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Speaker 1: Pushing. I'm so happy I get to finally proclaim that

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Speaker 1: I'm a nerd. Right, I don't gotta fake like I

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Speaker 1: like football anymore. For my friends and all that that was,

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Speaker 1: I've had to live like this double life forever, like

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Speaker 1: I was cooler than I was, so I would be

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Speaker 1: sitting at the super Bowl while everybody's cheering, and I

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Speaker 1: would be in my phone life researcher Who Charles Whacker is?

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Speaker 1: Because all day long I've been trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: why they call it Whacker Drive Right, I'm Khalil Jibrad

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Speaker 1: Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black,

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Speaker 1: one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And

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Speaker 1: this is some of my best friends are. Some of

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Speaker 1: my best friends are dot dot dot. In this show,

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Speaker 1: we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a

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Speaker 1: deeply divided and unequal country. And this week, the nation's

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Speaker 1: leading urban historian, on TikTok is joining us. Sherman Gilla

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Speaker 1: Thomas joins our conversation. His tagline is everything Dope comes

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Speaker 1: from Chicago. We talk about what it means to be

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Speaker 1: a booster for our hometown, a complicated place with a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of history. Only I am really excited this

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Speaker 1: week about the conversation we're going to have with Sherman

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Speaker 1: Della Thomas. Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, you and I

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Speaker 1: are constantly talking about this balance between like like stories

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Speaker 1: of tragedy and challenge and also like how do we

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Speaker 1: celebrate the good things that are happening? Yeah? Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is so central to everything we do and like even

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Speaker 1: even probably how we live of like you know, delving

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Speaker 1: into the really complicated histories of place. Yeah, I have

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Speaker 1: to live with having written a book Condemnation of Blackness,

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Speaker 1: which people are like, oh, that sounds that sounds really positive.

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Speaker 1: It's not the celebration of blackness, but in many ways,

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Speaker 1: like you need both, right, Yeah, I mean so even

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Speaker 1: if thinking about this of you know, what it means

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Speaker 1: to celebrate a place, what it means to be a

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Speaker 1: booster something is gained and also something is lost. But

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Speaker 1: here we have this guy on the show, Sherman Dilla Thomas,

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Speaker 1: who might be one of the most positive people about

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Speaker 1: Chicago I've ever come across in my entire life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you met him. I don't even know

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Speaker 1: how how did you meet this guy. Man. I started

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Speaker 1: seeing his videos all over the place, you know, and

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Speaker 1: here he is like wearing white Sox gear or Bulls gear.

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Speaker 1: He's like holding his microphone to his mouth, and he

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Speaker 1: is just like spitting knowledge about Chicago. Like the first

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Speaker 1: black NFL quarterback Hall of Famer coming from Chicago. Did

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Speaker 1: I get that right? Yeah? Fritz Pollard. Fritz Pollard, you know.

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Speaker 1: And he actually reached out to me because he did

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Speaker 1: an episode about Cabrini Green and I wrote this book

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Speaker 1: High Riser was about Cabrini Green, and so we met

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Speaker 1: that way. And you know, he did this whole episode

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Speaker 1: about public housing in Chicago. Yeah. It's like I've seen

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Speaker 1: these in learning so much from them, and then they

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Speaker 1: blew up. They're all over the place. They're viral. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he has reportedly over four million views counting just from

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Speaker 1: last year. I mean, who knows how many more now.

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Speaker 1: And he's also started a bus company to take people

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Speaker 1: on actual tours of the city, Mahogany Tours. This is

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Speaker 1: a really incredible use of history, right, I mean, so

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Speaker 1: you're a historian, and this is history that is somehow

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Speaker 1: being lived and experienced outside of books. Even it's traveling

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Speaker 1: all over the place, and he's on the news here,

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Speaker 1: he's on television. He becomes a kind of ambassador for Chicago. Yeah, man,

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to get to know this guy too,

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Speaker 1: because as a historian, it's not often the case that

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Speaker 1: one I learned things I didn't know about my own city,

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Speaker 1: and two that you get to use history in a

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Speaker 1: way that is empowering to people who live in a

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Speaker 1: city to think about their connection to folks who've come

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Speaker 1: before them and use that as a kind of inspiration

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Speaker 1: to say, hey, you know, I should be proud walking

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Speaker 1: there because other people have done amazing things who've come

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Speaker 1: before me. Yeah. Yeah, And for me, I want to know, like,

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Speaker 1: can you both extol a place and also tell about

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Speaker 1: its really complicated, difficult parts at the same time. So

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Speaker 1: let's hear from Dillah. Let's go talk to them, all right,

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Speaker 1: Sherman Dillah Thomas, welcome to some of my best friends.

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Speaker 1: Are Yes, thank you, thank you, brother Ben for having me.

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Speaker 1: Brother Muhammad truly alan to be here. Oh man, man,

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Speaker 1: I mean you we're Chicagoans, and we're Southsiders, and you

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Speaker 1: are Chicago's favorite urban historian. That's right, the man, the

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Speaker 1: myth legend. We are super excited about this, and this

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Speaker 1: is the first time in the history if some of

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Speaker 1: my best friends are we have both been referred to

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Speaker 1: as brother. I mean, I'm used to brother Muhammad. I

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Speaker 1: mean that, you know, that kind of goes with territory.

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Speaker 1: But we didn't get a twofer until now. We're so

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Speaker 1: excited to talk with you. You are the TikTok history

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Speaker 1: lessons King. It's amazing what you're doing. Before we get

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Speaker 1: to that, though, you go by the name Dillah, Right,

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Speaker 1: what's that about? My mother was calling me serm dealer

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Speaker 1: like d E A L e R. Got it. She

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Speaker 1: used to say that. I reminded her the used car

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Speaker 1: dealers on Western knew I could get right. I could

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Speaker 1: get her to buy any any jump ever, and we

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Speaker 1: all knew better. Western Avenue is a street in Chicago

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Speaker 1: where as soon as you get fifteen hundred dollars as

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Speaker 1: of kids, you go there to buy your used car

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Speaker 1: and it's gonna break as soon as you get home.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's car does, but we do it anyway. And so

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Speaker 1: that was that like her thing for me, and the

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Speaker 1: kid's heard scherm dealer and just start calling me Dilla, right,

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Speaker 1: you know. So that's so that's where that comes from, Della.

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Speaker 1: I love it. So I know Ben knows you a

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Speaker 1: little better than I do. So when did you get started, Dila?

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Speaker 1: And I know your your daughter was inspiration, but just

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Speaker 1: for my purposes, tell me, tell me exactly when you

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Speaker 1: got started. I got started right out of November of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty. Okay. We were all in the house, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then stuck in the house with pandemic. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're all on lockdown. And my daughter wanted to do

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Speaker 1: TikTok's and the family told her, no, what's up with that?

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Speaker 1: That's me. She was eight, right, and they thought that

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Speaker 1: eight was a little too young to be on an

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Speaker 1: app by yourself. So I later like just downloaded on

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Speaker 1: my phone and you know, and anybody looking TikTok a

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Speaker 1: little heart out right and um and then but also

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Speaker 1: I kind of figured i'd be a good way for

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Speaker 1: me to just see what she's engaging in, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: And so we did that. First she wanted to watch,

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Speaker 1: then she wanted to dance, and because you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: not the best dancer, we were doing like those little

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Speaker 1: daddy daughter challenges. Of course I did one myself, the

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Speaker 1: same thing, covid times a little little Daddy Daughter mix

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Speaker 1: mixtape on TikTok. Yeah, you know, just bonding with the kids.

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Speaker 1: And what happened was we did one of her friend

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Speaker 1: did the same. One of her friend got like two

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Speaker 1: thousand views and we got like sixty. You suck. This

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Speaker 1: is all you. You can't oh man, Like oh not

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Speaker 1: just that, but like she she took like a self

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Speaker 1: esteem wall, like why why her over me? And just

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Speaker 1: so many things. Right, So I was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I know Chicago history, baby, let me let me feed

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Speaker 1: you some lines. That has to be the corniest intervention

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Speaker 1: I've ever heard in my life. Let me do history

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Speaker 1: on your TikTok. That is gonna blow your spot up, baby.

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Speaker 1: I think the first one I did was like maybe

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Speaker 1: telling how Chicago created the time zones for the country. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we gotta hear that. Let's play that clip. Do you

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Speaker 1: ever wonder why California's two hours behind Chicago or New

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Speaker 1: York to an hour ahead? Well, it's because right here

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Speaker 1: in Chicago we set up the time zones for the country.

