1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:30,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hayslite Changers. Today, we're sharing a podcast episode that 2 00:00:30,636 --> 00:00:33,596 Speaker 1: we think you'll love, just in time for Valentine's Day. 3 00:00:34,196 --> 00:00:36,476 Speaker 1: I'm not a huge fan of this holiday, but I 4 00:00:36,516 --> 00:00:39,436 Speaker 1: do like using it as an opportunity to explore the 5 00:00:39,516 --> 00:00:43,036 Speaker 1: stickier sides of love. For example, what do we do 6 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:46,676 Speaker 1: in a relationship we've understood to be one thing transforms 7 00:00:46,756 --> 00:00:49,396 Speaker 1: into something else? Or how do we get better at 8 00:00:49,436 --> 00:00:52,476 Speaker 1: distinguishing between what we think a relationship is supposed to 9 00:00:52,516 --> 00:00:55,036 Speaker 1: be from what we actually want out of it. Our 10 00:00:55,116 --> 00:00:57,316 Speaker 1: friends at the TED podcast How to Be a Better 11 00:00:57,396 --> 00:01:00,836 Speaker 1: Human think about this kind of stuff too. In the episode, 12 00:01:00,876 --> 00:01:04,356 Speaker 1: you're about to hear host and comedian Chris Stuffy and 13 00:01:04,476 --> 00:01:08,556 Speaker 1: family therapist Stephanie Yates Anya Buila sit down for a 14 00:01:08,636 --> 00:01:12,676 Speaker 1: conversation about questions like these. They explore ways to maintain 15 00:01:12,716 --> 00:01:16,596 Speaker 1: stability in our relationships as we navigate big changes, how 16 00:01:16,636 --> 00:01:20,076 Speaker 1: issuing ultimatums can backfire, and even what it looks like 17 00:01:20,156 --> 00:01:22,956 Speaker 1: to work out these kinds of issues with a couple therapist. 18 00:01:23,356 --> 00:01:24,356 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy it. 19 00:01:27,276 --> 00:01:29,676 Speaker 2: You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm 20 00:01:29,716 --> 00:01:33,316 Speaker 2: your host, Chris Daffy. When it comes to romantic relationships, 21 00:01:33,396 --> 00:01:35,796 Speaker 2: they often start with a lot of mystery. We're always 22 00:01:35,796 --> 00:01:38,916 Speaker 2: trying to figure out what does this person like, what's 23 00:01:38,956 --> 00:01:41,596 Speaker 2: their favorite food, what makes them laugh? Where are we 24 00:01:41,636 --> 00:01:44,916 Speaker 2: going to go together later on? After you've been together 25 00:01:44,956 --> 00:01:46,916 Speaker 2: for a while, Sometimes we lose a little bit of 26 00:01:46,916 --> 00:01:49,916 Speaker 2: that curiosity about the specificity of the other person and 27 00:01:49,956 --> 00:01:52,916 Speaker 2: what our relationship with them is going to look like. Instead, 28 00:01:53,036 --> 00:01:56,436 Speaker 2: we can sometimes get bogged down in ideas about what 29 00:01:56,516 --> 00:01:59,396 Speaker 2: a relationship is supposed to be. So then instead of 30 00:01:59,396 --> 00:02:02,756 Speaker 2: being thrilled by their idiosyncrasies and quirks, we're kind of 31 00:02:02,796 --> 00:02:06,516 Speaker 2: comparing our actual relationship against this imagined scorecard of some 32 00:02:06,636 --> 00:02:10,556 Speaker 2: hypothetical perfect one, and that can be really difficult to navigate. 33 00:02:11,076 --> 00:02:14,716 Speaker 2: It's also incredibly common, and it's something that today's guest, 34 00:02:14,836 --> 00:02:18,156 Speaker 2: Stephanie Yates and Yabuile, has thought about a lot. As 35 00:02:18,196 --> 00:02:21,316 Speaker 2: a licensed marriage and family therapist. She has found that 36 00:02:21,316 --> 00:02:24,516 Speaker 2: that mode of comparing our relationship to an imagined idea 37 00:02:24,596 --> 00:02:27,116 Speaker 2: of what a relationship is supposed to be, it can 38 00:02:27,156 --> 00:02:30,836 Speaker 2: often hold us back from deeper love and happiness and connection. 39 00:02:31,396 --> 00:02:33,236 Speaker 2: Here's a clip from Stephanie's TED Talk. 40 00:02:33,596 --> 00:02:37,716 Speaker 3: Relationship experts have found that One of the primary obstacles 41 00:02:37,756 --> 00:02:41,836 Speaker 3: that couples face are their own expectations. When we compare 42 00:02:41,876 --> 00:02:44,876 Speaker 3: ourselves to societal norms, we can develop a sense of 43 00:02:44,916 --> 00:02:48,356 Speaker 3: resentment toward our partner as well as a sense of 44 00:02:48,436 --> 00:02:52,436 Speaker 3: shame for how we ourselves are coming up short. Now, 45 00:02:52,476 --> 00:02:55,476 Speaker 3: before we really get into this, I have to say 46 00:02:55,956 --> 00:02:57,796 Speaker 3: that some of us have to reckon with the fact 47 00:02:58,196 --> 00:03:00,716 Speaker 3: that we may be with the wrong person. And that 48 00:03:00,756 --> 00:03:03,836 Speaker 3: will be clear. If your deepest desire is that your 49 00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:07,796 Speaker 3: partner change fundamental aspects of who they are, you really 50 00:03:07,796 --> 00:03:10,476 Speaker 3: want them to be a different person. But if you're 51 00:03:10,516 --> 00:03:14,116 Speaker 3: confident that you're with the right person and you just 52 00:03:14,676 --> 00:03:19,916 Speaker 3: still feel frustrated and dissatisfied, we may find that rejecting 53 00:03:20,156 --> 00:03:23,916 Speaker 3: everything we've known about good relationships is the key to 54 00:03:23,996 --> 00:03:27,196 Speaker 3: actually having one. 55 00:03:28,436 --> 00:03:30,516 Speaker 2: In today's episode, we're going to be talking a lot 56 00:03:30,556 --> 00:03:34,636 Speaker 2: about what a good relationship looks like and how anyone listening, yes, 57 00:03:34,716 --> 00:03:37,716 Speaker 2: even you, can get there. Let's get into it. 58 00:03:40,076 --> 00:03:42,236 Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Stephanie Ayson. You we lay a licensed marriage 59 00:03:42,236 --> 00:03:42,996 Speaker 3: of family therapist. 60 00:03:43,476 --> 00:03:46,236 Speaker 2: Okay, well, Stephanie, let's start at the beginning. How did 61 00:03:46,276 --> 00:03:49,636 Speaker 2: you first become interested in relationship dynamics. 62 00:03:49,316 --> 00:03:52,036 Speaker 3: As a child, I became really obsessed with what was 63 00:03:52,076 --> 00:03:56,356 Speaker 3: a traditional family structure versus what was untraditional because I 64 00:03:56,356 --> 00:03:59,396 Speaker 3: grew up in a traditional family structure with two parents, 65 00:03:59,476 --> 00:04:02,876 Speaker 3: two kids. As a child, I was very inquisitive and 66 00:04:02,916 --> 00:04:05,436 Speaker 3: I was kind of encouraged to just ask whatever was 67 00:04:05,476 --> 00:04:09,396 Speaker 3: on my mind. And so I remember going to like 68 00:04:09,436 --> 00:04:12,396 Speaker 3: someone's house and I would look at a family photo 69 00:04:12,436 --> 00:04:15,916 Speaker 3: and I'd say, Okay, is this their child? And they 70 00:04:15,916 --> 00:04:17,956 Speaker 3: say yes. I'm like, and are they married? And they'd 71 00:04:17,996 --> 00:04:21,036 Speaker 3: say no, when I'd be so confused, like, this is 72 00:04:21,076 --> 00:04:23,716 Speaker 3: their child and they're not married, you know. And then 73 00:04:23,756 --> 00:04:26,716 Speaker 3: I remember a time when I was like a toddler. 74 00:04:26,716 --> 00:04:28,396 Speaker 3: My mom tells the story I or told the story 75 00:04:28,436 --> 00:04:30,836 Speaker 3: she passed away in twenty fourteen. I was in a 76 00:04:30,876 --> 00:04:33,556 Speaker 3: high chair and we were at her sister's house. And 77 00:04:33,636 --> 00:04:37,476 Speaker 3: my aunt is a principal, and so sometimes, you know, 78 00:04:37,516 --> 00:04:39,996 Speaker 3: if there's a kid who's having a hard time at 79 00:04:40,036 --> 00:04:41,716 Speaker 3: the time, she would kind of open her home up 80 00:04:41,756 --> 00:04:44,396 Speaker 3: to them. She had three kids of her own. So 81 00:04:44,476 --> 00:04:46,596 Speaker 3: here I am three years old. I have a crush 82 00:04:46,676 --> 00:04:49,316 Speaker 3: on this sixteen year old boy that my aunt's taken in, 83 00:04:49,916 --> 00:04:51,956 Speaker 3: and you know, I'm thinking in my head I'm like, 84 00:04:51,956 --> 00:04:54,276 Speaker 3: we're gonna get married one day. In this high chair. 85 00:04:54,316 --> 00:04:57,196 Speaker 3: We're at dinner and my cousin refers to him as 86 00:04:57,236 --> 00:05:00,996 Speaker 3: her brother, and I was like, brother, don't say brother, 87 00:05:01,116 --> 00:05:06,556 Speaker 3: then him can't marry with me. So literally, at three 88 00:05:06,596 --> 00:05:10,036 Speaker 3: years old, I understood that if my cousin claimed this 89 00:05:10,156 --> 00:05:13,156 Speaker 3: man as her brother, that made him my cousin, and 90 00:05:13,196 --> 00:05:15,996 Speaker 3: that would be inappropriate for us to get married. A 91 00:05:16,036 --> 00:05:17,956 Speaker 3: lot of little girls at that age still believe they 92 00:05:17,956 --> 00:05:20,236 Speaker 3: can marry their father. So those are the kind of 93 00:05:20,276 --> 00:05:23,636 Speaker 3: things that my dad was paying a lot of attention to. 94 00:05:23,756 --> 00:05:26,796 Speaker 3: And he was like, this girl is obsessed with relationships 95 00:05:26,836 --> 00:05:30,436 Speaker 3: and family and marriage. And as I got older, I 96 00:05:30,476 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 3: became more inquisitive, you know, less rude of my questions, 97 00:05:33,836 --> 00:05:37,756 Speaker 3: but definitely always curious about how family became the type 98 00:05:37,756 --> 00:05:38,836 Speaker 3: of family they are today. 