1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Kshatrati this week, getting arrested, 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: getting lucky, and finally getting a climate bill. This summer, 3 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: I went to the US and spent three weeks visiting 4 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: climate startups and talking to investors who give those startups money. 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: One of those conversations spoke particularly well to the role 6 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: that venture capital plays in funding climate tech. The model 7 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: of venture capital is to make many bets yes, early on, Yes, 8 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: risky bets. Yes, very few will succeed. Yes, what succeeds? 9 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: How much of that is luck? That's an interesting question. 10 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: I don't think it is luck. I don't think that's 11 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: the right word. Chance. No, no, no, it's almost like 12 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: it's not the right concept. That's Gabriel kraw a co 13 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: founder of the venture capital firm Prelude. Now. Venture capital 14 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: is both loved and hated. Some say it's the only 15 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: way to fund companies that change the world. Others say 16 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: it is unaccountable. It can gain markets and it can 17 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: launder reputations. That's the black and white version of the narrative, 18 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: and you would be surprised how many smart people buy 19 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: into it. Gabriel is someone who is comfortable in the 20 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: gray zone. He started his career in the nineties as 21 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: a greenpeace activist, even getting arrested on the steps of 22 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: the Washington Monument as part of a climate protest. Two 23 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: decades later, he co founded Prelude with members of the 24 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: Simon's family. Their wealth comes from hedge funds, and they've 25 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: been active in climate investment for decades. Prelude has invested 26 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: in more than sixties startups so far, everything from batteries 27 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: and hydrogen to solar and fertilizers. Now, venture capital is 28 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: nothing new. Many of the services that you use today 29 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: were made possible because some venture capitalists gave some entrepreneur 30 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: lots of money to try some crazy idea. Venture capital 31 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: for climate startups, though, is a little different. It's not 32 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: just about the entrepreneurs. The physics must make sense, the 33 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: chemistry must be sound, and the engineering must be scalable 34 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: because you need to build physical things, what many call 35 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: heart tech. Even if you get all those things right, though, 36 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: there is a chance of falling into what's called the 37 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: Valley of Death, a desert landscape filled with the skeletons 38 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: of startups. This is where venture capitalists can help the 39 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: experience of building companies that at least some of these 40 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 1: investors bring alongside their money can help climate startups escape 41 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: the Valley of Death and grow big enough to cut 42 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: a meaningful amount of emissions. When I went to the 43 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: US this summer, I got a taste of what Gabriel 44 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: sees every day, and I'm excited to share it with 45 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: you in future episodes. For this conversation, we met up 46 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: in Gabriel's office in San Francisco to understand how he 47 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 1: makes a difference to the company's he investon the ways 48 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: in which the US Climate Bill boosts clean tech startups, 49 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: and what makes the current climate tech boom so much 50 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: better than the first one. Gabriel, Welcome to the show. 51 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me out, Chut. 52 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: So let's start with your story. You've taken sort of 53 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: an unusual route to being a VC. Where did it 54 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: start for you? Well, maybe not so typical compared to 55 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: many other folks who are vcs. I was East Coast kid, 56 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: grew up on Long Island, went to school in New 57 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: York at Columbia, and my summer of my junior year, 58 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: I drove across country and I ended up instead of 59 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: getting all the way out to Hollo Alto, where my 60 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: sister was in grad school. I ended up working for 61 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: a summer in Yellowstone Park and like working as a 62 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: waiter so that I could spend my weekends hiking and 63 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: discovering the mountains and the beauty of that park. So 64 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: that's where my journey as an environmentalist, as a climate 65 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: person started. And so like that's my motivation for doing 66 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: what I was doing. I've wanted to get involved and 67 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: protect these beautiful places. So now, back in nineteen ninety 68 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: one ninety two, I moved to DC and I got 69 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: a job with green Peace, and it wasn't a glamorous job. 70 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: I was going door to door canvassing for Greenpeace. But 71 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: eventually I did some internships and I worked in the 72 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: national office, and so Greenpeace back then and still was 73 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: a practitioner of non violent civil disobedience. I was actually 74 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: arrested in front of the Washington Monument, and I think 75 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: it must have been nineteen ninety two protest the failure 76 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: of the United States government to participate fully in the 77 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,239 Speaker 1: Rio Earth Summit. Right, Like that was me back then, 78 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: