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Speaker 1: Worrying.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode contains spoilers for the finale of Foundation season three.

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Speaker 3: You are.

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Speaker 2: Hello. My name is Jason Cepcio and I'm Rosey Night

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Speaker 2: and welcome back to xt revision of the podcast where

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Speaker 2: we dive deep. It's your favorite shows, movies, comics, and

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Speaker 2: pop culture coming.

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Speaker 1: To you from My Heart Podcast.

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Speaker 2: We're bringing three episodes, Weekless News.

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Speaker 3: On Sunday, Weekless News on today's episode you've been waiting for.

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Speaker 4: It is the finale of Foundation season three. Did they

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Speaker 4: stick the landing? What happens? We are going to recap it,

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Speaker 4: and then in a very.

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Speaker 3: Special interview for the finale, Abou and Jason will be

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Speaker 3: joined by David S. Gooya, a man behind many of

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Speaker 3: your favorite superhero movies and now behind Foundation, to really

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Speaker 3: break down the finale and what.

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Speaker 4: It means for the show going forward. But first we

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Speaker 4: got to recap it.

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Speaker 1: First.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the program, a Boo who's been helping us

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Speaker 2: all season unwind the mysteries of Foundation.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's brother Darkness now. Actually, so if we can.

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Speaker 2: Brother Darkness, I'm glad you got that. We open on Trantur,

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Speaker 2: where Dusk is looking out over the palace and the balcony.

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Speaker 2: It's ascension day. He goes down to the decanting tanks,

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Speaker 2: takes a look at his replacements and all the countless

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Speaker 2: vats of clones and Lock's eyes with one particular baby clone,

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Speaker 2: and he moves on. Later, he's getting dressed by his

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Speaker 2: attendants and the regal ascension robes are being put on him,

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Speaker 2: and the Royal Tailor's leg I gotta tell you, Dusk,

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Speaker 2: you're slimmering in the average. Usually they kind of they

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Speaker 2: tend to blow up a little bit, but you've really

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Speaker 2: been taking care of yourself.

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Speaker 4: And he's having that pelothon, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then he's like, hey, guys, is it okay

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Speaker 2: if I walk to the ascension chambers on my own?

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Speaker 2: You know, just have have this moment of privacy, this

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Speaker 2: final moment of privacy on my own. And they're like, Empire,

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Speaker 2: you got it, you got it.

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Speaker 3: This man, come on, this guy is just yes, sending

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Speaker 3: like I would have sent at least one little spy

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Speaker 3: after him.

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Speaker 2: Well, he convinces him. Meanwhile, Day has gotten into the

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Speaker 2: palace with the robot head. He finds De Marcel. He

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Speaker 2: kneels before her. He's like, listen, I've just come from Micagen.

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Speaker 2: They worship you down there, and.

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Speaker 1: Look at this.

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Speaker 2: They have this authentic robot head. Demrsel is like overcome

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Speaker 2: with emotion and she sees this, we got a new terminus.

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Speaker 2: Gail is meditating before the epic battle come and says,

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Speaker 2: with the mule, and she's thinking about everybody she's lost

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Speaker 2: over time. Meanwhile, Pritch Torn the rest of the team

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Speaker 2: are like getting there, you know, racking that they're guns

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Speaker 2: and like putting the clips in the in the magasine

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Speaker 2: and it's time to strike at the Gale and Pritch

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Speaker 2: say they're goodbyes, and the team gets ready to move

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Speaker 2: move on with Hollow Harry asking Spoon, which is a

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Speaker 2: reference to how they're gonna use the vault, and the

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Speaker 2: vault takes off. The Mule meanwhile, knows everybody's coming. Harry

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Speaker 2: appears in the Black Tongue as a distraction so that

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Speaker 2: they can immediately, you know, start running around on board.

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Speaker 2: Everybody's shooting at Hologram Harry. They're shooting at them for

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Speaker 2: like a minute, nothing is happening. Why do they keep

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Speaker 2: shooting because of the mentallic powers, and the mentallic powers

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Speaker 2: are also hiding Gale and her team and they go,

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Speaker 2: you know, through the through the black tongue with Pritch

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Speaker 2: sneaking off to go be a hero, I guess, to

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Speaker 2: go quote save who we can, which you know, I

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Speaker 2: guess probably means Beta Pritch, we should mention other than

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Speaker 2: being hot, this guy.

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Speaker 4: Is a fucking hot because hot baby.

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Speaker 1: The ultimate Himbo Pritch.

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Speaker 2: Who is no good at the incredible every time, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because he's fucking the bass. So Beta hears people running

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Speaker 2: around and she's like, I think the ship is under attack.

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Speaker 2: She gets the door open, red flag number one. It

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Speaker 2: turns out a red flag number number five. That or

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Speaker 2: the first one that we've noticed, I guess, and she

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Speaker 2: tries to get Day up on his don excuse me,

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Speaker 2: up on his feet, but his legs are too messed

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Speaker 2: up and he can't go. He's like, you get out

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Speaker 2: of here, run run, run back to Trantor De Marzelle

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Speaker 2: takes the Head and Days like, listen, if the if

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Speaker 2: the Cleons fall, will you still help us? And she

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Speaker 2: says yeah, my programming, I have to, and Days like

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Speaker 2: you gotta interface.

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Speaker 1: With the head, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, and.

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Speaker 2: Demares is like, well, I don't know, because if I

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Speaker 2: interface with the head, it might erase my kleonic programming,

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Speaker 2: and I have to resist anything that will interfere with

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Speaker 2: my programming consciously at least. So days like, okay, we'll

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Speaker 2: show me. And so he begins to like do little

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Speaker 2: little manipulations inside the head with the with the knitting

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Speaker 2: needles that Demarzelle has. Dusk arrives back to the Vats.

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Speaker 1: He's like escaped.

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Speaker 3: Anybody watching, nobody, and they just believe they were like

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Speaker 3: kill at the empire, like we'll just.

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Speaker 6: The most powerful and important in the galaxy.

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Speaker 1: They lost track of him.

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Speaker 2: He's like down there, he's out of breath.

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Speaker 4: Everyone.

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Speaker 2: Demarzelle, meanwhile, is like having an inkling that I think

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Speaker 2: something bad is like happening down the Vats. I gotta

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Speaker 2: go down there. And days like, well, well, I'm in

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Speaker 2: the middle of this interfeasing with the head thing, like

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Speaker 2: you gotta at least help me finish that.

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Speaker 1: She's like, I can't.

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Speaker 2: My programming says if something's going on in the Vat, I.

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Speaker 1: Go down there. What what's going on down there?

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Speaker 2: Is? Dusk is blowing up all the cleons except the

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Speaker 2: baby my guy, Like what what you think.

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Speaker 7: Did explosives first, So he wants you know, much like yeah,

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Speaker 7: much like nine to eleven was an inside job and

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Speaker 7: the and the buildings and the buildings were actually pre

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Speaker 7: implanted with explosives.

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Speaker 2: Flame here, I guess this is like while he was

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Speaker 2: doing the navicular, he was also putting a little side

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Speaker 2: project personally, because you can't have anybody else made this right.

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Speaker 2: He had to personally put the C four on all them.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you know what I'm not I'm not necessarily saying

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Speaker 3: that what he's doing is right. But is he making

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Speaker 3: an argument that perhaps he is very useful. This man

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Speaker 3: has done a lot this season while he's just chilling

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Speaker 3: to then to go in.

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Speaker 2: He's tried, he's tried to make that argument. Nobody's listened

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Speaker 2: to him, and so now he's gonna make it a

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Speaker 2: fair Yeah, you can't do so he's blowing up all the.

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Speaker 1: Tanks, but he's trying. Can'ts the baby.

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Speaker 2: Den Marzelle rushes down there. Ambassador Quinn is like, what

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Speaker 2: the fuck's going on? Denmarzl demos like like Demarzelle tells

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Speaker 2: her listen, bad ship's going on.

