WEBVTT - Conjoined Dreamers 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.920 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how stup 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:15.000 works dot com. Hey, wasn't the stuff with blow your Mind? 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:17.759 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Seger. In 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:20.319 the last episode in the series this week, we started 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:22.320 off by talking about a couple of different dream worlds. 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:25.880 We talked about love Craft with Cadath and author and 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.840 the Plateau of Lange. We talked about Boheas and his 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.440 circular ruins. The one I immediately turned to is a 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:37.680 comic book one. Uh it is Little Nemo in Slumberland. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:39.440 Have you ever read these book? I've never read them. 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:42.400 There By A windsor Mackay, there were these great turn 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:46.560 of the century comic strips that appeared in newspapers, and 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.159 they were these huge comic strips to not like the 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.519 ones that were used to nowadays. But every one of 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:55.200 them began with this kid named Nemo falling asleep, falling 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:57.760 into a dream world, having an adventure, and then waking 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.440 up in the very last panel. So I always think 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.480 of Little Nemo in Slumberland. But then, uh we, I 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.559 guess should acknowledge that that Doctor Strange movies coming out 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.240 in the next month or two, and Marvel has their 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.760 own like dream universe, and there's like, like a major 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:16.840 Doctor Strange villain is Nightmare. He's like personification of nightmares. 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:19.360 Be interesting to what exceed to what extent they incorporate 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.080 dreams and they're going a whole like the whole quantum 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.240 science sort of angle. Yeah, I don't know, I'm curious too. 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:28.839 I mean a lot of the interviews about that movie 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.160 have have talked about, you know, how they're going to 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:33.720 explore alternate realities and things like that. So we'll see, 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:36.360 we'll see. Maybe maybe Nightmare in the Dream Rails will 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.360 be in Doctor Strange two or something like that if 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.360 it does well enough. But then of course there's wonder Land, 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.720 there's Odds, there's even the Matrix is kind of like 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.280 a dream world, right. That is something something to that 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:51.720 keep coming kept coming up for me, is that to 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:55.120 a large extent, virtual reality is the new dream world. 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.080 And a lot of these shows they kind of kind 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.360 of you can you can sort of trade in and 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.600 out in their treatment of dreams or virtuality. Yeah, and 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:05.640 with the virtual reality thing, like it kind of makes 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:09.400 me think of, um, the very popular nineties comic The Sandman, 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:13.040 the Neil Game Sandman book. There's there's also sort of 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:17.399 like a major aspect of like confronting reality. We talked 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:19.360 about this in the last episode. Wh's real, What's not? 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:21.000 How do you know when you're in a dream? That's 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:25.120 a very common trope and dream fiction. Yeah. One that 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:29.760 instantly comes to mind too, Dreamscape. Did you ever see this? No? 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.200 I haven't seen that. It's pretty great, has some some 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.160 wonderful effects. There's a guy that turns into a serpent 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:38.760 in the dream. It's okay, it's pretty cool. Um, there's 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:40.799 night Marion Elm Street. I don't think he's ever been 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.840 given the really a neuroscientific treatment um, which I think 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.799 would be interesting. Like after I saw Inception the first time, 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:50.360 I was like, this is pretty good, but I would 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.760 like to see an inception Nightmarre Nemes Street cross over. 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.720 There's your reboot for Nightmare in Elm Streets. And they 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:58.400 tried that a couple of years ago and it didn't 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.440 quite work out. I love the reboot, but me, most 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.600 people did not like it. Um. Another piece of fiction 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:09.720 that comes to mind my My, the fantasy series I'm 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.960 obsessed with by our Scott Baker. There's a there there 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.000 are these groups there's a group of sorcerers in it 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:20.280 uh and they are known as the Mandate, and they 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.880 are carrying on this tradition of warning the world about 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.840 this uh, this threat that that is in the Far North, 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.800 that was was fought and defeated in a huge, nearly 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:35.960 catastrophic war centuries and centuries ago, and they they're warning 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:38.720 everyone that could come back. And