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Speaker 1: And it got more views than the lad than what

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Speaker 1: her and I did, and then so she said, do

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Speaker 1: another one and let me stand next to you. Right,

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Speaker 1: She just wanted to stand there, and then we did,

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Speaker 1: and then that one get views and then you just

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Speaker 1: started rolling. I just started rolling. You know, have you

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Speaker 1: always been a history buff? Did you always study? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what I was thinking, Ben, good question. I was

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Speaker 1: thinking the exact same thing. I've always been in history buff.

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Speaker 1: I didn't study history. My dad was a Chicago policeman

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Speaker 1: for thirty two years and he got hired on October

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine. So that's the pedigree I come from.

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Speaker 1: And you know, they talk history in squire cards. They

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Speaker 1: talk history amongst each other, and then they took their

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Speaker 1: kids to work with them, right, Yeah, Can I ask

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Speaker 1: you one question? Though? They'll about about your dad and

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Speaker 1: going and going up to work with them, because I

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Speaker 1: never really thought about a kid going to work with

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Speaker 1: their father who's a police officer. I used to go

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Speaker 1: to work with my pops, who was a photojournalist for

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Speaker 1: a newspaper. But I was just loading cameras. Were you

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Speaker 1: putting like little bullets in the revolver to make sure

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Speaker 1: Pops was all ready to go, locked and loaded? No,

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Speaker 1: I'm not quite, you know, really just sit down, shut

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Speaker 1: up and listen. Just a lot of that was just

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Speaker 1: security detail, because I know part of what it's in

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Speaker 1: your bio is pretty spectacular. Just that your father actually

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Speaker 1: worked as security detail with Harold Washington, right, who was

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Speaker 1: Chicago's first black mayor elected in nineteen eighty three. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he worked at security detail. He worked here mostly US detail.

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Speaker 1: He worked about Russia's detail. You know that. That's what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying that particular time frame, right as black politicians

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Speaker 1: are making this you know, surge, they are picking their

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Speaker 1: own to protect them. Chicago was unique that it had

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Speaker 1: started off as an Afro American Patrolman's league. Now they

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Speaker 1: called the African American Police League, but it was like

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Speaker 1: a union inside of the union. It's the reason why

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Speaker 1: they're black sergeists, is the reason why they're black firefighters. Right.

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Speaker 1: They sued the city and got that famous injunction to

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Speaker 1: change the entry exams for both fire and police department

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Speaker 1: as as the sergeant exams. Right, you're giving us a

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Speaker 1: TikTok history lesson about the Afroma. That's just like it's

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Speaker 1: coming out of your pores. It started off as an

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Speaker 1: Afro American Patrolman's League, and what it was. It was

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Speaker 1: a star about Renaut Robinson, Howard Sappho, And what it

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Speaker 1: was was, I'll give you an example, Right, a white

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Speaker 1: cop could wear a cross to work because it's considered

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Speaker 1: a religious symbol. And during the nineteen sixties, the black

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Speaker 1: power movement was coming into effect, right, going into the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, Right, we're Afros, we were proud, and so

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Speaker 1: black officers would want to wear an unc, which is

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Speaker 1: also considered a religious signal, especially Egyptian religious comedic religions, right,

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Speaker 1: but comic meaning Egyptian related, Right, I mean it's it's

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Speaker 1: spelled on a n k H. It's a type of

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Speaker 1: cross that we would wear like a necklace, right, meaning

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Speaker 1: Egyptian related. Absolutely, And black officers would get suspended for

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Speaker 1: wearing their aunts, but white officers would not get suspended

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Speaker 1: for wearing their crosses, right uh. And so those are

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Speaker 1: the things that activated the Afros founded as the Afro

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Speaker 1: American Police League to fight back. Like I said, you

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Speaker 1: could see your brother being harassed by white cops. You're

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Speaker 1: a cop, your brother in blue, your brother, your blood brother,

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Speaker 1: and so you can see your bin, you can see

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Speaker 1: your brother getting harrass your black dude. You see your

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Speaker 1: brother getting her ass back. Cops, you pull up, Hey, guys,

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Speaker 1: I'm a cop. Show your badge. Right, that cop would

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Speaker 1: get suspended all the time for interfering with police issues, right,

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Speaker 1: the black cop who was interceding on behalf of somebody

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Speaker 1: being harassed by a white cop all the time. So

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Speaker 1: that's what started it. That's what that league was founded for. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's an amazing I mean even telling that story because

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Speaker 1: you're celebrating this organization and the leaders and even the

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Speaker 1: work that your father did working in it, and the

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Speaker 1: very reason for its founding is that cops needed to

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Speaker 1: fight racism and oppression and corruption within their own ranks.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to just say, just as a matter of

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Speaker 1: like political history, you mentioned Senator Carol Moseley Braun, who

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Speaker 1: is the first black female senator in the history of

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Speaker 1: the nation, and she's only the second black senator at

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Speaker 1: any point after the reconstruction period. And here's a clip

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Speaker 1: of Carol Moseley Braun from her nineteen ninety two run

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Speaker 1: for senator. All over the state feeling about this candidacy

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Speaker 1: is electric, and it's electric precisely because people know that

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Speaker 1: we make that this is a watershed election and that

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Speaker 1: it's time for a change. It's time for change in Illinois,

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Speaker 1: it's time for change in this country. I say that

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Speaker 1: to say that, like, that's a really big political moment

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Speaker 1: for you to be like as a kid on the

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Speaker 1: lap of your father who's directly connected to these people,

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Speaker 1: that that, for my purposes, that makes you an eyewitness

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Speaker 1: to history. I'll rock your your educational brain even more. Right.

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Speaker 1: I think the reason why they let me stay in

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Speaker 1: the room because when she was making I remember it

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Speaker 1: like it was yesterday. We were at Sherman Park. This

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Speaker 1: was like July doing that one of those votes for

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Speaker 1: me campaign things, right, yeah, on the south side, yes, sir.

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Speaker 1: And so she had like a campaign riley thing at

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Speaker 1: Sherman Park and she was sitting in the front. My

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Speaker 1: dad was driving another car. Cop was sitting next to me.

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Speaker 1: And this was the Peewee Little League Championship. And I

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Speaker 1: chose to go my dad and play in the Peewee

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Speaker 1: Little League Championship. But I remember the conversation she said,

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Speaker 1: you know, they were like, can you believe you're getting

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Speaker 1: ready to be the first woman ever, first black woman ever?

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Speaker 1: US Senator and then the same thing you said. They

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Speaker 1: mentioned reconstruction, and then she said, well, that's the Chicago thing.

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Speaker 1: The priest was first to go to Congress since reconstruction too, right,

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Speaker 1: And I'm you know, ten to eleven or something like that,

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Speaker 1: but I couldn't wait to use it the next time

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Speaker 1: I was around my dad people. Yeah, so that's that's

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Speaker 1: a really strong impression, both in terms of like seeing

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Speaker 1: this person who you know, is larger than life in

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Speaker 1: terms of her political achievements, and at the same time,

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Speaker 1: like getting these history lessons from this same person. That's

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Speaker 1: pretty incredible. I don't think right now, I'm probably like

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Speaker 1: that is a Dopus hill, right. You just feel like

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Speaker 1: I didn't have all those thoughts there. That was I

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Speaker 1: promised I did not, even most recently, right, Like I

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Speaker 1: just wanted to be around my podcast, you know. That

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Speaker 1: was that was because he was a cop. He wasn't

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Speaker 1: really home a lot, especially young ages. You know, I

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Speaker 1: don't remember him at all six seven, eight years old.

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Speaker 1: I remember one time he got shot and I celebrated

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Speaker 1: because I was like, he for sure, that's the way

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Speaker 1: to get them some quality time. Man, he would like

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Speaker 1: to work the next day Yeah, he got shot in

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Speaker 1: his hand and they wrapped sold it up whatever, and

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Speaker 1: he went back the next I was so pissed off.

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Speaker 1: It must not have been a shooting hand though. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's hilarious. Okay, so we're gonna take a quick break.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll dig into more Chicago history

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Speaker 1: stories from Della. All Right, we are back talking to

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Speaker 1: Sherman Della Thomas, the Chicago booster and oral historian. So, Dillah,

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Speaker 1: one of your tag lines is everything dope comes from Chicago.

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Speaker 1: You're like one of Chicago's biggest boosters. You celebrate this city.