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Speaker 5: Go to my room.

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Speaker 2: There's a triangular book like in a little satin bag.

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Speaker 2: Go get it, Go to the library, show the library

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Speaker 2: in the book, She'll know what to do. Okay, goodbye,

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Speaker 2: demosel and Day get down to the vats.

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Speaker 1: It's so disgusting.

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Speaker 8: One of the.

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Speaker 2: Grossest things I was in a show, reason a big

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Speaker 2: one that I wanted to pull, like a thread I

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Speaker 2: wanted to pull with you guys, because like, I feel like.

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Speaker 3: It's tonally is like a new tone, like I was

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Speaker 3: not existing it.

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Speaker 4: Dear discuss like that was just they gross.

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Speaker 3: We're saving that one for the finale. Baby like got

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Speaker 3: ready to be horrified.

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Speaker 5: It was.

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Speaker 2: It was fucking horrified. So they Demoselle is like talking

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Speaker 2: to herself. Days with her, and he's like, oh, She's like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, there's too many things going on right

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Speaker 2: now to.

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Speaker 1: Keep track of.

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Speaker 2: Meanwhile, up above Pretch, up above New Terminus, Preach finds Beta.

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Speaker 2: He tells her that hey, good news to warn is alive.

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Speaker 2: But then he's like.

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Speaker 1: The mule, Oh my god, the mule is close and

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Speaker 1: he falls to his knees and then the power turns off.

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Speaker 4: Uh uh don don.

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Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Gail and the crew are trying to get past

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Speaker 2: the blast doors to get at the mule Ebling misses like,

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Speaker 2: I know how we can heck in the door. He

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Speaker 2: figures it out, they get in there, mentallic fight takes place.

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Speaker 2: The Mule tries to get Gail to like mentallic kill herself,

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Speaker 2: but he's like doing it with his powers, so he

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Speaker 2: but he's really not able to do it, so he

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Speaker 2: starts strangling her, but the lack of oxygen triggers the

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Speaker 2: gale like you know, boss level powers, and she manages

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Speaker 2: to pull him into the mind hut, the water hunt,

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Speaker 2: and in the water hut she kills him and it's

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Speaker 2: all over, folks. Good guys won.

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Speaker 4: The mules definitely everything.

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Speaker 3: It's okay have been killed, like at least the mule

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Speaker 3: is that.

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Speaker 4: It was definitely nothing bad could happen.

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Speaker 2: But then Gail Feats is like, wait a second, I

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Speaker 2: still fuel the mule and the mule is Beta.

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Speaker 4: The fuck.

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Speaker 2: An unreal shocking moment that looking back, there were many

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Speaker 2: many clues that he didn't.

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Speaker 3: She is always there when the Mule is always there,

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Speaker 3: but they did. She's always their good job of hiding

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Speaker 3: in plain sight and a boom. This is not more

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Speaker 3: on this book.

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Speaker 6: Ca right, no, no, yeah, yeah, okay, more on this

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Speaker 6: with in our excellent conversation with David Esquier, but just

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Speaker 6: suffice to say we were stuck.

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Speaker 2: Everyone in the room is stunned, especially to her, and

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Speaker 2: Who's like, wait a second, my wife is the mule.

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Speaker 4: Oh, she's kind of crazy.

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Speaker 1: She easily.

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Speaker 2: She puts him to sleep easily, And Gail tries to

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Speaker 2: take Pritch's gun, but he wrestles it back and he

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Speaker 2: shoots her. And then he's like, listen, I know what

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Speaker 2: it seems like, but my mind is not at all

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Speaker 2: warped by the mule. But I've never felt so much

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Speaker 2: love in my life.

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Speaker 1: Just listen to her. She's got a pitch. Yes.

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Speaker 2: Fantastico then begins to play as the mind battle between

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Speaker 2: Gail and and Beta begins. But Gail tampered with how

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Speaker 2: Fantastico's music were, like change the pictu or something so

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Speaker 2: that it is more in frequency and harmonious.

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Speaker 1: With her powers.

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Speaker 2: And so now Gail's getting stronger, and Gale manages to

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Speaker 2: get Beta out of her head completely. Back on Trantor,

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Speaker 2: dem Demoiselle confronts Dusk, who's holding the.

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Speaker 1: Baby in his arms.

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Speaker 2: He lays the baby on the ascender beam and he's like, dude,

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Speaker 2: I know because of your program, and you're gonna have

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Speaker 2: to save the baby now, so guess what You're gonna

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Speaker 2: die with his baby? Watch this, he hits the button,

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Speaker 2: Demoiselle dives on, the baby gets burned up. Day is

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Speaker 2: super upset at all this, and at the end of it,

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Speaker 2: all that's left on the ascender is some slime.

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Speaker 4: And the way I was like screaming at my TV because.

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Speaker 3: The Johnny not expect the journey that we've been on

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Speaker 3: with Demoiselle and kind of the understanding of who Demoseel

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Speaker 3: really is and what Demozel could mean to like oppressed

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Speaker 3: communities in this world. And then I had also kind

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Speaker 3: of thought, like I don't know, when he nodded at

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Speaker 3: the baby, I was like, he's been recognition that the

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Speaker 3: baby is also him and there is like a cycle

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Speaker 3: that will always go on with the Cleons, and like

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Speaker 3: he realizes that it's this fucked up cycle, and maybe

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Speaker 3: he's gonna I don't save the baby.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Some I'm a lonwolf and cub die Hard, so I get,

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Speaker 3: you know, into that brain.

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Speaker 6: He's like, no, yeah, I thought that too. For a second.

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Speaker 6: I was like, oh, this is like sort of an

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Speaker 6: egocentric Yes, I'm still ultimately like I will just naturally

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Speaker 6: die at some point and my successor should just be

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Speaker 6: me actually exactly.

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Speaker 5: I thought that's where we were going.

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Speaker 4: But no, But he's a baby turn into goo.

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Speaker 2: He wants to be he wants to be free of

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Speaker 2: this robot influence once from for all, and he's managed

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Speaker 2: to do it. Meanwhile, Gail is like racing her in

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Speaker 2: the Black Tongue. She does uh does Steve Rogers move

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Speaker 2: from Captain America Civil War, where she uses like a

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Speaker 2: metal tray to blast to blast through the plateglass window.

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Speaker 1: Like behavior insane, it's so good.

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Speaker 2: Her wonderful lieutenants Rassik catches her with the ship, which

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Speaker 2: is again.

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Speaker 1: Feels like this.

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Speaker 2: That feels like a age of Ultron and the Black

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Speaker 2: Widow Movies.

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Speaker 1: Incredible action movies.

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Speaker 3: Jason David s Gouyle, We feel your your shape and influence.

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 2: Hollow Harry is on Gale's ship and he's like, listen,

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Speaker 2: let me stay in the in the circuits of your

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Speaker 2: ship and come with you. And I want to meet

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Speaker 2: body Harry and figure out like how he got his.

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Speaker 4: Body YadA, yaddi.

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Speaker 2: I want the body as well, like, I'm so fucking

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Speaker 2: you don't understand how Borigan is in the vault, just

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Speaker 2: staring at the vault while is doing nothing, nothing, nothing

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Speaker 2: for years and years and years and just like popping

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Speaker 2: out randomly every few centuries, like I want out, And

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Speaker 2: she's like and and when they jump, obviously like the

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Speaker 2: Bluetooth connection will be severed with her ship. So he,

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Speaker 2: you know, gails to agree to download onto the ship

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Speaker 2: and she's like, no, I can't, Like sorry, you can't

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Speaker 2: for reasons that I'm honestly like unclear about other than

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Speaker 2: bodyboy died, Like, wouldn't you still want hollow Harry with you?

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Speaker 2: But apparently no, he's still an asset, I thought, But

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Speaker 2: she's like no, and they jump and they leave hollow

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Speaker 2: Harry back in the fault. I think hallow Harry is.