99 00:05:39,196 --> 00:05:41,716 Speaker 2: Well I'm curious because obviously this is one of the 100 00:05:41,716 --> 00:05:44,036 Speaker 2: big things that people think about when they think about you, 101 00:05:44,116 --> 00:05:47,676 Speaker 2: and your work is taking some of this pressure off 102 00:05:47,796 --> 00:05:51,556 Speaker 2: of relationships to conform to and I'm putting this in 103 00:05:51,596 --> 00:05:54,996 Speaker 2: big quotes, what a relationship is supposed to look like. 104 00:05:55,756 --> 00:05:58,956 Speaker 2: You have really been a strong advocate for a relationship 105 00:05:58,956 --> 00:06:02,516 Speaker 2: is supposed to look like whatever is healthy and functional 106 00:06:02,516 --> 00:06:03,916 Speaker 2: for the two people in it or for the more 107 00:06:03,956 --> 00:06:04,796 Speaker 2: than two people in it. 108 00:06:05,156 --> 00:06:08,476 Speaker 3: When I was younger, we were in a church environment 109 00:06:08,516 --> 00:06:11,636 Speaker 3: that my grandpa parents founded, where most of the children 110 00:06:11,676 --> 00:06:14,676 Speaker 3: around me were in a similar family structure like me, 111 00:06:15,476 --> 00:06:19,676 Speaker 3: and I just assumed that that's how all families worked. 112 00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:23,236 Speaker 3: So that's why I was always very perplexed when I 113 00:06:23,276 --> 00:06:26,956 Speaker 3: would see families that were structured differently. But what's interesting 114 00:06:27,116 --> 00:06:30,156 Speaker 3: is that as I got older and really paid attention 115 00:06:30,276 --> 00:06:34,276 Speaker 3: to the health of those relationships around me, I realized 116 00:06:34,316 --> 00:06:37,036 Speaker 3: that just because a person is in what it would 117 00:06:37,036 --> 00:06:40,396 Speaker 3: be considered a traditional or classic family structure, it doesn't 118 00:06:40,436 --> 00:06:43,676 Speaker 3: necessarily mean it's healthy, doesn't mean it's thriving, doesn't mean 119 00:06:43,716 --> 00:06:48,436 Speaker 3: that they're happy. My parents, their story is really weird 120 00:06:48,436 --> 00:06:50,716 Speaker 3: because my mom was actually engaged to someone else when 121 00:06:50,716 --> 00:06:52,396 Speaker 3: she got engaged to my dad, and he knew and 122 00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:54,756 Speaker 3: he didn't care. My dad was just like, if she 123 00:06:54,876 --> 00:06:57,756 Speaker 3: likes me, she likes me, And then she told she 124 00:06:57,876 --> 00:06:59,916 Speaker 3: told her other fiance like three weeks before the wedding 125 00:06:59,916 --> 00:07:02,156 Speaker 3: with my dad that she was marrying my dad. But 126 00:07:02,276 --> 00:07:04,796 Speaker 3: they knew each other for a very short period of time. 127 00:07:05,716 --> 00:07:08,476 Speaker 3: Very short engagements. People would be engaged for maybe like 128 00:07:08,796 --> 00:07:12,236 Speaker 3: six weeks, they put it together, get married at the church. 129 00:07:12,276 --> 00:07:14,836 Speaker 3: And so when I got with my husband, I was 130 00:07:14,916 --> 00:07:18,236 Speaker 3: eighteen and we dated for six years before we even 131 00:07:18,236 --> 00:07:22,116 Speaker 3: got engaged. And I remember, you know, having family members, 132 00:07:22,236 --> 00:07:24,956 Speaker 3: close friends say, you know, I don't agree with this, 133 00:07:25,156 --> 00:07:28,436 Speaker 3: I don't believe and being with someone that long before 134 00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:31,076 Speaker 3: you get married, and you know, at the time, I 135 00:07:31,156 --> 00:07:33,996 Speaker 3: was kind of thinking, but this is the healthiest relationship 136 00:07:34,116 --> 00:07:37,636 Speaker 3: I've even seen, Like it's the relationship I'm in, but 137 00:07:37,756 --> 00:07:41,916 Speaker 3: it's the healthiest one that I've seen. And so why 138 00:07:41,956 --> 00:07:44,556 Speaker 3: are we judging it based off of like an arbitrary 139 00:07:45,236 --> 00:07:47,396 Speaker 3: decision of when we should get married or if we 140 00:07:47,396 --> 00:07:49,596 Speaker 3: should get married. It was always our plan to get married, 141 00:07:49,596 --> 00:07:52,276 Speaker 3: but it frustrated me that people were putting their own 142 00:07:52,636 --> 00:07:56,316 Speaker 3: projected timeline on it. So as I got older and 143 00:07:56,356 --> 00:07:59,876 Speaker 3: I witnessed and experienced different types of structures for families 144 00:07:59,916 --> 00:08:03,556 Speaker 3: and relationships, that the people who were choosing to do 145 00:08:03,596 --> 00:08:06,156 Speaker 3: their own thing were the people that I found to 146 00:08:06,196 --> 00:08:08,316 Speaker 3: be the happiest. And I see the same in my work. 147 00:08:08,676 --> 00:08:12,596 Speaker 2: It seems it's like there's often this challenge in healthy 148 00:08:12,636 --> 00:08:17,476 Speaker 2: relationships which is, even though this is good and healthy, 149 00:08:18,036 --> 00:08:20,196 Speaker 2: I worry that it doesn't live up to what it 150 00:08:20,276 --> 00:08:21,436 Speaker 2: is supposed to look like. 151 00:08:21,956 --> 00:08:27,116 Speaker 3: Hmm. Absolutely, And I think it's based on those preconceived 152 00:08:27,116 --> 00:08:30,276 Speaker 3: notions that we have about how a relationship should be 153 00:08:30,276 --> 00:08:34,636 Speaker 3: structured and the trajectory that relationship should take. For example, 154 00:08:34,716 --> 00:08:37,116 Speaker 3: if I'm you know, on a year four or five 155 00:08:37,236 --> 00:08:40,556 Speaker 3: with my boyfriend, and you know, I'm looking around at 156 00:08:40,596 --> 00:08:44,396 Speaker 3: other people who are getting married and thinking, wow, that's 157 00:08:44,436 --> 00:08:47,236 Speaker 3: where we should be. If we're not there, then maybe 158 00:08:47,236 --> 00:08:50,396 Speaker 3: that's a reflection of us not actually being as happy 159 00:08:50,396 --> 00:08:53,796 Speaker 3: as I thought we were. That comparison can create some 160 00:08:53,916 --> 00:08:57,796 Speaker 3: tension a relationship that otherwise would have been fine, But 161 00:08:57,876 --> 00:09:01,716 Speaker 3: it's the comparison itself that's creating the tension. So I 162 00:09:01,836 --> 00:09:05,316 Speaker 3: find that helping people pil back the layers of why 163 00:09:05,436 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 3: is this important to you and seeing how much of 164 00:09:08,476 --> 00:09:10,956 Speaker 3: it is just this is what you've seen, this is 165 00:09:10,956 --> 00:09:13,636 Speaker 3: what you expect, and this is actually in alignment with 166 00:09:13,716 --> 00:09:18,396 Speaker 3: your personal values. For me, my personal value was being 167 00:09:18,396 --> 00:09:22,116 Speaker 3: with someone who was respectful, someone who was reliable, someone 168 00:09:22,116 --> 00:09:24,876 Speaker 3: who was committed to me. That was more important to 169 00:09:24,916 --> 00:09:28,316 Speaker 3: me than just being married, especially at a time when 170 00:09:28,316 --> 00:09:32,036 Speaker 3: we're not financially ready, when we hadn't gotten our degrees yet, 171 00:09:32,316 --> 00:09:35,196 Speaker 3: when we really hadn't done any living yet. It was 172 00:09:35,236 --> 00:09:38,556 Speaker 3: more important to me to have those experiences than just 173 00:09:38,596 --> 00:09:39,236 Speaker 3: to get married. 174 00:09:39,836 --> 00:09:43,236 Speaker 2: What does it mean to be in a traditional relationship 175 00:09:43,276 --> 00:09:44,556 Speaker 2: and what does it mean to be in a not 176 00:09:44,716 --> 00:09:45,996 Speaker 2: untraditional relationship? 177 00:09:46,156 --> 00:09:49,356 Speaker 3: So I think of it just that traditional expectation we 178 00:09:49,436 --> 00:09:53,396 Speaker 3: have with relationships, or historically we've had you meet someone 179 00:09:53,996 --> 00:09:56,956 Speaker 3: you know, typically you would meet them when you're maybe 180 00:09:56,956 --> 00:10:00,076 Speaker 3: in your twenties, maybe you date. I think the expectation 181 00:10:00,236 --> 00:10:03,556 Speaker 3: now is probably around two or three years, then you 182 00:10:03,636 --> 00:10:07,556 Speaker 3: get engaged. Maybe nowadays engagements are about a year to 183 00:10:07,636 --> 00:10:10,276 Speaker 3: two years, and then you get married. But it's even 184 00:10:10,356 --> 00:10:13,916 Speaker 3: interesting to think about how that timeline has changed, because 185 00:10:14,396 --> 00:10:18,396 Speaker 3: thirty years ago, that timeline would have been considered pretty long, 186 00:10:18,796 --> 00:10:24,076 Speaker 3: whereas now that's that's more expected and so monogamous, and 187 00:10:24,156 --> 00:10:29,676 Speaker 3: being in a relationship where you're following this expected timeline. 188 00:10:29,316 --> 00:10:31,276 Speaker 2: It does seem like a lot of what we're talking 189 00:10:31,276 --> 00:10:34,916 Speaker 2: about is the performance of a relationship rather than the 190 00:10:35,196 --> 00:10:37,716 Speaker 2: reality of her relationship. So I wonder if you could 191 00:10:37,756 --> 00:10:40,076 Speaker 2: just speak about that the difference between like performing a 192 00:10:40,116 --> 00:10:41,676 Speaker 2: relationship and living a relationship. 