WEBVTT - Dropping Out with Leigh Abramson + Karen Erlichman 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:01.760 My name is Alex, and I have not been in 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:10.000 a classroom since ninth grade. No, no, alright, No, it 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:19.760 will be alright forever. No, we are alright, No, will 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:26.279 be alright forever. I have two parents who are very 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:30.120 very for chasing your dreams. You know. My mom did 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:33.200 a couple of years of college, ultimately met my dad, 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.160 and my dad kind of started working while my mom 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.160 raised us as as children. My dad, on the other hand, 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.879 actually dropped out of high school and helped support his 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:45.599 own family, like his parents and his brothers and sisters 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.080 by working for his father's company and uh and eventually 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.200 got a g e. D. And became a very successful 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.440 real estate agent. If you've listened to my other episodes 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:56.400 of the podcast, you'll hear more about that story. But 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:58.560 I want to focus on the education part because what 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:02.200 happened with me is I always liked learning. I think 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:04.319 learning is something that I've always loved, and it's something 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.520 that I'm very very passionate about. But I loved learning 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:09.760 about the things I liked more than the things I 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.640 didn't like. And my parents very much so picked up 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:16.240 on that towards seventh and eighth grade when they realized 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.039 I was really focusing all of my time on learning 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.800 about music theory and how to play certain chords and 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:26.040 and structure and songwriting. And I would focus so much 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:30.520 time the way that a doctor would focus on medical information, 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.840 or like a lawyer would focus on studying for the bar. 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.880 I was studying for the musical bar. I guess and uh. 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.280 And halfway through ninth grade, my parents, you know, we 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.920 had decided to move to Los Angeles and chase my 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:48.120 dream of being a musician, and I transitioned from regular 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.760 classroom traditional school I don't know if that's what it's called, 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:57.480 into online school, which was not by any means successful 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.560 for me. I I'm gonna call my mom out in 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:03.200 a good way. She was so good about logging in 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.320 for me so that my hours were all right. I know, Hey, 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.040 I'm really sorry pre Mavera online high school. This is 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.720 the truth. My parents were so good about helping me 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.280 be successful, but ultimately I failed a lot of those classes, 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.200 not because I wasn't testing properly, but because I just 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.120 wasn't showing up or doing any of the assignments. So 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.400 by the time that I actually had stopped going to school, 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:29.360 it was a very smooth transition into working full time 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.359 in the music industry, and my dad kind of embedded 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.280 in my brain this idea of you can make it happen, 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.040 you know, mentality, you have to just put in the work, 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.080 and and seeing him as a firsthand example of that 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.200 was always very easy for me to look at and 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:46.640 be like, oh, yeah, my dad's totally right because he 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.400 did it, you know. That was kind of my mindset 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.480 with everything. And so here I am ninth grade kind 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.519 of looking for a new way to have a career 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.600 without having a high school diploma, and then came my 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:02.120 way something that's very very special in California called the Chessie. 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.880 It is basically like the g E D on steroids, 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.640 but instead of passing and getting like whatever the g 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.280 e D Certificate is, you actually get like a diploma 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.840 equivalent certificate. So if I wanted to, I could go 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.840 to a university afterwards. And my parents always wanting me 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.799 to have you know, that education under my belt. They 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:23.120 were super supportive of that, and my fifteen to sixteen 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:27.600 year old girlfriend, Katie Vincent's mom actually paid for like 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:29.880 the books for me to study and like all of 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.519 that stuff. So shout out Genea Vincent, big love. You 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:34.880 help me get my diploma, shouts Mom and Dad. I 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:36.839 feel like I'm winning a Grammy, but I only got 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:41.400 like almost diploma, so uh, you know, and then I 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:43.640 at least for me, if you're a fan of me, 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:45.440 you kind of know where that story goes. I started 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.200 posting on social media and doing what I love and 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:52.120 chasing it relentlessly and not stopping that work, and I 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.600 found myself to a place where I'm a professional in 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.320 my field of work if I even want to call 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.040 it that. I just like making music for fun and 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:01.000 it pays my bills. Like that's where I am. And 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.240 so I am now almost ten years deep in my profession, 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.040 with all of the experience that I got to have 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.920 and being treated as an adult since I was fifteen, 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.520 and and now feeling like I've I'm very deeply rooted 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:15.560 into something that I truly love to do, and I 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.200 got to focus all that time. But I would be 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.960 remiss if I didn't say that sometimes I wish I was, 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.280 you know, getting drunk at prom off of like some 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:28.520 weird mixture of everybody's parents alcohol. Or if I said 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:30.960 I didn't get to go to college parties or or 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.480 spring breaks, or playing high school basketball, all of those things. 