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Speaker 1: Gonna become pure villain, Yeah, very much. This was a

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Speaker 1: turning point for hollow Harry. He's gonna be bad.

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Speaker 2: Dago's running through the palace after Dusk, who's hiding in

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Speaker 2: the throne room. They do this like hide and seek

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Speaker 2: thing around the thrones and days like you fucking crazy

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Speaker 2: fuck look what you did, like day then goes full

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Speaker 2: ground and pound mount like he gets the full mount

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Speaker 2: and he just starts working Dusk over. But Dusk is like, bro,

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Speaker 2: I got the nana you're not You're actually not doing

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Speaker 2: anything like this hurts and then say he stands up.

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Speaker 2: He shoots Day and he's like, because you don't have

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Speaker 2: you don't have the na nits, So look at you.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna die now, and he dies in front of Dusk.

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Speaker 2: And as that's happening, Dusk is bragging. He's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: He's like, man, remember the remember the Galactic Council, Remember

285
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Speaker 2: the Lunites, Remember the Cloud Dominion?

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Speaker 1: They're gone?

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Speaker 2: Now did that news get and this is like an

288
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Speaker 2: incredible bar He's like, hey, did that news get all

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Speaker 2: the way down to level eighty eight?

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Speaker 1: Did he get all the way down of Micagen?

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Speaker 2: Did you hear about what I did to the to

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Speaker 2: the Colactic Council illuminis in the Cloud Dominion? Did you

293
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Speaker 2: hear about that you didn't get the news that I

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Speaker 2: took them?

295
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very clear that toy.

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Speaker 4: That I built in my like secret that nobody knew about.

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Speaker 1: Like Dusk is is feeling himself.

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Speaker 2: It's unreal. Quent arrives at the library with the Triangular book.

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Speaker 2: The library welcomes her, Quent presents her the book and

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Speaker 2: she's like, okay, welcome to the Second Foundation, and honestly

301
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Speaker 2: the same. It's just pream down there.

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Speaker 4: You are literally loved. You came with the Grimmery from Wicked.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for the moment.

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Speaker 2: It is just pretty Dusk finally comes down off the

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Speaker 2: high of launching this coup and taking out De Marsel

306
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Speaker 2: and Day and all the other cleons. He gets himself up.

307
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Speaker 2: He calls for an attendant and he's like, listen, I'm

308
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Speaker 2: the sole emperor now uh, and just follow my orders

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Speaker 2: as sole emperor. And the guy's like, I have no choice, okay.

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Speaker 2: In De Marzelle's room, though, the head which was mid

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Speaker 2: interface operation, suddenly comes to life. The clasp is initiated,

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Speaker 2: but who could it possibly be calling? We hear colleades

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Speaker 2: line and we learn from Klai talking to who we

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00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,560
Speaker 2: soon see is is one of the last surviving robots.

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Speaker 2: That Dummarzl was incapable of classmen, so it wouldn't have

316
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:17,360
Speaker 2: worked anything. But Kylle, who is apparently a robot, and

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Speaker 2: the other surviving robots are on the moon and they've

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Speaker 2: been waiting for.

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Speaker 1: This exact moment. Is this has this been?

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Speaker 2: There?

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Speaker 4: Has this been?

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Speaker 2: The player will have to wait for season four to

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Speaker 2: find out. Let's go to break and then we will

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Speaker 2: talk about this man.

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Speaker 1: And we're back.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Please, we need your thoughts.

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Speaker 3: You are the only one that's stearing me through this

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Speaker 3: because I did not.

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Speaker 4: See any of this coming.

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Speaker 3: There's one of the most surprising and shocking finales I've seen.

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Speaker 4: And that's so complimentary, but yeah, like, tell us what happened?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know what.

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Speaker 6: Surprising and shocking for sure, A little less complimentary for me,

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Speaker 6: I will say, Uh, I came out quite mixed on

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Speaker 6: this finale, actually, which is not to say I mixed

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Speaker 6: on this season.

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Speaker 5: I thought this was a very strong season of the show.

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Speaker 6: Actually, I enjoyed so much of it, and I think

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Speaker 6: it reached for new heights that the previous seasons haven't,

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Speaker 6: which I greatly appreciated.

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Speaker 5: Clearly, I'm not.

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Speaker 6: So sure that we one hundred percent stuck the landing

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Speaker 6: here in this final episode. A lot of what took

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Speaker 6: place was beginning to stretch my suspension of disbelief. I

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Speaker 6: was laughing watching Gail dive out of space into atmosphere

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Speaker 6: and then herself into a ship mid like drop, no parachute.

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Speaker 6: I like, that was beyond believability for me.

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Speaker 2: That was that was truly steep.

349
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Speaker 6: Nothing has ever hinted at Gale having those sorts of

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Speaker 6: physical abilities, so I was just like, what's going on here.

351
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Speaker 6: I also, I'm as much as I loved Demozel's death

352
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Speaker 6: as a shocking thing to happen, I don't know that

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Speaker 6: we built up to it this LEAs.

354
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Speaker 4: Can I say, do you feel like that is death?

355
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:30,639
Speaker 1: Death?

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Speaker 3: Death?

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Speaker 4: There's no, because I know it does look like that,

358
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Speaker 4: But I felt the same way. I feel like.

359
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Speaker 3: There's no way that could just be the end of

360
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,040
Speaker 3: Demoiselle with everything else that we've experienced through this season.

361
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Speaker 6: No, I actually do think that is the end of Demozel.

362
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:46,959
Speaker 6: I think I think that, yeah, this is the end

363
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Speaker 6: of this character. But what I'm a little disappointed in

364
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,920
Speaker 6: is that we spent this whole season actually having really

365
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:59,000
Speaker 6: interesting and deeply philosophical explorations of free will and choice

366
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Speaker 6: through Demorzelle, and then she spends this whole last episode.

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Speaker 5: Going no but my programming, No but my programming. And

368
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 5: I was kind of like.

369
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,239
Speaker 6: Haven't you been questioning and pushing your programming for like

370
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 6: three seasons now, and suddenly you're all about it so

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00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 6: that the plot can happen. It felt a little bit

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Speaker 6: like a step back for her character, rather than continuing

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Speaker 6: to follow the threads we've been pulling with Demerzel. So

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Speaker 6: there were a couple of little moments like that that

375
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Speaker 6: felt a little unsatisfying for me in this episode in particular,

376
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Speaker 6: But honestly, like, I'm actually willing to overlook a lot

377
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,679
Speaker 6: of my grievances just because the rest of the season

378
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 6: was so so good, and I think there were some

379
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:43,400
Speaker 6: genuine shocks. I did not see the beta thing coming

380
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 6: at all, and looking back, I think it was actually seated,

381
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 6: really really well.

382
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Speaker 5: I think the beta thing is well earned.

383
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Speaker 6: I just don't know that we close the loops on

384
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Speaker 6: some of the other characters, like Demerzel.

385
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Speaker 4: How do you feel about the Dusk of it All?

386
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:05,479
Speaker 2: I loved watching Dust, Yeah, I Dusk was so I

387
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,679
Speaker 2: absolutely love Dusk. Dusk was like a Dusk is like

388
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,400
Speaker 2: a He was like a rat in a cage, you know,

389
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 2: with no way out, just doing more and more desperate

390
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 2: things in order to survive, and that he did survive

391
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 2: is kind of thrilling, like everybody underestimated, even to the

392
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 2: point of, like I mean, I it was a small point,

393
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: but even even that comment from the tailor of like, oh,

394
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 2: you're in your slimmer than the other ones, clearly he

395
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,639
Speaker 2: has been keeping himself strong for this moment, like he

396
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,199
Speaker 2: never let go of the rope, and it was it

397
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 2: was really thrilling to see him out maneuver all of

398
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 2: his brothers, both Foundations, Demarzelle and kind of the Mule too.

