WEBVTT - Paul Polman: Forget About a COP28 ‘Magic Wand' 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.760 Welcome to In the City, Bloomberg's podcast, connecting you to 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.600 the conversations and the stories shaping the world of finance 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:12.320 and Francin. 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:14.000 Laqua and I'm David Merritt and this. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:15.560 Week conversation with Paul Pullman. 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.320 Yeah, Paul was chief executive officer of course, of Unilever 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:22.360 for ten years from two thousand and nine to twenty nineteen. 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.560 Before that, he worked for Procter and Gamble and Nessla 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:28.840 and he's the author of net Positive, How courageous companies 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.360 thrive by giving more than they take. 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:34.480 And I have to say, throughout his years in charge 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.159 of company, he's always cared about sustainability. So, Paul, we've 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:38.839 been trying to get you on the podcast for a 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:41.680 while and this might be the perfect time, with COP 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:44.839 twenty eight in Dubai kicking off. Do you have high 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.200 expectations or any expectations about what can be achieved at COP? 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.519 Yeah, there will certainly be things that can be achieved, 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.000 but I think we have to manage our expectations. In fact, 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.880 I've been at about fifteen cops or more, and anytime 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.760 we have this COP, I issue a little bit of 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:03.040 a warning before that we do have to manage our 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.639 expectations because we think that this will be this magic 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:08.800 want that all of a sudden solve solid climate change problems, 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.000 our financing problems. That's not going to happen, especially at 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:14.720 this COP, which is a very difficult COP in a 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.840 country that is still heavily dependent on fossil fuel itself, 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:20.959 and many people are rightfully so worried about that. But 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.319 having said that, we made good progress in Paris when 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:26.120 we bent the curve from four and a half degrees 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.840 to below four degrees was the COP twenty one and 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.520 the Paris Agreement clearly stating that we want to get 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:35.360 to about one and a half degrees that we can 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:37.640 afford for a livable planet if you want to. Then 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:41.560 Glasgow came it bent the curve a little bit further 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.240 and now we're still projecting to about two point seven, 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.600 but coming from about four and a half is a 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.880 good progress. So what we now need to do is 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.040 this is the first time since Paris that what you 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.520 have is what we call a global stock take, which 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.800 is where all of the countries since Glasgow until now 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:59.880 put in their submissions of if they've made progress towards 0:01:59.920 --> 0:02:02.800 these targets or not. Then the reality is we're still 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.720 far off track. Although there is some progress, we're clearly 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:08.920 not moving fast enough. And as I've pointed out many times, 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.240 we are creating the problems at the fastest speed than 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.840 we're applying the solutions. So where can we expect progress 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:19.880 at the cop The first thing is getting into a 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:23.600 greener world will require investments, So that's three to four 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:26.720 trillion dollars that will be needed to stay around to 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.120 one and a half degrees by all means possible still 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:31.160 if we decide to do so. So there will be 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.760 a lot of talk about financing. Can we come up 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.320 with a fund of loss and damage for especially the 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:40.160 emerging markets. Can we finally agree on the Green Fund, 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:45.760 which is this hundred billion that was agreed already fifteen 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.799 years ago but still not pulled together. Can we get 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.720 a reform or a further progress on the reforms of 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:57.600 the financial institutions, so it's called the Bridgetown Initiative IMF 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:01.320 World Bank. Can we free up funds to really accelerate 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:03.520 the conversion in emerging markets where now all the new 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:06.600 emissions are So that's the financing piece, and then there 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.520 are two other pieces. One obviously is the greening of society, 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:14.320 which basically means that we need to triple the investments 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.399 in green energy and solar and winter will on track 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:19.400 to do that, but we need to get tripled by 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.680 twenty thirty, and we need to double the energy efficiency. 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:23.959 So that's a really long list. 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:25.640 For Ryan, you just said it's going to be a 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:30.560 difficult cop So that long list of goals is it 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:32.919 in any way achievable in Dubai. 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.560 I think the most important thing that we need to 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:37.240 get out is that the more and a half degrees 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.920 is still alive, that we're not stan it's I think 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:45.600 many well. The International Energy Agency, the UNFCCC, which is 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:50.040 responsible for the climate negotiations, have issued various reports. Our 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.280 own studies would point at by all means it's still possible. 