Speaker 1: My name is Alex, and I have not been in
Speaker 1: a classroom since ninth grade. No, no, alright, No, it
Speaker 1: will be alright forever. No, we are alright, No, will
Speaker 1: be alright forever. I have two parents who are very
Speaker 1: very for chasing your dreams. You know. My mom did
Speaker 1: a couple of years of college, ultimately met my dad,
Speaker 1: and my dad kind of started working while my mom
Speaker 1: raised us as as children. My dad, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: actually dropped out of high school and helped support his
Speaker 1: own family, like his parents and his brothers and sisters
Speaker 1: by working for his father's company and uh and eventually
Speaker 1: got a g e. D. And became a very successful
Speaker 1: real estate agent. If you've listened to my other episodes
Speaker 1: of the podcast, you'll hear more about that story. But
Speaker 1: I want to focus on the education part because what
Speaker 1: happened with me is I always liked learning. I think
Speaker 1: learning is something that I've always loved, and it's something
Speaker 1: that I'm very very passionate about. But I loved learning
Speaker 1: about the things I liked more than the things I
Speaker 1: didn't like. And my parents very much so picked up
Speaker 1: on that towards seventh and eighth grade when they realized
Speaker 1: I was really focusing all of my time on learning
Speaker 1: about music theory and how to play certain chords and
Speaker 1: and structure and songwriting. And I would focus so much
Speaker 1: time the way that a doctor would focus on medical information,
Speaker 1: or like a lawyer would focus on studying for the bar.
Speaker 1: I was studying for the musical bar. I guess and uh.
Speaker 1: And halfway through ninth grade, my parents, you know, we
Speaker 1: had decided to move to Los Angeles and chase my
Speaker 1: dream of being a musician, and I transitioned from regular
Speaker 1: classroom traditional school I don't know if that's what it's called,
Speaker 1: into online school, which was not by any means successful
Speaker 1: for me. I I'm gonna call my mom out in
Speaker 1: a good way. She was so good about logging in
Speaker 1: for me so that my hours were all right. I know, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry pre Mavera online high school. This is
Speaker 1: the truth. My parents were so good about helping me
Speaker 1: be successful, but ultimately I failed a lot of those classes,
Speaker 1: not because I wasn't testing properly, but because I just
Speaker 1: wasn't showing up or doing any of the assignments. So
Speaker 1: by the time that I actually had stopped going to school,
Speaker 1: it was a very smooth transition into working full time
Speaker 1: in the music industry, and my dad kind of embedded
Speaker 1: in my brain this idea of you can make it happen,
Speaker 1: you know, mentality, you have to just put in the work,
Speaker 1: and and seeing him as a firsthand example of that
Speaker 1: was always very easy for me to look at and
Speaker 1: be like, oh, yeah, my dad's totally right because he
Speaker 1: did it, you know. That was kind of my mindset
Speaker 1: with everything. And so here I am ninth grade kind
Speaker 1: of looking for a new way to have a career
Speaker 1: without having a high school diploma, and then came my
Speaker 1: way something that's very very special in California called the Chessie.
Speaker 1: It is basically like the g E D on steroids,
Speaker 1: but instead of passing and getting like whatever the g
Speaker 1: e D Certificate is, you actually get like a diploma
Speaker 1: equivalent certificate. So if I wanted to, I could go
Speaker 1: to a university afterwards. And my parents always wanting me
Speaker 1: to have you know, that education under my belt. They
Speaker 1: were super supportive of that, and my fifteen to sixteen
Speaker 1: year old girlfriend, Katie Vincent's mom actually paid for like
Speaker 1: the books for me to study and like all of
Speaker 1: that stuff. So shout out Genea Vincent, big love. You
Speaker 1: help me get my diploma, shouts Mom and Dad. I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm winning a Grammy, but I only got
Speaker 1: like almost diploma, so uh, you know, and then I
Speaker 1: at least for me, if you're a fan of me,
Speaker 1: you kind of know where that story goes. I started
Speaker 1: posting on social media and doing what I love and
Speaker 1: chasing it relentlessly and not stopping that work, and I
Speaker 1: found myself to a place where I'm a professional in
Speaker 1: my field of work if I even want to call
Speaker 1: it that. I just like making music for fun and
Speaker 1: it pays my bills. Like that's where I am. And
Speaker 1: so I am now almost ten years deep in my profession,
Speaker 1: with all of the experience that I got to have
Speaker 1: and being treated as an adult since I was fifteen,
Speaker 1: and and now feeling like I've I'm very deeply rooted
Speaker 1: into something that I truly love to do, and I
Speaker 1: got to focus all that time. But I would be
Speaker 1: remiss if I didn't say that sometimes I wish I was,
Speaker 1: you know, getting drunk at prom off of like some
Speaker 1: weird mixture of everybody's parents alcohol. Or if I said
Speaker 1: I didn't get to go to college parties or or
Speaker 1: spring breaks, or playing high school basketball, all of those things.
Speaker 1: I do think about those things, and it kind of
Speaker 1: all of the positives that came out of me dropping
Speaker 1: out and chasing my dreams. It comes with a lot
Speaker 1: of pros and it comes with a lot of cons.
Speaker 1: I also look back at, you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: people who ask me that question because I'm open about
Speaker 1: my history with schooling, and they say, well, should I
Speaker 1: go to school? Should I not go to school? And
Speaker 1: I've always said, you know, other people as advice, don't
Speaker 1: take me as the example. And if you don't necessarily
Speaker 1: have a plan, and if you don't necessarily know, I've
Speaker 1: always said you should go to school, you should go
Speaker 1: to college. But there's also now so many factors that
Speaker 1: I never put into my brain, you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of student loans and and the cost of being of
Speaker 1: going to school, and the percentage of people who actually
Speaker 1: do the job that they went to school for, and
Speaker 1: and a lot of people, especially my friends, you know,
Speaker 1: they got their communications degree and it didn't do anything
Speaker 1: for them for their job that they're at now. It's
Speaker 1: really put it into perspective. So that got me thinking,
Speaker 1: is dropping out the right idea? Is not going to college.
Speaker 1: The right idea is staying in school because your parents
Speaker 1: want you to a good idea And if it is
Speaker 1: or it isn't, why is that? No? What's up everybody?
Speaker 1: It's alex Iona here. This is let's get into it
Speaker 1: my podcast where we talk about a ton of different topics.
Speaker 1: Really nothing is off the table at this point, and
Speaker 1: we want to talk about something. It's not the sexiest
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie, not the sexiest topic, but it's
Speaker 1: very very important, especially today we're talking about edgecation and
Speaker 1: how important it is to go to college and chase
Speaker 1: your dreams and if those things don't go together, how
Speaker 1: important it is to make the right decision on which
Speaker 1: one you want to do. So. I have two very
Speaker 1: very diverse guests here that have different paths that we
Speaker 1: can talk about and have open conversations with. The first
Speaker 1: being a freelance writer whose work has appeared in numerous
Speaker 1: publications including The New York Times, The Atlantic, Real Simple More.
Speaker 1: But She attended Penn Law before working several years in
Speaker 1: big law and clerking in the Southern District of New York.
Speaker 1: She's currently toiling away on a brand new novel, You
Speaker 1: Guessed It it's about a law firm. Her name is
Speaker 1: Lee McMullen Abramson. Lee, it's very nice to meet you.