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:36.679 I do think about those things, and it kind of 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.560 all of the positives that came out of me dropping 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:41.680 out and chasing my dreams. It comes with a lot 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:43.280 of pros and it comes with a lot of cons. 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.440 I also look back at, you know, a lot of 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.119 people who ask me that question because I'm open about 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.640 my history with schooling, and they say, well, should I 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:53.000 go to school? Should I not go to school? And 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.560 I've always said, you know, other people as advice, don't 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:59.560 take me as the example. And if you don't necessarily 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:01.880 have a plan, and if you don't necessarily know, I've 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.320 always said you should go to school, you should go 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.400 to college. But there's also now so many factors that 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:10.599 I never put into my brain, you know, in terms 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.960 of student loans and and the cost of being of 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.040 going to school, and the percentage of people who actually 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:19.920 do the job that they went to school for, and 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.039 and a lot of people, especially my friends, you know, 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.799 they got their communications degree and it didn't do anything 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.640 for them for their job that they're at now. It's 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:30.040 really put it into perspective. So that got me thinking, 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.880 is dropping out the right idea? Is not going to college. 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.960 The right idea is staying in school because your parents 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:38.960 want you to a good idea And if it is 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:44.400 or it isn't, why is that? No? What's up everybody? 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:46.880 It's alex Iona here. This is let's get into it 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.839 my podcast where we talk about a ton of different topics. 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.680 Really nothing is off the table at this point, and 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:54.960 we want to talk about something. It's not the sexiest 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:57.320 I'm not gonna lie, not the sexiest topic, but it's 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.480 very very important, especially today we're talking about edgecation and 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:04.000 how important it is to go to college and chase 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.560 your dreams and if those things don't go together, how 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.159 important it is to make the right decision on which 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.080 one you want to do. So. I have two very 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.720 very diverse guests here that have different paths that we 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.840 can talk about and have open conversations with. The first 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.479 being a freelance writer whose work has appeared in numerous 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:27.040 publications including The New York Times, The Atlantic, Real Simple More. 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:31.120 But She attended Penn Law before working several years in 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:33.680 big law and clerking in the Southern District of New York. 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.359 She's currently toiling away on a brand new novel, You 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.200 Guessed It it's about a law firm. Her name is 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.040 Lee McMullen Abramson. Lee, it's very nice to meet you. 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.920 I just want to know how are you. I'm good, 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:48.240 Thank you so much. It's great to be here. You 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:50.680 guys can't see this, but Lee's got on as she 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.320 She's told me it's her daughters. I really think it's hers, 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:58.000 and she's just like a closeted Frozen fanatic. They're Frozen 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:03.440 themed headphones. They're the cool things I've ever seen. I'm 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:05.640 very happy, and you can be honest here on this podcast. 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:07.560 We're open. We're open and honest. The first episode I 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.080 talked about losing my virginity, so it's like nothing's off 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.680 the table. If those are yours, just just be proud 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.960 about it, you know. I will say that I'm very 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.560 happy to be wearing them. Okay, I was glad they 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.120 were available to me and they feel good. I like that. 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.040 You've got a little bit, you know, a little bit 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.000 of ownership of those also with me. You guys know, 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.440 she's one of my closest friends and I asked her 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.160 pretty much for help on anything. Uh, Karen or like man. 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.280 She is my wisdom tree. She is my off the 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:37.280 clock therapist as I'm going to call you. It's my 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:39.640 new title for you, because I have so many questions 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.040 for you. Karen Orleckman, how are you? I am COVID 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.320 good today? Is COVID good? Baby? That's all we can 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:49.320 ask for these days. Well, we're talking about education and 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.640 both of you guys have very very different paths in 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:55.160 which you guys chased your ultimate dream or you guys 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:57.560 followed you know, the career path that led you to 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.800 where you are, and we're gonna dive super super deep 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.320 into that. First, Lee, you and I are going to 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.480 talk about Dropouts Handbook because you are very very experienced, 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.120 as we're gonna learn in helping people find out how 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.240 to follow their truest self, even if it kind of 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.440 diverges off of the path that they originally were taking. 