1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 2 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and Chuck's here 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you should know. 4 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: You think that you every time, doesn't it? 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 2: Oh? Sure? After sixteen years it didn't think much for me. 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: Didn't get a giggle from you. 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: That's good. I like it because it should have gone 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: the opposite. 9 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 2: The giggle in me from me because of you, I 10 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 2: put a giggle in you. Oh ooh, we about that fresh. 11 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: Speaking of fresh, Chuck, you probably would not have just 12 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: said that were you not born an American. 13 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 3: Huh. 14 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: It was America not founded by essentially the most radical element, 15 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: extremist element that England had to offer at the time. 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: Wow, nice work, look at you. 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:09,199 Speaker 1: Thanks. That's all we need to say about their backstory. 18 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 2: Jerk, Well, I can sum it up in three sentences. 19 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: Let's hear what you got. 20 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: Well, we're talking about Puritanism and getting into just you know, 21 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 2: English puritanism is a a big ball of wax, very detailed, 22 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 2: and it's very easy to get in the weeds. We're 23 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: going to concentrate more on the Puritans, or at least 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 2: my charge to Olivia. I was like, you know what, 25 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 2: I think it was a Massachusetts at the time when 26 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: we were doing our show in Medford, and I was like, 27 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 2: what's up with this place, Massachusetts? And what was up 28 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: with the Puritans? 29 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: Why, like Pilgrims. 30 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're not going to go like super into 31 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: detail about their formation, but we will talk a little 32 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 2: bit about that right now. And my first sentence and 33 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 2: then you can just take over is who's a pure 34 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 2: the Puritans were And who they were was a group 35 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: of extreme, far extreme Protestants, and it was a movement 36 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 2: that came out of the fact that they were like, hey, 37 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 2: England's been reformed the Church of England. We don't want 38 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: any sniff of Catholicism around anymore. So we're going to 39 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: go hard, hard, toward the most extreme version of Protestantism 40 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: that you could imagine. 41 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can make a case that the Puritans 42 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: would not have existed had England not broken with the 43 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: Catholic Church informed its own Church of England. Right, But 44 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: these people are like, no, like, we're not going far enough. 45 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: We need to just be completely off the rolls, make 46 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: our own thing. And like you said, like there was 47 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,839 Speaker 1: this is a thick, thick period of English history from 48 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: like the fifteen thirties to the sixteen sixties something like that. 49 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: Like a lot happened during that time, and the Puritans, 50 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: like they either responded to it or were shaped by 51 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: it in some way, shape or form. But you can 52 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: kind of sum the whole thing up is that there 53 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: was a lot of changing of hands of power from 54 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: monarchs to people who staged coups, and sometimes the Puritans 55 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: were deeply persecuted, sometimes brutally. Other times they were the 56 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 1: ones in charge and they would brutalize other people. And 57 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: it was enough that it shook loose some of the 58 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: more radical groups of Puritans, of Puritans who either wanted 59 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: to reform the Anglican Church to be more Puritan, or 60 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: decided the Anglican Church couldn't be reformed and that they 61 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: should go off and form their own mini churches. It's 62 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: called congregationalism. So the upshot is things were just in 63 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: such upheaval that it shook some groups loose. Some moved 64 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: to Holland, and some ended up moving to North America 65 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: because stuff was just so crazy back in England at 66 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: the time. 67 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were basically like, hey, we can go over there. 68 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: This was in sixteen oh eight, and it was a 69 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: group of separatists. You were talking about these Congregationalists, they 70 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: were separatists. They wanted to sort of branch off. You know, 71 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: if you saw the movie The Vivich, remember that one. Yeah, 72 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 2: that's kind of what we're talking about. These people that 73 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: set up their own shops and were like, hey, we 74 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 2: can just go out here on our own and be 75 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 2: as radically Protestant as we can be, because you know, 76 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: we're based in Calvinism. We believe in predestination. We think 77 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 2: that there are chosen few that are designated to go 78 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: to heaven, and you're either one of those people or 79 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: you're not. There's really nothing you can do about that. 80 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 2: And we've gotten ministers that are going to decide if 81 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 2: you've gone through a real religious conversion or not. And 82 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 2: the other thing we should point out too, is that 83 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 2: the actual term puritan that didn't come along until the 84 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: fifteen sixties, and it was like an insult, right it was. 85 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: I saw it described as I think in the New 86 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: World Encyclopedia that you could you could considered calling somebody 87 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: like uptight or high strung, or like just a worry 88 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: ward or something today. That's kind of what they were 89 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: calling Puritans back then. The Puritans call themselves sints if 90 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: that says enough to you about what they thought about themselves. 91 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: But Puritan was kind of a put down because the people, 92 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: the other people in the Anglican Church who were like, 93 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: things are fine, you guys are really nitpicking here. You're 94 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: up in arms about some really dumb stuff like people 95 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: burning incense during church services, like just stuff that doesn't matter, 96 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: and the Puritans were like, it does matter because that 97 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: is Satan's way of corrupting us. 98 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's funny too. One of the other things 99 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: that keeps coming up, it seems like they really got 100 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 2: stuck on, was like can you talk to God directly? 101 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: Can you pray or not? Or do you have to 102 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 2: go through official channels of people higher up in this religion. Yeah, 103 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: And it seemed like that was a fight, like on 104 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: and off again for a long time, as people saying like, no, 105 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 2: we think you can, like you don't need to be special, 106 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 2: you can pray and talk to God, and other people 107 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: are like, no, that splasts with me, I know. 108 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: And you just touched on something that's kind of at 109 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: the heart like this was the great Puritan struggle because 110 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: one of the reasons for breaking with the Church and 111 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: getting as far away from is because the Church was like, 112 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: to get through God, you go through us, Priest, Bishop, 113 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: cardinal Pope, like, that's the way you go to get 114 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: to God. You can't do it yourself. You need the church, 115 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: and by the way, give us a bunch of money. 