193 00:10:41,876 --> 00:10:44,756 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think social media is a huge factor 194 00:10:44,796 --> 00:10:48,436 Speaker 3: in that. Now, you know, we used to we had 195 00:10:48,436 --> 00:10:51,276 Speaker 3: to perform in our relationships. You're performing for your community, 196 00:10:51,396 --> 00:10:55,316 Speaker 3: maybe your church, maybe the people at your job. Now 197 00:10:55,396 --> 00:10:59,436 Speaker 3: we're performing on a really large scale, you know, getting 198 00:10:59,476 --> 00:11:03,316 Speaker 3: the perfect picture, having the perfect captions, you know, getting 199 00:11:03,396 --> 00:11:06,556 Speaker 3: that silly moment on your story to show people how 200 00:11:06,876 --> 00:11:10,356 Speaker 3: unserious you and your partner are. And so when I 201 00:11:10,356 --> 00:11:13,796 Speaker 3: think about performance, it's so much bigger, even than just 202 00:11:13,876 --> 00:11:16,396 Speaker 3: that timeline. It's how we interact. You know, we don't 203 00:11:16,396 --> 00:11:19,196 Speaker 3: want people to even know that we have conflict. A 204 00:11:19,196 --> 00:11:21,356 Speaker 3: lot of the time. My husband and I have always 205 00:11:21,356 --> 00:11:23,636 Speaker 3: been kind of big on well I am, he's not. 206 00:11:24,236 --> 00:11:26,956 Speaker 3: But if something's frustrating, I just say it. I don't 207 00:11:26,996 --> 00:11:29,876 Speaker 3: care where we are, I don't care who's around, you know, 208 00:11:29,916 --> 00:11:31,916 Speaker 3: I'll just say it. And people when we were dating, 209 00:11:31,916 --> 00:11:33,676 Speaker 3: people would always coming on like you guys will get 210 00:11:34,036 --> 00:11:36,236 Speaker 3: so annoyed with each other and then like five seconds 211 00:11:36,316 --> 00:11:38,116 Speaker 3: later you're hugging and kissing, And I'm like, to me, 212 00:11:38,236 --> 00:11:40,596 Speaker 3: that's how it should be, is just get it out, 213 00:11:41,036 --> 00:11:44,836 Speaker 3: express the grievance, address it, get past it, and move on, 214 00:11:45,396 --> 00:11:47,556 Speaker 3: whereas a lot of times I see people kind of 215 00:11:47,596 --> 00:11:51,316 Speaker 3: harboring because they so badly do not want other people 216 00:11:51,796 --> 00:11:54,996 Speaker 3: to see that they're having frustrations with their partner. And 217 00:11:55,036 --> 00:11:56,716 Speaker 3: then by the time you get home, maybe you're not 218 00:11:56,756 --> 00:11:59,516 Speaker 3: also not comfortable bringing it up because now was hours ago, 219 00:11:59,796 --> 00:12:02,116 Speaker 3: then now it's days ago, then now it's weeks ago. 220 00:12:02,596 --> 00:12:05,156 Speaker 3: And so I think the performance aspect can affect so 221 00:12:05,636 --> 00:12:09,076 Speaker 3: many elements of our relationship, even just to conflict management. 222 00:12:12,716 --> 00:12:14,476 Speaker 2: We're gonna take a quick break and then we will 223 00:12:14,476 --> 00:12:17,996 Speaker 2: be back with more from Stephanie Yates Anyiabile, don't go anywhere, 224 00:12:32,756 --> 00:12:35,756 Speaker 2: and we are back. We've been talking with marriage and 225 00:12:35,756 --> 00:12:39,036 Speaker 2: family therapist Stephanie Yates Anyabile about how many of us 226 00:12:39,076 --> 00:12:41,516 Speaker 2: get held back by our ideas about what a good 227 00:12:41,596 --> 00:12:44,436 Speaker 2: relationship is supposed to look like, and then we feel 228 00:12:44,476 --> 00:12:48,396 Speaker 2: disappointed if our actual relationship doesn't match this like movie 229 00:12:48,396 --> 00:12:51,236 Speaker 2: template that we have in our minds. Letting go of 230 00:12:51,236 --> 00:12:53,796 Speaker 2: some of those rigid ideas can help us figure out 231 00:12:53,876 --> 00:12:56,716 Speaker 2: with our partners the relationship that actually works best for 232 00:12:56,796 --> 00:12:59,556 Speaker 2: both of us. And yet you know, there is a 233 00:12:59,636 --> 00:13:03,396 Speaker 2: reason why these relationship templates are so appealing. It's nice 234 00:13:03,436 --> 00:13:05,716 Speaker 2: to not have to spend all your mental energy making 235 00:13:05,716 --> 00:13:10,156 Speaker 2: decisions and reinventing the wheel building a relationshipship from scratch. 236 00:13:10,916 --> 00:13:13,316 Speaker 2: There's an ease to these templates, and I don't think 237 00:13:13,356 --> 00:13:16,436 Speaker 2: that's all bad. So how do we balance that tension, Stephanie. 238 00:13:16,476 --> 00:13:18,436 Speaker 2: I imagine this must come up in your practice with 239 00:13:18,476 --> 00:13:19,396 Speaker 2: couples all the time. 240 00:13:19,756 --> 00:13:22,716 Speaker 3: Actually it doesn't. But I love that point, and I 241 00:13:22,716 --> 00:13:26,156 Speaker 3: think there's a lot of value in the template. It's 242 00:13:26,396 --> 00:13:30,836 Speaker 3: one of those things where it's not about totally invalidating 243 00:13:30,836 --> 00:13:35,196 Speaker 3: the template. It's about allowing yourself to customize when need it. 244 00:13:35,356 --> 00:13:35,556 Speaker 2: Right. 245 00:13:35,636 --> 00:13:37,796 Speaker 3: So if I get a car, I love the car, 246 00:13:38,036 --> 00:13:40,316 Speaker 3: but I don't really love the color. I can change 247 00:13:40,356 --> 00:13:42,996 Speaker 3: the color of that car, even if other people aren't 248 00:13:42,996 --> 00:13:45,356 Speaker 3: a big fan of bubblegum pink. If that's what I like, 249 00:13:45,836 --> 00:13:47,556 Speaker 3: you know, that's what's gonna make me happy. I'll hop 250 00:13:47,596 --> 00:13:49,796 Speaker 3: in that car, that bubblegum pink car, and have a 251 00:13:49,796 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 3: smile on my face. And so I totally agree with that. 252 00:13:52,836 --> 00:13:56,996 Speaker 3: I mean, we're not talking about necessarily like the most drastic, 253 00:13:57,596 --> 00:14:02,476 Speaker 3: most unconventional changes. Sometimes it's something very very small, so 254 00:14:02,516 --> 00:14:05,916 Speaker 3: small in fact that one of the biggest acts I'll 255 00:14:05,956 --> 00:14:08,436 Speaker 3: get when I'm doing interviews is people want to hear 256 00:14:08,516 --> 00:14:12,636 Speaker 3: those craz easy examples of you know, what's something really 257 00:14:12,836 --> 00:14:16,676 Speaker 3: out there that somebody did, because that's what's enticing, that's 258 00:14:16,716 --> 00:14:20,596 Speaker 3: what is juicy. But the reality is the most effective 259 00:14:20,676 --> 00:14:23,796 Speaker 3: changes are things that really sound boring, because at the 260 00:14:23,876 --> 00:14:26,156 Speaker 3: end of the day, they are boring. They're just different. 261 00:14:26,676 --> 00:14:30,036 Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, they sleep in two different beds. That's 262 00:14:30,116 --> 00:14:33,516 Speaker 3: really not that exciting, but somebody could hear that, and 263 00:14:33,556 --> 00:14:36,316 Speaker 3: now it's a juicy piece of gossip. You know, they're like, oh, 264 00:14:36,356 --> 00:14:39,876 Speaker 3: did you hear the there's been a separate beds. It's interesting, 265 00:14:39,956 --> 00:14:42,356 Speaker 3: you know how fascinating we are with what other humans 266 00:14:42,396 --> 00:14:46,156 Speaker 3: are doing. And because of that, we can make the 267 00:14:46,196 --> 00:14:51,596 Speaker 3: most basic, boring, benign things, you know, topics for weeks 268 00:14:51,796 --> 00:14:53,956 Speaker 3: and so that's that's what I'm talking about. 269 00:14:54,156 --> 00:14:55,916 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you brought up the beds thing. It's 270 00:14:55,916 --> 00:14:58,916 Speaker 2: a good example of something that is like, at its core, 271 00:14:59,556 --> 00:15:03,116 Speaker 2: just a purely logistical thing, right, like where do we 272 00:15:03,276 --> 00:15:06,036 Speaker 2: sleep at the end of the day, and yet it 273 00:15:06,076 --> 00:15:08,716 Speaker 2: can get loaded up with all of these sort of 274 00:15:08,836 --> 00:15:13,996 Speaker 2: xations societal, personal, and also like what will our friends think? 275 00:15:14,516 --> 00:15:16,556 Speaker 2: Even if you wanted to sleep in separate beds and 276 00:15:16,596 --> 00:15:19,836 Speaker 2: you had the space for another bed, you might think like, 277 00:15:20,156 --> 00:15:22,956 Speaker 2: but what will that mean when it doesn't have to 278 00:15:23,036 --> 00:15:23,836 Speaker 2: mean anything? 279 00:15:24,196 --> 00:15:28,036 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. I actually even hate the term for it. Now. 280 00:15:28,196 --> 00:15:30,556 Speaker 3: You know, before people were just sleeping in separate beds, 281 00:15:30,556 --> 00:15:33,116 Speaker 3: and now they're calling it a sleep divorce. I'm like, whooah, 282 00:15:33,316 --> 00:15:37,156 Speaker 3: why that language? That's so intense? Sleep divorce. I remember 283 00:15:37,236 --> 00:15:39,956 Speaker 3: there was a couple that has a big platform that 284 00:15:40,036 --> 00:15:44,876 Speaker 3: came out about sleeping separately because they had two babies 285 00:15:45,036 --> 00:15:47,716 Speaker 3: under one, right, they just had a newborn and then 286 00:15:47,756 --> 00:15:50,916 Speaker 3: they had like an eleven month old, and they were 287 00:15:50,956 --> 00:15:54,596 Speaker 3: having a super hard time with their schedule for sleep, 288 00:15:54,956 --> 00:15:57,236 Speaker 3: and so one of them was sleeping I think in 289 00:15:57,236 --> 00:15:58,756 Speaker 3: a bed in the nursery and the other one was 290 00:15:58,796 --> 00:16:01,676 Speaker 3: sleeping in the bed. And everybody was like, oh, well, 291 00:16:01,716 --> 00:16:03,396 Speaker 3: I hope you're ready to get a divorce. This is 292 00:16:03,396 --> 00:16:06,636 Speaker 3: step number one. Or people were using it really to 293 00:16:07,476 --> 00:16:10,596 Speaker 3: support their own theories about how unhappy this couple really 294 00:16:10,716 --> 00:16:12,916 Speaker 3: was and how they were pretending to be in this 295 00:16:12,956 --> 00:16:16,556 Speaker 3: great relationship, and I was like, wow, we're really reading 296 00:16:16,596 --> 00:16:19,396 Speaker 3: a lot into something that they didn't even have to share. 