And then I went to school to get a master's 79 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: degree in atmospheric chemistry, and the motivation for me to 80 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: do that was I wanted to better understand the science 81 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: and the processes behind what I was so passionate and 82 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: talking about. I realized in that process that I didn't 83 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: want to be an academic. I didn't want to spend 84 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: the extra years getting my PhD. No offense to those 85 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: in this room will have one. I respect you all 86 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: the more for my failure to have the discipline to 87 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: stick with it. But I ended up working in a 88 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: variety of jobs. But in two thousand and nine, to 89 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: fast forward, at that point, i'd been at three different startups, 90 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: some moderately successful, some gloriously unsuccessful, but a couple of 91 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: hard tech startups, and one engineering a little less hard 92 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 1: tech but still technology focused. But at that time I 93 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: was working in solar and semiconductor banking at Deutsche Bank, 94 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: and I met or I had lunch with the folks 95 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: who would become the Prelude Limited partners. I went out 96 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: for lunch with Matt Simons and he and his wife, 97 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: Floor Baxter. Simons were already active in climate and we 98 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: started working through and thinking through what kind of investment 99 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: platform we could build within their family office. And it 100 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: took a while, but by twenty thirteen, we had what 101 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: was prelud venture. The vision is that by focusing your 102 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: efforts on companies that can impact carbon dioxide or CO 103 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: two equivalents in the atmosphere, by making that your signposts 104 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: that's what you look for, then you can just within 105 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: that mandate, focus on the same sorts of things that 106 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: people focus on when they're looking at traditional venture capital. 107 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:56,119 Speaker 1: Great teams going after hard to solve problems with big 108 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: market opportunities if they're successful. So if you think about 109 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: our theory of change, something along the lines of by 110 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: investing in companies who, when they are massive, have a 111 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: huge positive climate impact, then we have aligned financial and 112 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: climate impacts. It has any of your startups actually reduced 113 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: emissions so far? Yes? Absolutely. An example, Well, I'm not 114 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: the sort of person, unfortunately, who recalls numbers specifically off 115 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: the top of my head. We have a company called 116 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: renew Financial, which was one of the first companies we 117 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: invested in twenty thirteen or fourteen. It finances energy efficiency 118 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: and solar projects in people's homes. Several years ago, it 119 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: was the equivalent of God, like I said, terrible with numbers. 120 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: If you want me to follow up, I'll get it 121 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: for you, but a million car miles not driven, you know, 122 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: it was that kind of number. Another example is Pivot Bio, 123 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: which has again I don't know the acres under management, 124 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: but every acre that Pivot has its fertilizer substitute, which 125 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: is a microbe. Every acre that's a fertilizer that's avoided, 126 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: and the Haberbosh derived fertilizer accounts for what five to 127 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: seven percent of global greenhouse gas emissions. We have some 128 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: battery companies that are now starting to deploy, We have 129 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: some solar companies that have again also had avoided emissions. 130 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a decent solid number that are coming. 131 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: Many of them are at that inflection point where we 132 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: can also point in the next few years those emission 133 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: avoidances or reductions will continue to grow. The model of 134 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: venture capital is to make many bets yes, early on, Yes, 135 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: risky bets. Yes, very few will succeed, yes, and some 136 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: of those that succeed violently will pay for the many, 137 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: many failures that we're funded. Yes, what succeeds. How much 138 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: of that is luck? That's an interesting question. I don't 139 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: think it is luck. I don't think that's the right word. No, No, No, 140 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: it's almost like it's not the right concept. I'm having 141 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: trouble with the word luck, and I'm wondering why am 142 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: I having trouble with it? Because yeah, and the simplest formulation, 143 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: luck does matter, it plays a role. But I'm thinking 144 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: of some specific companies that I've had the privilege to 145 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: be involved with, and you could say, oh, they got 146 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: lucky there, But then you can sort of fall back 147 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: like what I really did was I chose the right 148 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: set of entrepreneurs. There's a company that's public now in 149 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: our portfolio called Quantum Scape, led by Jagdeep Singh, and 150 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: I think quantum Scape is his third or fourth successful venture, 151 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,719 Speaker 1: at least by financial metrics. Quantum Scape still has a 152 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: ways to go. But the original chemistry, the original idea 153 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: for the battery was nothing about what they eventually are 154 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: bringing to market now. It was a completely different set 155 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: of physics principles that they were investigating. And then even 156 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: the earliest iterations of the electrochemical battery that they started 157 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: and on were very different from what they ended up with. 158 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: So was it luck that they made those discoveries or 159 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: was it an incredible team backed by supportive venture capitalists 160 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: who saw that this was a team that was solving 161 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: problems and pivoting and making changes that succeeded. Was it 162 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 1: luck or was it a great team? So another way 163 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: to ask that question then, is would the company have 164 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: succeeded regardless of whether Prelude bet on it, because the 165 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: fundamentals of the company and the people and the ideas 166 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: and the grit and the combination and the pivots would 167 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: have happened regardless of the money where it came from, 168 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: whether it came from Prelude or somebody else. I think 169 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: there's some people. I think there's some entrepreneurs who are 170 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: going to succeed for whom the money is just a 171 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: source of fuel. I think there's a small segment of those. 172 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: I think there's a much larger middle range that says, yes, 173 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: they succeeded, and yes they probably would have succeeded with 174 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: whomever backed them. But those people, those investors did something 175 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: to help them out. I was involved in, and I'm sorry, 176 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: I'm obviously going to use no names on these kind 177 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: of descriptions. I held hands through, you know, six or 178 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: nine months with the CEO. We were on the phone 179 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: multiple times per week trying to sort out what was 180 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: going on in the company. I wasn't helping with the 181 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: tech like, let's be clear, and I had no helpful 182 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: insights into that in the least, but I was working 183 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: super closely with the CEO and the founding team to 184 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: help sort of solve the problems or the challenges on 185 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: the business side and on the investors side. And one 186 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: of the most rewarding things of my career is when 187 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: the technical founder, not just the CEO, said to me 188 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: after we had this exit. He said, you know, we 189 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: sat back and had identified a number of single points 190 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: of failure, and you were one of them. Had you 191 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: not been there, this company would have failed. So there's 192 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: also circumstances like that. A mentor told me early in 193 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: my career, you spend most of your time with your 194 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: problem children. You spend a lot of your time as 195 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: a VC helping the ones who need the help rather 196 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: than the ones who are just crushing it, who just 197 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: call you when they need some advice. And the most 198 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: gratifying part is when you find somebody or a team 199 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: that needs the help not out of distress, but because 200 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: you know something or have a set of experience that 201 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: they do not have, and that's the real joy and 202 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: fun part of investing in seed in a round companies 203 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: because I've been there and seen it a bunch of times, 204 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: and I can say, let's put that down, let's not 205 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: focus on that now. So that's at least for me, 206 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: what's really fun about the job when I find those 207 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: circumstances where I can add expertise in a way. When 208 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: a company succeeds, the kind of people who get credit 209 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: for that success is the people who run the company 210 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: most of the time. Is the CEO, is the chief 211 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: technology officer. If what you're saying is true, which is 212 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: venture capital investors like you are involved in their success partially, 213 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: then why do we not hear those names because credit 214 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: is being apportioned where it is due. Like, let's be honest. 215 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: I'll say it here, I'll say it whenever anybody asks, 216 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: my job is so much easier than theirs. I have 217 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: to your point, which metric do you want to look at? 218 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: They're solving hard technical, hard business, hard fundraising, hard hr 219 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: hard corporate development problems and they are all in on it, right. 220 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: They've pushed their chips to the center of the table 221 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: on this company. And sure you know, Silicon Valley has 222 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: a culture of celebrating or at least valuing failure. But 223 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's nothing fun about working hard on something 224 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 1: for two, three, five, seven years and then having it 225 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: not produce value, or having it produce value for somebody else. 226 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: Like that is kind of a hard thing that sucks, right, 227 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: And as you point out earlier, I have a portfolio. 