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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: If you're prepared to slaughter for people who offer no resistance,

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Speaker 2: that's why you're there. This is robbery gone according to plan,

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Speaker 2: not gone wrong.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. Police cold case units have

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Speaker 1: broken some of the country's most notorious murder cases, and

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Speaker 1: today we're talking to writer Michael Arntfield about Nashville's cold

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Speaker 1: Case Murder Squad and how it's lead investigator tracked down

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Speaker 1: the serial killers who terrorized the city in the eighties

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Speaker 1: and nineties. The story's unfold in his book, Monster City, Murder,

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Speaker 1: Music and Mayhem in Nashville's Dark Age. Tell me about

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Speaker 1: your main character. Start with how to pronounce his last name,

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Speaker 1: so I don't butcher it too much through this whole show.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, pat posted Glione, who's a New York guy

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Speaker 2: who ends up going to Nashville on vacation and falls

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Speaker 2: in love with the place and ends up then dedicating

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Speaker 2: his life to being a police officer there and just

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Speaker 2: happens to be the tip of the spear when it

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Speaker 2: comes to investigating this orient of serial sexual homicide that

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Speaker 2: just enveloped the place. And I mean his methods in

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Speaker 2: terms of linking crimes, in terms of prioritizing cold cases,

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Speaker 2: which at the time wasn't even really like a term,

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Speaker 2: but he put together a team that that was their mission,

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Speaker 2: and really this became the exemplar of what now would

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Speaker 2: be like a fully functional, dedicated cold case score.

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Speaker 1: Okay, tell me how you intersect with this story, How

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Speaker 1: did you find it? Why are you interested in it?

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Speaker 2: So after essentially retiring early as a police officer to

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Speaker 2: accept a tenured position at a university near Toronto, Western

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Speaker 2: University here in Canada, I then was fortunate enough to

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Speaker 2: be designated was known as a full Bright Stallar by

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Speaker 2: the US State Department. So this is a program that

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Speaker 2: it brings in foreign experts to guest lecture at American University.

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Speaker 2: So I got paired with Vanderbilt in Nashville, and as

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Speaker 2: I'm making preparations basically to move there for six months

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Speaker 2: or so, I was part of an online group of

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Speaker 2: current and former law enforcement who would be like basically

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Speaker 2: a list ser like a chat group. So someone would

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Speaker 2: have a tricky case and they'd put it out to

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Speaker 2: the group. There's about one hundred of us in the

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Speaker 2: group and say, yeah, has anybody ever encountered you know

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Speaker 2: this tool mark for instance, like a reddit basically like

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Speaker 2: a restricted reddit of law enforcement of forensic professionals. And

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Speaker 2: I remember there was a guy on there who was

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Speaker 2: a Nashville detective pat post at Gulian and who specialized

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Speaker 2: in cold cases, which I was doing at the time

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Speaker 2: as well. I had to think tank at the university

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Speaker 2: essentially where we I'd pull in people from various disciplines

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Speaker 2: and get their take on how to reapproach unsolved homicides.

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Speaker 2: And I said, Hey, I'm going to be in Nashville

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Speaker 2: for a while do you want to meet up? And

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Speaker 2: we met up, and I just thought it was going

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Speaker 2: to be a friendly conversation, and he starts talking about

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Speaker 2: these cases that I had never heard of. It's like

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Speaker 2: really twisted cases of tremendous criminological importance, because I mean

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Speaker 2: there was offender behavior years and patterns that I hadn't

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Speaker 2: really encountered before. So he was telling me this story,

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Speaker 2: and I realized right there and then that this is

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Speaker 2: And I had already written several books by then, but

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Speaker 2: I immediately realized this has to be the next book

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Speaker 2: in a series of books I was creating about extraordinary

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Speaker 2: criminal phenomenon in everyday cities, and that became Monster City,

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Speaker 2: Murdered Music in Mayhem, and Nashville's Dark Age, and so

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Speaker 2: all the cases in our actual cases, A lot of

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Speaker 2: it is secondary research I conducted or other interviews have done,

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Speaker 2: but it's largely Pat story.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's start with Pat's story. Where does he get

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Speaker 1: started here? I know that you said he came from

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Speaker 1: New York to Nashville, fell in love with the city.

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Speaker 1: What do you think was appealing to him about Nashville?

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Speaker 1: And when did he arrive?

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Speaker 2: So he arrived there, you know, he was working for

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Speaker 2: an HVAC business in New York can actually helped build

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Speaker 2: the World Trade Complex. You can believe that he comes

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Speaker 2: to Nashville and on vacation and something just about it

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Speaker 2: was just sort of a Goldilock city. It was just

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Speaker 2: like the right fit at that time. I mean, this

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Speaker 2: is before it's the massive, you know, tourist draw that

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Speaker 2: it is now. I mean, if you talk about the weather,

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Speaker 2: if you talk sort of about the geography, the culture,

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Speaker 2: and what was going on with New Country at the

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Speaker 2: time as well, it was just an interesting place to be.

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Speaker 2: And he thought, you know, I'm in the layd down

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Speaker 2: roots here and applies to the Metro Nashville Police Department

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Speaker 2: and works his way up to being homicide detectives. So

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Speaker 2: that puts us really sort of in the early eighties

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Speaker 2: at this point, and this is really when things get interesting.

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Speaker 1: Now, tell me about crime in the United States in

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Speaker 1: the early eighties, I mean, specifically in Nashville, what are

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Speaker 1: we seeing. Are we in the middle of a crime

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Speaker 1: wave or are we relatively low in this time period.

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Speaker 2: Nashville, like a lot of US cities at the time,

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Speaker 2: was going through some pretty significant changes in terms of crime.

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Speaker 2: I actually just edited a book or reviewed a book

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Speaker 2: that will be coming out soon that makes the argument

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Speaker 2: the nineteen seventy eight was actually the most significant year

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Speaker 2: in crime in American history. And I don't want to

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Speaker 2: spoiler or get into that, but I completely agreed with

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Speaker 2: that thesis in terms of when you look at new

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Speaker 2: types of offending, domestic terrorism, serial murder. I mean, this

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Speaker 2: really is when the concept of serial murder comes to

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Speaker 2: the forefront. So crime overall is up, but I think

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Speaker 2: it's it's the recognition that people just don't commit these

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Speaker 2: random crimes. It was improved understanding. I think of offender psychology.

