. They were super powerful laxatives. Uh.

870
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 1: They called them Russia's thunderbolts. And in many cases, if

871
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: you're dealing with stuff like dysentery, absolutely the last the

872
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: worst thing that you should possibly be taking is Russia's thunderbowls.

873
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 1: You know, the thunderbowls, thunderclappers. They were there, these really

874
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: powerful laxatives. But that's what Lewis did. You're not feeling well,

875
00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 1: here to take take these, take some of these, and

876
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: that they think it would clear out that and blood letting,

877
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: where two of his main medical practices. What was that

878
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 1: with leeches or just with cutting you um, the cutting

879
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: that they had, the actual basins that you would rest

880
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: your arm on and they would cut your wrist and

881
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: let it bleed out and try to get some of

882
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 1: that bad blood out of your system. And and again

883
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: to medical practices that were probably the most common, and

884
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: yet they were they were probably medical practice that you

885
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 1: probably surprised, Wow, we didn't kill some of our own men.

886
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 1: I had often read that. Uh, you'll see where they

887
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: say the only physical evidence left of the expedition is

888
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: where Clark carved his name into Pompey's pillar. Okay, east

889
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: of Billings, Montana. Right then, someone said no, because at

890
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: the at the camp site, at the where Lolo Creek

891
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: flows into the Bitter Root Traveler's Rest, they found traces

892
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: of that mercury. Is that true? That's that's one of

893
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: the things that archaeologists look for, you know, depending where

894
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: you are on the Lewis and Clark Trail, I mean

895
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 1: through South Dakota. We know that they went to Spirit

896
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,959
Speaker 1: Mound now in the very southeastern part of the state.

897
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: But other than that, we have four dams along the

898
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 1: Missouri River in South Dakota now that have created these

899
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: huge lakes, and so things like a Rick Rick Aros

900
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 1: villages are now inundated by by Lake Hawaii, for example.

901
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: But when archaeologists looked to find a possible camp site,

902
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: and keep in mind this is a military expedition, and

903
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:34,800
Speaker 1: so even when they set up camp, it had to

904
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 1: be set up a certain way, which meant that even

905
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: the latrine area was a certain distance from the main camp.

906
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: And because they took so many of these russiest pills

907
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: and and even the sad that they used for treating

908
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: the men who had syphilis had so much mercury in

909
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: at that when archaeologists start looking into the ground, if

910
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: they can find a heavy concentration of mercury, they oh,

911
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 1: this might be one of the latrine areas of the

912
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark expedition. So that that use of mercury

913
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 1: back then was was very common and they used it

914
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: a lot. Okay, uh all right, back when they picked

915
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: their guys, they went up with some some some rascals,

916
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: they did, uh uh. They they had some really good

917
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: qualified individuals, certainly, but there were there were because it

918
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: was a military expedition. They had at least at least

919
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 1: seven different court martials along the way, and you know,

920
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: some of it varied from sleeping on duty, which was

921
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: a serious offense. Some of it was just a few

922
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 1: days after the expedition began. Two the men went back

923
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: and and got drunk, and so they had to pay

924
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 1: the price. Uh. You have Moses Reed, who was a

925
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: deserter who was finally caught and he was punished accordingly.

926
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 1: He had to run the gauntlet four times with a

927
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,439
Speaker 1: cat of nine tails. Every man had one of those,

928
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: and he had to run that gauntlet four times. That

929
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: means getting lashed. Getting lashed, Yeah, here ran right through

930
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 1: them and they every person had to strike him and

931
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: they did that four times to him. And the thing, yeah,

932
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: cat of nine tales the whips with the nine different

933
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: strings on the end, and so it's not being struck

934
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: just by one whip, it's really being struck by nine

935
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: at the same time. And he had to do that.

936
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: Every item used for other than this gauntlet. It was

937
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 1: a military expedition that was that was absolutely such a

938
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,879
Speaker 1: bizarre thing. A trip like that, Why would you want

939
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: somebody there who doesn't want to be there? I was like,

940
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: all right, see you and uh, you know. The last

941
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: one was John Newman, who was accused of mutinous expressions

942
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: when they reached when they reached the rick Raw villages

943
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: in October. They spent October eight through the twelfth with

944
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 1: the rick Raw north central part of South Dakota, and

945
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: John Newman was at any time they had these court martials.

946
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: It was a trial of your peers. Lewis and Clark

947
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 1: were not involved. The sergeants. One of the sergeants presided,

948
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: you had the men, some of the men who served

949
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: as a jury, and they determined if a person was

950
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 1: guilty or not. And John Newman was found guilty and

951
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: he was given seventy five lashes on the bare back.

952
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: And the thing that the nine tails, cat of nine

953
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 1: tails exactly, and there was a them no, I mean,

954
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: just just have one just for you. I'm pretty sure

955
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 1: there was one in in a shop down here on

956
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: Main Street were Adam and Eves store, a little through

957
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: store down there on Main Street yesterday a cat of

958
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: nine tails. I'm pretty sure that's what that was down

959
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 1: there in the bottom of the case. I didn't inspect

960
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: it through, I don't think that and hanging on the wall.

961
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: But the books. Yeah, they had these uh these the

962
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: leather swimsuits with the little studs and stuff right next

963
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: the magic right next to that. Well that even even

964
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: at that when they were punished, you know, the one

965
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: a rick Row leader, eagle Feather, he started wailing because

966
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 1: he could't imagine, why are you punishing one of your

967
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: own people like this. It's one thing when you punish

968
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 1: the enemy because they're the enemy, But to punish one

969
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: of your own people like that, he just couldn't understand

970
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: why they would even do such a thing. And the

971
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: thing of it is that when whenever these men received

972
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: you know, twenty five lashes, fifty lashes, one hundred lashes,

973
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: a newman received seventy five lashes, It's not like, okay,

974
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: well you have a couple of days to recover. No,

975
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: you're back to work. You know you're not gonna get

976
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 1: a few days off from manual labor because you did

977
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: something wrong. What was his mutinous expression? It doesn't really

978
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: say you. And the journalist says that he was mutinous expressions,

979
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: and so he said, so I'm like, you know, what

980
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 1: we ought to do? Is his head back on, you know,

981
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: something that he was told to do something he'd he disobeyed,

982
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 1: and he was he was very for Newman. He was

983
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 1: very apologetic. He because he was dismissed from the expedition.

984
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 1: He was sent back in April of eighteen oh five,

985
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: and he really did work extra hard to try to

986
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,399
Speaker 1: make amends and everything. But they said, no, no, it's

987
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 1: too late, you know. So whatever he said, whatever he did,

988
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 1: that qualified as mutinous expressions. It was enough for them

989
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: to say. And maybe it was just the fact that

990
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: they're setting an example that no, when you're told to

991
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: do something, you have you have to do something. I mean,

992
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: it was a military expedition. I don't flogg this to

993
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: continue flogging about the flogging, but like, do they are

994
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:16,760
Speaker 1: there reports of like how bad the uh, the wounds

995
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: were from getting something like seventy five they would have

996
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: to be pretty severe, yeah, I mean, and like open

997
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,360
Speaker 1: wounds and something that we might even stitch up today.

998
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 1: And then of course having somebody like Lewis Prood provides

999
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:33,919
Speaker 1: have to try to speed the healing and everything. But yeah, yeah,

1000
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 1: it's a lot of the stabb said Mercury. Like I said,

1001
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 1: for when they treated them in with syphilis, A lot

1002
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: of that sabb had had a lot of mercury in

1003
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: it as well. But yeah, they it was a military

1004
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 1: expedition first and foremost. How many of the guys that went,

1005
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: we're in the military prior to getting enlisted, Like Coulter

1006
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: wasn't a military guy. No, Um, most of them were.

1007
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: Like I said, there were at least two and privates

1008
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:05,760
Speaker 1: that were already in the middle recruiting from the military.

1009
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 1: But then you have other people like George drewry Or,

1010
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 1: who was noted for being the best hunter of the group,

1011
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: and he he was. He was brought along for not

1012
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: only for his hunting proficiency, but also the fact that

1013
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: he he could do sign language, and so knowing that

1014
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 1: they would meet dozens of different groups of people, having

1015
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 1: that ability to have sign language was considered to be

1016
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: very important. Drewyer was was French Canadian on his father's

1017
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 1: side and Shawnee on his mother's side. There was a

1018
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: universal sign language. It was very common. Yeah, actually a

1019
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: lot of the mountain men had this universal sign language.

1020
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: But at the same time you have to think how

1021
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: well did this really convey what they were saying. I mean,

1022
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: you start talking about the white father in Washington, d C.

1023
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's all foreign and how do you

1024
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 1: how do you actually put that into a sign language.

1025
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: So the whole idea of using gestures was used, but

1026
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: there was there was a lot of confusion with it,

1027
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,839
Speaker 1: and they were fortunate they did have interpreters along the way,

1028
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: people whom they met along the way who served as interpreters,

1029
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: and so in some cases that proved to be very important.

1030
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: In other cases, when you talk about to San Charboneau

1031
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 1: and Chicago, wea, and I'll say Chicago, we have because

1032
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: there will be other people who will say Sacajawea. But

1033
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 1: in the case of to San Charboneau and Chicago, wea,

1034
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: you have it going from English to French to Hadotza

1035
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: eventually to Shoshone. And then if you're gonna have a reply, now,

1036
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 1: I asked, go from Shoshone to Hadotza to French to English.

1037
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: And you have to wonder how much is lost in

1038
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: that communication when you're trying to translate it. That many

1039
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 1: times there were new things at it in absolutely can

1040
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: we narrow win on Chicago and her husband for a minute? Uh,

1041
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 1: my kids brought home from the library. They brought home

1042
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: a book. Um, it was kind of like highlighting different

1043
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: Western figures. I came right at the hell of the book.

1044
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: But I remember this chapter and it talked about not

1045
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 1: only how little is known about her, but it talked

1046
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: about how she became like the individuals throughout American history

1047
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: who elevated her to the position that she is. And

1048
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: it laid out in very simple short form like here

1049
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: is what is actually known about this person. I was

1050
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: shocked how little is known about her. Absolutely, they don't

1051
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: know she lived to be old age. It's like she

1052
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 1: was a teen, right, she's a teen bride right? Well,

1053
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: like what is like? I couldn't believe how little is

1054
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: known about her? And then what people have extrapolated from

1055
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 1: that exactly there there's a lot of controversy when I

1056
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, it was sacka Jewiah with

1057
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 1: a J And now most historians will say, psychago wea

1058
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna stick with Sacha out of this area

1059
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 1: whole day lifetime that now in this area is gonna

1060
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: sacka Jerwia. I mean she she was born in the

1061
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: area of sam And, Idaho. And and you know, so

1062
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: I just uh twice I've been to the Wind River

1063
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 1: Indian Reservation where they have the Saka Juwia Cemetery, and

1064
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 1: they talked about how she was very significant to the

1065
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 1: Lews and Clark expedition. Um, she was a guide, she

1066
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: was interpreter, her presence was important, all these different things.

1067
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: Most historians again will say that it was probably Psychagowa,

1068
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: which means something completely different. Saka Juwia is a Shoshone word,

1069
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: which she was Shoshoni. She was probably eleven or twelve

1070
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: years old when she was taken by by the Haddatzas.

1071
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 1: But like she was kidnapped in the act of war right, right,

1072
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: she was sold to The story is at Toussaint won

1073
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 1: her in gaming, like one of the one or whatever,

1074
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 1: and well, yeah, they had a different uh different games

1075
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 1: of gambling of a risk, you know, like which hand

1076
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 1: is it in and you know things like that, and uh,

1077
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 1: that's very simple. It's not like he fell in love

1078
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: with her. He won her through gambling. Well, let's back

1079
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: up it. We now know that she was born in

1080
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: Salmon around Salmon, right, a rating party of Hadazza right

1081
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 1: kidnapped her whenever, and she ended up eventually with the

1082
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: Mandan and the Hadatsa villages. When Lewis and Clark came

1083
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: across her actually through through to San Charboneau. Again she

1084
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: was probably he had one her gambling right, and he

1085
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: had had two eyes with her at one at that time.

1086
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 1: And that was the thing. You know, which one is

1087
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: buried in in on the Wind River Indian Reservation and

1088
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 1: which one died in north central South Dakota at Fort Manuel. Lisa.

1089
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 1: Uh was not get ahead of ourselves, okay. So it

1090
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 1: was she's pregnant when they encounter her, right, Uh, she

1091
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 1: was pregnant. She was probably seventeen or eighteen years old

1092
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: at that time, and on she was having a very

1093
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 1: difficult time with the delivery of the child. And one

1094
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 1: of the interpreters are one of the Frenchmen who were

1095
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: at the camp of the time in ata Psalm. He said, well,

1096
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 1: he's seen it happen where you take the addle of

1097
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: a snake and you grind it up to powder and

1098
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 1: you diluted with water and have the woman drink that.

1099
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,959
Speaker 1: They did that and shortly thereafter she gave birth. About

1100
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: so whether it whether it worked or not, I mean,

1101
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 1: it's it's sad to say, but that was February eleven,

1102
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 1: eighteen o five that Jean Baptiste Sharbonneau was born then.

1103
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: But but they wanted Louis and Clark wanted Charbonnet to

1104
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 1: accompany them because he was fluent in a couple of languages. Correct,

1105
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: he was fluent in a couple of languages. But the

1106
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 1: fact that his his wife's Chicago Wea was was sho Shone,

1107
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 1: they knew that that was probably gonna be the next

1108
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: nation whom they would meet. And they knew that the

1109
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: farther west they would go, the more likely they were

1110
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 1: to come into contact with the Indians who had horses.

1111
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 1: And so they realized that it's nice to have Charbonne along,

1112
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 1: but it's really nice to have his wife come along too,

1113
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 1: to have Icago wig along. And then they knew this.

1114
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: They knew about the shi because of just the knowledge

1115
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 1: of trade networks, especially with those Uh village cultures, the

1116
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 1: rick around the hadants Uh in the Man then those

1117
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 1: were those were centers, trade centers, and they would be

1118
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 1: groups from a wide area that would eventually come in

1119
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: and they would trade in those areas and then they'd

1120
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,560
Speaker 1: go back to their their locations. And so, yeah, they

1121
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 1: knew about the Shoshony, they knew about the Cheyenne, they

1122
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 1: knew about uh, all the other different groups that they

1123
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 1: traded extensively, and so they knew that, yeah, here's here's

1124
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: uh their bit of advice. You know, the farther north

1125
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 1: or farther west you go, you were come in contact

1126
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: with tribes that will have horses, and the Shoshoni will

1127
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: be one of those. And that that proved to be

1128
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: one of the most fascinating stories, I guess is when

1129
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: the Lewis and Clark expedition met with the Shoshony after

1130
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 1: they left April seventh, they went April, May, June, July.

1131
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 1: It wasn't until August before they finally saw another human

1132
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 1: being and that was the Shoshoni nation. And that's when

1133
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 1: that's not another human being, right, nobody. There was one

1134
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 1: story where they said that Lewis and three of the

1135
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 1: men were going in advance and they saw a person

1136
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 1: on horseback, and so Lewis was pretty excited and he

1137
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: had asked Chicago, wea before, how do you say white

1138
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: man in Shoshone? And of course through the translations, that

1139
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 1: came out taba bone. And so as Lewis is approaching

1140
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: this person on horseback, he rolls up his shirt sleeve

1141
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 1: and he yells out taba bone, taba bone, trying to

1142
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 1: indicate that he's a white person. Well, the person takes

1143
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 1: off and run, takes off and on his horse on

1144
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 1: in a different direction. And I've come to find out

1145
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: that you know what, if you've never seen a white man,

1146
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 1: there probably isn't a word for white man. Taba bone

1147
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: was a Shoshony word meaning stranger. So here he is

1148
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 1: approaching this person yelling I'm a stranger, I'm a stranger,

1149
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 1: and the person takes off, which which makes sense. Later

1150
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: others joined came in and confronted a lois what area

1151
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 1: were they passing through? They went that many months, don't

1152
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 1: conjuring anyone all on the Missouri at this point. I

1153
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 1: mean they left like a April seven and there was

1154
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: months going up the Missouri River, and and uh, that's

1155
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 1: like my dream hunting or fishing trip. Like you when

1156
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 1: you leave and you're like, god, there's still nobody here.

1157
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: Smallpox was ripping out ahead of them. Back in the

1158
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 1: seventy nineties there was a huge smallpox epidemic and that

1159
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 1: had really decimated the Areca people quite a bit. I

1160
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: mean that at one point there were probably thirty two

1161
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:20,439
Speaker 1: Aricaw villages when luc and Clark meet them. There's three

1162
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, so a lot of those populations that had

1163
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 1: died because of the small box. The next big small

1164
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 1: pox up it could be in the eighteen thirties. I

1165
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 1: just want to finish up on Zach. Did you were

1166
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 1: real quick? Sure? Uh? In your mind? No one really

1167
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 1: knows the answered this. But she's kidnapped as a child,

1168
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: which was common practice, and then get some semblance of

1169
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 1: freedom when she gets won by Charbonneau. What would have

1170
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 1: prevent to someone from saying I am gonna go back home?

1171
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 1: Is it just it's so far. I think part of

1172
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 1: it being so young when she captive in this guy.

1173
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 1: And I think part of it too, is that this

1174
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: is the social expectations that she is now property of

1175
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 1: this particular person. I hate to use the term married,

1176
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 1: because she was really more more of the property than

1177
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: anything else. So when they when they take off and

1178
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 1: they eventually get to the Shoshonee, Lewis and has been

1179
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 1: are there first. A day or two later, Clark shows

1180
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 1: up and Skaga we as with them, and they're they're

1181
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 1: excited because you know she's going to be able to

1182
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: speak language. And as they sit down to negotiating, and

1183
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 1: they're gonna, you know, go through their whole spield as

1184
01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: far as you're now un American authority and everything, but

1185
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 1: they're also interested in acquiring horses to get over the mountains.

1186
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, Chicago Wea leaps up and

1187
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 1: she gives out this this exclamation, and she goes over

1188
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 1: and she realized that the shohon A leader is her brother,

1189
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 1: whom she has not seen since she's kidnapped at the

1190
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 1: age eleven or twelve, So that her brother come Await

1191
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: was the leader of the showny. And again, you could

1192
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,680
Speaker 1: write a novel better for that, the fact that now

1193
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: they know, okay, we're gonna get her horses, We're we're

1194
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 1: gonna be okay, we'll get people to guide us over

1195
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 1: the mountains, and everything else. Because of this connection between

1196
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 1: Chicago Weea and come Await, this thing I read about

1197
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: what's actually known about her, it got into that, and

1198
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 1: it got into this other very telling This very telling

1199
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 1: thing about her that's sort of like helped form the

1200
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 1: mythology around her is that when they get close to

1201
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: the Pacific, there's some reason why they're gonna go look

1202
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 1: at it. But she's not invited to go look at it.