116 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: And the Puritans hated that. So they did believe that 117 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: like a congregation could take care of itself, and that 118 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: the minister could help people. But really you just needed 119 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: to know what it said in the Bible and live 120 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: your life accordingly and hope that you were one of 121 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: the saved who were going to make it into heaven. 122 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: That was their whole way. Yet they were also a 123 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: deeply elitist group, where the wealthier you were, the more 124 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: that meant you were favored by God, and so by association, 125 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: if you were poor, were poverty stricken, yeah, that must 126 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: mean you had some sort of moral failing, right, And 127 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 1: if that's not essentially the basis of America till today, 128 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: I don't know what is. 129 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really funny, well not funny, it's sad, but 130 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: you know what. 131 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I know exactly what to me. 132 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 2: So I mentioned the group of separatists that in sixteen 133 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: oh eight they came from a village in Yorkshire called Screwby. 134 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: You mentioned they moved to Holland, and then about twelve 135 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: years later a little more than one hundred of them 136 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: went to Plymouth Rock and founded that colony here in 137 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 2: North America. And again with the idea they're going to 138 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: create this great community where they can be English, they 139 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: don't have to compromise what they believe in. These were 140 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: the people in the Mayflower who a lot of them died. 141 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: They had that first Thanksgiving. I didn't have Christmas though, right. 142 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: No, the Puritans hated Christmas. 143 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 2: They did. 144 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: They didn't like I always thought it was because I 145 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: saw somebody explain it that it's not in the Bible. 146 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: If it wasn't in the Bible, it was Satanic, right, 147 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: And so of course they didn't mention Christmas in the Bible. 148 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: But I also saw a more reasonable explanation is that 149 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: I think we talked about this Christmas at the time 150 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: was a drunken, rabble rousing occasion where almost like you know, 151 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: Halloween can get to be like today. That's kind of 152 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: what Christmas was like, so, of course they hated Christmas. 153 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, because no one drinks around Christmas now. 154 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: No everybody observes it puritanically. 155 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 2: In sixteen thirty, if we jump ahead just a little bit, 156 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: this is when and this is the sort of the 157 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: money stuff I was after. This is when the Massachusetts 158 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 2: Bay Colony was founded. It was another group from England 159 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 2: led by a guy named John Winthrop, who was kind 160 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: of a well heeled attorney. He was a gentry member, 161 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: which means he was sort of just below nobility, but 162 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 2: you know, very highly respected class of people, which you know, 163 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 2: as you'll see, comes like you were saying, comes to 164 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 2: be thing that the Puritans were known for. And when 165 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: we think about Puritans in this country generally, we're thinking 166 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 2: about the people that came over with John Winthrop the 167 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 2: founding of Massachusetts, not the Pilgrims, not separatists, because they 168 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 2: weren't like, hey, we don't want anything to do with 169 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,599 Speaker 2: the Church of England, but they were still Congregationalists. 170 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, yes, the Puritans and the Pilgrims were for 171 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: all intentsive purposes, separate groups. They lived separately. They were 172 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 1: both They were both reformists, Calvinists who wanted the Anglican 173 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: Church to either get further away from Catholicism or split 174 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: from the Anglican Church altogether. So the best way the 175 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: rule thumb to understand both groups is the Pilgrims would 176 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: have found the Puritans ungodly and satan like. That's how 177 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: radical the Pilgrims were. The most radical of all of 178 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: the separatists, or of all of the reformists of the 179 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: Anglican Church. Ts were definitely they would look down on 180 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: us today. The Pilgrims would have just run in terror 181 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: if they saw any of us today. The pure Tins 182 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: would just look down on us, and they would recognize 183 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: it themselves in us, I think. 184 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 2: A little right too. Yeah, totally, yeah, And we'll get 185 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 2: to some of that a little bit later. But the 186 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: other thing is that they had a lot more money 187 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 2: than the Pilgrims did. They had a lot more financing 188 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 2: and resources. There were also about ten times as many, 189 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: think about a thousand people came over in that first group, 190 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 2: and they weren't they were just looking to set up 191 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 2: an idealize society over there. They weren't like fleeing England 192 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: or anything. But they were also they didn't want like 193 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: freedom of religion. At the same time, they were still 194 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 2: like super puritanical. But Winthrop, you know, you've heard the 195 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: very famous sermon about the colony being the city on 196 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 2: the hill. That was from Winthrop when he was talking about, 197 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: you know, metaphorically, we're who everyone's going to look up to. 198 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: So we got to set a good example and lead 199 00:10:58,280 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 2: really godlike lives. 200 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't want this thing to fail because everybody's 201 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: watching us, so better act like Puritans essentially exactly. And 202 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: one of the ways they did that also is that 203 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: they would all keep a close eye on one another. 204 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: Because there's one other thing to to understand about the Puritans. 205 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: They believed, quite literally, Satan was walking among us and 206 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: took an active interest in each individual's vices, desires, all 207 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: that stuff. And if you were weak, if you didn't 208 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 1: have your guard up at all times and live a 209 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: very godly life, you could be corrupted and God would 210 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: kill you and send your send your soul to hell. 211 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: That was the stakes of what these Puritans were living 212 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: with on a daily basis. So the best way to 213 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: root out Satan before he can really get a foothold 214 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: in a colony is to watch everybody down to the 215 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: family level. Family members would watch each other for signs 216 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: that Satan was corrupting them. 217 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 2: Well, that's the vivit. 218 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. That definitely is portrayed in that for sure. 219 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, don't turn your back on that. Billy goat. 220 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: Fun time, Joseph for something. 221 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 2: No, what was it? Something black, Freddie Fosblayer, fun time Black, 222 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 2: I don't know, something like that. These are the moments 223 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: where people are screaming at it's in their cars or whatever. 224 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: Apparently it's anecdotally. What do you mean, don't you remember? 225 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: I think there was a listener mail that Kate, you 226 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: were trying to think of a word, and it was anecdotal. 