1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: Masters in Business is brought to you by the American 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Arbitration Association. Business disputes are inevitable, Resolve Faster with the 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: American Arbitration Association, the global leader in alternative dispute resolution 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: for over ninety years. Learn more at a d R 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: dot org. This is Masters in Business with Very Ridholts 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,159 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. This week on the podcast, I have 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: Professor Jeffrey Sachs, and this is really a fascinating conversation 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: and it doesn't get very wonky. We talked about all 9 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: sorts of things, from sustainable investing to where President Trump 10 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: should be spending his infrastructure dollars. Uh. There are so 11 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: many things that Professor Sachs has experience and expertise in. 12 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: If you are all interested in macroeconomics, in sustainable investing, 13 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: in a variety of issues that lie at the intersection 14 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: of politics, technology and economics, then I think you'll find 15 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: this conversation quite fascinating. So, with no further ado, my 16 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: conversation with Professor Jeffrey Sachs. This is Masters in Business 17 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today 18 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: is Professor Jeffrey Sachs. Of Columbia University. I am going 19 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: to give you a greatly abbreviated version of his CV, 20 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: otherwise will have no time left for questions. He is 21 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: the University professor at Columbia. It is the highest rank 22 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: the university bestows on any faculty member. UH. He is 23 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: an economist director of the Earth Institute. He's written numerous 24 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: New York Times bestsellers, The End of Poverty, Commonwealth, and 25 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: the Price of Civilization. His most recent book is Building 26 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: the New American Economy, Smart, Fair and Sustainable. He has 27 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: advised countries such as Bolivia, Poland, Slovenia, Estonia, and Russia 28 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: as to how to become market based economies. I can 29 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: describe his background forever. But rather than just dwell on 30 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: his advice to the World Bank, to the Organization of 31 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: Economic Cooperation, to the World's Health Organization, why don't I 32 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 1: just say, Professor Jeffrey Sachs, welcome to Bloomberg. Hey, Verry, 33 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: thank you very much. Great to be here. So our 34 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: timing couldn't be more auspicious, because we've entered a uh 35 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: somewhat new era, it seems, following the election and questions 36 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: about jobs and productivity and sustainability and inequality are everywhere. 37 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: So so let's let's jump right into this. In in 38 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: one of your books, you reference that you had an 39 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: economic vision beyond g DP. What does that mean? We're 40 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: pretty rich in this country. And if you just look 41 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: at our total output, our gross domestic product and divided 42 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: by the population, were at some dollars or so per person, 43 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: pretty darn good. It's risen basically three times in the 44 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: last half century. And yet we don't feel so good. 45 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: And this is a paradox. It actually even has a 46 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: name in academic economics. It's called the Easterland paradox, named 47 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: after a professor at a University of Pennsylvania who tracked 48 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: the data and he looked at how Americans think about 49 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: their happiness over the last fifty years. And the economy says, 50 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: the economy is going up, but the happiness is stuck. 51 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: And I just looked at the very most recent data 52 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: and not surprisingly, the happiness actually going down. It's not 53 00:03:55,320 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: even treading water anymore. So America Americans feel that we're 54 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: off track. Uh, there's a lot of unhappiness, disgruntlement where 55 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: at each other's throats. We don't trust our government, We 56 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: don't trust each other, and that means that we're not 57 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: getting what we would have expected to get out of 58 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: all this affluence. And in this sense, since an economy 59 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: is basically to serve the human purpose, it's not to 60 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: make numbers in a table of G n P. It's 61 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: to help make us prosperous, healthy, happy, and it's not 62 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: happening right now. We need to look more deeply at why. So, 63 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: so let's discuss that Thomas Picketty's book really resonated with 64 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of people. Uh, it was 65 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: really a very deep dive into economic inequality. But when 66 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: we look at the data, inequality has been expanding for decades. Now, 67 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: why has it taken so long for this to reach 68 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: a boiling point? Well, I think it is like a 69 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: boiling point, which is that you can put the pot 70 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: on the stove and for a while you don't see 71 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: any bubbles, and then it does start boiling. And I 72 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: think that exactly, you know, you warm the frog who 73 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: just sits in the water until they're they're gone, And 74 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: I think that for us, Uh, we see really now 75 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: for almost four decades a rise of inequality, and for 76 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: a while we were just into the greed is good category. 77 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: In the eighties that was a new boom period. And 78 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: then with the end of the Cold War, we thought, Okay, 79 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: now we're going to have our big peace dividend, and 80 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: then we went back to World War War UH in 81 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: at the start of this century. And yet all through 82 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: this the economy has expanded, technology has improved, and inequality 83 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: has widened, and more and more Americans say they don't 84 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: like government, they don't trust each other, and they're not 85 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: so happy. So it's really, in this sense, very peculiar 86 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: unsatisfying moment for America. And I think the election of 87 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, which is a signal of the most divided 88 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: we've ever been in in the last century, UH is 89 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: really making us take another look at all of this. 90 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: I just read a fascinating study, and I'm sure I'm 91 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: getting this slightly wrong. Something like a third of the 92 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: opponents of Obamacare don't realize the A c A and 93 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: Obamacare are the same thing. How much of this discontent 94 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: is genuine people are actually hurting, and how much of 95 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: it is a product of people being either uninformed or misinformed. 96 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: I think that the discontent is real. I think the 97 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: mood is surly. We clearly have a real cultural divide 98 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,119 Speaker 1: in this country, because when you look at the election map, 99 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: the big cities by and large go for the Democrats, 100 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: and the rural areas and the smaller towns and the 101 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: suburbs more or less go for the Republicans. And that's 102 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: not true just in the most recent elections. So that 103 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: division is really quite real. The perceptions of the world 104 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: are quite different. Um, and why we're not able to 105 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: use our clear much greater wealth, our ability to solve problems, 106 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: to camp this down. Why we are at the boiling 107 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: point is a bit of a mystery. Not every country 108 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: is like ours, that is at each other's throats. Were 109 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: not alone in this though. By the way, it's Brexit 110 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: and France exactly. All of that signals that this cultural 111 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: divide is real. I'm very rital. You're listening to Masters 112 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today is 113 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: Professor Jeffrey Sachs of Columbia University. His latest book, and 114 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: I'm grabbing it right here, Building the New American Economy, Smart, 115 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: Fair and Sustainable, with a forward by Bernie Sanders. So 116 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about the new American economy 117 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: as much as we've been hearing that globalization is the enemy, 118 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: how accurate is that compared to the rise of robots, 119 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,719 Speaker 1: the rise of artificial intelligence. It's been famously said by 120 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: some venture capitalists software is eating everything. How much of 121 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: this is technology and how much of this is really globalization? 122 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: Globalization is not the enemy. Globalization is the reality. We 123 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: have global scale production systems, global scale payment systems, global 124 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: scale communication systems, global scale internet, and it's gonna be 125 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: that way because is it's just so productive. And that's 126 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: what makes a world economy that's now a hundred twenty 127 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: five trillion dollars uh, And that means a world economy 128 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: that is about seventeen thousand dollars per person on this planet. 