1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety, eighteen year old Tyrone Noling lived with 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: friends whose ages ranged from fourteen to twenty in Alliance, Ohio. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: With no real adult supervision or resources, The boys engaged 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: in several minor robberies, including one where Tyrone had accidentally 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: fired a stolen twenty five caliber pistol into the floor 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: and no one was hurt. The young men were arrested 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: and Tyrone and his friend Gary Saint Clair pled guilty 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: around that same time. One county away, in Atwater, Ohio, 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: on April fifth, nineteen ninety, Bernhardt and Cora Harding were 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: shot to death in their home with a twenty five 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: caliber gun. The sheriff's office immediately had several leads, including 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: Tyrone and his friends, but after ballistics testing showed that 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: Tyrone's twenty five caliber gun was not a match to 14 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: the murder weapon, and with no other physical evidence or 15 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: eyewitness accounts, Tyrone and his friends were dismissed as suspects. Nevertheless, 16 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: when the investigation failed to nail the other more viable suspects, 17 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: investigators turned back to Tyrone and his friends, who were 18 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: coerced into turning on one another by lies about non 19 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: existent evidence and the real threat of the death penalty. 20 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: His friends Joey Dallasandro, Butch Walcott and Gary Saint Clair 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: agreed to tout the false narrative in which Tyrone and 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: Gary Saint Clair murdered the Hardings testimony they all later recanted. However, 23 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,639 Speaker 1: without knowledge of the much more likely suspects, and only 24 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: presented with the false testimonies, the jury sent Tyrone to 25 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: death row, from where he and the Ohioanists Project continue 26 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: to fight to clear his name to this very day. 27 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. This 28 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: is a hard one even for me, because this is 29 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: one of the most twisted, entangled, nonsensical and I'm gonna 30 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: say evil, wrongful convictions that I know of. And of 31 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: course I'm referring to the case of Tyrone Noling. Tyrone 32 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: has been on death row in Ohio for over thirty years, 33 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: where he remains to this day and with us today 34 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: to talk about the case. Is a man who knows 35 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 1: it like the back of his hand. Brian how Brian 36 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: is an attorney with the Ohio Innocence Project. So, Brian, 37 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: I'm glad you're here. But Jesus, this is gonna be 38 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: a tough one. Thanks Jason and Tyrone. I'm so glad 39 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: you're here with us today, even though I'm so very 40 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: sorry because of the reason why you're here and even 41 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: more so because of where you are. Thank you So, Tyrone, 42 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: let's start by going back before everything that's happened. What 43 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: was your life like growing up? 44 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: I grew up in a small town outside of kant 45 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: Ohio in Star County called Alliance. I grew up in 46 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: a one parent home with four other siblings, and my 47 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: childhood was like any other childhood. Did sports, went to school, 48 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 2: and as I got older, I got in a little trouble, 49 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: but for the most part, life at home was pretty good. 50 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: Turned eighteen and pretty much found myself on my own, 51 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: just hanging out with a group of friends that I. 52 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 3: Had grew up with. 53 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: And the group of friends that you mentioned here. You're 54 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: talking about Johnny Trandafer, Gary Saint Clair and Joseph Alasandra 55 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: and Butch Walcott, and the latter three all play a 56 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: part in this wrongful conviction. Now, you all were staying 57 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: together in the same house, right. 58 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't really know Butch Wilcock. I grew up 59 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: with Gary Saint Clair and Joey Dallas Sandro. We lived 60 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 2: pretty much in the same neighborhood and knew each other 61 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: since kindergarten. Gary's stepdad had an accident and the house 62 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: became vacant, so we all just started congregating there. 63 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 3: We were just hanging out. We were doing dumb stuff, 64 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 3: you know, Bot pizza Chase. 65 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: Girl was stayed up late and Brian, I want to 66 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: bring you back in here. So, like Tyrone says, he 67 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: was getting into some trouble, which is what leads to 68 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: the connection with this crime. 69 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 4: Right sure, I mean the reason that Tyrone was on 70 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 4: the radar of investigators was that there were two burglaries 71 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 4: that happened the next county over that Tyrone was ultimately 72 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 4: arrested for I'm pleaded guilty to. And those robberies were 73 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 4: what made him a target in the Harding murder investigation 74 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 4: to begin with. 75 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: Right, Tyrone and the other young men were involved in 76 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,679 Speaker 1: some burglaries, and in one he did have a gun 77 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: that they got from another robbery, and the gun went 78 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: off accidentally and shot directly into the floor. But Tyrone 79 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: made sure that no one was hurt before running away. 80 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: I mean, this is not a guy who was out 81 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: to hurt anyone. He was definitely doing some very dumb things, 82 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: but not a violent and he was arrested for those robberies, 83 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: pled guilty, and ended up serving time in prison. And 84 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: that leads us up to this crime, which happens faithfully 85 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: around the same time. I'm talking about April fifth, nineteen ninety, 86 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: which is when Bernhardt and Cora Harding, both eighty one 87 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: years old, were shot to death in their own home. 88 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: From the look of things, they had been doing some 89 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: spring cleaning and they were shot while sitting at their 90 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: dining room table. This isn't at Water, Ohio, which is 91 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: a rural town in Portage County. 