WEBVTT - SOCIAL MEDIA ECHO CHAMBERS w/ Vernon Coleman 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:03.640 I'm Will Lucas and this is black tat Green Money. 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:08.119 Vernon Common is a co founder and CEO at click app, 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.480 formerly known as Real Time, which is a more intimate 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:16.280 social network which also emphasizes human I r L interactivity. 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:19.600 He's one of the youngest black entrepreneurs to raise VC funding, 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.119 and he's got technologist like Alexis o hand In and 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:25.759 Sam Alman on his cap table. In a world of 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:29.000 TikTok Ig and Facebook, I wonder if there's room for 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:32.600 another social media app. What did Vernon c missing in 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.640 the marketplace that made him say, you know what I'm 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:39.200 going in for us? I think it's about allowing people 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:42.360 to be able to do three things. One is silenced 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:44.400 the noise increased the signal. I think in the world 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:47.800 where you have Facebook, Twitter, TikTok like all these platforms 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.040 have a lot going on and a lot of content, 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:54.480 and so almost there's almost a lack of mindfulness, right. 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:56.480 That's why we have this term called doom scrolling where 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.720 it's just always on, right, So that's one. The second 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:03.640 I think think is about allowing people to reduce their 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.040 curation and increase their rate of connection. So I think 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:12.600 that on all these platforms, besides having and inundated and content, 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.880 that content is also heavily curated and curated in a 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:18.280 way where people are showing their best sells or their 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.800 perfect selves. And I think that also, you know, has 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.480 some negative psychological effects on how you're thinking about and 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.240 perceiving your own life, especially for gen Z where where 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:32.240 we've kind of come into an age of hypercuration. And 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:35.960 then I think the third is is really about essentially 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:39.440 the pressure that we face on these platforms to not 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:43.039 just curate our best selves but also constantly perform right. 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:44.520 And so a lot of these plays, a lot of 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:48.120 these platforms have followings, which is another word for audience, 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:50.360 and any time you get on stage and you're in 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:52.800 front of audience, you to the fuel they need to perform. 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:55.680 We even saw that with like Clubhouse back in the day, right, 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:57.600 like you would go up on stage and then people 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:01.600 will put their corporate voice on because there's an audience there. Um. 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.160 And so you know, we've we've really been focused around 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:09.280 buildion products that allow people to to increase their their 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:13.280 rate of connection, reduce curation, and have more peace um. 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:17.280 And so you know, we've built we've built one product 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.400 where actually been testing another product that I think is 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.760 doing a lot better in the in regards to a 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:28.360 new new way for people to to use social media. 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:30.399 And so, you know, I don't know how old job, 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:32.480 but I don't know if you remember Path, it was 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.280 an app about ten years ago or so. I loved Path, 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.400 and perhaps it was ten years before its time, you know. 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:46.000 And what makes what's different today that makes a private 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:50.280 or more curated social experience viable that didn't exist when 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.799 Path was making you run at it? I think there's 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:56.520 a couple things, right, Because it's like Path, Path, if 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.200 I remember correctly, they limited the social graph by one 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:01.160 hundred and fifty, right, And I think that was just 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.240 based off of some of the data that Machom glad 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:06.600 Well talked about in Tipping Point. Right after one hundred 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.000 and fifty people, an organization, doesn't, you know, it loses 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.720 it's it's a rate of connectivity amongst amongst different different 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:17.639 members of that org. And I think Path I was 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.959 actually reading about this a couple weeks ago. I think 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:22.520 one issue that it had was that people actually want 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.880 to constantly expand their social graph. And so because a 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:28.960 lot of these games, a lot of these these products 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.040 are based around gaming mechanics. So when I started in 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:34.040 my career, I was building in iOS and android games 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.640 in high school. I've always been a heavy gamer, and like, 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.480 when you study game mechanics, right, it's about like, uh, 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.240 for social media, it's about increasing status as a point 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.080 as opposed to like your your your points or whatever, right, 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:50.040 and so status Unfortunately, you want to create an endless 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.640 status game. Facebook did that well, Instagram did that well, 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.080 TikTok's doing it well now. But when it come came 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.880 to something like Path right one hundred, maxing your your 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.280 cap out one hundred and fifty people seemed great, but 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.560 the ideas once you you know, essentially everybody can max 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.560 out their social status game. So that was one issue 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:08.960 with it as as it was back then. But I 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:12.000 think today we live in an age where path came 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.200 about before Instagram was really blowing up. I mean, Instagram 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.799 was its thing, but it wasn't a billion users, basically 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.560 hadn't even started yet, which evolved in a TikTok, and 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.080 Snapchat was nascent at best, if it was if it 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.400 was even out. And so I think that what's happened 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:32.880 is that gen Z one crazy more authenticity. And I 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.160 think that because we've been inundated and grown up with 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:39.760 the Instagram and gone to snapchat and gone to TikTok, 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.480 which I think our indicators are more authentic forms of expression. 