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Speaker 1: And maybe, just like you know, tell us something dope

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Speaker 1: that came from Chicago that would surprise us. Give us

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Speaker 1: one of these little history lessons. The Fireman's pole, I

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Speaker 1: think surprises most people. The Fireman's pole, like its use

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Speaker 1: is sliding down. The pole comes from Chicago. It's about

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Speaker 1: eighteen seventy four, is eighteen seventy five and coming out

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Speaker 1: of reconstruction in Chicago has created and all black fire

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Speaker 1: engine is Engine twenty one the land by a white captain,

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Speaker 1: but it's you know, twelve fourteen brothers that fight fires

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Speaker 1: in its growing black neighborhoods right that Chicago is starting

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Speaker 1: a half. We've ever been in the fire station, you'll

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Speaker 1: notice that it has spiral stairs, and every fire station

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Speaker 1: in the world has spiral stairs. And next to it

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Speaker 1: is where the pole is. The reason why the stairs

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Speaker 1: of spirals because we used to fight fires with horses.

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Speaker 1: The horses used to walk up the stairs and eat

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Speaker 1: all the hay, and then you be looking for the

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Speaker 1: horse and he up that sleep, right, So they created

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Speaker 1: the spiral stairs so the horse couldn't get up there.

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Speaker 1: And the next two it was they had the pole

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Speaker 1: for the hay loft, right, so the hay is kept

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Speaker 1: up in the third floor because typically that's the highest place, right,

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Speaker 1: Hey needs to be dry, so you keep it up

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Speaker 1: high in the third floor and hay lofts right. And

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Speaker 1: then it was held in place with a pole. And

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Speaker 1: then because we lazy humans, right when the horse needed hey,

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Speaker 1: you kicked the pole out the way and hey drops

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Speaker 1: down now where you ain't got to go all the

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Speaker 1: way up to the third floor. So it wasn't for

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Speaker 1: firemen sliding down it, not at all. It was just

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Speaker 1: a letter. But you know who we don't talk about

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Speaker 1: enough in Chicago is the captain that like the sad

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Speaker 1: of his name is Captain Coolly Duan. He was a

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Speaker 1: hero of the Chicago fire in eighteen seventy one and

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Speaker 1: when he's seen the black guys slid down that hay pole,

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Speaker 1: he's the guy that was like, yeah, that's gans go

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Speaker 1: ahead and send it, so y'all don't get splinters. And

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Speaker 1: this is how we will respond from here on out. So, Dylan,

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Speaker 1: I'm listening to you, and like, you know, Khalil and

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Speaker 1: I or both, you know, we both write books, we

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Speaker 1: both do tons of research. We both write about Chicago,

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Speaker 1: Like how do you get all this information? Like how

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Speaker 1: were you? What kind of research do you do? And

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Speaker 1: also like damn man, like you got this all off

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Speaker 1: the Dome's what's up? Like you remember all this? Jay

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Speaker 1: Z ruined my life? So let's start there. I remember

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Speaker 1: that that famous interview he did where he was like,

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Speaker 1: I don't write, and it was like what And he

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, I just say my rhymes and

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Speaker 1: myself over and over and by the time I get

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Speaker 1: back to the house, I don't need to write them

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Speaker 1: down right, it becomes an exercise. I went to Eastern

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Speaker 1: Illinois University major in English and African American studies and

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Speaker 1: probably wrote three papers because I would always say, let

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Speaker 1: me give it to you orally. Right. So when when

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Speaker 1: people read say like your book High Rises, right, like,

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Speaker 1: oh oh man, good look at it. Yeah, I jacked

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Speaker 1: so much stuff out of that book, then better than that,

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Speaker 1: I immediately want to read the stuff that you sourced

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Speaker 1: from right right, you know, and though those are the

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Speaker 1: cheats that I think people people forget about, right, we

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Speaker 1: want to run in Wikipedia and other online sources. A

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Speaker 1: lot of that stuff ain't online, and that in that

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Speaker 1: in that way, right, you gotta like dogging. So you're

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Speaker 1: just you're reading all the time and going to the

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Speaker 1: library and picking up books. I mean you're like just

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Speaker 1: he's reading footnotes. Man, that's more than just reading. That's footnotes. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy I get to finally proclaim that I'm

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Speaker 1: a nerd. Right, I don't gotta think like I like

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Speaker 1: football anymore. For my friends and all that that was,

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Speaker 1: I've had to live like this double life forever. Like

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Speaker 1: I was way cooler than I was. So I would

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Speaker 1: be sitting at the super Bowl while everybody's cheering, and

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Speaker 1: I would be on my phone, like researching who Charles

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Speaker 1: Whacker is, because all day long I've been trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out why they call it Whacker Drive. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: like researching is my pastime, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: Like I allow an idea to formulate, or I fixate

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Speaker 1: on something and then you know, I'm researching on that thing,

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Speaker 1: and then out of that you get so many you know,

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Speaker 1: bread crumbs and those type of things. So that's just

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Speaker 1: how I passed the time. I mentioned my book High Risers,

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Speaker 1: which is about Cabrini Green, a public housing complex sens

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Speaker 1: in Chicago, and I think I wrote it for a

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Speaker 1: lot of the reasons you're talking about. What you do

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Speaker 1: is that this was a place that was demonized because

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Speaker 1: of its poverty and also violence. And you did a

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Speaker 1: TikTok related to my book. Let's press the TikTok machine

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Speaker 1: and listen to it. Pretty impossible to discuss the history

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Speaker 1: of Cabrini Green in sixty seconds. I'm going to give

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Speaker 1: it a try. And that the stories there were much

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Speaker 1: more complex and many many lives that needed to be

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Speaker 1: you know, and many stories that needed to be told

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Speaker 1: that weren't being covered. But you did do a TikTok

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Speaker 1: about Cabrini Green, and when you posted it and mentioned

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Speaker 1: my book, you said I owed you a hot dog. Yeah, yeah, right.

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Speaker 1: I gotta believe the one I got to receist because

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Speaker 1: at least a dozen people. I didn't just post your book,

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Speaker 1: I said, buy this book. Man, that is great. We

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Speaker 1: got to hear that clip. Despite it, all the residents

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Speaker 1: of Gabrini Green had a great sense of community by

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Speaker 1: this book. I think the TikTok with the first posting

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Speaker 1: got like maybe one hundred thirty thousand views. How much

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Speaker 1: you're paying for a commercial for one hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: thousand people. So I'll get you a hot dog if

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Speaker 1: you could, If you could tell us what is the

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Speaker 1: history of the Chicago style hot dog? You know, no

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Speaker 1: one knows that it's such a wives tell sort of thing, right,

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Speaker 1: the no catchup. The best that I can find is

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Speaker 1: that there are already so many ingredients on it that

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Speaker 1: you don't you don't need to catch up, right, I

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Speaker 1: tell you the origin of like Italian beef. I love

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Speaker 1: telling that story. Bring it, Come on with that story.

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Speaker 1: So you know, two of the most iconic Chicago foods

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Speaker 1: are the hot dog and then of course Italian beef

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Speaker 1: because you know that deep dish pizza. I'm not really

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Speaker 1: into that. Italian beef comes from how we used to

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Speaker 1: Italian grannies give us Italian beefs. Right. The Italians were

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Speaker 1: like the last arriving immigrants to Chicago at that moment,

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Speaker 1: and when they used to walk into the butcher, that

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Speaker 1: was discriminated again. So you know, if you're a Yankee Protestant, right,

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Speaker 1: they would sell you the surloin of the t bone.

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Speaker 1: But you were dark and complected Irish lady, I mean

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Speaker 1: Italian lady, you had to buy the rump ros, right,

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Speaker 1: that's what they would sell to you. So the cow,

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Speaker 1: the chitlands of the cow, right, And that's not a

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Speaker 1: very tender cut of meat. Yeah, that's not a great

404
00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:25,836
Speaker 1: advertise in the first Italian beach, it's not at all right,

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Speaker 1: but this is what but see, that's the beauty about Chicago.

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Speaker 1: Out of discrimination comes amazing shit. Right, Because she was

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Speaker 1: discriminating in the butchers, what did she do? She's like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I ain't gonna worry about it. I'm gonna put it

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Speaker 1: in a slow cooker and when my husband leaves out

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Speaker 1: for work, I'll turn it on and by the time

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Speaker 1: he gets from work, I'll turn it off. And anything

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Speaker 1: you cook for fucking eight hours is going to be

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Speaker 1: the most tender thing, right, And what's the cheat? The

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Speaker 1: cheat is the bread. And it don't take anything, especially

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Speaker 1: if you're making homemade bread. Right, little flower, little doe,

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Speaker 1: a little whatever, right, you make amazing bread. She took that.

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Speaker 1: Then eight hour cut roast the rump right and thinly

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Speaker 1: sliced it and fair. The kids say a little bit

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Speaker 1: for his lunch, right, And then every day more and

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Speaker 1: more people are like, throw they lunch away and start

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Speaker 1: asking Broth for some of his sandwiches because they was

422
00:22:09,756 --> 00:22:12,636
Speaker 1: really really juicy and tender because they cooked all day.