92 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 4: And if you don't know at Water, Ohio, it's almost 93 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 4: a stretch to call it a town. The people who 94 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 4: live within a square mile of this you could count 95 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 4: on your hands. 96 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: So let me set the stage. Saturday, April seventh, nineteen ninety, 97 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: at six fifteen pm, Chief Detective Dwayne Cayley was notified 98 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: by dispatcher Kathy Rabino that Jim Rabino had called and 99 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: reported that there were two people laying on the kitchen 100 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: floor at the neighbor's house. Jim's mother, who had lived 101 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: next door to the Heartigs for thirty years, asked him 102 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: to go check on them when she noticed their garage 103 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: had been open with the lawnmower outside for almost three days. 104 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: There was no answer when he knocked on the door, 105 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: and their car was in the garage. He looked inside 106 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: and saw the Heardgs laying on the kitchen floor. Now 107 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: ten twenty five caliber shellcases were found on the floor 108 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: of the Hartig home. Papers from the living room desk 109 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: were scattered around the room. Dresser drawers and jewelry boxes 110 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: were open and had been rifled through. At this point, 111 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: Detective Kayley reported that there didn't seem to be any 112 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: signs of struggle from the victims. Mister Hardigs wallet was 113 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: in his pocket and the money was still inside, so 114 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: there was no force entry found in the house, and 115 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: it seemed as if there had been at least one 116 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: other person sitting at the kitchen table. You want to 117 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: take it from here, because this gets weirder and weirder. 118 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 4: Sure, so, it's not a usual occurrence in at Water, 119 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 4: Ohio to have a double murder, especially eighty plus year 120 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 4: old victims, and so the Sheriff's department began investigating one 121 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 4: of the first leads that they had, and this is 122 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 4: even as they are processing the scene, they get a 123 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 4: call from a roller rink, maybe a couple of miles away, 124 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 4: and there is a person there saying that he lost 125 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 4: a twenty five caliber pistol there on Friday night. He 126 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 4: was looking for it, trying to see if anyone had 127 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 4: turned it in. He was worried that some kids were 128 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 4: going to find it. And the person is a man 129 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 4: named Dennis van Steinberg who lived. 130 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 3: In the area. 131 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 4: Police investigate that, but while they're doing that, leads are 132 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 4: sort of pouring in. Right, this is a big deal 133 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 4: in the county, it's a big deal in the city. 134 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 4: One of the tips that they get again almost right away, 135 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 4: is from a high school student named Nathan Chesley, and 136 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 4: he says that my foster brother told me that he 137 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 4: was the person who had killed the Heartiggs and so 138 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 4: police are investigating that lead as well. 139 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so right off the bat, they have some pretty 140 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: strong leads here, right, So what's going on with the 141 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: first guy, Dennis van Steinberg. 142 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 4: They go talk to him. He says, well, yes, I 143 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 4: did have a twenty five. I don't know where it went. 144 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 4: It must have fallen out of my car or something 145 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 4: like that around the time of the murders. He said 146 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 4: he had found it. So the police check the pistol 147 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 4: to the ballistics of the rounds were covered from the 148 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 4: scene and it's not a match. And so at that 149 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 4: point the investigation into van Steinberg sort of fades away. 150 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 4: In the meantime, a police have followed up on Nathan 151 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 4: Chesley's tip. They go to his house, which is a 152 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 4: woman who had fostered a lot of sort of troubled 153 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 4: teens in the area. It's less than a mile and 154 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 4: a half from the scene, and you remember, there's not 155 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 4: a lot of people who live as close as Nathan 156 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 4: Chesley did to the victims in this case, and so 157 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 4: the police ask whether there's a foster brother around who 158 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 4: they can interview, and they're told there's a foster brother. 159 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 4: He's only fourteen years old, and they eliminate this foster 160 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 4: brother pretty quickly. In the meantime, they also get a 161 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 4: tip from the neighboring county, Stark County. Stark County has 162 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 4: been investigating a series of break in where a group 163 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 4: of teenagers has been going to various houses saying my 164 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 4: car broke down and I'd like to use your telephone. 