228 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: So if I get to be on the stage when 229 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: they ring the bell on the podium, when they ring 230 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: the bell on the NASDAC or the New York Stock Exchange, 231 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: but I'm the guy in the back corner not getting 232 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: any credit as the CEO and her team are celebrating, 233 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: and I get to go to that dinner that night 234 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: and somebody says, oh was that fun, Gabriel, And I 235 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: get to say, yeah, that was great, Like that's about 236 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: the right proportion of that's probably more credit than I 237 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: deserve at that moment. Okay, So the next thing we 238 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: talked about requires some context. US investments and climate startups 239 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: can be quite neatly split into two eras. The first one, 240 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: clean Tech one point zero, started around the mid two thousands. 241 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: Investors plout a bunch of money into startups and then 242 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: didn't make much in return. A lot of the technology 243 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: didn't work or couldn't scale. Then came clean tech two 244 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: point zero that started in twenty twelve and we are 245 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: still in it. I asked Gabriel what changed between the 246 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: two ears of investing and what lessons we learned? I 247 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: think a lot of things have changed, and some things 248 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: fundamentally may have not changed. If you think about clean 249 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: tech one doto and let's use clean tech firs climate 250 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: tech just because it's a simple lexicon. But if you 251 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: think then about clean tech, and it really came out 252 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: in the you know, so it really launched, say two 253 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: thousand and five, and it reached its heyday, its peak 254 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: just before the financial crisis hit. There were a lot 255 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: of things that were more poorly understood back then, and 256 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: a lot of things that were the building blocks of 257 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: what climate tech is make possible that weren't around yet. 258 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: So if you think about what it takes to scale solar, 259 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: the venture dollars that went into solar, they and we 260 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: didn't quite understand what it took to make a really 261 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: big business and what were the risks of scaling those businesses. 262 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: So those were some mistakes. And also on the solar side. Again, 263 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: the volume of the capital that would be required and 264 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: where it was going to come from. Really a lot 265 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: of that money just came from the Chinese government. This 266 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: is the story of so many clean tech industries. The 267 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: technology is perfected in the US with its labs and 268 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: its scientists and talent coming from all over the world. 269 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: But then the tragedy for the inventors is that there 270 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: is no way to get to the next stage, the 271 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: bigger stage, remember the value of death. That's where these 272 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: companies end up. China, on the other hand, has a 273 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: planned economy, and that means if they decide that they 274 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: want to dominate the clean energy market, they can do it. 275 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: It's government pours money in at a scale no other 276 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: country matches. This is what happened with solar, It's what 277 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: happened with batteries, and it's what's happening now with hydrogen. 278 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: It might mean disappointing returns for American venture capitalists, but 279 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: for the world it isn't that good. Now back to Gabriel, 280 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: fast forward to today. We now have the cheapest form 281 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: of electricity on the planet. Most everywhere you look is 282 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: either solar wind or some combination thereof. We worked a 283 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: ton on batteries. A lot of money went into batteries, 284 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 1: both electric and others, starting in two thousand and seven 285 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 1: or eight, maybe maybe even a little bit earlier, and 286 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: a lot of those companies just flat out failed. The 287 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: electro chemistry didn't work, the scaling didn't work. But some 288 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: of them are succeeding. And also just some of the 289 00:17:54,680 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: lithium ion bolt manufacturing of those batteries that wasn't that 290 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: wasn't really even at that point, ventures backed came down 291 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: the cost curve, So now we have lithium ion batteries 292 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: that serve one purpose electric vehicles. Those things came hugely 293 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: down the cost curve. The advances in machine learning and 294 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: in computer cloud computing, and in the capabilities that you 295 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: can now bring to bear to solve hard problems between 296 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: two thousand and five when that first wave started and 297 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: two fifteen when the second wave started, arbitrarily enable companies 298 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: to do lots of things that they couldn't do in 299 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: that first wave. And then the last thing that's different. 300 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: If you recall the climate bill debate and the climate 301 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: urgency in two thousand and eight or two thousand and nine, 302 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: there was not the urgency and the fierce understanding back 303 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: then that we have now. I went to all the 304 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 1: early RPE conferences and that's the Advanced Energy Bent from 305 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: the Department of Energy, That's right, And from two thousand 306 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: and nine to the early parts of the next decade, 307 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: that conference was kind of where everybody gathered who was 308 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: worrying about thinking about clean tech and climate tech. And yes, 309 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: all of those conferences and others had this sense of urgency. 