129 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: Really amazing, unbelievable productivity. And that's why globalization is not 130 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: going away, because we depend on it for prosperity. How 131 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: much does technology enabled globalization? Well, technologies everything, even something 132 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: that one might not even think of as technology, a 133 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: standardized container that you can load and unload. That was 134 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: an invention in the early nineties sixties. There's a wonderful 135 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: book called The Box that's the history of you got it. 136 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: It's really quite fast and and you know that seems 137 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: pretty basic, but it was the ability to standardize international 138 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: trade that was fundamental, or the rise of East Asia. 139 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: But more than that, of course, computer assisted design and 140 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: manufacturing and then ubiquitous broadband and standardization of information systems 141 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: and digitization are of course transforming the whole world, transforming 142 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: every sector of the world, disrupting every sector of the 143 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: world on the whole, adding to our well being and 144 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: our productivity, but not uniformally. That's a big part in 145 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: any technology revolution. You have people that are left behind, 146 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: people who are put unemployed. Uh, And the decency of 147 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: a normal society is to say, we continue with progress, 148 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: but we make sure that we don't open up large 149 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: pockets of poverty. And so you're really addressing something right 150 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: here that is key to the discontent that's out there. 151 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: What is the proper role of government in supporting a 152 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: middle American blue collar working class that are losing their 153 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: jobs to technology. What's the proper response. The proper response, 154 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 1: which should have been a response already thirty years ago, 155 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: is we're here to help with retraining, with real skilling, 156 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: with the tuition coverage, with the support for your children 157 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: to get a decent education. That's what normal good societies do. 158 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: I would put Canada in that list. I had put 159 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: countries in Scandinavia, put Germany in that list. In recent decades, 160 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: in the United States, we had an odd lurch from that, 161 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: and that started on January twenty Ronald Reagan stepped up 162 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: to take the oath and he said, the government is 163 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: not the solution to our problems. Government is the problem. 164 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: And we had, for the first time in the United 165 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: States in modern American history, a president who said I'm 166 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: here to preside over the dismantling of basic functions of 167 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: government because government is the problem. I think it was 168 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: a lousy diagnosis back in nineteen one. We've lived with 169 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: it for thirty five years, and uh, we're in our 170 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: thirty sixth year of that right now, and I think 171 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: it's a big mistake. It It appeals though, for one basic, 172 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: overwhelming reason. Everybody in our country loves tax cuts. And 173 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: so if you say we were gonna cut government down 174 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: to size, and we're gonna give you our umteenth middle 175 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: class tax cut, everyone jumps up and says, hussah. And 176 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: this is really a big problem. I I say that 177 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: fundamentally America is failing the marshmallow test. Uh, you know 178 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: the famous cost of can we delay gratification for a moment? Well, 179 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: clearly the richest people in our country can't because they're 180 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: so desperate for their next tax cut, and a lot 181 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: of other people are enticed to believe, uh, we're going 182 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: to give you another tax cut. But what we're really 183 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: doing is gutting the budget so that the budget can 184 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: no longer provide decent education. It can no longer guarantee 185 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: basic healthcare, it can no longer provide a childcare. It 186 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: can't guarantee as so many countries do, paid vacation, which 187 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: for Americans, oh my god, how could it be? But 188 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: most high income countries the world have guaranteed paid vacation. 189 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: Most high income countries in the world have guaranteed maternity, 190 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: even father's the time off for for newborns. It's decent, 191 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: you know, you think, Okay, we worked so hard as 192 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: a civilization for hundreds of years to get this wealth. 193 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: Let's enjoy it a little bit. Let the mom stay 194 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: home with the kids. But I paid for it. What 195 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: I find so fascinating about the tax cut issue is 196 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: I don't ever recall there being a schism amongst the 197 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: top one percent of the top one percent on issues 198 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: like tax cuts. So you have on one side of 199 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: the aisle Warren Buffett and Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates 200 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: and a run of left of center hedge fund managers 201 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: who are worth billions who say, you know, I pay 202 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: a lot of taxes, but I also, as was famously said, uh, 203 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,479 Speaker 1: taxes are the price of living in a civilized society. 204 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: You know. They can't spend this money, so they're trying 205 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: to figure out ways to give away billions of dollars. 206 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: They don't need more tax cuts. It's not going to 207 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: do anything for their incentives, for their work effort, for 208 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: their creativity. These people want to make a mark on 209 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: the world. It's not that they need another billion dollars. 210 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: They're trying to form new companies, new technologies, anticipate the 211 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: new ways to do things, and there's saying, really, stop 212 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: it already. Of course, others are saying, my god, I'm 213 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: only twenty three on the Forbes list. I gotta get 214 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: to sixteen on the fourth How did you show your 215 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: face at the club as number twenty seven billion dollars 216 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: net worth? You know, my friend down the block has 217 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: a twenty three billion It's absurd and and and that 218 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: is a big part of it. I'm Barry Rihults. You're 219 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: listening to Master's in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special 220 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: guest today is Professor Jeffrey Sachs. He holds the title 221 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: of University Professor. It's the highest rank Columbia bestows on 222 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: any faculty member. He's written multiple best sellers, most recently 223 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: Building the New American Economy. Let's talk a little bit 224 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: about the global fight against poverty and hunger. Um. You 225 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: were at Harvard for a long time. One of your colleagues, 226 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: Stephen Pinker, wrote a wonderful book called The Better Angels 227 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: of Our Nature Sure, and within it he describes how 228 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: despite the terrible parade of news we see, there's never 229 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: been a better time to be a human on this planet. 230 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: Uh inequality on a global basis has shrunk, Poverty has shrunk, 231 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: starvation is shrunk. War wars are are less. Less people 232 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: are dying in wars than ever before. Violent crime has 233 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: fallen into record lows. The number of children who are 234 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: nutritionally deficient are at all time lows. So what does 235 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: this say about the fight against global hunger and starvation. 236 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: It is indeed good news. The only footnote I would 237 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: add to the list is that on war, my god, 238 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: we're so bad at peace that don't believe trends. Just 239 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: keep fighting against new wars. But on all the other trends, 240 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: I think they're real, and I do think they're long term. 241 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: I wrote a book in two thousand five called The 242 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: End of Popery where I said, we could end extreme 243 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: poverty on the planet in our generation. That's indeed what 244 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: the trends show. For me. It's not only good news, though, 245 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: it's a little bit of anguish, because when you see 246 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: that suffering can be stopped because we have the tools 247 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: to do it, and it's not stopped even though the 248 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: numbers of those trapped in poverty are going down, you 249 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: perhaps feel a little bit more anguish. And that's how 250 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: I feel about it. We have nearly a billion people 251 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: still in extreme poverty as a share of the world population. 