227 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: Oh oh yeah, yeah, I gotcha. I think maybe before 228 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 2: we break, we'll just say this that we also have 229 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: to talk about the finances of this. It was it 230 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: was a Puritanical group and it was all about religion, 231 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: but they also had to make money. So technically the 232 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 2: colony was founded by a company, the Massachusetts Bay Company, 233 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: which was a stock venture that traded fur. They traded fish, 234 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: and they had shareholders and it was you know, it 235 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 2: was a business. 236 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: It was, but this is how the Puritans retained control 237 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: of it. The joint owners, the joint stockholders of that 238 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 1: company were the ones who voted on who ran things 239 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: in the colony. But it just so happens that the 240 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: owners of the stock were exclusively people who lived in 241 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: that colony. All of those people were Puritans, and so 242 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: they were able to keep the dream alive of this 243 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 1: city on a hill because they held complete power over 244 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: this company and all of its doings. 245 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were the voting shareholders. 246 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it is important to remember too they ran 247 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: a successful company. Because we're elitist. They were elitist religious people. 248 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: It's very it's I want to say it's bizarre, but 249 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: it's not at all bizarre. It's very common, I think. 250 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, all right, so let's take that break and 251 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 2: we'll talk about what life was like there in Massachusetts 252 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: early on, right after this. 253 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: So when the people first arrived in Massachusetts, when the 254 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: settlers that were led by John Winthrop, they hit Salem first, 255 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: they met with some people who had kind of spread 256 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: out from Plymouth, and they were like, you guys are 257 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: a little too high strung even for us, So we're 258 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: gonna go found Boston, which apparently is named after a 259 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: town in Lincolnshire, in England, where a lot of the 260 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: people were from, and Winthrop was. They were like, you're 261 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: the governor. You're the guy you let us over here. 262 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: You gave a great lay sermon. No one's ever heard 263 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: anything better than what you just said. In fact, so 264 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: why don't you become governor? And he kept getting elected 265 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: and re elected and reelected because they had annual elections. 266 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: It wasn't every like two or four years, but even 267 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: still he was like, hey, guys, I think somebody else 268 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: should take a turn too. I don't want to accidentally 269 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: become king of the Massachusetts Bay Company, you know. 270 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, which was I don't know, maybe a little bit surprising. 271 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: It was. But another thing that's surprising too is these 272 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: people are immediately removed from England, where there is a 273 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: monarch in charge, the king, that has absolute authority over 274 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: there in their lives, and these guys are holding annual 275 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: elections for their leader who directly helps them run their 276 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: own town. That's bizarre. But that's also the seating of 277 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: American democracy too. 278 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, which I'm sure they it was pretty radical 279 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 2: for them at the time. All Right, So they are Massachusetts. 280 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: They're farming, nothing huge, but they're farming, they're fishing, they're 281 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: milling life, they're building boats and ships. The population is 282 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: really really growing kind of all over New England at 283 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: that time, because they just started spreading out. They would 284 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: go found another town, then another town. Let's go to 285 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 2: Rhode Island, let's go to Maine, and they said, what 286 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: are those places even They said, well, we'll come up 287 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 2: with the names later. But follow was in the seaside, lovely. Yeah, 288 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: just come this way and if you were a one 289 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: of the first people there, you were known as a proprietor. 290 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 2: You would get a little bit of land. The religion 291 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: again was still central to all this stuff in every 292 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: town that they were still you know, laser focused on that. 293 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: But it was really really growing fast. And one of 294 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: the reasons was because King Charles the First dissolved parliament 295 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: in sixteen twenty nine. So all these Puritan reformers who 296 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: were working in England to try and change the state 297 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 2: of the church there had no like a recourse. They 298 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 2: were like, well, we've been kicked out of Parliament, so 299 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: let's go to this new world, I guess. And about 300 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 2: twenty thousand of them moved there between sixteen twenty nine 301 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 2: and sixteen forty when Parliament got back together. 302 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: I know, in a decade their numbers grew about twenty 303 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: four give flux of people. Yeah yeah. And in that 304 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: twenty year period there was like there a lot happened 305 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: in England as well. And that was also not just 306 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: the reason why a bunch of Puritans showed up, because 307 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: there was you know, the monarchy was toppled and there 308 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: was civil war and all that, but that also led 309 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: to the fleeing essentially from the UK of well it 310 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 1: was in the UK at the time, but the Scottish, 311 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: the Irish, other English World Puritans, French immigrants, they all 312 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: showed up and they were like, hey, stuff really off 313 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: chain back in England, and you know what will eventually 314 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: be the UK. So we're going to come here and 315 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: hang out with you guys, but we're not Puritans, so 316 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: don't put that stuff on us. You keep your hang 317 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: ups to yourself. And the Puritans kind of scratched their 318 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: van Dyke beards for a second and they said, you 319 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: know what, you look like somebody who could make me 320 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: a lot of money. Welcome aboard. And so Massachusetts grew 321 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: not just spiritually when all of the other Puritans showed up. 322 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: But economically it really started to make inroads because a 323 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: lot of labors showed up, a lot of craftsmen showed up, 324 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 1: and merchants showed up too, who were like, Hey, I've 325 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: got connections back in England that can get a stuff 326 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: we need or who will buy the stuff that we're making, 327 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: and it started to thrive pretty quickly. 328 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 2: Around that time, they also scratched their Vandyke beards and said, 329 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: wait a minute, we thought off the chainment that was good. 330 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: I guess just shut up. Don't say anything about that. 331 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: At least I didn't say off the hook. They would 332 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: have been like, what are you talking. 