Speaker 1: I just want to know how are you. I'm good,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. It's great to be here. You
Speaker 1: guys can't see this, but Lee's got on as she
Speaker 1: She's told me it's her daughters. I really think it's hers,
Speaker 1: and she's just like a closeted Frozen fanatic. They're Frozen
Speaker 1: themed headphones. They're the cool things I've ever seen. I'm
Speaker 1: very happy, and you can be honest here on this podcast.
Speaker 1: We're open. We're open and honest. The first episode I
Speaker 1: talked about losing my virginity, so it's like nothing's off
Speaker 1: the table. If those are yours, just just be proud
Speaker 1: about it, you know. I will say that I'm very
Speaker 1: happy to be wearing them. Okay, I was glad they
Speaker 1: were available to me and they feel good. I like that.
Speaker 1: You've got a little bit, you know, a little bit
Speaker 1: of ownership of those also with me. You guys know,
Speaker 1: she's one of my closest friends and I asked her
Speaker 1: pretty much for help on anything. Uh, Karen or like man.
Speaker 1: She is my wisdom tree. She is my off the
Speaker 1: clock therapist as I'm going to call you. It's my
Speaker 1: new title for you, because I have so many questions
Speaker 1: for you. Karen Orleckman, how are you? I am COVID
Speaker 1: good today? Is COVID good? Baby? That's all we can
Speaker 1: ask for these days. Well, we're talking about education and
Speaker 1: both of you guys have very very different paths in
Speaker 1: which you guys chased your ultimate dream or you guys
Speaker 1: followed you know, the career path that led you to
Speaker 1: where you are, and we're gonna dive super super deep
Speaker 1: into that. First, Lee, you and I are going to
Speaker 1: talk about Dropouts Handbook because you are very very experienced,
Speaker 1: as we're gonna learn in helping people find out how
Speaker 1: to follow their truest self, even if it kind of
Speaker 1: diverges off of the path that they originally were taking.
Speaker 1: And then Karen, you and I are going to talk
Speaker 1: about what might have been the concept of well, if
Speaker 1: I had done this, Even for me, I have these
Speaker 1: thoughts all the time, talking about if I had stayed
Speaker 1: in school, if I had gone to college for something.
Speaker 1: And then lastly, we are all going to kick it
Speaker 1: and talk about how you can tell if the traditional
Speaker 1: path or a new concept of a path is right
Speaker 1: for you. We're gonna be cracking into all of that.
Speaker 1: But before we get into that, I have a question
Speaker 1: that I ask all of my guests and uh and
Speaker 1: it is. It is a very very important question. What
Speaker 1: have you been doing this week to improve yourself? This week,
Speaker 1: I have been and this is gonna sound crazy, because
Speaker 1: all of my recent improvements have been about health. This week,
Speaker 1: I'm sitting next to a dozen of donuts, and I'm
Speaker 1: learning how to to fully give myself the freedom and
Speaker 1: not feel bad about doing things that make me happy.
Speaker 1: Right now, it's a it's a Devil's Food cake, chocolate
Speaker 1: frosted peanut doughnut. Right now, look at this thing. You
Speaker 1: guys can see it. It's incredible. I'm gonna have a
Speaker 1: bite of it, while Karen says hers, But mine, I
Speaker 1: think is important because I've been very, very tough on myself,
Speaker 1: but I feel very like bad, like I'm hard on
Speaker 1: myself about it. So this week I've been focusing on
Speaker 1: the mental aspect of saying, hey, this is okay, you
Speaker 1: deserve a donut. If you want a donut, you deserve
Speaker 1: a doughnut, and I'm gonna eat it. While Karen tells
Speaker 1: me what hers is my self improvement this week is
Speaker 1: that I'm actually doing absolutely nothing towards self improvement, and
Speaker 1: so I'm giving myself a break and just kind of
Speaker 1: to your point about the donuts, I'm just being where
Speaker 1: I am right now, mm hmmm mm hmmm, because it's
Speaker 1: it's a lot of pressure to feel like we need
Speaker 1: to constantly be improving ourselves because there's underneath that is
Speaker 1: a little bit of like, I'm not okay as I am, um,
Speaker 1: and so this week I'm doing absolutely nothing. Karen, You're
Speaker 1: on this podcast probably more than anybody else other than myself,
Speaker 1: and so you always have something great. So I'm very
Speaker 1: very happy that you are having a human moment and saying, hey,
Speaker 1: sometimes you don't do anything to improve your life and
Speaker 1: that's okay, and I like that. Now, Lee, the pressure
Speaker 1: is kind of on because you're not on this podcast ever,
Speaker 1: so you gotta come with something hot. I'm just kidding,
Speaker 1: it's not it's okay if you don't. All right, well,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go with the baked goods
Speaker 1: theme here because I have actually, um taught myself how
Speaker 1: to make pies during quarantine I have been making pies.
Speaker 1: I say it's like an activity to do with the children,
Speaker 1: but more often than not, like it becomes just me
Speaker 1: doing it by myself. And I have learned that the
Speaker 1: secret to a good pie crust is vodka. Woh is it?
Speaker 1: Just is it? Because if you have enough vodka, then
Speaker 1: you forget how something tastes and you're just like, okay,
Speaker 1: if you're drunk, it doesn't matter how you know, it's
Speaker 1: something about how it the moisture of the flour and
Speaker 1: the butter and makes the vodka in there and good
Speaker 1: things happen. So it's it's only like four tables love that.
Speaker 1: But but but yeah, so okay, I think I think
Speaker 1: we're going to do it. We've done berries and peaches,
Speaker 1: and I feel that I'm like making the most of
Speaker 1: the seasonal fruit right now. That's good, that's very very
Speaker 1: you know what, send one, you can send one my
Speaker 1: way if you'd like. I'll I can be the tester
Speaker 1: for that and we can have so well. I love
Speaker 1: that I'm eating donuts. Karen's just kicking back, You're making pies.
Speaker 1: We're having a good time. This is that's what this
Speaker 1: episode is all about. It is about following whatever feels right,
Speaker 1: speak of that. Let's get let's get into it. I
Speaker 1: know it's weird that the show is called that, and
Speaker 1: we called the show that because I say it all
Speaker 1: the time. But let's get into it. Um, Karen, we're
Speaker 1: gonna see you in a bit, Lee, it's time for
Speaker 1: a little one on one. So you and I have
Speaker 1: something in common. We both dropped out. You went to
Speaker 1: a bit more school than I did. You did a
Speaker 1: little bit more, but you dropped out of your chosen
Speaker 1: career at the time to chase another goal. So tell
Speaker 1: me a little bit about your dropout story. So I
Speaker 1: went to law school, like a lot of people, because
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I wanted to do. And after
Speaker 1: I went right after college. And I think of law
Speaker 1: school for a lot of people as a socially acceptable
Speaker 1: procrastination technique where you have you get this degree and
Speaker 1: everyone's excited that you're a lawyer, but um, you actually
Speaker 1: haven't figured out what you want to do yet. So
Speaker 1: I really liked law school. I found it interesting studying
Speaker 1: famous cases and it's a lot of human interest stories.
Speaker 1: So but once I got to a law firm, it
Speaker 1: was a real rude awakening it was a lot of
Speaker 1: reviewing documents in a conference room. I wore these like
Speaker 1: rubber covers over my fingers so I wouldn't get paper cuts.