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:17.400 And then Karen, you and I are going to talk 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.480 about what might have been the concept of well, if 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:22.440 I had done this, Even for me, I have these 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.720 thoughts all the time, talking about if I had stayed 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:26.560 in school, if I had gone to college for something. 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:28.560 And then lastly, we are all going to kick it 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.480 and talk about how you can tell if the traditional 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:35.439 path or a new concept of a path is right 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:37.360 for you. We're gonna be cracking into all of that. 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:39.199 But before we get into that, I have a question 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.280 that I ask all of my guests and uh and 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.240 it is. It is a very very important question. What 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.920 have you been doing this week to improve yourself? This week, 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.200 I have been and this is gonna sound crazy, because 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:52.920 all of my recent improvements have been about health. This week, 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.480 I'm sitting next to a dozen of donuts, and I'm 0:08:55.679 --> 0:09:00.120 learning how to to fully give myself the freedom and 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:03.040 not feel bad about doing things that make me happy. 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:06.280 Right now, it's a it's a Devil's Food cake, chocolate 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.000 frosted peanut doughnut. Right now, look at this thing. You 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.000 guys can see it. It's incredible. I'm gonna have a 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:12.800 bite of it, while Karen says hers, But mine, I 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.120 think is important because I've been very, very tough on myself, 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:17.960 but I feel very like bad, like I'm hard on 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:19.960 myself about it. So this week I've been focusing on 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.520 the mental aspect of saying, hey, this is okay, you 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:25.760 deserve a donut. If you want a donut, you deserve 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.000 a doughnut, and I'm gonna eat it. While Karen tells 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:32.400 me what hers is my self improvement this week is 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:37.679 that I'm actually doing absolutely nothing towards self improvement, and 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:41.600 so I'm giving myself a break and just kind of 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:44.600 to your point about the donuts, I'm just being where 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:49.120 I am right now, mm hmmm mm hmmm, because it's 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.080 it's a lot of pressure to feel like we need 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:57.040 to constantly be improving ourselves because there's underneath that is 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:01.160 a little bit of like, I'm not okay as I am, um, 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:05.160 and so this week I'm doing absolutely nothing. Karen, You're 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:08.280 on this podcast probably more than anybody else other than myself, 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.360 and so you always have something great. So I'm very 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.680 very happy that you are having a human moment and saying, hey, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.560 sometimes you don't do anything to improve your life and 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.400 that's okay, and I like that. Now, Lee, the pressure 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:21.440 is kind of on because you're not on this podcast ever, 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.280 so you gotta come with something hot. I'm just kidding, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:26.920 it's not it's okay if you don't. All right, well, 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.920 I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go with the baked goods 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:35.040 theme here because I have actually, um taught myself how 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:40.720 to make pies during quarantine I have been making pies. 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:43.720 I say it's like an activity to do with the children, 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.120 but more often than not, like it becomes just me 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.120 doing it by myself. And I have learned that the 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:55.320 secret to a good pie crust is vodka. Woh is it? 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:57.719 Just is it? Because if you have enough vodka, then 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.440 you forget how something tastes and you're just like, okay, 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:06.240 if you're drunk, it doesn't matter how you know, it's 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:10.240 something about how it the moisture of the flour and 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:12.520 the butter and makes the vodka in there and good 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:16.800 things happen. So it's it's only like four tables love that. 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:20.880 But but but yeah, so okay, I think I think 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.720 we're going to do it. We've done berries and peaches, 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.120 and I feel that I'm like making the most of 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.920 the seasonal fruit right now. That's good, that's very very 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:32.840 you know what, send one, you can send one my 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.040 way if you'd like. I'll I can be the tester 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:39.120 for that and we can have so well. I love 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.720 that I'm eating donuts. Karen's just kicking back, You're making pies. 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:44.320 We're having a good time. This is that's what this 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.480 episode is all about. It is about following whatever feels right, 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:49.800 speak of that. Let's get let's get into it. I 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.120 know it's weird that the show is called that, and 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:53.679 we called the show that because I say it all 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.839 the time. But let's get into it. Um, Karen, we're 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:58.839 gonna see you in a bit, Lee, it's time for 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:00.960 a little one on one. So you and I have 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.080 something in common. We both dropped out. You went to 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:07.760 a bit more school than I did. You did a 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.000 little bit more, but you dropped out of your chosen 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.439 career at the time to chase another goal. So tell 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.360 me a little bit about your dropout story. So I 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.600 went to law school, like a lot of people, because 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:24.120 I didn't know what I wanted to do. And after 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.559 I went right after college. And I think of law 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.480 school for a lot of people as a socially acceptable 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:35.280 procrastination technique where you have you get this degree and 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:39.520 everyone's excited that you're a lawyer, but um, you actually 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.920 haven't figured out what you want to do yet. So 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:48.520 I really liked law school. I found it interesting studying 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:53.200 famous cases and it's a lot of human interest stories. 