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.920 If we already see, for example, on electric vehicles, that 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.760 two thirds of the sales of by twenty thirty could 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:04.960 be electric vehicles. We see wind and solar capacity being 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.400 online with the trajectory of one and a half degrees, 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:12.680 So if we really are serious and unlock those investments 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.080 at a little bit higher pace, but the technologies are there, 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.159 the funds are there, and frankly it would cost us 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.440 less than not doing so, so that is by all 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.560 means possible. And then methane. If we attack the methane issue, 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.160 it's obviously a short term far more burning, is one 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.600 hundred percent more potent in the timeframe that we have, 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.880 and that's also possible. We have one hundred countries that 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:34.240 have signed up to the methane pledge. So this is 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:36.400 one feature I think of the COP twenty eight and 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.520 many COPS that it's difficult to get all the countries 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:43.160 to agree on something nowadays, especially with the geopolitical tension, 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.320 but you can get these side agreements that are quite 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:48.120 significant in moving things forward. 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:49.960 So when you read a lot of the press, they 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.400 say this is really also the last chance to cut 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:57.040 emission significantly for this decade. Right. Does the fact that 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:01.000 the US and China, the world's two biggest plut started 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.160 talking to each other, does that make a big difference 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:04.600 in terms of environmental pledges? 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:07.360 You cannot get there without the US and China cooperating, 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:09.520 There's no question about it. Eighty percent of the emissions 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.600 are in the G twenty countries and the biggest ones 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.320 are China. In the US, so the fact that we 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:18.760 had the meeting in California between them that lasted four hours, 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:19.880 where they were. 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.160 Clear agreements to move forward. 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.320 We had yesterday a meeting with negotiate a WTO and 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:28.360 talked about that again. It is encouraging is that the 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.640 only solution no China actually is moving very fast in 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.200 many areas in the US. The IRA Inflation Reduction Act 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.680 has really changed the environment there. But you know, we 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.200 have to be very mindful. But you do have these 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.000 two on board is absolutely key. 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:45.000 I'm interested by by saying nothing will really shift, I mean, 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.120 everyone still feels the need to convene this time in Dubai. 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.039 You've been to many, many of these conferences. What's it 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:53.640 like on the. 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:55.560 Ground, you know, And what will you be doing? 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.120 Will you be personally lobbying representatives for these countries, for 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.279 these companies to try try to change people's mind, to 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.680 try to reach some agreement and maybe get some rabbits 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:05.599 out of hats that the world isn't quite expecting. 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.560 Yeah, So these meetings are difficult, and the mechanism that 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:10.800 has been put in place is difficult, but we haven't 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:15.080 found a better one. But having agreements nowadays unanimously between 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.039 all the countries in the world when you have this 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.440 enormous geopolitical tension, it's just not going to happen. We 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:25.400 see countries like countries like Saudi or Russia outright boycotting 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.039 these processes and trying to slow you down. And we 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.120 might see other countries, like especially the seventy Island states 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.520 which are drowning literally being far more aggressive. So this 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.479 has always been a process of finding compromise. But this 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.440 is just one meeting that people work to. Most of 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.800 the activity happens during the year. But it's important on 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.440 anything to have a deadline so that some of these 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:48.719 agreements are being worked. 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:49.080 And come together. 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.720 What you will see in the COP and coming to 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:54.960 the areas that I'm focused on, you will see in 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:57.720 the COP quite a big representation of the private sector. 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.120 Obviously you'll have the fossil fuel sector and we'll take that. 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:03.160 Hopefully they'll get an agreement on. 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:04.760 I mean, they have to be part of the seduction. 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:06.479 Well, they now have to show their cards, and I 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.240 think they will be saying ultimately, they will be saying, 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:10.880 if we're sitting here in two weeks time, that we 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.760 will be net zero in the fossil industry. But they 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.320 will only be talking Scope one and two, which is 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:18.760 what is under their own control, whilst we all know 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:21.200 that all their emissions are in Scope three. But where 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:25.560 we will see progresses in companies showing governments that they 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:28.720 have set higher ambitions than the governments themselves. So we 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.680 have fifty percent of the major companies in the world 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.480 now have set net zero commitments. But they're also which 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.520 is not bad. Actually it's about thirty seven tillion in value. 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.480 But they also have said very clearly we're at the 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.440 point now that we cannot get there unless the governments 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:46.880 start moving in different directions. We still have seven tillion 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.600 dollars of perfers, policies and government subsidies that push us 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:51.400 in the wrong direction. 