1203
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: But he even points out in his journal she wanted

1204
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,200
Speaker 1: so badly to see the ocean, and he's like, she

1205
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 1: came all this way, how could we deny her? And

1206
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: so that is where stem this like explorer curiosity, right

1207
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: that he like, because they're so sparse with what they

1208
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 1: talk about with personnel, the fact that he like took

1209
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 1: note of it suggests that there was this, right, this

1210
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 1: intense curiosity in her. Right, Yeah, you're right that there

1211
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 1: there's actually when you read through the journals, there's very

1212
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 1: few references to her, or they might just refer to

1213
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,360
Speaker 1: charbonas a woman. They might refer to the snake woman,

1214
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: the Shoshone woman. Um. At one point they did call

1215
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:26,280
Speaker 1: the river bird woman's river, which in the Hadatsa language

1216
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: that would be ssicago wea. And that's the only time

1217
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 1: in the journals that I know of where they actually

1218
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 1: tried to spell it phonetically with a hard G sound,

1219
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 1: cicago weia, you know. And then of course in North

1220
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 1: Dakota they use the case ocakawa, you know. So, but

1221
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 1: with what you're talking about, you know, as far as

1222
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 1: a guide, which is what they started getting into her

1223
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:50,919
Speaker 1: homeland area, she they started, she started to recognize certain

1224
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 1: places like Beaverhead Rock for example. Um, and it's one

1225
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 1: of those that when you come around the curve, you're think, oh,

1226
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 1: that must be beaver Rock because it looks just like

1227
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 1: a beaver said. You know, So she you some of

1228
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 1: those places where she grew up. Has you ever been

1229
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:06,280
Speaker 1: to the Pacific? No, she had never been to Pacific before,

1230
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 1: and so when she gets out the Pacific, there's there's

1231
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 1: a couple of very notable things. One that you're talking

1232
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:13,480
Speaker 1: about is that there is a whale that's washed up

1233
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: on the on the shore. She wants to see this,

1234
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 1: you know. She she's heard them talking about this, and

1235
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 1: so she wants to go and actually look at this

1236
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 1: huge fish. This the whale that had had washed up

1237
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:26,640
Speaker 1: on the shoreline. And she was pretty demanding that this

1238
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:28,839
Speaker 1: is what she wanted to do, and so they allowed

1239
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 1: you to go and see it. Um. The other thing

1240
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 1: that was very interesting, and this is where she really

1241
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 1: develops her legacy, is that there's not a whole lot

1242
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 1: about her in the journals per se, but it's in

1243
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 1: the late nineteenth century when she really becomes kind of

1244
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:47,639
Speaker 1: the heroine of the women's suffrage movement, because in November

1245
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 1: of eighteen o five, when they get out to the

1246
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 1: Pacific northwest, of trying to decide, okay, we're gonna put

1247
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 1: our winter quarters and Lewis and Clark, even though it's

1248
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 1: a military expedition, they could have just simply said, Okay,

1249
01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 1: this is the way it's going to be. They went around,

1250
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:01,680
Speaker 1: and some people call it a vote. Some people say no,

1251
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: they just took a poll, semantics. But they went around.

1252
01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:07,680
Speaker 1: They asked all the members of the exhibition, except for

1253
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 1: the child, of course, where they thought the winter quarters

1254
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:13,880
Speaker 1: should be, which meant that they asked Chicago Wea, a

1255
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:19,639
Speaker 1: young teenage American Indian woman, what she thought, not even married.

1256
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 1: But it's point but it's it's pointed out that they

1257
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 1: did ask her, or they that that they conducted a

1258
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 1: poll that or vote, however you want to say it.

1259
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: And UH asked all the members and the two most

1260
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:36,719
Speaker 1: notable was Chicago Wea because American Indians, of course, weren't

1261
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,720
Speaker 1: collectively considered American citizens until until ninety four, so this

1262
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 1: is long before that, this is eighteen o five. And

1263
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 1: the other one is that, of course, UH women not

1264
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:49,719
Speaker 1: having the right to vote until the ninethe of Mement

1265
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty. You know, so this is years and

1266
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 1: years beyond the opportunity for women to actually vote. But

1267
01:09:56,360 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 1: I gotta re ask my question. Sure do they say

1268
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 1: that they specifically included her in the voting? Okay, that's

1269
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:06,880
Speaker 1: what I was curious, because they might have said we

1270
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 1: asked everybody, but then in fact didn't even ask her.

1271
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,479
Speaker 1: Christian was a woman. Because it's also noted that York

1272
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 1: gets input as well, which ends up being like the

1273
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 1: first time a black person got to vote in America

1274
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 1: exactly eighteen o five. And again you look at it.

1275
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 1: Slavery wasn't abolished until the Thirteenth Amendment in eighteen sixty five,

1276
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 1: So this is sixty years before slavery is abolished. And

1277
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 1: then you look at the fifteenth AMENDMA, the granted African

1278
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 1: American men the right to vote. Well, that was until

1279
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,720
Speaker 1: eighteen seventies, so this is sixty five years before um,

1280
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 1: black men could vote. We better hit on this real

1281
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:39,439
Speaker 1: quick now that we're put in sacke we behind us

1282
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:41,679
Speaker 1: in the story for a minute. They had a slave.

1283
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 1: Was his workload different than everybody else's workload? No? Um,

1284
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 1: he he was actually a childhood friend of Clark's. They

1285
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:51,160
Speaker 1: grew up together. When Clark was asked to go along

1286
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:53,639
Speaker 1: with this expedition, it's just the only the same natural

1287
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 1: that his servant, York would would come with him. But

1288
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 1: he's not on payroll. He's not on payroll. But in

1289
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:00,719
Speaker 1: a in a way, he becomes is one of the guys.

1290
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:03,559
Speaker 1: I mean, he's allowed to go hunting. Slaves aren't allowed

1291
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 1: to carry weapons, you know, but he's allowed to go hunting.

1292
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:09,640
Speaker 1: He becomes one of the guys. He he becomes a

1293
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 1: very notable member of the of the expedition, and at

1294
01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:16,280
Speaker 1: the same time, when they return, he goes back to

1295
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 1: being part of slave life. You know that Clark even

1296
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 1: at one point said that he had to uh punished

1297
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:25,680
Speaker 1: York to keep him, keep him the same reference, that

1298
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 1: he was nothing but a slave. But was I thought

1299
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:33,559
Speaker 1: he uh he didn't free him freedom after the expedition. No, uh,

1300
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 1: there there are several different stories. One is that he

1301
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:39,479
Speaker 1: York married and that he actually moved out west settled

1302
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 1: down with American Indian tribe. Others that he uh he

1303
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 1: stayed with with Clark for a period of time and

1304
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 1: then eventually left. But there really is not a whole

1305
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 1: lot known about what happens to York afterwards. I mean,

1306
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:56,280
Speaker 1: we know that he returns with with Clark Uh in

1307
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:59,760
Speaker 1: eighteen o six and he reverts to the slave life again.

1308
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 1: It he didn't free him, No, that was in fact

1309
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:07,400
Speaker 1: a lot of people want to Yeah, they really wanted

1310
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:08,840
Speaker 1: to be freed. I feel like a lot of the

1311
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: like middle school history books, the story of York ends

1312
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:14,800
Speaker 1: after the expedition, that you don't realize that, like York

1313
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:17,800
Speaker 1: asked for his freedom even and like I think, didn't

1314
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:19,600
Speaker 1: he have a wife in Tennessee, maybe that he has

1315
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:22,240
Speaker 1: to go live with and and he was still telled though, right,

1316
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 1: And I think one one version of it is that

1317
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,960
Speaker 1: he became a um a wagon master. You know, he

1318
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 1: would hull freight with wagons. So there's several different stories

1319
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 1: as far as what happened to York, but there's really

1320
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 1: nothing definitive. Now you asked about his workload. One place

1321
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 1: I think his workload was different was having sex with

1322
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:47,680
Speaker 1: Uh tribeswomen feel like that was part of the workload. Well,

1323
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:51,160
Speaker 1: the references they were impressed by him. They had never

1324
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 1: seen a person with black skin before um and they

1325
01:12:55,479 --> 01:12:58,320
Speaker 1: would do this practice of like spiritual power passing, and

1326
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:02,000
Speaker 1: York was unique in that sense, right, right, No, it was,

1327
01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 1: it was and and and not just York. I mean

1328
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 1: even even the members of other members of the expedition

1329
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:08,600
Speaker 1: because they were white. You know, that was something that

1330
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:12,120
Speaker 1: was part of this this mystique. Uh. It sounds pretty risky,

1331
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:16,000
Speaker 1: sounds you know, like it was just uh, inappropriate behavior,

1332
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 1: but it was. It was a culturally accepted situation where

1333
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:24,080
Speaker 1: when Lewis and Clark met with the Teeth and One Lakota, uh,

1334
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:28,960
Speaker 1: they were offered women, but apparently nobody, according to the journals,

1335
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 1: nobody accepted those offers. When they get to the Ricara,

1336
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:37,280
Speaker 1: that's when they does he specifically say no, one accepted. Yes.

1337
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:40,760
Speaker 1: Clark had a quote he said something that he uh,

1338
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:44,080
Speaker 1: I can't remember. He waved or he wavered. I think

1339
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:47,800
Speaker 1: he said he wavered. Now people wandered down, you know,

1340
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 1: like you wavered, you hessitated, then you accepted or do

1341
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 1: you wave it and just say no, no, thank you.

1342
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:56,719
Speaker 1: And so there's nothing in the journals that that indicate

1343
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 1: at any time that Lewis or Clark engaged in these

1344
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:02,680
Speaker 1: these kind of relaytionships. But when they get to the Ricara. Uh,

1345
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:06,040
Speaker 1: they're they're fascinated with york In. In the recall language,

1346
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:09,439
Speaker 1: he was referred to as as big medicine, big medicine

1347
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:11,280
Speaker 1: in the sense that what you're talking about, Spencer, is

1348
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 1: that there was a belief among some of these different

1349
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 1: tribes that certain medicine, certain spiritual powers could be transferred

1350
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 1: from one person to the next. For example, when they

1351
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:26,439
Speaker 1: were with the the winner that they're with the Mandan Indians.

1352
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 1: The Mandan had what was called a medicine dance or

1353
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,160
Speaker 1: a buffalo calling dance, and the way it works, and

1354
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:34,720
Speaker 1: they're very explicit that that they go into a lot

1355
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:37,719
Speaker 1: of details far as what men were engaging these relations,

1356
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:41,400
Speaker 1: who was suffering from from venereal disease, who was being

1357
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 1: treated for what. Nothing again about Lewis or Clark specifically,

1358
01:14:45,439 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 1: but in the case of the journals. On January five,

1359
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:51,040
Speaker 1: eighteen o five, we sent one of our men to

1360
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:54,719
Speaker 1: the medicine dance last night. They offered him for women.

1361
01:14:55,240 --> 01:14:57,320
Speaker 1: The way it was supposed to work is that you

1362
01:14:57,360 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 1: would have a group of elders in who would be

1363
01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:04,759
Speaker 1: in the lodge, and then younger men with their wives

1364
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 1: would come in and the younger men would offer their

1365
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 1: wives to the elders. And they described it as the

1366
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 1: elders would go off and do their business, and then

1367
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:16,360
Speaker 1: the woman would return and then she would have relations

1368
01:15:16,400 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 1: with her husband. It was more of a generational type

1369
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:22,799
Speaker 1: of transfer of power, if you will, our spiritual power medicine.

1370
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:27,599
Speaker 1: But now that you have whites, it's also the same

1371
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:30,880
Speaker 1: thing to transfer power from a white man to one

1372
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 1: of the one of the members of the tribe. Or

1373
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:36,600
Speaker 1: in the case of your special fascination, the fact that

1374
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 1: he was was dark skinned, and uh, you know that

1375
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 1: there's a very well known painting by Charles Russell where

1376
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:44,800
Speaker 1: they're in a lodge and and you see these people

1377
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 1: coming up and touching his skin and the texture of

1378
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:50,639
Speaker 1: his hair, and because they're just completely mystified. They they've

1379
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 1: never seen a person of this kind of statue. And

1380
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:55,320
Speaker 1: and uh, like I said, the color of his skin

1381
01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:58,439
Speaker 1: and and everything about him, it was something that they

1382
01:15:58,479 --> 01:16:02,120
Speaker 1: considered to be very spiritual. Are much big medicine, And so, yeah,

1383
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:05,400
Speaker 1: he was offered a lot of women. Yeah, the Ricara specifically,

1384
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:08,080
Speaker 1: there was a warrior that was so set on York

1385
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:11,799
Speaker 1: having sex with his wife or whatever that the warrior

1386
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 1: offered a stand guard outside the lodge while York was inside,

1387
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 1: just to give him privacy, right, and it was a commonplace. Now.

1388
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:22,720
Speaker 1: I think a big part of that is too about um,

1389
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:26,080
Speaker 1: the knowing, you know, the fact that this arrangement has

1390
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 1: been made. Uh. There were other situations in which some

1391
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:31,160
Speaker 1: of the Mountain men, especially when you think of the

1392
01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 1: Ashley Party in three, where they two of the men

1393
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:39,360
Speaker 1: sneaked into the Ricara villages to have these relationships and

1394
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:42,560
Speaker 1: they were caught. And that's what rigored, really triggers the

1395
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:45,639
Speaker 1: the whole situation between the Ricara attacking the Ashley Party,

1396
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:48,920
Speaker 1: because that was something that was not arranged, you know.

1397
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:52,240
Speaker 1: But in this case, the arranged situations between the members

1398
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:55,479
Speaker 1: of the Lewis and Clark expedition and the various tribes

1399
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 1: that was that was just that it was arranged. You know.

1400
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:03,599
Speaker 1: There's a fun anecdote about the vulnerabilities of of sort

1401
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 1: of the the hazards of journal reading in in Evan

1402
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:12,040
Speaker 1: s Connell's book Son of the Morning Star, where he

1403
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 1: describes there's this doctor who is among the party that

1404
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:22,160
Speaker 1: finds Costers command after it slaughtered, and he describes in

1405
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 1: great detail everything he saw, everything he did, right, everything

1406
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:29,559
Speaker 1: everybody did. But the doctor makes a debut in someone

1407
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 1: else's journal where someone else describes how the doctor tried

1408
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:36,960
Speaker 1: to pull had found a body of an Indian, had

1409
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 1: tried to pull it is very hot, the carcasses were

1410
01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 1: starting to rot. Had tried to pull the shoes off

1411
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 1: of Indian and his skin slipped, and the doctor vomited.

1412
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:51,320
Speaker 1: And has pointed out that that's the one thing that

1413
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:55,639
Speaker 1: doctor seemed to omit from his own journal that day. Right,

1414
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:59,479
Speaker 1: So like there's like a little bit of right no

1415
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:03,679
Speaker 1: one's been especially when you're commanders. I mean, it's easy

1416
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:05,800
Speaker 1: to talk about, you know, this person and this person

1417
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 1: and how they engaged the relations on how they're suffering

1418
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:12,400
Speaker 1: from fineerial disease, But when you're the commanders, do you

1419
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:14,200
Speaker 1: put that in there? Nobody did, and they and there

1420
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:18,639
Speaker 1: were at least eight individuals who kept journals, but nobody

1421
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 1: in any of the journals recorded anything about Louis or

1422
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:27,560
Speaker 1: Clark specifically engaging in these relations. But there were individuals

1423
01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:31,760
Speaker 1: later on in the nineteenth century who who claimed that, uh,

1424
01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:34,400
Speaker 1: they were fathered by either Mary whether Lewis or by

1425
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:37,439
Speaker 1: William Clark. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question

1426
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 1: is gott there's got to be descendants from these relations

1427
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:43,839
Speaker 1: from multiple tribes too. Yeah, And they talked about individuals

1428
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:46,600
Speaker 1: who would have a certain African American characteristics, you know,

1429
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:49,760
Speaker 1: the broad nose, the texture of the hair and things

1430
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:52,479
Speaker 1: like that, and they think, well, that's that's york Um.

1431
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:55,479
Speaker 1: In the case of the nez Pers, there was one

1432
01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:59,080
Speaker 1: by the name of Daytime Smoker who had a reddish

1433
01:18:59,160 --> 01:19:02,799
Speaker 1: tint to his hair, and according to their family's tradition,

1434
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:05,960
Speaker 1: William Clark was a father. Well then he had. There

1435
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 1: might have been other red haired, red haired individuals on

1436
01:19:08,479 --> 01:19:10,760
Speaker 1: the expedition, but we do know that Clark had red hair,

1437
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 1: but that was always their tradition. In South Dakota, there

1438
01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:19,000
Speaker 1: is a family who for over two hundred years, I

1439
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:22,000
Speaker 1: mean going back to when the Lewis and Clark expedition

1440
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 1: met the Titouana Lakota in the pier Fort Peer area.

1441
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:28,800
Speaker 1: Their claim is that Lewis fathered a child there. Now,

1442
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:32,040
Speaker 1: Lewis probably had no idea that that might have been

1443
01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 1: the case if he didn't. Lewis never married, he never

1444
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:37,479
Speaker 1: had any children that we know of, but this family's

1445
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:40,960
Speaker 1: oral tradition is that he fathered a child, and that

1446
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:45,360
Speaker 1: when that person became in his late sixties, he was

1447
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:48,560
Speaker 1: actually baptized and his he took the name Joseph de

1448
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:52,040
Speaker 1: Smit Lewis. His grave site is on the St. Alban

1449
01:19:52,080 --> 01:19:54,880
Speaker 1: Cemetery and a lower rural reservation in South Dakota, and

1450
01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:57,240
Speaker 1: when you go there you see the huge grave marker

1451
01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:00,840
Speaker 1: and then it says uh son of Ry Whether Lewis

1452
01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:04,479
Speaker 1: of the famed Lewis and Clark expedition. His baptismal records

1453
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:07,559
Speaker 1: are at the Center for Western Studies at Augustana University

1454
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:11,800
Speaker 1: in Swoux Falls. But that's the question. So what it

1455
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:14,679
Speaker 1: says on the certificate that the father was Mary whether Lewis,

1456
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:16,640
Speaker 1: How are you going to prove that? And this has

1457
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:19,679
Speaker 1: been part of the family's oral history for for well

1458
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:21,760
Speaker 1: ever since you know back he would have been born

1459
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:24,320
Speaker 1: in eighteen o five. But the thing of it is

1460
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:30,120
Speaker 1: this family has tried and spent a fair amount of

1461
01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:33,599
Speaker 1: money trying to make the d n A connections. Now

1462
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:36,280
Speaker 1: because Lewis did not have any known children, but there

1463
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:38,840
Speaker 1: are other Lewis members of the family that are out there,

1464
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:42,840
Speaker 1: and so they have tried extensively to try to say,

1465
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:46,280
Speaker 1: let's let's find out. You know, if if our oral

1466
01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:49,400
Speaker 1: history is right, well, then we should we should be

1467
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 1: noted for that that Marywether Lewis was the father of

1468
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:54,920
Speaker 1: such and such person way back on, a great great

1469
01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:57,760
Speaker 1: great great grandfather and song if if not, well, then

1470
01:20:58,439 --> 01:21:00,439
Speaker 1: and then we know, you know. So the family just

1471
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 1: really wants to know. And uh that's trying to make

1472
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 1: that connection to do the DNA studies. So they've they've

1473
01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:10,400
Speaker 1: spent a fair amount of money investing into this, uh,

1474
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:14,040
Speaker 1: going through a different DNA groups and and uh, they

1475
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:15,840
Speaker 1: really just want to know. And this is it is

1476
01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 1: kind of why I brought up the Kennewick man, uh

1477
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:23,240
Speaker 1: and the controversies around that, right and in that word,

1478
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:28,200
Speaker 1: to sacrilege. Right, So Merryweather Lewis is is is buried,

1479
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:34,719
Speaker 1: and we can't exume him just for the sake of science.