310 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: But now I firmly believe that people, corporations, governments all understand. 311 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: And I'm smiling because obviously our government has some barriers there, 312 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: but by and large, there is a far different environment 313 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: and it has flowed through to the capital markets. And 314 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: I'm saying capital markets from venture early stage to late 315 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: stage growth to projects, etc. There is capital available for 316 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: great entrepreneurs or even and good entrepreneurs to tackle really 317 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: hard problems in a way that wasn't available in that 318 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: first wave. So I think the core technologies have changed, 319 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: the participants have changed, the capital availability has changed, the 320 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: building blocks have changed, and that is what is leading 321 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: to this second more successful wave of innovation. And it's 322 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: not just on the venture side. I firmly believe this 323 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: is a system's problem. I love venture capital. It's what 324 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: I do. I wake up every day think about how 325 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: to invest in great entrepreneurs solving really hard problems. Venture 326 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: capital is not going to solve this problem alone. It's 327 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: a structural problem of the economy. It's that we didn't 328 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: realize for two hundred years that we were creating this 329 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: really massive problem, and it's going to take structural, systemic 330 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: change to solve it. After the break, I talked to 331 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: Gabriel about the US Climate bill and an unforgetable conference 332 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: we attended last year. And if you were wondering about 333 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: the companies Gabriel invested in and the emissions they avoided 334 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: over their lifetime so far, Gabriel did follow up with 335 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: the numbers. One of his solar companies, Renewed Financial, avoided 336 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: about one point five million tons equivalent into three hundred 337 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: thousand cars taken off the road for one year, and 338 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: the fertilizer company Pivot Bio, has avoided about half a 339 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: million tons of emissions. We'll be back after the break. 340 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 1: So the US has passed its largest climate bill, funnily 341 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: named Inflation Reduction Act. Yeah, it's going to do a 342 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: lot of climate things is it going to help startups? 343 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: So yes, if we ended this conversation right now, like 344 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: the answer is yes if you are a battery manufacturer 345 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: for long duration storage or for I think it's also 346 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: for electric storage, but I've been focused on the long 347 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: duration storage. There are a number of ways that it helps. First, 348 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: there is if you manufacture domestically, production tax credit, direct 349 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: pay production tax credit that makes it economic for us 350 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: to manufacture and sell from day zero, right right right. 351 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: If you're wondering how these tax credits can help, let's 352 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: take an example. Say you're a young company with a 353 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: breakthrough idea for carbon capture Congress. Now you need money 354 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: to buy supplies, hire people, and build factories, and that's 355 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: where tax credits come in. Prior to the Inflation Reduction Act, 356 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: the US government wanted to grow a domestic carbon captured industry, 357 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: but it wouldn't give you cash. Instead, it would give 358 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: you a tax credit, money you can get back on 359 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: your income tax. Of course, you barely have an income 360 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: and this tax credit might seem useless, unless, of course, 361 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: you can find someone who does have a lot of 362 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: taxable income, like a bank. They buy a tax credit 363 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: from you, usually not at one hundred percent face value, 364 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: but at least now you have some cash. That's a 365 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: long process and you didn't get all the benefits in 366 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: the new Climate Bill. There is a shortcut for some. 367 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: It's called direct pay, and you can cash tax credits 368 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: directly from the US government, something that Gabriel is a 369 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: fan off. So that has all sorts of phenomenal impacts. One, 370 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: it's great for the company. It also enables us to 371 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: go faster and to bring down our cost faster, because 372 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: now we're saying, let's just manufacture as much as we 373 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: can and sell these batteries, and we can do that 374 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: sooner faster and get down those cost curves faster. It also, 375 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: by the way, brings that manufacturer unequivocally on shore. If 376 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: there was a doubt, this keeps it on shore. There's 377 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 1: similar provisions in the supply chain for electric vehicle batteries. 378 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: In particular, I already know of a bunch of startups 379 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: that are worse not certain where they were going to manufacture. 