Speaker 1: I think I was in the last like fully paper
Speaker 1: document review. I think it's all digital now. But but
Speaker 1: it was not glamorous and it was long hours and
Speaker 1: I didn't feel very passionate about the work that I
Speaker 1: was doing, so I left the law firm. I worked
Speaker 1: for a judge, which was wonderful. I love that it
Speaker 1: was such interesting stories and being in court, and I
Speaker 1: thought that was that was wonderful. But that's that was
Speaker 1: only a year. Uh, And when I went back to
Speaker 1: the law firm, I started thinking really about what I
Speaker 1: wanted to do next. I come from a creative family.
Speaker 1: My father is an artist and my mother's a writer,
Speaker 1: so for me going to law school is a bit
Speaker 1: of a rebellion against them. When I was growing up,
Speaker 1: I thought like, why can't my parents, you know, go
Speaker 1: to offices and wear suits and like my friend parents
Speaker 1: and my father was teaching drawing classes and there would
Speaker 1: be like nude models there, and I thought this was
Speaker 1: literally the most embarrassing thing that could happen to a person,
Speaker 1: and I was like, when I grew up, I am
Speaker 1: going to go to an office and wear a suit
Speaker 1: and this is great. But I really had no idea
Speaker 1: what that meant. I feel like, I feel like your
Speaker 1: story is so the opposite of everybody. Like usually their
Speaker 1: parents are like, you need to go to school and
Speaker 1: be this, and they're like, no, mom, I want to
Speaker 1: be an artist. Your parents were literally the opposite you.
Speaker 1: You said you might be the first person in history
Speaker 1: who's ever rebelled against their parents and went to more school.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a thing. It's now a
Speaker 1: thing thanks to you. Sorry, I'll let you continue. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I thought law school was the answer. I wasn't
Speaker 1: going to be like my parents. But as I as
Speaker 1: I was exploring more, I realized that what I loved
Speaker 1: was writing. And there were certain aspects of law where
Speaker 1: I get to write, but it wasn't as creative of
Speaker 1: And actually the judge that I clerked for told me
Speaker 1: when I was clerking, she was like, you're very wonderful
Speaker 1: with the facts, Like I love when you write the
Speaker 1: opinion section and the and the and the facts section.
Speaker 1: You're good at telling the story. And that little comment
Speaker 1: was sort of enough to make me feel like maybe
Speaker 1: I could try doing this. So I started. Um, I
Speaker 1: started working in the morning early and writing and submitting things,
Speaker 1: and little by little I felt like there was something
Speaker 1: there that wasn't just my imagination. And I also felt
Speaker 1: that looking down the road of being a lawyer, it
Speaker 1: wasn't it wasn't what I wanted ultimately, and I convinced
Speaker 1: myself that it was better to be on the bottom
Speaker 1: wrong of the ladder that you want to be on,
Speaker 1: then moving up to the top of the ladder you
Speaker 1: don't want to be on. So um, yeah, So finally,
Speaker 1: you know, I've been practicing law for seven years. I
Speaker 1: decided to stop and and give it a go, and
Speaker 1: that that's that's what happened. But I still feel like
Speaker 1: it's it's a transition that I'm almost still in even
Speaker 1: a number of years later. Right, Okay, so let's let's
Speaker 1: I want to dissect that a little bit. So, I like,
Speaker 1: how much weight you don't give law school, But it's
Speaker 1: a pretty heavy thing, like as as everybody knows, like
Speaker 1: law school, it's like years and years of study and
Speaker 1: hard work and you're balancing social life, you're balancing your family,
Speaker 1: you're still trying to have fun. You're in your early
Speaker 1: to mid twenties, You're you are spending all this money
Speaker 1: for schooling, You're probably going through internships and not getting
Speaker 1: paid for things. They're being wildly underpaid. And then most
Speaker 1: people do that stuff so that they can eventually have
Speaker 1: a very very nice paying job, a very nice salary.
Speaker 1: Like you mentioned, they climb that ladder, they get to
Speaker 1: the top of that ladder and they can go, Okay,
Speaker 1: all of those you know, paper cuts and the little
Speaker 1: rubber fingertips and and sitting and being told what to
Speaker 1: do and not really having um your opinion being heard.
Speaker 1: It's worth it now because of this having transitioned out
Speaker 1: of that, do you what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1: Do you feel like it was a waste? Was it
Speaker 1: worth it to you? Do you regret spending all of
Speaker 1: that time in that school, paying for that education, studying
Speaker 1: time that you maybe could have been having fun, you know,
Speaker 1: doing the quote unquote artists things since now you are
Speaker 1: an artist. I don't I don't regret it. I mean,
Speaker 1: the financial piece is hard to swallow. Yeah, that that
Speaker 1: is definitely definitely true. But I do feel like I
Speaker 1: was able to take things from that experience, even writing skills,
Speaker 1: that that we're helpful, and also that it's now something
Speaker 1: that I can write about that not everyone can write about,
Speaker 1: and that and that's useful and and so in some ways, yes,
Speaker 1: I like you think about the prom like I think, well,
Speaker 1: what if I just started out writing, would I be
Speaker 1: so much further along? And and and what if that?
Speaker 1: And and I think it's you know, you just never
Speaker 1: know how things would have worked out. So I try
Speaker 1: to be really, you know, at peace with with that
Speaker 1: decision of going to law school and taking the really
Speaker 1: circuitous route. But but yeah, sometimes I think, well, what
Speaker 1: if I had done it differently? And what was the
Speaker 1: meaning of it? And and and you have to kind
Speaker 1: of continually revisit that. At least I do absolutely, And
Speaker 1: I mean I'm very very firm believer in the concept
Speaker 1: of everything you've done, every every decision you made, every mistake,
Speaker 1: every success lad you exactly to where you are, and
Speaker 1: if you wanted something change, then it probably wouldn't lead
Speaker 1: you to where you are now. So I don't ask
Speaker 1: that question in the terms of thinking you did the
Speaker 1: wrong thing at all. You obviously did the right thing,
Speaker 1: because there are so many rewards about what you the
Speaker 1: decision you made and writing and now UM and I
Speaker 1: want to talk about those things you're right or now
Speaker 1: and you're writing actually helps other lawyers transition away from
Speaker 1: law when a not really speaking to them the same
Speaker 1: way that it didn't really speak to you. What made you,
Speaker 1: I guess identify like like you said, you know this
Speaker 1: gave you this perspective you can write about things that
Speaker 1: nobody else has written about. What what made you come
Speaker 1: up with that idea to say, hey, maybe I should
Speaker 1: write in a way that that could inspire other people
Speaker 1: to do the same as me. So I have a
Speaker 1: lot of lawyer friends and people I went to law
Speaker 1: school with, and I felt that like a lot of
Speaker 1: people were unhappy and thinking about ways to transition at
Speaker 1: least out of a law firm into something else. And
Speaker 1: you know, I talked to a lot of people about it,
Speaker 1: and I noticed that there were a lot of people
Speaker 1: who we're seeing like career counselors or are sending me
Speaker 1: to different websites about UM transitioning for lawyers because it's
Speaker 1: it's not the most transferable degree, uh that people think
Speaker 1: it necessarily is. Because it teaches you a lot of
Speaker 1: critical thinking. But if you want to go into a
Speaker 1: different profession, you're still going to have to prove yourself
Speaker 1: and and start kind of on the low end of
Speaker 1: that profession because you haven't had the experience. I mean,
Speaker 1: I interned in a magazine when I was in my
Speaker 1: early thirties and extremely pregnant. I mean I was like
Speaker 1: walking around with like college students and I was ten
Speaker 1: years older than them and stuck out. Literally, how did you?