423
00:22:12,876 --> 00:22:15,796
Speaker 1: And he started selling so many of his lunch sandwiches

424
00:22:15,836 --> 00:22:18,196
Speaker 1: he quit his job. And you know, Al's beef right,

425
00:22:18,276 --> 00:22:20,916
Speaker 1: Like damn man, if you got to be careful asking

426
00:22:20,916 --> 00:22:23,436
Speaker 1: you a question, it is like it opens one door

427
00:22:23,476 --> 00:22:27,116
Speaker 1: and then another and then another. You just like, go ahead, Khalil, Well,

428
00:22:27,156 --> 00:22:31,396
Speaker 1: I'm curious, So do you have any inspirations role models

429
00:22:31,476 --> 00:22:35,676
Speaker 1: people who you have now begun to model yourself, now

430
00:22:35,676 --> 00:22:39,396
Speaker 1: that you've become basically the most famous Chicago historian. I mean,

431
00:22:39,556 --> 00:22:42,916
Speaker 1: at this point you own that title. Thank you. Send

432
00:22:42,996 --> 00:22:45,516
Speaker 1: this clip to the city so that they can make

433
00:22:45,556 --> 00:22:49,716
Speaker 1: me the official culture historian. I'm definitely chasing the legacy

434
00:22:49,716 --> 00:22:53,196
Speaker 1: of Tamil Black. There we go. Yeah, wow, Tamil Black.

435
00:22:53,276 --> 00:22:56,116
Speaker 1: Let me just say so. He died one year ago

436
00:22:56,636 --> 00:22:59,196
Speaker 1: at age one hundred and two, and he was I'd

437
00:22:59,196 --> 00:23:03,596
Speaker 1: say Chicago's greatest historian and lived Chicago history, you know,

438
00:23:03,876 --> 00:23:07,436
Speaker 1: moving here from the South, being a civil rights leader,

439
00:23:07,516 --> 00:23:10,956
Speaker 1: schooling Barack Obama. You know you are living his legacy.

440
00:23:11,036 --> 00:23:13,476
Speaker 1: Tell us more about him. He moved to Chicago a

441
00:23:13,516 --> 00:23:16,036
Speaker 1: couple of months after the race riot in nineteen nineteen.

442
00:23:16,076 --> 00:23:19,316
Speaker 1: He was an infant. He's a gentleman that invited Doctor

443
00:23:19,396 --> 00:23:22,236
Speaker 1: King speaked in Chicago for the first time, right because

444
00:23:22,236 --> 00:23:25,716
Speaker 1: he was already a civil rights activist, right, Yeah, absolutely,

445
00:23:25,836 --> 00:23:29,916
Speaker 1: He's a World War two veteran. He was at DuSable

446
00:23:30,116 --> 00:23:35,916
Speaker 1: with Red Fox, nattem Co, Dinah Washington, Harold Washable as

447
00:23:35,916 --> 00:23:38,196
Speaker 1: a high school here on the South Side, Second Black

448
00:23:38,276 --> 00:23:41,396
Speaker 1: High School, second high school constructive for African Americans in

449
00:23:41,436 --> 00:23:43,476
Speaker 1: the city's history on the South Side. Man, I love

450
00:23:43,516 --> 00:23:45,876
Speaker 1: all that I love. Tamio Black is amazing. I had

451
00:23:45,916 --> 00:23:48,756
Speaker 1: the great honor of interviewing him a couple of times.

452
00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:52,716
Speaker 1: You know, he is a Chicago booster, and you know,

453
00:23:52,796 --> 00:23:55,116
Speaker 1: so are you. And I want to talk more about

454
00:23:55,156 --> 00:23:58,156
Speaker 1: this idea of what it means to be so positive

455
00:23:58,196 --> 00:24:00,956
Speaker 1: about the city. Was so positive about Chicago, because this

456
00:24:01,036 --> 00:24:03,396
Speaker 1: is something this is something I actually think about all

457
00:24:03,436 --> 00:24:06,516
Speaker 1: the time. Della and Khalil. You don't only think about it,

458
00:24:06,676 --> 00:24:10,516
Speaker 1: You really obsess over this question because so much of

459
00:24:10,636 --> 00:24:14,356
Speaker 1: your work is about pushing back against stereotypes. I'm talking

460
00:24:14,356 --> 00:24:17,036
Speaker 1: to you Ben about like the crime and the violence

461
00:24:17,076 --> 00:24:19,676
Speaker 1: and all of that. Yeah, and at the same time, right, so,

462
00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:23,036
Speaker 1: I'm writing about criminal justice issues, I'm writing about poverty

463
00:24:23,036 --> 00:24:25,996
Speaker 1: and segregation in Chicago. I'm writing about what the reality

464
00:24:25,996 --> 00:24:29,916
Speaker 1: of Chicago. And it's also like we're getting all these

465
00:24:29,916 --> 00:24:33,876
Speaker 1: messages about Chicago which are or extreme, you know, whether

466
00:24:33,956 --> 00:24:36,876
Speaker 1: it's like this hell hole or whether it's you know, Iraq,

467
00:24:37,996 --> 00:24:41,276
Speaker 1: when that movie came out, you were so pissed. Those

468
00:24:41,276 --> 00:24:44,716
Speaker 1: are just abstractions. It's like just just the worst stuff

469
00:24:44,956 --> 00:24:49,796
Speaker 1: exists in isolation without anything else. But the bad stuff

470
00:24:49,796 --> 00:24:52,676
Speaker 1: really is there too, like and so so the struggle

471
00:24:52,796 --> 00:24:56,796
Speaker 1: is like to address these real issues because it's important

472
00:24:56,796 --> 00:24:59,076
Speaker 1: to grapple with them, to wrestle with them, because otherwise

473
00:24:59,116 --> 00:25:01,796
Speaker 1: we can't we can't change them. How do we do both?

474
00:25:01,996 --> 00:25:05,436
Speaker 1: The example I use when I get asked this particular

475
00:25:05,476 --> 00:25:07,196
Speaker 1: type of question, I really feel like I'm preaching to

476
00:25:07,196 --> 00:25:09,836
Speaker 1: the choired, especially talking to you, brother, being is like,

477
00:25:10,676 --> 00:25:13,076
Speaker 1: my daughter has asthma. We probably on our way to

478
00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:15,716
Speaker 1: like go get a breathing treatment tomorrow, the way that

479
00:25:15,756 --> 00:25:19,556
Speaker 1: her asthma is going to date, right, thank you, brother,

480
00:25:19,876 --> 00:25:23,476
Speaker 1: So I understand wanting to deal with the symptoms that

481
00:25:23,516 --> 00:25:25,596
Speaker 1: are in front of me right now, right when she

482
00:25:25,636 --> 00:25:28,156
Speaker 1: gets the coffin she has a running nose. I want

483
00:25:28,156 --> 00:25:30,396
Speaker 1: to give her a house. I wanted to blow a nose.

484
00:25:30,436 --> 00:25:32,836
Speaker 1: I want to get to dehumidified in her room. Right.

485
00:25:33,156 --> 00:25:35,956
Speaker 1: But you know, if that's all I ever do each

486
00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:38,676
Speaker 1: time she gets sick, she's gonna keep getting sick every

487
00:25:38,716 --> 00:25:40,116
Speaker 1: now and again. I got to go in the basement

488
00:25:40,116 --> 00:25:42,556
Speaker 1: and check the filters, right, I gotta see what's blowing

489
00:25:42,676 --> 00:25:45,916
Speaker 1: through this house that's making her sick. Beyond that, right,

490
00:25:45,956 --> 00:25:47,716
Speaker 1: I might have to get a plumber in because her

491
00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:50,316
Speaker 1: room is by the bathroom to check the wet wall

492
00:25:50,356 --> 00:25:53,076
Speaker 1: and see, right, if there's mold behind the walls that

493
00:25:53,196 --> 00:25:55,556
Speaker 1: we can't see. What's my long winded point When we

494
00:25:55,596 --> 00:25:58,116
Speaker 1: talk about the people that got shot and the people

495
00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:00,476
Speaker 1: that got killed, I'm I hate that they got killed.