333 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 2: Exactly like people remain on hooks. So while this is 334 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 2: going on, let's say this is what sixteen thirty six, 335 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 2: the colony of Connecticut was founded by a guy named 336 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 2: John Hooker. He was a pastor and what would later 337 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 2: be Cambridge. But he got a commission from the General 338 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: Court of Massachusetts go found Connecticut. So that happened, and 339 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 2: then Rhode Island. There were actually Puritan dissidents that founded 340 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 2: Rhode Island, and basically every part of New England was 341 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 2: founded under some sort of religious pretense, except for New Hampshire, 342 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 2: which is kind of interesting I think, like I think 343 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: you can still see remnants of that stuff today and 344 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 2: how New England is. 345 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, like I think the New Hampshire state license plate 346 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: says Satan's country, right, actually says live free or die. 347 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 2: Oh well, yeah, there you have it. 348 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: So this whole venture is starting to really kind of cook. 349 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: Between sixteen thirty and before the sixteen hundreds were out, 350 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: it just really established itself. They were spreading out so 351 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: much like you said, they were founding new colonies that 352 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: were seeded from the original Massachusetts Bay colonies. The Pilgrims 353 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 1: were like, nobody likes us, No one's joining our ranks. 354 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: We're actually losing people now. Yeah, we had the first 355 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: murder among Europeans in North America. Here can we come 356 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: join you? And actually there's a big, big argument in 357 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: a debate and a schism I think in Plymouth who 358 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: like the practical leaders were like, guys, we're not gonna 359 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: make it unless we join up with Massachusetts. 360 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 361 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: The other ones were like they're not godly enough. And 362 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: I think the people who thought they weren't godly enough 363 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: lost out, and so Plymouth was taken into is absorbed 364 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: into Massachusetts in sixteen ninety one. 365 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: That's right. So we talked a little bit about what 366 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 2: was going on there as far as the kind of 367 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: things they were doing, fishing and lumbering and farming a 368 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 2: little bit. But like day to day life, the two 369 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 2: most important things were going to church and going to school. 370 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 2: If there's one thing we can credit Puritanism with is 371 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 2: the fact that they put a lot of weight and 372 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 2: importance on schooling everybody and making sure everybody could read, 373 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 2: so everybody could read the Bible. 374 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: That's another legacy of Puritans that's still around today and 375 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: that's super American. Is public Educationah, like a very extensive 376 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: government overseen like educational system. That's what the Puritans set up. 377 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: They actually passed an act, the Old Diluter Satan Act, Yeah, 378 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: of sixteen forty seven, which I looked it up. I 379 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: couldn't find that it was ever repealed, so it's technically 380 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: still on the books in Relachusetts. Yeah. But it basically said, 381 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: if you have a town of fifty families, up to 382 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: fifty families, you have to hire a school master. That's 383 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: just law. Now, if you have one hundred families or more, 384 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: you have to actually build your own grammar school. And 385 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: if you're the head of household, not only do your 386 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: kids have to go to school, you have to make 387 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: sure that your servants' kids are educated too. 388 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: That's right, little kids. What would be like, I guess 389 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 2: sort of kindergarten to first grade. Second grade ed age 390 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 2: would go to what was called a dame school. Usually 391 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: an older woman of the community would run that one. 392 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 2: Then they had the secondary schools. If you were from 393 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 2: a wealthier family, you would go there to learn stuff 394 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 2: to prepare you for more education. And if you're like, 395 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 2: what are you talking about more education, this is sixteen 396 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 2: thirty six, guys. We're talking about a little college called 397 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 2: Haavid because in sixteen thirty six some leaders in the 398 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 2: Puritan community established the college to educate the clergy there, 399 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,239 Speaker 2: and it was renamed Harvard a few years after that 400 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 2: after Puritan minister John Harvard, after he said, Hey, I 401 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: got a lot of land here, I have a valuable estate, 402 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 2: I have this incredible library. It's all yours, And so 403 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 2: they named the college Harvard, and eventually that town would 404 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: become Cambridge. 405 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: Yes, so, yeah, they named it Cambridge because John Harvard 406 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: and a lot of the other leaders had gone to 407 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: school at Cambridge, which was producing clergy as well. So 408 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: that's pretty interesting. And I've noticed before on Harvard's little 409 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: logo it does say sixteen thirty six, and that's quite 410 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: a claim to fame. In the United States, I've noticed 411 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: that not a lot of things go back to sixteen 412 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: thirty six in the US. So hats off to Harvard, 413 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: as they say, as they say in the Dame Schools. 414 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 2: Not hats off to Harper. No, led Zeppelin wasn't. 415 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: That Oh yeah, yeah, that's right, that's the one that 416 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: starts out so weird. 417 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a weird song, good one. So all right, 418 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 2: like we kind of beat around the bush a little 419 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 2: bit about who the like, how pure channical they were. 420 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 2: You you say that a Pilgrim would look at a 421 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 2: Puritan like they were like a modern day American, you know, 422 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 2: or something like that. Yeah, in our modern eyes, we 423 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 2: think the Puritans were just really you know, like you said, 424 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 2: the the derogatory name, they were uptight, they didn't have 425 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,479 Speaker 2: any fun, they were dour, but that that's really not 426 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: necessarily true. That's kind of the popular trope in the 427 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 2: media portrayal. But they had it was all about money, 428 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: like Once people started making money and there was class division, 429 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: they were people wanted to show it off, and they 430 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 2: were like, all right, well, let's let's pass some laws 431 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 2: here that says, you know, you don't have to wear 432 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 2: gray and black all the time. You can. You can 433 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 2: splash a little color on your house and on your clothing, 434 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: and you can. You can wear those things that you 435 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 2: can afford to buy and show them off a little bit. 436 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, why shouldn't you show if your k new Cadillac buggy, 437 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: that shows that God clearly favors you over your neighbors. 438 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: Exactly should, but only if you an economic or social elite. 439 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: If you're not, if you're a peasant, or you're just 440 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: not favored by God, you have to dress in those 441 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: great clothes that we used to all have to wear. Yeah, 442 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: that was a big change, and that happened in just 443 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: a couple of decades. What about sex? 444 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: Is that sex? 445 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: Oh? My god? So they did not like extramarital sex. 446 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: They were not big fans of same sex relationships. 447 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 2: Nope. 448 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: They didn't even like masturbation. So you'd think, of course, like, 449 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,719 Speaker 1: I mean, they're famous for the scarlet letter. These are 450 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 1: the people who branded hester Prynne with the scarlet letter. 