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:45.680 Even if they are a little bit performative, it's still 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:50.200 a more authentic form of expression. What I think has 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.600 happened there is that you now get to a world 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:54.640 where we're in a data with notifications, in a data 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.560 with content, and we want a little less, but we 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.160 still want to express. So you get a ride of 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.880 something like be real, right, where it's like, hey, you 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.640 know what, it's just gonna be one shitty photo of 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.080 a day. Really that's the intention, right, It's like, this 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:11.240 is not high quality content. So snapchot was always a 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.640 low quality content platform, but when you're constantly inundated with 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.479 like constantly having a snap, caring about the view count instead, 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.039 let's just shift this back to I think we're seeing 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:24.640 a rise of close friends apps because we've essentially we've 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:26.880 we've been playing these status games for a long time, 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:31.840 but now the status games have lost their their their appeal, right, 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:33.920 every game, video games have a half life, and I 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:37.120 think social networks the half life is really about seven 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:38.920 to ten years. I think we're just tired of playing 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:41.400 the game where you know, I might become the world's 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:46.800 next Instagram model or the top you know, top TikToker 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.200 or whatever. So those those kind of my my stream 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:54.200 of conscious around path and and today's networks. Yeah, and 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:56.440 you did bring up that, you know, there is some 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:02.080 sort of performative mechanism that today social media offerings rely on. 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:06.039 And even with that that, you know, there's so much 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:11.160 of our content that revolves around dancing and imitation and etc. 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:14.279 And this is an opportunity to even talk about how 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.479 your product works because this is still unlimited beta for 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:19.680 a lot of folks, and so a lot of people 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.080 don't have access to it. But how do you imagine 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.920 this might evolve having that performative style that we have, 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:27.480 a matter of fact, I want to I want to 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.080 act this in there. Also. I remember it was one 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.760 of the founders of Twitter who talked about I don't 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:34.200 remember it was Ev Williams. As a matter of fact, 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.880 it was Ev Williams who had put out a comment 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.359 about how to grow products and he was like, if 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:42.760 you're trying to get people to change what they do, 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.560 you have a very hard time in success and trying 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:47.400 to find success in business. But if you make it 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:49.800 easier to do what they already want to do and 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.400 what they already do, then you'll find an easier path 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:56.679 to success. So, because we're getting further in further along 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:01.479 the road of performance and you know, trying to find 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.560 good angles, even on TikTok and snapchat, you're still looking 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.200 for the right light, right, And so, um, how do 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.640 you imagine this might evolve inside of a more curated 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:15.800 private network? Oh yeah, so I think this is this 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:20.600 is interesting because um, we've over the last couple of years, 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:24.240 we've been building um, different products around the idea of 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:28.120 how do you connect people in a more meaningful way. So, like, uh, 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:32.080 with what we had recently built click was video chat 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:34.800 communities and being able to meet and interact with people 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.320 based on your interest graphs. Right. So if I want 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.560 to meet other black founders at a raised ventric capital, right, 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:42.480 I don't need to be in San Francisco or New 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.200 York or London or whatever. I can be in South 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:47.600 Carolina and still be able to interact with these people. 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.400 And the thesis was that that that that increasing the 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:56.320 level of connection right, Actually one, because it's in synchronous, 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:58.240 people are going to be more of their real selves. 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:03.120 But two of these rooms are less than six people each, right, 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:05.800 and so there's less of an audience or a rate 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.680 of performance, and in theory, right, like people will just 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.160 use it to talk. Unfortunately, what we've recently realized is 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.440 that this is not back to what you're saying about, 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.760 Evan Williams, this is not what people at least adults. 