165 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 4: When they're let inside the house, they then produce a 166 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 4: shotgun and it turns out to be a fake thirty 167 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 4: eight caliber revolver, and they take various valuables VCRs, jewelry, 168 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 4: things like that, and that turns out to be Tyrone 169 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 4: Noling and his co defendants. So Tyrone is arrested with 170 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 4: this code defendants and they find a twenty five caliber gun, 171 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 4: so now it's very interesting to the Porche County authorities. 172 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 4: They test that one for ballistics and it turns out 173 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 4: that it does not match the one that was used 174 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 4: in the crime. 175 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no getting around that. So at this 176 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: point the Sheriff no Oh is that these guys, Tyrone 177 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: and his friends are not involved in the murders. 178 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 4: So at that point the investigation sort of stalls out 179 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 4: for about a year. The detectives are facing pressure, they 180 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 4: come up with another lead. This time they talk to 181 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 4: the Hardiggs doctor doctor canone. The week before the bodies 182 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 4: were found, mister Hardigg told doctor Canon that he had 183 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 4: lent ten thousand dollars to an insurance salesman that the 184 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 4: insurance salesman had failed to pay. When the loan had 185 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 4: come due on April first, that something fishy was going 186 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 4: on with this loan and with the insurance salesman explanation 187 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 4: for why I refused to pay, and as soon as 188 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 4: he got off the phone with doctor Canone, he was 189 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 4: going to go sort this out with the insurance salesman. 190 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 4: The police start to look at insurance salesmen that the 191 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 4: Heartiggs had dealt with. Then they find a man named 192 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 4: Lewis Leman. Lewis Leman denies having taken out alone, but 193 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 4: he was the insurance salesman for the Heartiggs. And what's more, 194 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 4: he had a twenty five caliber pistol as well. Unlike 195 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 4: the other two pistols that the police have compared, they're 196 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 4: able to look up the make and model and see 197 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 4: that the pistol Leeman had was consistent with the general 198 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 4: rifling characteristics of the rounds that were found in the house. 199 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 4: They asked Leman where his twenty five cal pistol was. 200 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 4: He said, well, I must have sold it. I don't 201 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 4: remember who bought it, I don't remember when I sold it, 202 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 4: and I'm done answering questions from you all. He refused 203 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 4: to take a lot of detector test and basically stopped 204 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 4: talking to detectives, and at that point the investigation had 205 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 4: basically completely stalled out. 206 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: So this lead with Lehman, I mean, if this was 207 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: a movie script, you'd say that this is it was 208 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: too obvious. Right. What I'm trying to wrap my head 209 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: around here is this sounds like the investigators are just 210 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: bungling this at every stage and we haven't even gotten 211 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: to one of the craziest leads, and that is this guy, 212 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: Dan Wilson. 213 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 4: That's right, Dan Wilson is arrested for a murder a 214 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 4: few counties over in northern Ohio. Dan had gotten drunk, 215 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 4: put a young woman that he'd met earlier that night 216 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 4: in the trunk of his car, and set the car 217 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 4: on fire. This was very big news, and law enforcement 218 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 4: across northeast Ohio started looking at Dan for basically every 219 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 4: unsolved murder that they had that included the Portis County 220 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 4: Sheriff's Department. When they did that, they discovered something about 221 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 4: Dan Wilson that they'd missed earlier, and that is that 222 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 4: he was a foster brother of Nathan Chesney, the very 223 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 4: kid who came to them the day after the murder 224 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 4: and said, my foster brother confessed to that when the 225 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 4: detectives followed up on that, they never interviewed Nathan Chesley 226 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 4: and eliminated the wrong foster brother. They never connected the 227 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 4: dots to Dan Wilson, they never bothered to interview Nathan Chesley, 228 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 4: and so Dan Wilson, who lived within a mile of 229 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 4: the house and who police now believe is a serial killer, 230 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 4: was owing to them almost immediately after the murder, and 231 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 4: they let it slip through their fingers. He went on 232 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 4: to kill another woman. You know, at the very least, 233 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 4: I think it must have been embarrassing to the office 234 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 4: that they had this tip within days of the murder, 235 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 4: and they didn't realize their mistake until Dan Wilson had 236 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 4: committed another very high profile murder. Right at the same 237 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 4: time that that's happening. Someone gets a called from a 238 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 4: woman named Marlene van Steinberg. She is, I believe the 239 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 4: aunt of Dennis van Steinberg, again, who was the very 240 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 4: first person who they'd looked at and who they eliminated 241 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 4: after he turned into his weapon. Well, Marlene says that 242 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 4: in those first days of the investigation, Dennis's father had 243 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 4: come over to their house and asked his brother who 244 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 4: is Marlene's husband if he could borrow his twenty five 245 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 4: caliber pistol for a few weeks. And when Richard van 246 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 4: Steinberg asked, why do you need my twenty five, the 247 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 4: response was, well, Dennis had to get rid of his 248 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 4: because he was in some sort of trouble with the 249 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 4: police and he needed a different one to give the police, 250 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 4: and so they ultimately gave it to him, and that 251 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 4: was the weapon that was turned into the police and eliminated. 