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Speaker 1: What is the public talking about in this time period

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Speaker 1: as far as the serial killer, because this is the

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Speaker 1: decade not many years after when the FBI coins the

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Speaker 1: phrase serial killer. This is Ted Bundy time, right, So

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Speaker 1: is this really what people are starting to focus on, is, oh,

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Speaker 1: my god, there are people who who kill people at random,

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Speaker 1: you know, and for particular type of pleasure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean serial murder actually was coined in

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Speaker 2: Germany in the nineteen twenties, and they had done tremendous

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Speaker 2: research and had methods in identifying serial killers that were

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Speaker 2: decades ahead. Actually the FBI, and all those records are

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Speaker 2: obviously lost after World War two or during World War two,

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Speaker 2: but then the FBI sort of re establishes it in

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Speaker 2: the seventies. And yet by the eighties, this is a

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Speaker 2: law enforcement in the public at large woke up to

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Speaker 2: the fact that these people have always existed. Now we

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Speaker 2: have like a nomenclature, like we have terminology to describe them,

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Speaker 2: we understand how they work better. I mean, it's not

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Speaker 2: as though there was a sudden increase in them. I

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Speaker 2: mean you could say that by the early seventies that

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Speaker 2: was sort of when they were really proliferating, but certainly

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Speaker 2: by the eighties they weren't getting away with it as

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Speaker 2: much anymore. That's why you have a glut of people

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Speaker 2: caught in the eighties like Ted Bundy and Gaycy and

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Speaker 2: some of the better known names. That makes people think

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Speaker 2: that was sort of the quote unquote golden age of

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Speaker 2: the serial killer, when in fact it is just that

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Speaker 2: we were getting better at catching them.

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Speaker 1: I can't tell you, I mean, I primarily were in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, and I can't tell you how many

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Speaker 1: books I've seen naming different people or different groups of

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Speaker 1: people as America's first serial killers, which is all bullshit.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we have no idea that people have.

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Speaker 1: Been killing multiple people for sexual sadism, or whatever, the

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Speaker 1: motivation is, whatever you want to say.

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Speaker 3: That typical serial killer prototype is.

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Speaker 1: Forever and at thousands of years, and so every time

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Speaker 1: I see that, I just think that's not true. And

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Speaker 1: I almost always know someone who's done it earlier than

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Speaker 1: they have, So I think you're right. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: looking at a time period in the eighties where it's

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Speaker 1: really especially with Bundy, people are really going, oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: You know that not everyone looks like an Edmund Kemper,

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Speaker 1: who is a serial killer who you feel like you

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Speaker 1: can spot from far away. You have this man who

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Speaker 1: could be dating your daughter or live next door to you.

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Speaker 1: So that always felt like a turning point for me.

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Speaker 1: What is Pat as a detective and he's in Nashville,

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Speaker 1: When does he establish this cold case department? And you

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Speaker 1: know what is sort of the church actory of his

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Speaker 1: career there.

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Speaker 2: So it actually began sort of as a side project,

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Speaker 2: if you will, like again, during this inflection point that

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Speaker 2: you've described where people realize, look, listen, we've got to

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Speaker 2: figure this out. So he sort of puts together a

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Speaker 2: team and there's no official standing, but he's sort of

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Speaker 2: in the term in law enforcement is you start working

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Speaker 2: cold cases off the corner of your desk, so you've

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Speaker 2: got all these other files, but then you've got this

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Speaker 2: little figuratively and literally area of your workspace etched out

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Speaker 2: for as time permits. I'm going to work on this

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Speaker 2: as well, because I've got active cases, but I'm particularly interested.

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Speaker 2: It's not even necessarily assigned to him, but it's there

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Speaker 2: for the taking for those who are motivated. And that's

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Speaker 2: what always frustrated me. And the point in common that

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Speaker 2: we had is do you not have the intellectual curiosity?

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Speaker 2: And I know you're busy, but do you not, if

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Speaker 2: you're in this role, want to know who was waiting

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Speaker 2: inside that apartment after a precision break and that left

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Speaker 2: no sign of forced entry. Who's waiting for this girl

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Speaker 2: to come home and raped and killed her?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Do you not want to know who could operate that stealthily?

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Speaker 2: And do you not want to stop him before he

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Speaker 2: strikes again? And unfortunately there's a lot of investigators they're

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Speaker 2: just like, Okay, that's somebody else's problem. Well, no, it's

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Speaker 2: you signed up for this, and so you work it

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Speaker 2: off the corner of your desk until the resources are

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Speaker 2: allotted to these cases where you can actually start a

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Speaker 2: designated so they go by different names. Cold case squad

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Speaker 2: or Historical Crimes Unit is the language typically used now.

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Speaker 2: But this started out as something on the side until

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Speaker 2: it crystallized, and now they have a designated squad and

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Speaker 2: he's way in front of at least municipal police department.

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Speaker 2: He's way ahead of the game.

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Speaker 1: I know that we talk about do we want to

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Speaker 1: get these people off the street, And of course you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure, and you know that there's so much pressure

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Speaker 1: to take care of these cases.

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Speaker 3: They're clear and present dangers.

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Speaker 1: The one that they're making the headlines and the priority

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Speaker 1: might not be cases that are twenty or thirty or

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Speaker 1: forty yearsyears old, even ten years old. But what do

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Speaker 1: you think the value is in solving a case. We're

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Speaker 1: seeing a lot now with genetic genealogy, these cases that

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Speaker 1: are eighty years old, we're clearly the characters, people involved

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Speaker 1: with the story, you're all dead. Do you think there

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Speaker 1: is as much value providing closure to families, survivors or

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Speaker 1: whoever it is as it is solving current cases that

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Speaker 1: could be threats to the public.