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.280 So but once I got to a law firm, it 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.320 was a real rude awakening it was a lot of 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:05.040 reviewing documents in a conference room. I wore these like 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:08.559 rubber covers over my fingers so I wouldn't get paper cuts. 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.080 I think I was in the last like fully paper 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.640 document review. I think it's all digital now. But but 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.439 it was not glamorous and it was long hours and 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.079 I didn't feel very passionate about the work that I 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.959 was doing, so I left the law firm. I worked 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.839 for a judge, which was wonderful. I love that it 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:32.199 was such interesting stories and being in court, and I 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.160 thought that was that was wonderful. But that's that was 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:38.480 only a year. Uh, And when I went back to 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:40.920 the law firm, I started thinking really about what I 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.240 wanted to do next. I come from a creative family. 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:46.720 My father is an artist and my mother's a writer, 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:49.800 so for me going to law school is a bit 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.280 of a rebellion against them. When I was growing up, 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.720 I thought like, why can't my parents, you know, go 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:00.640 to offices and wear suits and like my friend parents 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:05.680 and my father was teaching drawing classes and there would 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:08.000 be like nude models there, and I thought this was 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.800 literally the most embarrassing thing that could happen to a person, 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.079 and I was like, when I grew up, I am 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.440 going to go to an office and wear a suit 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.360 and this is great. But I really had no idea 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:24.440 what that meant. I feel like, I feel like your 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:26.960 story is so the opposite of everybody. Like usually their 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:28.760 parents are like, you need to go to school and 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:30.520 be this, and they're like, no, mom, I want to 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.840 be an artist. Your parents were literally the opposite you. 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.000 You said you might be the first person in history 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.800 who's ever rebelled against their parents and went to more school. 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.200 I don't know if that's a thing. It's now a 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.240 thing thanks to you. Sorry, I'll let you continue. Yeah. 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:47.440 So I thought law school was the answer. I wasn't 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.280 going to be like my parents. But as I as 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.040 I was exploring more, I realized that what I loved 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.840 was writing. And there were certain aspects of law where 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.080 I get to write, but it wasn't as creative of 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.560 And actually the judge that I clerked for told me 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:05.880 when I was clerking, she was like, you're very wonderful 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.080 with the facts, Like I love when you write the 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.880 opinion section and the and the and the facts section. 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.280 You're good at telling the story. And that little comment 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.840 was sort of enough to make me feel like maybe 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:21.440 I could try doing this. So I started. Um, I 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.800 started working in the morning early and writing and submitting things, 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.400 and little by little I felt like there was something 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:33.320 there that wasn't just my imagination. And I also felt 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.720 that looking down the road of being a lawyer, it 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:42.160 wasn't it wasn't what I wanted ultimately, and I convinced 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:44.160 myself that it was better to be on the bottom 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:46.000 wrong of the ladder that you want to be on, 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.080 then moving up to the top of the ladder you 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:54.320 don't want to be on. So um, yeah, So finally, 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:56.920 you know, I've been practicing law for seven years. I 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:01.680 decided to stop and and give it a go, and 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.280 that that's that's what happened. But I still feel like 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.600 it's it's a transition that I'm almost still in even 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:11.080 a number of years later. Right, Okay, so let's let's 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:14.040 I want to dissect that a little bit. So, I like, 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.000 how much weight you don't give law school, But it's 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.960 a pretty heavy thing, like as as everybody knows, like 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.480 law school, it's like years and years of study and 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:27.320 hard work and you're balancing social life, you're balancing your family, 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:29.520 you're still trying to have fun. You're in your early 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.280 to mid twenties, You're you are spending all this money 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:37.760 for schooling, You're probably going through internships and not getting 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.080 paid for things. They're being wildly underpaid. And then most 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.480 people do that stuff so that they can eventually have 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.680 a very very nice paying job, a very nice salary. 