496
00:26:00,476 --> 00:26:02,196
Speaker 1: I hate that they got shot. I think that that

497
00:26:02,276 --> 00:26:05,876
Speaker 1: needs attention. But like that's where the stat starts and stops, right,

498
00:26:06,036 --> 00:26:08,796
Speaker 1: and we don't mention that the three people that got

499
00:26:08,876 --> 00:26:13,996
Speaker 1: killed are involved in the STL versus Old Block war

500
00:26:14,156 --> 00:26:17,996
Speaker 1: that started because Ram Emmanuel closed fifty schools and so

501
00:26:18,156 --> 00:26:21,076
Speaker 1: three kids had to cross Kane Drive where formerly those

502
00:26:21,156 --> 00:26:23,516
Speaker 1: kids never cross Kane Drive to go to school. Then

503
00:26:23,556 --> 00:26:25,276
Speaker 1: one of them got you know what I mean, like

504
00:26:25,556 --> 00:26:27,996
Speaker 1: spell that shit all the way out right, and then

505
00:26:28,036 --> 00:26:31,036
Speaker 1: talk about how it always always always goes back to

506
00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:34,356
Speaker 1: some kind of systemic bullshit. You know what. We usually

507
00:26:34,356 --> 00:26:37,596
Speaker 1: call it structural racism, but I like just systemic bullshit better.

508
00:26:37,956 --> 00:26:40,236
Speaker 1: That is from the heroin out ben rest of the seasons,

509
00:26:40,236 --> 00:26:59,316
Speaker 1: just systemic bullshit. We are back on. Some of my

510
00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:03,196
Speaker 1: best friends are with Sherman Della Thomas. It seems to

511
00:27:03,236 --> 00:27:06,036
Speaker 1: me what you're saying is that the structural bullshit has

512
00:27:06,076 --> 00:27:09,476
Speaker 1: to be addressed also by how people see themselves in

513
00:27:09,556 --> 00:27:12,836
Speaker 1: the history of the place they live in, that all

514
00:27:12,836 --> 00:27:16,756
Speaker 1: these stories you're telling are a way of empowering young people,

515
00:27:16,876 --> 00:27:20,476
Speaker 1: especially that you should have pride of place, that a

516
00:27:20,476 --> 00:27:22,556
Speaker 1: lot of people did a lot of wonderful things here,

517
00:27:22,636 --> 00:27:24,876
Speaker 1: and people have been fighting for justice here. You don't

518
00:27:24,916 --> 00:27:28,196
Speaker 1: have to do this alone. You have this this inspiration,

519
00:27:28,676 --> 00:27:30,996
Speaker 1: and I'm going to tell you these stories. And guess what,

520
00:27:31,076 --> 00:27:32,756
Speaker 1: it's not just a couple of stories. And it's not

521
00:27:32,756 --> 00:27:35,236
Speaker 1: just black history, mother man. It is fucking TikTok. Every

522
00:27:35,316 --> 00:27:38,116
Speaker 1: day I get that right, every day? You know, they go,

523
00:27:38,236 --> 00:27:41,316
Speaker 1: these kids to go to Irvin Mollison Elementary which is

524
00:27:41,356 --> 00:27:43,876
Speaker 1: on forty fifth and King Drive on the south side

525
00:27:43,916 --> 00:27:45,796
Speaker 1: of Chicago. Whenever I come across the kid to go

526
00:27:45,836 --> 00:27:48,436
Speaker 1: to Mollison, I asked them who is Irvin Mollison? They

527
00:27:48,436 --> 00:27:50,916
Speaker 1: can never tell me. But then I say, have you

528
00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:53,876
Speaker 1: ever read A Raisin in the Sun? Right? And they say, oh, yeah,

529
00:27:53,956 --> 00:27:56,756
Speaker 1: right with Lorraine Hansbury. Okay, Well, it was Earl Dickerson

530
00:27:56,756 --> 00:27:59,476
Speaker 1: and Irvin Mollison that were his lawyers that took that

531
00:27:59,596 --> 00:28:02,596
Speaker 1: case to the Supreme Court that opened up woodline right

532
00:28:02,636 --> 00:28:06,316
Speaker 1: that it allowed for that eventually emman Till's mom and

533
00:28:06,396 --> 00:28:09,756
Speaker 1: everybody else starts to move into into Woodline. It's because

534
00:28:09,796 --> 00:28:13,396
Speaker 1: of Irvan Morlinson Earl B. Dickerson. Wow, there's so much

535
00:28:13,436 --> 00:28:15,396
Speaker 1: history you've packed in there. I mean, this is why

536
00:28:15,436 --> 00:28:19,236
Speaker 1: you're so amazing. You know, everyone, including my own kids,

537
00:28:19,236 --> 00:28:22,756
Speaker 1: have read Lorraine Hansberry's classic work, A Raising in the Sun.

538
00:28:22,836 --> 00:28:24,636
Speaker 1: And if people haven't read it, they might have seen

539
00:28:24,676 --> 00:28:29,276
Speaker 1: the movie starring Sydney Potier. And to know that the

540
00:28:29,396 --> 00:28:32,756
Speaker 1: people who were responsible for helping that black family, her

541
00:28:32,876 --> 00:28:36,836
Speaker 1: black family move into Woodlawn and to help ultimately to

542
00:28:36,876 --> 00:28:39,796
Speaker 1: bring down restrictive covenants, one of the main ways in

543
00:28:39,836 --> 00:28:43,956
Speaker 1: which black people were segregated all across the country, including

544
00:28:43,996 --> 00:28:47,556
Speaker 1: places like Chicago. That's a lot of important history you're

545
00:28:47,556 --> 00:28:49,916
Speaker 1: talking about. Man, Why aren't the people that go you

546
00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:51,516
Speaker 1: should as soon as you walk into Irvan Morleson, it

547
00:28:51,556 --> 00:28:53,236
Speaker 1: should be a sign. You should have to read it

548
00:28:53,236 --> 00:28:55,436
Speaker 1: every day to graduate kindergarten. Then you should have to

549
00:28:55,796 --> 00:28:59,076
Speaker 1: recite it by heart to graduate out of eighth grade, right,

550
00:28:59,116 --> 00:29:00,756
Speaker 1: and then then you know what I mean. But yeah,

551
00:29:00,796 --> 00:29:03,276
Speaker 1: and it's and it's kind of crazy and insane that

552
00:29:03,476 --> 00:29:06,436
Speaker 1: kids who go to Mollison Elementary don't know that history,

553
00:29:06,476 --> 00:29:09,316
Speaker 1: don't know the story of that civil rights struggle, that's

554
00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:13,116
Speaker 1: their history. And so your your tiktoks are both addressing

555
00:29:13,156 --> 00:29:15,236
Speaker 1: things that we should feel pride and and but there

556
00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:20,316
Speaker 1: they are addressing these systemic bullshit problems. Yeah, for sure, Right,

557
00:29:20,356 --> 00:29:22,236
Speaker 1: if you're traveling anywhere in the world, you're gonna walk

558
00:29:22,276 --> 00:29:24,116
Speaker 1: back somebody with cubs had or a sock's head or

559
00:29:24,116 --> 00:29:26,076
Speaker 1: a bear's head, and then y'all gonna make this act

560
00:29:26,156 --> 00:29:28,076
Speaker 1: contact with each other, right and give each other that

561
00:29:28,196 --> 00:29:30,276
Speaker 1: head now. And they don't matter what ethnicity they are.

562
00:29:30,316 --> 00:29:32,756
Speaker 1: If y'all out of town, y'all both from Chicago, it's

563
00:29:32,796 --> 00:29:36,116
Speaker 1: gonna be an acknowledgement. Right, TikTok allows for that to happen.

564
00:29:36,516 --> 00:29:38,716
Speaker 1: I don't see the head not back, right, but when

565
00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:40,676
Speaker 1: they when they get the video and they see me,

566
00:29:40,756 --> 00:29:43,476
Speaker 1: they're able to give that Chicago head nod. But it

567
00:29:43,596 --> 00:29:46,796
Speaker 1: also sounds like you have a huge audience outside of Chicago.