every is part of 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:42.720 your initiation. Each one of these Mandate sorcerers uh uh 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:47.800 absorbs the dreams of the schools founder Sessawatha. So every 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:52.680 night they're plagued with nightmares of this first Great War, 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.880 the first Apocalypse. So that then then in the Waking War, 0:03:56.280 --> 0:04:01.640 they have this this fresh and intense um reminder of 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.760 why they need to warn everyone. That reminds me of 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:08.280 two things of No, I'm gonna try not to spoil 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:10.320 it too much, but Game of Thrones there's a lot 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.440 of that going on in there with a brand he's 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.400 having these like prophetic dreams. Yeah, they give a very 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:20.200 weird space that I'm I think it's still they're still developing, 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.040 they're still unrolling exactly how dreams work in that world. 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.640 And then uh, we're gonna talk about in this episode, 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:29.000 but various tribes around the world that that have dreams 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.760 is like a major important part of their culture and 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.320 how they decide to do things as a community. Yeah, 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:36.360 all right, before we move on, we need to get 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.360 a little bit of house cleaning out of the way. Yeah. 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:42.359 So this week's episodes, if you haven't listened to the 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:45.480 previous one, are sponsored by Falling Water, which is a 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:50.240 new TV show coming out on octobert on USA Network. 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:53.760 They approached us about working together. Yeah, they said, hey, 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:55.640 we like to sponsor a couple of episodes on dreams, 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.520 and we said, well, that's great because we would love 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.400 to do a couple of episodes on dreams. Uh. And 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:02.440 we've covered the topic in the past, we'll cover it 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.560 again in the future. So it's a perfect match. We'll 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.120 talk more about it in the sponsor breaks but and 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:08.880 I don't want to spoil it too much. Falling Water 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.760 is the science fiction mystery about entering other people's dreams. 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.240 This episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind Though, is 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:19.480 gonna be about Carl Young, the collective unconscious, and the 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:24.240 current science of linked dreaming. And like last episode, we 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:29.160 were put in touch with Dr Moran Surf, who's a neuroscientist, 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:30.719 and we're gonna touch base with him at the end 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:32.440 of this episode and talk to him about some of 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.760 the ideas and research that we're throwing around. Uh in 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:37.920 these in the in the pair of these episodes. Yeah, 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.320 so we're gonna talk about the collective unconscious and young, 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:44.280 We're gonna talk about conjoined and shared dreaming. Should be 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.279 quite inexperience. But let's let's start with Carl Young and 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:49.840 the collective unconscious. And I'm going to defer to you 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.120 a lot in this section because I know this is 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.200 this is more your area of expertise. Oh, I wouldn't 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:57.479 say that, but yeah, when I was in grad school, 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.280 Young came up a lot. One of my UM, one 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.680 of the professors that was on my thesis committee is 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.480 very much in the young In school of thought. He 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.840 was constantly trying to invoke young and collective unconscious and 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:15.480 archetypes into my work. UM and the other professors, like 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:19.359 many in academia, didn't think that there was a legitimate 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.279 foundation for yous work, and so they sort of pushed 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:24.599 against that. But yeah, I have some familiarity with him, 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.279 so let's touch base with him. Uh. Young was a 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:31.520 Swiss psychiatrist who founded what's known as analytic psychology. He's 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:36.799 known mainly for the descriptions of extroverted and introverted personalities 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:41.599 and his theory that there is an underlying universal understanding 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:45.279 of symbolic representations. Most of this work that we're going 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:47.520 to refer to was in the early part of the 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.360 twentieth century. Now you're probably thinking of Sigmund Freud. Well, yeah, 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:55.719 he and Sigmund Freud met in seven. They began as collaborators, 0:06:55.720 --> 0:07:00.600 but they eventually had intellectual disagreements and disliked one another's 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:05.320 approaches to psychoanalysis. Young himself felt he was more about 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.280 putting humans in a historical context and finding the meaning 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.280 and dignity of their lives in the universe. So he 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:15.280 was a pretty metaphysical guy. Yeah. I you know, I 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:18.800 haven't seen this film, but Cronenberg's David Kronenberg's two thousand 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:22.760 and eleven film A Dangerous Mind has Michael Fastbender as 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:28.160 Young and Vigo Mortison as Freud. It looked like I 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:29.920 was totally on board, and that movie just kind of 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.280 came and went, and I haven't remembered to watch it. 