380 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: They now know where they're going to manufacture. And I 381 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: also know a bunch of bigger companies are thinking through 382 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: how do we get those materials, Get those raw materials, 383 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: get that supply chain on shore because they're going to 384 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: have some of the credits. They'll probably go through a 385 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: period of time where they can't quite take advantage of 386 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: all the onshore credits, and then they're going to be 387 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: able to bring them on shore. That's on the production side. 388 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: On the demand side, for again, I'll stick with batteries 389 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: for now, there is a standalone storage investment tax credit, 390 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: and that again creates the demand for the company. So 391 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: whereas before we were feeling that we knew our progression 392 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: and we actually had a pretty robust and strong progression, 393 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: now people are beating down our doors because now they 394 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: know that they can afford the batteries. Before there was 395 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: a limited number of use cases where people really knew 396 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,239 Speaker 1: it and believed it, and we believed we were going 397 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 1: to grow that over time. That that market size has 398 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: just increased since you got arrested, obviously, there have been 399 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: plenty of environmental protests. If anything, they have grown in number, 400 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: and there are a lot more people getting arrested because 401 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: clearly emissions haven't started declining and the level of CO 402 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: two in the atmosphere keeps going up. Will you get 403 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: arrested again? Never say never, but we were together in 404 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: at the TED conference in Edinburgh on climate upshot and 405 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: Lauren McDonald had the most powerful moment that I've witnessed 406 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: in a very long time on climate where she walked 407 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: off the stage that she was sharing with Ben van Burne, 408 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: the CEO of Shell Disproportionately in the global South, so 409 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: many people are already dying due to issues related to 410 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: the climate crisis, such as pollution, extreme heat, and weather 411 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: related disasters. This is not and you are directly responsible 412 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: for those deaths. And it was a staged protest, and 413 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: you know, some other members from her group came in 414 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: and they had a banner and they were trying to 415 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: shut down an offshore oil project off the coast of Scotland, 416 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: and they the protesters asked everybody in the audience to 417 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 1: walk out with them, and I sat there wondering where 418 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: did I belong? Did I belong in the audience because 419 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: I thought it was a really interesting conversation. It was 420 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: Ben van burn Christiana Figueras, and the Hedge Fund activist, 421 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 1: So I thought that was a really interesting conversation. And 422 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 1: then after sitting there for an extra minute, I said, 423 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, I want to be outside, so I walked 424 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: out to join the protesters after sitting there really confused 425 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: for a couple of minutes. Where did I belong? What 426 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: did I want to do? And I didn't quite join them, 427 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 1: you know, chanting slogans and waving my fist. But I 428 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: also stayed out there for quite a while and only 429 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: went back inside and watched the remainder of the on 430 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: video in the lobby. I said, I wanted to respect 431 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: their action and not walk back into the theater. That 432 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: action sparked a lot of conversation, both at the conference 433 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: and in the weeks after. Was she right, should she 434 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: have staged? Should she have you know, engaged in dialogue? 435 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: Could she have had a better outcome? And I thought, 436 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: and I still think, no, she did really well. Like 437 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: I don't think she could have done better with that 438 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: stage at that point in time, because here I am 439 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: almost a year later, we're still talking about it. But 440 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 1: we will never forget what you have done and what 441 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: Shale has done. I hope you know that as the 442 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: climate crisis gets more and more deadly, you will be 443 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: to blame and I will not be sharing this poll 444 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: game with you anymore. Lauren's And that's a shame and 445 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: I'm really sorry. Thank you for reminding me, because we 446 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 1: had such a great conversation after that. The entire conference 447 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: was just talking about that. Suddenly you had this three 448 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: day for day galas turn into one five minute window, right, 449 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: and most people were not on your side. I think 450 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, most people were like, well, there is 451 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: the CEO of Shelves sitting on a stage at a 452 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: climate conference, willing to get in a conversation with you, 453 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: the climate activist, and what do you do. You get up, 454 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: you call him names, you say you have failed to 455 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: engage with us. We don't think you will engage now, 456 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: and we are going to walk out. So why do 457 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: you think that is still the right thing to have done? 458 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: Because of who she is and who he is and 459 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: what are their respective roles. When I was on that 460 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: side of that interaction, I knew that I was not 461 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: necessarily going to convince