451 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: At least we put it on our clothing, right, Yes, 452 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: they did. That was a real thing. Nathaniel Hawthorne did 453 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: not lie. But I think as a modern group we've 454 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: kind of extrapolated that to mean that they did not 455 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: like sex at all. Like you, they would just be 456 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: like some guy who followed people around and like hit 457 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 1: him with the switch whenever they thought about sex or something. 458 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: That's actually the opposite of what they were. 459 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, apparently you were if you were married. They 460 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 2: were like, hey, you go make kids, and even if 461 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 2: you're not making kids, you go and do that dirty deed. 462 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 2: I believe the the quote was it would bond couples 463 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: together with good will and delight. And they talked about 464 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 2: the duty of desire to like not withhold sex from 465 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 2: your partner, and they would even turn a blind eye 466 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: to premaral sex with his which is really shocking to 467 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 2: hear this, but they'd be like, hey, if you're in there, 468 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 2: you're not married yet, don't worry about it. Do your thing, 469 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 2: but if you get pregnant, you better get married really 470 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 2: quickly and not tell everyone that this happened first exactly. 471 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: So that was a big one. I didn't know that 472 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: that they were into sex. 473 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 2: Did not know that or the drinking thing either. 474 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: No, that's another thing too. You would think that they 475 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: were all teetotalers, and they were not. In fact, they 476 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: drank about twice as much as we drink, yeah, by 477 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: gallons of alcohol pure alcoholic, which apparently is how they 478 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: measure drinking over the years, right. Yeah, So they would 479 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: drink all day long, morning, noon, night. They drank the 480 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: entire time, but you had to hold your liquor because 481 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: being drunk was not okay, And I don't think it 482 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: was like something they would execute you for, but it 483 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: was very much frowned upon. But drinking. Go ahead and 484 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: drink all day long, keep a nice little buzz going. 485 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 1: But that's it. 486 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I get the feeling. I get the feeling. You 487 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: had to be pretty drunk to get that scorn. Okay, 488 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 2: So I like you had to really cross the line, 489 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 2: right exactly. But I think it was hard for them 490 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 2: because they could hold their liquor. Yeah. 491 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: So in seventeen ninety, the average American drank and estimated 492 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: six gallons of pure alcohol per year. That's seventeen ninety. 493 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: We're thinking that probably did not change much like go 494 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: up or down from one hundred or so years before that, 495 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: it started to go down in the nineteenth century, right, 496 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: So six gallons Today, in twenty twenty one, the average 497 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: American drinks two point eighty three gallons of pure alcohol year, 498 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: so twice as much the Puritans were drinking than we do. 499 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 2: Wow, have being premarital sex. They're drinking all day long. Yep, 500 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 2: no wonder, they're having premarital sex. They're drinking all day long. 501 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: Sure, what else are you going to do? 502 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly. So when it comes to the women in 503 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: these societies, it was a patriarch like there's no getting 504 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 2: around that. And women didn't have a lot of legal 505 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 2: rights at the time, no getting around that. But depending 506 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: on which congregation or which community you were in, there 507 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: may be women in that town that had more say 508 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 2: over others in what was important in that town, which 509 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: was the church, which was what was being preached, the 510 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: sermons that the children were hearing. Sometimes they would even 511 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 2: be able to lead those sermons, which was pretty. 512 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: Radical for the time, right, Yeah, for sure, And I 513 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: mean like it was very patriarchical, but I read that 514 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: the Puritans did have respect, especially colonial Puritans in New 515 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: England had a lot of respect for women for their 516 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: domestic abilities. 517 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, because they. 518 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: Did a lot of stuff just to keep a homegoing, 519 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: and then also because they would go through childbirth. So 520 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: like there was a lot of respect for women in 521 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: that sense. But the men or the oldest son were 522 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: clearly the head of the household. 523 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, yeah, they and then that we talked 524 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 2: about this in our Salem Witch Trials episode. But you know, 525 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 2: the reason that was such a big deal is because 526 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: it was a big deal. It wasn't. The idea that 527 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 2: the Puritans were all over the place trying to drown 528 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: and burn witches just wasn't true. Salem was a pretty 529 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 2: exceptional incident even for the time. It was a big 530 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 2: controversial thing and a pretty unusual thing. So if you 531 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 2: have it in your head that Puritans were just like, 532 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 2: you know, there's wait burner, it really wasn't like that. 533 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: No, no, no, it was Remember I think we talked 534 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,479 Speaker 1: a lot like Salem was super isolated. Yeah, because they 535 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: were the most puritanical and the most dour, and they 536 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: just kind of cracked. I think, if I remember correctly, 537 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: that was a good episode. Yeah, was that a two parter? 538 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: I don't remember. 539 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: I don't either. It was a good episode or episodes. 540 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: That's right, you want to take. 541 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 2: A break, Yeah, let's take a break. 542 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: Okay, we're gonna take a break. 543 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 2: All right, let's do it, all. 544 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: Right, softy jaw. 545 00:30:41,040 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 3: Soft all right. 546 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 2: So here's the deal. If you were in one of 547 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: the puritanical communities, they did not like people who went 548 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 2: up against them too hard. If you went up against 549 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 2: them too hard and we're a little too outspoken about 550 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: how things were being done, you probably found yourself leaving 551 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 2: and being ousted. And a couple of pretty notable people 552 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 2: that happened to was a guy named Roger Williams and 553 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 2: a woman named Anne Hutchison. Williams was a minister. He 554 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 2: was educated in Cambridge, not the American Cambridge. 555 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's what they call that town. 556 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, the American Cambridge, New Cambridge. He came to Boston 557 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 2: in sixteen thirty one, moved around a bit. He seemed 558 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:50,719 Speaker 2: to be a little bit of a rabble rouser. He 559 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 2: wasn't sort of content to just put his head down 560 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 2: and go along with everything everyone said. And that was 561 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 2: a problem. That was a big problem at the time. Actually, 562 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 2: when it came to how they were their approach to 563 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 2: dealing with the local indigenous Native American population. 