252 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: The estimates are that it's around ten percent of the 253 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: world population. Now what used to be back before the revolution. 254 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: Uh and uh, I know that we could bring it 255 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,239 Speaker 1: down to essentially zero in a short period of How 256 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: would we do that? I was involved over the last 257 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: fifteen years, and something called the Millennium Development Goals, which 258 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: were the u n's objectives to fight poverty. I recommended 259 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: back in two thousand and two thousand one that we 260 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: established a new fund to fight AIDS, TB and malaria. 261 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: I was delighted to hear just yesterday talking to some 262 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: of the experts that there are now eighteen million people 263 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: around the world alive because they're getting access to the 264 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: medicines that fight the AIDS virus. And I misremembering, did 265 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: you work with the Bush administration AIDS program in Africa? Absolutely, 266 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: that was a wildly successful program and by the way, 267 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: very interesting because I went in to see Condoles Rice 268 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: in two thousand one February at the National Security Council 269 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: in the situation room with the White House, and I 270 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: pitched a US program for three billion dollars a year 271 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: to fight AIDS, and Uh, she was very nice. Had 272 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: the NSC there asked me back in a couple of 273 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: couple of weeks after that, I came back a second time, 274 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: and then the President's Economic adviser walked me out of 275 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: the West Wing and said, Jeff, you know that was 276 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: pretty good, Uh, pretty persuasive. But don't hold your breath, 277 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: you know, this is just not our thing. Well, it 278 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: turned out to be the president's thing, by the way. 279 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: I don't think he came into office knowing that he 280 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: was going to be the great AIDS champion. But by 281 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: some measures, it's the most successful program under the Bush administration. 282 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: It surpassed all its targets. Not only did it work, 283 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: but the President said in a op ed afterwards, said 284 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: this is my proudest legacy. Wonderful, thank you. It's great. 285 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: And so Obama went in to see early in two 286 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: thousand nine and I pitched a similar thing, and he said, no, 287 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: we don't have the votes. And I was pretty disappointed 288 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: by the way, you know, because it's not a matter 289 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: of votes, it's a matter of leadership. And strangely enough, 290 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: neither Clinton or Obama really did much in international assistance. 291 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: George W. Bush, who I disagreed with on a lot 292 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: of other things, became the champion of fighting disease abroad. 293 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: With Trump. You know, he comes in with the reportedly 294 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: pretty surly attitude towards AID. But you never know because 295 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: he may say, and rightly so, by the way, that 296 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: for a small amount of money, we could ensure that 297 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: kids everywhere are in school and don't get radicalized. That 298 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: would be a really smart investment future security component billion dollars, 299 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: and you'd be able if we pulled together, say with China, 300 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: with Germany, with others, into a global fund for education. 301 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: We could stop the child soldiers, we could stop the radicalization. 302 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 1: We could stop the fact that kids are growing up 303 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: without schooling and therefore can't get jobs in the one 304 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: I think you have a trip coming up to d CS, Well, 305 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: I'm ready to go any moment. I'm very rich Helts. 306 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My 307 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: special guest today is Professor Jeffrey Sachs of Columbia University, 308 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: formerly of Harvard, and let's talk a little bit about 309 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: UM infrastructure, sustainability, and and some changes that are taking place. 310 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: Let's start with infrastructure. We heard from both candidates during 311 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: the election that they each wanted a trillion dollar infrastructure. 312 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: If you were tapped by the president to say, Jeff 313 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: I need some advice as to where to spend the 314 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: trillion dollars on on US infrastructure, what sort of advice 315 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: would you give him? I would tell him how to 316 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: get good advice, because what I would do is say, 317 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: let's go down the block from the White House to 318 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: the National Academy of Engineering. We have the world's leading engineers, 319 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: and get some really good advice on connectivity, on smart grids, 320 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: on renewable energy, of which our country has unbelievable amounts 321 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: from onshore wind, offshore wind, solar power, hydropower. Uh, and 322 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: let's make a system design. You know, when I was 323 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: growing up, which is a long time ago, UH, the 324 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: Interstate Highway system was being built, started in the fifties. 325 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: I was one year old when that was the first voted. 326 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: It went on for thirty years. To me, very interesting 327 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 1: because what do we do in our country anymore that 328 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: takes thirty years. But that was an important investment. It 329 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: went through Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter. UH. It 330 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: was basically a across all the political lines. We paid 331 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: for it with the gasoline tax and said we want 332 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: to have a modern highway system. Now we need a 333 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: modern grid. We need to bring the wind power from 334 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: the Dakotas to Chicago, to the population centers. We need 335 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: to bring the immense solar energy of the Majabbi in 336 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: the American Southwest to California to Texas to with the 337 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: rest of the country. We need to bring fantastic offshore 338 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: wind of the America in northeast to New York City. 339 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: They just sunk a few UH offshore winds far off 340 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: the coast of Montauk recently, first major wind projects in 341 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: the Northeast. This is great stuff. And one of the 342 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: companies that's going to be doing it in our neighborhood 343 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: is stat Oil, which is interesting because it's the oil 344 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: and gas company of Norway. But they learned how to 345 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: drill offshore well enough that they now how to know 346 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: how to put in offshore wind with that same manufacturing 347 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: and construction expertise. So they're going into the wind business, 348 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: which is fantastic. And the problem is the President, unfortunately, 349 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: is kind of stuck in nineteen eighties infrastructure. When he 350 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: thinks of infrastructure, apparently thinks of the Dakota UH pipeline 351 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: and he thinks of Keystone pipeline. That's the last thing 352 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: we need in the century. We just don't need that stuff. 353 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: That's billions of dollars down the drain. We need twenty 354 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 1: one century infrastructure. Obama made the same mistake, by the way, 355 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: because in two thousand nine he said, we need infrastructure, 356 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: but it should be shovel ready, and I thought, oh 357 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: my god. You know that's okay for the w P 358 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: A and three, but but why do we need shovel 359 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: ready infrastructure. We need fast rail, which is going to 360 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: take years to plan and design. Well, they never did 361 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: their homework. So let me push back a little bit 362 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: on some of the things that have been going on. 363 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: The idea of these things being a multi decade economic multiplier, 364 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: like the the interstate highway system, makes a ton of sense. 365 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: It doesn't seem the political political will the marshmallow test 366 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 1: as you described it, as there. And look no further 367 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: than the gasoline tax which was instituted by Eisenhower for 368 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: the highway trust system. It's been frozen. I want to say, 369 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: you've got it in exactly right. It has been frozen 370 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 1: since I think it's about eighteen cents a gallon, not 371 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: inflation adjusted, nothing twenty five years ago. Unbelievable. And and 372 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: that trust, the Highway Trust Fund is is depleted. And 373 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: now the other issue I have to raise politically is 374 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: we've seen certain states like Arizona and New Mexico, Nevada, 375 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: and Florida. Some of them have introduced lash legislation, and 376 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: I believe Nevada and Florida both have um Nevada passed it. 377 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: I don't know if it if it passed in Florida 378 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: that rolled back the mandate that consumers could put solar 379 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: on the roof and sell it back to the utility. 