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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girls podcasts, a

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Speaker 1: weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the

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Speaker 1: small decisions we can make to become the best possible

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Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information,

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Speaker 1: visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com.

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Speaker 1: And while I hope you love listening to and learning

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Speaker 1: from the podcast, it is not meant to be a

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Speaker 1: substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me for session sixty seven

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Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Today we have

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Speaker 1: a special treat for all of the fans of the

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Speaker 1: star show Power. Today we're on the couch with Tasha

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Speaker 1: and Jane are ghosts St. Patrick For this conversation, I

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Speaker 1: was joined by Dr Qvandra Perry. Dr Perry is a

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Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in the state of Texas. She is currently

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Speaker 1: a staff psychologist and assistant professor at two area hospitals

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Speaker 1: and supervises medical and psychology trainees across developmental levels. Dr

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Speaker 1: Perry is also owner of a private practice that targets

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Speaker 1: individual and couples whose career or public lifestyles may offer

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Speaker 1: limited safe avenues of emotional relief. Her specialties include depression,

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Speaker 1: couple and family distress, spirituality and mental health, and clinical

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Speaker 1: supervision consultation. Dr Perry and I discussed what kinds of

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Speaker 1: concerns might bring Tasha and James sid therapy, how she

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Speaker 1: might help them improve their communication, how she might help

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Speaker 1: them work through their grief, and of course, she shared

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Speaker 1: all of her favorite resources for couples. This episode does

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Speaker 1: contain spoilers, so if you're not caught up with the

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Speaker 1: new season, then you may want to hold off on listening.

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Speaker 1: If you hear something while you're listening that you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, be sure to share it with us on

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Speaker 1: social media using the hashtag tb G in Session. Here's

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Speaker 1: our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Comandra,

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Speaker 1: thank you for having me. I'm excited. I am excited too.

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Speaker 1: So we are going to be talking about the st

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Speaker 1: Patrick's from one of everybody's favorite show, well people who

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Speaker 1: love it right, um Power, which is a show on Stars. Um.

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Speaker 1: So we are going to be talking about both Tasha

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Speaker 1: and James st. Patrick because Covandra practices couples therapy, and

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Speaker 1: so we're gonna be talking about if Pasha and James

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Speaker 1: came to her as a client, some of the things

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Speaker 1: that she might do with them or talk with them about. Definitely. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So for anybody who may not be a fan of power,

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Speaker 1: who needs maybe a little bit of background on the couple,

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Speaker 1: can you give a little synopsis of like some of

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Speaker 1: the things that have happened with them as a couple. Sure, so, Um,

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Speaker 1: for those who may not know what's going on with

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Speaker 1: this couple, Tasha and James st. Patrick are very high

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Speaker 1: powered couple. They live a really lavish lifestyle. UM. But

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Speaker 1: part of the problem in the relationship is that James

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Speaker 1: is also known as Ghosts and so that's his street name.

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Speaker 1: He's a very wealthy drug dealer and so over the

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Speaker 1: course of their marriage, he's made efforts to try to

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Speaker 1: get out of the drug game. But that has caused

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Speaker 1: some problems both um in their relationship and for them individually.

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Speaker 1: And some of the issues that they have are you know,

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Speaker 1: just some of the affairs that have gone on. So

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Speaker 1: they have both cheated on one another, they have both

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Speaker 1: um lost their daughter most recently, and have also had

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Speaker 1: some other traumas than their relationship and individually, so this

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Speaker 1: couple has definitely had a lot going on over the years.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned, uh, well, first let me ask what

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Speaker 1: do you think because there has been so much going

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Speaker 1: on with Tasha and goes right, Um, what do you

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Speaker 1: think would be the thing that would actually bring a

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Speaker 1: couple like Jeans and Tasha to therapy? You know, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I have been excited to see

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Speaker 1: this season is Tasha's um seems like there's something going

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Speaker 1: on with her where she's wanting to try to understand

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Speaker 1: what's going on with herself. And so they decided to

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Speaker 1: go to like a group couples therapy, grief group. And

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Speaker 1: so maybe Tasha might be the person to say, you

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Speaker 1: know what, James, we're having some issues, why don't we

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Speaker 1: try a couple of therapy since you haven't been that

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Speaker 1: open to going to the grief therapy with other couples, right,

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Speaker 1: because he did go to that first meeting, but he

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Speaker 1: didn't make it back to the second one exactly exactly,

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Speaker 1: And so they wouldn't be unlike any other couple because