252 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 4: What's more, Marlene says that she called the police to 253 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 4: tell them this during that original investigation, So the police 254 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 4: should have been on notice that Dennis van Steinberg is 255 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 4: turning in the wrong gun for comparison purposes, and they 256 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 4: still eliminated van Steinberg as a suspect. So those two 257 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 4: things are happening right back to back. Dan Wilson comes 258 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 4: to light, and it comes to light that they basically 259 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 4: wasted a ballistic comparison on what they should have known 260 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 4: was the wrong gun, Dennis van Steinberg. 261 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: So we have these incredibly powerful leads that should have 262 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: led them not towards but away from those four boys, 263 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: because there's no connection between these nefarious characters and the 264 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: four kids. What happens next. 265 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 4: So that is when the Porridge County Prosecuting Attorney's office 266 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 4: takes over the investigation and they assigned their own investigator 267 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 4: to the case, a man named Ron Craig. 268 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: Yes, Ron Craig, let's not skip over this character. From 269 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: my understanding, he was known for his extremely aggressive interrogation techniques, 270 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: for playing fast and loose with the rules in order 271 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: to get results that he wanted. 272 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: That's right. 273 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 4: Ron Craig was a person who the prosecuting Attorney's office 274 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 4: turned to who could crack this case open through aggressive 275 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 4: interrogation get results. That is what he was known for 276 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 4: at that time. If you look at where the investigation 277 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 4: was when they took it over, Dan Wilson at that 278 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 4: time was under indictment for murder. You could not interview 279 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 4: him without an attorney. Lewis Lehman at that point was 280 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 4: not cooperating. He had gotten an attorney as well. Maybe 281 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 4: the most logical place for Ron Craig to go was 282 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 4: back to these other four kids who had also been 283 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 4: eliminated through ballistics and try to see what he could 284 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 4: do in terms of interrogating them. And so he started 285 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 4: with Butch Walcott, who was sixteen years old at the time. 286 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this part it gets more and more disturbing 287 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: because they took these four young kids, and with the 288 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: very real threat of the death penalty, they were able 289 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: to scare these kids and brow beat them into saying 290 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: things that they knew weren't true because they weren't there 291 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: and they didn't know anything. And basically, as in other 292 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: false confession cases or false eyewitness cases that we've seen 293 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: over and over again, they were fed the information by 294 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: the police and then they were given basically a Sophie's choice. 295 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: Either you lie and implicate your friends, or we are 296 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: going to send you to death row. Right, am I missing? 297 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 4: I say no, and I mean for Butch. If you 298 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 4: read the series of interrogations and statements that he makes, 299 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 4: at least my impression is that he was terrified, and 300 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 4: it's clear as he's just trying to do his best. 301 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 4: He continues to insist he wasn't there, He had nothing 302 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 4: to do with this. He tells them everything they want 303 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 4: to know about the two robberies that happened in Stark County, 304 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 4: but he says, we never went to Fordage County, we 305 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 4: never went out to Atwater. He doesn't know where it is, 306 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 4: and that's not an answer that ron Craig is going 307 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 4: to accept. So what they do is they send him 308 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 4: to a child psychologist who then puts Butch, the sixteen 309 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 4: year old kid, under hypnosis in order to recover what 310 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 4: they allege are repressed memories of the murder. And so 311 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 4: under hypnosis, they would ask things like when did the 312 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 4: murder take place? And Butch would say, well, it was 313 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 4: not quite dark, but it was not quite light. I 314 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 4: don't know, maybe somewhere in between. I just don't remember. 315 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 4: And he would give answers like that to every question, 316 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 4: and even these psychologists at the time that if we 317 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 4: keep this up, he's just going to say false things 318 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 4: to try and make the investigators happy because he's so terrified. 319 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 4: But it didn't stop. 320 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: It, right, And I want to also mention that this 321 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: detective ron Craig made sure to separate Butch from his father. 322 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: This detective pressured young Butch Walcott relentlessly lying directly to 323 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: the kid. That's right, that he had hard evidence implicating him, 324 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: including a witness and DNA matches, right, so you know, 325 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: you can imagine what's going on in this poor kid's 326 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: brain where it's just getting completely scrambled. He's just giving 327 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: these answers that don't make any sense. And let us 328 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: not forget that the tape recorder was only turned on 329 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: when Walcott finally made statements that had been fed to 330 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: him that were consistent with what they wanted to hear. Right, 331 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: that was when he implicated the subject of our show today, 332 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: Tyrone noling. And then Craig turned to one of the 333 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: other kids, the Alessandro, who said he knew nothing about 334 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: the murders, but his own attorney convinced him and his 335 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: family that he should plead bargain to avoid the electric chair. 