399
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:57,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, I agree, What did you guys think? Though I

400
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:03,239
Speaker 6: don't want to bring the energy down. I think they

401
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:04,439
Speaker 6: were just a couple of quibbles I had.

402
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 3: I think I think that as somebody who is coming

403
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 3: to this just as a TV watcher, I do think

404
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 3: this is the best season of the show. And I

405
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 3: do think clearly that you know the get you are right, Like,

406
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,239
Speaker 3: there was definitely some a couple of moments where it

407
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 3: was a bit like we got the budget, it's superhero

408
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 3: blockbuster the kind of thing now, which feels very different

409
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 3: to like the esoteric, weird kind of storytelling that this

410
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 3: show is so good at. But I felt like in

411
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 3: general I was hooked on this finale, and I just

412
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 3: couldn't believe what kept happening. Again, I knew that the

413
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 3: mule reveal was going to be crazy, but I didn't

414
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 3: guess if you'd have given me like three people to

415
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 3: pick BITA would not have been on that, which I

416
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,360
Speaker 3: think is shows.

417
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 4: The skill of the writers. That's the kind of twist

418
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 4: we need. I do. I just wonder what a fourth

419
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 4: season of this show looks like.

420
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 3: That's what I kind of, as a few I am

421
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 3: most interested in because basically everything we know about the

422
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 3: show has changed in the finale of this episode. So obviously,

423
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 3: even if they're going to do the time jump, going

424
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 3: to do everything, we kind of have destroyed most of

425
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 3: what we understand to be kind of the god rails

426
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,959
Speaker 3: of the Cleons and the show. So I'm interested in

427
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 3: what a fourth season would look like. Jason, how did

428
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 3: you feel about the finale?

429
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I liked it.

430
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 2: I agree with I agree with that Boo that particular

431
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: to de Marzell, it felt like there was more juice

432
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: to squeeze and that I didn't necessarily have a problem

433
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 2: with the way she was manipulated in this episode. What

434
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,239
Speaker 2: I would have loved more of is the implications of

435
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 2: how easy it is to manipulate her having a chance

436
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 2: to kind of reverberate more through the season, or at

437
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: least be seated in a way that the beta reveal

438
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 2: eventually it was and then was allowed to kind of

439
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 2: like take root. I think that there were I think

440
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 2: that we could have had more hints about Colleis and

441
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 2: the robots on the moon pulling strings and being and

442
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 2: waiting for this moment, because it certainly does seem like

443
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 2: this eventuality was something that they were maybe not moving towards,

444
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 2: but preparing preparing for on some level, and so I

445
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 2: would love to know what their roles are in all

446
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 2: of this. And but generally I think that this the

447
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 2: show reached such operatic heights of the season, both like

448
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: of of both like soaring ambition, soaring a plot development

449
00:24:55,359 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: like and almost over the top dedicate Haiti to just

450
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: maximalist everything, like the most insane line reads, the most

451
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 2: insane plot twists, and what if we give you a

452
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: plot twist every every episode, and like the most insane

453
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 2: characterizations of the even your heroes, like the fact I'm

454
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 2: still laughing at like at body Harry being the type

455
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 2: of guy who like the difference between him and hologram

456
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: Harry being that he would build the statues of.

457
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: His friends first before he builds a statue of himself.

458
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 2: That being the like all of those things working together

459
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: to create this like utterly insane self aggrandizing.

460
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 4: You know, opera space space.

461
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: And I enjoyed it because it was it was just

462
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 2: everything like if there, if everything goes to ten, this

463
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: season of the show was like, well what if we

464
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 2: started everything at it?

465
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, exactly, I think that's very well putting it.

466
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: And so in that sense, I enjoyed it because it's

467
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 2: it is rare that you see a show just be

468
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 2: like pushed, like turn everything up and let's really and it.

469
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: As Goyer will say, you know in our interview, they

470
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 2: were always working towards this season, so it was it

471
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 2: was delightful and thrilling to see them hit it this hard.

472
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. I also just think, like, I think this is

473
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 3: such a It seems like a small thing, but if

474
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 3: you really think about it, like when has a show,

475
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 3: let alone a genre show managed to introduce characters who

476
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 3: are essentially like influencers, right, and managed to build in

477
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 3: things that we recognize as modern things like magnifico being

478
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 3: a DJ and not have it completely pull you out

479
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 3: of the show and feel like it's completely unnatural. I

480
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 3: think as soon as that hit for me and it worked,

481
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 3: I just think from then on this show was operating

482
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 3: at like a higher level than a lot of other

483
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 3: They find a way to build in the familiar but

484
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 3: also do the most kind of insane, out there stuff

485
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 3: you can't see, and I think that makes a great show.

486
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 3: And I really hope that people discovered this season, even

487
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:08,959
Speaker 3: if they then want to go back or they want

488
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 3: to stop from the beginning, I just think it really

489
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 3: is one of the best shows on TV, and I

490
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 3: think this finale is like such a crazy, bombastic way

491
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 3: to end this season.

492
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: Well, let's take a quick break and then we will

493
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 2: be right back with our conversation with creator and executive

494
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: producer David square Wood.

495
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: David A. Squoire, thank you for joining us.

496
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 8: Nice to be here.

497
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: When we were doing.

498
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 2: The pod, you were always saying like, we're building towards

499
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: this season and has happened, and it has been truly,

500
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: I mean, a show hitting its stride just to fit,

501
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 2: fantastic and twisty turney story Aboo and I were saying

502
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 2: it felt like there was like a jaw dropping reveal

503
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 2: almost every episode in the middle of the run of

504
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: the season. What's it been like to watch this come out?

505
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 8: Look, we we we had a long game plan. Yeah,

506
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 8: and I think it's evident from this season that a

507
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 8: lot of little breadcrumbs and things that we put in

508
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 8: place throughout the first two seasons have now make see

509
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 8: my metaphors have now come home, come home to roost.

510
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 8: And so when you start a really sophisticated kind of

511
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 8: story DNS show like this, you have no idea how

512
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 8: it's going to be received or if you're ever going

513
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 8: to get to see some of these plans come to fruition.

514
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 8: But it's nice that insofar as season three goes like

515
00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 8: the audience is going a so knew that that was

516
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 8: the case. There were so many things that I was

517
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 8: I tried to make seasons one of the seasons two

518
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 8: as satisfying as possible, while at the same time sort

519
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 8: of sitting on some of these reveals, because it was

520
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 8: my contention that these reveals would be more dramatic and

521
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 8: you know, more well earned if they sort of had

522
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 8: time to cook, if you will. And I think the

523
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 8: whole thing with the like for instance, like the Cleons

524
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 8: having different personalities every season. I think that that I

525
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 8: also believe in kind of the rule of threes, and

526
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 8: so it's that whole idea of nature and nurture and

527
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 8: all that stuff. I really felt like we needed three

528
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 8: seasons to tell that story, three seasons to tell den

529
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 8: results story. But there's so many things that like even

530
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 8: her song where it's revealed in episode eight what her

531
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 8: song is that, I mean that was planned from the beginning. Wow,

532
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 8: I mean virtually all of those planned from the beginning.

533
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 8: So it's nice to see people getting it and connecting

534
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 8: the dots and going aha and generally feeling like it

535
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 8: was very satisfying. But I agree with you, I mean,

536
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 8: there's all there's almost every episode has a kind of big,

537
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 8: at least one, if not multiple, kind of jaw dropping reveals.

538
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 6: Well, David, I was going to ask, does it feel

539
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 6: to you now you're talking about the Rule of threes

540
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 6: three seasons concluded? Does it feel to you now that

541
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 6: you have completed an arc of the show and now

542
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 6: you get to sort of hit the reset button and

543
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 6: start another arc? Considering how much changed in episode ten,

544
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 6: how many jaw dropping deaths there were at the end

545
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 6: of the season.