297 00:16:20,036 --> 00:16:22,636 Speaker 3: They were sharing it so that they could help other 298 00:16:22,676 --> 00:16:25,516 Speaker 3: couples who might be having the same struggle. Because at 299 00:16:25,556 --> 00:16:27,276 Speaker 3: the end of the day, if we're well rested, we're 300 00:16:27,316 --> 00:16:30,316 Speaker 3: better partners for each other, we're better parents. But if 301 00:16:30,316 --> 00:16:34,076 Speaker 3: we're both exhausted, we're cranky, we're frustrated or resenting each other, 302 00:16:34,356 --> 00:16:36,756 Speaker 3: we're questioning why we ever had kids in the first place. 303 00:16:37,116 --> 00:16:41,356 Speaker 3: That's not really a thriving environment for a relationship to grow. 304 00:16:41,396 --> 00:16:46,196 Speaker 3: And transitions are some of the most stressful aspects of life, 305 00:16:46,196 --> 00:16:48,596 Speaker 3: and most of the time when people are coming into therapy, 306 00:16:49,156 --> 00:16:53,236 Speaker 3: it's because they've just experienced some major transition. Whether it's hey, 307 00:16:53,236 --> 00:16:55,556 Speaker 3: I just got married, Hey I just moved, I just 308 00:16:55,596 --> 00:16:59,156 Speaker 3: had a baby, I just got divorced. Those changes create 309 00:16:59,276 --> 00:17:02,516 Speaker 3: somewhat of an identity crisis, and in those moments, we 310 00:17:02,636 --> 00:17:05,276 Speaker 3: have to be willing to reevaluate the rules of our life, 311 00:17:05,476 --> 00:17:07,516 Speaker 3: and something as simple as sleeping in the same bed 312 00:17:07,556 --> 00:17:09,836 Speaker 3: with our partner could be a rule that you kind 313 00:17:09,836 --> 00:17:12,076 Speaker 3: of change just so that we can both get sleep 314 00:17:12,196 --> 00:17:14,996 Speaker 3: and know that we're tending to our kids and being 315 00:17:14,996 --> 00:17:16,076 Speaker 3: our best selves. 316 00:17:16,716 --> 00:17:20,596 Speaker 2: How do you handle transitions and reevaluate rules in a 317 00:17:20,636 --> 00:17:23,516 Speaker 2: way that brings you together rather than pushes you apart. 318 00:17:23,796 --> 00:17:26,516 Speaker 3: Well, I think by really checking in with each other 319 00:17:26,596 --> 00:17:30,196 Speaker 3: on how do you envision yourself changing through this transition. 320 00:17:30,556 --> 00:17:34,196 Speaker 3: And that's an ongoing conversation, especially when people are making 321 00:17:34,236 --> 00:17:37,236 Speaker 3: that transition from zero to one kid. You know, it 322 00:17:37,276 --> 00:17:40,476 Speaker 3: goes from just us to now we have somebody who 323 00:17:40,516 --> 00:17:42,316 Speaker 3: needs all of our attention, and you know, how do 324 00:17:42,356 --> 00:17:44,916 Speaker 3: we still focus on ourselves then to the transition is 325 00:17:44,996 --> 00:17:48,076 Speaker 3: like two to three kids, where now the kids outnumber 326 00:17:48,156 --> 00:17:50,476 Speaker 3: the parents, and it's like, uh, you know, we can't 327 00:17:50,516 --> 00:17:52,796 Speaker 3: just both take one and do something, you know, so 328 00:17:53,156 --> 00:17:55,076 Speaker 3: in those moments you really have to check in with 329 00:17:55,116 --> 00:17:58,556 Speaker 3: each other and be honest. Sometimes we don't really share 330 00:17:58,596 --> 00:18:03,036 Speaker 3: where we're at because we're worried about our partner being offended. 331 00:18:03,756 --> 00:18:06,956 Speaker 3: Let's say you might not be the primary caretaker. Maybe 332 00:18:06,996 --> 00:18:10,396 Speaker 3: you're back at work, but you're still helping with the 333 00:18:10,476 --> 00:18:13,036 Speaker 3: kids while working a full time job, and maybe one 334 00:18:13,076 --> 00:18:16,356 Speaker 3: partner is staying at home at this time taking care 335 00:18:16,396 --> 00:18:19,876 Speaker 3: of the kids. That partner who's working might not feel 336 00:18:19,916 --> 00:18:23,716 Speaker 3: comfortable saying like I'm so exhausted and it's so hard 337 00:18:23,796 --> 00:18:27,476 Speaker 3: now transitioning into having these kids, and you know, having 338 00:18:27,516 --> 00:18:31,516 Speaker 3: to manage not just my life, but our lives. And 339 00:18:31,556 --> 00:18:33,396 Speaker 3: they might be worried that there are other partners like 340 00:18:33,596 --> 00:18:37,356 Speaker 3: you're stressed, you're tired. I'm the one at home all day. 341 00:18:37,476 --> 00:18:40,316 Speaker 3: And when we don't allow our partners the space to 342 00:18:40,396 --> 00:18:44,476 Speaker 3: really process what they're going through emotionally, nobody has the 343 00:18:44,716 --> 00:18:48,796 Speaker 3: opportunity to rethink what they're doing. So if we can 344 00:18:48,876 --> 00:18:51,076 Speaker 3: just hear that and say and validate it, I can 345 00:18:51,156 --> 00:18:54,316 Speaker 3: understand that I'm also really exhausted. I can't imagine what 346 00:18:54,356 --> 00:18:56,396 Speaker 3: it's like to be working and helping out in the 347 00:18:56,396 --> 00:18:58,756 Speaker 3: capacity that you are, Like I thought it would be 348 00:18:58,796 --> 00:19:00,636 Speaker 3: a little bit easier being at home, but I'm finding 349 00:19:00,676 --> 00:19:02,556 Speaker 3: this to be way harder than what it was when 350 00:19:02,596 --> 00:19:05,796 Speaker 3: I was working full time, So I get it. And 351 00:19:05,796 --> 00:19:08,716 Speaker 3: then asking each other is there anything that I could 352 00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:11,636 Speaker 3: do that would make your life a little bit easier? 353 00:19:11,996 --> 00:19:14,156 Speaker 3: They might say I haven't been able to sleep, Well, 354 00:19:14,276 --> 00:19:16,716 Speaker 3: that's how we get to sleeping separately. Or maybe they say, 355 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:19,916 Speaker 3: you know, I've been really thinking that I need to 356 00:19:19,996 --> 00:19:23,476 Speaker 3: go on a trip by myself. I know that sounds 357 00:19:23,516 --> 00:19:26,596 Speaker 3: super selfish, but I'd be willing to take care of 358 00:19:26,636 --> 00:19:29,196 Speaker 3: the logistics. Maybe get my mom or your mom to 359 00:19:29,236 --> 00:19:30,556 Speaker 3: come and stay with you for a while, and then 360 00:19:30,596 --> 00:19:33,476 Speaker 3: it's your turn. You take a trip by yourself, you know, 361 00:19:33,836 --> 00:19:36,836 Speaker 3: really allowing ourselves to think creatively, because your partner could 362 00:19:36,836 --> 00:19:38,636 Speaker 3: get offended by that, Oh, you're going to take a 363 00:19:38,716 --> 00:19:41,476 Speaker 3: vacation and I'm gonna be stuck here with the kids. 364 00:19:42,036 --> 00:19:43,556 Speaker 3: And if they feel that way, they say, hey, how 365 00:19:43,596 --> 00:19:46,676 Speaker 3: about you go first. I could see you you're probably 366 00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:49,036 Speaker 3: really burnt out, let me hold down the ford, and 367 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:51,756 Speaker 3: then I'll go because we really, realistically both of us 368 00:19:51,796 --> 00:19:54,676 Speaker 3: can't go right now with the kids. And so I 369 00:19:54,676 --> 00:19:58,436 Speaker 3: think that checking in with each other being really honest 370 00:19:58,556 --> 00:20:02,036 Speaker 3: about how you're feeling with the current structure of your relationship, 371 00:20:02,116 --> 00:20:06,516 Speaker 3: of your life, that naturally opens the door for conversations 372 00:20:06,556 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 3: about what we could be doing differently, and if you're struggling, 373 00:20:09,716 --> 00:20:12,596 Speaker 3: come to a couple's therapists because so many of the 374 00:20:13,316 --> 00:20:15,596 Speaker 3: you know, a little bit outside of the box things 375 00:20:15,636 --> 00:20:18,196 Speaker 3: that my couples do, really they came up with those ideas, 376 00:20:18,436 --> 00:20:21,156 Speaker 3: and I just kind of said, hmm, you said, you 377 00:20:21,276 --> 00:20:24,916 Speaker 3: wish that you guys could live in a different live 378 00:20:24,956 --> 00:20:28,916 Speaker 3: in different houses. You wish that is that a possibility? 379 00:20:28,996 --> 00:20:31,836 Speaker 3: Is that feasible? And they're kind of taken aback, like, oh, 380 00:20:31,916 --> 00:20:34,236 Speaker 3: I didn't really mean that, But it's like, let's think 381 00:20:34,236 --> 00:20:37,916 Speaker 3: about it. That's a possibility. Could we make that happen 382 00:20:38,436 --> 00:20:40,996 Speaker 3: if we really wanted to. How would we feel about that? 383 00:20:41,236 --> 00:20:42,876 Speaker 3: What would that mean? On a larger scale, would you 384 00:20:42,956 --> 00:20:45,476 Speaker 3: look at that as your relationship is failing? Or is 385 00:20:45,516 --> 00:20:49,276 Speaker 3: that something that your relationship could survive? And so those 386 00:20:49,316 --> 00:20:51,476 Speaker 3: kind of conversations I think can open up the door 387 00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:53,116 Speaker 3: to those creative solutions. 