336 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 4: That's right, Yeah, I mean, once they can get Butch 337 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 4: Wolcott to come up with the story, the rest sort 338 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 4: of fall in line at that point. They don't need 339 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 4: to go any further. Tyrone's the main target, and he's 340 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 4: indicted for aggravated murder with capital specifications. Okay. 341 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: In addition to the other guys, Saint Clair pled guilty 342 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: to the Hartig murders as well. Right, he had given 343 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: into pressure from Detective Craig as well as his own 344 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 1: attorneys and his family, and he was understandably scared out 345 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: of his mind about the death penalty, and then Tyrone 346 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: Noling is indicted initially for the murders in nineteen ninety three. 347 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: But this is when things get even weirder. In June 348 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, the court entered a nol pross, which 349 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 1: means that the prosecutor or plaintiffs states that they will 350 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: no longer pursue the matter, so they dismissed the case. 351 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: The whole thing should have wrapped up right there. That 352 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: should have been it. 353 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 4: Well, that's right, And the reason that the case was 354 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 4: initially dismissed was that almost as soon as they had 355 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 4: made the deals, both Joey Delassandro and Gary Saint Clair 356 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 4: started taking them back. You know, it's one thing under 357 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 4: a lot of pressure, under threats, with deals being offered, 358 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 4: to sort of agree to it in the abstract, under 359 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 4: that very immediate pressure. But as the court date actually approached, 360 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 4: Delessandro recanted, asserted their innocence, We had nothing to do 361 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 4: with this, and Gary Saint Clair recanted in a prison interview, 362 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 4: said we lied, we were pressured, we had nothing to 363 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 4: do with this. And at that point I think the 364 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 4: state had no choice but to gree to dismiss the case. 365 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: And Tyrone this all has to be so crazy because 366 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: you have your friends and these guys you've known most 367 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: of your life saying things about this crime that you 368 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: know you weren't a part of, but you're indicted for it. 369 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: And then they dropped the charges. 370 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 2: You know, when they dropped charges against me, I didn't 371 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 2: see it coming. They offered a deal. I took a 372 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: lot detector test and it was placed on the prosecutor's 373 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: desk on that Friday. By Monday, they were rushing me 374 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 2: in the back of a courtroom with a judge saying, 375 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 2: you know, you need to cop out. I don't want 376 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 2: to sentence you to death. And I'm pleading with them 377 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: back there and I'm telling them I didn't do this, 378 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 2: and so they send me back and I'm talking to 379 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 2: my dad on the phone and I'm crying and I'm 380 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 2: saying I don't know what to do. 381 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 3: And my dad says, did you do this? 382 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 2: And I said no, and he just said, well, then 383 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: you stick to your guns. 384 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 3: And that's what I did, even though I knew the 385 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 3: ODSBA against me. 386 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 2: So the next day I go back into the courtroom 387 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 2: and I stand up and the judge says, the prosecutor 388 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 2: wants to say something, and he just misses every charge 389 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: against me. 390 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 3: And I can't even explain the feeling at that point. 391 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 3: I was happy. I wanted to cry, I wanted to yell. 392 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 3: I just wanted to get out of there. 393 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine to have them trying to get 394 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: you to take a deep while they know their case 395 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: is falling apart, but they're still trying to force you 396 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: into it with the very real threat of death, of 397 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: the death penalty, and then to just drop it. It's 398 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: like you get dizzy from this, right, So what happened next? 399 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 2: For three years almost I didn't hear nothing, and then 400 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, a new prosecutor comes in, and 401 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 2: now they got Joey back on board. Once he realizes 402 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 2: all the time he's about to do on other charges 403 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 2: and decides that he's just going to make up some 404 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 2: stuff and remembers everything they want him to say, and I'm. 405 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 3: Being charged again. The nightmare happens once again. 406 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: Brian, what Tyrone is talking about here with the election 407 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: of the new prosecutor in Portage County and Joey Della 408 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: Sandro coming back on what's going on there? 