1480
01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:40,040
Speaker 1: We need a living relative to say, you know what,

1481
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:43,600
Speaker 1: it's okay with us if you exume him. And and

1482
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:46,519
Speaker 1: they've actually taken this to court, and uh it's just

1483
01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:50,160
Speaker 1: the policy of the National Park Service that when those

1484
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 1: requests were made denied and said no, we the National

1485
01:21:56,960 --> 01:22:01,439
Speaker 1: Park Services not allow anybody to be exhumed and to

1486
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:06,679
Speaker 1: be studied, of course with a Lewis situation. Wasn't murder?

1487
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:09,719
Speaker 1: Was a suicide. People who knew him best at that time,

1488
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:12,320
Speaker 1: they thought suicide. They could see that, you know, he

1489
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 1: had these bouts of what Steven Ambrose referred to as

1490
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:19,280
Speaker 1: melancholy and depression. He had other health problems. He was

1491
01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 1: dealing with some very serious political issues at the time.

1492
01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:24,680
Speaker 1: That's why he was heading back to Washington, d C.

1493
01:22:25,479 --> 01:22:29,920
Speaker 1: But the super large doses of mercury can mess with

1494
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:34,519
Speaker 1: the person's absolutely brain and are one of my nervous

1495
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:38,519
Speaker 1: system right right, So so what might have you know

1496
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:42,519
Speaker 1: if it was something physical, was it something psychological? Was

1497
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:45,240
Speaker 1: that a combination? But even a couple of weeks before

1498
01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:47,840
Speaker 1: his death, they said that he had to be restrained

1499
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:50,880
Speaker 1: because he was threatening to injure himself, you know. So

1500
01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:54,439
Speaker 1: the timeline leads a lot of people to say that

1501
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:58,160
Speaker 1: he was having issues and that he took his own life.

1502
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:01,840
Speaker 1: The other thing is he was shot twice. Once was

1503
01:23:02,080 --> 01:23:05,960
Speaker 1: he grazed, his head grazed, and then he had one

1504
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:08,240
Speaker 1: in the in the in the stomach area, in the

1505
01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:12,120
Speaker 1: abdomen and he did not die immediately. He did live

1506
01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:15,519
Speaker 1: until the morning the next morning and that's when he died.

1507
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:18,920
Speaker 1: So what what other people say that Lewis no, no, no,

1508
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:21,080
Speaker 1: not married with us. He would never take his own life,

1509
01:23:21,160 --> 01:23:22,840
Speaker 1: never do that, you know, he was too great of

1510
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:25,040
Speaker 1: a person and so on, and so they want to

1511
01:23:25,160 --> 01:23:27,400
Speaker 1: they want to exhume the body, do the forensics and

1512
01:23:27,560 --> 01:23:30,960
Speaker 1: determine at what angles were these shots made. You know,

1513
01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:33,560
Speaker 1: was this something that he could have inflicted himself, or

1514
01:23:34,080 --> 01:23:37,120
Speaker 1: was this situation where it's more like somebody shot at him,

1515
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:39,880
Speaker 1: you know so, but at this point, the National Park

1516
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:44,080
Speaker 1: Service has no no indication that that they're willing to

1517
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:48,480
Speaker 1: allow for an exhimation of the body. If he was assassinated,

1518
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 1: walk us through like the potential killers. There are some

1519
01:23:53,360 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 1: who say that it might have been politically motivated. There

1520
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,000
Speaker 1: are others who simply say that he was he was robbed,

1521
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:01,280
Speaker 1: you know, so if it was the situation where somebody

1522
01:24:01,720 --> 01:24:05,600
Speaker 1: did shoot him. Again, it depends on which story you

1523
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:07,680
Speaker 1: want to go with, because there are those who say

1524
01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:11,680
Speaker 1: that that people back in the in the territory that

1525
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:15,720
Speaker 1: they wanted Louis gone. There were people that felt that

1526
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:18,160
Speaker 1: he was not doing a very good job as as

1527
01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:20,920
Speaker 1: the governor of the territory. Um, then there were other

1528
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:23,400
Speaker 1: people who just simply said that he was probably just robbed.

1529
01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:26,120
Speaker 1: You know, there was a not just trace in Tennessee,

1530
01:24:26,160 --> 01:24:29,599
Speaker 1: and it was a place that was known for people

1531
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:32,040
Speaker 1: to rob others along the way, and that might have

1532
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 1: been the case as well. So it's hard to say

1533
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:36,760
Speaker 1: who might have And there's a lot of different theories.

1534
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:38,240
Speaker 1: There's a lot of different books that are out there

1535
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 1: as far as who might have done it and the

1536
01:24:40,439 --> 01:24:44,040
Speaker 1: motives motives behind it. And this took place like a

1537
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:48,160
Speaker 1: bed in breakfast that he like a roadhouse, Yeah, yeah,

1538
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:51,639
Speaker 1: like he like randomly stopped at. But one of one

1539
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:54,320
Speaker 1: of the suspects that people throw out there is like

1540
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:57,760
Speaker 1: the the woman who ran the place, because he had

1541
01:24:57,800 --> 01:25:01,200
Speaker 1: some conflicting stories about she heard the first gun shot.

1542
01:25:01,360 --> 01:25:03,960
Speaker 1: She saw him kind of crawling around or something, right,

1543
01:25:04,040 --> 01:25:06,160
Speaker 1: and so there's there's suspicion around her. And yeah, she

1544
01:25:06,240 --> 01:25:07,880
Speaker 1: was saying that he was tripping out so bad and

1545
01:25:07,960 --> 01:25:10,160
Speaker 1: making so much racket that didn't even go in there

1546
01:25:10,200 --> 01:25:13,439
Speaker 1: when they heard the gun shot. A grinder stand is

1547
01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:18,040
Speaker 1: what it was called. And you'll see grinder either grinder

1548
01:25:18,120 --> 01:25:20,640
Speaker 1: or just d R I N e R. But the

1549
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:24,160
Speaker 1: story that she heard him pacing and mumbling to himself

1550
01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:27,200
Speaker 1: and throughout the night, and then she heard the gunshot.

1551
01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:31,559
Speaker 1: And so it's one of those stories again where um,

1552
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:35,120
Speaker 1: what what she had to say about the incident was

1553
01:25:35,240 --> 01:25:37,600
Speaker 1: was pretty brief and not all. I mean, it's not

1554
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:40,679
Speaker 1: like she was taken in and given a full interview

1555
01:25:40,760 --> 01:25:44,120
Speaker 1: or anything like that. She just basically simply stated that

1556
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:45,920
Speaker 1: he was he was up all night and he was

1557
01:25:46,000 --> 01:25:49,679
Speaker 1: talking and mumbling to himself, and and then she heard

1558
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:53,080
Speaker 1: the gunshot. And then it goes from there. Are there

1559
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:57,000
Speaker 1: his storians you really respect that believe that he was

1560
01:25:57,040 --> 01:26:01,040
Speaker 1: assassinated or most of the folks that, um, like, No,

1561
01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:05,360
Speaker 1: Lewis and clark Well convinced you with suicide. Most most

1562
01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:08,439
Speaker 1: historians will go with the suicide. Um. But there are

1563
01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:11,400
Speaker 1: others who are are adamant that no, no, he just

1564
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:13,439
Speaker 1: would not have done that. And they're the ones who

1565
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:16,519
Speaker 1: have really pushed for the exhuming of the body. And

1566
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:19,560
Speaker 1: a lot of them are just people who want to

1567
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:22,479
Speaker 1: be supportive of the Lewis story. Others are people who

1568
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:24,760
Speaker 1: want to make sure that we're telling that the right

1569
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:27,920
Speaker 1: side of history, that his reputation as as far as

1570
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:32,800
Speaker 1: committing suicide versus being assassinated that that gets recorded in

1571
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:37,920
Speaker 1: the history books. I can't believe he's buried on Park

1572
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:41,280
Speaker 1: Service land, right? But does that? How does that give

1573
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:44,200
Speaker 1: the Park Service sort of like domain over the body?

1574
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:48,240
Speaker 1: Their their policy overall, from what I gather, is that

1575
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:51,479
Speaker 1: they just simply do not allow the eximation of any bodies.

1576
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:54,639
Speaker 1: Now we're talking about archaeological sites earlier. What happens when?

1577
01:26:55,600 --> 01:27:00,519
Speaker 1: But hear me out, Let's let's say I get buried, okay, whatever,

1578
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:03,840
Speaker 1: my body gets buried on Park Service land, right, and

1579
01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:06,160
Speaker 1: then later a family that's not gonna happen, you know

1580
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:10,479
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Later, Like my family is like I

1581
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:14,400
Speaker 1: want the body back. Is it really the Park Services

1582
01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:17,360
Speaker 1: place to say no? Well, at this point, there's really

1583
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:20,200
Speaker 1: no family that is that insistent that they want to

1584
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:23,320
Speaker 1: have the body exhumed and reburied. Because he didn't have

1585
01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:25,559
Speaker 1: his own kids, right, there's no person with a real,

1586
01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:29,479
Speaker 1: no direct not his parents, not his kids. One part

1587
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:32,240
Speaker 1: of this calculus is that where he's buried, there's like

1588
01:27:32,320 --> 01:27:34,840
Speaker 1: twenty other people buried as well, right, that they could

1589
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:37,320
Speaker 1: potentially not even hit Lewis if if they were to

1590
01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:40,360
Speaker 1: go in and his his remainders. I think we're reburied once,

1591
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:44,280
Speaker 1: you know. So it's just I can't remember in the

1592
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:46,600
Speaker 1: situation as far as why they were being exposed, but

1593
01:27:47,160 --> 01:27:49,760
Speaker 1: a reburial, and then of course he had the more

1594
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:55,280
Speaker 1: notable marker identifying Lewis. But uh, it's a little bit

1595
01:27:55,280 --> 01:27:59,240
Speaker 1: of crapshoot anyway, man, I think they ought to dig

1596
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:02,120
Speaker 1: it up anyway. Man, I don't really see what the

1597
01:28:02,120 --> 01:28:06,200
Speaker 1: big deal about it is. Yeah, i'd dig it up

1598
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:08,439
Speaker 1: and have a look. I think we got to get

1599
01:28:08,720 --> 01:28:10,240
Speaker 1: to crash. I'm just saying I don't always see the

1600
01:28:10,280 --> 01:28:11,960
Speaker 1: big deal about It's like, the guy's dead, who cares?

1601
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:18,120
Speaker 1: Then there's people say, well, the band's dead, let him rest. Listen, man,

1602
01:28:18,160 --> 01:28:19,920
Speaker 1: he can go back to rest. He's been resting all

1603
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:22,519
Speaker 1: the time. It's just a brief interruption in his rest.

1604
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:24,920
Speaker 1: He'd go back and rest some more. I think after

1605
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:28,679
Speaker 1: they take a look Clark Jefferson, those who really knew

1606
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:32,360
Speaker 1: him well, they didn't question it. They thought, yeah, they

1607
01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:34,240
Speaker 1: could see him doing something like that, that he would

1608
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:37,639
Speaker 1: be that drastic. Jefferson knew his family well and said

1609
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:39,920
Speaker 1: that his father and I think his mother and like

1610
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:44,040
Speaker 1: aunts and uncles had depression and like had manic episodes

1611
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:47,480
Speaker 1: as well. You'd also be to assume he was assassinated

1612
01:28:47,520 --> 01:28:49,120
Speaker 1: ignore the evidence of like you said, he tried to

1613
01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:51,960
Speaker 1: commit suicide like a month earlier at for something and

1614
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:54,280
Speaker 1: I don't remember where. And then he'd even written in

1615
01:28:54,360 --> 01:28:57,000
Speaker 1: his journal when he turned thirty one, like a tremendously

1616
01:28:57,080 --> 01:29:00,280
Speaker 1: sad entry that was like, I reflected that I had

1617
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:03,680
Speaker 1: yet done but little, very little, indeed to further the

1618
01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:06,280
Speaker 1: happiness of the human race or to advance the information

1619
01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:08,960
Speaker 1: of the succeeding generation. And from there he goes on

1620
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:12,840
Speaker 1: he's like, uh, talks about a lazies band in like uh,

1621
01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:16,520
Speaker 1: just a waste of space. Sounds like a guy was syphilist.

1622
01:29:17,240 --> 01:29:18,840
Speaker 1: He was real excited about he's gonna stay out a

1623
01:29:18,880 --> 01:29:23,120
Speaker 1: cute little bed and breakfast this weekend. Though Grinders Station

1624
01:29:24,479 --> 01:29:28,280
Speaker 1: specier that that particular journal entry is one that's noted

1625
01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:33,519
Speaker 1: quite often. It's it's it's in his journal, it's his

1626
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:36,040
Speaker 1: writing and everything, But it was the fact that you know,

1627
01:29:36,160 --> 01:29:38,960
Speaker 1: he at this point, he's thirty one years old. They've

1628
01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:41,439
Speaker 1: they've finally met the people whom they've been looking for

1629
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:44,200
Speaker 1: for the last four months or whatever. During the summer.

1630
01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:47,280
Speaker 1: You know, it was really a situation where things should

1631
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:49,680
Speaker 1: have been more much more upbeat in the stead he

1632
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:52,200
Speaker 1: say it, Man, I haven't done anything. I'm such a loser,

1633
01:29:52,600 --> 01:29:56,080
Speaker 1: you know. And it's like you get that impression from

1634
01:29:56,120 --> 01:29:58,360
Speaker 1: what he what he writes, and and people see that

1635
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:01,679
Speaker 1: that's that's again we're stee an Ambrose and undaunted courage

1636
01:30:01,760 --> 01:30:05,160
Speaker 1: keeps talking about this these bouts of melancholy, that he

1637
01:30:05,280 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 1: just simply went through these periods where he just really

1638
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:11,720
Speaker 1: seems depressed, and I think a lot of people just

1639
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:13,960
Speaker 1: get aside with that story. Then. Yeah, it was also

1640
01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:17,320
Speaker 1: likely that most of those fellas ended the expedition with malaria,

1641
01:30:17,600 --> 01:30:21,080
Speaker 1: which can cause dementia um which would also like add

1642
01:30:21,120 --> 01:30:23,960
Speaker 1: to the case that this was suicide. I didn't know

1643
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:27,439
Speaker 1: they're soffering from malaria. Yeah, and I never heard malaria.

1644
01:30:27,520 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 1: That's interesting. I think they just assume that most of

1645
01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:33,040
Speaker 1: those folks like got it at some point anyway, right right,

1646
01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:35,760
Speaker 1: I mean the variety of different diseases that that they

1647
01:30:36,439 --> 01:30:39,920
Speaker 1: suffered from. But the interesting thing is that Clark in

1648
01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:45,200
Speaker 1: the middle part maybe eight somewhere in there, he he

1649
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:47,519
Speaker 1: made a list of all the members of the expedition

1650
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:51,599
Speaker 1: that the Permanent Expedition expedition members that headed from from

1651
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:54,760
Speaker 1: the Mandan village out the Pacific coast, and out of

1652
01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:58,800
Speaker 1: those thirty three, sixteen of them were dead by five

1653
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:02,599
Speaker 1: or so, he noted include in Psychoga. You know, he said,

1654
01:31:02,640 --> 01:31:05,840
Speaker 1: no Chicago, we had died December eighteen twelve. She probably

1655
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:07,519
Speaker 1: would have been in her mid twenties. So again in

1656
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:10,880
Speaker 1: the controversy as far as how long did she live

1657
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:13,400
Speaker 1: where she buried, I mean, there's a lot of controversies

1658
01:31:13,479 --> 01:31:15,759
Speaker 1: running that. But a lot of the members of the exhibition.

1659
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 1: You talked about John Colter turning around going right back. Uh,

1660
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:23,639
Speaker 1: there were probably ten members of the expedition who did

1661
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:27,080
Speaker 1: just that. They had They went went right back. You know,

1662
01:31:27,120 --> 01:31:30,400
Speaker 1: they come back after over two years and four months

1663
01:31:30,439 --> 01:31:32,280
Speaker 1: and they turned around, they go right back, and they're

1664
01:31:32,320 --> 01:31:35,919
Speaker 1: gonna look into a either trading and then later trapping.

1665
01:31:36,200 --> 01:31:38,280
Speaker 1: You know what, why why trade when you can cut

1666
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:41,000
Speaker 1: out the middle person and then go ahead just trapped yourself.

1667
01:31:41,680 --> 01:31:43,479
Speaker 1: And you know you get into that whole period of

1668
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:51,040
Speaker 1: time between John Potts and George Drewyer and and John Coulter.

1669
01:31:51,120 --> 01:31:54,280
Speaker 1: I mean, they were they were probably probably ten of them.

1670
01:31:54,680 --> 01:31:57,719
Speaker 1: I think Potts, the guy that got killed at three Forks,

1671
01:31:58,360 --> 01:32:00,920
Speaker 1: got all got his genitals cut off and everything he

1672
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:02,800
Speaker 1: was he had to know he's an expedition member. Was

1673
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:06,120
Speaker 1: John Potts was an expedition member. So they knew each other. Well,

1674
01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:09,040
Speaker 1: oh yeah, a lot of these. In fact, there was

1675
01:32:09,080 --> 01:32:10,599
Speaker 1: one time we got to know him and Coulter had

1676
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:13,760
Speaker 1: that much history. John Coulter. He goes, he joins the

1677
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:16,240
Speaker 1: two trappers or traders that are heading up the river.

1678
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:19,760
Speaker 1: He's the only member to be dismissed early from the expedition.

1679
01:32:20,600 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 1: And then uh, he goes on his ventures. And then

1680
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:27,120
Speaker 1: he goes back and and uh he meets up with

1681
01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:30,000
Speaker 1: a couple of the other former members of the expedition.

1682
01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:31,840
Speaker 1: He joins them, He turns around, he goes right back

1683
01:32:32,280 --> 01:32:34,719
Speaker 1: to the to the west. You know, there's a little

1684
01:32:34,720 --> 01:32:37,479
Speaker 1: bit of there's kind of interesting bit of deal making

1685
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:40,799
Speaker 1: that shows you the leadership style of Lewis and Clark

1686
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:45,200
Speaker 1: around when Coulter wants to go back with the trappers

1687
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:50,719
Speaker 1: and traders, and everybody's supportive and and something whoever Lewis

1688
01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:54,879
Speaker 1: or Clark, whoever, says we'll let him go if everyone

1689
01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:59,360
Speaker 1: promises that, no one else will ask. Right, it's like

1690
01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:02,200
Speaker 1: an interesting deal, right, It's like that we're not home yet,

1691
01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:04,600
Speaker 1: you know, so we can't have everybody just disbanding and

1692
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:06,920
Speaker 1: and I don't know how many other members would have

1693
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:09,559
Speaker 1: been interested in leaving, but I always think it's interesting

1694
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:12,400
Speaker 1: that really, after all that period of time, John Coulter

1695
01:33:13,040 --> 01:33:18,080
Speaker 1: was ready to go right back. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm

1696
01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:23,280
Speaker 1: I'm kind of interested in because these like the Mandan

1697
01:33:23,439 --> 01:33:27,439
Speaker 1: village again, is is like this social hub, right, lots

1698
01:33:27,439 --> 01:33:29,920
Speaker 1: of trading coming in, and with that trading comes news.