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Speaker 1: the research actually shows that couples soul for for a

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Speaker 1: long time before they actually make it into couples therapy,

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Speaker 1: right right, So yeah, they would be struggling, like you said,

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Speaker 1: for some time, maybe before they even came in for

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Speaker 1: for accouncil plan. Definitely. Yeah. So you also mentioned UM,

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Speaker 1: which I think is a really great point to to

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Speaker 1: discuss that there has been some tension in the relationship

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Speaker 1: because James, you know, started the nightclub UM and it

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Speaker 1: seems like it originally started as like a way to

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Speaker 1: kind of wash the money, so to speak, so like

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Speaker 1: a front for the drug business, but then he got

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Speaker 1: really into it UM, and so there has been some

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Speaker 1: tension of Okay, like is he moving into wanting to

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Speaker 1: do more of this kind of corporate life and like

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Speaker 1: have businesses and these kinds of things, versus really paying

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Speaker 1: attention to the drugs, which it seems like it's what

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Speaker 1: Tasha really wants. Yes, Yes, And I think that's been

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Speaker 1: the hugest thing that has come between them because one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I've noticed is that that is

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Speaker 1: the direction that James seems to want want to go,

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Speaker 1: but Tasha, for some reason, is not so sure that

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Speaker 1: his new lifestyle, his new career path is going to

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Speaker 1: probably give them the same sense of security that they have,

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Speaker 1: and so I think some of the conversations that they

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Speaker 1: have with the arguments, what's missing is let's talk about

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Speaker 1: some of the emotions behind maybe why I want to

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Speaker 1: do this. You know, I would talk to them both

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Speaker 1: about what do you what do you like about him

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Speaker 1: being in the drug game? What do you not like

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Speaker 1: about it? And so I would try to highlight some

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Speaker 1: of their shared emotions that they don't even get a

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Speaker 1: chance to talk about. So maybe we both really like

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Speaker 1: this one part of it, but we both have some

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Speaker 1: real concerns and fears and rightfully so mm hmmm. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I would also wonder, I think, for her, if

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Speaker 1: there's a piece of kind of being left behind. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's probably a very valid concern given

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Speaker 1: what we have seen unfold um and and some of

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Speaker 1: the seasons. Right, but I think there may be also

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Speaker 1: a fear of her thinking like, Okay, I fit into

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Speaker 1: his life in this way, but if he's moving in

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Speaker 1: this direction, then do I fit or do I still

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Speaker 1: have a place there? Yes? And I think that's key

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Speaker 1: because what we see a lot of is Tasha doing

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Speaker 1: exactly that which is fitting into his life. But I

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Speaker 1: don't see a whole lot of James pouring back into

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Speaker 1: her or encouraging her to find out, you know, what

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Speaker 1: are the things that you like and how can I

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Speaker 1: support your goals and dreams? So that would be something

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Speaker 1: that I would work with them on, is how can

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Speaker 1: we both support one another in the development of our

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Speaker 1: relationship goals as well as our individual goals. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: something that you mentioned before is that there have been

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Speaker 1: multiple affairs. Um. I think only one for correct but

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Speaker 1: multiple for James. UM. And so you know, at this point,

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Speaker 1: I don't even really know what's happening in the relationship.

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Speaker 1: And this may be like a parallel process kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: right because they probably don't either, I really know what's happening.

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Speaker 1: So so talk more about, you know, like what you

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Speaker 1: have seen going on with like the multiple kind of

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Speaker 1: indiscretions in the relationship. Um. When I think back to

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Speaker 1: when the show very first started and James started, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, seeing Angela, it seems like when Tasha had

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Speaker 1: that little small short fling that she had with Sean,

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Speaker 1: it seems like that was more out of revenge. I'm confused.

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Speaker 1: I'm not really sure what's going on. I need some attention,

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Speaker 1: but that didn't really seem to last very long, and

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Speaker 1: then most recently when she was I can't remember his

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Speaker 1: name right off, but when she was having that affair

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Speaker 1: with the attorney, it seems like that was a more intentional,

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Speaker 1: thought out type of relationship. But for both of them,

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Speaker 1: it seems like because their relationship is lacking some depth

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Speaker 1: and some honesty, they are seeking that elsewhere. And so

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Speaker 1: some of the conversations that I've had with people that

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Speaker 1: I know the controversy has been, well, you shouldn't like

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Speaker 1: his relationship with Angela, But when I ask people, what

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Speaker 1: is it that you like about his relationship with Angela,