409 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 4: Well, Joey at that point had been serving time on 410 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 4: unrelated charge and was sort of unhappy with his circumstances 411 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 4: and his sentence. He reached back out and explored the 412 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 4: option of what would happen if he did go back 413 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 4: on his recantation and agree to cooperate, which he ultimately 414 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 4: agreed to do. That is what caused the state to 415 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 4: reindict Tyrone Knowling and now with both Butch and Joey Delissandro, 416 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 4: they were ready to reprosecute the case. 417 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: So Tyrone's trial begins in January of nineteen ninety six, 418 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: six years after the crime. Right so, Walcott, Dallesandro, and 419 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: Saint Clair will call this prosecution witnesses. But the former 420 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: two boys gave testimonies that were very inconsistent unsignificant details, 421 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: but they nevertheless supported the state's narrative. They said that 422 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: after the second robbery and their alliance Ohio neighborhood, all 423 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: four boys allegedly drove to Atwater, where Tyrone allegedly chose 424 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: the house to rob. Once they were at the Harding house, 425 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: Dallesandro or Walcott said they waited in the car while 426 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: Noling and Saint Clair allegedly went to the front door. 427 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: Sometime later, according to Walcott and dallas Sandro. Nolan and 428 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: Saint Clair came running from the herding house and got 429 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: back into the car. Dallasandro testified that he allegedly smelled 430 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: smoke coming from Nolan's gun, and that Walcott said he 431 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: saw the gun smoking. They also said that Nolan confessed 432 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: to them. So, Tyrone, you're a trial and you see 433 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: your friends they're telling these crazy lies. Can you take 434 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: us back to that moment? 435 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 3: It was unbelievable. 436 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 2: I've known these guys for all my life and for 437 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: them just to disregard my life and just sit up 438 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 2: and they couldn't even look me in the face. They 439 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 2: just kept their eyes on the prosecutor. And I wanted 440 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: to get up and screen. I wanted to ask them, 441 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 2: why are you doing this? 442 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 1: And so Dallasandra and Walcott are saying these things, but 443 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: Saint Clair decides not to lie for the state anymore. 444 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: He recanted his statement before trial and again courageously did 445 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: it again on the stand. He denied going to Atwater 446 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: and committing the murders. And then he was declared a 447 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: hostile witness. And get this, the state read the entirety 448 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: of his prior statement to the jury which when I 449 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: was reading about this case, I was like, how can 450 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 1: that even for me? That seems beyond the pale. So Brian, 451 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: what did the defense attorney say, I mean the other sect? 452 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: What about the other suspect? 453 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 4: Well, all of these plausible and I think likely alternate 454 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 4: suspects who the police had originally investigated and who the 455 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 4: police hadn't really excluded. None of those names came up 456 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 4: during Tyrone's original trial, and it's plausible to believe that 457 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 4: it's because that information wasn't turned over to the defense 458 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 4: at the time of trial. There was only one theory 459 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 4: ever presented to the jury about who committed the crime, 460 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 4: and there were problems with that theory. There were holes 461 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 4: in that theory. You remember, the twenty five caliber gun 462 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 4: that Tyrone and his friends had taken in the prior 463 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 4: robbery was still excluded. It was not the murder weapon. 464 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 4: So they just had to come up with another story 465 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 4: about how they must have had a second twenty five 466 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 4: caliber gun and they must have picked it up somewhere 467 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 4: and then they got rid of it somewhere. And there 468 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 4: were things about this that didn't make sense. But I 469 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 4: think the community was still really hurt and outraged by 470 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 4: this murder, and they were only really given one theory 471 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 4: as to what happened, and despite the problems in that theory, 472 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 4: he was convicted. 473 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: Huh so, Tyrone, when the jury went out to deliberate, 474 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: did you have any hope at all that things were 475 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: going to go with your favor? 476 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 2: I always stayed optimistic, even though I knew the cars 477 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: were stacked against me. And I kind of remember when 478 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 2: they came and got me from the county jail. They 479 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 2: was taking me up the steps and they were lined 480 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 2: up with deputy sheriffs all the way. 481 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 3: Up, and that had never happened before. So my heart 482 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 3: just sank at that point. And I remember being in 483 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 3: the court room and that the jury coming in and 484 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 3: one of the young ladies that was a Jersey, she 485 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 3: sat down and she looked at me and she started crying, 486 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 3: and I knew it was over. 487 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: Then. 488 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 3: I was scared to death. 489 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 2: I'm about to go someplace that they say is the 490 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 2: worst of the worst. You're sentenced to death, You're sentenced 491 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 2: to doc people that have committed haineous crimes. 492 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm still a young man. 493 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 2: I don't know what to expect, and I have no 494 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: choice because they're going to take me regardless. 