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.080 Teenagers and other markets might be a completely different thing, 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.239 but when it comes to adults, right, what we found 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:27.800 was like it was cool. People enjoyed the experience of 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.200 being on to meet somebody knew that they wouldn't ordinarily 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.240 met or catch up with people that they don't ordinarily 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:35.000 fee on clip. But the reality is it's like this 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.480 is not something they're already actively doing to stay connected 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.719 with people. Right, Like we thought about, you know, how 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:45.000 do we change fundamentally how community works on the Internet 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.240 all of its asynchronous. We thought synchronous might work, but 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.920 there's so many in a world where we're constantly moving 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.040 and a world where we have constant inundated of content 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.480 and other things that we could do. It's just easier 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.440 to stay connected on Discord. It's easier to stay connected 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.160 on Twitter, it's easier stay connected on Instagram, be Real, 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:07.199 et cetera. And so I think that Discord is like 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.440 the hardest app to use by the ways. Yeah, I agree, 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.839 I agree, I agree, I agree. Um, but it's it's 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:15.400 one of those things where it's like, you know, if 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:17.559 the only way you were able to connect with people 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:19.680 was like you had to get on a real time 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.160 video call with them, right, all of a sudden, it's like, 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.040 use the product once a week. It's not been into 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:26.560 your life. And so I think for us, what we 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:29.199 had actually we had done different experiments and we actually 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:31.760 came up with this new product called jot uh. And 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.680 what jot is it's literally, I think be real meets 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.520 ig notes, So you can post once a day. It's 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:42.440 only text based content. You can post to your friends. 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:44.880 It's friends first, and you could post publicly if you 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:49.040 would like, right, And so like what we're seeing, um like, uh, 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.760 people are one loving that, But that this aspect where 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.959 we realize that like people already express themselves through text. 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:58.640 Gen Z does not use Twitter for the most part, 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:02.720 bespides like this all subset of tech gen Z, and 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:05.360 people are looking for a way to express themselves stay 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:07.400 in touch with their friends that might not be as 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.280 performative as putting the camera in front of my face, 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.400 but just taking a thought out of my head and 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.280 putting it into the world in a much more simpler manner. 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.199 And so I think there's tremendous opportunity in the text 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:22.640 medium for this kind of once a day app products. 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.120 And I think it's more like anything with social media. 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.560 It's very ze guy store, right, and I think the 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.720 zeitgeis wants to use their phones a little bit less. 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:32.640 They want to get out what they're saying, they don't 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:34.439 want to carrate themselves too much, and they don't want 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.200 to worry about a timeline following them five years later. 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.200 So that's kind of my thoughts around that. Yeah, as 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.640 you brought up a term that I want to recall, 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.080 this idea of the interest graph versus the social graph, 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:51.440 and more and more social apps are moving to the 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.640 interest graph that you know, the fyp page for you page, 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.720 and I wonder your thoughts on the implications of moving 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:03.840 to the interest graph. We have had long conversations about 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.640 connectivity and staying connected with people that you know love 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.280 and friends that you're into high school with and etcetera, etc. 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.360 And I want to have that conversation about the interest 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:17.200 graph because in a world where you can go down 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.520 a rabbit hole on any conversation or any topic, the 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.400 interest graph and not to be provocative, but the interest 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:28.880 graph reverberates that it makes that even more an issue. 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.840 And so what are your thoughts on how we manage 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.640 as a society, again, not to be provocative, but how 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.240 we manage as a society the implications of the interest 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:43.199 graph versus the social graph. Yeah, that's a great question. 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.880 It's tough, right, because I think that when it comes 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.439 to we live in an age where information is completely 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:53.160 accessible and therefore we're constantly able to expound our interests, 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.160 change our interests. But a lot of interest graph networks 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.600 are very much echo chambery, right, So it's not really 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:03.600 about who Will is today, it's showing you who will 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.840 was a month ago, a year ago, whatever, Right, Whatever, 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:10.199 whatever loop you got into is usually the content it 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.600 continues to show you, which is cool in some sense 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:17.080 because like you've self curated your algorithm, But in another sense, 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.480 it's like human beings grow evolved, and change, except we 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:22.959 don't want to, especially when it comes to consuming content 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.800 or or being social on the internet. We don't want 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.320 to do too much work. Right, Like if if they're asking, 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:30.440 you know, you to go and say, hey, now go 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.319 reselect your interests, go relook at all these different videos, 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:35.320 like you're kind of like, now, it's easier to just 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.520 kind of stay in that, in that in that loop. 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:42.520 And I think that it's hard because we create connectivity 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.320 as human beings, and I think we get it out. 