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Speaker 3: Also.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so investigative genetic genealogy is I've said, the most

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Speaker 2: significant development in criminal investigation since the fingerprint, because unlike

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Speaker 2: other forms of forensic evidence, you can get a partial match,

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Speaker 2: so you may never get a full fingerprint, but it's

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Speaker 2: a starting point. It allows you to narrow the haystack

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Speaker 2: of possible offenders. That's how genetic genealogy works. I mean most, yeah,

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Speaker 2: sexual serial murders aren't uploading their ancestry results to ged

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Speaker 2: match or to family Tree DNA, but you know, a

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Speaker 2: fourth cousin they've never met may have done that. And

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Speaker 2: now we're into your bloodline and it's about a case

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Speaker 2: a week, and some yeah are like fifty sixty years

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Speaker 2: old and everybody's dead. But the communities and certainly the

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Speaker 2: police department still I have tremendous benefit from that. And

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Speaker 2: we're seeing a lot of people now also arrested. And

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Speaker 2: there's a case here in Toronto, two women again break

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Speaker 2: in sexual assault murders. This guy's name was never in

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Speaker 2: the thought. And this is saying in cold case investigations

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Speaker 2: usually the name is in the file. They've just misjudged

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Speaker 2: their role in the case. They're not a witness, they're

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Speaker 2: not sort of someone who's just a family friend. They

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Speaker 2: may actually be the main person of interest. So this

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Speaker 2: guy was never even on police radar. He would have

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Speaker 2: never been caught were it not for this method. And

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Speaker 2: that leads to the next question is what's he been doing?

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Speaker 1: Since?

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Speaker 2: I mean, you successfully break into two women's apartments, sexually

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Speaker 2: assault them in ritualistic fashion, I should say, and then

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Speaker 2: murder them brutally. You don't just stop. So he's been

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Speaker 2: on the land for almost forty years, what's he been

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Speaker 2: up to? And then the secondary investigation starts. What other

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Speaker 2: cases can weeld into him?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 2: There is tremendous value to it, so much so that

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Speaker 2: I've suggested that we're solving cases that it's being used

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Speaker 2: in more and more cases that are only a couple

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Speaker 2: of years old. Could we get to a point where,

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Speaker 2: you know, in the next generation, could actually retire the

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Speaker 2: term cold case because it wouldn't get to the point

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Speaker 2: where cases are with using this method.

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Speaker 1: So where does it make sense for us to start

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Speaker 1: in this sort of list of serial killers knowing we're

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Speaker 1: not going to make it through all of them, but

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of doing a good chronological dive into

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Speaker 1: that case, which one do we start with?

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Speaker 2: I think we start in part five of the book,

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Speaker 2: which is chapters twenty nine through thirty six, and work

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Speaker 2: our way backwards, and that's the fast food murders, which

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Speaker 2: very disturbing. These are the crimes of someone eventually identified

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Speaker 2: by pattis Paul Dennis Reid, who is actually a mass

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Speaker 2: murder or serial killer. So the definition of a serial

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Speaker 2: killer is someone who commits two or more murders at

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Speaker 2: separate times and places. That's it. But imagine if during

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Speaker 2: each of these murders there's multiple victims. And it's for

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Speaker 2: that reason that I've got calls from retired law enforcement

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Speaker 2: saying that, you know, we had a very similar kind

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Speaker 2: of still unsolved, you know, in for instance, in Indiana

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Speaker 2: and in the early eighties. Do you think he could

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Speaker 2: have been near Speedway, Indiana in the eighties because the

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Speaker 2: moo is bang on, and we know he was nomadic,

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Speaker 2: and I mean, how many people really were doing this?

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Speaker 2: I mean essentially his what he would do is he

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Speaker 2: would con his way into various fast food places, ice

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Speaker 2: cream parlors, McDonald's, other regional chains and typically near closing

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Speaker 2: time or at opening time, and would murder everybody there.

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Speaker 2: There were some indications that these were robberies, but he's

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Speaker 2: taking pocket change essentially, like a few hundred dollars and

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Speaker 2: shooting four teenage kids in the head and doing that.

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Speaker 2: It was never about the money. Originally from Texas, his

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Speaker 2: first known crime was a violent takeover robbery of a

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Speaker 2: steakhouse in Houston, Sies, so he his AMO was established

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Speaker 2: early on. He cases eateries, he doesn't care who's there,

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Speaker 2: and he's prepared to, you know, use tremendous violence. A

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Speaker 2: few years later, a bunch of kids again are murdered

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Speaker 2: at a bowling alley, again in Texas. It has all

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Speaker 2: the makings of what would later become his crimes in Nashville,

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Speaker 2: and another guy ended up going to death row for

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Speaker 2: those for those crimes, and Pat you know, was very

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Speaker 2: vocal saying you've got the wrong guy. And the guy

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Speaker 2: ended up dying on death row. He was never executed.

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Speaker 2: But we're looking at that as being connected to Paul's

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Speaker 2: industry as well. So when you ask what were people

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Speaker 2: talking about, certainly people were talking about those crimes whereby

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Speaker 2: any place could be struck next and you're going to

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Speaker 2: let your teenage son or daughter, you know, close up

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Speaker 2: a fast food place. And when this guy's on the loose,

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Speaker 2: it was very a very frightening time and a tremendous

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Speaker 2: pressure obviously on Pad and the police to find this

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Speaker 2: guy before he could strike again.

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Speaker 3: What years had he been in Texas and then went

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Speaker 3: to Nashville?

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Speaker 2: Do you know, we're not entirely sure when he arrived

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Speaker 2: in Nashville. And again his movements and the late eighties

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Speaker 2: early nineties are largely speculative. The Texas crimes were in

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Speaker 2: the eighties. Again, I've been contacted by a retired law

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Speaker 2: enforcement to think that he was responsible for possibly responsible

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Speaker 2: for what are known as the Burger Chef murders, which

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Speaker 2: were another mass murder that fit his mo o and

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Speaker 2: speedway Indiana. And then his crimes in Nashville has known

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Speaker 2: crimes for which he was eventually prosecuted are all in

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Speaker 2: early nineteen ninety seven, and he had chosen to come

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Speaker 2: to Nashville. It would seem based on things police found

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Speaker 2: once they identified him to be a country star, he

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Speaker 2: had never picked up an instrument in his life. They

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Speaker 2: found all kinds of creepy photos of him just posing

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Speaker 2: like he was going to be like an album cover.

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Speaker 2: He had taken a photograph of everywhere he had ever

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Speaker 2: been to photo document his time in Nashville, like he

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Speaker 2: would take a photograph of of a toilet that he used,

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Speaker 2: he would take a photograph of a car that he bought,

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Speaker 2: and the just photographs of everything. Surprisingly not his crime.