546
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 8: Well, yeah, I mean I originally I had planned eight seasons,

547
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 8: and I had no idea whether or not we were

548
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 8: going to get there, and so I had kind of

549
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 8: had a fallback plan to end in six, to end

550
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 8: in four. And so this certainly what I would call

551
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 8: the end of the first act, because what finally witnesses

552
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 8: the end of the genetic.

553
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 5: Dynasty right at the end of their share.

554
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 8: So that was that was the big condition that Harry

555
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 8: was hoping to sort of you know, take off the

556
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 8: board in one way or another. What we didn't get

557
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 8: at the end of the season is the fall of

558
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 8: the Mule. But where I wanted to get to was

559
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 8: a place in terms of the audience that now a

560
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 8: sense of like, really anything can happen. Yeah, from this point.

561
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: On, I mean it certainly feels like that. Let's talk

562
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: about some of those.

563
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: Some of those jaw dropping deaths, because I think we're

564
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: still grappling with how many main characters were swept off

565
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: the stage, and I think for me, probably the most

566
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 2: shocking one is de Marcel, who I thought.

567
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: For sure was.

568
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: Either potent actually the real maestro behind all of this

569
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: or certainly had more to give the story, I thought,

570
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: And then wow, what I'm blown away to see her die.

571
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: It is a gut punch. Tell us, tell us about that.

572
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 8: Well, she is one of the She's certainly one of

573
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 8: the maestros, right, yes, I mean I would say she

574
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 8: and Harry, and then as Harry's protege maybe a little

575
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 8: bit gaale right right, yes, and a right of course.

576
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 8: But just because you're and that's one of the things

577
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 8: that we sort of say in nine is that there

578
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 8: are really three three mothers of the math. There there

579
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 8: was Calai, there was Demoisel, and there was Yanna in

580
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 8: a way, and and then Harry of course with the

581
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 8: other architect of math. But just because your maestro doesn't

582
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 8: mean you can't be swept off the bloor. And so

583
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 8: I think I think, you know, when I first proposed

584
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 8: in season four, I'm sorry, And when we were breaking

585
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 8: season three that we killed both Day you know and Demerzelle,

586
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 8: my writers just were like almost staged a rebellion. But

587
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 8: I but but a lot of times I love what

588
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 8: I like to do in the writer's room is I

589
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 8: call it like turning over the apple cart, right, I

590
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 8: like to say, like, okay, but hypothetically, just bear with me,

591
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 8: what would that mean if and then and the question

592
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 8: is if, you know, is it interesting to see? I

593
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 8: always knew that I wanted Dusk to not accept his fate,

594
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 8: you know, gracefully, and and so I thought, well, he,

595
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 8: you know, Demrozel's the real threat. And and if he

596
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 8: you know, I don't know in his mind that he

597
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 8: was fully intending to kill Demerzel from the very beginning.

598
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 8: But I think at least midway through the season, he

599
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 8: was thinking, I'm definitely gonna destroy the Clone Banks because

600
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,959
Speaker 8: if I destroy the Clone Banks, that might reset Demriselle's

601
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 8: programming and conditions, right. But I think then events just

602
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 8: got to a point where he saw the opportunity to

603
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 8: sort of destroy the Cone Banks and get rid of her,

604
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 8: and and then he's got this literal death star. So

605
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 8: he was like, Okay, well fuck it, I'll do it.

606
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 6: You know, probably the same day he decided to become

607
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 6: the consequential, you.

608
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 8: Know, yeah, yeah, probably.

609
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 6: All clicked on the same day for him exactly.

610
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 8: But you know, it's a it's it's been gratifying to

611
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 8: watch people's you know. And I went back and forth

612
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 8: because I I I enjoyed doing the pot the Official

613
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 8: Foundation podcast with you Jason, and I still am very

614
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 8: proud of the season. And it's largely tracks with, you know,

615
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 8: everything that I planned. And so I was as I had,

616
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 8: I don't know dozens of people reaching out saying, oh

617
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 8: we missed a podcast, and oh this and that, and

618
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,959
Speaker 8: I was like, okay, I guess I got I guess

619
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 8: I owe it to the fans to do this. I'm

620
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 8: doing one other podcast.

621
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: Well we really, we really appreciate it. I wanted to

622
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: just mention what a fun ride Dusk was this season,

623
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: because wasn't he I mean he was, first of all,

624
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: so obviously going through it from the first when we

625
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: meet him watching old youtubes of yeah dusks getting vaporized,

626
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: and then I quite enjoyed the kind of rollercoaster ride

627
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: of him trying to pretend like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm

628
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: fine ascension, Yeah totally yeah.

629
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 8: But he's also lobbying Dawn and he's lobbying you know, Demrozelle,

630
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 8: and he lobby his day and like so he's going

631
00:35:58,680 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 8: back and forth.

632
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I should stick around, right, I mean, we

633
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: got this organism, you kind.

634
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 8: Of need me.

635
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 2: What a fun ride, Yeah, tell us about like crafting

636
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,240
Speaker 2: that story because he was fantastic this season.

637
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 8: Well, one of the things that's when you get to

638
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 8: do multiple seasons and you've got so many talented actors,

639
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 8: you think about what they're capable of and what we've

640
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 8: seen them do like in any given season, and what

641
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 8: would be fun to see them do differently. And so

642
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 8: as we were putting together the season, that's how we

643
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 8: started talking about brother Dude, which we were calling him

644
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 8: that even before you know, the Internet, and and then

645
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 8: we thought, Okay, it'll be really fun to see really

646
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 8: all of the Cleons kind of step into their own

647
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 8: in a way we haven't fully seen and try to

648
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 8: really break free other I mean, we've seen Dawn break free,

649
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 8: but he really really tries to break free, you know here.

650
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 8: And I just thought it would be fun to have

651
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 8: Terry be because most of the time, you know, in

652
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 8: season one, we had the beautiful tone poem of me

653
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 8: on the first and he seems to be gentle and

654
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 8: he seems to be the conscience of the emperors, and

655
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 8: I just thought it would be and Terry's such a

656
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 8: lovely guy, really fun to just by the end just

657
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 8: have him be fucking evil. So it's just like, well,

658
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 8: what happened we seen them do before and what would

659
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 8: he And so I said to Terry, I was talking

660
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 8: to him about what we were planning for season three,

661
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 8: and I knew that he'd been wanting to lose weight,

662
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 8: and so I said, can you drop twenty pounds like

663
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 8: in between seasons? And He's like and I was like why,

664
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 8: And I told him what I want to do, not

665
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 8: that that required it, but I thought it was sure.

666
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 8: But he did it. Yeah, And he was sending me

667
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 8: progress pictures of losing weight, you know, in between seasons,

668
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 8: and I was like, cool because they are like there's

669
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 8: more spring in your step and more. Yeah, so he

670
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 8: put on he lost twenty pounds and then the still

671
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 8: it's amazing, put on twenty.

672
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: Yes, he's fantastic this season.

673
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

674
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 6: You know, David, hearing you talking about the writing process

675
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 6: is really fascinating to me because I'm getting this very

676
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 6: like meta vibe, like you are the psychohistorian. You've planned

677
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 6: out this like huge, for sure season arc of the show,

678
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 6: but then as you go you're sort of correcting the

679
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 6: math and also turning the apple card over. Right, You're

680
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 6: saying like okay, but what if? What if mule comes

681
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 6: in and the plan all goes to shit? How does

682
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 6: that play out? How do we play with that?

683
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 5: Is that.

684
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 6: Something you've had to Is that something you've learned over

685
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 6: your long writing career is turn the apple card over, ask.

686
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 5: The what if questions.

687
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 6: Don't be afraid of letting go of the math. How

688
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 6: committed are you typically to your math versus try something

689
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 6: totally new?