495 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: So you have a good team of attorneys filing post 496 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: conviction motions, but they were all denied. And it's important 497 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: to mention here that all of the prosecution's witnesses, all 498 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: of them, Walcott, Dallas, Angele, and Saint Clair, every single 499 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: one of them has since recanted their testimonies. Right. Then, 500 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six, the Ohio Innocon's Project took 501 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: on your case. Can you tell us how that came about? 502 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: Well, my investigator, Vicki buck Walter, was hired on and 503 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 2: she stayed with me after my conviction because she could 504 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: not believe what happened. She helped me contact people, write letters, 505 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 2: and we contacted the Enniscence Project. It was kind of 506 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: weird because Markazi showed up with a couple of students 507 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 2: and I thought I was just going there for an 508 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 2: attorney visit. 509 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 3: I told me I thought he had the wrong room. 510 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 2: And then he proceeded to tell me who he was, 511 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 2: and I just sat down and I felt a weight 512 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: off my shoulders to finally, finally somebody's going to help me. 513 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 3: I had a lot of respect from gratitude. 514 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: For them in those ensuing fifteen years, bringing us right 515 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: up to the present day. They found a ton of 516 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: stuff that made it seem like the doors of the 517 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: prison should have sprung open by now and you should 518 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: have walked free right out into the sunshine. But of 519 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: course we know that that's not how the justice system 520 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: works in Ohio or unfortunately in the rest of our country. 521 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: So Brian, can you tell us what the Ohio Inns 522 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: Project has been doing to fight this case and where 523 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: things are at today. 524 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 4: Originally, the Ohio Innescence Project was representing Tyrone just for 525 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 4: the purposes of trying to get DNA testing, specifically on 526 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 4: a cigarette butt that was found at the scene. The 527 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 4: heartings were very sort of meticulous people. They were not 528 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 4: the kind of people to leave a cigarette butt in 529 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 4: the middle of their driveway, and so there was an 530 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 4: idea that this might have been left by the killer. 531 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 4: It was eventually tested, and of course Tyrone all of 532 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 4: his co defendants were excluded. But there are a few 533 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 4: things that we know one percent were last touched by 534 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 4: the person who committed the crime, and that is the 535 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 4: ten shell casings that were found at the scene, and 536 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 4: the ring boxes and other items that the perpetrator had 537 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 4: rifled through after the crime or during the crime. DNA 538 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 4: technology today is sensitive enough to develop profile from even 539 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 4: just a few human cells, and so the hope was 540 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 4: that if we were able to conduct DNA testing on 541 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 4: those items, that you would develop a clear profile, and 542 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 4: if that profile does not match Tyrone Knowling or any 543 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 4: one of his co defendants, that's going to be very 544 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 4: very strong evidence of his innocence. Unfortunately, we were not 545 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 4: able to convince the court to allow us to conduct 546 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 4: that DNA testing, and so to this day that evidence 547 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 4: has not been tested. In the meantime, Tyrone's other attorneys 548 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 4: had filed a motion for new trial based on very 549 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 4: specific pieces of evidence that were uncovered at the end 550 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 4: of the original investigation by the Sheriff's department. Specifically, first 551 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 4: of all, the Nathan Chesley tip that was uncovered in 552 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 4: Tyrone's co defendants files. Secondly, the statement by Marlene van 553 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 4: Steinberg that the gun that had been eliminated from Dennis 554 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 4: mann Steinberg was not the actual gun that he had 555 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 4: on the night that the murder may have taken place. 556 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 4: And finally, it had been known at the time that 557 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 4: police had excluded Tyrone and his friends from the cigarette 558 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 4: butt using this more primitive protein testing, but they had 559 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 4: been concerned enough about Dan Wilson as a suspect that 560 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 4: they had tested dan Wilson against that cigarette butt and 561 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 4: he was not able to be excluded using that prior 562 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 4: primitive technology that was not turned over we believe to 563 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 4: the defense at the time of the original trial either 564 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 4: now here today. We are still waiting for an opportunity 565 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 4: to fully examine the prosecutor's files, to fully examine the 566 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 4: sheriff's files, to try to see what, if anything, was 567 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 4: in these files that was subject to disclosure back at 568 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 4: the original trial nineteen eighty five, nineteen ninety six. 569 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: God, it's just too much. I mean this one, really, 570 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: it just goes beyond my ability to comprehend. There's so 571 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: many things, and it seems like any one of them, 572 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: in a fair and just system would be enough for 573 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: an adult somewhere to step in and go. This has 574 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: gone on too long, but on it goes, and Tyrone 575 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: remains on death route right now while we're having this conversation. 