1699
01:33:30,760 --> 01:33:36,160
Speaker 1: Do we know what was said about the expedition? Uh,

1700
01:33:37,080 --> 01:33:40,160
Speaker 1: in other parts of the other world, like folks who

1701
01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:43,760
Speaker 1: didn't come in direct contact with the expedition, like what

1702
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:48,720
Speaker 1: it was regarded as from a native perspective or a

1703
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:52,479
Speaker 1: trapping perspective out there. Um, there was a book I

1704
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:55,200
Speaker 1: can't remember the author, but it's called Through Indian Eyes.

1705
01:33:55,560 --> 01:33:58,879
Speaker 1: And then even during the Bison tendering, the Losing Clark expedition,

1706
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:02,000
Speaker 1: the National Park Service really had a had a strong

1707
01:34:02,080 --> 01:34:05,479
Speaker 1: emphasis on on the date of perspective, because you're talking

1708
01:34:05,479 --> 01:34:07,800
Speaker 1: about a situation where Lewis and Clark come along and

1709
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:09,920
Speaker 1: I don't think they would have been able to survive

1710
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:12,080
Speaker 1: had it not been for the different Indian nations with

1711
01:34:12,160 --> 01:34:15,240
Speaker 1: whom they encountered. But at the same time, things are

1712
01:34:15,280 --> 01:34:16,760
Speaker 1: never going to be the same, you know. By the

1713
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:19,840
Speaker 1: time they're coming back down the Missouri River, they said

1714
01:34:19,880 --> 01:34:22,719
Speaker 1: that they met probably a hundred and fifty different traders

1715
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:24,880
Speaker 1: and trappers going up the river, and had it not

1716
01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:27,080
Speaker 1: been Lewis and Clark, but it would have been somebody else.

1717
01:34:27,120 --> 01:34:29,280
Speaker 1: It's just a matter of time. They're already I mean

1718
01:34:29,320 --> 01:34:31,640
Speaker 1: when they came to the different villages um that they

1719
01:34:31,720 --> 01:34:34,320
Speaker 1: they were already a lot of Frenchmen who were among

1720
01:34:34,479 --> 01:34:38,400
Speaker 1: these these populations. There were people coming from a British

1721
01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:42,320
Speaker 1: Canada coming down. So for a large part of it,

1722
01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:45,320
Speaker 1: it's not like they were the first non Indians to

1723
01:34:45,439 --> 01:34:49,720
Speaker 1: visit that area. But when they head west and go

1724
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:52,920
Speaker 1: across the mountains to the Pacific northwest, that's that's really

1725
01:34:53,000 --> 01:34:56,160
Speaker 1: the area that nobody else had really ventured in. Yeah,

1726
01:34:56,200 --> 01:34:58,320
Speaker 1: that's I think it's port like Elliott West writes about

1727
01:34:58,360 --> 01:35:01,240
Speaker 1: the historian Elliott West writes about this, like at the

1728
01:35:01,280 --> 01:35:03,880
Speaker 1: time of the Lewis and Clark expedition, there were Native

1729
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:07,559
Speaker 1: Americans living on the Great Plains who had been to Europe,

1730
01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:10,040
Speaker 1: met the King of France and came back to the

1731
01:35:10,080 --> 01:35:15,200
Speaker 1: Great Plains. Yeah, right, like well that's the Southern Plains.

1732
01:35:15,200 --> 01:35:17,599
Speaker 1: But it was like it wasn't like a lot had

1733
01:35:17,680 --> 01:35:21,479
Speaker 1: been going on out there for a long time. And

1734
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:23,360
Speaker 1: then you get into they get into areas where they

1735
01:35:23,400 --> 01:35:25,920
Speaker 1: were making first contact, but it was like there was

1736
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:29,400
Speaker 1: deep European history. Absolutely what your was, what your did

1737
01:35:29,439 --> 01:35:31,960
Speaker 1: Cambysi dave Oka go like across the south coast of

1738
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:35,040
Speaker 1: Texas like two years earlier, and then the I always

1739
01:35:35,080 --> 01:35:37,920
Speaker 1: say the Rondres, but the Veronry brothers and the family

1740
01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:42,439
Speaker 1: who came down, uh seventeen thirties, eight, seventeen forty two,

1741
01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:44,719
Speaker 1: seventeen forty three. We know that they were at least

1742
01:35:45,200 --> 01:35:48,720
Speaker 1: as far as the Pier Fort Pier area. They left

1743
01:35:48,840 --> 01:35:51,200
Speaker 1: a marker, they're a lead plate with their their names

1744
01:35:51,240 --> 01:35:54,160
Speaker 1: on it in the date. So that's that's back in

1745
01:35:54,240 --> 01:35:57,760
Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds, a fair amount of time before Lewis

1746
01:35:57,760 --> 01:35:59,840
Speaker 1: and Clark came along. And then, like I said, you

1747
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:03,599
Speaker 1: across the the man Dan and they have Rene jos

1748
01:36:03,720 --> 01:36:06,559
Speaker 1: Holme who serves as a translator when they were there. Rekora,

1749
01:36:06,720 --> 01:36:10,280
Speaker 1: it's Joseph Gravelyn when they were with the antin Sioux,

1750
01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:12,640
Speaker 1: it's it's pere Dorian, you know. So like guys that

1751
01:36:12,720 --> 01:36:14,760
Speaker 1: have been there long enough to know the language, know

1752
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 1: the language. They had families, they had lived among these

1753
01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:21,120
Speaker 1: people for for a number of number of years. Yeah,

1754
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:24,680
Speaker 1: so yeah, that case, it wasn't all known unknown. I

1755
01:36:24,680 --> 01:36:27,519
Speaker 1: should say, in fact, that they did have journals that

1756
01:36:27,640 --> 01:36:30,280
Speaker 1: they could look at, and anticipation of who they were

1757
01:36:30,320 --> 01:36:32,599
Speaker 1: going to meet and where they might meet them, all

1758
01:36:32,640 --> 01:36:37,559
Speaker 1: those different aspects of it. But uh, with the man

1759
01:36:37,720 --> 01:36:41,080
Speaker 1: Dan and some of the other tribes, the Mandan chief

1760
01:36:41,200 --> 01:36:46,240
Speaker 1: Shaheka White Coyote, he actually on the way down the river,

1761
01:36:46,400 --> 01:36:49,320
Speaker 1: he actually went with them to St. Louis and eventually

1762
01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:52,960
Speaker 1: went out to the east and met with Jefferson Um

1763
01:36:53,080 --> 01:36:55,080
Speaker 1: Eagle Feather. I mentioned him earlier, the one who was

1764
01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:57,760
Speaker 1: wailing when he couldn't understand why they were punishing John

1765
01:36:57,840 --> 01:37:01,360
Speaker 1: Newman like that. He goes all the way out to Washington,

1766
01:37:01,400 --> 01:37:04,560
Speaker 1: d c. Become sick and and he dies, and that

1767
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:06,800
Speaker 1: does not go over well with the Aricara. From that

1768
01:37:06,840 --> 01:37:10,200
Speaker 1: point on, the Aricara become very anti American, and it

1769
01:37:10,280 --> 01:37:13,320
Speaker 1: really affects the fur trade, certainly, because that's one instead

1770
01:37:13,320 --> 01:37:17,240
Speaker 1: of fur traders going up the Missouri River Nowlison, they

1771
01:37:17,240 --> 01:37:19,840
Speaker 1: started looking more at the south Pass me thinking that, yeah,

1772
01:37:19,880 --> 01:37:21,519
Speaker 1: this would be a better way to go, you avoiding

1773
01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:24,760
Speaker 1: both the the Arikara and the and the and the Blackfeet.

1774
01:37:26,080 --> 01:37:29,400
Speaker 1: Not that all the tribes were pro loose and clark

1775
01:37:29,479 --> 01:37:32,280
Speaker 1: and friendly, but they they did provide a great deal

1776
01:37:32,280 --> 01:37:34,599
Speaker 1: of assistance for him, certainly, And and I really don't

1777
01:37:34,600 --> 01:37:36,280
Speaker 1: think that they would have survived that had not been

1778
01:37:36,400 --> 01:37:48,599
Speaker 1: for the different nations with whom they came in contact. Yanni,

1779
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:52,720
Speaker 1: what what do you think we never got into oh,

1780
01:37:53,120 --> 01:37:56,160
Speaker 1: just hunting and fishing and eating on the expedition. I

1781
01:37:56,240 --> 01:37:59,240
Speaker 1: got one more question and we'll talk about that because

1782
01:37:59,240 --> 01:38:03,120
Speaker 1: you just mentioned the black Feet. They only killed one guy, right,

1783
01:38:03,240 --> 01:38:05,360
Speaker 1: They lost one guy from what do you call when

1784
01:38:05,400 --> 01:38:09,720
Speaker 1: you're appendix ruptures? And they killed a guy, right, I

1785
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:13,960
Speaker 1: mean they killed a black Feet when when Louis Louis

1786
01:38:14,120 --> 01:38:16,880
Speaker 1: didn't lose the expedition members, didn't they kill a black

1787
01:38:16,920 --> 01:38:19,240
Speaker 1: Feet man? Right? There were two that were killed. The

1788
01:38:19,360 --> 01:38:23,720
Speaker 1: K and H when like forever earned the enmity of

1789
01:38:23,800 --> 01:38:26,800
Speaker 1: exactly black Feet nation when they were returning Louis and

1790
01:38:26,960 --> 01:38:29,680
Speaker 1: three of the other men had broken off. Clark was

1791
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:32,040
Speaker 1: taken the Yellowstone, the main part of the of the

1792
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:35,880
Speaker 1: expedition and U when Louis and and these three other

1793
01:38:35,960 --> 01:38:40,000
Speaker 1: men met the group about ten or so blackfoot, UM,

1794
01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:43,160
Speaker 1: they ended up spending the evening with them. The next morning,

1795
01:38:43,200 --> 01:38:46,080
Speaker 1: they awake and appears that they're stealing their horses, loose

1796
01:38:46,280 --> 01:38:49,640
Speaker 1: Loos's horses and his men, and they pointed out that UM,

1797
01:38:50,439 --> 01:38:54,479
Speaker 1: one person stabbed and killed one of the Blackfoot, and

1798
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:59,280
Speaker 1: Louis shot and killed another one. And to add insult

1799
01:38:59,320 --> 01:39:04,080
Speaker 1: to injury, when they left, UH, they placed Jefferson Peace

1800
01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:06,720
Speaker 1: medals around them, So there was no question as to

1801
01:39:06,840 --> 01:39:09,320
Speaker 1: who did this. You know that this was these were

1802
01:39:09,400 --> 01:39:11,640
Speaker 1: Americans who did this. And so from that point on,

1803
01:39:11,840 --> 01:39:15,120
Speaker 1: they placed Jefferson peace medals around the around their neck

1804
01:39:15,320 --> 01:39:17,080
Speaker 1: from the dead guys, around the two men whom they

1805
01:39:17,160 --> 01:39:20,880
Speaker 1: just killed right your ship. So from that point on,

1806
01:39:21,080 --> 01:39:23,960
Speaker 1: I said, the rick Raw and the and the Blackfoot,

1807
01:39:24,000 --> 01:39:28,120
Speaker 1: they were the two groups that really did not support Americans.

1808
01:39:28,200 --> 01:39:30,880
Speaker 1: That's what's crazy about it, is like, is there any

1809
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:38,200
Speaker 1: chance that the Blackfeet who caught Coulter and Pots in

1810
01:39:38,280 --> 01:39:41,000
Speaker 1: the upper three Forks region, or you know, the Three

1811
01:39:41,040 --> 01:39:44,400
Speaker 1: Forks in Missouri. Is there any chance those dudes knew

1812
01:39:44,400 --> 01:39:48,240
Speaker 1: who those dudes were. I don't know. There was so

1813
01:39:48,320 --> 01:39:50,040
Speaker 1: much they knew that they were members of the Lewis

1814
01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:54,320
Speaker 1: and Clark expedition from before. It's just that they were Americans,

1815
01:39:55,080 --> 01:39:57,280
Speaker 1: and that if you were making a movie about it, Dude,

1816
01:39:58,400 --> 01:40:00,560
Speaker 1: if I made a movie about it, I'd have it

1817
01:40:00,680 --> 01:40:02,680
Speaker 1: be that whoever I was standing next to the guy

1818
01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:05,080
Speaker 1: that they killed would be like, oh, I remember you boys,

1819
01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:09,799
Speaker 1: fancy seeing you here. And then the other like close

1820
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:13,080
Speaker 1: brush to death. With that that that the crew had

1821
01:40:13,240 --> 01:40:15,479
Speaker 1: was Louis got shot by one of his own men

1822
01:40:16,280 --> 01:40:19,120
Speaker 1: in the butt in like a very national lampoon way,

1823
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:21,639
Speaker 1: by somebody who thought they spotted an elk walking through

1824
01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:24,680
Speaker 1: the ways. Pure Kruzatte. He was one of the more

1825
01:40:24,760 --> 01:40:27,680
Speaker 1: notable members. He was not a military person, but he

1826
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:29,840
Speaker 1: was known as a as a good boatsman. He was

1827
01:40:29,880 --> 01:40:31,920
Speaker 1: the one who would often play the fiddle whenever they

1828
01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:34,960
Speaker 1: were celebrating the Fourth of July or Christmas or something

1829
01:40:35,040 --> 01:40:38,080
Speaker 1: like that, so he's noted quite often. But he also

1830
01:40:38,200 --> 01:40:40,880
Speaker 1: was said to have had poor eyesight and so on.

1831
01:40:41,040 --> 01:40:45,080
Speaker 1: This situation when they're coming back, Uh, Cruzatte shoots what

1832
01:40:45,200 --> 01:40:47,200
Speaker 1: he thinks as an elk and it turns out to

1833
01:40:47,280 --> 01:40:50,160
Speaker 1: be Louis And it's just one of those situations where again,

1834
01:40:50,439 --> 01:40:52,000
Speaker 1: he could have gone this whole way and then been

1835
01:40:52,040 --> 01:40:54,320
Speaker 1: shot by one of his own men. But uh, it

1836
01:40:54,520 --> 01:40:57,080
Speaker 1: was a flesh wound in the in the upper thigh,

1837
01:40:57,120 --> 01:41:00,320
Speaker 1: in the buttock area, and uh so he stayed in

1838
01:41:00,400 --> 01:41:02,479
Speaker 1: the boat for the next several days. When they reached

1839
01:41:02,479 --> 01:41:05,599
Speaker 1: back to the Erica villages, Clark goes in and meets

1840
01:41:05,640 --> 01:41:09,559
Speaker 1: with the new Arica leader, Gray Eyes. There's nothing about Louis. Well,

1841
01:41:09,560 --> 01:41:11,960
Speaker 1: because Louis Is is on the boat, you know, he's

1842
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:13,760
Speaker 1: not going to get up and walk around. And even

1843
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:16,000
Speaker 1: even at that, towards the end of August, they point

1844
01:41:16,040 --> 01:41:19,120
Speaker 1: out that Louis finally got up and walked along the

1845
01:41:19,200 --> 01:41:21,920
Speaker 1: shoreline a little bit. Well it was nodal, won't nodal

1846
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:24,000
Speaker 1: because he had been shot and he was recovering from

1847
01:41:24,040 --> 01:41:27,880
Speaker 1: that injury. But yeah, I was insuring that he ends

1848
01:41:27,960 --> 01:41:30,280
Speaker 1: up suffering an injury that could have been a very

1849
01:41:30,400 --> 01:41:33,880
Speaker 1: fatal injury, certainly by one of his own men. Yeah,

1850
01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:35,479
Speaker 1: and when it was all said and done, he's been

1851
01:41:35,479 --> 01:41:39,240
Speaker 1: shot three times when it was all said done, yes,

1852
01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:44,120
Speaker 1: twice by himself. Coulter killed the first mule deer. Was

1853
01:41:44,200 --> 01:41:50,000
Speaker 1: the first American to killer mulder Right'm not sure if

1854
01:41:50,160 --> 01:41:52,040
Speaker 1: he was the first one, but oh no, no, no,

1855
01:41:52,280 --> 01:41:55,080
Speaker 1: he killed the first mule deer that was scientifically described.

1856
01:41:55,280 --> 01:41:57,360
Speaker 1: Of course, he wasn't the first American killing. That's the thing,

1857
01:41:57,400 --> 01:41:59,320
Speaker 1: you know, Louis. He was the one who was responsible

1858
01:41:59,400 --> 01:42:03,800
Speaker 1: for identifying the different animals and giving the detailed description.

1859
01:42:03,920 --> 01:42:06,840
Speaker 1: So uh, and when and when when Lewis wrote, and

1860
01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:09,240
Speaker 1: they were certainly big gaps in his journals, but when

1861
01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:12,000
Speaker 1: he wrote, he wrote with such such detail. And we

1862
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:15,360
Speaker 1: talked about this before last last October, but you know, uh,

1863
01:42:15,640 --> 01:42:18,759
Speaker 1: when he described a plant he would draw the leaves

1864
01:42:18,920 --> 01:42:20,960
Speaker 1: of the roots that he would he would go into

1865
01:42:21,439 --> 01:42:24,439
Speaker 1: all the details. When he described an animal, he would

1866
01:42:24,479 --> 01:42:27,600
Speaker 1: go into incredible amount of detail. And so yeah, in

1867
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:31,280
Speaker 1: that area of well, uh. Paul Russell cut right, who

1868
01:42:31,320 --> 01:42:35,040
Speaker 1: wrote Lewis and Clark Pioneering Naturalists, uh for for outdoors,

1869
01:42:35,120 --> 01:42:37,880
Speaker 1: people for hunters. So that's probably a book that I

1870
01:42:37,880 --> 01:42:41,840
Speaker 1: would really recommend because he talks about, you know, by

1871
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:45,360
Speaker 1: today's standards of different counties and what plants, what animals

1872
01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:48,920
Speaker 1: were identified by Lewis and Clark, especially Lewis in that

1873
01:42:49,040 --> 01:42:51,680
Speaker 1: particular area, you know, so it puts things in perspective.

1874
01:42:51,760 --> 01:42:54,680
Speaker 1: But but uh, Lewis goes into so much detail. And

1875
01:42:55,120 --> 01:42:56,720
Speaker 1: what I was gonna say, is Paul Russell cut right.