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Speaker 2: So he kills the manager of a Captain D's, which

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Speaker 2: is a regional restaurant in the South. He murders a

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Speaker 2: number of teenagers Adam McDonald's, and then his final crimes

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Speaker 2: involve the kidnap of two female employees of a Baskin Robinson.

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Speaker 2: He takes them actually to a remote location and rates

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Speaker 2: and murders them. And this is really where he begins

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Speaker 2: to make mistakes, and obviously the forensic evidence leads the

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Speaker 2: police to Paul Dennis Reid. And then that's where the

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Speaker 2: second investigation in all these cases starts with where else

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Speaker 2: has this guy been?

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Speaker 1: I assume they looked at him in connection with the

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Speaker 1: yogurt chop murders in ninety one in Austin, Texas. Sounds

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Speaker 1: so similar.

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Speaker 2: That's another one. He's one of maybe two strong people

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Speaker 2: of interest and again in Texas. So I mean, you've

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Speaker 2: got this glut of restaurant mass murders in Texas when

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Speaker 2: he's known to be living there. Yeah, one of them

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Speaker 2: is somebody else is wrongfully convicted in my view, which

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Speaker 2: leaves him free then to roam the country. Whether it's

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Speaker 2: or not he's in Indiana, that's unanswerable question at this point.

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Speaker 2: But then he ends up in Nashville because he wants

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Speaker 2: to get in on a new country fad, and obviously

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Speaker 2: that doesn't work, so he goes back to what he knows,

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Speaker 2: which is murdering kids.

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Speaker 1: I had seen a documentary series about the Speedway murders,

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Speaker 1: which was actually, I will say this is an aside, one

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Speaker 1: of the more interesting true crime documentary series I've ever seen.

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Speaker 1: But it was the Burger Chef murders where they had

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Speaker 1: actors portraying the victims and they have a discussion about

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Speaker 1: what's about to happen to them, and they start like

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Speaker 1: theorizing who all these you know, who the killer could be,

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Speaker 1: because in that case there seemed to be so many suspects.

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Speaker 1: Witnesses were seeing different things and you know, and I'm

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Speaker 1: sure he's mentioned I don't remember. In this countless list

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Speaker 1: of suspects that they go through. It was one of

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Speaker 1: the most I don't know if it was the best,

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Speaker 1: but it was one of the most creative interpretations of

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Speaker 1: a true crime story. So that's the only reason I

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Speaker 1: know that is you know, and that so that when

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Speaker 1: you were starting to talk about murders and fast food,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking, I wonder if speedways and there's somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So tired Indiana State Police detective actually contacted me

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Speaker 2: about that, and he had worked that case for years

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Speaker 2: and did not know the case of Paul dnis Street.

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Speaker 2: So it's interesting these I mean, as recently as the

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Speaker 2: twenty twenties, You've got this information out there and just

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Speaker 2: no one's really put it all together that someone who

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Speaker 2: knows the Bergerschef murders case intimately had no idea of

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Speaker 2: the Captain D's or the McDonald's in Nashville twenty years later.

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Speaker 2: We got to look at him for that. We got

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Speaker 2: to look at him. Obviously, he is the lead person

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Speaker 2: of interest in the Austin yogurt shop murders, which are

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Speaker 2: very very similar to his final crimes in Nashville at

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Speaker 2: the Boston Robbins.

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Speaker 1: I just got chills when you were explaining all of

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Speaker 1: the different scenarios thinking about yogurt Chop, which is I

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Speaker 1: would say one of the most traumatizing stories, you know

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Speaker 1: murders that have happened in Austin history for sure, and

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Speaker 1: we had Kenneth Allen McDuff.

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Speaker 3: So that's really saying something.

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Speaker 1: What did Pats see in this case in Reid that

387
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Speaker 1: other people didn't see? Was he making connections or tell

388
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Speaker 1: me what his involvement when the cold case part of

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Speaker 1: this came in.

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Speaker 2: Well, the cold case part is, I guess what are

391
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Speaker 2: the crimes? Was irresponsible for these? These all happened in

392
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Speaker 2: relatively quick succession. So pass working again these other cold

393
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Speaker 2: cases off the corner of his desk, and you've got

394
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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, this monster who comes to town

395
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Speaker 2: and just goes on an absolute rampage. So I mean

396
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Speaker 2: he's making mistakes at each one. Obviously, they're connecting these

397
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Speaker 2: crimes together very quickly. The mos identical, they're all very

398
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Speaker 2: specifically targeted locations, similar caliber firearm used in all of

399
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Speaker 2: the execution style murders. I mean, eventually they get on

400
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Speaker 2: to read and nobody's really discussed is what were his motivations.

401
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 2: Ostensibly it's robbery. I can't stand it when people use

402
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Speaker 2: the term robbery gone bad. If you're prepared to slaughter

403
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Speaker 2: four people working there who offer no resistance, that's why

404
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 2: you're there. That's why you're there. There's a robbery gone

405
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 2: according to Plant, not gone wrong. So the same thing

406
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Speaker 2: with burglars. We now recognize that there's five subtypes of

407
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Speaker 2: sexually motivated home burglaries where they're helping somebody's inside and

408
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Speaker 2: maybe things get taken in, maybe they don't, but they're

409
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Speaker 2: taken typically as an afterthought, or they're taken as souvenirs

410
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Speaker 2: for the sex crime that occurs in there, not because

411
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Speaker 2: they want to fence the stuff or because it's worth money.

412
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Speaker 2: Richard Ermirez was a really good example of that, where

413
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Speaker 2: he would target homes he knew were occupied to rape

414
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Speaker 2: and murder whoever was in there, and then he would

415
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Speaker 2: take stuff and then discard it because just either to

416
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Speaker 2: throw off police or just because it was initially taken

417
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Speaker 2: as a souvenir of his crime, and then he realized

418
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Speaker 2: it could maybe implicate him, so he discarded it. So

419
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Speaker 2: those were never about robber. They were about serial murder

420
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Speaker 2: and pulled dentistrate is the same and this guy's There's

421
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Speaker 2: not a single sort of label that you can put

422
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Speaker 2: on this guy. But at the end of the day,

423
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Speaker 2: he's a sadist. He derives great pleasure from the suffering

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Speaker 2: and terror of others. And that was really a hallmark

425
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Speaker 2: of the Bowling Alley crime in Texas, where he was

426
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Speaker 2: basically whispering things in people's ears before he murdered them

427
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Speaker 2: to taunt them.