380 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: Are we going to see each of the states succumb 381 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: to the persuasive abilities and money of local utilities and 382 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: and make this a stillborn technology. It's even more crazy 383 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: because all these places are in despert risk of climate change, 384 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: whether it's rising sea levels which would submerge a lot 385 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: of Florida, whether it's a drought exactly, whether it's you know, 386 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: massive drought or what happened in UH in our state 387 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: with Hurricane Superstorm Sandy. UH and we just to clean 388 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: up is billions of dollars. And to take what's called 389 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: adaptive measures is price tag of forty billion dollars. And 390 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: we're paralyzed because who's going to pay for that? So 391 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: I think this question of long term thinking probably is 392 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: America's weakest point right now. UH. And it's the first 393 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: thing that I would say to our leadership, understand what 394 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: made America great in the past, whether it's the highway 395 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: system or going to the moon. The President John F. 396 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: Kennedy did not say we'll go to the moon next month. 397 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: He also didn't say we'll go to the moon next century. 398 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: He gave a decade timeline, and amazingly they made that timeline. 399 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: We need bold goals, transformative but they're not going to 400 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,959 Speaker 1: happen overnight, and they require planning, and they require the 401 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: best of our engineering, and they require the politicians to 402 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: get out of the way and say, well, help fund this. 403 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: But let's get serious thinking involved in what we really 404 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: want in our energy system, what we really want in 405 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: our transport, what information technology makes possible, because our cities 406 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: should look completely different. Let's in the next thirty years, 407 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: let's talk about the electrical grid, because there's a strong 408 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: argument to be made that it is a national security issue. 409 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: If our grid, forget that it's patchy and subject to 410 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: brownouts and blackouts, if it can be hacked. Do we 411 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: have a national security problem with the grid that is outdated, outmoded, 412 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: and vulnerable. Well, we certainly do, and I'm hardly the 413 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: cyber warfare expert, except that all those that I know say, 414 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: we have a problem. Everybody has a problem, and we 415 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: better not go into U into cyber war because there 416 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: won't be anything left. Because we depend on these information 417 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: networks and our systems depend on it. Of course we 418 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,479 Speaker 1: need to take defensive actions. We need to have work around. 419 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: The whole idea of the Internet originally was a resilient 420 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: system that could where computers could be connected even if 421 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: one part of the network goes down, so to do sustainability. 422 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: But I do think it would be much smarter if 423 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: we work together with the Chinese, work together with the 424 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: Europeans and said we want smart systems that can save 425 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: us all from climate change, in which we're in a 426 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: in a way also protecting ourselves mutually because we've designed 427 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: systems that we're not going to attack each other and 428 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: hack each other to death out of those systems. What 429 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: what about you mentioned bandwidth? What do we need to 430 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: do When I look around the world. You look at 431 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: parts of Europe, but especially East Asia, the bandwidth is 432 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: ten x hours and it's a quarter of the price. 433 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: Are we doing wrong? I don't know about you, but 434 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: I sit in my flat in New York, and I 435 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: can't get the interest, and it's it's dropping and it's 436 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: miserable service. And then of course we just had the 437 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: Attorney general file lawsuits saying that that the speed UH 438 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: that is advertised is phony. And I hope they called 439 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: me to testify it because this is ridiculous. But Americans 440 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: stopped wanting to pay for things because we were given 441 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: this line somehow that government can't make any of these investments, 442 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: so we shouldn't pay taxes. UH. We've ended up with 443 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: decrepit infrastructure. UH. In most of these other countries, these 444 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: are partly public at least, if not holy public, at 445 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: least they're regulated. That's the other thing we have is 446 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: don't regulate anything. Another crazy another crazy idea about just 447 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: minimum standards. You go to Europe. I could be in 448 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: a farm in the middle of nowhere and I get 449 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: far five bars on on the phone in New York 450 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: City with Verizon, which is someone described Verizon Wireless as 451 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: the tallest midget. They're all terrible. Verizon is the best. 452 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: You lose calls in the middle of Manhattan. It's it's astonishing. 453 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: Why forget regulation. Why isn't there at least minimum mandated 454 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: standards that if you want to use the public airways, 455 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: or if you want to be granted a temporary monopoly 456 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: to run run broadband, that you have to meet these standards. 457 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: Basically because these companies are more powerful than the politicians 458 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: who just stand at the side and take handouts from them. 459 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: And uh, and then we get the line of let 460 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: the companies run everything, and we end up with monopolies 461 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: all over the place that are under performing. So I 462 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: can fetch about about bad internet and mobile service today. 463 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: I could not make a phone call for several minutes 464 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: this morning in New York. I just could not. It's shocking. 465 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: We have been speaking with Professor Jeffrey Sachs of Columbia University, 466 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: author most recently of Building the New American Economy. Be 467 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: sure and check out my daily column on Bloomberg View 468 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: dot com. You can follow me on Twitter at Rid Halts. 469 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us 470 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. I'm Barry Ridhults. 471 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. 472 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: If you're having a business dispute, the process can be 473 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: slow and drawn out, especially if you rely on litigation 474 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: in the courts, you can wait for years before your 475 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: case is resolved, and the longer your case proceeds, the 476 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: more your case can cost. Not with the American Arbitration Associate. 477 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: Creation arbitration or mediation with the American Arbitration Association is faster. 478 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: In fact, nearly of our cases settle prior to hearings. 479 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: A d r dot org resolve faster. Welcome to the podcast. 480 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Professor sax Well. I honestly don't 481 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: know what to call you. You don't seem like a 482 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: Jeffrey to me. I am I have always been jeff 483 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: Jeffrey professor, so um, thank you for doing this. This 484 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: is really fascinating stuff. We've been talking um within my 485 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: office about the sustainability issues and E s G questions, 486 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: and the old argument was, listen, investing is hard enough. 487 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: Put your money to work, don't set any disadvantages to yourself, 488 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: and at the other end of the tunnel, take your 489 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: profits and deploy it to whatever entities you think support 490 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: your values. That isn't the case anymore. There isn't a 491 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: disadvantage investing annably, and some studies have suggested that UH 492 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: companies with broad women representation in the boardroom do better 493 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: than the average company. Companies with a more diverse workplace, 494 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: Companies that have social responsibility for whatever reason, maybe it 495 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: means that they've checked off all their other boxes and 496 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: this is the last thing, or they don't have liability 497 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: for giant oil spills and the like. What do you 498 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: look at when you when you think about sustainable investment. 