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Speaker 1: what they really like is their authenticity with one another,

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Speaker 1: how they can talk about just about anything, and they

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Speaker 1: support one another things more genuine with Angela than than

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Speaker 1: with Tasha. And so what I would do then, when

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Speaker 1: we have, you know, whether it's one person who cheated

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Speaker 1: or two people, what I would start with them on

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Speaker 1: is putting some boundaries around the marriage. But that's with

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Speaker 1: the understanding that I've established the fact that they both

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Speaker 1: want to remain in this relationship. And so if I

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Speaker 1: have that understanding that they do want to stay in

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Speaker 1: the relationship, let us try to figure out what kind

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Speaker 1: of context um are we going to have with this person? So,

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Speaker 1: for example, do we need to limit our conversation with

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Speaker 1: this person but we need to block social media? Do

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Speaker 1: we need to delete phone numbers? Things like that? And

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Speaker 1: then also who are we going to talk about um

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Speaker 1: and talk to while we're working through these tough issues,

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Speaker 1: because not everybody on the outside is going to support

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Speaker 1: us staying together and so that can also be detrimental

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Speaker 1: to us trying to work through an affair. Can you

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Speaker 1: say more about that, munder because I think that that's

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Speaker 1: an interesting point that is oftentimes overlooked. Sure, the part

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Speaker 1: about putting boundaries around who are we going to talk to? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So for example, you know a lot of times I

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Speaker 1: found in my work it's really hard for a couple

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Speaker 1: to work through an affair. Is one person who probably

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Speaker 1: helped you to lie, help you to cheat, and things

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Speaker 1: like that. You know, if you're continuing to have the

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Speaker 1: same type of relationship with that one person is gonna

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Speaker 1: not really add to building trust in your marriage or

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Speaker 1: your relationship. And so I think it's really really important

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Speaker 1: to figure out, you know, am I going to have

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Speaker 1: to start limiting the information that I would normally tell

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Speaker 1: maybe a loved one or a best friend or something

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Speaker 1: like that in support of rebuilding my marriage and my relationship. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so that's a good point, and I think in this situation, right,

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Speaker 1: a lot of that would be Tommy. Um, but of

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Speaker 1: course he is like so close. I think to both

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Speaker 1: of them that I think that that would cause, you know,

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Speaker 1: like lots of tension if if they were saying, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: now we can't be friends with Tommy, yes, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's I think that would be a very hard call.

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Speaker 1: But I think their relationship with Tommy is such that

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Speaker 1: they could both sit down and tell him, Hey, we're gonna,

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Speaker 1: you know, we want to try to work things out,

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Speaker 1: and so here are some of the things that we're

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Speaker 1: going to try to do differently. Now. Whether Tommy respects that,

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Speaker 1: that's you know, that's another thing. But I think he

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Speaker 1: would be open to at least hearing about it. And

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Speaker 1: you also mentioned, um, you know that you would be

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Speaker 1: doing all of this work with the understanding that they

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Speaker 1: both have decided that they want to continue in the marriage.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, at this point, like I said,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure really what's happening with their marriage. So

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Speaker 1: I think Ghost had ended the relationship with Angela or

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Speaker 1: she ended it with him after like he went to

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Speaker 1: jail and stuff. Right like that kind of got wrapped up.

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Speaker 1: But it seems like the relationship with the lawyer only

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Speaker 1: ended after her daughter died, right like after Raina was killed. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's when she ended that relationship. So we really haven't

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Speaker 1: seen them check in about where the relationship actually stands

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Speaker 1: right now exactly. And so I think that is one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I noticed the most about their

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Speaker 1: relationship is that because they have been together so long,

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Speaker 1: they've been through so much together, I think they fall

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Speaker 1: in this um with this idea that a lot of

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Speaker 1: us make. This assumption actually that a lot of us

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Speaker 1: make is that just because you know someone, you think

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Speaker 1: you know everything about them, and so we shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: to have very intentional conversations. But James and Tasha definitely

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Speaker 1: do a lot of mind reading and they just go

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Speaker 1: with the flow, and they don't really have a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of uh meaningful and purposeful conversations. They argue a lot.