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:48.480 Like you mentioned, they climb that ladder, they get to 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:50.400 the top of that ladder and they can go, Okay, 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:52.880 all of those you know, paper cuts and the little 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:56.080 rubber fingertips and and sitting and being told what to 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.080 do and not really having um your opinion being heard. 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.680 It's worth it now because of this having transitioned out 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:04.760 of that, do you what are your thoughts on that? 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:06.159 Do you feel like it was a waste? Was it 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:09.000 worth it to you? Do you regret spending all of 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:13.280 that time in that school, paying for that education, studying 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.520 time that you maybe could have been having fun, you know, 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.439 doing the quote unquote artists things since now you are 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.640 an artist. I don't I don't regret it. I mean, 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.720 the financial piece is hard to swallow. Yeah, that that 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:33.199 is definitely definitely true. But I do feel like I 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:38.440 was able to take things from that experience, even writing skills, 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:44.639 that that we're helpful, and also that it's now something 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.760 that I can write about that not everyone can write about, 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:54.200 and that and that's useful and and so in some ways, yes, 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.320 I like you think about the prom like I think, well, 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.040 what if I just started out writing, would I be 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.400 so much further along? And and and what if that? 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.960 And and I think it's you know, you just never 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.200 know how things would have worked out. So I try 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.200 to be really, you know, at peace with with that 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.639 decision of going to law school and taking the really 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:22.159 circuitous route. But but yeah, sometimes I think, well, what 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.240 if I had done it differently? And what was the 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:26.560 meaning of it? And and and you have to kind 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.919 of continually revisit that. At least I do absolutely, And 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:32.920 I mean I'm very very firm believer in the concept 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.040 of everything you've done, every every decision you made, every mistake, 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.679 every success lad you exactly to where you are, and 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:41.640 if you wanted something change, then it probably wouldn't lead 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:43.800 you to where you are now. So I don't ask 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:45.919 that question in the terms of thinking you did the 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.360 wrong thing at all. You obviously did the right thing, 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:51.639 because there are so many rewards about what you the 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.199 decision you made and writing and now UM and I 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.240 want to talk about those things you're right or now 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.439 and you're writing actually helps other lawyers transition away from 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:01.880 law when a not really speaking to them the same 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.479 way that it didn't really speak to you. What made you, 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.439 I guess identify like like you said, you know this 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.359 gave you this perspective you can write about things that 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.520 nobody else has written about. What what made you come 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:14.520 up with that idea to say, hey, maybe I should 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.200 write in a way that that could inspire other people 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:21.199 to do the same as me. So I have a 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:23.240 lot of lawyer friends and people I went to law 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.560 school with, and I felt that like a lot of 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:32.760 people were unhappy and thinking about ways to transition at 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:36.520 least out of a law firm into something else. And 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:39.800 you know, I talked to a lot of people about it, 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.600 and I noticed that there were a lot of people 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:47.040 who we're seeing like career counselors or are sending me 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:51.879 to different websites about UM transitioning for lawyers because it's 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:56.639 it's not the most transferable degree, uh that people think 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.879 it necessarily is. Because it teaches you a lot of 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.119 critical thinking. But if you want to go into a 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.400 different profession, you're still going to have to prove yourself 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.439 and and start kind of on the low end of 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.520 that profession because you haven't had the experience. I mean, 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:16.119 I interned in a magazine when I was in my 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.479 early thirties and extremely pregnant. I mean I was like 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:24.640 walking around with like college students and I was ten 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.119 years older than them and stuck out. Literally, how did you? 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.119 How did you power through those moments? I mean, I 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:32.800 know that, Like, I feel the same way, and I 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:36.280 know it doesn't have any you know, any comparison, but 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:37.840 I feel the same way when I'm a twenty four 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.280 year old man trying to make TikTok's with fourteen year 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:42.439 old kids, Like I feel like that, you know, And 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.480 so how did you? What did you tell yourself? Because 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:46.960 I think a lot of people feel like that, maybe, um, 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:49.600 you know, and my album The Gospel of twenty three, 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:51.160 I have a whole song that feels like that. You're 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:53.639 just like I feel old. I feel like an old person. 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.959 And and when you're like you said, you're you're like 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:01.679