388 00:20:53,596 --> 00:20:55,236 Speaker 2: It also makes me think that a lot of what 389 00:20:55,276 --> 00:20:58,716 Speaker 2: we've talked about is underlined by by like a real 390 00:20:58,876 --> 00:21:02,916 Speaker 2: fear that if we step away from what I've been 391 00:21:02,956 --> 00:21:06,996 Speaker 2: holding on to, that this thing is going to instantly dissolve. 392 00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:09,916 Speaker 2: The house of cards is going to collapse. Like the 393 00:21:09,956 --> 00:21:12,036 Speaker 2: one thing that is keeping our marriage together is that 394 00:21:12,036 --> 00:21:13,756 Speaker 2: we sleep in the same bed, or the one thing 395 00:21:13,796 --> 00:21:15,516 Speaker 2: that is keeping our marriage together is that I'm not 396 00:21:15,596 --> 00:21:17,876 Speaker 2: admitting how hard it is right now. And if I 397 00:21:18,036 --> 00:21:19,996 Speaker 2: was to say, like this is actually a challenge, or 398 00:21:20,036 --> 00:21:22,196 Speaker 2: I was to say like, hey, I'm going to sleep 399 00:21:22,196 --> 00:21:24,556 Speaker 2: in another room, then like that is the first step 400 00:21:24,596 --> 00:21:29,596 Speaker 2: in an impossible to reverse slide towards divorce, heartbreak, disaster, 401 00:21:29,956 --> 00:21:33,156 Speaker 2: and I think it's also worth saying like, sometimes divorce 402 00:21:33,236 --> 00:21:35,796 Speaker 2: isn't the worst option, but people are really thinking about 403 00:21:35,836 --> 00:21:38,716 Speaker 2: these as like if I do this one thing, it's 404 00:21:38,756 --> 00:21:40,876 Speaker 2: going to go terrible and it's going to be horrible 405 00:21:40,916 --> 00:21:43,076 Speaker 2: for everyone. And what I'm hearing from you is that 406 00:21:43,116 --> 00:21:45,796 Speaker 2: a lot of your work is to say it doesn't 407 00:21:45,836 --> 00:21:48,556 Speaker 2: necessarily mean that you can try things and you can 408 00:21:48,596 --> 00:21:50,596 Speaker 2: be honest without it meaning that this person is going 409 00:21:50,636 --> 00:21:51,356 Speaker 2: to get pushed away. 410 00:21:51,996 --> 00:21:55,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, and the key word there is try. I always 411 00:21:55,116 --> 00:21:58,996 Speaker 3: present it to my couples as an experiment. Let's test 412 00:21:59,036 --> 00:22:02,596 Speaker 3: it out. So if you feel like, all right, we've 413 00:22:02,676 --> 00:22:07,156 Speaker 3: tried for two weeks sleeping apart and I'm actually crankier, 414 00:22:07,476 --> 00:22:10,836 Speaker 3: I actually feel more distant. This is not working for me, 415 00:22:11,036 --> 00:22:12,876 Speaker 3: then we need to figure out other solutions. 416 00:22:13,156 --> 00:22:15,876 Speaker 2: I do want to ask, though, we are just talking 417 00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:19,236 Speaker 2: from the assumption that couples may have different needs, but 418 00:22:19,276 --> 00:22:21,396 Speaker 2: that they're working in good faith and that it's a 419 00:22:21,436 --> 00:22:25,356 Speaker 2: healthy relationship. Where is the line where it's like this 420 00:22:25,396 --> 00:22:30,396 Speaker 2: is untraditional but not because it's just different, because it's unhealthy, 421 00:22:30,676 --> 00:22:33,716 Speaker 2: or it's like a power dynamic that you don't want 422 00:22:33,756 --> 00:22:36,836 Speaker 2: to continue in the relationship. How do you figure that out? 423 00:22:37,076 --> 00:22:41,956 Speaker 3: I think simply by measuring both partners level of wanting 424 00:22:42,796 --> 00:22:46,636 Speaker 3: or being open to the change. Right. So, if one 425 00:22:46,756 --> 00:22:48,756 Speaker 3: partner is like I want to live separately and the 426 00:22:48,756 --> 00:22:54,356 Speaker 3: other partners like live separately, so who's going to have 427 00:22:54,396 --> 00:22:56,516 Speaker 3: the kids? This is dysfunctional for our kids. We're going 428 00:22:56,556 --> 00:22:59,676 Speaker 3: back and forth between two different places, you know, where 429 00:22:59,716 --> 00:23:01,956 Speaker 3: I'm going to be stuck with watching them. And then 430 00:23:01,956 --> 00:23:04,516 Speaker 3: they're like, well, I just feel like this is what's 431 00:23:04,556 --> 00:23:07,876 Speaker 3: going to work for me and otherwise I just don't 432 00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:11,396 Speaker 3: want to be together. Well, that's antimatum. That's not you 433 00:23:11,476 --> 00:23:13,356 Speaker 3: putting the relationship first. You're not doing it for the 434 00:23:13,356 --> 00:23:16,876 Speaker 3: health of the relationship. You're doing it with the sole 435 00:23:16,916 --> 00:23:19,876 Speaker 3: focus of what works for you. That is what I 436 00:23:19,916 --> 00:23:22,916 Speaker 3: think is dysfunctional. So if you and your partner are 437 00:23:22,916 --> 00:23:26,596 Speaker 3: both open to experimenting and also coming through on your 438 00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:29,236 Speaker 3: promise that this is an experiment. If I have a 439 00:23:29,276 --> 00:23:31,556 Speaker 3: couple that's going to test out living apart, for example, 440 00:23:31,676 --> 00:23:34,356 Speaker 3: I like to have some sort of contract in place. 441 00:23:34,956 --> 00:23:36,676 Speaker 3: How often are we going to talk on the phone, 442 00:23:37,156 --> 00:23:39,076 Speaker 3: How often are we going to have a date night, 443 00:23:39,516 --> 00:23:42,956 Speaker 3: how often are we having sleepovers? Let's be very concrete, 444 00:23:43,596 --> 00:23:45,436 Speaker 3: because this is going to be what we consider the 445 00:23:45,436 --> 00:23:48,756 Speaker 3: bare minimum for making sure you're maintaining your emotional intimacy 446 00:23:49,276 --> 00:23:52,556 Speaker 3: while living apart, So making sure you're coming through on 447 00:23:52,636 --> 00:23:56,076 Speaker 3: those things, being loyal, and making it clear the reason 448 00:23:56,156 --> 00:23:58,956 Speaker 3: we're making this change is so that our relationship can 449 00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:02,476 Speaker 3: be better. This is not a punishment toward you. This 450 00:24:02,556 --> 00:24:04,876 Speaker 3: is not me just testing out the waters of being 451 00:24:04,916 --> 00:24:07,716 Speaker 3: without you, right, because this is not a trial separation 452 00:24:08,236 --> 00:24:10,276 Speaker 3: measly being in a separate is not me just saying 453 00:24:10,476 --> 00:24:12,116 Speaker 3: how would I like if myself in a separate bed 454 00:24:12,156 --> 00:24:14,436 Speaker 3: so we could break up? You know, if you're looking 455 00:24:14,516 --> 00:24:16,396 Speaker 3: at it as I want to be my best self 456 00:24:16,436 --> 00:24:18,596 Speaker 3: for you, and I recognize when i'm losing rest I'm 457 00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:21,876 Speaker 3: not a good partner, that's a healthy motivation to try 458 00:24:21,876 --> 00:24:26,396 Speaker 3: something different. If the motivation is exclusively about what benefits you, 459 00:24:27,196 --> 00:24:30,316 Speaker 3: or more so about punishing your partner or testing out 460 00:24:30,316 --> 00:24:32,596 Speaker 3: what it's like not to be together and just not 461 00:24:32,796 --> 00:24:35,116 Speaker 3: using the word separation, I would consider those to be 462 00:24:35,196 --> 00:24:36,676 Speaker 3: unhealthy intentions. 463 00:24:37,276 --> 00:24:38,916 Speaker 2: And what about if you feel like if you're the 464 00:24:38,916 --> 00:24:41,796 Speaker 2: partner who is not proposing it, but who is being 465 00:24:41,836 --> 00:24:44,516 Speaker 2: proposed to. I think a lot of people feel fear 466 00:24:44,676 --> 00:24:47,916 Speaker 2: when they're talking about navigating changes in relationships that it's like, 467 00:24:48,076 --> 00:24:50,716 Speaker 2: if I don't do this, I'm going to lose this person, 468 00:24:50,916 --> 00:24:54,076 Speaker 2: and so I'd rather try anything than lose them, even 469 00:24:54,116 --> 00:24:57,156 Speaker 2: if they really wouldn't rather try that thing. Yeah, what 470 00:24:57,156 --> 00:24:58,076 Speaker 2: do you say to those people? 471 00:24:58,596 --> 00:25:01,836 Speaker 3: And that is a tricky that's a tricky balance, right, 472 00:25:01,916 --> 00:25:06,116 Speaker 3: because in that sense, it could also feel like an ultimatum. 473 00:25:06,596 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 3: If you have that mentality that if you don't do this, 474 00:25:08,916 --> 00:25:12,196 Speaker 3: you're lose your partner, that is you basically giving yourself 475 00:25:12,196 --> 00:25:15,396 Speaker 3: an ultimatum, even if that's not what your partner is saying. Right. 