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:47.440 You know, when when I was younger and playing like 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.760 Call of Duty or or Tighten Far or whatever, right, 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.320 we hop on Xbox Live or PlayStation Network with my 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.440 friends and that's how we stay connected. But as I 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:58.719 got older, right, it's like you kind of just I 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:00.760 just see what's going on on Stagram, I see what's 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.240 going on Twitter, and these things are evolving from my 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.480 friends and now what they have going on to just 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.120 this interest graph. And you combine that with AI, you 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:12.080 combine that with deep fakes, and I'm really really good 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.480 at being able to show you, you know, exactly what 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.000 might be of interest but also skew you towards a 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:22.320 more radicalized approach or whatever it is that you're into, right, 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:28.760 And so I think it's I think I think the 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.560 world needs both because I think it's it's good to 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:33.560 have a place where you can just explore your interests 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.000 and see what's going on in the world, or see 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.280 what's going on within your interest segment or what people 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.800 what thought leaders are people who think about whatever your 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.640 interest is are doing. But I think it's also we 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.800 can't lose this ability to stay connected with our friends 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:51.920 and feel that true sense of connection because I think, 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.280 you know, we're basically an error where it's hard to 0:13:54.320 --> 0:14:00.320 separate what's on TV from from you know, who's outside. Essentially, right, 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.320 TV used to be the quote unquote interest graph. It 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.400 used to be the place where we consume content, and 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.080 outside was where we saw our friends and spend time. 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:11.160 But now those worlds are kind of getting a little 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.840 bit too blended, right, And so that's why you might 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:19.120 see your friends, like on Instagram constantly posting content as 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.600 a way to cry to an interest graph as opposed 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.120 to connecting with you as a human being. So, I 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:25.760 don't know, I think it's important for us to keep 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.640 a balance. I think we can need it inso a society, 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:33.280 But it's it's gonna be tough, especially when you start 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:39.440 adding adding the fact that byte dances, you know, essentially 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.280 a Chinese sponsor government product in terms of one of 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:47.040 the largest interstgraph products in the market today. I hear 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:48.920 that the algorithm that works in China is not the 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.560 algorithm we get. Yeah, that's that's I've heard that too. 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.200 I've heard that, I've heard different things. I've heard that 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.280 before you know when you're a teenager. When you're a teenager, 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.120 so I think before sixteen or fourteen, a lot of 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:04.720 the contents focus on educational self improvement, self empowerment, different 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.920 things that get people's minds and particularly teenagers' minds to 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:13.880 think about creating and building in and purpose. Where it's 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.600 in America, it's the algorithm. Teams are often showed it's 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.400 more about dancing having fun, which is all fine and dandy, 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.560 but the issue is what you then create, right. There's 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:28.240 been multiple studies around this is that gen Z younger 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:32.960 gen Z as well as the Alpha's the generation after 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.280 gen Z, they're top things that they want to be 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.360 as a content creator, but it's not the content that 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.600 these people want to create are not widely built around 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.800 purpose or things that actually help help you as an adult. 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:50.720 It's more about status or more about you know, having 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.840 the most amount of eyeballs, rather it's doing something outrageous whatever, 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.320 And so I think that's a whole different problem instead 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:03.600 of policy that hopefully will get either some heavy regulation 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.680 or figure out how to how to how to have 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:11.880 just as much control of such a widely used platform 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.880 here in the States. So it's it's interesting with what 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:18.320 you just brought up. So I imagine five, ten, fifteen 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.200 years ago, when when social media companies were being built, 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.640 they could just build software and build tech and put 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:25.760 it out in the world. But what I'm hearing you 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.720 say and correct me if I'm wrong, is that when 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.160 you're building social media tech today, you've got to be 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:35.760 thinking about implications and regulatory things and what it does 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.760 to society. And you can't just build tech for tech 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.080 sake or just tech for fun, but you got to 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.960 think about so many other things. Yeah, this is this 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:49.840 is interesting because I think when early early on as 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:53.920 a builder, I have always approached building products as an 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:56.920 as an artist, and so I think that's what you 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.360 needed to consumer social products to get anything good out 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:04.000 of it, Because I do believe fundamentally consumer, especially the 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:08.000 ones that strike it's very much with the zeitgeist, and 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.320 it's very much in the moment and in the times. 