499 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: I think right now, if you look at the divestment campaign, 500 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: for example, on fossil fuels, if more University and Downward 501 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: said heated that call five years ago, they would have 502 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: saved a lot of money. Because in the interim there's 503 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: been a sharp fall of oil prices, and for a 504 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: reason that's now understood to be a long term decline, 505 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: which is that we really are shifting from the use 506 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: of drew carbons to renewable energy. Over time, it's become 507 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: cost competitive. As I talked to executives in major oil companies, 508 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: they say, we're not undertaking any more projects were the 509 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: marginal cost is more than forty of barrel. Really yes, 510 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: and it may be below that because they say, we 511 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: know that there's a huge backstop in the Middle East 512 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: and we don't want to get caught in that overhang 513 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: of massive amounts of reserves when we know that a 514 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: lot of reserves are going to have to be stranded 515 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 1: in the long term. So why should we be investing 516 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: at sixties seventy eight dollars marginal cost and coal is 517 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: the same way. Yes, that was a campaign that started 518 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: for pollution and climate control, but if you had heated it, 519 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: you would have avoided investing in bankrupt companies they made, 520 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: They took on a lot of debt, They did a 521 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: lot of bad mergers and acquisitions. We don't need killed itself. 522 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't destroyed by regulations. Well, cole is going to 523 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: be phased out over time, even though there's a lot 524 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: of it. It's either so dirty or so carbon intensive 525 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: that investors are not going to invest in new coal 526 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: fire power plants and regulators are not going to allow 527 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: them to be built. You watch the line of coal 528 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: plants going from the upper left to the lower right 529 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: and natural gas plants, which is still of all the 530 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 1: carbon based fuels, the cleanest, at least on the emission ends. 531 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: There are questions about how much methane natural gas releases 532 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: when you're when you're drilling it, but those two lines 533 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: are have passed each other. We used to be majority 534 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: coal generation for electricity, and I think that recently it's 535 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: either about to cross or recently crossed, and we will 536 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: be generating the majority of our electricity from natural gas 537 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: and coal is going to be a footnote eventually. I 538 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: think that's right. But I would say that the next 539 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 1: crossing lines will be gas and renewables, because the gas 540 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: is going to be phased out and the renewables are 541 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: really going to be phased in. And there are a 542 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: lot of breakthroughs, especially offshore wind that's going to come 543 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: very soon. And I think the integration of electric vehicles 544 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: and intermittent renewable energy is going to be a very 545 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: big thing as well, because we're going to have fleets 546 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: of tens of millions of battery battery smart batteries around 547 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: that carry us from place to place, but also our 548 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: balancers of the grid. And so once we start with 549 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: the electrification of personal mobility, that also is going to 550 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: accelerate dramatically the shift to basically intermittent renewable energy. The 551 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: whole genius of Tesla having the auto manufacturer of the 552 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: battery plant and the solar plant in one is right now. 553 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: Your TESLA emissions depend on where you live. If you're 554 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: in the Northwest, well your emissions are zero because it's hydrocarbon. 555 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: If it's part of the Midwest and the Northeast, well 556 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: then your test is emitting coal emissions. And in much 557 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: of the rest of the country it's natural gas. So 558 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: having an end to ends the while while the sun 559 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 1: is shining, you're storing energy in a battery, and at 560 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: night you're charging the car up with essentially solar means 561 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: that is truly a zero emissions vehicle. And Elan Elon 562 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: Musk is telling his friends and he's told me that 563 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: he's got the President Trump's ear, and President Trump's interested 564 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: in building out solar. We'll see, boy, I hope Ellen 565 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: has the president's ear. He's putting some effort into it 566 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 1: because that would be a breakthrough that would enable us 567 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: to get behind a Trump infrastructure plan if it's really 568 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: sustainable infrastruct When when you look at certain companies that 569 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: you wouldn't think of his green or cutting edge or 570 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: left of center. In many states, Walmart is the single 571 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: biggest producer of solar energy. They have these giant facilities, 572 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: warehouses and stores, mostly below the Mason Dixon line filled 573 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: with these huge flat roofs. Why wouldn't you go solar? 574 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: And the cost now is is really competitive. We're seeing 575 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: a lot of surprises. As as I mentioned, we have 576 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,240 Speaker 1: a stat Oil becoming a great champion of offshore wind 577 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 1: and other companies. I know a lot of the European 578 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: oil companies are going in that direction as well. I wish, frankly, 579 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: in our own country we'd see Chevron, Exxon Mobile, the 580 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: coke industries also realizing get out of the twentie century, 581 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: at least diversify, get into the century. Come on, guys, 582 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: what's amazing is I was in Berlin not too long ago, 583 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: and when you're flying into Germany and you look down Um, 584 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: which I always love to do when I when I 585 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: traveled to um different parts of the world, and I'm 586 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: astonished at the amount of it's a farm and then 587 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: a wind farm, and then a cattle farm and then 588 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 1: a wind For you fly into Frankfurt, or you fly 589 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: into Berlin and half the countryside are these giant wind farms. 590 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,959 Speaker 1: I've never seen that. Rarely. Occasionally you'll see a wind 591 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: farm here or there. Same thing in Italy, parts of 592 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: the coast. You see all these winds on lands on 593 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 1: top of these big cliffs. We are way way behind 594 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: when it comes to wind and g E is a 595 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: huge manufacturer of wind turbines. Yeah. I think here we're 596 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:35,280 Speaker 1: stuck in the lobby and basically the Chamber of Commerce 597 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: and the American Petroleum Institute, the Koch Brothers and x 598 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: On Mobile and Chevron have really held the United States 599 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: back from the twenty one century so far. And it's 600 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,399 Speaker 1: a small number of very powerful actors, but a lot 601 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: of companies know that that's the past, not the future. 602 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: It just seems that they want to squeeze out one 603 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: last bit of of funding um UH from hydrocarbons. But 604 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: what worries me is if we start putting billions and 605 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: billions more into new pipelines and so forth, that's just 606 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: money down the drain. That's not federal money though. Isn't 607 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: that paid for by um I was on the impression 608 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: that those pipelines are funded private sector. Well, some of 609 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: it will just be private bankruptcies. Well, better listen, you 610 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,359 Speaker 1: know what, you sometimes have to make your bed and 611 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: if you take the loss, hopefully when there's a spill 612 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: or some you know, third party externality. It shouldn't be 613 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: thrown off onto onto those third parties. Those externalities should 614 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,399 Speaker 1: stay with the investors and not go to the tax 615 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: That's correct. I just hope that wall streets, you know. 616 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: I think they should be smart enough not to underwrite 617 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: this kind of junk because these are just bad investments. 