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Speaker 1: They argue a lot, So can you say more about

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Speaker 1: the mind reading, like what that is and what that

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Speaker 1: might look like in ghosts and times relationships and then

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Speaker 1: in other people's relationships. Sure, so with mind reading, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's the idea that you know, I should not have

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Speaker 1: to tell ghosts that I'm sad and that I'm hurt

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Speaker 1: because we just lost our daughter. He should automatically know that,

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Speaker 1: or for ghosts on his you know, on his side,

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Speaker 1: he may think something like I shouldn't have to ask

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Speaker 1: my wife for support or tell her that I feel

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Speaker 1: really disrespected when she doesn't seem to want to hear

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Speaker 1: my advice or my opinion about something that's going on

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Speaker 1: in our relationship. And so what happens then is the

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Speaker 1: backstory that we're telling ourselves UM actually helps to feed

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Speaker 1: our behavior. So, for example, fault, if Tasha is saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, um, James isn't doesn't want to pay any

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Speaker 1: attention to me, he's being selfish, he's not thinking about

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Speaker 1: me or the kids, he doesn't love me. Instead of

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Speaker 1: talking to him about that, then I will just go

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Speaker 1: and find the love and security in another relationship, which

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Speaker 1: is what we've seen her do. And same thing for James.

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Speaker 1: We've seen him feel really let down when Tasha doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to be that supportive of him opening up nightclubs,

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Speaker 1: and so then he finds that support and encouragement in Angela.

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Speaker 1: And so we all experienced that in our relationships, where

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Speaker 1: we make those same assumptions. But what we should be

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Speaker 1: doing is saying, I think this is what you might want.

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Speaker 1: Am I correct on that? And here's how I can

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Speaker 1: Here's how I might be able to help you with it.

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Speaker 1: So what are some ways because it does seem like

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Speaker 1: you and you've mentioned this a couple of times, that

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Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like Tasha and James really talk with

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Speaker 1: one another, Like they kind of address whatever is going on,

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Speaker 1: but there aren't really real conversation so to speak, that

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Speaker 1: we actually see on screen. Um, So, for for a

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Speaker 1: couple who seems to have lost their way with communication

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Speaker 1: so greatly and like just are not really talking with

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Speaker 1: one another, how would you help them even get back

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Speaker 1: on the same page in terms of communication. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: an excellent question. So one of the things I would

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Speaker 1: do is first point out to them that their conversations

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Speaker 1: seemed to be lacking validation. And I think one of

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Speaker 1: the misconceptions about validation is that people think validation means

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Speaker 1: for Freeman and so I would really educate them that

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Speaker 1: your job in a conversation would be just to listen

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Speaker 1: and understand before you respond, because right now what we

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Speaker 1: see them do is justify and defend and yale and blame.

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Speaker 1: So I would leave their conversations by modeling for them

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Speaker 1: how to validate one another and how to um draw

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Speaker 1: there but relationship closer by having empathy for one another.

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Speaker 1: And so by that I mean I would point out

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Speaker 1: a lot of the emotions, and I would highlight that

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Speaker 1: they both share some of the same emotions. I would

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Speaker 1: encourage them to um do things to build up their

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Speaker 1: emotional bank account, because right now James and Tasha are

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Speaker 1: very very good at putting on public appearances. You know,

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Speaker 1: they look amazing together, but they don't really spend any

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Speaker 1: quality time together. And so I might take them back

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Speaker 1: to the drawing board. Joy I would say something like, so,

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Speaker 1: when you first met each other, what was that you

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Speaker 1: liked about James? What was it that you liked about Tasha?

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Speaker 1: And then help them to build on those things by

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Speaker 1: just starting from the bottom, asking questions, even things that

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Speaker 1: you think you might already know, So, who are my

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Speaker 1: two best friends? Kind of more superficial level things you know,

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Speaker 1: they call it the love map, but that think things

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Speaker 1: about what's my favorite movie, what's my favorite color? On

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Speaker 1: down to the more serious questions, what are your personal goals?

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Speaker 1: What are two things that you fear the most? What

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Speaker 1: are your goals for our for our marriage? And so

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Speaker 1: those are the kinds of things that can help them

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Speaker 1: to rediscover one another and connect emotionally. So I want

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Speaker 1: to hear more about this love map. Where where does

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Speaker 1: this come from? How does this work? Yeah? So love

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Speaker 1: map comes from a famous researcher, Dr John Gottman and

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Speaker 1: his wife, And so it's based on the idea that

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Speaker 1: when we get in relationships, it's really important that we

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Speaker 1: have a solid foundation. So they use it with this

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Speaker 1: idea based on the house. So the the best house

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Speaker 1: is going to be based on a good foundation. And

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Speaker 1: so part of that love map is if I know

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Speaker 1: my partners fears, desires, goals, things like that. When we

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Speaker 1: have those unexpected turns in our lives along this journey,

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Speaker 1: so for example, a depth of a child, of miscarriage,

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Speaker 1: death of a parent, loss of the job, we can

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Speaker 1: handle those things by going back to the drawing board. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so I know that my husband's ultimate goal is to

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Speaker 1: be an entrepreneur. I know that my wife values family time,

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Speaker 1: so knowing the answers to those questions and the love

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Speaker 1: map is really going to be our roadmap for the relationship.