Speaker 1: How did you power through those moments? I mean, I
Speaker 1: know that, Like, I feel the same way, and I
Speaker 1: know it doesn't have any you know, any comparison, but
Speaker 1: I feel the same way when I'm a twenty four
Speaker 1: year old man trying to make TikTok's with fourteen year
Speaker 1: old kids, Like I feel like that, you know, And
Speaker 1: so how did you? What did you tell yourself? Because
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people feel like that, maybe, um,
Speaker 1: you know, and my album The Gospel of twenty three,
Speaker 1: I have a whole song that feels like that. You're
Speaker 1: just like I feel old. I feel like an old person.
Speaker 1: And and when you're like you said, you're you're like
Speaker 1: extremely pregnant. By the way, That's my new favorite quote. Um,
Speaker 1: when you're extremely pregnant and you're you're you're you're not
Speaker 1: necessarily fitting in with all these other interns, but you're
Speaker 1: following your passion. Well, how did you balance the emotions
Speaker 1: of that, because I know, at least for me, I've
Speaker 1: felt those I felt both like, man, I'm so much
Speaker 1: wiser than all these people. That gives me the leg up,
Speaker 1: and then also feeling like, man, I'm so much older
Speaker 1: than these people. I feel like I don't fit in.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe it's too late for me. Mm hmm. I
Speaker 1: think that as a writer and as a creative person,
Speaker 1: I always think about something that Nora Ephron said, which
Speaker 1: is everything is copy. So when I was like waddling
Speaker 1: around to the copy machine, I would think, you know what,
Speaker 1: like I could write about this and this is kind
Speaker 1: of funny. Um. And I felt like it was an
Speaker 1: experience and and I was going to have it because
Speaker 1: I wanted to know what it was like to work
Speaker 1: in a magazine and if I wanted to work in
Speaker 1: a magazine as opposed to be freelance. And so I
Speaker 1: was like, this is about what what I'm going to
Speaker 1: take from this experience? Um, you know what I want
Speaker 1: to take from it, and even if it's you know,
Speaker 1: a little untraditional, then that's okay. But I think it's
Speaker 1: a creative person always thinking like even your your your
Speaker 1: most self conscious moments, even your most um really kind
Speaker 1: of doubting moments, those kinds of things can actually make
Speaker 1: for the most relatable creative expressions if you write about
Speaker 1: those things, if you sing about those things, because everyone
Speaker 1: feels that way, and if you are okay experiencing them
Speaker 1: and expressing them that that that that will actually be
Speaker 1: a worthwhile creative experience. Uh So I try to think
Speaker 1: of it, well, what can I kind of turn this into,
Speaker 1: even if it's many years down the road or um.
Speaker 1: But I think that's helpful. Wow, I love that. And
Speaker 1: we we've already talked about We've talked about your basically
Speaker 1: this whole dropout journey. You know you are. You were
Speaker 1: in one of the most prestigious professions in my opinion,
Speaker 1: and you just weren't happy and you slowly started. And
Speaker 1: I think that's where I identify with you in the
Speaker 1: same way of my journey where it wasn't like I
Speaker 1: woke up one morning and I was like, I'm a musician,
Speaker 1: I'm quitting school. Here goes this. It was more of
Speaker 1: a transition of like, I want to focus on this,
Speaker 1: let's try this. You're double timing at at one point
Speaker 1: where you're writing in the morning's early early early, still
Speaker 1: going to your job. And so I have one last
Speaker 1: question for you, and it's it's your advice for people
Speaker 1: like you and I who who you know find themselves
Speaker 1: in a place where they know they don't fit, or
Speaker 1: something that doesn't necessarily work for them, or a job
Speaker 1: that's just leading them down a path of of maybe
Speaker 1: not feeling purposeful, not feeling happy. What's your advice for
Speaker 1: for those people in terms of having the courage to
Speaker 1: to identify with it and make that move. I would
Speaker 1: say to invest in the time to feel you're out
Speaker 1: what it is you want to do, whether that's speaking
Speaker 1: to some kind of career counselor or you know, doing
Speaker 1: the work. There's lots of online resources, uh for kind
Speaker 1: of taking those tests that let you know what kind
Speaker 1: of profession be better and or if you know what
Speaker 1: it is, kind of starting that process while you're in
Speaker 1: your job, because I think that is helpful and clarifying
Speaker 1: and we'll make you realize, like, is this something I
Speaker 1: really want to go for And also you'll feel more
Speaker 1: confident if you if you do end up going for it,
Speaker 1: if you've kind of put down a little bit of
Speaker 1: roots before you make that that leap. But I think
Speaker 1: it's also in something I had to remind myself important
Speaker 1: to think. Like I would also be like, well, it's
Speaker 1: too late. You know, I've done this for a long time.
Speaker 1: I'm not twenty one, Like it's too late. But then
Speaker 1: you think, well, life is actually really long, So do
Speaker 1: I want to be doing this for another forty years
Speaker 1: or what? Like what if I started this process now?
Speaker 1: And like, I'm never going to be um younger than
Speaker 1: I am now. So I think it's helpful to think
Speaker 1: about the length of of time that you could be
Speaker 1: doing something else. I love that. And and Gary V.
Speaker 1: I shout out Gary Vynerchuk all the time. Um, he's
Speaker 1: one of my favorite people on social media who always
Speaker 1: talks about, you know, the concept of people feeling old
Speaker 1: and him basically saying, none of you guys, unless you're
Speaker 1: the oldest person on earth, You're not old, you know.
Speaker 1: And uh and and I think what you just said
Speaker 1: is something I loved And I've never even heard that before.
Speaker 1: But it's like, you're never gonna be younger than you
Speaker 1: are right now. So if you think you're old, now,
Speaker 1: wait ten years and you're really gonna be old. Like
Speaker 1: this is the youngest. You got to take advantage of
Speaker 1: that and go for it. Um. Well, Lee, thank you
Speaker 1: so much. We're gonna take a quick break, and when
Speaker 1: we come back, I'm actually gonna let you have a
Speaker 1: little break if you want. I'll virtually give you one
Speaker 1: of these donuts and you can just munch on it. Uh.
Speaker 1: And when we come back, I'm gonna be talking with
Speaker 1: Karen about the emotional side of of changing your path.
Speaker 1: All right, we are back, and apparently so is the
Speaker 1: construction going on outside. Um, So if you hear anything,
Speaker 1: I will let you know that's the construct. And I
Speaker 1: think they're they're breaking down a wall and and uh,
Speaker 1: it's it feels very close close to home for me. Um.
Speaker 1: And now I'm joined with Karen. Karen, how do you feel?
Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts before we get into our thoughts, um,
Speaker 1: just your thoughts on Lee's story. I've never heard anything
Speaker 1: like it in terms of somebody who went you know,
Speaker 1: I've heard for me it was like high school and
Speaker 1: then music, but hers was like lawyer and then artists
Speaker 1: like I feel like those were polar opposites. What are
Speaker 1: your thoughts? One of the things I heard in Lee's
Speaker 1: story is how your deepest truth really wants to break
Speaker 1: through the surface, and that there was something about her
Speaker 1: path as a writer or her calling as a writer
Speaker 1: that just finally broke through, like like a seed sprowsing
Speaker 1: through the soil, you know, and that she could not
Speaker 1: have kept going the way she was going. She had
Speaker 1: to follow that that true path absolutely. Um. Well, before
Speaker 1: we get into our conversation, I want to speak to
Speaker 1: that because, uh, seventy percent of Americans are going to
Speaker 1: go to a four year school. So I'm part of
Speaker 1: the seventy of Americans will go to a four year
Speaker 1: school and less than two thirds of them will graduate
Speaker 1: with a degree. They'll pay for school and not even
Speaker 1: get the thing you pay for. Yeah, what do you
Speaker 1: make of that? I just I don't know. Especially, we're
Speaker 1: gonna need a whole episode in terms of the politics
Speaker 1: side of like the economics of schooling. You know, having
Speaker 1: a girlfriend who's who's going to u c l A
Speaker 1: And studying like a very prestigious major because her goal
Speaker 1: is there, or having friends who go to really high
Speaker 1: end schools and are willing to pay you know, lawyers
Speaker 1: who go to Harvard pay for it and become you
Speaker 1: know these lawyers who end up it ends up all
Speaker 1: paying off in the end. But it is insane that
Speaker 1: this is how much like I'm looking at people's yearly costs.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, it is insane. And then and then
Speaker 1: almost half of them don't even get the thing they
Speaker 1: pay for. That's literally like going to a restaurant ordering
Speaker 1: a bunch of food, paying for it ahead of time,
Speaker 1: and then they go now waiting too long. I'm gonna go.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna leave. That's just insane to me. And
Speaker 1: I want to talk about those feelings a little bit later,
Speaker 1: but before we get into it, You're actually this is crazy.
Speaker 1: You're the black sheep in this group. You did not
Speaker 1: drop out, You stayed in school. You are also one
Speaker 1: of the like and and no no offense to Lee
Speaker 1: at all. You're obviously wildly smart because you went to
Speaker 1: law school. But you, in our personal relationship, are one
Speaker 1: of the most insightful humans that I know. That's why
Speaker 1: I come to you for advice and everything. Karen did
Speaker 1: you always know you wanted to follow this path of
Speaker 1: being an enlighteners? Like I think more than a therapist,
Speaker 1: you are like an enlightener to me, So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: call you that. Um did you always know that that's
Speaker 1: what you wanted to do or did you have some
Speaker 1: of some false starts that maybe you dropped out of
Speaker 1: those ideas before for a long time, I didn't know.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of areas of interest. I grew
Speaker 1: up in a family of teachers, and also education was
Speaker 1: always emphasized as being very important. I'm also the granddaughter
Speaker 1: of immigrants, so my my mother's father like literally was
Speaker 1: off the boat and worked in the laundry and had
Speaker 1: very humble beginnings and worked as did the sort of
Speaker 1: quote American dream thing and became a lawyer actually. But um, so, education,
Speaker 1: the value of education was always like like the ethical
Speaker 1: value of education and being the best person you can
Speaker 1: be was always something that was highly emphasized with that
Speaker 1: also with that immigrant family story built in and and
Speaker 1: this may be a topic for another episode, but I
Speaker 1: have been thinking about higher education as and white supremacy culture.
Speaker 1: So I just want to like throw that in there
Speaker 1: a little bit, which is not to say that education
Speaker 1: isn't important, but kind of to your point about what
Speaker 1: is happening that people are going hundreds of thousands of
Speaker 1: dollars into debt into a system that may or may
Speaker 1: not actually be serving their their well being or are
Speaker 1: collective well being, And is there a way that we
Speaker 1: can we need to really reassess how this not the
Speaker 1: value of education, but the structural systems of education. I think,
Speaker 1: combined you and I have the biggest pot of tea
Speaker 1: to pour over all of us in there and their
Speaker 1: education system right now. And Lee, if you got some tea,
Speaker 1: you're more than welcome to bring it in vodka and
Speaker 1: some vodka pie so we can just get drizzy drunk
Speaker 1: while a munching on a nice little, nice little cinnamon
Speaker 1: apple pie. I didn't answer your question, though, which is that,
Speaker 1: UM I knew that it was important for me to
Speaker 1: be of service, to be supporting people, and to be
Speaker 1: changing the world and to be like a change agent
Speaker 1: or an enlighten or whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 1: I didn't really know what that was gonna look like.
Speaker 1: And when I was in high school and I had
Speaker 1: a public education, UM I took this class in high
Speaker 1: school called Problems of Young Adulthood, and one of the
Speaker 1: semesters in that class, we had to do a project
Speaker 1: to investigate what career path we might want to take.
Speaker 1: And so at that time there was literally a huge
Speaker 1: encyclopedic book called the Occupational Handbook. Maybe it's online now,
Speaker 1: I don't know. And I went to the library and
Speaker 1: spent hours pouring through that book, and I landed on
Speaker 1: social work. Even though I looked at the jobs that
Speaker 1: social workers had and I thought, well, this is cool
Speaker 1: because I would have so many different things that I
Speaker 1: could do. I liked the idea of having a variety
Speaker 1: of options, and more importantly, I felt like the values
Speaker 1: of that work really resonated with my own values that
Speaker 1: had to do with empowerment and social justice and respecting
Speaker 1: the dignity of all people and and I'm trying not
Speaker 1: to use the word help really, but it's more like
Speaker 1: to be of support. And so those things really attracted
Speaker 1: me and felt like they were values that I cared about.
Speaker 1: And from a very practical point of view, knowing that
Speaker 1: I could do a bunch of different things, it was
Speaker 1: never my plan to be a therapist. Never. Um, it
Speaker 1: is no surprise to me that even though therapist was
Speaker 1: not your main goal, you had you know, you were
Speaker 1: on that path of wanting to be of service or
Speaker 1: wanting to be of support to to your fellow human beings. Um,
Speaker 1: but I want to talk now about this whole concept
Speaker 1: of what might have been. You went to school, you
Speaker 1: kind of followed your path. I didn't go to school,
Speaker 1: but I also followed my path, and I have a
Speaker 1: lot of feelings, like I had mentioned where it's like, man,
Speaker 1: it would have been nice to to be on the
Speaker 1: basketball team and you know, to be to try and
Speaker 1: be the homecoming king or what you know whatever, all
Speaker 1: of that that high school stuff is. I didn't get
Speaker 1: any of that. I went to one dance with my
Speaker 1: with my my little teenage girlfriend. I went to like
Speaker 1: a Sadie Hawkins dance. Um. But other than that, like
Speaker 1: I didn't get to do any of the high school stuff.
Speaker 1: Like I kind of became an adult at fifteen, and
Speaker 1: I have a lot of feelings and and and almost
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like trying to fill voids, you know,
Speaker 1: like I think that a lot of my youth was
Speaker 1: was lost in chasing a dream, which I don't regret
Speaker 1: that at all, but I do often have those feelings
Speaker 1: of like being sad or or or being like, man,
Speaker 1: I missed out on that. That sucks. How do you
Speaker 1: how do you overcome that? You're talking about one aspect
Speaker 1: of education and like full disclosure, like I didn't do
Speaker 1: any of those things in high school either. I didn't
Speaker 1: go to the prom, I never went to dances. I
Speaker 1: didn't feel like I fit in like you would if
Speaker 1: you look on paper, you would it would appear as
Speaker 1: if I have really like taken the traditional path. But
Speaker 1: if you actually could peel back the layers, you would
Speaker 1: be like, oh, this is nothing like what I thought
Speaker 1: it was going to be. So I didn't interesting it's
Speaker 1: different too, Like I chose not to do those things
Speaker 1: weren't important to me because I was I was the
Speaker 1: art theater kid, you know, like I was not the
Speaker 1: homecoming Like I wasn't into sport, you know, like I
Speaker 1: wasn't I really rejected a lot of that. But there
Speaker 1: is a part of at least going to college that
Speaker 1: is the social developmental part, like how you figure out
Speaker 1: like who am I and how do I create a life?