568
00:29:46,956 --> 00:29:48,916
Speaker 1: And if that's true, what do you think appeals to

569
00:29:48,996 --> 00:29:54,316
Speaker 1: people who are not actually Chicagoans? I think think the truth, Right,

570
00:29:54,636 --> 00:29:59,796
Speaker 1: there's a natural Chicago curiosity, La curiosity, New York curiosity,

571
00:30:00,196 --> 00:30:04,396
Speaker 1: and hearing bullcrap sometimes sounds like bullcrap and so and

572
00:30:04,436 --> 00:30:06,876
Speaker 1: when you mean bullcrap of like vilifying the city, of

573
00:30:06,876 --> 00:30:08,836
Speaker 1: saying the city is a war zone, of saying that

574
00:30:08,836 --> 00:30:10,676
Speaker 1: it's like did you if you go in there, you're

575
00:30:10,676 --> 00:30:14,156
Speaker 1: gonna get shot? Like it's dangerous everywhere you go. Yep,

576
00:30:14,396 --> 00:30:17,036
Speaker 1: absolutely well. Last year, right, I announced that we want

577
00:30:17,076 --> 00:30:20,276
Speaker 1: best Big City for five years running about Kande nassas

578
00:30:20,356 --> 00:30:23,956
Speaker 1: Reader's Choice. It's a national platform, righty, Chicago is ain't

579
00:30:23,996 --> 00:30:26,756
Speaker 1: sitting around feeling out that survey. Right people coming to

580
00:30:26,876 --> 00:30:30,116
Speaker 1: Chicago's filing out that survey. And it's true, We're an

581
00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:32,956
Speaker 1: amazing city. I believe it was Northwestern that did a

582
00:30:33,156 --> 00:30:36,476
Speaker 1: study that says it was like really really telling too,

583
00:30:37,036 --> 00:30:40,436
Speaker 1: like ninety two percent of all people who get shot

584
00:30:40,516 --> 00:30:43,676
Speaker 1: in Chicago had a ninety five percent probability of getting

585
00:30:43,716 --> 00:30:46,476
Speaker 1: shot in Chicago based off of the lifestyle that they

586
00:30:46,516 --> 00:30:49,556
Speaker 1: were living, right. And So what that makes me want

587
00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:53,116
Speaker 1: to talk about is the other two point five million

588
00:30:53,196 --> 00:30:56,636
Speaker 1: of us who are outside of that number, who day

589
00:30:56,716 --> 00:30:59,276
Speaker 1: by day don't get shot, right, who the probability says

590
00:30:59,356 --> 00:31:02,116
Speaker 1: we aren't going to get shot because of the amazing things,

591
00:31:02,156 --> 00:31:06,516
Speaker 1: but just the culture and the sustainability of our City.

592
00:31:06,596 --> 00:31:09,796
Speaker 1: Global warming is real, the same way that everybody's beating

593
00:31:09,876 --> 00:31:12,396
Speaker 1: up on Chicago. Now in fifty years, we're going to

594
00:31:12,476 --> 00:31:15,636
Speaker 1: be right back over crowded just because of Lake Michigan. Yeah. Yeah,

595
00:31:16,036 --> 00:31:18,756
Speaker 1: you know, I'm still struggling with this idea of what

596
00:31:18,836 --> 00:31:20,636
Speaker 1: it means to be a booster for a place. And

597
00:31:21,316 --> 00:31:24,276
Speaker 1: I actually follow you because it gives me. It makes

598
00:31:24,316 --> 00:31:27,196
Speaker 1: me feel good about my home. And I'm hearing things

599
00:31:27,276 --> 00:31:29,596
Speaker 1: I want to hear, and I'm also walking the streets

600
00:31:29,636 --> 00:31:33,196
Speaker 1: on the South Side and you know, a car suddenly

601
00:31:33,316 --> 00:31:35,116
Speaker 1: zooms up and the first thought that is in my

602
00:31:35,196 --> 00:31:36,956
Speaker 1: head is like, there's about to be a car jacking,

603
00:31:36,996 --> 00:31:39,436
Speaker 1: because its actually been like two or three on the block,

604
00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:43,836
Speaker 1: like not like imaginary stuff, real stuff. And when there's

605
00:31:43,876 --> 00:31:46,956
Speaker 1: a shooting at the school two blocks for me where

606
00:31:47,116 --> 00:31:49,196
Speaker 1: parents are pulling their kids out, and I've got neighbors

607
00:31:49,236 --> 00:31:52,196
Speaker 1: who want to move, Like, it's not just that five

608
00:31:52,236 --> 00:31:54,836
Speaker 1: percent that got shot. It's also like all the residual

609
00:31:54,876 --> 00:31:57,716
Speaker 1: effects of all this stuff, which is real, as you know.

610
00:31:57,876 --> 00:31:59,916
Speaker 1: And like what you're really talking about is fear. This fear,

611
00:32:00,316 --> 00:32:02,716
Speaker 1: a sense of like how do you even rationally deal

612
00:32:02,796 --> 00:32:04,756
Speaker 1: with danger? I mean, you were talking about your father

613
00:32:04,876 --> 00:32:08,756
Speaker 1: being on the Chicago Police Department for thirty years and

614
00:32:08,876 --> 00:32:11,436
Speaker 1: you obviously you saw a lot firsthand, and you feel

615
00:32:11,516 --> 00:32:15,156
Speaker 1: great pride in what he did, like even personally, how

616
00:32:15,196 --> 00:32:17,796
Speaker 1: do you tell his story and celebrate what he did

617
00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:21,756
Speaker 1: and also tell the story of abusive policing that's also

618
00:32:21,876 --> 00:32:25,756
Speaker 1: part of the story of Chicago. You just tell it.

619
00:32:26,316 --> 00:32:29,076
Speaker 1: You know, it's gonna have a little bias in it

620
00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:32,036
Speaker 1: because I'm a Chicago and right with my perspective is black,

621
00:32:32,076 --> 00:32:34,636
Speaker 1: So maybe I'm slightly rooting for the black guy in

622
00:32:34,676 --> 00:32:38,356
Speaker 1: the story a little more. I just I try to

623
00:32:38,476 --> 00:32:41,476
Speaker 1: just have a very objective perspective about the stories that

624
00:32:41,636 --> 00:32:45,196
Speaker 1: I'm telling, and I think because of the intersectionalities of

625
00:32:45,356 --> 00:32:48,036
Speaker 1: my life, it makes it makes me uniquely able to

626
00:32:48,156 --> 00:32:51,676
Speaker 1: do it right, you know. Can you give an example? Yeah? Absolutely.

627
00:32:51,876 --> 00:32:53,756
Speaker 1: There was nothing better for me than to just watch.

628
00:32:54,196 --> 00:32:55,996
Speaker 1: He taught me how to tie a tie at four,

629
00:32:56,556 --> 00:32:59,316
Speaker 1: and so I would tie his ties when he put

630
00:32:59,396 --> 00:33:01,556
Speaker 1: in his uniform on and I was standing there and

631
00:33:01,636 --> 00:33:03,156
Speaker 1: wait to hand it to him, so he just pull

632
00:33:03,196 --> 00:33:05,356
Speaker 1: it around his neck. And just seeing him put that

633
00:33:05,556 --> 00:33:07,876
Speaker 1: badge on, right, seeing him put his gun in his

634
00:33:07,996 --> 00:33:10,756
Speaker 1: host that it gave me, and he was a superhero

635
00:33:10,876 --> 00:33:12,996
Speaker 1: to you. Your father was a superhero to you, and

636
00:33:13,516 --> 00:33:17,596
Speaker 1: just not just he made police superheroes to me. Right,

637
00:33:18,036 --> 00:33:20,836
Speaker 1: And then it could be hours later. I'm at the

638
00:33:20,956 --> 00:33:22,916
Speaker 1: rink on eighty seven Street on the South Side with

639
00:33:23,036 --> 00:33:24,956
Speaker 1: my friends and the cop and say hey, move and

640
00:33:25,036 --> 00:33:26,996
Speaker 1: I don't move fast enough, and I got a na

641
00:33:27,156 --> 00:33:30,516
Speaker 1: miller met at my head. Right, it didn't even get

642
00:33:30,676 --> 00:33:33,716
Speaker 1: enough time to register your acts and me to walk away. Man,

643
00:33:33,756 --> 00:33:35,956
Speaker 1: that's crazy. So a cop put a gun to your

644
00:33:35,996 --> 00:33:38,956
Speaker 1: head for what And you're not saying a hypothetical, You're

645
00:33:38,956 --> 00:33:42,316
Speaker 1: talking about something. This is one thousand percent what happened

646
00:33:42,316 --> 00:33:44,516
Speaker 1: to me. This is a thousand percent what happened to me.

647
00:33:44,596 --> 00:33:47,436
Speaker 1: I was chilling. I just got my license. This is

648
00:33:47,476 --> 00:33:50,316
Speaker 1: not a hypothetical, right, like I did all the time,

649
00:33:50,436 --> 00:33:52,356
Speaker 1: handed him his tie to go to work and you know,

650
00:33:52,556 --> 00:33:54,676
Speaker 1: to have a great day dad, and still felt that

651
00:33:54,756 --> 00:33:56,676
Speaker 1: pride that I had been filling my whole life. And

652
00:33:56,796 --> 00:33:58,676
Speaker 1: so both of those are true at the same time

653
00:33:58,916 --> 00:34:01,956
Speaker 1: at the same time. Man, And it's it's those It's

654
00:34:01,996 --> 00:34:04,276
Speaker 1: so many stars. I come across them all the time.