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Speaker 1: How many people, how many murders have been connected definitive him?

429
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Speaker 1: I'm sure there are many others that they're working on,

430
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Speaker 1: but what is the final number?

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Speaker 3: And is he still alive?

432
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Speaker 2: He died in custody not too long ago, actually, But

433
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Speaker 2: the ones definitively linked to him are the Captain D's,

434
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Speaker 2: the McDonald's, and the thirty one Flavor slash Basket Robbins

435
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 2: in Nashville. The other earlier crimes for which he was

436
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 2: convicted were violent takeover robberies of similar institutions, but he

437
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 2: didn't murder anybody. The ones that he's suspected of murdering

438
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 2: people are still officially unsolved or have been wrongfully linked

439
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 2: to somebody else.

440
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 1: Tell me the things right now before we get to

441
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: another case of pats. Tell me the things right now

442
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 1: that help make the connections like in Israel, keys who

443
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: just traversed the country Alaska to Texas. Essentially, how do

444
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 1: we make those connections. I could see in the eighties

445
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: and maybe even the nineties a lack of computer connections,

446
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 1: you know, between all of these jurisdictions. I assume that's changed,

447
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,400
Speaker 1: and you can plug in an m and some other

448
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: basic data and start making almost like a map of

449
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: where these cases might be similar.

450
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 2: So the system you're talking about, the Violent Criminal Apprehension

451
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 2: Program or VIACAP run out of the Justice Department. I

452
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 2: mean that in theory, that would be a good way

453
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,959
Speaker 2: of tracking MOS or fender characteristics between you know, vastly

454
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: separated jurisdictions. But it's a voluntary program. You don't have

455
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: to fill out that questionnaire. So a lot of people

456
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 2: wants the case is solved, they move on, and they

457
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: don't submit afy CAP form. So there's tons of blind spots,

458
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 2: so you can't necessarily rely on that. So for years

459
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,919
Speaker 2: that was a huge hindrance because people weren't submitting it,

460
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 2: or you get false positives or what have you, So

461
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,719
Speaker 2: a guy like Read could roam the country and do

462
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 2: this despite the fact that you know, these crimes obviously

463
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 2: have a very specific signature to them. But you mentioned

464
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 2: is real keys. That's I talk about him at length

465
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: of my last book, How to Solve a Cold Case.

466
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 2: I mean that guy was the ultimate sort of like Read,

467
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: a sadist who turned murder into a hub. And that's

468
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 2: maybe a good after we lead into we can talk

469
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 2: about another case from the book, Michael Scott Magliolo. And

470
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 2: there's another weird fast food connection here as well, because

471
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 2: this guy was a McDonald's manager who on his days

472
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: off would act as what was known as a lumper.

473
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 2: So Nashville is a big trucking hub longhle trucking. So

474
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 2: a lumper is somebody at the time who would essentially

475
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: offer themselves out as a hand for a trucker in

476
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 2: exchange for a ride, so basically a hitchhiker who then

477
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: will help the trucker at the destination either offload or

478
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: load up whatever they're picking up or dropping off. So

479
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 2: he would hitch rides to random places where he had

480
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 2: no connection. He was just a stranger in town for

481
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: the day and murder random people and then hitch a

482
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 2: ride back doing the same thing.

483
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 1: So how many people is he connected to? And what

484
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: a Pat what was his so far about that case?

485
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 2: So the span of Magliola's crimes are pretty long. Were

486
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 2: not entirely sure how many people he killed for certain,

487
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 2: because again his movements couldn't be tracked and he wasn't

488
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 2: very cooperatve. But I mean, we know for sure between

489
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven. So you mentioned the book starts in

490
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five, which is officially before Pat starts working

491
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: in these cases, but then we introduced him as a

492
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: character further on in the book, so he's active for

493
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,719
Speaker 2: sure between seventy seven and ninety one. We know of

494
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 2: at least two, more likely ten women that he raped

495
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 2: and murdered across six states between that time. So he

496
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 2: received fifty years in prison in Tennessee and then fifteen

497
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 2: years to life for seven murders in Ohio and nineteen

498
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 2: ninety three, So he sentenced in nineteen ninety three, with

499
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: the murders obviously date back before that. So this is

500
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: one of the first real cold cases that Pat starts

501
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: looking into, and he's solving obviously because these crimes sort

502
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 2: of pre date his detective work. So he starts working

503
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: the Magliolo what would later be the Magliola murders off

504
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: the corner of his desk, as we say, and then

505
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,239
Speaker 2: eventually it's really weird how he gets caught. They had

506
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,479
Speaker 2: a partial fingerprint at one of the hot Nashville scenes,

507
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: and he would basically just intermittently run it through the

508
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: database and there will not be any hits until Magneol

509
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 2: got sloppy and he got picked up joy writing with

510
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 2: a bunch of girls in the car, and we don't

511
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: know what he had intended for them, but it gets

512
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 2: stopped by the cops joy Writing and it gets pinched

513
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: for a duy. So he gets printed and put into

514
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: the system. Pat checks again. So this is a lesson

515
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: in tenacity, right, so he knows this guy's going to

516
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: screw up, keeps checking the print, keeps checking the print,

517
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: and lo and behold, Magluold's processed into the system now

518
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: in ninety one, and they get the hit and then

519
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 2: the case gets put together from that. So I mentioned

520
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 2: earlier investigated genetic genealogy is like a fingerprint, and then

521
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 2: you can have a partial match and it just takes

522
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 2: time to get the full match. And that's exactly how

523
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 2: this case came to be closed.

524
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: So what was Pat's insane with this particular case with

525
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: this offender because he had just this partial print from

526
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: one crime scene. Was he thinking this is not somebody

527
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: who just stopped at this one scene. Was that his

528
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: sort of gut feeling about it?