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.400 And I think that when you approach it as an artist, 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.639 you're very good at capturing the energy that's in the 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.520 ether right now and funneling it into something that people 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:21.840 can now you know, millions, if not billions of people 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:23.960 can now use to express. And so I think it 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.920 starts off as fun, right like our product JOT started 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.640 off as I woke up December twenty third and I said, hey, 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:32.840 I called some of our engineers and I said, I 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.719 want to do something around text based expression. Here's how 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.679 we're going to do it. Design the mechanics in a 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:42.000 day and just started going right. But I think that 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.200 as you start to you can't just put it out 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:50.240 into the world and start growing as fast as possible 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.960 without taking at least some time, which is what we've 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:57.760 been doing in a beta testing phase, in a trunch 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.080 growth phase where maybe you're you know, you vote in 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.199 it to the public, but you're you know, you're not 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:04.720 letting it get to millions of users. You're actually constraining 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:06.760 the growth because you're trying to trying to be mindful 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.680 of the dynamics and the certain certain ways and with 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.399 certain mechanics that you designed and product can have an 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:17.040 implication that's on society. But it's it's it's one of 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:18.840 those things where I think you have to start off 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.600 as fun, but you have to be mindful once you 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:26.840 start creating something that people actually want to play, right, um, 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:31.280 and in thinking about how you how how that, how 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.879 you can how those because each platform, right, there's different 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.280 phases in which you have to think about different things. 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.640 We don't have to worry about modification of elections out 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.600 one hundred thousand or even a million users, right Like 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:46.800 you don't need to really worry about that, Like you 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.679 might hurt your brain thinking too much. But as you know, 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.080 ten million, one hundred million users, it might be good 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.360 to think about that. So there's you know, I think 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:59.600 it's also a timing thing, but it's it's a it's 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.840 definitely an important thing to be thinking about that and 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:07.920 so many other things around social and there's a lot. Yeah, 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:12.159 And so I'm curious on your perspective on how the 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:16.679 economic needs of a business dictate things that people may 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.959 appreciate about the product. And so the example I'll give is, 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:25.320 you know organic timelines versus you know, egalitarian timelines, and 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:29.280 you know, but the ones that are driven by economic incentives. 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.440 But you run in a business, right and while you 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:35.920 may have a crowd of people who shake their fists 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:39.280 because their timeline is no longer in order by you know, 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:43.200 actual congruent like you know actual and you know the clock, 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.840 there's an economic incentive to do it a different way. 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.760 And so not necessarily with that particular instance, but how 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:55.080 do you balance what might have been cool, might have 0:19:55.200 --> 0:20:00.280 been a feature, but a need to drive economy mix 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.760 because it's still a business and if you're not paying 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:08.720 for it, you're the product. Yeah, so this is this 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.040 is I have a couple of thoughts here, and I 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:15.280 think it's when it's very platform dependent and what that 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:21.760 platform actually offers people. But I fundamentally believe that the biggest, 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:24.439 one of the best things that could have happened and 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.200 the worst thing that could have happened in the early 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:30.840 parts of the app Store, when apps started just becoming 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.480 a thing, the best thing and the worst thing was 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:38.080 everybody started expecting products for free. So as a builder, 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:42.480 as a business owner, right, we can put hundreds of thousands, 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:49.480 millions of dollars into development. People might not use the product, right, 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:52.400 people might use the product, I don't know, but guess what, 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:54.800 Rather they use it or they don't use it. Everybody 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:59.080 expects it for free, and unfortunately, right the millions of 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.920 dollars needs to be you know, recouped in some form 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.600 or fashion. And so I think what's happened is that 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:08.879 because people we go on the free route and we 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:12.600 see what companies have to do to monetize free based platforms, 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:17.440 and I think people are more and more not liking that, right. 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.480 And I think that on top of that, people are 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:25.200 just are also just willing to pay for things. If 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:31.080 the value proposition is clear or you you you you yeah, 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.359 I think it's the value proposition is clear, people are 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:35.560 willing to pay for things. And so I think, you know, 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:37.520 there was one point I thought about putting an app 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:39.520 out in the app store for three hundred dollars. Initially, 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:46.320 I think that people should be or builders companies. If 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.280 they build something that people actually love, you can charge 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:51.320 money for in the app store. You can charge money 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.960