618 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: So that's interesting when when we look around at the 619 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: rest of the sustainability quest, jen's what else is driving 620 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: the technology? What is driving the investment um Further, is 621 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 1: it simply what what Professor mere Stateman said. There's a 622 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: utilitarian function of investing, and then there's an expressive emotional 623 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 1: side of investing. Is it merely people wanting to feel 624 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: good about their investments or is there a credible thesis 625 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: that this is the future? I think the only one 626 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: that really makes a difference in the end is the 627 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: latter that this is what our future should look like. 628 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: And that takes people moving beyond their very narrow world 629 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,280 Speaker 1: of comfort and trying to understand the science of climate 630 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 1: change or the future of technology. And if they do, 631 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,800 Speaker 1: we're going to get to the right place much faster 632 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: than people imagine right now. It's interesting that a lot 633 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: of the Republican grandees in the last few days and 634 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,439 Speaker 1: said we need a carbon tax. That was stunning. Yeah, 635 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: they've been finding that for how long? That exactly? And 636 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: that was very straightforward. And some of the leading members 637 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 1: and thinkers of the party and they're breaking the taboo. 638 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: But when I that's really a Republican if you think 639 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: about it, it's a market based solution to an issue 640 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: of climate change. You would think that would be right 641 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: in their wheelhouse. When you talk to a member of Congress, 642 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: especially Republican member, there's just one thing that's on their 643 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: mind election Koche brothers. And they're they're afraid either they're 644 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 1: getting the funding from them or they're afraid of the 645 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: Koch brothers financing an opponent in the next primary that 646 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: they've been Um, I forgot the term where where they 647 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: get primaried and uh, someone with who's been in Congress 648 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: for four or eight terms loses because someone out flanks 649 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: him to the right with a lot of money. Used 650 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: to be they were sort of flaky candid dates. Now 651 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: they're well funded, depocketed, uh candidate, that's the story. And 652 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 1: those two who have a lot of wealth and are 653 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,359 Speaker 1: ready to spend it have oil interests, and if they 654 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: instead had wind interests, believe me, we'd have the fastest 655 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,800 Speaker 1: build up of wind power in any country in world history. 656 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 1: One would think strictly from a diversification perspective. You don't 657 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,879 Speaker 1: want all your your chickens in one basket. You want 658 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,360 Speaker 1: to be diversified. Look, even Saudi a Ramco is diverse, right, 659 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: even they are building solar energy and the biggest oil 660 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: reserves in the world. Exactly is that not a giant hint? 661 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: All right, let me switch a little bit and talk 662 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: about UM. You you had ref referenced earlier, the transportation 663 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: grid UM and smart factors with that, give us a 664 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 1: little details what what you're referencing with that, because what 665 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: I think of as smart grid, I'm not sure if 666 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the same thing you are. First in 667 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: the cities, and you know, I'm a proud New Yorker 668 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,399 Speaker 1: that owns zero automobiles, and I love it. I love 669 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,360 Speaker 1: the fact that we can walk, take the subway, have 670 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: public transport, or if if I need to, can call 671 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 1: an uber, I can share the vehicle, hail a taxi. 672 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 1: This is the way to go in general, which is 673 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 1: that I think car ownership is really going to plummet 674 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: and sharing the vehicles, which is of course much more 675 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: effective use of the capital. It's not just sitting of 676 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 1: the time in the parking lot, it's on the road. 677 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: That's going to come to be the predominant way that 678 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: we use vehicles. If you, if I look at the Uber, 679 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: I think it's their ten or their twenty year plan. 680 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:53,359 Speaker 1: They're anticipating nobody owning cars and they have a multimillion 681 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: car fleet of self driving vehicles. This is exactly right. 682 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: And what they're doing in Pittsburgh with Carnegie Mellon is 683 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,839 Speaker 1: absolutely the way that things are going to go, which 684 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 1: is get the driver out of there, redesign, reconfigure our 685 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: traffic flows so that self driving vehicles are acceptable and 686 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: are safe. Uh And I think we're pretty close to 687 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 1: doing that as well. And um this is going to 688 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: be tremendous saving not only of carbon emissions, but of 689 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 1: money per se of the cost of vehicles. Because the 690 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: automobile was was the biggest ticket item for households, perhaps 691 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,360 Speaker 1: other than their residents. Um. And it's not going to 692 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: be that way in the future. And young people don't 693 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: want to own cars anymore. And they're right, because we 694 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 1: should be in a way that they share when they 695 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 1: need them. And that's that I only have you for 696 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,839 Speaker 1: a few minutes longer. So before I we run out 697 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: of time, I want to jump to my my favorite 698 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: questions that I ask all my guests. Um so you undergrad? 699 00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: You were you were Harvard undergrad, Harvard master's, Harvard doctorate? 700 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,279 Speaker 1: Is it right? That's it? So let's let's talk a 701 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 1: little bit about your mentors. Who who your mentors? Uh? 702 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 1: My advisor was Marty Feldstein, and you could do us. 703 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 1: I had had very good education. Uh. And when you're 704 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: at Harvard, very lucky. You go up and down the U. 705 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,400 Speaker 1: The mass have to go to m I t so 706 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 1: Paul Samuelson and Robert Solo and Frankolman Digliani and other 707 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,680 Speaker 1: Nobel laureates were there. And at Harvard I was able 708 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:39,320 Speaker 1: to meet the giants like Simon Kuznets, who basically invented 709 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:44,880 Speaker 1: the National income accounts and development economics. Alexander Gershenkrone, one 710 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,359 Speaker 1: of the greatest historians of world economy. And you know, 711 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: as I have aged, I appreciate all those greats more 712 00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 1: and more because they they imbued a certain ideas that 713 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,400 Speaker 1: at the time you know, maybe weren't the fanciest theories, 714 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:09,440 Speaker 1: but we're the kind of deep understanding of what is 715 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: this field and what does it mean to understand an 716 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: economy that decades later? Really, for me was the greatest 717 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: part of this education. And um, let's talk a little 718 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,800 Speaker 1: bit about books. We we we referenced a few briefly. 719 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 1: What are some of your favorite books? What what are 720 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: you reading now and and what sort of books do 721 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: you enjoy? If you saw my house or my office, 722 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,960 Speaker 1: I have about I think it's about fifteen thousand volumes. 723 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 1: So I my wife says, I'm just transferring Barnes and 724 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: Noble volume by volume, but the house. I love books. 725 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,720 Speaker 1: I'm generally reading ten or fifteen books at a time, 726 00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,360 Speaker 1: meaning that I read a few pages of one few pages. 727 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 1: I love history, I love reading about technology, I love philosophy. 