529
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean his gut feeling. So he understood, particularly

530
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 2: cold case sexual homicides, that they will not stop. It

531
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 2: is repetitive, episodic behavior. He knew that even if he

532
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: didn't link him to another scene, So like a scene

533
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: to scene match what you can either have through fingerprints

534
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: or you can have typically by DNA, that he would

535
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: be caught for something else because people who engage in

536
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: this behavior it's antisocial. I mean he was an actual psychopath,

537
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 2: but who engage in this type of conduct are involved

538
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 2: in all spectra of criminality. So and he was right,

539
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 2: So the hit is not on another murder, it's on

540
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 2: a dui h. And so I mean, what an interesting

541
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 2: way into now solving the case just from and had

542
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 2: he not gotten sloppy, I mean you shut it a

543
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 2: thin company using that in oh what we call a

544
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 2: commuter killer, somebody who murders outside of where they like,

545
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 2: far away from where they live, like in Israel, keys,

546
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 2: knowing that they're not going to be on the local

547
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: list of sex offenders or local persons of interest, and

548
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 2: they're going to be long gone and back home by

549
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 2: the time and even the body's found. So he could

550
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: have gone on for years using this ruse, and because

551
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: he got sloppy, pat was all over.

552
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: I know that there is a hope among some law

553
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: enforcement that AI is only going to be able to

554
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: help with genetic genealogy, being able to call everything and

555
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: pull it together faster than these genealogists who have to

556
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: look through thousands and thousands of trees, and I can

557
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: only hope that that's going to be the case.

558
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, I have talked to some genealogies who work

559
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: for police departments who have said that that that would

560
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: be that would speed up their work exponentially because they

561
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 2: had takes. Particularly if you're dealing with a suspect who

562
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: is from a remote community, or there's something called endogamy involved,

563
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: and that is typically seen where you have these closed

564
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: community where people are having children who there's not a

565
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: lot of genetic deviation, so you get a lot of

566
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: feedback loops sort of because you know you've got a

567
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: lot of cousins marrying each other for instance, and becomes confusing.

568
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, ai would would sort that out pretty quickly.

569
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: I'm part of a group as well that uses sort

570
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: of an early version of ai AD is its a

571
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: computer algorithm to basically, we've created our own violent criminal

572
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: Apprehension program, and your listeners can go to a murder

573
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: data dot org where their Murder Accountability Project based out

574
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: of Metro DC, and every murder that's occurred really since

575
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four is in there. Then you can find

576
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: you can search by a year, you can search by

577
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: a police department, you can search by a murder weapon,

578
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,719
Speaker 2: you can search by age of the victim. There's hundreds

579
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 2: of different search parameters. And what we've done is we

580
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 2: trained software to look for patterns in cities and counties

581
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 2: according to similar mo. That's the difference between the Murder

582
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: Cannability Project and ViCAP in that ViCAP only has about

583
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: forty percent of unsolved murders in there. We've got all

584
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: of them since nineteen seventy four. So we've found our

585
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: software has already found a couple of matches, and we've

586
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: alerted law enforcement to those links. One is an active

587
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: investigation in Chicago now fifty one connected strangulations that was

588
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: the subject of an ID series called The Hunt for

589
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: the Chicago Strangler that's ongoing. We found a match in

590
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 2: Cleveland that suspect was later arrested. We found a match

591
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: in Gary, Indiana, and he ended up being Darren dion Van,

592
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: a serial killer who admitted to the murders in Gary

593
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: that our software first linked to him before police did so.

594
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: I have a teacher true crime podcast course at the

595
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: University of Texas. I have them listen to a podcast

596
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: called Black Girl Gone, and the host did a two

597
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: parter on between two thousand and one and twenty eighteen,

598
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: fifty one women were found either strangled or aphixiated. That's it, right,

599
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: Tell me again, just because I know my class will

600
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: want to know, and probably our listeners.

601
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 3: Will want to know.

602
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: So were you saying that your database is making connections

603
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: between those fifty one because my understanding was, at least

604
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: from that podcast, which is still a couple of years old,

605
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: was that police were sort of refusing to believe that

606
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: these were all connected, and they were sort of dismissed,

607
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: many of them because they were black women or some

608
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: more sex workers.

609
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 3: You know.

610
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we sent the chief of detectives a letter.

611
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: By twenty seventeen, when we our software determined that pattern

612
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: and I'm quoting, there is no active unidentified serial killer

613
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: in the city of Chicago. That was their response. And

614
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: then there was I think Vice Media did a story

615
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,959
Speaker 2: you can probably still find online, and more and more

616
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: people were sort of talking. We sent further correspondence. They

617
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: brought in a new Chief of Detectives who then you

618
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: acknowledged that there was no denying that, and he then

619
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: also appears in that series, which is sort of the

620
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: first real investigative documentary into how that happened. So there

621
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 2: is there are some people of interest, and I can

622
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: tell you it's no longer a secret. Darren deon Van,

623
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 2: who I just mentioned, has admitted to being in Chicago

624
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: at times that correspond with those murders, And the thought

625
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: is is he responsible? Here's the weirdest thing of fifty

626
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 2: one No DNA, so we can't necessarily say they're all

627
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: one offender. So is he responsible for the black women?

628
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 2: Are we looking at a separate offender for the Latina victims.

629
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: There does not tend to be typically a lot of

630
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: variability with it in terms of age or ethnicity among

631
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: serial killers who tend to have a preferred victim type

632
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: and they don't deviate from that. So it could be

633
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: talking to two separate offenders, one of which may very

634
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: well be Darren deon Van. He's admitted also to killing

635
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: many other people and paraphrasing, but has numerous other victims

636
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: in Illinois.

637
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: He said, wow, okay, well let's get back to one

638
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: of Pat's cases. Well, this is probably going to be

639
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: our last one, and we want to talk about the

640
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: Restop murders, So tell me about that case.

641
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: So the rest stop murders were a series of trucking

642
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: related crimes at or near trucker rest stops in metro Nashville,

643
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: but as well as other areas suspected to be in Alabama, Indiana, Georgia, Illinois,

644
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Texas. Because again we're dealing with

645
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: a nomadic commuter style killer. His name was Bruce Mendenhall,

646
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: and this was a real cat and mouse game that

647
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: he and Pat played, and in fact, after he was arrested,

648
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: he basically began plotting Pat's murder from prison. He tried

649
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: to get a hitman on the headside to take him out.

650
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 2: That's how unrelenting this guy was.