690
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 8: Look. I had coming into the show six years ago,

691
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 8: a definite, big stroke plan, and I had a definitive

692
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 8: end in my mind. I knew what the last episode

693
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 8: was and who sort of makes it all the way

694
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 8: through to the end, who doesn't. And I knew what

695
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 8: the big beats of every season weren't as one would

696
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 8: expect season one, season two were more fleshed out, and

697
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 8: then as we got further on, you know, it got

698
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 8: a little broader. So it's a combination of both, which

699
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 8: is to say, you know, I'm experienced enough to know

700
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 8: that One of the beautiful things about the television show

701
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 8: as opposed to a movie is you do have the

702
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 8: ability to not in real time, but respond a little

703
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 8: bit in between seasons, right, So part of it is

704
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 8: you can see you know what your your season regular

705
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 8: series regulars are came beloved with the excel at what

706
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 8: they don't excel at, and sometimes you think both that

707
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 8: they One of the things that I realized, and he

708
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 8: was very resistant at first in season one with Day,

709
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 8: is that he's capable of being funny and particularly learnedly

710
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 8: as like a straight man kind of And so we

711
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 8: put more of that stuff in season two, whereas we

712
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 8: hadn't originally anticipated that. And then so you you have

713
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 8: to allow yourself the ability to course correct and some

714
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 8: of the things. Sometimes what we did is things that

715
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 8: I was intending to do. I need some things that

716
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 8: in season two that I wasn't planning to do until

717
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 8: season four. But like that's where I realized. Like when

718
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 8: I was working with Chris Nolan on the Batman movies,

719
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 8: sometimes we would talk about an idea for the next movie,

720
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 8: and he would say, fuck it, let's do it now,

721
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 8: because you never know if you have a good idea,

722
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 8: use it now. So it's a combination of like using

723
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 8: it now if we have a good idea, and at

724
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 8: the same time still pulling some things back. And so

725
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 8: I did see my my position a little bit as

726
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 8: if I had like one foot in the first foundation

727
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 8: of one foot in the second foundings a little bit

728
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 8: and so so there's a plan, but we're also a

729
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 8: little bit sometimes manipulating it in real time. If that

730
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:21,439
Speaker 8: makes sense.

731
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: It does as the man with the plan. Let's talk

732
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 2: about plans, because I think one of the big conversation

733
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: points for us this season was like, Who's plan are

734
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 2: we in? Are we in Harry's plan? Which Harry is

735
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 2: planner in? Are we in Gale's plan? Is this actually

736
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 2: De Marzille's plan? Is this Calli's plan? Whose plan?

737
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: Is the mule in?

738
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 2: Is the mule a actual player in this game? Or

739
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: is the mule a piece played by someone else? And

740
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 2: we revealed a lot about the Mule and shocking fashion

741
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: this season.

742
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 8: But like.

743
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: I guess, so, I'll ask you where does what's the

744
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: status of the plan now? And if there ever was

745
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 2: a plan, is it still running?

746
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 8: It is mostly not still running. We are mostly off

747
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 8: book because the thing about now, I will say a

748
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 8: couple of things. On one hand, the fall, while while

749
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 8: the plan anticipated certain ways that the empire could fall, right,

750
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 8: and this is not exactly the way that this was

751
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 8: not one of those anticipated, you know, paths. Empire falling

752
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 8: does fall in line with the plan, right, it fell

753
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 8: later than the plan, but does fall in line with

754
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 8: the plan. And so once empire falls, other conditions are

755
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 8: are are put into effect that to a certain extent,

756
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 8: psychohistory can predict once this sort of central power faults.

757
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 8: The mule was something that was was not planned, and

758
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 8: so this is what I would say, Vampire falls and

759
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 8: they can get rid of the mule. There's a possibility

760
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 8: they could get a plan in some form back on track,

761
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 8: but we've still got the mule out there. Who's this

762
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 8: big spoiler?

763
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: Tell us about that mule switch up? Which I mean, listen,

764
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: we had our own theories.

765
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:33,439
Speaker 1: Was that wrong?

766
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: Tell us about that one because that was a real

767
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 2: like who ambush well?

768
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 8: And it's it's funny because I would say this season

769
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 8: cleaves the most directly to the books out of all

770
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 8: the seasons, and the revealing in the books is that

771
00:43:55,080 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 8: Magnifico is the mule. Uh And to a certain extent

772
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,919
Speaker 8: it was shocking at the time it happened. But there's

773
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 8: mention of a pirate, a guy whose eyes glow and

774
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 8: you know, we can do all these things, but he's

775
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 8: never seen in the books, which is why we wanted

776
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 8: to build up the straw dog, the red herring of that.

777
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 8: He's mentioned in the books, but we never actually see

778
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 8: him on screen, And so I contend that if you're

779
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 8: trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes, there needs

780
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 8: to be a credible alternate, Like if we don't ever

781
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 8: show the Warlord, then it's it's hard not to suspect

782
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 8: someone like Magnifico, and so book readers, in the book,

783
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 8: Magnifico is the mule and Beta is the one. Beta's

784
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 8: even in the book is sort of craftier than Jip Beer's,

785
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 8: and Beta's the one kind of figures it up. But

786
00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 8: I thought, well, I think if asthmav we're alive today,

787
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 8: you know there were very Beta was the first sort

788
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 8: of fairly well fleshed out female character in Asthma's books.

789
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 8: But I don't think it ever would have occurred to

790
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 8: Asthma back then to make the villain a woman, because

791
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 8: if you think about the time that Asma was writing that,

792
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 8: but I think if you've been writing it now, it

793
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 8: might have occurred to him. And I think, you know,

794
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 8: I saw some people online complaining initially about Beta and

795
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 8: torn and they seemed so vapid and dismissive, and I

796
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 8: was like, but that is such a perfect way to,

797
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 8: you know, confuse the audience. And I still think, you know,

798
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 8: she dressed like a showgirl and she and I think

799
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 8: as the season went on, it became apparent to the

800
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 8: audience that she was more clever than she appeared. But

801
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 8: I'm kind of surprised that you guys didn't see that

802
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 8: coming because I think in the last couple of episodes

803
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 8: we're putting like, there's some stuff in episode eight where

804
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 8: we're sort of like, hey, look here.

805
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, magnifico things. I love Beta.

806
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 6: Yes, it's like a neon side pointing at Beta.

807
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: Absolutely in retrospect.

808
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 8: Yes, but see why is that? Why is that because

809
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 8: why didn't you? Is it because we still don't we

810
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:22,479
Speaker 8: still have these sort of you know, condition feelings about

811
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 8: female characters or like why why is that that? Because

812
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 8: you're smart guys, you know. I don't know if you're

813
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 8: a writer a boot, but you're you're a writer also,

814
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 8: you know, And and it's like why, like, and I

815
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 8: haven't seen anyone theorize it online, Like why is that?

816
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 2: It's a great question, I think because she honestly. First

817
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 2: of all, the red herring of Magnifico worked delightfully. And

818
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 2: I think the pacing of the story, and this is

819
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: just for me. Your mileage may vary, but the pacing

820
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 2: of the story because just when we were beginning to

821
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 2: really try to interrogate, well are they going to do

822
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: the magnificent thing, we get the flashback to the Mule

823
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: where you cast a young character who is like, Okay,

824
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 2: well that's him, so it's not magnificent unless and then

825
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: you and then by the time you start to interrogate that, well,

826
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: how much do we trust that? And that was that

827
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 2: an implanted memory?

828
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 8: It was that's when you get to the mule. The

829
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 8: warlord thought he was the mule, right, Yes, that's what

830
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 8: you did, because that's that's what you do for a

831
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 8: good you know, a good misdirect, Like he thought that

832
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 8: was his memory. And then we sort of revisited again

833
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 8: and we see it wasn't even his memory and it

834
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 8: was a little girl instead. And and you understand why

835
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 8: they might have in that society saved the male baby,

836
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 8: but not like a ten year old girl or whatever

837
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 8: it is.