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Speaker 1: So is this like an actual exercise that you do

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Speaker 1: with clients. Yes, so it can be done both in session,

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Speaker 1: but most of the time it is assigned outside of session.

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Speaker 1: So Dr John Godman actually has cards but sometimes UM.

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Speaker 1: For me as a clinician, I give the give the

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Speaker 1: clients the questions, and I tell them you don't have

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Speaker 1: to ask every question because the goal is for it

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Speaker 1: to be something fun and meaningful. It's not for us

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Speaker 1: to get into an argument because you thought my favorite

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Speaker 1: code it's red and it's blue. So it can be

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Speaker 1: done in a lot of different way whatever is most

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Speaker 1: meaningful to the couple. Okay, nice, Nice, So I'm glad

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Speaker 1: you brought up the idea, UM, and we have talked

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Speaker 1: a little bit about like the death of their daughter,

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Speaker 1: which is you know, something we saw at the end

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Speaker 1: of last season. The new season kind of started with that, UM.

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Speaker 1: But I do think the loss of a child is

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Speaker 1: clearly a very traumatic experience for lots of couples. UM.

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Speaker 1: And so can you talk about, you know, what some

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Speaker 1: of that work might look like if you had clients

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Speaker 1: who came in with that kind of a situation. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I think it would be the same as as I

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Speaker 1: would work with them um in an affair. So I

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Speaker 1: would want get them to shift some of their current

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Speaker 1: focus from the pain, and I, as a clinician, would

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Speaker 1: want to know tell me all about Raina. You know,

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Speaker 1: when was she born, any wonderful stories around how she

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Speaker 1: was born. Talk to me about you know, what she

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Speaker 1: liked but she didn't like? What are your fondest memories?

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Speaker 1: And things like that. So I wouldn't focus so much

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Speaker 1: initially UM on the traumatic event. I would try to

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Speaker 1: put some emotional distance between that and get the couple

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Speaker 1: to work together to let's reflect on some of those

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Speaker 1: wonderful things. And then once they're on the same page

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Speaker 1: with those kinds of things, then we can maybe move

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Speaker 1: into some of the grief work of what will you

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Speaker 1: what do you miss most about her? What kinds of

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Speaker 1: things do you want to do as a family to

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Speaker 1: honor her memory. So they're already starting to do some

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Speaker 1: of those things, or maybe James is but one thing

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Speaker 1: in particular, I would do is really encourage James to

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Speaker 1: be more vulnerable, because it sounds like Tasha is there

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Speaker 1: and she's ready to talk about those things. And I

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Speaker 1: think sometimes in the Black community it's a struggle for

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Speaker 1: men to be vulnerable. And I think part of that

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Speaker 1: is because of the messages that society sends out is

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Speaker 1: that you need to be strong, you need to keep

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Speaker 1: it together, and they carry that into the relationship. And

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Speaker 1: so I think it would be important for um Tasha

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Speaker 1: in this situation too, let him know, you know, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm still gonna respect you tomorrow morning. If you cry

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Speaker 1: on my shoulder tonight, you can you can be both

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Speaker 1: strong and vulnerable at the same time. So you mentioned condo,

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Speaker 1: this whole idea of like putting some emotional distance there

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Speaker 1: so you might not start with addressing the grief. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell me what that's about, Like why why you

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Speaker 1: would want to do that? Yes, I think that would

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Speaker 1: be based on what I have observed in the couple,

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Speaker 1: and so, um, every couple is different. So for example,

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Speaker 1: if the couple tells me that like in this case

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Speaker 1: with Tasha and Goes, they are arguing a lot about

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Speaker 1: the situation, or there are a lot arguing a lot

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Speaker 1: more since the death of their daughter than I might

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Speaker 1: want to put some emotional distance in there. But if

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Speaker 1: this couple comes in, they're both grieving, they're both wanting

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Speaker 1: to talk about it, then you can just jump right in. Okay,

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Speaker 1: god it. So that would be just a decision you

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Speaker 1: would make based on this couple. Yes, okay. So you