651
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: Well, tell me about what these cases were like, so

652
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: and tell me about Mendenholl and what we know about him,

653
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: and kind of what you know unfolds with these cases,

654
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: and then what gets Pat involved? What are the clues

655
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: that lead him to this being a serial killer?

656
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: Pat gets involved much like Michael Scott Magliolo because then

657
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: I was foolish enough to dump a body in his jurisdiction,

658
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: and then that puts him on the Pat's radar, and

659
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 2: then these other cases start coming into focus all over

660
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: the place. He's convicted of only two murders, but he's

661
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: suspected at least nine others. And basically his AMMO is

662
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: not unlike unfortunately, some other or at least four hundred

663
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: that we know because the FBI has created profiles for

664
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: them as part of what's known as the Highway Serial

665
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: Killing Initiative. At least four hundred other truckers have employed

666
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 2: a similar MO, where basically they lure women, often sex

667
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: trade workers, who are strolling rest stops, which is why

668
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: he's known as as the rest stop Killer, into the

669
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: truck and then murders them, drives into other locations and

670
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: dumps them, and his AMMO became increasingly sort of brutal.

671
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 2: Whereby the Nashville victim he had actually post mortem, she

672
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: had a tattoo on her body, and he cut it

673
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 2: out to keep it. A lot of people don't necessarily

674
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: know this distinction. A souvenir taken from a crime is

675
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 2: typically a personal item, so a piece of jewelry, the

676
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: victims driver's license, something to look at later, like as

677
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: a twisted trink at. A trophy is a living tissue,

678
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: so a lock of hair, an eyeball like Charles Aldridge,

679
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: the Dallas eyeball slayer from Texas. Maybe you know that case.

680
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 2: And then in this case he starts taking before he's

681
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 2: caught cutting out flesh containing a tattoo to preserve.

682
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 1: I want to go back. I was a little startled

683
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: by something you said. Did you say four hundred different

684
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: truck drivers have been suspected or convicted or whatever of

685
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: attacking women?

686
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 3: Is that right?

687
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: Four hundreds still out there? So this task force that

688
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 2: the FBI has looked at And there was a book

689
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: just published on this that I'm quoted in a fair

690
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,959
Speaker 2: bit by a former FBI assistant director called long Haul

691
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 2: and it looks at a lot of these cases. So

692
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: there's four hundred plus UNSUBB profile. So there'll be a

693
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 2: group of murders that they can say these victims have

694
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: common characteristics, the crime scenes have common characteristics, and this

695
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,479
Speaker 2: will be say offender unknown offender A. Then there's another

696
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 2: group of murders, say in another part of the country,

697
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: that they believe to be attributed to another offender, will

698
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: call that UNSUBB or offender B. And yeah, there's about

699
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 2: four hundred then separate people. They don't know who they are,

700
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 2: but their crimes have been sort of particularized by the

701
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 2: FBI in that fashion.

702
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 1: Where do you think the Israel keys type serial killer,

703
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: the long haul trucker type killer or serial killer, where

704
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: do they fit in with the theories of geographic profiling.

705
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, these are not people who are

706
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: constrained to one area where they feel most comfortable, unless

707
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: we say it's a truck. But with keys, he just

708
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: I mean he was hiding backpacks and bundles all over

709
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: the place. He just seemed to be such an outlier.

710
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the concern is we don't know what

711
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 2: we don't know. We don't know how many of these

712
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 2: highly nomadic again, commuter killers are out there. So the

713
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 2: term commuter offender is derived from the geographic profiling matrix

714
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: of the four types of offenders who navigate their space

715
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 2: according to a certain what we call psychogeography. I mean,

716
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 2: another really interesting one. I don't know if you've read

717
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 2: the book The Man from the Train, it's about the

718
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 2: first Israel piece. So Israel keys is the nomadic killer

719
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: and the age of commercial air travel. But Paul Miller,

720
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: who's the suspected murderer in this case. I mean, this

721
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: was a guy who just rode the rails like a hobo,

722
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: and wherever the train stopped, he would go in and

723
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: kill entire families with an AX. He's got victims all

724
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: over the US, and we're talking like late eighteen hundreds,

725
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: so that they had absolutely nothing to work with. And

726
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 2: there's LinkedIn now to murders back in Europe as well,

727
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 2: but that's just information that's sort of come to light now,

728
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 2: I mean one hundreds some years later, So we don't know.

729
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: I mean we just hope, like Mendenhall, that they make

730
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 2: a mistake in a jurisdiction where somebody's paying attention and

731
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: that they've got the curiosity then go looking for or

732
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 2: like Magliola, you know, he was tenacious about that, kept

733
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 2: checking the print knowing that somewhere sometime this guy would

734
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 2: it up in the system.

735
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: Now, what did Pat do with that case? When mendon

736
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: Hall and the rest stop was that fingerprinting?

737
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: Also there's a combination of techniques, But this is really

738
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 2: the climax of the book in that he drove a

739
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 2: very unique truck, like a canary yellow truck that stood

740
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: out and there was some witnesses you could describe the truck.

741
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: And Pat is driving down the highway one day outside

742
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: Nashville and it passes him, and he turns around and

743
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 2: pulls them over, and it basically finds there's blood in

744
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: there and finds what we call like a rape kit

745
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: or a kill kit.

746
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you've got to be kidding me. I mean,

747
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, I was thinking about this. You're going to

748
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: not think this is the perfect analogy, I bet, But

749
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: do you feel like you carry on Pat's work? I mean,

750
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: it's such a big scale though, with the database that

751
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: you all have created where you are trying to make

752
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: these connections, and of course you're using different types of

753
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: technology really pooling together almost like kind of crowdsourcing. Pat

754
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 1: was doing it at a smaller level, but still in

755
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 1: such an effective way. I mean, it's still working off

756
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 1: instinct too.

757
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: Working off instinct understanding that it's a big country. These

758
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: people again often defy conventional wisdom about serial killers that

759
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 2: they don't just stick to a certain hunting territory. So

760
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: we're seeing through these cases criminal I don't use the

761
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: rump criminal profile, the criminal analytics coming of age. Where

762
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: these cases reflect are microcosms of an improved understanding of

763
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: how what makes these sicicos tick that was occurring at

764
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: the same time in other fields, like in the academia

765
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 2: or you know, at the highest levels and at the FBI.