564 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was kind of an idealized Puritan. He believed 565 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: in the separation of church and state, which is something 566 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: that Puritans are either credited with establishing in America or 567 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: are criticized for not having done. It just depends on 568 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: which article you're reading at the time, right, But he 569 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: was definitely in favor of the separation of church and state. 570 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: And he also was in favor of treating the Native 571 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: Americans who they shared this area with respectfully, not just 572 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: taking their land because the crown said they could, but 573 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: like negotiating with them, like dealing with them fairly, to 574 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: like purchase land, and in fact he did. He purchased 575 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: a large tract of land from the Narraganset I think, 576 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: and ended up founding Rhode Island. Those are I mean, 577 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: Rhode Island's a small state, but it's a pretty big 578 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: tract of land in general. 579 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 2: Huge tract of plant m But Rhode Island was open 580 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 2: for business. They were like, Hey, if you're a Quaker, 581 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 2: come on over. If you're a Baptist or an Anabaptist, 582 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 2: come on over. 583 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: You want to learn design come on over. 584 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, basically, anyone who wasn't a Puritan was welcome there. 585 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 2: They weren't welcome in Massachusetts. He himself converted in sixteen 586 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 2: thirty nine to Baptism, and the very first Baptist church 587 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 2: in America is right there or I'm not sure if 588 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 2: still they're not actually, but right there in Providence. 589 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: I don't think they tear stuff down in Providence, so 590 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: it's probably like everything that Lovecraft wrote about is basically 591 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: still there. 592 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a sign there that says Providence first Baptist 593 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 2: and then in parentheses, No, really first Baptist. 594 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: Right. 595 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 596 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: So the other person you mentioned was Ann Hutchinson, and 597 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: there were also tons of dissenters, but these two are 598 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: the famous, most famous, I should say. And Anne Hutchinson 599 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: is very famous because she was about as outspoken as 600 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: a person could get, not just in her time, but 601 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: in any time, Like she just did not take any guff. 602 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: She was an incredibly intelligent and compassionate midwife, and she 603 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: had some sort of holy conversion herself. Like if anybody 604 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: went through a conversion, it was probably Anne Hutchinson. But 605 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: she started out as a follower of the minister John Cotton, 606 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: who was the father in law of Increased Mather, grandfather 607 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: of Cotton Mather, and initially John Cotton had to flee 608 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: England because he was being persecuted for his beliefs. But 609 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: then as Anne Hutchinson kind of broke with him and 610 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: became a little more of a firebrand and a dissident, 611 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: he ended up turning on her with John Winthrop and 612 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 1: she was ostracized. She was excommunicated from Massachusetts for behaving 613 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: in a manner not comely for her sex. That was 614 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: a quote, if you've never really heard me talk before, 615 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: I don't talk like that. 616 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 2: I've known you for a long time, never heard you 617 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,399 Speaker 2: say the word comely until just now. 618 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 619 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 2: So she was actually preaching like you, Sa said. She 620 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 2: went through that conversion and she was preaching the Holy Spirit, 621 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 2: and she was saying she was one of those people 622 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 2: that were like, hey, you get a direct line to 623 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 2: God in the Holy Spirit. You can talk to God, 624 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 2: and anyone can get this personal connection to God. Anyone 625 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 2: can go to Heaven. It doesn't matter if you're a sinner, 626 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what kind of a relationship you have 627 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 2: with the church. It's it's a personal and this is 628 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 2: what you know, I got growing up with what the 629 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 2: Baptists really think about these days. Well, and I guess 630 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 2: all along was that it's a very personal relationship you 631 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 2: have with God. You don't need to go to a 632 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 2: church even necessarily. You just have that personal relationship and 633 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 2: you can pray directly to God. You got an open line. 634 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very Protestant way of looking at things. 635 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: It's like the antithesis of the Catholic way again. Yeah, 636 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: but Ann Hutchinson, she was basically like, you can, you 637 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: can banish me, but God's going to destroy this colony. 638 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 2: Famous quote. 639 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, her famous quote was we're on a mission from. 640 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 2: God, yeah, exactly. 641 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,919 Speaker 1: And it didn't come to pass. Massachusetts is still there. 642 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: But she went off and just kind of did her 643 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: own thing, and her family moved with her to Rhode Island. 644 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: Apparently her husband was extremely supportive and she was the 645 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: mother of fifteen, if not sixteen kids, and they all 646 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: moved to Rhode Island and Roger Williams said, welcome on in. 647 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: He said, why are you wearing sunglasses? It's nighttime? 648 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 2: Fifteen kids. That was good. Some other people, if you 649 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 2: want to talk about people that Massachusetts didn't want a round. 650 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 2: That was the Quakers. The Puritans didn't like them because 651 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 2: the Quakers were just too like, probably a little too 652 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 2: hippy dippy for them. They were all about following your 653 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 2: inner light again, having a direct line to Jesus, didn't 654 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 2: need religious officials. They thought the Quakers were weird, so 655 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,959 Speaker 2: the Massachusetts colonies were like, we don't want you around here. 656 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 2: Sometimes it would get violent and ugly. I believe over 657 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 2: the course of a couple of years, four Quakers were hanged, 658 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 2: one of which was Mary Dyer. She was one of 659 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 2: the acolytes of Anne Hutchinson, who had, you know, eventually 660 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 2: obviously converted to Quakerism. But you know, things got so 661 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 2: bad among persecuting Quakers that King Charles the Second in 662 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 2: sixteen sixty one finally said, you guys got to stop 663 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 2: killing Quakers. This is not a good look. 664 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: He's like, leave the Quakers alone. 665 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 666 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: The thing that they hated about Quakers, though, was a Quaker. 667 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: I guess dogma or whatever. If that's not a contradiction 668 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 1: in terms is that every single person alive has a 669 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: little bit of the Divine Spirit in them, which means 670 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: every single person alive is worthy of respect from every 671 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: other single person alive. And that really flies in the 672 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: face of that saved elitism that the Puritans based their 673 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: entire jam on. That was a big deal. They hated 674 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: Quakers for that. And also, you know the idea that 675 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: we're all equal that Quakers believe, that's not again, not 676 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: at all what the Puritans believe. They saw basically the 677 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: opposite of that, like I'm literally holier than now because 678 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: I'm richer than you. Essentially was a tenet of Puritanism 679 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: and one of the reasons why they still have a 680 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 1: bad name today is the Puritans went through such damaging 681 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:30,760 Speaker 1: intolerance and persecution time after time in England, decade after decade, 682 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: and then they would just turn right around the moment 683 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: they had a measure of power and do it to 684 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: other groups that didn't agree with them. So they're remembered 685 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: as being like profoundly hypocritical as a group, largely because 686 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: of that. 687 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, should we finish up with a little bit 688 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 2: about the slave trade in Massachusetts? Sure, because I think 689 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 2: a lot of people are like, I think you're mistaken. 