728 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,200 Speaker 1: I'm reading a lot of neuroscience these days, because basically 729 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 1: we're at the cutting edge of knowledge, and a book 730 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,200 Speaker 1: is the way to join someone who really knows what 731 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 1: they're doing, uh, into peering into the future. So I 732 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:18,840 Speaker 1: just have a great time in trying to understand where 733 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: we're heading by reading a great book that's at the 734 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 1: cutting edge. The phrase I heard recently is deep generalist, 735 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,879 Speaker 1: which seems like a contradiction in terms, but really that's 736 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,600 Speaker 1: what you're describing. I love it. It's very frustrating because 737 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,640 Speaker 1: the ripples of knowledge are much faster than you can 738 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,920 Speaker 1: keep up with them, but I keep pretending to try. So. 739 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,120 Speaker 1: So we mentioned earlier the box how the shipping container 740 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 1: made the world smaller and the economy bigger. I have 741 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: to ask you about a book that is so right 742 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 1: in your sweet spot? Did you ever read Windfall, The 743 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 1: Booming Business of Global Warming by Mackenzie Funk. No, it's 744 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,440 Speaker 1: I highly reckon, very good because said basically starts with 745 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,919 Speaker 1: the theme this isn't a debate on global warming. This 746 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,480 Speaker 1: is let's follow them, follow the money and see what's happening. Well, 747 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,520 Speaker 1: that is absolutely the right approach, and that's why I 748 00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,640 Speaker 1: said it's so right in your sweet spot. And then 749 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 1: a previous guest was a run Sundarajan n y you 750 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,160 Speaker 1: when he wrote a book The Sharing Economy, The End 751 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: of Employment and the Rise of crowd. I've read that one, 752 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,040 Speaker 1: so I found that to be a fascinating conversation. Right, 753 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 1: what you're talking about, uber and left? Tell me give 754 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,200 Speaker 1: me a couple of books that you're reading currently that 755 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:39,160 Speaker 1: you're really enjoying. I'm rereading Aristotle, so I would encourage 756 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,719 Speaker 1: everybody to read the Nicomackian Ethics. You know, it's very 757 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,440 Speaker 1: It's true, it's two thousand, three hundred years old, but 758 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,680 Speaker 1: it deserves to be on the best seller list. Basically, 759 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:55,280 Speaker 1: it is Aristotle's idea about what is a virtuous life 760 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,839 Speaker 1: and how can we have a virtuous society? And I 761 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 1: think that that is a pretty darren good vision that 762 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 1: has withstood the test of twenty three centuries. Funny you 763 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,280 Speaker 1: said that I'm reading Meditations, But there you go, markets 764 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,799 Speaker 1: really and it's one of those things that you're not 765 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,400 Speaker 1: going to sit down and plow through it on a beach, 766 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 1: but you pick it up, you read five or ten 767 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,320 Speaker 1: pages and you have to stop and say, that's really interesting, 768 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 1: and it's really wonderful because you know, the ancient Greeks, 769 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,480 Speaker 1: this was the first time they were thinking the biggest thoughts, 770 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: and some of them got such deep truth that they 771 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:35,239 Speaker 1: got almost too. But it's thousands of years old, and 772 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,799 Speaker 1: it shows you that a great book, the Meditation Um 773 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 1: give me one more, by the way, the single biggest 774 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,799 Speaker 1: email request I get from listeners is hey, get me 775 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,600 Speaker 1: a few book recommendations from your um, your guests, they're 776 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,400 Speaker 1: also accomplished, they're also knowledgeable. I love to rely on 777 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,480 Speaker 1: on on those sorts of folks recommendations. So I hope 778 00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,520 Speaker 1: it's not too cheeky to say, please have a look 779 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,360 Speaker 1: at my book. It's really short. Uh So I would say, 780 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:06,800 Speaker 1: I haven't finished this, but I read two of your books, 781 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,439 Speaker 1: and I'm trying to remember You've written so many it's 782 00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 1: tough to keep all the titles straight. Um. The sustainability 783 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,920 Speaker 1: book from OH five, Well, the Age of Sustainable Development 784 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: is a rice of civilizations. Civilization good. That's the one 785 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,759 Speaker 1: that I think is really fascinating because you were a 786 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,759 Speaker 1: bit ahead of the curve laying out a lot of 787 00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,640 Speaker 1: the problems that we face today. Well, I had watched 788 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,560 Speaker 1: the problems build. I travel a lot, so I see 789 00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 1: other countries that are working better than ours, and I'm 790 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,480 Speaker 1: trying to share some of some of that what I'm 791 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,040 Speaker 1: seeing as well. So let's talk about what happens next. 792 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:50,240 Speaker 1: We we've discussed the rise of popular populism around the world. 793 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,680 Speaker 1: It's not just a US phenomena. Uh, it's it's France, 794 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:59,239 Speaker 1: it's Italy, it's not only Inland but possibly Germany. What 795 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,720 Speaker 1: is the next political shift that's that's going to take place. 796 00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,280 Speaker 1: We're really at a knife edge right now because if 797 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:13,840 Speaker 1: the world becomes a battle of strongman uh and uh, 798 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,480 Speaker 1: it could go that way. It's really dangerous if, on 799 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,879 Speaker 1: the other hand, people who are really doing serious and 800 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,560 Speaker 1: leading things in the world tell the Donald Trump's and 801 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,440 Speaker 1: others cool it. We don't want to blow apart the 802 00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 1: world economy, we don't want to start new wars. We 803 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:35,920 Speaker 1: want to actually solve problems. Then we can absolutely go 804 00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,280 Speaker 1: in in the good direction. And I think that we're 805 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:41,959 Speaker 1: at a shaky moment right now. We don't know which 806 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,960 Speaker 1: way it's going. But we've seen just in the last 807 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:51,960 Speaker 1: few days that some of the really irresponsible initial actions 808 00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: of Trump are being walked back. For example, Trump came in, 809 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,920 Speaker 1: tried to stir up things with China, took the phone 810 00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,279 Speaker 1: call with Taiwan, said one China policies up for grabs. 811 00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,360 Speaker 1: Yesterday in his call with the president Shi Jigping, he 812 00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,800 Speaker 1: said no, no, no, we subscribe to the one China policy. 813 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,440 Speaker 1: I say, thanks God. How much of this is just 814 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,600 Speaker 1: a guy who's never held elected office, never been really 815 00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,120 Speaker 1: involved with government. It's gonna take a while. I'm I'm 816 00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,279 Speaker 1: being given the benefit of the doubt. Isn't it gonna 817 00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 1: take a while for him to kind of get his 818 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,399 Speaker 1: legs under him and figure out, Hey, how do these 819 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,279 Speaker 1: levers of power actually work? Well? You know, I think 820 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,600 Speaker 1: the most worrisome thing is these are complicated issues. These 821 00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:41,040 Speaker 1: are not Twitter susceptible issues. And either he gets serious 822 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,960 Speaker 1: or we're in trouble. You noticed that yesterday he or 823 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,200 Speaker 1: a few days ago, he slammed Nordstrom for dropping his 824 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 1: daughter's line, and Nordstrom stock rose five percent. So maybe 825 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,080 Speaker 1: there's a half life on the bully pulpit of trying 826 00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,959 Speaker 1: to scare CEOs of companies by using Twitter. I think 827 00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:05,480 Speaker 1: one thing in our world is everything so fast that 828 00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:10,040 Speaker 1: and everything ages so quickly that maybe the Twitter play 829 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,760 Speaker 1: is over. Today the Financial Times has run a story 830 00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: saying that they've looked at all the tweets against businesses 831 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,920 Speaker 1: and there really is no impact on shares. There's a 832 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,719 Speaker 1: little wobble and then it just goes exactly And I think, 833 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,880 Speaker 1: you know, maybe everyone's saying, Okay, that's Donald in the 834 00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:33,640 Speaker 1: middle of the night. Uh, and that's the old But 835 00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:37,160 Speaker 1: maybe that's already passe. That's the old stuff. And if 836 00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,120 Speaker 1: that is, that would be good, because that is no 837 00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,480 Speaker 1: way to run the US government. My suspicion is there 838 00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,360 Speaker 1: are certain leaders who are very detail oriented and others 839 00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,960 Speaker 1: who just want to plant a flag of victory and 840 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:53,680 Speaker 1: let others fill in um the details. My suspicion the 841 00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,920 Speaker 1: tax reform as a perfect example. I suspect he wants 842 00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,279 Speaker 1: a victory, doesn't matter what the victor is, and a 843 00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,120 Speaker 1: lot of what he's gonna do is just going to 844 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,840 Speaker 1: defer to people like Paul Ryan and say, give me 845 00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,839 Speaker 1: some corporate tax reform, get it done. Yeah, I win, 846 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,560 Speaker 1: and move on to the next. But there I think 847 00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:16,239 Speaker 1: there's really one huge distinction that I would emphasize, which 848 00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:21,280 Speaker 1: is that we've had for years now government by lobby 849 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,319 Speaker 1: behind closed doors in Washington. That's was true of the 850 00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:29,480 Speaker 1: Obama administration, it was true of of Bush before him. 851 00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 1: That kind of governance also does not work. What we 852 00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,719 Speaker 1: need actually has some expertise right now. We need the engineers, 853 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,920 Speaker 1: we need the technologists, We need people who are going 854 00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,799 Speaker 1: to look at the budget not from a partisan point 855 00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:46,799 Speaker 1: of view, but from a twenty year point of view, 