838
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: But sorry, all I'm saying is I think it was

839
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: just camouflaged wonderfully. And you know, as again as a

840
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 2: as a person who love stories reads a lot writes,

841
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: there is something truly wonderful about getting hoodwinked. When you

842
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 2: think I've seen all, I've seen the moves, it's been great.

843
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 8: We all watch these shows and we all think this

844
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 8: character is a plot am or this or that, and

845
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 8: and I I was like, are we going to get

846
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 8: away with no one suspecting Beta? Oh my god? We did?

847
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 8: Are we going to get away with killing Day and

848
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 8: then dem Resel? Oh my god? Because I think everybody's like, well,

849
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 8: Day's going to survive or certainly Demrizel will survive, you know.

850
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 8: But it's like I was like, fuck, we did, Like

851
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 8: I you know, like it's hard to it's hard to

852
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 8: pool or hood we as you said, a sophisticated serialized

853
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,879
Speaker 8: storytelling audience these days, it's really hard.

854
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

855
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 6: And I think David, to your point, Beta being the

856
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 6: female villain of this story, I'm sure caught many folks

857
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 6: off guard because in this season she is very much

858
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 6: leaning into the sort of typical female like caretaker role

859
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 6: for Magnifico, and so you yeah, it's just like very disarming.

860
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 6: She is just so likable and lovable and kind of

861
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 6: fits the mold that you assume in your mind. This

862
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 6: character is supposed to fit for the whole season, and

863
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 6: she has some really standout moments throughout the season, and

864
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 6: she shows some surprising intuition in moments, but that only

865
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 6: just makes her more endearing and less suspicious.

866
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 5: So I think the bait.

867
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 6: And switch works like so well because I'm totally disarmed.

868
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 2: The one now where I'm where I am disappointed myself

869
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 2: for not thinking about it. Here's the moment where I

870
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 2: really I feel like, gosh, we should have known. Is

871
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 2: you know, post battle, Dawn's legs are fucked up, They're

872
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 2: up there. The mule, who we think is the mule,

873
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 2: is you know this episodating? Yes, yes, is lording over Dawn.

874
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: And then Beta says, you know what, stop it and

875
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: get out of here.

876
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:10,720
Speaker 1: She does.

877
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 8: I thought that was like sob.

878
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 2: And I noted it at the time in my recap

879
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 2: like he kind of hems in haws, but he does it,

880
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: which is And.

881
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 8: I saw some people online going, oh, it must be

882
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 8: because Magnifico likes her and this guy knows not to

883
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 8: mess with the you know, the bosses girl, you know

884
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 8: like that, but it's like to me, it's like but

885
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 8: like you're everyone is like like missing the obvious, which

886
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 8: is like she's a mule.

887
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 2: Like yeah, that is the one now where in retrospect

888
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: I should have been like, oh, yeah, okay, because he

889
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: did what he listens to her, he leaves and yeah,

890
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,760
Speaker 2: just incredible. But but again the way it is framed

891
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 2: where it seems like she's too scared to speak up

892
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 2: until that moment where his his torture of Dawn becomes

893
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 2: just too much for her to bear. And again in

894
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 2: that in that caretaker frame, her kind of objection feels

895
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,919
Speaker 2: like this protectiveness where you and I totally I fell

896
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 2: for it.

897
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: I feel for it where I'm like, well she's.

898
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 8: I mean, look, she's an interesting study case. And she

899
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 8: talks about this a bit in episode ten because she

900
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 8: she has those instincts, but she also has a space pirates,

901
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 8: like she's both. But what she did was she kind

902
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 8: of with a space pirate Like I said, he was

903
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,720
Speaker 8: like a useful idiot, but he's also like a useful

904
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 8: id Like she's sort of like, oh, he's doing the dumping.

905
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 8: The dumping and if you think about like how naskety.

906
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 8: This was like when the Space Pirate was doing what

907
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 8: he did to Torn in the club. Yeah, and she's

908
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 8: like she does love Torn, but like she's you know,

909
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 8: it's like if you think about it from her perspective,

910
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 8: and she's got these abilities and she can set up

911
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 8: this other target that everyone thinks is it's useful, right.

912
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 8: And I think about when she convinces rand New to

913
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 8: go to Foundation and then they had that scene where

914
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 8: they play, you know, for all the leaders of Foundation.

915
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 8: I mean she was just manipulating all of it. Wow,

916
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 8: so that you know, she could get the Whisper ship

917
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:39,439
Speaker 8: fleets and all the book.

918
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

919
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 6: As a writer, David, thinking back on your very impressive career,

920
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 6: is this the most satisfying thing a writer can do?

921
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 6: To be able to fully pull something like this off?

922
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 5: Or you know, just speaking as a right, Yeah, this

923
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 5: is fun for you.

924
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 6: You get to watch everyone just get the theories wrong.

925
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah, it is fun. It is because it's really

926
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 8: it's increasingly harder and harder.

927
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: It's really hard.

928
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 8: It's harder. It's hard to keep secrets, it's hard to

929
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 8: There was this this young actress I can't remember her

930
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 8: name who in because we shot some footage of Young

931
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 8: Beta at the same time as we were shooting Young Mule.

932
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 8: We would just like swap, you know, the young girl

933
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 8: out for the young boy. Yeah. So she was I

934
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 8: can't remember how many shots she was, but she she

935
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 8: she posted and even Apple didn't catch this. She she

936
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 8: tagged me, she posted online on Instagram like I play

937
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 8: Young Beta. And I was like, I wonder if anyone's

938
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 8: paying attention to this or like could see there's a

939
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 8: potential clue there, because there's like a couple behind the

940
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 8: scenes shots of her, like on the rawsome location, and

941
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 8: and I was like, shit, that's if you if people

942
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 8: were really intrepid, like that's a spoiler. But even Apple

943
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 8: didn't catch that it was out there. And I was like, well,

944
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,399
Speaker 8: I'm not going to raise my hand now because then

945
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 8: people might notice, you know that you said.

946
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 6: That, Wow, you get to play with the audience.

947
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,760
Speaker 1: Yeahs reuly great.

948
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 5: What is so?

949
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 2: What is Gail thinking now? She's dedicated centuries of her

950
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 2: life and multiple of her boyfriends to this mission, and

951
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 2: her and her daughter who she never got to really

952
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:40,800
Speaker 2: spend enough time with and had this incredible mentor in Harry,

953
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 2: who you know, turns out to be not exactly a Charlottean,

954
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 2: but certainly not what he was hyped up to be.

955
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 2: And how does she face the future now.

956
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 8: Well, coming out of this season, Like at this point when.

957
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:08,879
Speaker 9: She leaves, her husband has been converted and literally stabbed her,

958
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 9: like tried to stab her in the heart and misses

959
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 9: like stabs her, you know, between the ribs.

960
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 8: She doesn't know if Second Foundation had made it to Trantle.

961
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 8: She doesn't know yet that Vault Harry has aligned with Beta,

962
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 8: So as bad as it is, she doesn't even know

963
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 8: how bad it's about to get. Uh, She's really fucked

964
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:38,720
Speaker 8: come next season.

965
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,240
Speaker 5: And I'm wondering word.

966
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 8: Is exactly exactly? And I think that the one of

967
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 8: the things that I had set out to do from

968
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 8: the beginning with this show was there are very few

969
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 8: characters in the show who one could say are all

970
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 8: good or all bad, right, And I really wanted to

971
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 8: show in the case of like Demoiselle and the Cleons,

972
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 8: like they are just trapped in this It's like generational

973
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 8: trauma to the nth degree, like where it's like they're

974
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 8: where you can you can you can have empathy for

975
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 8: all four of them, like at different points, right, But

976
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 8: they're just so fucked to like, you know, we say

977
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 8: it in the second episode of season one, like how

978
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 8: many times do we do this? Like you always do?