690 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 2: I think you're talking about the South. 691 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:02,240 Speaker 1: That pronounced Georgia. 692 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, here's how it went down. And we should say 693 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 2: it was not a robust situation as far as enslaving 694 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 2: people in Massachusetts. That's a spoiler. But the lead up 695 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 2: into this was before the Mayflower got there. In sixteen twenty, 696 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 2: the Algonquin speaking people there in southern New England were 697 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 2: ravaged by and we've talked about this before about illness 698 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 2: that came over from Europe. I think it wiped out 699 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 2: like ninety percent of the population over a three year period. 700 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 2: And over in England, King James the first is like, see, 701 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 2: this is God basically saying this land belongs to you. 702 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 2: So he's killing all these people, you know, in the 703 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 2: name of God, so we can go over there and 704 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 2: have this land exactly. 705 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. And John Winthrop echoed that, like that was kind 706 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: of the sentiment, like clearly God had cleared the land 707 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,439 Speaker 1: for the English to take over. I mean, there's ninety 708 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 1: percent of your population in three. 709 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 2: Years as yeah. 710 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're a Puritan, it's tough to not take 711 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: it like that, right. 712 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 713 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: So all of the Native Americans, even though their society 714 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: was completely upended. And I guess here's my chance to 715 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: mention fourteen ninety one again, because. 716 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,240 Speaker 2: It covers all of it's been a while. 717 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 1: It has been a while, but I can't just not 718 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: mention it. Yeah, there were still healthy, robust tribes of 719 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: Native Americans in the area, and in this area, specifically 720 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: in central in southern what is now Connecticut, were the Peaquot, 721 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: and they essentially ran the show. There were others, the 722 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: Narragansett Mohegans, they were in the area too, but they 723 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: were subjugated by the Peacot. Peaquot who were in alliance 724 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: with the Dutch, and they controlled all of the fur 725 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: trading in the area. So they were a very substantial, 726 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: tough group. And the English essentially, as they tried to 727 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: push further and further south into Connecticut and below into 728 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: southern New England, they ran right into the pea Quot. 729 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: They're like, no, oh, this is our lan and you're 730 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 1: gonna have to stay up there. The English didn't like 731 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: that at all, and in fairly short order, the first 732 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: truly sustained conflict between the English and Native Americans was 733 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,439 Speaker 1: what came to be known as the pea Quot War. 734 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 2: That's right right there at the Connecticut Colony. They defeated 735 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:25,800 Speaker 2: them pretty roundly, and that's basically how the what kicked 736 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:30,800 Speaker 2: off enslavement of people because they got these the pea Quots. 737 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 2: The idea was, hey, let's get them far away from 738 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,959 Speaker 2: their homeland. So they're in a far away place where 739 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 2: they have, you know, their will has been basically killed 740 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 2: to try and return to where they came from. They 741 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 2: have no help nearby because we've taken them far from home. 742 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 2: So they sent some of those peaquots to the West 743 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 2: Indies to trade for African enslaved people in return brought 744 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 2: them over and basically the same aim as you know 745 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,839 Speaker 2: sending Africans to the colonies was like, well they're you know, 746 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 2: they're stuck over there now, and then now we have 747 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 2: your pequots and they're stuck over here. It was only 748 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 2: a few hundred enslaved people in the colonies, so, like 749 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 2: I said, it wasn't the most robust thing, nothing like 750 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 2: it was in the South, obviously, but just the idea 751 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,360 Speaker 2: that you know, that kind of thing didn't happen up 752 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 2: there just wasn't true. 753 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: Right, No, absolutely, And that Peaquot war and the following 754 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,840 Speaker 1: adoption of enslavement was a huge turning point for a 755 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 1: lot of like big wake up call for a lot 756 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 1: of the Puritans, because if you look at the original 757 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: seal of Massachusetts, there's a Native American on there, and 758 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: there's still one there today. But originally there was a 759 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,879 Speaker 1: cartoon bubble where he was saying, come over and help us, 760 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: really and yes, and a lot of the a lot 761 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: of the Puritans who did arrive arrived with that aim. 762 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: They were coming like for the opportunity to save the 763 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: souls of this whole group of people had never been 764 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: exposed to God before, right, and now all of a 765 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: sudden the English had waged total war and slaughtered pea 766 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: Quat women and children, burned villages, and then shot people 767 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 1: who tried to escape. It was ugly during the Peaquot War. 768 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: So some people are like, what are we doing? Like 769 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: we need to have a reckoning about all this. And 770 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: I think the elite Puritans of the Massachusetts Colony kind 771 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: of came to these people and he said, I know 772 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,800 Speaker 1: how you're feeling, Fellah, will make you feel any better 773 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 1: if we just start selling more timber instead of really 774 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: reflecting on what we've done here. And the guy kind 775 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,320 Speaker 1: of like wiped a tear from his eye and sniff 776 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,799 Speaker 1: a little bit. It's like, yeah, that'll make me feel 777 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: a little bit better, and they just kind of move 778 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 1: forward and establishing southern New England using those same tactics 779 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 1: from there on out. And I should say that I 780 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: got to chuck that up to the YouTube channel Boston History. 781 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: There's a Professor Allison who did a great little like 782 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 1: seven and a half minute video on that whole thing. 783 00:43:55,000 --> 00:44:02,440 Speaker 2: So Puritanism declined eventually, gradually kind of like how society goes. 784 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 2: Things became a little less zealous as far as religion goes, 785 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,360 Speaker 2: a little more open minded, little more changed with the times, 786 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,320 Speaker 2: and that was kind of the end of Puritanism, or 787 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 2: at least you know, that kind of puritanism England. In 788 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 2: the sixteen eighties, they you know, really cracked down on 789 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 2: the independent politics and the colonies. They said, hey, you 790 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 2: got to have a freedom of religion over there if 791 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 2: you want to move forward and roll with the times. 