655
00:34:04,796 --> 00:34:08,516
Speaker 1: I'm only emphasizing how incredible this brother storytelling is I

656
00:34:08,596 --> 00:34:11,116
Speaker 1: mean he is. He is telling stories that people ought

657
00:34:11,196 --> 00:34:13,876
Speaker 1: to know. This isn't just a Chicago story. These are

658
00:34:13,956 --> 00:34:16,676
Speaker 1: national stories. That's the other thing about messaging. And I

659
00:34:16,756 --> 00:34:19,756
Speaker 1: think that's our problem as a city, right. You know

660
00:34:19,836 --> 00:34:22,196
Speaker 1: the people who work in city hall, right, whoever does

661
00:34:22,236 --> 00:34:26,436
Speaker 1: our advertising our messaging stinks. This is the worst. Right.

662
00:34:26,956 --> 00:34:29,676
Speaker 1: So one last question, Della, one last question for you.

663
00:34:29,996 --> 00:34:33,436
Speaker 1: You're celebrating all these amazing Chicago things. Everything dope comes

664
00:34:33,476 --> 00:34:36,876
Speaker 1: from Chicago. So Khalil and I are from Chicago. Yeah, man,

665
00:34:36,996 --> 00:34:39,956
Speaker 1: we want to be celebrated, right, Like you know, when

666
00:34:39,996 --> 00:34:42,596
Speaker 1: you do the TikTok about us, we're making history. A

667
00:34:42,676 --> 00:34:45,436
Speaker 1: white guy and a black guy getting together. You know,

668
00:34:45,556 --> 00:34:49,596
Speaker 1: he broke the color line of podcasts. You know, when

669
00:34:49,636 --> 00:34:52,956
Speaker 1: you do the TikTok about us, what's the hook gonna be?

670
00:34:53,876 --> 00:34:55,836
Speaker 1: Let's see who I'm gonna compare you guys too. I

671
00:34:55,916 --> 00:35:01,516
Speaker 1: think I will make the comparisons. You'll be Julius rosenwall right.

672
00:35:02,596 --> 00:35:06,036
Speaker 1: Sears the founder of Sears Roebuck Company. So he's the

673
00:35:06,076 --> 00:35:08,796
Speaker 1: reason why you know what Sears and Roebuck Company is today.

674
00:35:09,116 --> 00:35:12,356
Speaker 1: And he took over as president. They were at about

675
00:35:12,396 --> 00:35:14,676
Speaker 1: two hundred thousand a year, and when he left to

676
00:35:14,876 --> 00:35:18,756
Speaker 1: pursue philanthropy totally, they were like at two hundred million

677
00:35:18,836 --> 00:35:21,156
Speaker 1: a year. And this is nineteen twenties money, all right,

678
00:35:21,196 --> 00:35:24,036
Speaker 1: So not the founder. He just built the company into something,

679
00:35:24,236 --> 00:35:27,436
Speaker 1: built the company out right. He's also he created two

680
00:35:27,476 --> 00:35:29,956
Speaker 1: thousand high schools in the South. John Lewis graduated from

681
00:35:29,956 --> 00:35:32,076
Speaker 1: a rosen Water school to name the google as soon

682
00:35:32,156 --> 00:35:34,956
Speaker 1: as you hear this podcast right now, Julius Roads and

683
00:35:35,036 --> 00:35:38,476
Speaker 1: Wall Ben that's a lot, man. So I'm like, damn, well,

684
00:35:38,516 --> 00:35:40,676
Speaker 1: what's left so that that would be being And then

685
00:35:40,716 --> 00:35:44,036
Speaker 1: I think you, brother Muhammed, you'd be Carter G. Woodson man.

686
00:35:44,556 --> 00:35:49,796
Speaker 1: You know, such grad school, the University of Chicago holding

687
00:35:49,836 --> 00:35:52,076
Speaker 1: shop at the Wall bash YMCA, which is on the

688
00:35:52,156 --> 00:35:56,756
Speaker 1: South side, is the birthplace a Black History Month, all

689
00:35:56,836 --> 00:36:01,076
Speaker 1: of the lectures. Right, He personally, you know, schooled so

690
00:36:01,236 --> 00:36:05,556
Speaker 1: many people. He got Archibald Motley to continue to paint, right,

691
00:36:05,716 --> 00:36:09,556
Speaker 1: that's right, one of the Renaissance painters. He was. He

692
00:36:09,716 --> 00:36:13,836
Speaker 1: was in Chicago at such a pivotal time teaching organizational

693
00:36:13,996 --> 00:36:17,596
Speaker 1: skills and eventually right they found the Chicago urinly they

694
00:36:17,636 --> 00:36:21,436
Speaker 1: get the Chicago branch of the NAACP. But it's a

695
00:36:21,516 --> 00:36:24,396
Speaker 1: lot to do with people who were as students of

696
00:36:24,596 --> 00:36:27,116
Speaker 1: him while he was a student, right, you know, so

697
00:36:27,676 --> 00:36:31,076
Speaker 1: that that that'd be YouTube, got it? Got it? I

698
00:36:31,116 --> 00:36:34,076
Speaker 1: appreciate that. So Ben, Ben's the philanthropist. So Ben, I

699
00:36:34,596 --> 00:36:36,596
Speaker 1: need some money, man, I need I need you to

700
00:36:36,676 --> 00:36:39,396
Speaker 1: fund my next research project. You know, when this serious

701
00:36:39,436 --> 00:36:41,276
Speaker 1: thing blows up, I got you. I just need this.

702
00:36:41,556 --> 00:36:44,956
Speaker 1: I just need this serious thing to blow out. You

703
00:36:45,036 --> 00:36:48,036
Speaker 1: are doing so much, not just for Chicago, but for

704
00:36:48,156 --> 00:36:50,876
Speaker 1: lifting up the stories of our past that we need

705
00:36:50,956 --> 00:36:53,836
Speaker 1: to know, the good, the bad, the ugly. You're reminding

706
00:36:53,956 --> 00:36:56,196
Speaker 1: us that for some of us, we come from greatness,

707
00:36:56,436 --> 00:36:59,636
Speaker 1: meaning that you know, people have sacrificed on our behalf

708
00:36:59,756 --> 00:37:03,156
Speaker 1: to pave the way for others. And I just so

709
00:37:03,316 --> 00:37:06,396
Speaker 1: appreciate how much you are doing in that city and

710
00:37:06,556 --> 00:37:10,156
Speaker 1: for your community, and especially for those beutiful daughters of

711
00:37:10,316 --> 00:37:13,476
Speaker 1: yours and listen, and you're also you're also showing a

712
00:37:13,596 --> 00:37:17,556
Speaker 1: love for learning, which is infectious, and you know we're

713
00:37:17,596 --> 00:37:19,476
Speaker 1: feeling it, and I think you know everyone else who

714
00:37:19,596 --> 00:37:22,516
Speaker 1: is listening to you is as well. Thank you, all right,

715
00:37:22,516 --> 00:37:24,716
Speaker 1: thank you very much. I was humble when I got

716
00:37:24,756 --> 00:37:27,276
Speaker 1: the request. I really, I really am. I appreciate both

717
00:37:27,316 --> 00:37:29,516
Speaker 1: of you guys in the work that you're doing, the

718
00:37:29,836 --> 00:37:33,076
Speaker 1: legacy you both carries. Like I say, I still think

719
00:37:33,156 --> 00:37:35,356
Speaker 1: being sort of ows being a hot dog, he said,

720
00:37:35,356 --> 00:37:38,316
Speaker 1: at least ten books do I definitely do now now now,

721
00:37:38,396 --> 00:37:40,676
Speaker 1: after this show one hundred percent or you're a hot dog.

722
00:37:40,836 --> 00:37:43,476
Speaker 1: Thank you guys. Hey man, you're now one of our

723
00:37:43,556 --> 00:37:45,836
Speaker 1: best friends, so I hope you'll you'll come back and

724
00:37:45,996 --> 00:37:48,796
Speaker 1: join us at some point again. All right, man, thank you,

725
00:37:49,116 --> 00:38:01,636
Speaker 1: thank you. Khalil talking Adela, it's like those Russian nesting dolls,

726
00:38:01,676 --> 00:38:03,876
Speaker 1: you know, you open one and there's one bit of history,

727
00:38:04,316 --> 00:38:07,076
Speaker 1: and then like you find out that story has eleven

728
00:38:07,156 --> 00:38:10,116
Speaker 1: other stories inside of it. Yeah, well that's I think

729
00:38:10,196 --> 00:38:13,916
Speaker 1: that's part of the beauty of studying a place, is

730
00:38:14,036 --> 00:38:17,916
Speaker 1: that in real time, histories are complicated. Places are complicated,

731
00:38:17,956 --> 00:38:20,636
Speaker 1: and the people who make our lives meaningful to us

732
00:38:20,676 --> 00:38:24,116
Speaker 1: are also complicated. And I think that's what we want

733
00:38:24,116 --> 00:38:26,556
Speaker 1: to impart even in this conversation that we have every week.