1876
01:42:56,720 --> 01:42:58,680
Speaker 1: He said they are between the Nya Barrera River and

1877
01:42:58,840 --> 01:43:01,600
Speaker 1: the Bad River, or that that was probably one of

1878
01:43:01,680 --> 01:43:05,080
Speaker 1: the most significant areas in terms of plants and animals

1879
01:43:05,439 --> 01:43:07,639
Speaker 1: for the native populations. They knew all about these plans

1880
01:43:07,680 --> 01:43:11,600
Speaker 1: and animals, but for science to record them, that was

1881
01:43:11,760 --> 01:43:13,360
Speaker 1: that was something different, you know. So they said a

1882
01:43:13,439 --> 01:43:16,360
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy eight plants, hundred twenty two different species

1883
01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:20,040
Speaker 1: and subspecies of animals that Lewis identified. That number has

1884
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:22,200
Speaker 1: changed over the years because people started looking at said,

1885
01:43:22,200 --> 01:43:24,439
Speaker 1: oh no, actually that was already recorded, you know. But

1886
01:43:24,720 --> 01:43:28,120
Speaker 1: it was a situation where he had so much detail

1887
01:43:28,240 --> 01:43:32,639
Speaker 1: when he talked about I always think of the jack rabbit,

1888
01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:35,800
Speaker 1: for example, because when they killed their first jack rabbit,

1889
01:43:36,240 --> 01:43:38,400
Speaker 1: Uh Lewis had been watching this and and and uh

1890
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:40,920
Speaker 1: he goes out and he says, such, ok, the jack

1891
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:43,280
Speaker 1: rabbit about two and a half feet long, six and

1892
01:43:43,320 --> 01:43:46,040
Speaker 1: a half pounds of the ears are about six inches

1893
01:43:46,120 --> 01:43:48,680
Speaker 1: long three inches wide. And then he goes out and

1894
01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:51,240
Speaker 1: he measures because I've been watching this leaping from place

1895
01:43:51,320 --> 01:43:54,240
Speaker 1: to place, and especially when it was fleeing, and he

1896
01:43:54,320 --> 01:43:56,080
Speaker 1: said that from the point where it took off and

1897
01:43:56,160 --> 01:43:59,120
Speaker 1: where it landed was approximately twenty one ft. I mean,

1898
01:43:59,200 --> 01:44:02,559
Speaker 1: it's those kind of details that used when he talked

1899
01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:06,160
Speaker 1: about different different plants and animals. It's it's like astonishing

1900
01:44:06,240 --> 01:44:09,000
Speaker 1: how much they got right without prior knowledge. But talk

1901
01:44:09,040 --> 01:44:10,920
Speaker 1: about some of the things that they got wrong, because

1902
01:44:10,960 --> 01:44:14,559
Speaker 1: it's like pretty comical some of the stuff like calling

1903
01:44:14,640 --> 01:44:17,960
Speaker 1: a big horn sheep and ibex or uh. You mentioned

1904
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:20,400
Speaker 1: to me last October something about they thought they saw

1905
01:44:20,439 --> 01:44:23,720
Speaker 1: a tiger, but we don't know what that was, right right, Um.

1906
01:44:23,880 --> 01:44:26,080
Speaker 1: You know there was a lot of times where because

1907
01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:28,200
Speaker 1: they I mean, Lewis did go through his tutoring and

1908
01:44:28,320 --> 01:44:32,599
Speaker 1: so he worked with people like Benjamin um Smith Barton

1909
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:36,439
Speaker 1: and how to do uh, preserving the specimens of plants

1910
01:44:36,479 --> 01:44:39,000
Speaker 1: and animals and and looking at books, and a lot

1911
01:44:39,080 --> 01:44:40,840
Speaker 1: of times I think it was based on the fact

1912
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:43,960
Speaker 1: that they knew that this type of animal existed, and

1913
01:44:44,080 --> 01:44:47,519
Speaker 1: so when they see something similar out here. They kind

1914
01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:49,720
Speaker 1: of go by the by my name. It wouldn't be

1915
01:44:49,800 --> 01:44:52,800
Speaker 1: so much getting it wrong. It's just basing what they're

1916
01:44:52,800 --> 01:44:56,960
Speaker 1: seeing on what someone else on something similar to so

1917
01:44:57,120 --> 01:44:59,519
Speaker 1: what they're seeing. What was the tiger story though, Yeah,

1918
01:44:59,600 --> 01:45:02,400
Speaker 1: the tie your Cat. It goes back to the point

1919
01:45:02,479 --> 01:45:06,439
Speaker 1: where I think it was in July of eighteen oh five,

1920
01:45:06,600 --> 01:45:08,320
Speaker 1: and Lewis would do this quite often, where he'd go

1921
01:45:08,400 --> 01:45:12,160
Speaker 1: off by himself and he was out exploring. He uh,

1922
01:45:12,280 --> 01:45:14,960
Speaker 1: he shoots out of Buffalo and uh, he does not

1923
01:45:15,080 --> 01:45:17,639
Speaker 1: reload right away, and all of a sudden he realized

1924
01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:20,360
Speaker 1: that there's a grizzly bear very close to him. So

1925
01:45:20,880 --> 01:45:26,280
Speaker 1: his action, Um, it was somewhere here in Montana. I'm

1926
01:45:26,280 --> 01:45:28,320
Speaker 1: not sure exact point it would win in July, so

1927
01:45:28,360 --> 01:45:30,400
Speaker 1: I'd have to look at the journals and see exactly

1928
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:32,680
Speaker 1: where they were at that particular point, but it was

1929
01:45:32,920 --> 01:45:35,840
Speaker 1: it was here in Montana. And uh, he ends up

1930
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:39,840
Speaker 1: going into a nearby river, getting in deep enough so

1931
01:45:39,920 --> 01:45:42,280
Speaker 1: that if the grizzly bear follows him that he'd have

1932
01:45:42,360 --> 01:45:44,760
Speaker 1: to start paddling, he wouldn't be able to actually attack him.

1933
01:45:45,040 --> 01:45:49,559
Speaker 1: And Lewis and Clark, they both had called spontoons basically lances.

1934
01:45:49,880 --> 01:45:51,720
Speaker 1: They used him for walking sticks. It was really kind

1935
01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:54,559
Speaker 1: of a symbol of officers. And they had a point

1936
01:45:54,640 --> 01:45:56,120
Speaker 1: on the end. And so he figured if he'd get

1937
01:45:56,160 --> 01:45:58,800
Speaker 1: into this river deep enough that if this grizzly bear

1938
01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:01,320
Speaker 1: did come in after him, he'd able to defend himself,

1939
01:46:02,000 --> 01:46:05,000
Speaker 1: defend himself a little bit better. Well, eventually the grizzly

1940
01:46:05,080 --> 01:46:08,040
Speaker 1: bear takes off and as he's heading back towards the

1941
01:46:08,120 --> 01:46:12,160
Speaker 1: main camp, uh, three buffalo start to chase him. And

1942
01:46:12,240 --> 01:46:14,439
Speaker 1: then he gets another point where he sees an animal

1943
01:46:14,560 --> 01:46:18,000
Speaker 1: that he describes as a tiger cat. And uh, what

1944
01:46:18,200 --> 01:46:21,360
Speaker 1: he actually meant by a tiger cat. It's hard to say. Uh,

1945
01:46:22,240 --> 01:46:24,120
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say. Most but it's been kind of divided

1946
01:46:24,320 --> 01:46:25,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people in the Northwest, they said, well,

1947
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:28,479
Speaker 1: tiger cat, they're talking about a lynx or bobcast something

1948
01:46:28,560 --> 01:46:32,559
Speaker 1: like that. Uh. For others they said, no, tiger cat

1949
01:46:32,880 --> 01:46:36,360
Speaker 1: was a reference to a wolverine. And so there was

1950
01:46:36,400 --> 01:46:39,120
Speaker 1: this wolverine that was looked looked like it was ready

1951
01:46:39,160 --> 01:46:41,400
Speaker 1: to pounce, and then he shot at it and then

1952
01:46:41,479 --> 01:46:43,599
Speaker 1: it went into its burrow. When he went and he looked,

1953
01:46:43,640 --> 01:46:45,960
Speaker 1: and he saw that the marks that were left looked

1954
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:49,040
Speaker 1: like the tracks of a tiger, you know. So he

1955
01:46:49,120 --> 01:46:51,760
Speaker 1: gets that idea of the tiger cat, but what exactly

1956
01:46:52,400 --> 01:46:55,559
Speaker 1: was that he like the wolverine idea man, And that's

1957
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:58,519
Speaker 1: now that seems like the most popular story is that

1958
01:46:58,600 --> 01:47:02,519
Speaker 1: it's probably a probably wolverine. Also, when they were in Montana,

1959
01:47:03,040 --> 01:47:05,160
Speaker 1: I think it was in the Great Falls area. They

1960
01:47:05,880 --> 01:47:07,920
Speaker 1: multiple men talk about this in the journals where they

1961
01:47:08,000 --> 01:47:10,800
Speaker 1: hear some mysterious booms that sound like cannons, but it

1962
01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:13,240
Speaker 1: wouldn't make sense that it would be cannons, And I've

1963
01:47:13,240 --> 01:47:15,400
Speaker 1: heard people speculate that it was like an earthquake or

1964
01:47:15,400 --> 01:47:17,400
Speaker 1: a glacier. So tell us about that story, like what

1965
01:47:17,479 --> 01:47:19,840
Speaker 1: they heard and what people think it might have been.

1966
01:47:20,120 --> 01:47:21,960
Speaker 1: And of course things echo so much, you know, and

1967
01:47:22,200 --> 01:47:24,080
Speaker 1: that was part of it. I think that the sounds

1968
01:47:24,080 --> 01:47:26,920
Speaker 1: that they were hearing were something that that surprised them,

1969
01:47:27,080 --> 01:47:30,040
Speaker 1: something that that they really were kind of wondering, what

1970
01:47:30,280 --> 01:47:32,400
Speaker 1: is that, where is it coming from? But even to

1971
01:47:32,479 --> 01:47:34,320
Speaker 1: try to try to narrow down they had such a

1972
01:47:34,360 --> 01:47:36,880
Speaker 1: difficult time even doing so, you know, because again it's

1973
01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:40,599
Speaker 1: just the loud sounds crashes that make that are are

1974
01:47:40,720 --> 01:47:45,559
Speaker 1: made so big horn she I can't tell you how many,

1975
01:47:47,760 --> 01:47:49,920
Speaker 1: and then like, son of a bitch, somebody else up

1976
01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:55,840
Speaker 1: there shooting at so yeah, so I I honestly, I

1977
01:47:55,880 --> 01:47:57,240
Speaker 1: don't have a whole lot more to add to that,

1978
01:47:57,280 --> 01:47:59,519
Speaker 1: because it was such a mystery to them, they really

1979
01:47:59,560 --> 01:48:03,080
Speaker 1: didn't have a whole lot of explanation. You also talked

1980
01:48:03,080 --> 01:48:05,840
Speaker 1: about how when the tiger cat was spotted, he was

1981
01:48:06,040 --> 01:48:07,680
Speaker 1: off by himself, right, And I think a lot of

1982
01:48:07,720 --> 01:48:10,000
Speaker 1: people who aren't very familiar with the Lewis and Clark story,

1983
01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:12,960
Speaker 1: I don't realize how often these guys were splitting up.

1984
01:48:13,040 --> 01:48:15,320
Speaker 1: I think in your head it's like, Okay, forty five

1985
01:48:15,360 --> 01:48:17,479
Speaker 1: people left, and they were forty five people together the

1986
01:48:17,479 --> 01:48:19,880
Speaker 1: whole time or whatever. But in reality, they often split

1987
01:48:20,000 --> 01:48:23,920
Speaker 1: up with like, you know, groups of twenty five or

1988
01:48:24,240 --> 01:48:27,479
Speaker 1: or ten and thirty and fifteen or something like that.

1989
01:48:28,200 --> 01:48:29,719
Speaker 1: And a lot of times when they came to different

1990
01:48:29,800 --> 01:48:32,720
Speaker 1: rivers the Mariahs River, for example, which way to go?

1991
01:48:33,000 --> 01:48:35,000
Speaker 1: You know, all the men of the expedition except for

1992
01:48:35,360 --> 01:48:37,439
Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark, said this is the way we need

1993
01:48:37,520 --> 01:48:40,040
Speaker 1: to go. Lewis and Clark said no, we're gonna go

1994
01:48:40,160 --> 01:48:42,720
Speaker 1: this way. But they took a lot of time going up,

1995
01:48:43,000 --> 01:48:44,960
Speaker 1: they split the group up and some went this direction,

1996
01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:47,040
Speaker 1: so and went that direction. They came back, they reported,

1997
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:49,759
Speaker 1: and then the captains had to make that final decision,

1998
01:48:49,800 --> 01:48:51,840
Speaker 1: which where we're going to go. But there were there

1999
01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:53,400
Speaker 1: are a lot of times like that. On the way back.

2000
01:48:53,439 --> 01:48:55,280
Speaker 1: When I said that Lewis and three men went to

2001
01:48:55,520 --> 01:48:58,720
Speaker 1: uh explorer more in the northern part of Montana, and

2002
01:48:59,040 --> 01:49:02,559
Speaker 1: h Clark and the rest. They went down the Yellowstone. Uh,

2003
01:49:03,200 --> 01:49:05,599
Speaker 1: that happened quite often. And a lot of times even

2004
01:49:05,680 --> 01:49:08,040
Speaker 1: when they met the Shoshone. He was Lewis and that

2005
01:49:08,200 --> 01:49:11,400
Speaker 1: that front party and Clark and the rest coming up behind.

2006
01:49:11,840 --> 01:49:13,360
Speaker 1: And a lot of times they would just simply leave

2007
01:49:13,400 --> 01:49:16,000
Speaker 1: a note on a on a tree limb, you know,

2008
01:49:16,080 --> 01:49:18,040
Speaker 1: and you think, well, how in the world has somebody

2009
01:49:18,120 --> 01:49:20,040
Speaker 1: catch that? Oh, they left us to know, you know,

2010
01:49:20,120 --> 01:49:22,439
Speaker 1: but they did. It was just remarkable that they could

2011
01:49:22,479 --> 01:49:25,559
Speaker 1: go in so many different directions and yet they would

2012
01:49:25,560 --> 01:49:27,920
Speaker 1: still meet up. You know. It's just it's just it's

2013
01:49:28,160 --> 01:49:30,519
Speaker 1: fascinated that they could do so and do it over

2014
01:49:30,640 --> 01:49:33,280
Speaker 1: and over and over again. I mentioned George Shannon, he

2015
01:49:33,400 --> 01:49:35,600
Speaker 1: was the youngster of the group. Uh. He was the

2016
01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:38,240
Speaker 1: one who's often mentioned a lot in Lewis and Clark

2017
01:49:38,280 --> 01:49:41,640
Speaker 1: circles for being lost the most often. Um, there was

2018
01:49:42,360 --> 01:49:46,719
Speaker 1: one situation early in the expedition, uh back in August

2019
01:49:46,920 --> 01:49:51,880
Speaker 1: and September, and he went out hunting and he thought

2020
01:49:51,960 --> 01:49:54,920
Speaker 1: that the expedition had passed him. So he's pushing forward,

2021
01:49:55,240 --> 01:49:57,760
Speaker 1: trying to catch up to the expedition. For sixteen days

2022
01:49:57,840 --> 01:50:02,120
Speaker 1: he's pushing forward, he runs out of ammunition, he shoots

2023
01:50:02,160 --> 01:50:04,800
Speaker 1: a stick and kills a rabbit. He eats some some

2024
01:50:04,920 --> 01:50:09,080
Speaker 1: berries along the way, and after sixteen days he's he's starving,

2025
01:50:09,200 --> 01:50:12,560
Speaker 1: he's tired. He sits down, and here comes the exhibedition

2026
01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:15,680
Speaker 1: expedition behind him. The whole time they were trying to

2027
01:50:15,720 --> 01:50:17,680
Speaker 1: catch up to him, and he kept thinking that he

2028
01:50:17,760 --> 01:50:20,360
Speaker 1: had to catch up to them. So I always tell you, know,

2029
01:50:20,479 --> 01:50:22,519
Speaker 1: the parents, when you tell your children you get lost,

2030
01:50:22,680 --> 01:50:24,960
Speaker 1: stay in one place, don't wander around. Well, that's exactly

2031
01:50:24,960 --> 01:50:27,120
Speaker 1: what George Shannon was doing. He was wandering. He was

2032
01:50:27,200 --> 01:50:29,800
Speaker 1: trying to catch up to AH to the expedition. They

2033
01:50:29,840 --> 01:50:31,760
Speaker 1: were actually behind him. We said he shot a stick.

2034
01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:33,680
Speaker 1: I mean he crammed a stick down the muzzle right,

2035
01:50:33,800 --> 01:50:36,760
Speaker 1: WHOA shout it out. That's that's all he had I

2036
01:50:36,800 --> 01:50:40,439
Speaker 1: mean he was the last resort, so sixteen days he

2037
01:50:40,600 --> 01:50:43,559
Speaker 1: was he was lost. To me, being lost just means

2038
01:50:43,560 --> 01:50:47,200
Speaker 1: you're finding stuff, you know. I mean, that's that's the

2039
01:50:47,240 --> 01:50:49,719
Speaker 1: good part about being lost. You can discover all sorts

2040
01:50:49,760 --> 01:50:52,320
Speaker 1: of stuff. He probably just didn't get credit because he

2041
01:50:54,280 --> 01:51:00,519
Speaker 1: was falling out of military whatever structure there, you know.

2042
01:51:00,600 --> 01:51:03,880
Speaker 1: And and and people often again jokingly say that, you know,

2043
01:51:04,000 --> 01:51:06,240
Speaker 1: he died in the land of plenty because you have

2044
01:51:06,439 --> 01:51:09,120
Speaker 1: all this wildlife, you have all this surround you, but

2045
01:51:09,240 --> 01:51:11,559
Speaker 1: you can't kill anything, you know, So for sixteen days

2046
01:51:11,640 --> 01:51:13,760
Speaker 1: you're eating a few berries here and there, in a

2047
01:51:13,880 --> 01:51:17,040
Speaker 1: in a rabbit. That was it. That's all you come

2048
01:51:17,120 --> 01:51:20,439
Speaker 1: up with. Talk about how the whole time Louis and

2049
01:51:20,479 --> 01:51:23,360
Speaker 1: Clarker doing this expedition, I think they don't even realize

2050
01:51:23,400 --> 01:51:27,040
Speaker 1: that they're also being hunted by like some Spanish mercenaries.

2051
01:51:27,439 --> 01:51:29,719
Speaker 1: How close did the Spanish mercenaries like come to getting

2052
01:51:29,760 --> 01:51:32,920
Speaker 1: them or not come close to finding them? Um, not

2053
01:51:33,120 --> 01:51:36,040
Speaker 1: very close. The Spaniard you're talking about as a man

2054
01:51:36,080 --> 01:51:39,240
Speaker 1: by the name of Pedro Val and he was commissioned

2055
01:51:39,280 --> 01:51:41,479
Speaker 1: by the Spanish. The Spanish had a lot of resentment

2056
01:51:41,520 --> 01:51:45,160
Speaker 1: when the French sold the Louisiana territory to the United States.