Speaker 1: That is about being my authentic self. But there are
Speaker 1: also pieces of education that are really about what's going
Speaker 1: to help me to make a living and support a
Speaker 1: family or you know, have a right livelihood. So both
Speaker 1: of those things are important. Like, there are people who
Speaker 1: are really like living the dream, who are really suffering economically.
Speaker 1: There are people who are thriving economically, but they feel
Speaker 1: like their lives are empty. So so then vibe with
Speaker 1: me for a little bit because we all, well, we
Speaker 1: now have another piece in which we can relate to.
Speaker 1: So so do you ever have those thoughts? And and
Speaker 1: and I know you had mentioned there's basically there's there's
Speaker 1: two different pieces of schooling. You know, there's the experiential
Speaker 1: part and then there's the learning part. Experiential is what
Speaker 1: I'm kind of focused on, uh for now, because it's
Speaker 1: where it's the only place. Like do I regret sitting
Speaker 1: in a professor's lab and being like, hey, I really
Speaker 1: have a question. I don't regret that stuff at all.
Speaker 1: I more regret like you had mentioned the things that
Speaker 1: helped shape a human being. You know, I think proms
Speaker 1: can they can be very shaping for people. Not necessary
Speaker 1: at all. Obviously none of them are necessary because I
Speaker 1: am here, But like, there are moments in which some
Speaker 1: people you know, I was. We were talking to Neza
Speaker 1: in the first episode of this podcast where she talks
Speaker 1: about high schools where she you know, lost her virginity,
Speaker 1: where she like where she like tried things for the
Speaker 1: first time. I know a lot of my friends drink
Speaker 1: for the first time and all of those things that
Speaker 1: I didn't experience because I was so focused on work.
Speaker 1: So telling me that you also didn't do those things,
Speaker 1: do you have any regrets that, like, do you ever think, like, man,
Speaker 1: I do wish that I had been a little bit
Speaker 1: more about the experiential part of school and not just
Speaker 1: the academic I don't regret it for like in that age,
Speaker 1: like in the high school age, I had that in
Speaker 1: other parts of my life I had definitely in college,
Speaker 1: I had that. I felt like I had a sense
Speaker 1: of community, and I was able to go to a
Speaker 1: college that I felt like, again like reflected those same
Speaker 1: values to me. And I went to a college, for example,
Speaker 1: that had like a cooperative education program, So half of
Speaker 1: the time I was on the campus studying and the
Speaker 1: other half of the time I was in paid internships,
Speaker 1: so I was actually like doing real work because yeah,
Speaker 1: because experiential education was a real value, so that when
Speaker 1: I graduated from college, I actually already had a resume
Speaker 1: UM and I also had one of the things that
Speaker 1: I think you have that people sometimes get in college
Speaker 1: but not always, is having a mentor. So I had
Speaker 1: a mentor who was my advisor in college, and she
Speaker 1: was my She she died at the age of like nine,
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, but I had a lifelong
Speaker 1: relationship with her. She she wrote my reference letter for
Speaker 1: graduate school. Like she was an important mentor in my
Speaker 1: life for my entire adult life. And so sometimes people
Speaker 1: get those in college, but sometimes you get a mentor
Speaker 1: like you have in other parts of your life and
Speaker 1: your work. So maybe you could just say a little
Speaker 1: bit about like your professional mentors, Like, yeah, absolutely for you.
Speaker 1: That's why I think it's That's why I think the
Speaker 1: importance of of separating um, which is something that you
Speaker 1: did and brought up the academia part of schooling and
Speaker 1: the experiential part of schooling, because I think it's pretty
Speaker 1: plain and simple if you're basing it off of, Hey,
Speaker 1: I want to do this job, there is a clear
Speaker 1: path in which I think you do that job. If
Speaker 1: you want to be a therapist, you go to school
Speaker 1: and you learn and get the degree and do all
Speaker 1: that stuff with therapy. If you want to be a lawyer,
Speaker 1: you do this. That part, to me is very very clear,
Speaker 1: and that's why I'm so happy that I had Like
Speaker 1: you said, I had a mentor. I went the route
Speaker 1: I think the best route that I could, which was
Speaker 1: focusing on practicing music my parents. You know, even my
Speaker 1: mentor still told me I needed to read. All of
Speaker 1: the mentor. I think I have multiple mentors still told
Speaker 1: me I should read and learn, And that's why I'm
Speaker 1: so proud. Like you mentioned, you did your path exactly
Speaker 1: the way you wanted to. I did my path exactly
Speaker 1: the way I wanted to. I think my point is
Speaker 1: more now about people who kind of have conflicting feelings
Speaker 1: or even in hindsight may have might have conflicting feelings.
Speaker 1: I have no conflicting feelings about about going to school
Speaker 1: or you know, like having a degree. I have no
Speaker 1: conflicting feelings about that. It's more the conflicting feelings about
Speaker 1: man like I didn't go to prom but I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about is like the conflicting feelings that you
Speaker 1: might feel of anything, like whether it was going to prom,
Speaker 1: which you didn't feel that because you got that social
Speaker 1: aspect out of your school. I was I'm not even
Speaker 1: talking about the things I missed out in college because
Speaker 1: my brain never even thought about college. I'm thinking, I'm
Speaker 1: just talking about the things that I was missing out
Speaker 1: in high school. And I know that a lot of people,
Speaker 1: you know, if you're part of that of a sevent
Speaker 1: of Americans who get their degree, and now we're having
Speaker 1: those feelings. So my question now is is is it
Speaker 1: helpful at all to even dwell on the past like
Speaker 1: that or is it just like a fool's Errand I
Speaker 1: think regret is a complicated emotion, and um, we could
Speaker 1: spend a whole episode, Actually we could spend a whole
Speaker 1: year just on Regret the podcast. We should make a
Speaker 1: new podcast. So one question I often ask people when
Speaker 1: they're wrestling with these questions like about education or career
Speaker 1: or whatever, is who are you doing this for? Mm hm,
Speaker 1: you know, like I'm going to go to law school
Speaker 1: or I'm gonna do this, or I'm going to do that.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean that we should only do for ourselves,
Speaker 1: because I think for a lot of us, we come
Speaker 1: from a culture or belief system that says I'm part
Speaker 1: of I am part of something bigger than and myself.
Speaker 1: But if we only do it for other people and
Speaker 1: don't include ourselves in it, I think we're more likely
Speaker 1: to feel regret because then you realize, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I just spent ten years in a career that I
Speaker 1: actually hate because my parents wanted me to do it,
Speaker 1: or because I felt like I had to be successful
Speaker 1: because there were people in my family who didn't have
Speaker 1: the opportunities that I had. So it's not that there's
Speaker 1: a right way or a wrong way there, but to
Speaker 1: really be able to ask yourself for whom am I
Speaker 1: making these choices, and am I making sure to include
Speaker 1: myself in those choices? I love that, And and actually
Speaker 1: we had we had addressed it a little bit, and
Speaker 1: it's something that I want to reinforce here, which is
Speaker 1: everything that you've done in your life, everything that I've
Speaker 1: done in my life has led me exactly where I
Speaker 1: am now. So to regret, you know, I always I
Speaker 1: wrestle with regret because I try and practice what I preach.