734
00:38:27,276 --> 00:38:31,036
Speaker 1: God just like even thinking now that he has committed

735
00:38:31,076 --> 00:38:33,116
Speaker 1: all of this to memory, you know that this is

736
00:38:33,196 --> 00:38:36,116
Speaker 1: all sort of in his head and he's telling these

737
00:38:36,196 --> 00:38:40,676
Speaker 1: different histories. It's like, it's so incredibly impressive and powerful.

738
00:38:40,956 --> 00:38:43,956
Speaker 1: It's impressive and powerful, but it also speaks to a

739
00:38:44,036 --> 00:38:48,916
Speaker 1: bigger moment in time. I mean, in an age of misinformation,

740
00:38:49,916 --> 00:38:53,356
Speaker 1: he's still fact checking and doing research. He's still looking

741
00:38:53,396 --> 00:38:56,796
Speaker 1: at books, he's still going to the library. And I know,

742
00:38:56,996 --> 00:39:01,076
Speaker 1: for me, it's really important that people take facts seriously.

743
00:39:01,316 --> 00:39:04,596
Speaker 1: And I think he's modeling for everybody, even in the

744
00:39:04,716 --> 00:39:08,316
Speaker 1: age of misinformation and social media, how important it is

745
00:39:08,556 --> 00:39:13,196
Speaker 1: to to be grounded in facts and evidence and to

746
00:39:13,316 --> 00:39:16,436
Speaker 1: really see history as as a source of empowerment for everyone.

747
00:39:16,756 --> 00:39:20,356
Speaker 1: That's a great point that even though this is essentially online,

748
00:39:20,676 --> 00:39:23,676
Speaker 1: and that even if it's oral, that it is based

749
00:39:23,756 --> 00:39:27,756
Speaker 1: in fact. And you're saying that like to I want

750
00:39:27,836 --> 00:39:30,556
Speaker 1: to ask you this, like, does the way that Dylla

751
00:39:31,036 --> 00:39:35,516
Speaker 1: sees the positive in a history and raises the positive

752
00:39:35,556 --> 00:39:38,116
Speaker 1: above all else, does it change at all how you

753
00:39:38,236 --> 00:39:42,076
Speaker 1: think you want to tell history. No, um, it doesn't.

754
00:39:42,276 --> 00:39:46,276
Speaker 1: Meaning that I don't see my histories as as negative.

755
00:39:46,396 --> 00:39:50,356
Speaker 1: I see them as essential. And to Dylla's credit, I

756
00:39:50,436 --> 00:39:52,676
Speaker 1: think some of the stories that he's telling on TikTok

757
00:39:53,316 --> 00:39:55,836
Speaker 1: is also about the lives of people who have been

758
00:39:56,036 --> 00:40:00,516
Speaker 1: killed in gang violence or random by standard violence. And

759
00:40:01,036 --> 00:40:04,676
Speaker 1: I think giving those people a history of their own

760
00:40:04,756 --> 00:40:07,156
Speaker 1: personal lives, a biography, a story of who they are,

761
00:40:07,876 --> 00:40:10,316
Speaker 1: is not necessarily an uplifd story, but it is a

762
00:40:10,396 --> 00:40:14,196
Speaker 1: story that is important to give more dimension to the

763
00:40:14,316 --> 00:40:16,916
Speaker 1: context of people's lives. Yeah, I mean, I think for me,

764
00:40:17,396 --> 00:40:20,956
Speaker 1: I'm like that as well, that I'm sort of get

765
00:40:21,036 --> 00:40:23,716
Speaker 1: lost in the complexity of things. And you know, he

766
00:40:23,876 --> 00:40:29,956
Speaker 1: talks about the structural bullshit, you know, to like tell

767
00:40:30,036 --> 00:40:33,316
Speaker 1: those stories, but to also show that their effects are

768
00:40:33,396 --> 00:40:36,356
Speaker 1: not the totality of experience. I almost come to the

769
00:40:36,436 --> 00:40:39,076
Speaker 1: same point, but from the opposite side, you know, and

770
00:40:39,196 --> 00:40:42,476
Speaker 1: meet him somewhere in the middle. I'm certainly like moved

771
00:40:42,556 --> 00:40:44,756
Speaker 1: by him, Like I really, I really do listen to

772
00:40:44,836 --> 00:40:47,676
Speaker 1: him because it makes me. It makes me feel better

773
00:40:47,796 --> 00:40:51,556
Speaker 1: about my home. Yeah, and look, not for nothing, the

774
00:40:51,636 --> 00:40:54,116
Speaker 1: fact that he's telling these stories, which many of which

775
00:40:54,316 --> 00:40:58,476
Speaker 1: are uncovered and unheard of or buried in a book somewhere.

776
00:40:59,076 --> 00:41:01,556
Speaker 1: This is not just the story of how the first

777
00:41:01,596 --> 00:41:04,956
Speaker 1: skyscraper in Chicago was built. That's important. He's adding so

778
00:41:05,236 --> 00:41:08,156
Speaker 1: much more context to a very complicated city. And we

779
00:41:08,596 --> 00:41:11,516
Speaker 1: all shod be grateful for that, and I'm grateful that

780
00:41:11,596 --> 00:41:13,876
Speaker 1: he is now going to include us in that history

781
00:41:14,516 --> 00:41:19,956
Speaker 1: so well. Khalil love you, yeah, Man, I love you too,

782
00:41:20,156 --> 00:41:22,716
Speaker 1: and I'm grateful for you, all right, I'm grateful for you.

783
00:41:28,156 --> 00:41:30,476
Speaker 1: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of

784
00:41:30,596 --> 00:41:34,476
Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me Khalil,

785
00:41:34,556 --> 00:41:38,036
Speaker 1: Gibron Mohammed and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced

786
00:41:38,076 --> 00:41:42,676
Speaker 1: by John Assanti and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is Jasmine Morris,

787
00:41:43,036 --> 00:41:46,676
Speaker 1: our engineer is Amanda k Juan, and our executive producer

788
00:41:46,796 --> 00:41:51,276
Speaker 1: is Mia LaBelle. At Pushkin thanks to leitaal Mullad, Julia Barton,

789
00:41:51,596 --> 00:41:57,636
Speaker 1: Heather Faine, Carl Migliori, John Schnars, Gretta Kone, and Jacob Weissberg.

790
00:41:57,956 --> 00:42:01,676
Speaker 1: Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the

791
00:42:01,796 --> 00:42:05,716
Speaker 1: brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely

792
00:42:05,716 --> 00:42:08,436
Speaker 1: want to check out his music at his website Avery R.

793
00:42:08,556 --> 00:42:12,196
Speaker 1: Young dot You can find Pushkin on all social platforms

794
00:42:12,276 --> 00:42:14,996
Speaker 1: at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our

795
00:42:15,036 --> 00:42:19,076
Speaker 1: newsletter at pushkin dot Fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts,

796
00:42:19,476 --> 00:42:23,476
Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you

797
00:42:23,596 --> 00:42:26,156
Speaker 1: like to listen. And if you like our show, please

798
00:42:26,236 --> 00:42:28,996
Speaker 1: give us a five star rating and a review and listen.

799
00:42:29,036 --> 00:42:30,396
Speaker 1: Even if you don't like it, give it a five

800
00:42:30,476 --> 00:42:33,356
Speaker 1: star rating and a review, and please tell all of

801
00:42:33,436 --> 00:42:36,076
Speaker 1: your best friends about it. Thank you, and listen. I

802
00:42:36,356 --> 00:42:38,916
Speaker 1: also owe Dilla a hot dog, you know, for being

803
00:42:38,996 --> 00:42:40,836
Speaker 1: on the show, and just because I want to. I

804
00:42:40,916 --> 00:42:43,156
Speaker 1: want to tell him how much I appreciate him, and

805
00:42:43,756 --> 00:42:45,316
Speaker 1: you know, in the same way that he shouted out

806
00:42:45,396 --> 00:42:47,436
Speaker 1: my book, I want to give him a shout out

807
00:42:47,516 --> 00:42:50,676
Speaker 1: that everyone should go and follow him, you know, on Instagram,

808
00:42:50,956 --> 00:42:56,836
Speaker 1: on Twitter TikTok. His handle is six figure Underscore Villa

809
00:42:57,116 --> 00:43:02,716
Speaker 1: at six Figga Underscore d I l LA it's music

810
00:43:02,796 --> 00:43:11,876
Speaker 1: even to say six figure Dilla rubb with Harry Back