856 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:51,760 Speaker 1: and we don't have that yet. And you know, maybe 857 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,120 Speaker 1: it's better than a tweet to have a Congress do it, 858 00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,680 Speaker 1: but it's not good enough to have the lobbyists write 859 00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:04,840 Speaker 1: our legislation. We need serious national deliberation right now. It 860 00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,200 Speaker 1: has to be in the open. And instead of having 861 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:16,759 Speaker 1: basically illiterate or scientifically illiterate politicians opine about things like 862 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,040 Speaker 1: climate change, we've got a nation of the world's top 863 00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:23,279 Speaker 1: scientists and engineers, and they're the ones that should be 864 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,200 Speaker 1: empowered right now to be helping to give solutions and 865 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:32,719 Speaker 1: away forward. Let me ask you a question that that 866 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,360 Speaker 1: responds to that, what do you make of this sort 867 00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:44,880 Speaker 1: of drumbeat against expertise? And I don't mean just climate change, 868 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:51,840 Speaker 1: but we've seen a sort of uh conflation between pundits 869 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:59,360 Speaker 1: and talking heads and actual engineers, technologists, scientists. It looks 870 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:04,000 Speaker 1: like we're lumping together people who really don't know but 871 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,560 Speaker 1: are happy to talk about it with people who do 872 00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,120 Speaker 1: know and may not be talking about it as much 873 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,919 Speaker 1: as they should. I talked about climate change a few 874 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,400 Speaker 1: days ago in a interview and then of course got 875 00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:20,920 Speaker 1: to I rate barage of emails, and so I answered 876 00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:25,040 Speaker 1: one of them, and somebody may charge as you ignorant guy, 877 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,080 Speaker 1: don't you know that so and so is true of 878 00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,600 Speaker 1: some completely false thing? And I wrote back, I said, oh, 879 00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,040 Speaker 1: that's interesting. Can you give me a citation for that? 880 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:39,360 Speaker 1: The greatest response? And he wrote back immediately with the website. 881 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,920 Speaker 1: I looked at the website. It was actually quite interesting. 882 00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:48,000 Speaker 1: It was a real website, completely phony, and then it's 883 00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:52,800 Speaker 1: cited an institute in California, so I of course never 884 00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,400 Speaker 1: heard of it. I googled it. It doesn't exist. So 885 00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,400 Speaker 1: I wrote back to the guy. I said, can you 886 00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,480 Speaker 1: give me the address of this doesn't exist? There were 887 00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:03,320 Speaker 1: footnotes and if you followed the footnote, it was too 888 00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:08,680 Speaker 1: absolutely non existent journals. So this is it is a 889 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:13,040 Speaker 1: problem because it's like artificial intelligence. It's an alternative world. 890 00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,920 Speaker 1: People people live in it and they're bombarded by it. 891 00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:20,920 Speaker 1: And I said to the guy finally in frustration, because 892 00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,720 Speaker 1: I was trying being very polite and back and forth, 893 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,720 Speaker 1: and it was Dr Jeffrey Sachs, you have better things 894 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,360 Speaker 1: to do with your time, because on behalf of humanity 895 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:33,680 Speaker 1: than talking to one bubbles. I'm trying to understand, though, 896 00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,120 Speaker 1: and and so I said to him, finally, why don't 897 00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:39,480 Speaker 1: you go to a local unit, your local college or university, 898 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,320 Speaker 1: He said, I tried that they're filled with the same nonsense. 899 00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:46,640 Speaker 1: What are you gonna do? Well? You know, there have 900 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,640 Speaker 1: been studies that have shown that certain people live in 901 00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:53,480 Speaker 1: a news bubble that's really not news. And it's not 902 00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:59,640 Speaker 1: just that they're uninformed. It's worse, they're misinformed and democracy 903 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,000 Speaker 1: ac choirs and informed electorate. And that seems to be 904 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,320 Speaker 1: a big problem. Especially we live in a time of 905 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:14,880 Speaker 1: expert systems, of super sophisticated transport, communications, of power generation. 906 00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,080 Speaker 1: We have seven point five billion people on the planet 907 00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,680 Speaker 1: that need to be fed to safe water, public health 908 00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:26,600 Speaker 1: every day. That requires tremendous knowledge and expertise. And if 909 00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:32,160 Speaker 1: we absolutely close off to the expertise were doomed, there's 910 00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:35,200 Speaker 1: no way we survived that. So this is really a 911 00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:37,800 Speaker 1: major thing. But our government is out of that business 912 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,160 Speaker 1: because it's been lobbyist seven And I'm not just talking 913 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,640 Speaker 1: about right now. I'm talking about during the Obama period, 914 00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,240 Speaker 1: and I'm talking about this is a multi decade problem 915 00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,920 Speaker 1: and we have to get out of it quickly. And 916 00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:53,040 Speaker 1: let me get to my um last few and favorite questions. So, 917 00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,840 Speaker 1: when you're not at work, what do you do to relax? 918 00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,120 Speaker 1: What do you do to kick back? I'm at work, 919 00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,560 Speaker 1: so I was gonna ask, uh, what what do you 920 01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,560 Speaker 1: do to exercise? What do you do to stay mentally 921 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,480 Speaker 1: or physically fit? Another reader question, by the way, Well, 922 01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,280 Speaker 1: I mean New York is the perfect place for that 923 01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:14,640 Speaker 1: because I walk, I walk, I walk, and I love 924 01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,520 Speaker 1: it since I got the Fitbit. People don't believe me. 925 01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:21,440 Speaker 1: I'm doing fifteen steps a day and it's it's I 926 01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,200 Speaker 1: walk from here down to my office. It's thirty blocks 927 01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,280 Speaker 1: that that's what that is. So you work with a 928 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,960 Speaker 1: lot of students, a lot of millennials. If someone came 929 01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,240 Speaker 1: to you and said, I'm interested in a career as 930 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,640 Speaker 1: becoming an economist, what sort of advice would you would 931 01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,360 Speaker 1: you give them? I always say, whatever they're interested in, 932 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,320 Speaker 1: stay with your interests, don't do it for the money, 933 01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:45,320 Speaker 1: Remember why you did it, and be serious because you'll 934 01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:48,600 Speaker 1: you'll love it in the end. So, whether it's public health, 935 01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:53,000 Speaker 1: whether it's engineering, whether it's business, there's enough for people 936 01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,280 Speaker 1: to enjoy their lives. But the worst reason is, oh, 937 01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:58,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to go make money. I know it's awful, 938 01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:01,720 Speaker 1: and then I'll do something later that's that's a terrible mistake. 939 01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,560 Speaker 1: And my final, uh and favorite question, what is it 940 01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:09,160 Speaker 1: that you know about the world of macro economics today 941 01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:14,200 Speaker 1: that you wish you knew thirty years ago? Everything? Really? No? 942 01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,760 Speaker 1: I mean I I knew a bit then, but God, 943 01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,520 Speaker 1: I've been on a learning curve and it's wonderful and 944 01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:24,240 Speaker 1: I feel that that is so much fun. How to 945 01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:30,800 Speaker 1: put together the macro economics with culture, society, climate. It's 946 01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:34,160 Speaker 1: the interconnectedness which has really grown on me over over 947 01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:38,000 Speaker 1: the decades through the real life, that our problems don't 948 01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:42,040 Speaker 1: come packaged in narrow packages. They come as broad as 949 01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:45,320 Speaker 1: the world is, and so we better understand those interconnections. 950 01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:49,320 Speaker 1: We have been speaking with Professor Jeffrey Sachs of Columbia University. 951 01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,960 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and look up 952 01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,800 Speaker 1: an inch or down an inch on Apple iTunes and 953 01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,640 Speaker 1: you could see any of the other hundred and thirty 954 01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,800 Speaker 1: two or so such conversation sans. I would be remiss 955 01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,800 Speaker 1: if I did not think. My recording engineer, Medina Taylor 956 01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:10,520 Speaker 1: Riggs is our booker. Mike Batnick is our director of research. 957 01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,960 Speaker 1: We love your comment, suggestions and feedback. Please write to 958 01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:19,320 Speaker 1: us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. I'm 959 01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:22,760 Speaker 1: Barry Hults. You've been listening to Masters in Business on 960 01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. Masters in Business is brought to you by 961 01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:30,920 Speaker 1: the American Arbitration Association. Business disputes are inevitable, resolve faster 962 01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:35,360 Speaker 1: with the American Arbitration Association, the global leader in alternative 963 01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:39,400 Speaker 1: dispute resolution for over ninety years. Learn more at a 964 01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:40,880 Speaker 1: d R dot org