Speaker 1: You know, I try and practice like everything that I
Speaker 1: did got me here, So not having a problem got
Speaker 1: me exactly where I wanted, what I trade where exactly
Speaker 1: I am now for what for going to a prom? No,
Speaker 1: not at all, And that's something that really helps me.
Speaker 1: But you also brought that up, and you also brought
Speaker 1: even a better point up, which is who are you
Speaker 1: doing it for. Let's say that you get past your
Speaker 1: you know, let's say you want to leave school, you're
Speaker 1: in college, you're three years into your major, and you're like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to do this at all. I'm doing
Speaker 1: this for my parents, or I'm doing this because I
Speaker 1: think it's the right thing to do, but I actually
Speaker 1: love music, or I actually love painting. What is your
Speaker 1: advice for somebody who has that moment but they do
Speaker 1: have expectations from other people, their parents, maybe their parents
Speaker 1: are even helping them pay for school, their friends who
Speaker 1: are doing well and having success because they stayed in school,
Speaker 1: all of those pressures that come with it. What's your
Speaker 1: advice for that? I think having somebody who who can
Speaker 1: help you to clarify what's true for you, whether that's
Speaker 1: you know, as Lee said, whether it's a career counselor
Speaker 1: or a therapist, or an advisor or a mentor or
Speaker 1: a group of friends. But you know, sometimes we think
Speaker 1: we know what we want, it turns out to actually
Speaker 1: be not true. Um. The other thing is we're not
Speaker 1: trapped hopefully, So like if at a certain point down
Speaker 1: the road, even with tremendous success, like twenty years from now,
Speaker 1: you might say, you know what I actually want to be.
Speaker 1: I think I might want to take a break from
Speaker 1: music and like be a personal trainer, or I might
Speaker 1: want to be a restaurant critic, or I might want
Speaker 1: to like like John Stewart, like left his career to
Speaker 1: go have a farm in New Jersey. You know. Like,
Speaker 1: so we have and the best of circumstances, with the
Speaker 1: economic support that we need, we have choices. Like Lee's
Speaker 1: example was great, like she realized, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: have something else not only that I can do, but
Speaker 1: that I feel called to. And so regret I think
Speaker 1: comes more when we feel like we're stuck and we
Speaker 1: can't get ourselves out. But sometimes we're not stuck and
Speaker 1: we can actually like say, you know what, I don't
Speaker 1: want to work in a hospital as a medical social
Speaker 1: worker anymore. I want to go off on my own
Speaker 1: and see how this goes. And I did, and here
Speaker 1: I am. I love that. So we'll be right back.
Speaker 1: And when we come back, we are talking with Lee
Speaker 1: and Karen about how to know if a traditional path
Speaker 1: is right for you. Don't go anywhere. We are back.
Speaker 1: This is let's get into it. And we've had some
Speaker 1: pretty I didn't even know how heart felt, you know.
Speaker 1: I was kind of thinking we'd talked like and it
Speaker 1: would be like, you know, da dada school, da dada work,
Speaker 1: you know, fun, and then Karen and I just got
Speaker 1: like hella deep with it, and uh, and now we're
Speaker 1: here and we're talking about how to know if a
Speaker 1: traditional path is right for you. The three of us
Speaker 1: have all done uh pretty different paths, have different focuses
Speaker 1: and different paths in life, and so I want to have, uh,
Speaker 1: just kind of a quick round table and I'll ask
Speaker 1: one question, what do you wish you would have known
Speaker 1: before going on to continuing your studies. I guess I
Speaker 1: really wish I'd known more about what being a lawyer
Speaker 1: was like then, Like Ali mcbeel, I think that my
Speaker 1: diligence was was pretty lacking, and if I if I
Speaker 1: had done a little bit more um looking into into
Speaker 1: what into what the career was actually like as opposed
Speaker 1: to just jumping into three three years of school. You know,
Speaker 1: I might have I might have thought differently, and and
Speaker 1: maybe I would have done it, but I would have
Speaker 1: been a more educated consumer. M I like that, Karen, Um.
Speaker 1: I wish that I had known that mistakes are helpful
Speaker 1: because they help you clarify, uh and get back on
Speaker 1: the right path. Oh. I love that too. I think
Speaker 1: mine as a as the opposite, because it wasn't for continuing,
Speaker 1: but because I discontinued. Is the importance of whatever you're doing,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to do, if it is dropping out
Speaker 1: of high school, if it is dropping out of college
Speaker 1: or not going to college, the importance of whatever you
Speaker 1: want to do really treating it like it's school, really
Speaker 1: learning about it like it's school. I know, when I
Speaker 1: first stopped going to online school, I definitely didn't supplement
Speaker 1: learning and that same capacity. So I did find myself
Speaker 1: being like, what am I doing right now? As a
Speaker 1: sixteen year old kid? What am I doing? You know?
Speaker 1: And I was like, Oh, it's because I need to
Speaker 1: learn more. And that's when I started getting with the mentorship,
Speaker 1: like we had mentioned, Karen, with the friends who are
Speaker 1: like read this book about business because you're gonna be
Speaker 1: a businessman. If you're gonna own your own business, read
Speaker 1: this book about music, read this book about all these
Speaker 1: other things. So I think my advice that I would
Speaker 1: have told myself is don't stop learning in that capacity
Speaker 1: because just because you don't go to traditional school or
Speaker 1: you don't do the traditional route, keep pushing, keep you know,
Speaker 1: learning in that capacity. Treat it like it is school
Speaker 1: and not just Hey, I don't have to go to
Speaker 1: school anymore, so I can do whatever I want. Um, alright,
Speaker 1: this next question is what does the voice sound like
Speaker 1: that tells you, uh, something might not be right and
Speaker 1: it is time you to change paths or to change directions.
Speaker 1: I know for me it was it was even the
Speaker 1: voice of my father who gave me that. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm very lucky that my dad had experienced what it's
Speaker 1: like to not follow the traditional route, and he said, look,
Speaker 1: if this isn't you, it's not you. And I'm very
Speaker 1: lucky that my parents are like that. So my voice
Speaker 1: is actually not an intangible thing. It's my own dad.
Speaker 1: What about you, Karen, It's a felt sense in the body.
Speaker 1: It's like your own personal GPS that says, you know,
Speaker 1: go this way, go that way, um, and that we
Speaker 1: there's a lot of clutter and noise that just that
Speaker 1: can distract us from that that internal barometer that actually
Speaker 1: like knows where we need to go. It's other people's expectations,
Speaker 1: it's societal expectations, it's trauma, it's you know, the things
Speaker 1: we learned that maybe didn't actually service. It's all these things.
Speaker 1: And so it's really like that voice is sometimes like
Speaker 1: a little fluttering in the stomach. I think that's the
Speaker 1: thing is is it's a good note that you're pointing out,
Speaker 1: is that it doesn't have to be this loud siren
Speaker 1: in your ear that's like wrong way, wrong way. It
Speaker 1: could be something as simple as a feeling. And you
Speaker 1: have to have that that vulnerability honestly with yourself to
Speaker 1: hear that Lee. Anything to add I would say to
Speaker 1: pay paying attention to the times when something happens or
Speaker 1: you achieve something and you feel like a genuine kind
Speaker 1: of spark of joy as opposed to the kind of
Speaker 1: times when it's it's external. Because for me, I felt
Speaker 1: like I was I always really like school, and I
Speaker 1: like studying. I like taking tests even and getting good grades.