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:53.440 So we do need governments. 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.800 Ultimately, But how do governments change? And this is something 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.760 that Dave and I speak about quite often, is that 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:00.680 you need to I guess, galvin, I yes, And I 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.160 don't know whether it's galvanizing, you know, you talk about 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:06.800 the climate change horrors and so galvanized public opinion, or 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:11.320 you galvanize you know, by protesting something I think probably 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:13.760 needs to happen to put climate change talks about it 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.480 at the forefront. Given all the other crises. 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:21.160 Absolutely and you see now Jeremy Hunt put the report 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.040 to the Bank of England for example, on what there 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.120 is four risks and all of a sudden climate change 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:27.720 has disappeared when it was last year on the list 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.160 as one of the four biggest priorities. So we do 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.560 have some countries and you know we have to watch 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:34.480 what happens in the US was the next election. 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.840 But that's the thing, I know, it's the backsliding, right. 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.320 We have these risks, but on the government side. 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.720 But then you cannot stop. You see where we are. 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:46.680 You cannot get discouraged because then you know the alternative 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.439 is just not there. The costs that we are now incurring, 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.000 the human suffering that we are encouraging. So whilst we 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.680 at times might be discouraged by some short term political action, 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:57.840 we actually need to go in overdrive. And what you 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.960 now see is civil society is speak louder. Employees and 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.400 companies are willing to walk away from companies not making 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:08.640 commitments that all commitments that they are not living up to. 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:14.960 You see companies themselves getting together at the increased pace 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.560 to form these alliances to put pressure on governments. 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:20.720 Does climate change have a pr problem. If you speak 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:24.920 about air quality control, then maybe galvanizes people more than 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.000 climate change because it also feels very far away when 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.040 you have two wars, when you have inflation, cost of 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:31.760 thin crisis. 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.680 Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more that the way 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:39.200 the narrative has been constructed clearly hasn't gotten through to 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:40.320 the extent that we need. 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.199 So we do need to look at a different narrative. 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:43.560 What I like is, and I. 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.360 Am especially focused on the food system transformation. We've pulled 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.640 a lot of big companies in the food system together 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:51.920 at thirty percent of the problem, as I said, but 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.880 also thirty percent of the solution. And by all means, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.920 it's possible to go to fifty percent regenerative agriculture by 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:03.959 twenty thirty, which basically means capturing carbon in the soil 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.080 and creating soil health. It's by all means possible to 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:11.319 protect biodiversity or restore biodiversity by twenty thirty, and that 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.920 alone is probably the biggest opportunity that we have right 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:19.040 now to thirty percent. So governments are frankly not well equipped, 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:22.280 not well organized, not well aware of these possibilities, and 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:27.080 incur quite often significantly different costs somewhere else. Take the UK, 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.680 for example, a broken food and land use system, it's 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.920 the lower stone biodiversity of all OECD countries. A broken 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.320 food and lent us system which results in people not 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.920 eating the healthy food they could be eating and actually 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.800 paying more for food than they should be paying ultimately 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.760 results in fifty five to seventy billion extra costs for 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:49.080 the NHS. So increasingly we're able to explain those things 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:50.160 to governments. 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:50.920 But are they listening? I mean the UK. 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.160 Let's talk about the UK government. We've just had the 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:57.520 autumn statement from the Chancellor. Are you in any way 0:10:57.559 --> 0:10:59.480 optimistic that this current government and we're going into a 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.200 big election year here, obviously politically they're going to make 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:03.520 this a priority. 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.000 Well, clearly they've decided not to, although they put different 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.640 voices behind that and try to position it differently. But 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.520 what we've clearly seen is, you know, one year ago, 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:15.080 it's let's get to the electric vehicles by twenty thirty 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.760 because it stimulates innovation and it makes economic sense, and 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.120 that's indeed true. Now all of a sudden it's no, 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:21.920 we don't want. 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:22.120 To do it. 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:25.199 But why because it's not popular it's not popular voter voters. 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:26.960 I mean, they're desperately trying to see if they can 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:29.400 get re elected in next year, earlier next year. 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:30.800 That's not mince words around that. 