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Speaker 1: also mentioned that you feel like um ghost isn't necessarily

388
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Speaker 1: feeling very very vulnerable, but it does seem like he

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Speaker 1: has those moments, and in those moments he actually calls Angela,

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Speaker 1: which which feels like it's kind of connected to, you know,

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Speaker 1: your earlier UM discussion about you know, that they have

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Speaker 1: maybe a more authentic conversation or there's more space in

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Speaker 1: that relationship to kind of talk about all these different

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Speaker 1: things versus you know, just work or whatever. Absolutely, and

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I would do in that

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Speaker 1: case if I would ask Ghost um what keeps him

397
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Speaker 1: from reaching out to Tasha in those moments, and so

398
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Speaker 1: he might say, for example, well, I just think she

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to hear it, or I don't want to

400
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: bother her because she's got her own stuff going on,

401
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 1: which is some of the things that I would you

402
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: know I've heard before, so I will point out to

403
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Speaker 1: them again. So that's an example of how we mind

404
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: rate and we actually miss opportunities for closer connection. And

405
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Speaker 1: so I might ask him, so, when you did try

406
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: to reach out to Tasha before, maybe when you were

407
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: feeling vulnerable or really sad and lonely, how did she respond?

408
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: And I would help the couple to kind of work

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Speaker 1: through that and see what was what message did he

410
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Speaker 1: take from her response that shut him down completely? And

411
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Speaker 1: I do think now, of course, this is all fiction, right,

412
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: so there are complications that make us tied in because

413
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Speaker 1: they wanted to keep watching the show. But I also

414
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Speaker 1: think it's interesting in some ways how now Tasha has

415
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Speaker 1: almost kind of developed this alliance with Angela. Um, you're

416
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: interesting to see how this all plays out. And I

417
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 1: don't know that that necessarily what happened in real life, UM,

418
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Speaker 1: but you know, it almost feels as if there is

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Speaker 1: this acceptance that, Okay, she's going to be a part

420
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: of our life, so let me like see how this

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00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: can be helpful to me kind of a thing exactly.

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Speaker 1: I was reflecting on that too not so long ago,

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Speaker 1: about how they both call Angela and and the funny

424
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 1: thing is that the other person doesn't know it, but

425
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: they have both develop their relationships with her for various reasons.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm. Yeah. So are there other things that you

427
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 1: have seen with this couple that you think would be

428
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 1: important to kind of talk about that you know, you

429
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 1: see with other couples that come into your practice. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I would really uh, once setting some boundaries around the relationship,

431
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Speaker 1: if they're wanting to stay together, I would really want

432
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Speaker 1: to explore the context of their affairs, um and by that,

433
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: I mean let's look at what was going on with

434
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: each person individually at the time the affair happened, as

435
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: well as what are some relationship factors. So, so individual

436
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: factors could be things like, you know, well I was

437
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: at a time where I was working a lot, um,

438
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: I had a crazy school schedule, I was feeling depressed

439
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 1: or anxious. So those are just some things that can

440
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: um contribute, not necessarily cause an affair, but those are

441
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: some things to look at and discuss the therapy. And

442
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: also looking at relationship factors. So if I look at

443
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 1: the relationship at the time that you know, one person

444
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 1: stepped out or both of us stepped out, what was

445
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: going on in our relationships, So we were not being intimate,

446
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: we were not spending that much quality time. We have

447
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: a lot more arguments, And the purpose of having those

448
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: discussions is so that once the couple has hopefully moved

449
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 1: past the affair, what it does is it gives them

450
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: information about some triggers if that if those things come

451
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: up in the future. So, for example, say there are

452
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: six months to a year out, somebody's work schedule changes. Um,

453
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: we're arguing a lot more than both of us can say, Hey,

454
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: we probably need to sit down and regroup, so that

455
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: way we don't set up the perfect the perfect storm

456
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: to to have someone step out in our marriage again,

457
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: our relationship again. And it does seem like it's important

458
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: to kind of talk about UM. Well, even though we

459
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: don't necessarily know that they've made the decision to stay

460
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: in the relationship, their behaviors look as if they are

461
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 1: going to be continuing in the relationships, and so I

462
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: think it is important to maybe talk about UM for

463
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: other couples who have decided to stay together after there

464
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: has been infidelity, Like what that healing really looks like? Yes,

465
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: it is a very painful, um painful process. I know

466
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: that a lot of couples think that they cannot move

467
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: um past an affair, but it definitely can't happen if