476 00:25:15,636 --> 00:25:20,156 Speaker 3: But I think if you recognize that your relationship is 477 00:25:20,236 --> 00:25:24,596 Speaker 3: in a place where experimenting with something different from what 478 00:25:24,636 --> 00:25:26,876 Speaker 3: you all have been doing for the last few months 479 00:25:26,916 --> 00:25:30,196 Speaker 3: or years of your relationship, and you think that there's 480 00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:32,756 Speaker 3: a chance that this relationship that you do really want 481 00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:36,876 Speaker 3: could be salvaged, even if you know you're not you 482 00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:39,996 Speaker 3: aren't really sure about this, who would be. It's out 483 00:25:40,036 --> 00:25:42,556 Speaker 3: of the box for a reason. It's not normal. You 484 00:25:42,676 --> 00:25:45,996 Speaker 3: have no model for what this would look like and 485 00:25:46,036 --> 00:25:49,756 Speaker 3: how successful it will be. It's scary for everybody. I 486 00:25:49,916 --> 00:25:52,796 Speaker 3: don't expect you to be completely comfortable with something you've 487 00:25:52,836 --> 00:25:56,076 Speaker 3: never seen. But if you're open to seeing if this 488 00:25:56,116 --> 00:25:59,836 Speaker 3: can improve what has felt like a dysfunctional dynamic, I 489 00:25:59,876 --> 00:26:03,836 Speaker 3: think that's still healthy. You're just worried and concerned about 490 00:26:03,836 --> 00:26:06,876 Speaker 3: the outcome. That's the case for all experiments. We don't 491 00:26:06,916 --> 00:26:09,996 Speaker 3: know the ending. We don't know the outcome of an experiment. 492 00:26:10,316 --> 00:26:12,036 Speaker 3: That's the purpose of doing it. 493 00:26:16,116 --> 00:26:17,996 Speaker 2: We're going to do a quick experiment right now. That's 494 00:26:17,996 --> 00:26:20,756 Speaker 2: called taking a break for podcast ads, and my hypothesis 495 00:26:20,796 --> 00:26:24,116 Speaker 2: is we will be right back. It's a very strong hypothesis, 496 00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:46,516 Speaker 2: and we are back. Stephanie, how do you encourage people 497 00:26:46,596 --> 00:26:49,316 Speaker 2: to have conversations to figure out what their individual and 498 00:26:49,356 --> 00:26:52,836 Speaker 2: then shared relationship expectations are. Just to give a low 499 00:26:52,876 --> 00:26:57,356 Speaker 2: stakes example, silence can be really bad. It can be 500 00:26:57,476 --> 00:27:00,236 Speaker 2: like you're giving me the silent treatment, you're fuming we're 501 00:27:00,236 --> 00:27:03,956 Speaker 2: not communicating, Or it can be you're so comfortable that 502 00:27:03,996 --> 00:27:05,636 Speaker 2: you don't need to say anything that we're just sitting 503 00:27:05,676 --> 00:27:08,196 Speaker 2: in the same room and you're reading your book and 504 00:27:08,236 --> 00:27:11,396 Speaker 2: I'm meeting my breakfas and we're not talking in the 505 00:27:11,436 --> 00:27:14,396 Speaker 2: most loving of ways. But often there's a mismatch in 506 00:27:14,476 --> 00:27:18,116 Speaker 2: like how we interpret silence, and I know that there's many, many, 507 00:27:18,156 --> 00:27:20,876 Speaker 2: many other things that could fill in that blank instead 508 00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:23,196 Speaker 2: of silence, So how do you encourage couples to actually 509 00:27:23,236 --> 00:27:24,396 Speaker 2: have communication about that? 510 00:27:24,876 --> 00:27:27,636 Speaker 3: In that case, Most of the time, it is our 511 00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:32,236 Speaker 3: history are past a lot of times trauma that influences 512 00:27:32,316 --> 00:27:36,236 Speaker 3: the way we experience a situation. So if I grew 513 00:27:36,316 --> 00:27:40,236 Speaker 3: up in a withholding environment where my mom punished me 514 00:27:40,316 --> 00:27:43,036 Speaker 3: by not talking to me, for example, then I might 515 00:27:43,076 --> 00:27:46,716 Speaker 3: interpret my partner silence as doing the same thing. Whereas 516 00:27:46,716 --> 00:27:48,996 Speaker 3: if they grew up in like a household full of 517 00:27:49,036 --> 00:27:52,356 Speaker 3: introverts where everybody did their own thing, they view silence 518 00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:55,716 Speaker 3: as a comfort. It means something totally different to them. 519 00:27:56,116 --> 00:27:58,356 Speaker 3: And this is why it's very hard to talk about 520 00:27:58,956 --> 00:28:05,036 Speaker 3: managing these conversations without therapy. I'm biased on that because 521 00:28:05,436 --> 00:28:07,676 Speaker 3: I a lot of my couples. I just can't imagine 522 00:28:07,676 --> 00:28:10,156 Speaker 3: them trying to manage these convers stations on their own, 523 00:28:10,676 --> 00:28:14,476 Speaker 3: because we so rarely can see our own bias or 524 00:28:14,516 --> 00:28:18,636 Speaker 3: the impact of our history on how we're engaging without 525 00:28:18,676 --> 00:28:21,476 Speaker 3: an objective person telling us that, and that objective person 526 00:28:21,916 --> 00:28:24,596 Speaker 3: sometimes can't be our partner, right because it feels like 527 00:28:25,316 --> 00:28:28,156 Speaker 3: you're taking things I've shared with you and using them 528 00:28:28,276 --> 00:28:31,436 Speaker 3: against me. So it feels like they're breaking that trust 529 00:28:31,476 --> 00:28:35,036 Speaker 3: by bringing up your past, whereas a therapist is a 530 00:28:35,036 --> 00:28:38,236 Speaker 3: little bit of a safer, more neutral person to bring 531 00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:40,836 Speaker 3: up something maybe your partner or maybe even you already see, 532 00:28:41,316 --> 00:28:42,956 Speaker 3: but they're bringing it up in a way that's going 533 00:28:42,996 --> 00:28:46,796 Speaker 3: to feel more productive. So for me, it's important sometimes 534 00:28:46,796 --> 00:28:49,636 Speaker 3: if you're at that point to bring it to therapy. 535 00:28:49,676 --> 00:28:52,636 Speaker 3: I have couples who come to me preventatively. They're like, Okay, 536 00:28:53,316 --> 00:28:55,996 Speaker 3: we're just going to be preemptive here. We don't have 537 00:28:56,076 --> 00:28:58,116 Speaker 3: any issues, but we want to make sure that we 538 00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:02,156 Speaker 3: have good skills for communication. We want to explore if 539 00:29:02,156 --> 00:29:05,476 Speaker 3: there's anything in our history that might affect our upcoming 540 00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:08,596 Speaker 3: marriage or just our relationship. And I love sessions like 541 00:29:08,636 --> 00:29:13,036 Speaker 3: that because we're not conflict focused. Let's explore what you've 542 00:29:13,116 --> 00:29:16,716 Speaker 3: learned about relationships growing up, What is your the healthiest 543 00:29:16,756 --> 00:29:20,076 Speaker 3: relationship you've seen, what's been the most damaging interaction you've 544 00:29:20,076 --> 00:29:22,516 Speaker 3: ever had, those sorts of things, so that we can 545 00:29:22,596 --> 00:29:25,516 Speaker 3: kind of plan ahead. But if you haven't already done 546 00:29:25,556 --> 00:29:29,396 Speaker 3: that in advance, it's not too late. But I think 547 00:29:29,516 --> 00:29:32,196 Speaker 3: it is helpful to have a third party that can 548 00:29:32,276 --> 00:29:35,556 Speaker 3: help you kind of process and see, Okay, you know 549 00:29:35,636 --> 00:29:38,316 Speaker 3: you said something similar about your child that when your 550 00:29:38,396 --> 00:29:41,196 Speaker 3: child isn't speaking to you, you get really anxious and 551 00:29:41,276 --> 00:29:43,796 Speaker 3: worried and frustrated. So that lets me know it's not 552 00:29:43,956 --> 00:29:47,476 Speaker 3: just your marriage. You're feeling this in multiple context. So 553 00:29:47,476 --> 00:29:49,636 Speaker 3: do you think there's a possibility that it's more your 554 00:29:49,676 --> 00:29:54,276 Speaker 3: perception than what the person's intention is And gently walking 555 00:29:54,316 --> 00:29:57,316 Speaker 3: them into that silence is a great example of how 556 00:29:57,356 --> 00:30:00,676 Speaker 3: people can be having completely different experiences in the same moment. 557 00:30:01,196 --> 00:30:04,116 Speaker 2: How do you actually get into couple's therapy as a couple, 558 00:30:04,436 --> 00:30:06,636 Speaker 2: how do you have that conversation then make it actually happen. 559 00:30:06,876 --> 00:30:10,076 Speaker 3: I always say to focus on the positives and to 560 00:30:10,116 --> 00:30:14,756 Speaker 3: focus on your goal of like thriving in your relationship. 561 00:30:15,276 --> 00:30:17,676 Speaker 3: What the mistake we make a lot of times is 562 00:30:17,796 --> 00:30:19,676 Speaker 3: we want to bring it up when we've just had 563 00:30:19,716 --> 00:30:23,356 Speaker 3: an argument or when we're in a bad place frustrated 564 00:30:23,476 --> 00:30:25,676 Speaker 3: with our partner and we're like, oh my gosh, we 565 00:30:25,716 --> 00:30:28,116 Speaker 3: need to go to couple's therapy, or you need help, 566 00:30:28,396 --> 00:30:30,276 Speaker 3: or I need somebody to explain to you why you're 567 00:30:30,276 --> 00:30:34,036 Speaker 3: doing this and this wrong. That's not really saying I'm 568 00:30:34,076 --> 00:30:36,596 Speaker 3: invested in our growth as a couple. That's saying you 569 00:30:36,636 --> 00:30:38,356 Speaker 3: need to fix yourself, and I want to be there 570 00:30:38,356 --> 00:30:41,356 Speaker 3: to witness it. So making sure it's clear to your partner. 