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.400 So that's why you see the Butchhet cuts now, which 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.000 our disguised increases actually for consumers. The men of England 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.800 again and the Butterchet Office clearly stating that it's not 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.440 making a big difference. But these are all attempts and 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:44.720 that you see in every country where you have short 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.560 term attempts too over the electorate to either limit the 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.760 damages or you know, get elected again. And you know, 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.120 we have to speak out when these things happen to 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:56.640 make clear that there was never a meat text plan 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.640 in the UK. There was never a plan to pull 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.839 out the gas boilers in people's arms and have them 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.960 incur extra expenses. There was never a plan to force 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.880 them into not flying and all these things. But these 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.480 governments are now become so populist in some extent that 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.680 I think they're increasingly losing the elector. This is not 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:18.760 a good move for the government. It is unwise, it 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.600 is ignorant, it's actually more expensive. And if you see 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.800 the UK, the majority of people like in the US, 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.560 by the way, the majority of people expect governments and 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:30.520 business increasingly to attack these. 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.040 Issues, but not the majority of people. Still, if you 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.760 have to change your stance on climate change or greening 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.680 the economy to get voters, then there's again there's a 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:39.920 problem of communication. 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:44.080 It is very easy to take a populist view and 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.920 say we want to protect you from becoming an any 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:47.720 state to tell. 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.040 You what to do, or it's rising prices. You know, 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:51.400 it's cost to avoid. 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.959 You paying more because it is a higher cost, and increasingly, 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:58.839 study after study points out because also of the advances 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.800 in technology, because of the cost that you would incur 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:06.000 if you don't move that it's actually economically more attractive. 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.080 But you know, you have to explain that to your electorate, 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:11.000 and there are very few politicians that clearly are first 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.400 to do that properly. But that's the reality. I'm not 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.040 denying that. But it means that we have to organize 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:20.360 ourselves better around that. When Suona came as its proposals 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.000 the other day, I think it was not well received. 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.360 It was not well received by the left to right, 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.000 it was not well received by the majority of business people, 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.559 and that message hopefully resonates mister Photers as well when 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:33.319 it comes to making a choice. 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:35.240 I mean, the world does feel very different from the 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:39.079 cop that was held in Britain, right in Glasgow. Since then, 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:42.520 we've had the rampant inflation, We've got two wars raging 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.719 now in the European time zone, and so with that 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:48.320 has come this. I suppose you could call it a 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.520 backlash right against ESG because it's gone down the priority 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.600 list of companies of people of households and people are 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.520 worried about the cost of things and adding to their bills. 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:00.640 Do you think that that sort of back quard step 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:02.320 in terms of a backlash if you want to call 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:04.800 it like that against ESG. Is that just a blip 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.920 in terms of the progress of greening the economy heading 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:10.760 to net zero? Or is it something more fundamental? 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.120 Well, I think we need to separate two things that 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.400 you put in one sentence. There is obviously other short 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.320 term priorities that have come to the foreground. TREATCHIC as 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.960 they may be, But I wouldn't immediately because that is 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.600 being prioritized, that there is a backlash against the ESG. 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.200 In fact, the world is moving quite fast. It's just 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.680 not moving fast enough. But what we see this year, 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:35.240 for example, is the doubling of the capacity of green energy. 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.000 We're spending one point eight trillion to two trillion dollars 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.520 this year on green energy. That's twice as much as 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.560 what we're spending on fossil fuel. So it is moving, 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.760 and it is actually moving quite fast, but we continue. 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.200 You know, the things like the wars themselves don't help either. 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.120 They're carbon emitting. The fact that we're getting close to 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:57.600 negative tipping points. The forest fires in Canada alone had 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:01.520 emissions that were, you know, quite a significant part of 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:05.960 annual emissions. We're getting into a deeper understanding of climate 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.960 science where the world's capacity to absorb our shortcomings if 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:12.440 you want to, is far less now than what we thought. 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:14.680 So that sense of urgency has come up. And at 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.120 the same time you have distractions. Many people are moving, 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:20.800 actually many countries are moving, but we're just not. 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:21.640 Moving at the speed. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:23.880 And I always say, going back to the old vehicles, 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.360 if you want to, it's easier if you're in second 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:28.000 gear to move to third or fourth gear. 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:30.800 Then if you would be in reverse. We're not in reverse. 