468
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: it does take work, It does take commitment, and it

469
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: actually takes a lot of uh initial bending or flexibility

470
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: on the part of the person who has cheated. So,

471
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: for example, I think one thing that people struggle with

472
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: is in the initial part of moving past an affair,

473
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: I might have to give you more information than I

474
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: normally would otherwise. So for example, instead of me coming

475
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: straight home, I might have to call you and say, hey,

476
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to stop by the store because I know

477
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,479
Speaker 1: that in the past I would just do whatever instead

478
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: of coming straight home. And so it's not expected that

479
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: that type of behavior or checking in is continued for

480
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: the duration of the relationship UM so much. But I

481
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: might have to do that. I might have to be

482
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 1: willing to let you check my records or things like that.

483
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: So it has to be something that is reasonable to

484
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: both partners. But the person who has UM who has

485
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: cheated has to be willing to bend UM quite a

486
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: bit initially to start to rebuild that trust. But it's definitely,

487
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: in my experience, one of the hardest things for a

488
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: couple to get past UM in therapy doable, but definitely hard.

489
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: And what about for someone who makes the decision not

490
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: to stay. You know, that's a good question. I'm glad

491
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: you asked, because couples therapy is not you know, the

492
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 1: goal isn't to keep the couple together. It's to help

493
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: them have meaningful conversations UM that they can't have outside

494
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: of the session. And so sometimes that has actually happened

495
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: where the person says, you know, me understanding what was

496
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 1: going on with you, with me, with the relationship UM

497
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: through this process. I just really don't think that this

498
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: is that this is for me, And sometimes I think,

499
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: you know, joy, I think it really comes down to

500
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: this idea of forgiveness versus reconciliation, because I think sometimes

501
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: the person is so afraid of letting go UH that

502
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: they struggle to see what great work the person is

503
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: doing now, what great efforts the person is doing now.

504
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: And so sometimes when I have asked, you know, what's

505
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: going on now that's triggering you? And I think you

506
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: have to learn to be able to do that. Am

507
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 1: I reacting to triggers from things that happened in the past,

508
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: or are there things that's going on right now that's

509
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: triggering me. And so what I try to teach my

510
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: couples is the difference between for giveness and reconciliation. So forgiveness,

511
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: that's a personal choice. So I have to decide what

512
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: will it take for me to be able to forgive you,

513
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: and reconciliation takes two. So that's both of us. And

514
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: I do think that that is a really important distinction,

515
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: right because I could forgive you but still decide that

516
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to continue in the relationship, absolutely absolutely,

517
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: And there's no you know, there's no right or wrong

518
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: in that. That's a personal choice, but I think it, uh,

519
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: you know, the other partner has to be able to

520
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: respect that if that ends up being a decision. So

521
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: another thing that it feels like maybe important to talk about,

522
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: and maybe this is something that you work with clients

523
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: on as well. UM feels like it is around like

524
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: what's going on with their parenting, um, you know, because

525
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: it seems like the children are getting to well into

526
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: a lot of things that black parents just don't know.

527
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: And of course, you know, kids do stuff and you

528
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: can't be with them all the time, right, But it

529
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: does feel like there has been a bit of a

530
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: breakdown in terms of the communication even in their parents thing.

531
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: Um so what might that look like for you know,

532
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: couples or for ghost in Tasha, UM like to help

533
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: them maybe get back on the same page in terms

534
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: of what's going on with the kids. Yes, one of

535
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,479
Speaker 1: the things that I talked to parents about is the

536
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: importance of having a solid uh relationship. So in this case,

537
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: because they are still together, working on improving the husband

538
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: and wife relationship typically tends to improve the mother and

539
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: father relationship because unfortunately, I think kids are often the

540
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: scapegoat of what the real issue is in a relationship,

541
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: and so it's sometimes it's easier for us to argue about,

542
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: you know, Terik is getting out of hand, when really

543
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: the real issue is I don't want to be here

544
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: in this relationship thing. You don't either, and so it

545
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: just it manifests, as you know, a lack of supervision.