Speaker 1: But those things were all all kind of external, like
Speaker 1: you're doing well, and I like that, like achieved. I
Speaker 1: became sort of an achievement addict. But then there were
Speaker 1: times when the things that I that really brought me
Speaker 1: joy weren't necessarily those things. They were the times that I,
Speaker 1: you know, felt like I'd expressed myself and kind paying
Speaker 1: attention to that and not the external markers. It's hard
Speaker 1: listening to the external you and the internal you because
Speaker 1: sometimes they're telling you two different things, right, So it
Speaker 1: leads me to my next question, Karen, is there any
Speaker 1: point where you think, um, you should maybe you should
Speaker 1: stick to something that's traditional, even if it doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: feel like it's the right thing, because I know a
Speaker 1: lot of you know, it's like sometimes I hated I
Speaker 1: hated English class, and I was like, I'm dropping out
Speaker 1: because English sucks. Obviously you should stay in school just
Speaker 1: because you you know, just because you're uncomfortable at one point,
Speaker 1: or you don't like something at one point. In my career,
Speaker 1: even in music, there's things that I don't like, but
Speaker 1: I stick to it because I know that it's my passion.
Speaker 1: So I guess putting that in the traditional space, is
Speaker 1: there any moments that you feel like you should stick
Speaker 1: to it, even if it's not something that you love absolutely.
Speaker 1: What's helped me is if I am learning something or
Speaker 1: doing something that feels really hard or not like me,
Speaker 1: but I can reframe it so that I can see
Speaker 1: that there's some value for myself. Like I took trigonometry
Speaker 1: and I have not used one drop of it. I
Speaker 1: don't remember, I don't give a ship and I didn't
Speaker 1: then and I don't now, and I'm not even sure
Speaker 1: how I passed the class. But if somebody had actually
Speaker 1: been able to say to me, this is how it
Speaker 1: actually might serve you later, like in a way that
Speaker 1: was actually true, I might have been willing to My
Speaker 1: brain does not work that way. I was never going
Speaker 1: to be good at that. But I have found it
Speaker 1: helpful when I'm learning something that's really hard or doing
Speaker 1: something that doesn't feel quite like me, to be able
Speaker 1: to ask myself, is there anything here for me that
Speaker 1: is worth the suffering that I'm enduring? And sometimes it's
Speaker 1: just I can pay my bills right, Like, so there
Speaker 1: is the economic reality, but there might also be like
Speaker 1: Lee was talking earlier about, like is going through law school,
Speaker 1: like applicable or helpful to other careers. Probably sometimes yes
Speaker 1: and sometimes no. But if there isn't anything, if it's
Speaker 1: not going to give you anything of value, let it go.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that. Now. That's the thing
Speaker 1: I love about this podcast is even though we all
Speaker 1: have different paths, the three of us are all walking
Speaker 1: testimonies or whether it's your actual job, Karen, to advise
Speaker 1: people to chase happiness and not chase a diploma or
Speaker 1: or a job unless it is truly what is internally
Speaker 1: inspiring you. Um do either of you have and we'll
Speaker 1: start with you Lee, any other wisdom that you have
Speaker 1: just on this topic. I mean, I think we've had
Speaker 1: such great conversations today about going the traditional route, sticking
Speaker 1: a traditional route, or if not, you know, making that
Speaker 1: plan to change your life, following the steps to figuring
Speaker 1: out what it is that you really want to chase
Speaker 1: and if it if it involves going to school, great
Speaker 1: or if it just involves educating in other ways also great.
Speaker 1: So is there any final wisdom that you guys have
Speaker 1: to share before we wrap this up? I would just
Speaker 1: say that that I think knowing that even you know,
Speaker 1: even when you're doing what you're meant to do or
Speaker 1: that you love to do, it will still sometimes feel
Speaker 1: really difficult and that and that and being sort of
Speaker 1: okay with that, and it's sort of like what you're
Speaker 1: saying before, not just like I hate, like I don't
Speaker 1: want to do this, you know, forget it, and kind
Speaker 1: of rolling with that a little is something that advice
Speaker 1: I give myself often because when you give something up,
Speaker 1: it's natural to think, well, you know, I gave up
Speaker 1: something to do this, and now it's difficult for me
Speaker 1: right now, and so was that was that worth it?
Speaker 1: And just kind of rolling with with that a little bit? Yeah,
Speaker 1: chasing your dreams is gonna be hard. And that's the thing,
Speaker 1: the biggest thing. All three of us are now very
Speaker 1: happy doing what we love doing, but all three of us,
Speaker 1: none of us have a perfect, easy, smooth sailing time.
Speaker 1: It's very you know, it's very much so still a grind,
Speaker 1: still a struggle, but at the end of day, it's
Speaker 1: a payoff because we are in fact chasing our dreams. Karen,
Speaker 1: any last wisdom to add, Yeah, I want to say,
Speaker 1: chase integrity. Oh, because sometimes chasing happiness can like we
Speaker 1: are socialized to think certain things are going to make
Speaker 1: us happy again, sort of the inside versus outside thing.
Speaker 1: But if you're chasing your integrity and you are living
Speaker 1: your life in alignment with your integrity, the happiness will
Speaker 1: come right. Your dreams will be part of that, and
Speaker 1: your sense of wholeness as a human being will be intact. Wow,
Speaker 1: that's beautiful. Let's leave it at that. Chase integrity, chase
Speaker 1: your dreams and if it means the traditional route, go
Speaker 1: for it and work hard. And if it doesn't, then
Speaker 1: chase whatever it is and learn and stay stay educating
Speaker 1: yourself and chasing that integrity. That's a great way to
Speaker 1: end it. At this point, I'm gonna take my headphones
Speaker 1: off and it's done. Um. But thank you Karen, and
Speaker 1: thank you Lee. I want to this is the last
Speaker 1: moment of the episode. Uh, and we do something all
Speaker 1: the time. It's not so shameless promo. So Lee, I
Speaker 1: want you to just promote the hell out of something
Speaker 1: that you're working on right now. Promote your social media accounts,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to promote. It's your time. Well, I
Speaker 1: I am currently basically working on a book that is
Speaker 1: not coming out yet, so when the time comes, I
Speaker 1: will do I will definitely. We're gonna bring you back
Speaker 1: on here to do your shameless bring me back on
Speaker 1: you bring me back on? I love it? And where
Speaker 1: can people find you on social media? Um lee abs
Speaker 1: at Instagram, um and Twitter amazing. Make sure you check
Speaker 1: that out. Karen, you're a pro at this not so
Speaker 1: shameless promo. Let's hear it. Uh. People can find me
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram at k e replenish or you
Speaker 1: can go to my website Karen Erlkman dot com. I
Speaker 1: love it and you know where you can find me
Speaker 1: at alex Iona on all platforms ai o n oh,
Speaker 1: the best part about having a weird last name. I
Speaker 1: am so grateful that you came in here uh and
Speaker 1: listen to this podcast. Please make sure you subscribed to
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Speaker 1: Make sure you leave us a little bit of a
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Speaker 1: if that's a doozy