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:32.680 But we just need to accelerate. 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:34.640 People don't like talking about it. So I remember doing 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.000 an interview with Larry Think in Dubos at the year 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.400 head launch. He was quite emotional for the first time. 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:40.760 He said some of the attacks he got in the 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.320 US were very personal. And he also said, recently than 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.120 actually stopping to use the word ESG because it's become 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.800 too politicized. Is that the right thing to do, to 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:55.320 continue maybe with an ESG agenda without talking about it. 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.240 No, I don't think it is. I think the Wolke 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.000 attacks that you see in the US are real. We 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.680 should not underestimate that. But they're not making ground. There's 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.760 very few legislation that has been passed, the very food 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.320 proposals in the proxy seasons in companies that have been accepted, 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:14.680 and frankly, it has been presented in a way that 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.560 hasn't caught the interest of American people. Even seventy percent 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.160 of the Republicans think that whatever investment decisions you make, 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:24.880 you should have the freedom to make the choices and 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.720 the factors you want to take into consideration. So, which 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.280 are often ESG factors. We know that companies that are 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:36.200 more diverse have a higher likelihood of performing better. Companies 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.400 that are more aggressively attacking issues of climate chains are 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:43.080 better presented, better prepared for the future, and the market 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:44.760 actually felues on better right now. 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.080 And explain to people why we target companies to come 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.280 on this program and others to talk about ESG and 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.240 they're at the forefront of the leader board of people 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.640 that are doing good and we'll talk about everything except that. 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.720 Yeah, because well, ESG first and foremost. The ESD term 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:06.560 is only ten years old. And certainly the attacks by 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.720 certain parts of the political parties mainly in the US 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.840 but also coming increasingly to Europe and heavily sponsored by 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:17.359 the fossil industry have an agenda, and that agenda we 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.800 should not be naive about that. The agenda will become 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:25.480 more offerred and more vicious as the conversion is happening. 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.520 That's because then the veested order will push back harder. 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.200 We shouldn't be naive about that. What is said about 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.600 it is that you mentioned Larry Fink that he has 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.119 to put personal guards by his house, that he gets 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.760 people to you know, threats that are you know, to 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.040 his family and to his life. And that's all sponsored 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.040 by you know, think tanks that are on the extreme 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.840 right by some politicians like our FEEFAC guy from Cincinnati 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.560 who wants to be elected, and the money traces back 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.280 to the fossil industry. But what we are saying is, 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:00.720 you know, fine, that is the reality of it, but 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:05.280 it is so economically more attractive to move forward. That's 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.040 why you see states like Wyoming or Texas, which a 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:12.160 red states, actually moving very fast. Those are leading states 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.919 in solar and in wind for example, the investments are going. 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.800 The three hundred and eighty nine billion that has been 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.960 made available with the Inflation Reduction Act in the US 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.200 is matched by the private sector up to about one 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:26.080 trillion right now. 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:28.120 So fundamental shift is it enough? 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.800 No, the US definitely is in a catch up mode. 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.360 Did they have to make some compromises given the political 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:37.040 situation and also leave some subsidies on the plate for 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.680 the fossil sector. Yes, but you see a fundamental shift 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.040 happening there. And that shift is not you cannot stop 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.439 where we are losing out is and Frantiinore totally right. 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.920 Terra Is because business is silent, or many of them 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:55.000 have decided to become silent. We don't see the partnerships, 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.480 the new partnerships emerging. We don't see the ambitions going 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.600 up versus where they are moving. We do, so it's 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:05.320 in that gap of ambition, and of course there are shortcomings. 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.680 ESD has grown so fast that we don't have all 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.560 the standards yet, but they're coming in the Sustainable Standard Board, 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:17.040 the European legislation, the SEC in the US. Of course 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:19.480 there are companies that make noise that they do things 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.280 and not deliver on that, but these are increasingly being 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:22.800 called out. 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.000 So the shortcomings of ESG. If you want to need 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:27.119 to be attacked. 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.800 We shouldn't. We shouldn't be too simple about that. But 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:35.440 I would not say that the woke capitalist attacks are 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:39.560 having the effect that the fast that order was thinking. 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.280 So this is not an issue of voke capitalism, to 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.520 be honest, this is an issue of broke capitalism. 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:46.560