2057
01:51:45,960 --> 01:51:49,439
Speaker 1: And it was a situation that once Lewis and Clark,

2058
01:51:49,479 --> 01:51:51,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you can say, well, yeah, but the United

2059
01:51:51,160 --> 01:51:53,920
Speaker 1: States bought Louisiana territory, that's only goes up to the

2060
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:57,880
Speaker 1: Continental Divine. Uh, anything west of the Rockies, that's that's

2061
01:51:57,960 --> 01:52:00,799
Speaker 1: claimed by again the Spanish, by the British, by the Russians,

2062
01:52:01,400 --> 01:52:04,559
Speaker 1: and so once they get beyond that area, they're kind

2063
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:06,920
Speaker 1: of fair game, if we will. And so the Spanish

2064
01:52:06,960 --> 01:52:10,320
Speaker 1: sent out pedro Vial at least three times, and there

2065
01:52:10,360 --> 01:52:13,400
Speaker 1: were probably four different expeditions by the Spanish themselves to

2066
01:52:13,520 --> 01:52:16,400
Speaker 1: try to intercept Lewis and Clark. Each time they sent

2067
01:52:16,479 --> 01:52:19,360
Speaker 1: them out, they were they were way off. They were

2068
01:52:19,400 --> 01:52:21,479
Speaker 1: hoping to have a gunfight with them. They were hoping

2069
01:52:21,560 --> 01:52:25,040
Speaker 1: to intercept them, take their records. Uh certainly probably not

2070
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:28,040
Speaker 1: just imprisoned them, but probably yeah, do do away with them,

2071
01:52:28,840 --> 01:52:31,479
Speaker 1: because they saw them as a threat to the Spanish territory.

2072
01:52:31,479 --> 01:52:34,080
Speaker 1: How many guys that they have with them, it varied

2073
01:52:34,200 --> 01:52:36,640
Speaker 1: um that there were some situations where they had as

2074
01:52:36,680 --> 01:52:40,880
Speaker 1: many as fifty or sixty men with so they're more

2075
01:52:41,000 --> 01:52:44,600
Speaker 1: down you know, when Zebulin Pike. He was also in

2076
01:52:44,680 --> 01:52:46,880
Speaker 1: a situation similar to Lewis and Clark. Course he's going

2077
01:52:46,920 --> 01:52:49,320
Speaker 1: to the southwest when they're going to the northwest. And

2078
01:52:49,560 --> 01:52:53,000
Speaker 1: Pike was was captured by the Spanish, and so whether

2079
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:56,640
Speaker 1: you know, eventually they released him. But would they have

2080
01:52:56,720 --> 01:52:59,599
Speaker 1: done the same thing with Clark maybe a bigger question.

2081
01:52:59,720 --> 01:53:03,040
Speaker 1: Would Lewis and Clark allowed themselves to be caught or

2082
01:53:03,080 --> 01:53:05,280
Speaker 1: would they put up a fight to the end. And

2083
01:53:05,320 --> 01:53:06,680
Speaker 1: I think they probably would have put up a fight

2084
01:53:06,720 --> 01:53:08,840
Speaker 1: to the end. Jed Smith got caught and detained by

2085
01:53:08,880 --> 01:53:13,240
Speaker 1: the Spanish when you crossed the Mohabbean to California right now,

2086
01:53:13,320 --> 01:53:16,120
Speaker 1: So that I mean the Spanish were very concerned about

2087
01:53:16,160 --> 01:53:18,479
Speaker 1: what was going on. Did Lewis and Clark know that

2088
01:53:18,560 --> 01:53:21,320
Speaker 1: they were being hunted? No? No, Now, they had no

2089
01:53:21,360 --> 01:53:24,880
Speaker 1: idea because they were so far removed from what the

2090
01:53:24,920 --> 01:53:29,280
Speaker 1: Spanish were doing that there was no communication, no indication that, oh, yeah,

2091
01:53:29,320 --> 01:53:31,280
Speaker 1: the Spanish are are trying to intercept you or anything

2092
01:53:31,320 --> 01:53:33,400
Speaker 1: like that. No, And and you're you're looking at for

2093
01:53:33,600 --> 01:53:36,679
Speaker 1: you know, two years and four months plus that they're

2094
01:53:36,720 --> 01:53:39,720
Speaker 1: off the face of the earth. Nobody knows where they are,

2095
01:53:39,880 --> 01:53:42,680
Speaker 1: what they're doing. If they're still alive, anything like that.

2096
01:53:43,280 --> 01:53:45,320
Speaker 1: And so it's not until they start coming back that

2097
01:53:45,400 --> 01:53:47,840
Speaker 1: they start running into a lot of these people who

2098
01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:50,799
Speaker 1: are heading out west for the trade and for the trapping,

2099
01:53:51,520 --> 01:53:54,880
Speaker 1: and uh then of course people realize, oh, they're still here,

2100
01:53:54,920 --> 01:53:57,600
Speaker 1: they're still alive. They made it. And even at that

2101
01:53:57,720 --> 01:54:01,200
Speaker 1: you talk about Lewis and his depression. When he gets back,

2102
01:54:01,479 --> 01:54:04,040
Speaker 1: he starts writing a letter to Jefferson, and he goes

2103
01:54:04,080 --> 01:54:07,200
Speaker 1: on to say that we accomplished all these great things,

2104
01:54:07,280 --> 01:54:10,760
Speaker 1: we identified this and that and uh. But then he

2105
01:54:10,800 --> 01:54:14,000
Speaker 1: goes on and say, however, we we failed to find

2106
01:54:14,360 --> 01:54:17,280
Speaker 1: a good water route to the Pacific northwest, which was

2107
01:54:17,400 --> 01:54:20,960
Speaker 1: really their big objective to explore the waters of the

2108
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:24,479
Speaker 1: Missouri River across the continent and and try to use

2109
01:54:24,560 --> 01:54:27,560
Speaker 1: that for trade purposes. And it just didn't exist, you know.

2110
01:54:28,240 --> 01:54:32,200
Speaker 1: Uh So in that case, all these great things, but sorry,

2111
01:54:32,360 --> 01:54:34,879
Speaker 1: we we failed. We we missed the number one objective

2112
01:54:34,920 --> 01:54:39,120
Speaker 1: that you had for us. When I read Undaunted Courage,

2113
01:54:39,160 --> 01:54:42,560
Speaker 1: I was I was very frustrated, as an armchair quarterback

2114
01:54:42,760 --> 01:54:47,920
Speaker 1: two hundred years later about how it seemed every interaction

2115
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:51,160
Speaker 1: with a tribe that went poorly could have been diffused

2116
01:54:51,560 --> 01:54:54,280
Speaker 1: by giving them what they wanted, which was usually like

2117
01:54:54,400 --> 01:54:57,400
Speaker 1: ammo or guns, and so was was it like a

2118
01:54:57,480 --> 01:54:59,960
Speaker 1: strategic choice that we don't they could be our enemy,

2119
01:55:00,040 --> 01:55:01,640
Speaker 1: so we don't want to give them animal guns or

2120
01:55:01,680 --> 01:55:04,040
Speaker 1: were they like really limited supplies that that stuff was

2121
01:55:04,080 --> 01:55:07,560
Speaker 1: still valuable, Like why weren't they more willing to part

2122
01:55:07,600 --> 01:55:10,520
Speaker 1: with those things instead of always trying to negotiate with

2123
01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:13,200
Speaker 1: like beads and medals that the tribes didn't care about.

2124
01:55:13,360 --> 01:55:18,720
Speaker 1: I think I think it depended out on the tribe

2125
01:55:18,960 --> 01:55:21,680
Speaker 1: because they had when they met with the Yankton Sue

2126
01:55:21,760 --> 01:55:25,120
Speaker 1: August thirties and thirty one, things went really well. They

2127
01:55:25,320 --> 01:55:28,960
Speaker 1: were very agreeable to trading with American traders in the future.

2128
01:55:29,400 --> 01:55:33,200
Speaker 1: But there was a Yankton sioue elder by the name

2129
01:55:33,240 --> 01:55:35,840
Speaker 1: of half Man, and he said, now, the next group

2130
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:39,080
Speaker 1: you meet, the Titon or the tita One Siue, their

2131
01:55:39,280 --> 01:55:41,280
Speaker 1: their ears will not be as open as ours. They're

2132
01:55:41,280 --> 01:55:43,440
Speaker 1: not gonna be as receptive. So and of course they

2133
01:55:43,520 --> 01:55:47,920
Speaker 1: knew they heard about the reputational Dakota even even back east,

2134
01:55:47,960 --> 01:55:50,360
Speaker 1: you know, even before all this began. And when they're

2135
01:55:50,360 --> 01:55:52,880
Speaker 1: in St. Louis, certainly there's more people saying, oh, you know,

2136
01:55:53,000 --> 01:55:55,280
Speaker 1: watch out for the for the Tita one. And so

2137
01:55:56,080 --> 01:56:02,160
Speaker 1: they they get there and those four days September, up

2138
01:56:02,240 --> 01:56:04,880
Speaker 1: and down. It's a roller coaster ride. Uh. They talked

2139
01:56:04,880 --> 01:56:11,080
Speaker 1: about how they they invited the three UH leaders Black Buffalo, Buffalo, Medicine,

2140
01:56:11,080 --> 01:56:12,680
Speaker 1: and the one who was referred to as a partisan

2141
01:56:12,720 --> 01:56:16,080
Speaker 1: out to the keel boat offered them alcohol, and that

2142
01:56:16,400 --> 01:56:19,400
Speaker 1: when they went to return them to the shoreline that

2143
01:56:19,560 --> 01:56:21,680
Speaker 1: the one who was referred to as a partisan, he

2144
01:56:21,720 --> 01:56:23,920
Speaker 1: started to feign drunkenness and he kind of brushed up

2145
01:56:23,960 --> 01:56:26,080
Speaker 1: against Clark. It gets to the point where Clark draws

2146
01:56:26,160 --> 01:56:28,560
Speaker 1: his sword and the men on on board the boats

2147
01:56:28,600 --> 01:56:31,120
Speaker 1: they start getting their their weapons ready. The Lakota they

2148
01:56:31,120 --> 01:56:33,520
Speaker 1: start getting their bow and arrows ready, and there's a

2149
01:56:33,720 --> 01:56:35,760
Speaker 1: very tense moment that if anybody would have fired a

2150
01:56:35,800 --> 01:56:37,720
Speaker 1: shot on either side, it probably would have been the

2151
01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:41,040
Speaker 1: end of the Lewis and Clark expedition. Fortunately, Black Buffalo

2152
01:56:41,200 --> 01:56:44,080
Speaker 1: he was the one who stepped in and calmed things down.

2153
01:56:44,240 --> 01:56:47,120
Speaker 1: And and but when they stayed on an island that night,

2154
01:56:47,160 --> 01:56:49,720
Speaker 1: they called it bad humored Island because it was not

2155
01:56:49,840 --> 01:56:53,240
Speaker 1: a good day. The next day they talked about feasting.

2156
01:56:53,440 --> 01:56:56,080
Speaker 1: They talked about how Lewis and Clark were individually carried

2157
01:56:56,120 --> 01:56:58,560
Speaker 1: in on buffalo robes, that there was a night of

2158
01:56:58,680 --> 01:57:02,400
Speaker 1: dancing and you know, pletely different scenario than the day before.

2159
01:57:02,680 --> 01:57:04,640
Speaker 1: But it goes back and forth like that. And then

2160
01:57:04,800 --> 01:57:07,680
Speaker 1: then they find out that, uh, through a couple of

2161
01:57:07,720 --> 01:57:11,280
Speaker 1: the menu Purezat whom I had mentioned before, the person

2162
01:57:11,320 --> 01:57:16,680
Speaker 1: who accidentally shot Louis, he was a French and Omaha background.

2163
01:57:17,200 --> 01:57:19,160
Speaker 1: There was another person my name of Francois la Beche

2164
01:57:19,160 --> 01:57:22,560
Speaker 1: who was also French and Omaha. And because of the

2165
01:57:22,640 --> 01:57:25,520
Speaker 1: Omaha side of their family, they knew a little bit

2166
01:57:25,600 --> 01:57:29,200
Speaker 1: about the the Lakota language. And from what they could

2167
01:57:29,240 --> 01:57:32,120
Speaker 1: gather that they thought that they're not gonna let us leave.

2168
01:57:32,400 --> 01:57:34,360
Speaker 1: They're gonna they're gonna prevent us from going up the

2169
01:57:34,360 --> 01:57:37,280
Speaker 1: Missouri River. So eventually, on that that fourth day, when

2170
01:57:37,280 --> 01:57:41,120
Speaker 1: they're ready to take off again, you have the partisans say,

2171
01:57:41,160 --> 01:57:43,520
Speaker 1: come on, just give me some more tobacco, you know,

2172
01:57:43,640 --> 01:57:45,120
Speaker 1: just give us some more gifts. We know you have

2173
01:57:45,160 --> 01:57:47,920
Speaker 1: a whole boatload of all these things. But it's one

2174
01:57:47,960 --> 01:57:49,320
Speaker 1: of those things that one they didn't want to be

2175
01:57:49,400 --> 01:57:52,440
Speaker 1: bullied into doing something like that, and too they certainly

2176
01:57:52,480 --> 01:57:54,440
Speaker 1: did not want to give them any any weapons that

2177
01:57:54,520 --> 01:57:58,080
Speaker 1: they could use because they just had that reputation when

2178
01:57:58,160 --> 01:58:01,360
Speaker 1: they meet with the arec Ra You know that that

2179
01:58:01,480 --> 01:58:04,120
Speaker 1: was quite well with the man dance. You know that

2180
01:58:04,240 --> 01:58:07,480
Speaker 1: they spent the whole winter working with the man dance. Uh.

2181
01:58:07,680 --> 01:58:11,480
Speaker 1: When they crossed the the Lolo past took much longer

2182
01:58:11,520 --> 01:58:14,280
Speaker 1: than they anticipated. But when they met with the Nez Purse,

2183
01:58:15,120 --> 01:58:18,760
Speaker 1: they were so hungry that they gorged themselves on on

2184
01:58:19,080 --> 01:58:22,160
Speaker 1: dried fish and camus roots, and they became very ill.

2185
01:58:22,200 --> 01:58:26,440
Speaker 1: I mean they're lying around, moaning and groaning. They're completely incapacitated.

2186
01:58:26,840 --> 01:58:28,840
Speaker 1: And the Nez Purse thought about what it would be

2187
01:58:28,920 --> 01:58:31,240
Speaker 1: so easy to go around and just kill all these

2188
01:58:31,280 --> 01:58:33,480
Speaker 1: guys and take their weapons. They'd be the most powerful

2189
01:58:33,600 --> 01:58:36,360
Speaker 1: nation and in that area. And there was a Nez

2190
01:58:36,400 --> 01:58:39,560
Speaker 1: person woman the name of Watt Kueis, who, similar to Scakawee,

2191
01:58:39,680 --> 01:58:42,320
Speaker 1: she had been taken by the black Feet, ended up

2192
01:58:42,640 --> 01:58:45,360
Speaker 1: being sold up in Canada, living with with white men,

2193
01:58:45,760 --> 01:58:49,120
Speaker 1: and then eventually returned to her people. And she said

2194
01:58:49,160 --> 01:58:50,760
Speaker 1: that when she lived with the with the white men

2195
01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:53,120
Speaker 1: that they treated her very well. And so she was

2196
01:58:53,200 --> 01:58:55,040
Speaker 1: the one who acted on behalf of the Lewis and

2197
01:58:55,040 --> 01:58:57,840
Speaker 1: Clark exhibitions that don't do them any harm. You know

2198
01:58:57,960 --> 01:59:01,080
Speaker 1: that they're they're not bad people. But again, it would

2199
01:59:01,080 --> 01:59:02,400
Speaker 1: have been one of the situations where it could have

2200
01:59:02,440 --> 01:59:05,240
Speaker 1: gone either way. So it really depended on what she

2201
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:10,240
Speaker 1: could have been saying, they're obviously gonna die out here anywhere. Yeah,

2202
01:59:10,480 --> 01:59:13,360
Speaker 1: it's it's one of the things where so so many

2203
01:59:13,400 --> 01:59:15,200
Speaker 1: things are just so pivotal, like it could have gone

2204
01:59:15,320 --> 01:59:20,440
Speaker 1: one way or the or the other. So yeah, it's

2205
01:59:20,480 --> 01:59:22,480
Speaker 1: fascinating to think about. Man, if they had all got

2206
01:59:22,600 --> 01:59:27,200
Speaker 1: dusted off, like everything, you know, you get into like

2207
01:59:27,280 --> 01:59:32,600
Speaker 1: this like the butterfly and what's that thing called the

2208
01:59:32,680 --> 01:59:35,680
Speaker 1: butterfly effects? So who knows, but like it probably would

2209
01:59:35,680 --> 01:59:38,600
Speaker 1: have been inevitable, Like what happened would have been inevitable.

2210
01:59:39,120 --> 01:59:43,840
Speaker 1: If they had all gotten killed, right manifest destiny, you

2211
01:59:44,000 --> 01:59:46,280
Speaker 1: probably would have marched on man. Oh yeah, absolutely. And

2212
01:59:47,000 --> 01:59:49,200
Speaker 1: that's like saying, you know, well, can you imagine if

2213
01:59:49,280 --> 01:59:53,000
Speaker 1: Coleumbus and not discovered the America as well? It would

2214
01:59:53,000 --> 01:59:54,880
Speaker 1: have been somebody else, And and had it not been

2215
01:59:54,960 --> 01:59:57,760
Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark, it would have been somebody else. But

2216
01:59:58,240 --> 02:00:00,000
Speaker 1: you know, how much of a role did they play

2217
02:00:00,160 --> 02:00:02,360
Speaker 1: in history? Like I said, it's not just a story,

2218
02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:04,760
Speaker 1: it's it's a bunch of stories. You have all these

2219
02:00:04,800 --> 02:00:08,800
Speaker 1: different individuals who involved in different different tribal nations. You

2220
02:00:08,920 --> 02:00:12,280
Speaker 1: have all the accomplishments that they had with with the

2221
02:00:12,320 --> 02:00:15,200
Speaker 1: plant life and animal life and geography and geology and

2222
02:00:15,800 --> 02:00:18,280
Speaker 1: and just just all the things that they did over

2223
02:00:18,360 --> 02:00:20,520
Speaker 1: that period of time. And to think that only one

2224
02:00:20,600 --> 02:00:23,360
Speaker 1: person died, you know that that's the fascinating part. And

2225
02:00:23,480 --> 02:00:27,440
Speaker 1: they always say that Charlie Fluke, Charles Floyd, if he

2226
02:00:27,560 --> 02:00:30,000
Speaker 1: could have been in Philadelphia and he would have died

2227
02:00:30,040 --> 02:00:32,560
Speaker 1: of a pennicitis, you know. So the fact that he

2228
02:00:32,720 --> 02:00:35,400
Speaker 1: was out here in the wilderness, well that was really

2229
02:00:35,640 --> 02:00:38,520
Speaker 1: not a not a big point, pivotal point, because it

2230
02:00:38,680 --> 02:00:40,560
Speaker 1: was it was something that was not treatable back then.