792 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:38,359 Speaker 2: But you know, Christianity still has plenty of those puritanical 793 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,800 Speaker 2: aspects to it in New England and then as its spread, 794 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 2: you know throughout the rest of the colonies for. 795 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, for sure. And there's still a huge legacy 796 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: of Puritanism today, which we've kind of peppered throughout the 797 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,360 Speaker 1: whole episode. A sterling example as me an American born 798 00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:01,280 Speaker 1: man feeling completely fine with being holier than now towards 799 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:07,839 Speaker 1: the Puritans. That's Puritanical in nature. Sure, so is intolerance 800 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: of others, a love of income inequality or at least 801 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: a respect of it among a lot of people. But 802 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: then there's also like a lot of really good stuff 803 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: that are chalked up to the Puritans too, like the 804 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 1: American work ethic, the idea that you can pull yourself 805 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: up from by your own bootstraps that came out of 806 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: colonial Massachusetts. 807 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 2: For certain, they have the boot straps. 808 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: They did, they had little well the buckles at least 809 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:34,760 Speaker 1: pull yourself up by your breast buckles. 810 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 2: We already talked about schooling and education. 811 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was another big one too, that we can 812 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: thank them for thriftiness, not being wasteful, which I'm not 813 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 1: sure that that really survived into the twenty first century, 814 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,240 Speaker 1: but that was a thing for a while in America, 815 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,879 Speaker 1: drinking all day. Yeah, although funny enough, remember I said 816 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 1: that it started to take a downturn in the nineteenth century. 817 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,359 Speaker 1: Those same descendants of the Puritans went through was known 818 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: as a Great Awakening and one of the things that 819 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,319 Speaker 1: they took aim at was alcohol consumption. And so it's 820 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: funny that we associate looking down on alcohol consumption with Puritans, 821 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: but it is kind of descended from their descendants. 822 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Sarah, like we got this tailgating's getting out 823 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 2: of hand. Everybody, Right, Boy, that was a pretty good one. 824 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,080 Speaker 1: I've got one more thing. An American journalist who really 825 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: disliked Puritanism. His names hl Mencan, great journalist, and he 826 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 1: summed the whole thing up, I think quite nicely. He 827 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 1: very famously said Puritanism is the haunting fear that someone 828 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,800 Speaker 1: somewhere may be happy. 829 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 2: That's good. 830 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,560 Speaker 1: Chuck said, that's good. I quoted hl Mencan. Obviously everybody 831 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,000 Speaker 1: that customarily means listener males here. 832 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is just a very sweet email. Occasionally we 833 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,879 Speaker 2: read these from time to time when people are just 834 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 2: very very kind and show a kindness toward us. So 835 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 2: I'm going to read it. Hey, guys and Josh, Chuck, 836 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 2: Jerry Dave. By the way, I've been trying to compose 837 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,480 Speaker 2: this email for over three years, but y'all have been 838 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 2: on such a role lately with topics that I feel 839 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 2: obligated to spill my grateful guts. I hope this isn't 840 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 2: verging into parasocial, But you guys have been with our 841 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,239 Speaker 2: family for countless road trips, houseworks, sleepless nights, commutes, the 842 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 2: birth of our twins, twelve weeks in the nick you, weddings, vacations, 843 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,080 Speaker 2: out of state, surgeries for our youngest. During a few 844 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:33,799 Speaker 2: of our hospital trips, who are asked to fill out 845 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 2: a sign on the front door that said what our 846 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 2: child's name was and what they like or their favorite thing, 847 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 2: and it was always between stuff you should know and 848 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 2: blue And each time I told our nurses to put 849 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 2: stuff you should. 850 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 1: Know, that's high praise. 851 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 2: It is high praise. I would have put bluey. Your 852 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,120 Speaker 2: voices have had a soothing effect on all of us, 853 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:55,360 Speaker 2: through monumental personal life events, through gut wrenching global catastrophes. 854 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,400 Speaker 2: We got the audio version of your book and have 855 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,320 Speaker 2: listened through the End of the World multiple times. 856 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,080 Speaker 1: Nice, that's amazing. 857 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:05,719 Speaker 2: I haven't even listened to it multiple times. 858 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 1: Huh, that's okay. I don't expect it to. 859 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 2: Your book, movie, podcast, article recommendations carry loads of cloud, 860 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 2: as they are never anything short of exceptional. We have, 861 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 2: in turn, recommended you to many friends, family, students, healthcare workers, 862 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,840 Speaker 2: comrades of all ages and walks of life. Thank you 863 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 2: for helping us cultivate an intellectually stimulating environment for our 864 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 2: young ones and inspiring us grown ups to remain flexible 865 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 2: and curious. You expand our understanding of the world as 866 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,920 Speaker 2: it is, as it has been, and help us move 867 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 2: forward in humility towards creating a just and equitable future. Wow, 868 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,120 Speaker 2: you've got the wrong email address here. 869 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,320 Speaker 1: They're like, this is SmartLess, right. 870 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. If I keep trying to say all the 871 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,040 Speaker 2: nice things I think and feel about y'all and your show, 872 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,880 Speaker 2: I'll be stuck editing this email for another three years. 873 00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,760 Speaker 2: Hope to see you in Chicago. Admiringly Nelson and Nelson 874 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:06,799 Speaker 2: sent in pictures of their beautiful family, and I responded 875 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,759 Speaker 2: and said, Hey, if you can come to Chicago for 876 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,239 Speaker 2: this show, then we would love for you to be 877 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,840 Speaker 2: our guests. And I haven't heard back yet, so well. 878 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a cute family. I saw that email too, 879 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:19,319 Speaker 1: and I was heartwarmed by just. 880 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 2: A wonderful thing. So and when we say be our guests, 881 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,799 Speaker 2: that means free tickets, by the way, not just we're 882 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:26,720 Speaker 2: going to give you a welcome afty buy tickets. 883 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,680 Speaker 1: I also love Nelson wrote in parentheses after they signed it, 884 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:33,440 Speaker 1: like Mendela or Muntz. 885 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, hats off Nelson. 886 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,080 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. That was a super kind sweet 887 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 1: email and we really appreciate it, I can say quite 888 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 1: confidently speaking for you as well, right, Chuck, absolutely, If 889 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 1: you want to be like Nelson and sent us a 890 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: super sweet email, you can bet we love that kind 891 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,280 Speaker 1: of thing. Just wrap it up, spanking on the bottom 892 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:59,440 Speaker 1: and send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 893 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:01,839 Speaker 1: Know is a production of iHeartRadio. 894 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,560 Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 895 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,640 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.