979
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 8: It's like, we're fucked, Demoiselle Dawn Data, We're all fucked.

980
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 8: And and Gale this season sort of becomes Harry and

981
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 8: like she makes this play to sacrifice Coulgan and you know,

982
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 8: billions of people die and she's wrong and she but

983
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 8: but then I had always said, you know, like that

984
00:56:54,440 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 8: the only uh tiny sliver of government power I ever had.

985
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 8: As I was on the board of the Writer's Guild

986
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 8: for two terms, and it became apparent to me that

987
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 8: even on something small like that, one had to make compromises,

988
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 8: and one sometimes had to make decisions that it were

989
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 8: for the greater good, knowing that small slivers of your

990
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 8: constituency would be disadvantaged by this decision. And that's just governance, right,

991
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 8: And so then you extrapolate that to a state or

992
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 8: a country, you know, like Washington, or the world, or

993
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 8: then an empire, and like, in order to make decisions

994
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 8: like that, I had always said, you know, we're dealing

995
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 8: with tens of thousands of worlds. Sometimes you're going to

996
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 8: have to make decisions where whole planets are going to

997
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 8: be allowed to go follow or be sacrificed. That's just

998
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 8: the the scale of the math forces that. Now. Is

999
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 8: it good?

1000
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 6: Is it bad?

1001
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 8: I don't know. But if you like I would say

1002
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 8: to you, you guys like today, like if you knew

1003
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 8: that you could say the entire planet, but you would

1004
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 8: have to kill ten innocent people? Would you do it? Most?

1005
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 8: I would. I would feel bad about it, but I

1006
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 8: would do it, you know. And now scale that up?

1007
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah to the galaxy?

1008
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, to tens of thousands of years.

1009
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 2: Well you mentioned Demrsela. I guess we should.

1010
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 7: Uh.

1011
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 2: She was the subject of so much theorizing between a

1012
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 2: Boo and myself where and the characterization of her really

1013
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 2: trying to figure out and unwrap her own consciousness. Am

1014
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 2: I working against am I secretly working against empire? Or

1015
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 2: am I not? Do I want to be free? And

1016
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 2: am I trying to find a loophole that would allow

1017
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 2: me to do that? Or am I not did I

1018
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 2: start this whole thing? Or am I actually the defender

1019
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 2: of empire? And then when people kind of cross that

1020
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 2: line with her, she very strongly says, oh no, no,

1021
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 2: you've got me wrong. I am still like the reaper

1022
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 2: of the Empire. What a complicated character tell us about

1023
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 2: like unraveling all that with her this season.

1024
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 8: Well, I suppose this goes back to my no one's

1025
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 8: all good and no one's all bad, because I personally

1026
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 8: have a lot of I really like the character of Demosol,

1027
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 8: and I have a ton of empathy for her, and

1028
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 8: particularly after the reveal of episode nine and season two,

1029
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 8: you know that short, yeah, but then she does some

1030
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 8: insanely funked up things this y season, not the least

1031
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 8: which is like basically destroys her entire religion like home

1032
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 8: planet and like and and you know, has confesses to

1033
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 8: Virellas but then erases her memory. I mean, that's just

1034
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 8: a brutal scene. And I just I like sitting in

1035
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 8: this uneasy place with you. I think Salva largely was

1036
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 8: almost all good, you know. And I would say the

1037
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 8: Warlord could arguably be considered because he's so just sadistic,

1038
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 8: almost all bad. We don't really know what is, you know,

1039
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 8: but there are very few characters that you could categorize

1040
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 8: it's sort of almost all good or almost all bad.

1041
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 8: And that's just Demrisella is one of the same, which

1042
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 8: is she's also not human. Yeah, And so you think

1043
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 8: about a character that's been alive for thousands of years

1044
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 8: and had those things done, and she's it would be

1045
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 8: it as an audience, as audience members, we want to

1046
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 8: imbue her with the same sort of feelings that we have.

1047
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 8: But but I kept saying, you know, to Laura, to

1048
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 8: the directors, to my fellow writers, she's not human. She

1049
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 8: will never be human. She operates on a completely different scale.

1050
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 8: She operates on and so it's a we're going to

1051
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 8: lean into that because we know that the audience will

1052
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 8: want that, but she's not and it would will always

1053
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 8: be a mistake to assume she's here.

1054
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, And there were a ton of disarming scenes like

1055
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,479
Speaker 6: that this season. Her outburst when she's talking to Gail

1056
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 6: and when she talks about raising the Cleons.

1057
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 5: You know, that's so huge.

1058
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 8: I do think, I do think. I do think she

1059
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 8: does love the Cleons. And the question is does she

1060
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 8: love them because she loves them or does she love

1061
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 8: them because she was forced to love them? I mean,

1062
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 8: I don't know that we'll ever be able to untangle that.

1063
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, And Jason and I chatted so much about

1064
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 6: this during our coverage this season. But I think Demosel,

1065
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 6: maybe even more than any other character in the cast,

1066
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 6: is the vehicle through which you get to explore so

1067
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 6: much of the dead stuff that makes sci fi so

1068
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 6: good and why I love sci fi so much, so

1069
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 6: much of the philosophy, the big questions about what does

1070
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 6: it mean to be human? How do we find our purpose?

1071
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 6: And so it was artbreaking for me to watch Demrozel go.

1072
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 5: She will be missed. I will personally be missing her deeply.

1073
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 8: But I think that you know, if you're telling a

1074
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 8: really good story, and at a certain point, if you're

1075
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 8: honoring the story, the motivations of the characters that you've

1076
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 8: created will supersede the ending that you want, as is

1077
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 8: godlike being outside of the story. And so that's one

1078
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 8: of the reasons why I love breaking that so much,

1079
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 8: Because if you think about Walt and Jesse in their

1080
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 8: relationship right, there are so many times when Walt should

1081
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,280
Speaker 8: have cut Jesse loose, when it would have been to

1082
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:10,919
Speaker 8: his benefit to have cut Jesse loose, and he goes

1083
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 8: back for Jesse sort of again and again and again again.

1084
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 8: It's like this Achilles heel or he can't It's you know,

1085
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 8: he can have this honest relationship with Jesse in a

1086
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 8: way that he can't with his own son. And so

1087
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 8: what I like about when stories evolve in that way

1088
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 8: is that the character choices that you know, in this case,

1089
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 8: Vince and his fellow writers set up supersede what the

1090
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 8: plot should do, right, And that's when I think storytelling

1091
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 8: becomes really interesting. But I also think it's you can't

1092
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 8: really do that in a first season, and sometimes it

1093
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 8: almost takes until the third season to do that well,

1094
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 8: because you have the audience has to really understand the

1095
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 8: motivations of the characters and get really deep in there

1096
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 8: for those kind of choices that make sense where you say, ah,

1097
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 8: that doesn't that's not the most logical thing to do

1098
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 8: for the plot, but that makes sense for the character

1099
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 8: because as humans, we make choices all the time that

1100
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 8: our contrary to our own self interests. I mean, we

1101
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 8: do it all the time, all the time. And so

1102
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 8: I think a show becomes really alive when you can

1103
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 8: live with the characters long enough that you their choices

1104
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 8: make sense from a characters standpoint. Yeah.

1105
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, David, congratulations on a crazy season. Thank you

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01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 2: so much for joining us this was fun.

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01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 8: Please come back yeah anytime.

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01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 2: On the next episode of X ray Vision, We're diving

1109
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,760
Speaker 2: into Alien Earth episode seven. That's it for this episode.

1110
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening by.

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01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 2: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Concepts You, I'm

1112
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 2: Rosie Night and is a production of iHeart Podcast.

1113
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 3: Our executive produces a Joel Monique and Aaron Cortman.

1114
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.

1115
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 4: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wag.

1116
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 2: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme

1117
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 2: songs by Aaron Kaufman.

1118
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 3: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman

1119
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 4: And Heidi our discord moderator.