2231
02:00:41,440 --> 02:00:43,800
Speaker 1: Oh one last thing, I wish I'd ask you this earlier.

2232
02:00:44,200 --> 02:00:46,160
Speaker 1: They had different taste and fish than we have now.

2233
02:00:47,720 --> 02:00:51,040
Speaker 1: Like they liked the stuff now, Like did they like uh,

2234
02:00:51,960 --> 02:00:54,800
Speaker 1: gold night, gold eyes, moon eyes a lot. Well, they

2235
02:00:54,840 --> 02:00:57,040
Speaker 1: called them salmon. I think they called him like prairie

2236
02:00:57,080 --> 02:00:59,360
Speaker 1: salmon says. It's just another like funny spot to to

2237
02:00:59,480 --> 02:01:03,200
Speaker 1: think of um gold eye now being a salmon. But

2238
02:01:03,280 --> 02:01:05,960
Speaker 1: they liked them, and that's not regarded as like a

2239
02:01:06,040 --> 02:01:08,920
Speaker 1: bony ass trash fish, right, and I was like their

2240
02:01:08,960 --> 02:01:11,680
Speaker 1: favorite fish. They're tried to eat one. Oh yeah, smoke

2241
02:01:11,720 --> 02:01:13,800
Speaker 1: the great because you could peel the meat off the

2242
02:01:13,880 --> 02:01:16,440
Speaker 1: bones and there were very good smoke fish. Cutthroats were

2243
02:01:16,520 --> 02:01:21,280
Speaker 1: named after Clark, right, yeah, yeah, how you had like

2244
02:01:21,760 --> 02:01:26,640
Speaker 1: Lewis's woodpecker, Clark's I'm trying to think about a bird

2245
02:01:26,720 --> 02:01:30,200
Speaker 1: named after him? Is the Clark's not hatch that Clark? Yes?

2246
02:01:31,000 --> 02:01:34,920
Speaker 1: And then the cutthroat trout it's not different name, yeah,

2247
02:01:35,480 --> 02:01:40,640
Speaker 1: is nut cracker. I feel like most people that are

2248
02:01:40,680 --> 02:01:44,400
Speaker 1: interested in Lewis and Clark pick up undaunted courage. But

2249
02:01:44,720 --> 02:01:47,240
Speaker 1: if you were going to suggest another book or another author,

2250
02:01:47,560 --> 02:01:51,680
Speaker 1: what would that be. Depends on your interests In my case,

2251
02:01:51,680 --> 02:01:54,520
Speaker 1: because a lot of my researches with the Northern Plains,

2252
02:01:54,600 --> 02:01:59,120
Speaker 1: and so I always like looking at James Ronda's Lewis

2253
02:01:59,160 --> 02:02:02,240
Speaker 1: and Clark among the Ins because it deals with each

2254
02:02:02,280 --> 02:02:05,160
Speaker 1: of the different tribal groups that they came in contact with. Overall,

2255
02:02:05,240 --> 02:02:08,800
Speaker 1: they would meet with nearly fifty different nations. Uh. A

2256
02:02:08,880 --> 02:02:10,560
Speaker 1: lot of people point out that, oh, Yeah, but they

2257
02:02:10,640 --> 02:02:13,000
Speaker 1: learned about a lot more, you know, so some people

2258
02:02:13,040 --> 02:02:15,800
Speaker 1: say as many as one hundred that they were became

2259
02:02:15,880 --> 02:02:18,560
Speaker 1: knowledgeable about. And James rond It does a really good

2260
02:02:18,640 --> 02:02:21,600
Speaker 1: job approaching it from that perspective. Uh, as far as

2261
02:02:22,120 --> 02:02:24,720
Speaker 1: the connection between Lewis and Clark and the different groups

2262
02:02:24,760 --> 02:02:27,320
Speaker 1: with whom they came in contact. So if that's your interests,

2263
02:02:27,560 --> 02:02:30,640
Speaker 1: if you're looking at at wildlife, there's several that are

2264
02:02:30,680 --> 02:02:33,400
Speaker 1: out there. But I mentioned that what that I like,

2265
02:02:34,120 --> 02:02:37,440
Speaker 1: not very politically correct by today's standards, but uh, Paul

2266
02:02:37,520 --> 02:02:41,040
Speaker 1: Russell Cut rights Lewis and Clark pioneering naturalists. I like

2267
02:02:41,200 --> 02:02:43,320
Speaker 1: that one because it does break it down what they

2268
02:02:43,400 --> 02:02:45,560
Speaker 1: were seeing in terms of plant life and animal life

2269
02:02:46,440 --> 02:02:50,000
Speaker 1: throughout the expedition. And of course Gary Moulton's thirteen volumes

2270
02:02:50,040 --> 02:02:53,440
Speaker 1: of the Lewis and Clark Journals with all the notations.

2271
02:02:53,680 --> 02:02:57,000
Speaker 1: That's that's always uh something that you have to look at,

2272
02:02:57,080 --> 02:03:00,000
Speaker 1: I guess, just because it doesn't have the maps that include,

2273
02:03:00,400 --> 02:03:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, where they were and how how things have changed,

2274
02:03:03,560 --> 02:03:06,040
Speaker 1: like the Missouri River, how the course has changed so much.

2275
02:03:06,800 --> 02:03:08,960
Speaker 1: But he puts it into perspective again as far as

2276
02:03:09,680 --> 02:03:12,280
Speaker 1: where was where, where did this actually take place, you know,

2277
02:03:12,360 --> 02:03:18,680
Speaker 1: so that that's important. Undaunted courage. Uh. I heard Steven

2278
02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:21,720
Speaker 1: Ambrose speaks several times before he passed away, and and

2279
02:03:22,280 --> 02:03:25,080
Speaker 1: he always talked about how when he first went to

2280
02:03:25,200 --> 02:03:26,800
Speaker 1: his publisher and said, well, I'd like to do something

2281
02:03:26,800 --> 02:03:29,240
Speaker 1: on Lewis and Clark. This is back in and so

2282
02:03:29,600 --> 02:03:32,800
Speaker 1: people were beginning to think of the bicentennial coming up

2283
02:03:32,840 --> 02:03:35,920
Speaker 1: in two thousand four, two thousand and six, and his

2284
02:03:36,000 --> 02:03:38,920
Speaker 1: publisher said, well, you know, very reluctantly, said well how

2285
02:03:38,960 --> 02:03:42,160
Speaker 1: about it. We start with five thousand copies and uh,

2286
02:03:42,280 --> 02:03:44,880
Speaker 1: Ambrose said, five hundred thousand copies I hope before gets

2287
02:03:44,920 --> 02:03:48,480
Speaker 1: sold than that. By two thousand one, three million copies

2288
02:03:48,640 --> 02:03:51,400
Speaker 1: have been sold. Uh. It still is one that that

2289
02:03:51,520 --> 02:03:56,480
Speaker 1: people know Stephen Ambrose and an undaunted courage. Um. It

2290
02:03:56,640 --> 02:03:59,680
Speaker 1: does have its critics as well, because he makes a

2291
02:03:59,760 --> 02:04:02,320
Speaker 1: lot of assumptions. You know. It's like, well, in the

2292
02:04:02,400 --> 02:04:06,000
Speaker 1: case of the of the Titouan situation, he talks about

2293
02:04:06,760 --> 02:04:08,760
Speaker 1: it spends a whole page talking about, well, what if

2294
02:04:09,120 --> 02:04:11,480
Speaker 1: somebody would have fired a shot? You know, uh, they

2295
02:04:11,520 --> 02:04:14,360
Speaker 1: probably would have you know, focused on on Lewis and

2296
02:04:14,440 --> 02:04:16,320
Speaker 1: Clark first, and you know, I went out through this

2297
02:04:16,400 --> 02:04:18,800
Speaker 1: whole scenario, and then then the others would have drifted

2298
02:04:18,840 --> 02:04:21,720
Speaker 1: back down the river to escape, and it didn't happen,

2299
02:04:21,840 --> 02:04:24,840
Speaker 1: you know, Black Buffalo intervened and things calmed down and

2300
02:04:25,000 --> 02:04:27,640
Speaker 1: they made it through that that whole situation. But he says,

2301
02:04:27,680 --> 02:04:32,440
Speaker 1: what if you know, what if he stepped he stepped

2302
02:04:32,440 --> 02:04:34,920
Speaker 1: out of his role as a historian, right right. And

2303
02:04:35,000 --> 02:04:37,000
Speaker 1: then then there's a lot of other times too where

2304
02:04:37,280 --> 02:04:40,320
Speaker 1: he'll he'll spend you know, half a page, three fourth

2305
02:04:40,400 --> 02:04:43,320
Speaker 1: of page, and he'll say, well, according to James Ronda. Well,

2306
02:04:43,360 --> 02:04:45,680
Speaker 1: then he'll quote James Ronda for a half a page

2307
02:04:45,760 --> 02:04:48,040
Speaker 1: or three fourths of page, and then people start thinking,

2308
02:04:48,520 --> 02:04:50,920
Speaker 1: maybe I should just read James Ronda, you know, because

2309
02:04:51,680 --> 02:04:54,480
Speaker 1: that's what, you know, what made him, I think a

2310
02:04:54,560 --> 02:04:58,480
Speaker 1: prolific writer is that he used other people's works extensively.

2311
02:04:58,880 --> 02:05:00,560
Speaker 1: And he did get into a little trouble and with

2312
02:05:00,640 --> 02:05:04,520
Speaker 1: that and plagiarism issues towards the very end. But I

2313
02:05:04,560 --> 02:05:07,400
Speaker 1: think it's just the fact that, you know, he did

2314
02:05:07,600 --> 02:05:09,240
Speaker 1: rely on a lot of sources, and he was putting

2315
02:05:09,280 --> 02:05:11,760
Speaker 1: out books after books after books, and he's on top.

2316
02:05:11,880 --> 02:05:14,160
Speaker 1: People want to knock him down, yeah, and other people

2317
02:05:14,200 --> 02:05:16,120
Speaker 1: are doing a lot of the research for him, and

2318
02:05:16,320 --> 02:05:19,000
Speaker 1: he's putting it all together. But when you read Steven

2319
02:05:19,040 --> 02:05:22,160
Speaker 1: Ambrose is undone and courage, I mean, having listened to

2320
02:05:22,240 --> 02:05:24,760
Speaker 1: the person speak in person, or if you watch him

2321
02:05:24,800 --> 02:05:27,960
Speaker 1: in some documentary, you can just hear his voice when

2322
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:30,560
Speaker 1: you're reading his work. You know that, Well, it just

2323
02:05:30,680 --> 02:05:34,240
Speaker 1: sounds like Steven Ambrose, you can just hear it so well. Uh.

2324
02:05:35,040 --> 02:05:37,680
Speaker 1: I've read references here and there that you know, it's

2325
02:05:37,680 --> 02:05:43,080
Speaker 1: acknowledged that no one has gotten the movie right, you

2326
02:05:43,120 --> 02:05:45,000
Speaker 1: know what I mean. And it's like it's like this

2327
02:05:45,160 --> 02:05:48,560
Speaker 1: thing you just can't it's too big to get a

2328
02:05:48,600 --> 02:05:53,000
Speaker 1: grip on. But it haunts various filmmakers, and I wonder what,

2329
02:05:53,400 --> 02:05:58,040
Speaker 1: like you know, like SE's like like c G I

2330
02:05:58,160 --> 02:06:00,760
Speaker 1: would help, right, it would be like an epic thing.

2331
02:06:00,880 --> 02:06:03,120
Speaker 1: I just wonder if someone's ever gonna be able to

2332
02:06:03,400 --> 02:06:07,200
Speaker 1: really take it on. I know that HBO was working

2333
02:06:07,280 --> 02:06:09,120
Speaker 1: on it for a long time. They were going to

2334
02:06:09,200 --> 02:06:11,480
Speaker 1: do a kind of a mini series, and that that

2335
02:06:11,600 --> 02:06:13,520
Speaker 1: fell by the wayside. I mean that was that was

2336
02:06:13,600 --> 02:06:16,160
Speaker 1: probably it's fifteen years ago. You're thinking c G I

2337
02:06:16,280 --> 02:06:20,720
Speaker 1: for the Tiger Cat, but just making the Yeah, I

2338
02:06:20,760 --> 02:06:23,040
Speaker 1: mean just but think about you gotta deal with your

2339
02:06:23,080 --> 02:06:29,200
Speaker 1: dealing with upstream and you're dealing with like character whatever,

2340
02:06:29,320 --> 02:06:34,840
Speaker 1: what number forty eight characters encountering fifty groups, like fifty

2341
02:06:34,840 --> 02:06:38,880
Speaker 1: indigenous groups. I mean it's huge and like it haunts

2342
02:06:38,960 --> 02:06:42,600
Speaker 1: people that you could ever really do good for. I'd

2343
02:06:42,720 --> 02:06:46,879
Speaker 1: end with that, like you know, big budget, big budget,

2344
02:06:47,440 --> 02:06:50,360
Speaker 1: multi season. See, the thing is that you're always gonna

2345
02:06:50,480 --> 02:06:54,320
Speaker 1: have the the drama part that's added to make it

2346
02:06:54,440 --> 02:06:57,160
Speaker 1: a good movie, you know. And and there has been

2347
02:06:57,440 --> 02:07:00,200
Speaker 1: a couple of love story about York and oh uh

2348
02:07:00,240 --> 02:07:01,920
Speaker 1: and and there is that movie that came out back

2349
02:07:01,960 --> 02:07:05,200
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties. I think it was h Donna

2350
02:07:05,320 --> 02:07:08,560
Speaker 1: Reid played the part of of of Chicago wea Zaca

2351
02:07:08,600 --> 02:07:11,440
Speaker 1: Juwia back then. Uh. He had Fred McMurray from My

2352
02:07:11,600 --> 02:07:16,800
Speaker 1: Three Sons. He he was playing Lewis. Charlton Heston played Clark. Uh.

2353
02:07:16,960 --> 02:07:19,839
Speaker 1: There's there's a knife fight where Clark and Toussaint Charboneau

2354
02:07:19,920 --> 02:07:23,560
Speaker 1: or going around the campfire fighting over Chicago wea know,

2355
02:07:23,640 --> 02:07:25,760
Speaker 1: which was not not the case or anything like that.

2356
02:07:26,080 --> 02:07:28,280
Speaker 1: But and then there's one part where they can help them.

2357
02:07:28,960 --> 02:07:31,960
Speaker 1: They're going over the portage of the great falls and

2358
02:07:32,200 --> 02:07:35,200
Speaker 1: and you know they're they're pulling this keel boat with them,

2359
02:07:35,280 --> 02:07:37,320
Speaker 1: which the keel boat had gone down ruver. There's no

2360
02:07:37,400 --> 02:07:39,280
Speaker 1: way you're gonna pull that great, big boat over the

2361
02:07:39,320 --> 02:07:42,560
Speaker 1: mountains or anything like that. But it's in there, and

2362
02:07:42,600 --> 02:07:47,280
Speaker 1: it's just ridiculous. Um. There's also one called I can't

2363
02:07:47,280 --> 02:07:49,640
Speaker 1: think of the case right now, but Matthew Perry and

2364
02:07:50,000 --> 02:07:55,200
Speaker 1: h oh um, Chris Farley and and that's where you

2365
02:07:55,240 --> 02:07:59,200
Speaker 1: see the Spanish chasing them, you know, Paydrovale, Well Farley

2366
02:07:59,240 --> 02:08:03,000
Speaker 1: and and Matthew Perry there there there leading expedition at

2367
02:08:03,040 --> 02:08:04,960
Speaker 1: the same time of Lewis and Clark, so kind of

2368
02:08:05,040 --> 02:08:07,080
Speaker 1: racing Lewis and Clark. You know, I get it. It

2369
02:08:07,280 --> 02:08:09,880
Speaker 1: makes for a funny movie and everything, but there's a

2370
02:08:09,920 --> 02:08:14,520
Speaker 1: lot of yeah, right, uh, but anytime you have a

2371
02:08:14,600 --> 02:08:18,120
Speaker 1: situation like this, uh, you're you're gonna have something thrown

2372
02:08:18,160 --> 02:08:22,000
Speaker 1: in there for special effects. In South Dakota, quite honestly,

2373
02:08:22,840 --> 02:08:26,400
Speaker 1: we all laugh at at the Revenant the movie. Okay, thing, dude,

2374
02:08:26,440 --> 02:08:28,960
Speaker 1: it was the greatest crime, greatest crime against America that

2375
02:08:29,080 --> 02:08:32,440
Speaker 1: happens in August up in the northwestern part of South Dakota.

2376
02:08:32,760 --> 02:08:35,080
Speaker 1: And you see the mountains that okay, we don't have mountains.

2377
02:08:35,120 --> 02:08:38,440
Speaker 1: There should be like a Nuremberg trial for there was.

2378
02:08:38,520 --> 02:08:41,880
Speaker 1: There was a lot of things in there that's thought, no, no, no, yeah,

2379
02:08:42,000 --> 02:08:45,200
Speaker 1: shooting that ship in British Columbia, give me up, right.

2380
02:08:45,680 --> 02:08:49,360
Speaker 1: But man, if if you like hours of grunting, that's

2381
02:08:49,960 --> 02:08:52,800
Speaker 1: a huge attack grunting and crawl, and I think that's

2382
02:08:52,840 --> 02:08:55,040
Speaker 1: the Tappico would happen if they did something with Lewis

2383
02:08:55,040 --> 02:08:57,920
Speaker 1: and Clark. There'd be so many things added to it,

2384
02:08:58,080 --> 02:09:01,920
Speaker 1: just live in up So yeah, it would be bad. Man.

2385
02:09:02,040 --> 02:09:03,400
Speaker 1: I would like one of the many things I want

2386
02:09:03,400 --> 02:09:07,560
Speaker 1: to do when I retire is take on Boone in film.

2387
02:09:08,480 --> 02:09:10,080
Speaker 1: You know, I would be great to write, to write

2388
02:09:10,080 --> 02:09:13,320
Speaker 1: a script that would be uh man. I would never

2389
02:09:13,400 --> 02:09:15,160
Speaker 1: want to take this on because it's like, you know

2390
02:09:15,200 --> 02:09:17,120
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like Boone spent a lot of time

2391
02:09:17,160 --> 02:09:20,560
Speaker 1: with a couple other people, and then, as I mentioned

2392
02:09:20,600 --> 02:09:22,600
Speaker 1: at the very beginning, a lot of the things that

2393
02:09:22,640 --> 02:09:25,840
Speaker 1: I mentioned today, they're very controversial. I mean they're gonna

2394
02:09:25,840 --> 02:09:27,720
Speaker 1: be people cringe at some of the things I said,

2395
02:09:27,720 --> 02:09:29,880
Speaker 1: and they were people say yeah, yeah, that's tell me.

2396
02:09:29,920 --> 02:09:36,400
Speaker 1: The most controversial thing you said Chicago were sasakais Lewis

2397
02:09:36,520 --> 02:09:41,280
Speaker 1: murder or suicide, those issues, the role of Chicago wea,

2398
02:09:41,760 --> 02:09:45,800
Speaker 1: um Lewis paternity, you know, did he actually father a child?