that other person that they were wrong, 462 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: and I was right. But that's not the goal. The 463 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: goal is to draw attention to the problem. The goal 464 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: is to shine a light on something, and the goal 465 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: is to get lots of other people thinking about it 466 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: and talking about it. Ben van Burden is paid a 467 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: whole heck of a lot of money to run a 468 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: very large company, and it's his job to beat up 469 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: there and to take that heat. That is actually one 470 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: of the biggest things he's paid to do, right, and 471 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: he's probably really good at it. He wasn't going to 472 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: give up anything up there on stage, but she created 473 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: a situation where everybody knew about this problem that she 474 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: was trying to stop, and I believe that offshore field 475 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: eventually got pulled. So yeah, so the protest was for 476 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: stopping the Campbell oil field. She was trying to get 477 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: permission for. That's in the Nazi in the UK, and 478 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: Campbell Wilfield did not get its permissions, except now it's 479 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: back on the table because of where we are with 480 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: island gas prices. Yeah, well, that's the nature of being 481 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: an activist, not around climate. But I can remember a 482 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: good friend of mine when I was still working for 483 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: a Greenpeace, my friend Fred, when the Japanese announced that 484 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: they were going to resume whaling in certain regions. And again, 485 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: remember this is nineteen ninety one, when whaling was still 486 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: an issue. I don't know if it's still is or not. 487 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: Excuse my ignorance, but Fred was like, what didn't. Didn't 488 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: we win on that back in the early eighties. Why 489 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: are we fighting that again? You know? But that's the 490 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: nature of the beast that this crisis in Europe, or 491 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: the global crisis precipitated by Putin invading Ukraine for his 492 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: own reasons that have nothing to do with climate right, 493 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: have created circumstance dances where a lot of entities, governments, companies, 494 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: individuals have some really hard choices to make, and those 495 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: choices have to balance out long term climate impact with 496 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: some real short term pain that people are going to 497 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: feel this winter and next winter. They are very likely 498 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: to be not shortages but absences of natural gas for 499 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: heating in Europe, and people will be cold and maybe 500 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: also without electricity in many cases. And the solution to 501 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: that of the rising prices of importing more LNG to 502 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: Europe means other countries who don't have the economic resources 503 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: that the developed European nations have are going to have 504 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: to pay more for their leg or go without. So 505 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: this is just going to ripple across from the most 506 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: advantaged to the least advantaged communities, both within Europe and globally. 507 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: And short term answers of building more LNG facilities don't 508 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: necessarily come online fast enough to have an impact, But 509 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: I have thirty year implications on climate, So you're always 510 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: finding the same battles over and over again, and we 511 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: just have to keep working on it. That was a 512 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: great conversation. Thank you for taking all the hard questions. 513 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: I appreciate just the opportunity to have this conversation, and 514 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: I think we're at an inflection point and it's a 515 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: wonderful opportunity to actually reflect back on the last ten 516 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: or fifteen years and sort of gaze a little bit 517 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: into the future. Let's gaze into that future a little more, 518 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: because currently there is a lot of noise about a recession. 519 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: If that happens, you might as that it will doom 520 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: investments in clean technologies. It happened the last time, but 521 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: all the venture capitalists I spoke to on my trip 522 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: left me thinking that this time is different. The clean 523 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: tech boom, with the backing of this new climate bill, 524 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: may even be recession proof. As for Lauren McDonald, in 525 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: addition to the Cambo oil field, which is back on 526 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: the table because of the energy crisis, she's now campaigning 527 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: against new gas field called Jackdaw Another Shell Project. Thanks 528 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: for listening to Zero. If you like the show, please rate, 529 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: review and subscribe. Tell a friend or tell a cousin. 530 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: If you've got a suggestion for a guest or topic 531 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: or something you want us to look into, get in 532 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: touch at zero pod at Bloomberg dot net. Zero is 533 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: produced by Christine Driscoll and Oscar boyd Our theme song 534 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderlely. Many people help make the show 535 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: each week. I'll tell you about one of them this week, 536 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: thanks to Kira Bindram. She's the editor of Greener Living 537 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: and she never kills a joke without coming up with 538 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: a better punchline first. I'm Akshatrati back next week.