576 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 4: If he were to get a fair trial today, with 577 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 4: all of the evidence that we know in front of 578 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 4: a jury, there's no chance that he would be convicted 579 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 4: and to be in a world where this is all 580 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 4: sort of continuing to happen. It's continuing to advance in 581 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 4: slow motion. I mean, it's surreal. Certainly. Our hope is 582 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 4: that he is successful in his current post conviction litigation, 583 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 4: that we're able to put this evidence finally in front 584 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 4: of a jury and give him a fair day in court. 585 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: Amen to that, And Tyrone for our audience listening today, 586 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: for someone who wants to see you have that fair shot, 587 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: which I'm sure everyone in our audience does, and who 588 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: wants to help and to get involved with writing this wrong. 589 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: Is there something that you'd like to ask them to do. 590 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 2: I would encourage them to reach out to our governor, 591 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 2: to reach out to stay and local politicians. 592 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 3: I would ask them to be a voice. 593 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 2: Somebody out there knows something, and they can go to 594 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,479 Speaker 2: tyroneoling dot com or they can get a hold of 595 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: the Cincinnati Innosis Project if they're willing to help or 596 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 2: to be a voice, because I need a voice. 597 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 3: I need that more than anything. 598 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll definitely have Tyrone noling dot Com linked in 599 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: our bio, so please go there and learn what steps 600 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: you can take to help. And I also want to 601 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: mention There's a TV docuseriies called death Row Stories that 602 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: did a piece on this case last year called The 603 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: Lost Boy, which shows a very powerful case for the 604 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: actual innocence of Tyron. And with that we turn now 605 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: to closing arguments. This is the part of our show 606 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: where I thank you Tyrone Noling for just being with 607 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: us today sharing your story, and also Brian Howe for 608 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: fighting tirelessly. So again, thank you for doing what you're 609 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: doing and for being here and sharing this awful story 610 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: with our audience. And now closing arguments works just like this. 611 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: I'll kick back in my chair, turn my microphone off, 612 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: leave my headphones, I close my eyes and just listen 613 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: to any final thoughts you want to share. So, Brian, 614 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,919 Speaker 1: why don't you go first and we'll save the best 615 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: for last. And that's of course that's you Tyrone. So 616 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: Brian closing arguments. 617 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 4: Well, you know, first, let me thank you Jason for 618 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 4: what you all are doing here. As surreal as it 619 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 4: sometimes seems that this is still happening, it feels good 620 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 4: to know that people care, that people are paying attention. 621 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 4: It feels good to know that there are people who 622 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 4: care about what's happening in this case and what's happening 623 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 4: to Tyrone. Again, our hope is that people understand what's happening, 624 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 4: that Tyrone get a fair day in court. And the 625 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 4: other thing is is that the fact that Tyrone is innocent. 626 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 4: But I'm personally one hundred percent convinced of You know, 627 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 4: I'm not familiar with every death row case in the country, 628 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 4: but I wouldn't be surprised if he were the strongest 629 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 4: case of innocence of anyone currently on death row. That 630 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 4: means that there's someone who is responsible for this crime 631 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 4: that was never brought to justice. And it means that 632 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 4: there could be someone out there right now who knows 633 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 4: something that may have for whatever reason, not wanted to 634 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 4: come forward and not wanted to get involved. I really 635 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 4: truly hope that that person is out there and that 636 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 4: they will reach out and come forward with any information 637 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 4: that they might have about the hard and murders. There 638 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 4: is a man's life on the line, an innocent man, 639 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 4: and if people have information, I truly truly hope that 640 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 4: they'll come forward with it and allow it to be 641 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 4: raised and brought before the court. 642 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: And now over to you, Tyron. 643 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 2: Well, I would like to first thank you and again, 644 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 2: I think the most important thing here is a voice. 645 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 3: I'm an innocent person on Ohio's death brow and I 646 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 3: don't belong here, and I need help. Now's the time. 647 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 3: This is difficult. 648 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 2: It's difficult cleaning for your life, especially when you haven't 649 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 2: been heard for a long time. 650 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 3: So I would just like to thank everybody. 651 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 2: And to encourage him again to look into my case, 652 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 2: to get involved, to be a voice for me, and 653 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 2: to help me get out of here because I'm innocent. 654 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 3: I don't want to be here, So please. 655 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 656 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Kleibern, 657 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wartis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music 658 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated 659 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 660 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and 661 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava 662 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, You can also follow 663 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flamm. 664 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcast 665 00:36:50,440 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: and association with signal Company number one