766
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: And he's actually out there on the street, you know,

767
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: doing this and by the time he catches Mendon Hall

768
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: at the wheel and opens up Badgism and gets his

769
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 2: door open, they find three hundred items in there. Rifle, knives, handcuffs, gloves,

770
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: you know, black tape, night stick, sex toys, DNA of

771
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 2: five different women and again, we don't necessarily know who

772
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 2: some of those women are. So well, he's been all

773
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: over the place with this kill kit, and he gets

774
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 2: them in the truck and they're never seen again.

775
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: The more that I talk to authors like you and

776
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: work with you know, Paul Hols, who helped solve the

777
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: Golden State killer case, the more I learn about what

778
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: I don't know about serial killers.

779
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 3: And I think a lot of us probably feel like that.

780
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: Paul does not believe in the serial killer triad, you know,

781
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: bed wedding and fire starting and the harming animals. Now,

782
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: he said, the harming animals is a big one, but

783
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: then he said maybe some credence in the setting fires,

784
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 1: but he said the bed wedding is like a non

785
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: starter for him. I will say this, I had always

786
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: believed that when a serial killer stops killing, either he

787
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 1: moved and we haven't made that connection, or he died,

788
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: or he's in prison and there was no DNA to

789
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: run against it. It never occurred to me until I

790
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: read about the Golden State killer case that sometimes these

791
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: guys kind of age out, they stop for whatever reason.

792
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: And then I talked to an author who said, well,

793
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: life changes for them. They'll get married, they have kids,

794
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: something happens, and something changes, And I guess I've always

795
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: just thought this was an overwhelming sense of I've got

796
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: to continue doing this until I die, and that doesn't

797
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: seem to be the case for everyone. So it teaches

798
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: me a lesson.

799
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, first of all, Paul's right. The McDonald triad

800
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: as it's known, has been widely discredited. I mean, maybe

801
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,399
Speaker 2: bed wedding is correlated with some serial killers, but it's

802
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 2: not causative. And it maybe correlated because the thought actually

803
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 2: is that childhood trauma is what leads to the development

804
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 2: of what are known as paraphilias, which are the disordered

805
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 2: erotic attachments to often violent things. You can think of

806
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: some conditions that end in philia that that person may

807
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: be pretty dangerous, but they accumulate these over the lifetime

808
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 2: and that's where fire starting comes in. So fire starting

809
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: maybe pyrophilics or an arousal from starting fires that then

810
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: leads to them exploring other ways of other fetishism that

811
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 2: they end up actually then hurting people, and then it

812
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 2: becomes hurting people is a sex act. But yeah, I mean,

813
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: Dennis Rayder summed up the fact that you know this

814
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: isn't necessarily a purely linear trajectory, and they don't stop.

815
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 2: He said he would have liked to have kept killing people,

816
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: but he just got too busy. Yeah, that his kids

817
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 2: got to an age where he's running them around and

818
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 2: things were busy at work, and so he didn't have

819
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 2: time for his hobby anymore. The same as somebody you

820
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 2: know doesn't get on the bike or get out on

821
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 2: the golf course as much as they used to. Like

822
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: it's a stranger comparison, but that's really what this is

823
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: to them, and they ultimately can't perform at the pace

824
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 2: that they used to.

825
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 1: It's pretty incredible learning. All of this tell me the

826
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: rest of Pat's story. How long does he run this

827
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,240
Speaker 1: cold case squad in Nashville.

828
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 2: By the early two thousands, late nineties, early two thousands,

829
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 2: and this is consistent with other police departments across the board.

830
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 2: As soon as DNA becomes a thing, so Cotis the

831
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: US goes online in ninety eight. In Canada ninety nine,

832
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: this is really where cold case units start to crystallize,

833
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: because now they have a tool. Rather than just look

834
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: through old boxes and come up with new hunches, now

835
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 2: they have a tool where they can start testing exhibits

836
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: against and that's where the salts start coming in at

837
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: a new pace. And so by the early two thousands,

838
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 2: much like elsewhere, the Metro cold case unit is up

839
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 2: and running officially, you know, it's sort of been unofficial

840
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 2: under his wing. And then he retires, you know, a

841
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 2: short time later and leaves it in good hands. And

842
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 2: he went on to work for the District Attorney's office

843
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 2: as an investigator, and then he's also now got his

844
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: own show on investigation Discovery.

845
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 3: Wow, he must be very proud of this book.

846
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: I'm assuming, yeah, you know what, we lost touch, but

847
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 2: I'd like to think, you know, as a pretty faithful

848
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 2: summation of his life's work and his contributions to cold cases.

849
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: And he's the first thing. He's a humble guy, and

850
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: he's the first to say, like, you know, he had

851
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 2: a great team, and he did, but you know, every

852
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 2: team needs needs a strong leader, and certainly he was

853
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 2: that well.

854
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, in a time period where

855
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: I certainly think the public questions the integrity of the police,

856
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: it's nice to read a story where you have a

857
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: person who is not.

858
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 3: Letting cases go.

859
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: They could be decades old and he still thinks about

860
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: these cases, and he still sees the value. And you know,

861
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: I think you and I both certainly wish that more

862
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: investigators either have given the resources where they can investigate

863
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: these cases, or you know, really really became passionate about it,

864
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 1: because these stories do matter, even if all the players

865
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 1: are gone.

866
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 3: You know, the stories do matter.

867
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 2: The stories do matter. You're right, And I mean to

868
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 2: quote another I think I make the comparisons in the book,

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Speaker 2: but to quote another legendary albeit fictional, cold case investigator,

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Speaker 2: Harry Bosh, Michael Connolly's character and his motto is everybody

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Speaker 2: counts or nobody counts. So you don't get to pick

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Speaker 2: and choose your cases. These all deserve to be solved.

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Speaker 2: And like I said, I'm hopeful, with between AI and

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Speaker 2: investigative genetic genealogy, that the term Col's case will be

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00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 2: obsolete in our lifetime.

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Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

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Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

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00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. And don't forget There are

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00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

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00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

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00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already.

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00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 3: This has been an exactly right production.

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Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi. Our associate producer is

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Speaker 1: Christina Chamberlain.

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00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is

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00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 3: our composer, artwork by Nick Toga.

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Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer.

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00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More Wicked and

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00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wicked World Birds Pod