571 00:30:41,436 --> 00:30:43,716 Speaker 3: You know, I'm noticing that we're kind of coming to 572 00:30:43,796 --> 00:30:46,116 Speaker 3: the same issue over and over again. I don't think 573 00:30:46,116 --> 00:30:49,516 Speaker 3: we're successfully talking about it. It's super important to me 574 00:30:49,716 --> 00:30:52,476 Speaker 3: that we communicate well because I want us to be 575 00:30:52,556 --> 00:30:55,516 Speaker 3: together as long as possible, and I don't want something 576 00:30:55,636 --> 00:30:58,236 Speaker 3: as small as this, or even as big as this, 577 00:30:58,356 --> 00:31:00,356 Speaker 3: to get in the way of that goal. When I 578 00:31:00,516 --> 00:31:02,276 Speaker 3: decided to be with you, I didn't mean to do 579 00:31:02,316 --> 00:31:04,916 Speaker 3: that short term, and so let's get as much help 580 00:31:04,956 --> 00:31:07,636 Speaker 3: as we can to make sure that's a reality for us. So, 581 00:31:07,796 --> 00:31:10,756 Speaker 3: as couples, it's easy to look at our partner as 582 00:31:10,756 --> 00:31:14,236 Speaker 3: the problem, or our partner's behavior as the problem. The 583 00:31:14,236 --> 00:31:16,996 Speaker 3: more that you can externalize that and look at the 584 00:31:17,036 --> 00:31:20,156 Speaker 3: problem as separate from your partner or from your relationship, 585 00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:23,396 Speaker 3: the more successful communication will be. As we're talking about 586 00:31:23,436 --> 00:31:26,516 Speaker 3: that issue, right, So, let's say your partner smoke cigarettes. 587 00:31:27,156 --> 00:31:29,996 Speaker 3: We don't want to say you're smoking is such an issue, 588 00:31:30,636 --> 00:31:33,676 Speaker 3: We'll say, you know, I've noticed in our relationship. Cigarettes 589 00:31:33,716 --> 00:31:37,476 Speaker 3: have been a major stressor for our relationship. And then 590 00:31:37,516 --> 00:31:39,596 Speaker 3: your partner probably can't agree with that, you know, they 591 00:31:39,636 --> 00:31:42,156 Speaker 3: probably can say, yeah, that has been a challenge, not 592 00:31:42,196 --> 00:31:44,556 Speaker 3: just in this relationship but others I've had, or it's 593 00:31:44,556 --> 00:31:46,876 Speaker 3: something you know, I don't want to continue doing, but 594 00:31:46,956 --> 00:31:49,876 Speaker 3: I'm having a really hard time stopping. Now we're a 595 00:31:49,956 --> 00:31:53,276 Speaker 3: team tackling the issue of cigarettes, not me attacking you 596 00:31:53,516 --> 00:31:54,996 Speaker 3: for smoking. If that makes sense. 597 00:31:55,196 --> 00:31:57,596 Speaker 2: Oh, it totally makes sense. I mean, I think this 598 00:31:57,676 --> 00:32:00,076 Speaker 2: is long enough in the past that it's fine for 599 00:32:00,156 --> 00:32:03,596 Speaker 2: me to talk about. But like seven years ago now, 600 00:32:04,156 --> 00:32:05,916 Speaker 2: my wife and I had like a really big fight, 601 00:32:05,956 --> 00:32:07,796 Speaker 2: and I remember like going into the other room and 602 00:32:07,876 --> 00:32:11,876 Speaker 2: furiously typing on the like marriage and family counseling, how 603 00:32:11,916 --> 00:32:14,756 Speaker 2: to have a loving relationship, like fix my marriage now 604 00:32:14,796 --> 00:32:16,716 Speaker 2: dot com? And you know, I'm just like, this is 605 00:32:16,716 --> 00:32:19,156 Speaker 2: probably not the best way to like approach a loving 606 00:32:19,236 --> 00:32:21,956 Speaker 2: partnership is to be like angrily typing like how to 607 00:32:21,996 --> 00:32:25,276 Speaker 2: make love bigger, how to help relationship? Ah, you know, 608 00:32:25,356 --> 00:32:27,476 Speaker 2: like that's just like not the energy you want to 609 00:32:27,516 --> 00:32:30,956 Speaker 2: bring into like a productive counseling. And I just remember 610 00:32:31,476 --> 00:32:33,676 Speaker 2: like feeling like we do you need help. That is 611 00:32:33,676 --> 00:32:35,676 Speaker 2: how we're gonna do it, And and I know that 612 00:32:35,676 --> 00:32:38,236 Speaker 2: that's not the right way, but it does seem like 613 00:32:38,276 --> 00:32:40,596 Speaker 2: that's often how people end up in couples counseling, is 614 00:32:40,636 --> 00:32:42,996 Speaker 2: like in these low moments, in these really challenging moments. 615 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:46,436 Speaker 3: Yeah, I just think that as long as you can 616 00:32:46,436 --> 00:32:48,916 Speaker 3: reiterate to your partner, like I recognize that I also 617 00:32:49,036 --> 00:32:52,036 Speaker 3: play a big part in the issue that we're having. 618 00:32:52,236 --> 00:32:54,716 Speaker 3: I think there's a pattern playing out here. I'm not 619 00:32:54,756 --> 00:32:57,156 Speaker 3: smart enough to figure it out, and I'm struggling, and 620 00:32:57,156 --> 00:32:58,956 Speaker 3: I would like for us to get some help so 621 00:32:59,036 --> 00:33:03,036 Speaker 3: that it doesn't continue happening. Just communicating that, because when 622 00:33:03,076 --> 00:33:06,276 Speaker 3: your partner feels like they're about to be brought into 623 00:33:06,316 --> 00:33:10,036 Speaker 3: a situation where they're attacked because you found this counselor 624 00:33:10,276 --> 00:33:12,596 Speaker 3: and you updated them on all these issues you're having 625 00:33:12,636 --> 00:33:14,876 Speaker 3: with your partner, that is not an environment where they're 626 00:33:14,876 --> 00:33:17,876 Speaker 3: going to feel comfortable opening up enough and being vulnerable 627 00:33:17,956 --> 00:33:22,236 Speaker 3: enough to really identify the issue that's causing the problems 628 00:33:22,356 --> 00:33:26,476 Speaker 3: in your relationship. It requires so much trust and safety 629 00:33:26,516 --> 00:33:31,396 Speaker 3: and therapy, especially couples therapy, to really really find the issue. 630 00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:35,956 Speaker 3: Because we've developed a pattern of skirting around problems in 631 00:33:35,996 --> 00:33:39,796 Speaker 3: our relationships, and it takes a while to feel safe 632 00:33:39,876 --> 00:33:44,716 Speaker 3: enough to actually say the problem, or to actually show emotion, 633 00:33:44,916 --> 00:33:48,916 Speaker 3: or be comfortable with our partner showing emotion. The better 634 00:33:48,996 --> 00:33:52,756 Speaker 3: you can approach the idea of therapy, the more open 635 00:33:52,796 --> 00:33:55,796 Speaker 3: your partner will be coming into therapy, because if they 636 00:33:55,836 --> 00:33:57,716 Speaker 3: already come in feeling like they need to be as 637 00:33:57,756 --> 00:34:00,356 Speaker 3: defensive as they are in your arguments, it's going to 638 00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:02,116 Speaker 3: take us a while to get to where we need 639 00:34:02,156 --> 00:34:04,196 Speaker 3: to be so that we can make some real progress. 640 00:34:04,716 --> 00:34:08,356 Speaker 2: Do you view couples counseling and marriage and family therapy? 641 00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:10,836 Speaker 2: Is it more like like you have a house that 642 00:34:10,916 --> 00:34:13,516 Speaker 2: has a burst pipe and you don't know how to 643 00:34:13,516 --> 00:34:15,836 Speaker 2: fix the pipe, so you call a plumber in and 644 00:34:15,876 --> 00:34:18,596 Speaker 2: this plumber fixes the pipe and solves the problem. Or 645 00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:21,676 Speaker 2: is it more like you have an issue with the 646 00:34:21,756 --> 00:34:24,836 Speaker 2: landscaping and it gets fixed, but you're always going to 647 00:34:24,916 --> 00:34:27,676 Speaker 2: need to mow the lawn and trim the hedges and 648 00:34:27,876 --> 00:34:32,236 Speaker 2: rake the leaves. Is it like a discrete fix or 649 00:34:32,316 --> 00:34:34,356 Speaker 2: is it this ongoing thing that you can't really ever 650 00:34:34,436 --> 00:34:36,196 Speaker 2: be done with, because that's not how it works. 651 00:34:36,516 --> 00:34:39,356 Speaker 3: I love both of those metaphors and It depends on 652 00:34:39,396 --> 00:34:42,516 Speaker 3: the issue we're coming in about, right, So if we're 653 00:34:42,556 --> 00:34:45,836 Speaker 3: coming in about an issue really with one of these 654 00:34:45,876 --> 00:34:48,276 Speaker 3: out of the box solutions that we've been talking about, 655 00:34:48,436 --> 00:34:50,956 Speaker 3: Like if it really boils down to you're having a 656 00:34:50,956 --> 00:34:53,076 Speaker 3: hard time sleeping and you want to make sure that 657 00:34:53,476 --> 00:34:57,116 Speaker 3: your partner understands your intention in asking about sleeping in 658 00:34:57,156 --> 00:34:59,916 Speaker 3: separate rooms, and you guys are able to do that. 659 00:35:00,236 --> 00:35:02,716 Speaker 3: We get three months passed and you know, everything is 660 00:35:02,756 --> 00:35:06,796 Speaker 3: still going well. No one's feeling threatened, that issue has 661 00:35:06,836 --> 00:35:08,796 Speaker 3: been resolved, that is not really something we need to 662 00:35:08,836 --> 00:35:11,796 Speaker 3: contain and you being in therapy about. But if things 663 00:35:11,836 --> 00:35:14,356 Speaker 3: come up later, feel free to come back. You know, 664 00:35:14,396 --> 00:35:16,836 Speaker 3: if we're talking about something that's a trauma response, like 665 00:35:16,836 --> 00:35:19,036 Speaker 3: I have couples that might come to me where their 666 00:35:19,116 --> 00:35:22,836 Speaker 3: sex life is affected because one person has experienced sexual trauma. 