546
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: It manifests as you know, uh, pitting one parent one

547
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: child against the other parents, which we don't We don't

548
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: thankfully see a lot of that in this in this case,

549
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: but it definitely can happen. And so what I would

550
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: work with them on is once the relationship is secure,

551
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: Let's figure out what are our goals for the kids,

552
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: what kinds of things that we value as parents, What

553
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: are those things that we really want to make sure

554
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: that we convey to our kids. And so I really

555
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: really appreciated this last episode where Tasha decided to be

556
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: very authentic with Terik and tell him, you know, I'm

557
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: sorry that we've lie and here is why. And it

558
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: seems like it worked pretty well. I mean, it's not

559
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: magic realized, is not magical, you know, where he suddenly

560
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: decides to become clean, but it definitely can have a

561
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: very meaningful and powerful impact, right, And I do I'm

562
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: glad you said that because I think, um, you know,

563
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about you know, the couples, like

564
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: if they were coming into therapy, um. But it also

565
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: seems like, clearly, especially right now, that like family therapy

566
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: could be really helpful for them given the law sabrena um.

567
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: And it does feel like that could be a very

568
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: high potential for like to re to become the scapegoat,

569
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: right because he you know, in some ways kind of

570
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: was the reason why Arena was in the position to

571
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: be shot. And you know, it feels like there has

572
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: been a lot of like spotlight on him, but not

573
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: so much attention paid to all of the situations that

574
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: we're going on that even allowed to to be involved

575
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: with Keenan and all of them in the first place. Yes,

576
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you mentioned that because something else that

577
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: I would find out for them, what is their support

578
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: system like, because we don't see any extended family for

579
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: the two of them. You know, sometimes we would see

580
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: Tasha's mom, but you know, and I look back on

581
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: those episodes, she wasn't as you know, encouraging Toatasha or supportive,

582
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: and then we see um Keisha. She's been very supportive

583
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: of Tasha in her own way. But I would try

584
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: to figure out what are some other, uh support systems

585
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,719
Speaker 1: that we can put in place to help them, you know,

586
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: in terms of their parenting. And so because of the

587
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: kind of lifestyle that they lived, one of the things

588
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: that you know, we can point out is, Okay, it

589
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: looks like one of the drawbacks is you don't have

590
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: a whole lot of support because you can't let a

591
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: whole lot of people in because of the kind of

592
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: lifestyle that you have. And so I would try to

593
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: help them to see that that's one of the major

594
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: disadvantages of that illegal lifestyle. Right, So, what are some

595
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: of your favorite resources for a couple of school founder,

596
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: What kinds of things that you find yourself recommending over

597
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: and over again? Yeah, I recommend any book UM or

598
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: activity by John Goffman so on his website John Goffman. UM.

599
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: There's also the kind of therapy that I do. One

600
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,479
Speaker 1: of the kinds of therapy. The therapist that I do

601
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: is UM Integrated Behavioral Couples Therapy. And so one of

602
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: the creators of that particular therapy UM has created a website.

603
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: You got a grant and so the relationship and sorry,

604
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: the website is called our Relationship dot com. It's a wonderful,

605
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: wonderful website and the couple can just log in or

606
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: they can join and they can start to do some

607
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: activities together. UM. So they have coaches on there, so

608
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: they don't you don't have to come into therapy. But

609
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: that's something that couples can do, you know, self pace

610
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 1: on their own time. And then in terms of another

611
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: book for couples, as I see a lot of couples

612
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: who are Christians, and other wonderful resources Love and Respect

613
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: by in with some Eggorage and um, that book offers

614
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: some very practical advice, but it comes from a spiritual background.

615
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: And where can people find you online? Provinder? Your website

616
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: as well as any social media handles you want to share. Sure,

617
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: so my website is dr q Perry dot com and

618
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: my Twitter and Instagram handles are the same, dr Q Perry.

619
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: Very nice. So you said that's Twitter and Instagram. Okay,

620
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: all right, Well, thank you so much for a chatting

621
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: with us today to break down and everything going on

622
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: with to Shane Goes. We'll have to keep watching the

623
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: season right to see how it unfolds to see if

624
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: any of your predictions kind of come true. Yes, we will,

625
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for having me. I've really

626
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: really enjoyed it absolutely, thank you. It was so great

627
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: to chat with Dr Perry. She definitely helped me to

628
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: think about some dynamics of the show differently. To check

629
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: out the books she mentioned and the information about her practice,

630
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

631
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash Session sixty seven. If you're

632
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit the directory

633
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory and

634
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 1: if you want to continue this conversation and join a

635
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: community of other sisters who listened to the podcast. Join

636
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: us over in the Thrive tribe at Therapy for Black

637
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: Girls dot com slash tribe. Make sure you answer the

638
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: three question is that our asked to gain entry. Thank

639
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: you all so much for joining me again this week,

640
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: and I look forward to continuing this conversation with you

641
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,959
Speaker 1: all real soon. Take get care