2399
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:48,840
Speaker 1: I mean, those are all those people that really emotionally

2400
02:09:48,920 --> 02:09:52,520
Speaker 1: care about those answers. Yes, Yes, they emotionally care. Yes.

2401
02:09:53,240 --> 02:09:55,840
Speaker 1: They get tied into so much. And when I give

2402
02:09:55,920 --> 02:09:58,480
Speaker 1: talks as a teacher, a lot of times I'll point out, well,

2403
02:09:58,560 --> 02:10:00,120
Speaker 1: you know, there are people who believe this, and there

2404
02:10:00,160 --> 02:10:02,560
Speaker 1: are people who believe that. And I don't always say, well,

2405
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:04,720
Speaker 1: I think that this is what happened to Lewis, or

2406
02:10:04,760 --> 02:10:06,600
Speaker 1: I think that this is you know, what happened. I

2407
02:10:06,800 --> 02:10:10,160
Speaker 1: have my my personal leanings. But at the same time

2408
02:10:10,200 --> 02:10:13,040
Speaker 1: I realized that there are people who are very adamant

2409
02:10:13,120 --> 02:10:15,640
Speaker 1: one way or the other. Yeah, like I said, to

2410
02:10:15,720 --> 02:10:18,080
Speaker 1: go to Lewis and Clark conference. Nice thing is that

2411
02:10:18,120 --> 02:10:20,760
Speaker 1: they're all experts. The bad thing is they're all experts

2412
02:10:20,840 --> 02:10:23,960
Speaker 1: and they never agree. Do you got a lot of

2413
02:10:24,000 --> 02:10:26,840
Speaker 1: those conferences? UM I used to. In the last few

2414
02:10:26,920 --> 02:10:29,960
Speaker 1: years with COVID and everything, I haven't attended anything, but

2415
02:10:30,400 --> 02:10:32,640
Speaker 1: um I still do a lot. With Lewis and Clark.

2416
02:10:32,880 --> 02:10:35,520
Speaker 1: I've worked with this family whose oral tradition is that

2417
02:10:36,280 --> 02:10:39,360
Speaker 1: uh lewis father to a child Joseph to spent Lewis.

2418
02:10:39,440 --> 02:10:43,200
Speaker 1: So I've been working with them. I actually submitted an

2419
02:10:43,280 --> 02:10:46,840
Speaker 1: article uh for pure review. It was turned down because

2420
02:10:46,880 --> 02:10:50,520
Speaker 1: he said, no, it's too controversial. They they they didn't

2421
02:10:50,520 --> 02:10:52,680
Speaker 1: want to go into that. And all this published it

2422
02:10:52,760 --> 02:10:56,920
Speaker 1: on our website. All this family wants to know is

2423
02:10:57,040 --> 02:10:59,120
Speaker 1: you know what is it? Is it true or not?

2424
02:10:59,720 --> 02:11:06,160
Speaker 1: The recalled um the it was Merrywether Lewis uh Winona

2425
02:11:06,320 --> 02:11:10,200
Speaker 1: and the story of Joseph de smitt Lewis. So Lewis

2426
02:11:10,320 --> 02:11:13,160
Speaker 1: being the father, Wona being the mother, and Joseph de

2427
02:11:13,200 --> 02:11:16,800
Speaker 1: smitt Lewis being the child. Have you put it out anywhere? No,

2428
02:11:17,280 --> 02:11:19,040
Speaker 1: just to wait and try to get into academic journey.

2429
02:11:19,040 --> 02:11:21,160
Speaker 1: I might, I might, man, I'll have to make some

2430
02:11:21,280 --> 02:11:23,440
Speaker 1: revisions with it, but I want just tease it with us.

2431
02:11:23,800 --> 02:11:26,560
Speaker 1: And then in fact, even before I came out here,

2432
02:11:26,600 --> 02:11:29,840
Speaker 1: I checked with the person with in the family and

2433
02:11:29,920 --> 02:11:31,440
Speaker 1: I said, I just want to know is there any

2434
02:11:31,560 --> 02:11:35,000
Speaker 1: new advances or anything like that, And he said no,

2435
02:11:35,160 --> 02:11:38,400
Speaker 1: he said, we're we're just trying to find somebody with

2436
02:11:38,840 --> 02:11:42,080
Speaker 1: the Lewis connection. And and I said there's no known

2437
02:11:42,400 --> 02:11:45,120
Speaker 1: Lewis descendants, so it would have to be some other

2438
02:11:45,240 --> 02:11:48,280
Speaker 1: type of relation. But with the DNA, if they could

2439
02:11:48,360 --> 02:11:52,120
Speaker 1: just do the d NA work, they gotta just go

2440
02:11:52,400 --> 02:11:55,320
Speaker 1: dig that bottle. Man, Come, someone needs just going there

2441
02:11:55,360 --> 02:11:57,440
Speaker 1: and do like an act of civil obedience, do little

2442
02:11:57,520 --> 02:12:03,480
Speaker 1: night breath. This fella from Misery seventy years old, card

2443
02:12:03,520 --> 02:12:06,960
Speaker 1: and dispenser. He's got nothing to lose. Yeah, I'd be like,

2444
02:12:07,040 --> 02:12:08,800
Speaker 1: I want you get that show and get that trowel

2445
02:12:09,640 --> 02:12:15,560
Speaker 1: in your bucket, in your backpack, get us some skulls. Man.

2446
02:12:16,920 --> 02:12:21,840
Speaker 1: I like them better now, I like them better. No,

2447
02:12:21,960 --> 02:12:25,320
Speaker 1: it's fascinating, man, it's good stuff. It's a good time

2448
02:12:25,360 --> 02:12:27,160
Speaker 1: in history. I would like to be with those guys.

2449
02:12:27,920 --> 02:12:29,640
Speaker 1: I would have been the guy that got lost or

2450
02:12:29,840 --> 02:12:32,520
Speaker 1: eaten by a grizzly bear. I would not have made it.

2451
02:12:33,920 --> 02:12:36,320
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I have so much anxiety when I'm

2452
02:12:36,360 --> 02:12:38,960
Speaker 1: out on big trips of like, God, this is so

2453
02:12:39,120 --> 02:12:43,640
Speaker 1: awesome right now, but I know tomorrow or tonight I'm

2454
02:12:43,680 --> 02:12:47,680
Speaker 1: gonna bump into another person. And just being in that

2455
02:12:47,960 --> 02:12:51,720
Speaker 1: zone of like I haven't seen anybody for a month

2456
02:12:53,120 --> 02:12:56,200
Speaker 1: and we're still on the river. All right, Come on,

2457
02:12:57,120 --> 02:12:59,880
Speaker 1: I'd give a lot for that. I gotta hit you

2458
02:12:59,880 --> 02:13:02,520
Speaker 1: with one more thing that we're gonna quit. Sure. UM.

2459
02:13:03,760 --> 02:13:07,360
Speaker 1: I'm friends with the historian Dan Flores, you know him.

2460
02:13:09,240 --> 02:13:12,200
Speaker 1: He's not a Loosing Clark guy. But he had a

2461
02:13:12,240 --> 02:13:17,520
Speaker 1: graduate student who did this work on UM. I believe

2462
02:13:17,560 --> 02:13:20,000
Speaker 1: it was graduate to do this work on the places

2463
02:13:20,040 --> 02:13:26,200
Speaker 1: where they encountered most wildlife, particularly like the big congregations

2464
02:13:26,320 --> 02:13:34,920
Speaker 1: of of Buffalo, were contested areas like inter like contested

2465
02:13:34,960 --> 02:13:37,560
Speaker 1: by various tribes and where these sort of like no

2466
02:13:37,680 --> 02:13:41,200
Speaker 1: man's lands. Um. And he was kind of like overlying

2467
02:13:41,360 --> 02:13:44,400
Speaker 1: territories with places where they'd be like, Holy ship, there's

2468
02:13:44,400 --> 02:13:46,240
Speaker 1: a lot of buffalo around here. It would turn out

2469
02:13:46,280 --> 02:13:49,560
Speaker 1: that those weren't places where large groups of people would

2470
02:13:49,600 --> 02:13:53,400
Speaker 1: be safe and comfortable to camp and hunt. And there

2471
02:13:53,480 --> 02:13:56,960
Speaker 1: was like sort of like back country, you know, sort

2472
02:13:56,960 --> 02:13:59,600
Speaker 1: of like like the equivalent of like back country spots.

2473
02:13:59,680 --> 02:14:02,879
Speaker 1: The people were getting to them right in because of warfare.

2474
02:14:02,960 --> 02:14:05,560
Speaker 1: You've learned that idea. Well, you know, for the Cheyenne

2475
02:14:05,600 --> 02:14:08,640
Speaker 1: and the Lakota, they they had their rivalry, you know,

2476
02:14:08,640 --> 02:14:10,880
Speaker 1: and so and both of them had very similar lifestyles

2477
02:14:10,960 --> 02:14:13,360
Speaker 1: in terms of their culture. A lot of it depending

2478
02:14:13,400 --> 02:14:16,600
Speaker 1: on on the bis and certainly, but uh, both of

2479
02:14:16,600 --> 02:14:19,120
Speaker 1: them also traded with the Erica. Now is one of

2480
02:14:19,160 --> 02:14:21,840
Speaker 1: those things where the Arika and the Lakota, I mean,

2481
02:14:21,880 --> 02:14:24,120
Speaker 1: I get along very well most of the year, but

2482
02:14:24,240 --> 02:14:26,520
Speaker 1: then certain times the year they would trade and the

2483
02:14:26,920 --> 02:14:30,360
Speaker 1: Lakota would bring in buffalo meat and uh the Ricara

2484
02:14:30,480 --> 02:14:33,160
Speaker 1: would have corn and beans and squash and they would

2485
02:14:33,160 --> 02:14:36,240
Speaker 1: do that trade. Cheyenne and the Rica, they were much

2486
02:14:36,360 --> 02:14:40,280
Speaker 1: more friendly towards one another. But there's that animasi exists

2487
02:14:40,320 --> 02:14:43,360
Speaker 1: between the the Cheyenne and the Lakota as far as territory,

2488
02:14:43,760 --> 02:14:45,640
Speaker 1: so that might be something along with what you're looking

2489
02:14:45,680 --> 02:14:48,760
Speaker 1: as far as the Cheyenne area and then the Lakota area.

2490
02:14:49,320 --> 02:14:52,000
Speaker 1: How much of it overlapped, How much did it affect

2491
02:14:52,200 --> 02:14:55,320
Speaker 1: the numbers that were out there in terms of elk

2492
02:14:55,440 --> 02:14:58,960
Speaker 1: and bison. You know, it's always kind of amazing when

2493
02:14:59,000 --> 02:15:01,800
Speaker 1: when people start thinking of of South Dakota and they

2494
02:15:01,800 --> 02:15:04,040
Speaker 1: started talking about in places like Elk Point where they

2495
02:15:04,200 --> 02:15:07,800
Speaker 1: recorded seeing hundreds and hundreds of elk, because you think

2496
02:15:07,840 --> 02:15:10,200
Speaker 1: of that maybe in the Black Hills, but not down

2497
02:15:10,240 --> 02:15:12,720
Speaker 1: the southeastern part of South Dakota, where when you start

2498
02:15:12,800 --> 02:15:15,520
Speaker 1: thinking of the massive herds of bison, and at one

2499
02:15:15,560 --> 02:15:17,960
Speaker 1: point Louis said something to the fact that from his

2500
02:15:18,080 --> 02:15:20,600
Speaker 1: vantage point you could see maybe three thousand head of

2501
02:15:20,680 --> 02:15:24,280
Speaker 1: bison or points where they'd be crossing over the river

2502
02:15:24,480 --> 02:15:26,440
Speaker 1: and they just have to wait because there's so many

2503
02:15:26,480 --> 02:15:28,400
Speaker 1: of them, and they couldn't do anything about it until

2504
02:15:28,440 --> 02:15:31,520
Speaker 1: they were all done. Those things are are always interesting

2505
02:15:31,560 --> 02:15:33,480
Speaker 1: because people don't see that, you know. Now they see

2506
02:15:33,520 --> 02:15:36,200
Speaker 1: flat farm land and and and uh more of the

2507
02:15:36,600 --> 02:15:40,840
Speaker 1: lakes along the Missouri River. Um. But it's changed so much.

2508
02:15:40,880 --> 02:15:44,880
Speaker 1: I heard a biologist speak several years ago and the

2509
02:15:45,000 --> 02:15:48,760
Speaker 1: question of grizzly bears in South Dakota, how could that

2510
02:15:48,800 --> 02:15:51,960
Speaker 1: possibly Well, there's a well known photo of Lieutenant Colonel

2511
02:15:52,040 --> 02:15:56,080
Speaker 1: George Arnold back in the seventy four and then of

2512
02:15:56,120 --> 02:15:58,240
Speaker 1: course you have the story a few glass being attacked

2513
02:15:58,280 --> 02:16:01,760
Speaker 1: in eight uh and surviving that grizzly bear attack. But

2514
02:16:01,840 --> 02:16:04,680
Speaker 1: the thing is that's so different is that back then, Yeah,

2515
02:16:04,760 --> 02:16:06,160
Speaker 1: there were a lot of grizzlies that were out on

2516
02:16:06,200 --> 02:16:08,320
Speaker 1: the plains because that's where the food was. That's where

2517
02:16:08,600 --> 02:16:11,280
Speaker 1: you had thousands and thousands of bis, and that's where

2518
02:16:11,320 --> 02:16:13,720
Speaker 1: you had the elk. And it's only when those started

2519
02:16:13,800 --> 02:16:17,360
Speaker 1: getting killed off that you start seeing a change as

2520
02:16:17,400 --> 02:16:19,440
Speaker 1: far as thinking of grizzlies, you think of more of

2521
02:16:19,480 --> 02:16:22,480
Speaker 1: the more of the mountainous areas. Perhaps, So there's been

2522
02:16:22,480 --> 02:16:24,040
Speaker 1: a lot of changes that have taken place over a

2523
02:16:24,080 --> 02:16:26,120
Speaker 1: period time that affected a lot of different groups. And

2524
02:16:26,560 --> 02:16:29,240
Speaker 1: I said, for Lewis and Clark, there's no way they

2525
02:16:29,280 --> 02:16:31,040
Speaker 1: would have survived. I don't think that they would have

2526
02:16:31,080 --> 02:16:33,640
Speaker 1: survived without the assistance of the of the native populations.

2527
02:16:34,160 --> 02:16:36,920
Speaker 1: But at the same time, it really marks the beginning

2528
02:16:36,959 --> 02:16:39,880
Speaker 1: of the end for native cultures. Things will never ever

2529
02:16:40,000 --> 02:16:46,760
Speaker 1: be the same after Lewis and Clark. Yeah, well it's

2530
02:16:46,800 --> 02:16:49,800
Speaker 1: for coming on man. Thank you for having me satisfied, Spencer,

2531
02:16:50,480 --> 02:16:52,680
Speaker 1: very satisfied. And and I want to thank Brad and

2532
02:16:52,800 --> 02:16:54,680
Speaker 1: thank you other guys in the room because that was

2533
02:16:54,680 --> 02:16:56,800
Speaker 1: a real ball hog this podcast because I wanted to

2534
02:16:56,800 --> 02:16:59,600
Speaker 1: bug him about all the questions I've had. I'm turning

2535
02:16:59,600 --> 02:17:02,080
Speaker 1: it up. We got her, We got her done. Tommy,

2536
02:17:02,080 --> 02:17:05,760
Speaker 1: you feel prime for the trivia showdown. I didn't call

2537
02:17:05,800 --> 02:17:07,960
Speaker 1: him to take part. I came to take over. There

2538
02:17:08,080 --> 02:17:13,040
Speaker 1: you going, you might need to make up a little

2539
02:17:13,120 --> 02:17:18,480
Speaker 1: Tommy token. Maybe he's two wins. And then we'll first

2540
02:17:19,440 --> 02:17:21,680
Speaker 1: all right, Brad, thanks man, you can stick around of

2541
02:17:21,680 --> 02:17:24,200
Speaker 1: the trivia. I mean, I think you might be a

2542
02:17:24,280 --> 02:17:27,560
Speaker 1: formidable player, because here's the other. You and Spencer got

2543
02:17:27,600 --> 02:17:32,800
Speaker 1: the whole South Dakota thing going. And then Spencer throws

2544
02:17:32,840 --> 02:17:34,360
Speaker 1: a bone to Gas. I don't know if he's gonna

2545
02:17:34,360 --> 02:17:36,520
Speaker 1: throw a bone to Tommy. Well, I bet he's gonna

2546
02:17:36,560 --> 02:17:38,320
Speaker 1: throw a bone to you. I'll tell you, but I'll

2547
02:17:38,320 --> 02:17:40,960
Speaker 1: tell you narthing to keep track of their day. Spencer

2548
02:17:41,760 --> 02:17:44,960
Speaker 1: was golfing with which is like the stupidest thing the

2549
02:17:44,959 --> 02:17:48,800
Speaker 1: world too. I got two problems with it. We're golfing

2550
02:17:48,879 --> 02:17:51,880
Speaker 1: on passes that you gave us. Oh that you still

2551
02:17:51,879 --> 02:17:54,920
Speaker 1: have those? Not anymore. Don't tell why I got him

2552
02:17:54,920 --> 02:17:56,720
Speaker 1: in a secret now listen, because I don't want to

2553
02:17:56,760 --> 02:18:00,720
Speaker 1: give away my situation where that's coming. So, but let

2554
02:18:00,760 --> 02:18:02,040
Speaker 1: me tell you the problem I have. I have a

2555
02:18:02,080 --> 02:18:05,680
Speaker 1: problem where I feel like you guys are sharing information.

2556
02:18:05,760 --> 02:18:08,240
Speaker 1: We're in coots, and it makes it that if Yanni

2557
02:18:08,320 --> 02:18:09,920
Speaker 1: beats me, then I have to have the shame of

2558
02:18:10,000 --> 02:18:13,480
Speaker 1: being beat by golfer, which is which is you'll never

2559
02:18:13,640 --> 02:18:15,959
Speaker 1: live it down. You'll never live it. Do you guys

2560
02:18:16,040 --> 02:18:18,720
Speaker 1: run through a bunch of beers drinking Golfield or playing Golfield.

2561
02:18:19,120 --> 02:18:22,360
Speaker 1: Not Yanni, did you guys? Corey and I were on

2562
02:18:22,480 --> 02:18:25,800
Speaker 1: team Correy and I were on Team straight Edge, and

2563
02:18:26,280 --> 02:18:29,600
Speaker 1: Spencer and Ghen were on Team Tallboy and I guess

2564
02:18:29,640 --> 02:18:34,720
Speaker 1: who won Straight Edge? Really clear and focused. Yeah, but

2565
02:18:34,800 --> 02:18:36,959
Speaker 1: we had way more beers in Nicotine than you guys,

2566
02:18:37,040 --> 02:18:39,959
Speaker 1: so we win. Stay tun of Tribune