667 00:35:23,156 --> 00:35:27,036 Speaker 3: Something has happened that has activated that trauma response for them, 668 00:35:27,076 --> 00:35:29,236 Speaker 3: and now they're not interested in sex. That's probably going 669 00:35:29,316 --> 00:35:31,596 Speaker 3: to take us a long time because you know, maybe 670 00:35:31,596 --> 00:35:34,236 Speaker 3: we've had a few moments where we've been able to 671 00:35:34,476 --> 00:35:37,436 Speaker 3: safely enjoy sex with each other, that doesn't necessarily mean 672 00:35:37,476 --> 00:35:40,516 Speaker 3: that that issue has been addressed. And I would go 673 00:35:40,556 --> 00:35:42,636 Speaker 3: further to say that that's a problem that probably be 674 00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:46,716 Speaker 3: better addressed in individual therapy. So couple's therapy might be 675 00:35:46,756 --> 00:35:49,436 Speaker 3: good for just helping your partner understand the root of 676 00:35:49,476 --> 00:35:52,236 Speaker 3: these issues and how you know they can safely touch 677 00:35:52,276 --> 00:35:54,676 Speaker 3: you and things like that, but as far as really 678 00:35:54,756 --> 00:35:57,596 Speaker 3: unpacking the impact of that trauma, that's probably going to 679 00:35:57,676 --> 00:36:02,436 Speaker 3: be best addressed in individual therapy. I always say, you know, 680 00:36:02,516 --> 00:36:05,236 Speaker 3: if we can, let's get everybody in individual therapy and 681 00:36:05,276 --> 00:36:08,876 Speaker 3: couple's therapy, and if we have to choose, if you 682 00:36:08,916 --> 00:36:13,276 Speaker 3: can afford all three, let's do the individual therapy, because 683 00:36:13,356 --> 00:36:17,556 Speaker 3: individual therapy I think can be more effective when we're 684 00:36:17,596 --> 00:36:23,236 Speaker 3: talking about those longstanding history related issues that are affecting 685 00:36:23,236 --> 00:36:27,236 Speaker 3: your relationship today. I have worked with people individually where 686 00:36:27,316 --> 00:36:30,316 Speaker 3: their relationship has improved just through individual therapy, and I've 687 00:36:30,316 --> 00:36:33,636 Speaker 3: never even met their partner, but because they've dealt with 688 00:36:33,676 --> 00:36:36,036 Speaker 3: the issues they were having with their own anger response 689 00:36:36,316 --> 00:36:38,436 Speaker 3: and things like that, their relationship has improved. 690 00:36:39,156 --> 00:36:42,156 Speaker 2: You break down a lot of relationship dynamics from popular 691 00:36:42,196 --> 00:36:45,596 Speaker 2: TV shows and movies on your YouTube and other work 692 00:36:45,596 --> 00:36:48,276 Speaker 2: that you've done. What do you think that you learn 693 00:36:48,756 --> 00:36:51,836 Speaker 2: from watching and analyzing those shows as opposed to the 694 00:36:51,876 --> 00:36:54,476 Speaker 2: real people who you're working with in your practice. 695 00:36:54,676 --> 00:36:57,556 Speaker 3: I love looking at the earliest seasons of these shows 696 00:36:57,556 --> 00:36:59,316 Speaker 3: before they really take off, you know. 697 00:36:59,516 --> 00:37:00,876 Speaker 2: Like reality dating shows. 698 00:37:01,076 --> 00:37:03,516 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, like Married at First I Love is 699 00:37:03,556 --> 00:37:07,996 Speaker 3: Blind because I'm genuinely invested in the people who looked 700 00:37:07,996 --> 00:37:10,596 Speaker 3: for love and could not find it any other way, 701 00:37:11,276 --> 00:37:13,796 Speaker 3: and they had to resort to something that's a little 702 00:37:13,796 --> 00:37:17,276 Speaker 3: out of their comfort zone, being on television, and you know, 703 00:37:17,316 --> 00:37:20,436 Speaker 3: really put themselves out there to find love. So you know, 704 00:37:20,516 --> 00:37:23,356 Speaker 3: there are some couples like bretton Tiffany from season four 705 00:37:23,436 --> 00:37:26,196 Speaker 3: of Love is Blind. I'll even say like Jamie and 706 00:37:26,236 --> 00:37:29,836 Speaker 3: Doug from season one of Married at First Sight, those 707 00:37:29,836 --> 00:37:34,036 Speaker 3: couples that really show you that if you allow yourself 708 00:37:34,316 --> 00:37:37,676 Speaker 3: to really be open, Like Jamie on Married at First Site, 709 00:37:37,716 --> 00:37:40,876 Speaker 3: she didn't even find Doug attractive at all, and she 710 00:37:40,996 --> 00:37:43,636 Speaker 3: made that clear. She was crying before she walked down 711 00:37:43,676 --> 00:37:46,396 Speaker 3: the island. Here they've been married now ten years later, 712 00:37:46,676 --> 00:37:50,756 Speaker 3: four kids, and you came on a reality TV show 713 00:37:50,876 --> 00:37:53,236 Speaker 3: and you were paired with someone that you didn't find attractive, 714 00:37:53,676 --> 00:37:57,796 Speaker 3: But ten years later you're still in a successful, happy 715 00:37:57,836 --> 00:38:00,996 Speaker 3: marriage because you were open to an experience very different 716 00:38:00,996 --> 00:38:04,196 Speaker 3: from what you want. Nowadays are just casting hot people 717 00:38:04,796 --> 00:38:09,956 Speaker 3: who anybody would be attracted to and who love to drama, 718 00:38:10,076 --> 00:38:12,156 Speaker 3: and it just makes it a lot harder sometimes to 719 00:38:12,156 --> 00:38:14,836 Speaker 3: pull out those lessons. But there are lessons to be 720 00:38:14,956 --> 00:38:17,996 Speaker 3: found for the couple, the people who are there and 721 00:38:18,036 --> 00:38:21,036 Speaker 3: really looking for something serious. So there's something you can 722 00:38:21,076 --> 00:38:24,116 Speaker 3: pull from from anything for relationships. And I have a 723 00:38:24,156 --> 00:38:26,516 Speaker 3: lot of fun doing it because unfortunately I can't just 724 00:38:26,556 --> 00:38:30,236 Speaker 3: sit back and watch things. I'm just doing the same 725 00:38:30,796 --> 00:38:34,876 Speaker 3: same thing, yeah, yeah, looking at pictures and like, are 726 00:38:34,876 --> 00:38:37,116 Speaker 3: they married? Is that their kid? Like, I can't just 727 00:38:37,156 --> 00:38:39,356 Speaker 3: watch it. I'm just dissecting everything. 728 00:38:39,916 --> 00:38:42,516 Speaker 2: That's amazing. Thank you so much. It was such a 729 00:38:42,516 --> 00:38:44,516 Speaker 2: pleasure talking to you. I really really, I can't thank 730 00:38:44,556 --> 00:38:45,516 Speaker 2: you enough for making the time. 731 00:38:45,836 --> 00:38:48,116 Speaker 3: This was amazing. I love this. I can't wait for 732 00:38:48,156 --> 00:38:50,436 Speaker 3: it to come out, and I can't wait to see 733 00:38:50,556 --> 00:38:53,836 Speaker 3: the other episodes because you actually have me walking away 734 00:38:53,836 --> 00:38:56,956 Speaker 3: from this with so many great examples and metaphors, and 735 00:38:56,996 --> 00:39:00,036 Speaker 3: I really appreciate it because I'm using examples and metaphors 736 00:39:00,076 --> 00:39:01,116 Speaker 3: every day with clients, and. 737 00:39:01,676 --> 00:39:04,276 Speaker 2: Well, please steal, steal it all. It's all it's yours now. 738 00:39:05,436 --> 00:39:10,836 Speaker 2: That's so nice. I really appreciate that. That is it 739 00:39:10,916 --> 00:39:12,636 Speaker 2: for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. 740 00:39:12,676 --> 00:39:15,836 Speaker 2: Thank you so much to today's guest Stephanie Yates Anya Buiele. 741 00:39:16,316 --> 00:39:18,996 Speaker 2: You can find more from her on YouTube, social media 742 00:39:19,156 --> 00:39:22,036 Speaker 2: or at what's onya mind dot com. That's what and 743 00:39:22,076 --> 00:39:27,556 Speaker 2: then the name anya a nyamind dot com. I'm your host, 744 00:39:27,636 --> 00:39:29,836 Speaker 2: Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including 745 00:39:29,876 --> 00:39:33,916 Speaker 2: my weekly newsletter and other projects at Chris Duffieomedy dot com. 746 00:39:33,996 --> 00:39:35,676 Speaker 2: How to Be a Better Human is put together by 747 00:39:35,716 --> 00:39:37,796 Speaker 2: a team who all sleep in tiny, separate beds and 748 00:39:37,836 --> 00:39:40,156 Speaker 2: a large room together each night. On the ted side, 749 00:39:40,156 --> 00:39:43,276 Speaker 2: we've got Daniella bellarezoh Ban Bean Cheng, Chloe Shasha Brooks, 750 00:39:43,316 --> 00:39:46,756 Speaker 2: Valentina Bohanini, Laney Lot, Antonio Lay, and Joseph de Brin. 751 00:39:47,156 --> 00:39:50,436 Speaker 2: This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Mattea Salas, 752 00:39:50,476 --> 00:39:52,956 Speaker 2: whose deepest and most powerful love is for the truth. 753 00:39:53,396 --> 00:39:56,236 Speaker 2: On the PRX site, they are throwing out all expectations 754 00:39:56,276 --> 00:39:59,476 Speaker 2: and building a more beautiful audio relationship from the ground up. 755 00:39:59,676 --> 00:40:02,956 Speaker 2: I'm talking about Morgan Flannery, nor gil Patrick Grant and 756 00:40:03,036 --> 00:40:06,996 Speaker 2: Jocelyn Gonzalez Thanks again to you for listening. Thank you 757 00:40:07,076 --> 00:40:09,596 Speaker 2: for being in this audio relationship here with us. Please 758 00:40:09,716 --> 00:40:11,996 Speaker 2: share this episode with a friend or a family member, 759 00:40:12,036 --> 00:40:14,236 Speaker 2: with someone who you love and you think would enjoy. 760 00:40:14,236 --> 00:40:16,796 Speaker 2: It is the number one way that we reach new listeners. 761 00:40:17,196 --> 00:40:19,556 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you. We will be back 762 00:40:19,596 --> 00:40:21,556 Speaker 2: next week with more how to be a Better Human. 763 00:40:21,716 --> 00:40:24,436 Speaker 2: Until then, take care and thanks again for listening. 764 00:40:33,276 --> 00:40:35,276 Speaker 1: That was how to Be a Better Human from Ted. 765 00:40:35,556 --> 00:40:37,996 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed the episode. If there's a show 766 00:40:38,036 --> 00:40:41,356 Speaker 1: you love, email us at slight Change at Pushkin dot 767 00:40:41,476 --> 00:40:44,756 Speaker 1: fm and we'll consider featuring it in the slight Change 768 00:40:44,756 --> 00:40:47,556 Speaker 1: feed at some point this year. We'll be back in 769 00:40:47,556 --> 00:40:50,356 Speaker 1: a week with another episode of a slight Change of plans. 770 00:40:50,556 --> 00:40:51,276 Speaker 1: I'll see you soon.