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.880 I think I I distinctly remember when it came out 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.280 and saying, oh, that looks good, but maybe a little serious. 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:38.960 I'll come back to that when I'm in the mood 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:41.760 for a serious movie. And I'm so rarely in the 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.040 mood for a serious good movie. I just tend to 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.920 go for goofy uh or bad movies instead. But I'll 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.200 come back to this one at some point. Uh. And 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:54.120 you know another popular cultural tie in that for me anyway, 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.440 is I'm quite fond of the Peter Gabriel song from 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.320 two Rhythm of the Heat, which has an excellent, like 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:05.960 accelerating drumbeat, but when lyrics that say, like the rhythm 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.840 is around me, the rhythm has control, the rhythms inside me, 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.400 the rhythm has my soul. And apparently this is he 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.360 based the lyrics here, and that the songs structure itself 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:19.280 on Carl Young's experiences while observing a group uh of 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:23.160 nocturnal ritual dancers in the in the Sudan. So this 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.080 is one of the things about Young that I didn't 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.920 really know until doing the research for this episode. I mean, 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:31.120 he was pretty well traveled. It wasn't like he was 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:33.360 just sitting at home spitting these theories out and not 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.000 like applying them to the real world. He was observing 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:40.480 a lot of I guess, anthropological ways that the collective 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:42.880 unconscious may manifest. Yeah, I mean a lot of academics 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.520 so certainly of his time even would have been perfectly 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:47.440 happy to just remain in the in their study and 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:48.840 write all this. But he went out in the field. 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.280 So apparently he found something dark, primal and irresistible, and 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:56.160 the accelerating rhythm that these individuals were creating, and he 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:57.880 feared was going to possess him, that he might be 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:01.880 sucked into their collective psychoical experience. Huh. Here's here's a 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.680 quote from what he said. The natives easily fall into 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.640 a virtual state of possession. That was the case. Now 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.800 is eleven o'clock approached, their excitement began to get out 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.600 of bounds. The dancers were being transformed into a wild horde, 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:19.040 and I became worried about how it would end. Well, 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:23.040 So let's we're gonna try to keep it brief because honestly, 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.079 and I wouldn't be surprised if this already exists out there. 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.880 But you could have an entire podcast dedicated to young um. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.839 But we've only got so much time here. Here's a 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:37.040 brief look at his psychological theories. He began working with 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:41.640 word association to uncovered groups of emotionally charged ideas that 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.360 were stored in people. Uh. He coined these terms. This 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.560 is the term complex that we use nowadays. And he 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:53.040 connected this to a psycho somatic theory about schizophrenia, in 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:58.800 which he thought complexes influenced our biochemistry, which then subsequently 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:02.160 lead to mental illness. He also brought about the term 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.760 which you've probably heard about, individual ation. Uh. He thought 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:10.280 that despite a normal life, all people undergo a developmental 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:14.600 journey that is signposted for them by archetypal images. Now, 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:16.640 if you listen to our episode on myth that we 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:18.840 did a couple of months ago, we we delved into 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.040 that quite a bit. We we talked about more about 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:26.040 Young's archetypal work and symbolic work than the collective unconscious, 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.480 but it's there too. And at the end of his life, 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:33.359 he theorized that the more uncertain we are about ourselves, 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:38.240 the more we have kinship with all things, because everyone 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.080 is uncertain, from I don't know, uh, squirrel out in 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.920 the yard to me and this podcast studio. Uh. And 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.239 he said the alienation that he received from the science community, 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.559 which I referred to earlier, that manifested as what he 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:57.760 called an unexpected unfamiliarity within himself. So this kind of 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:00.520 brought that about for him. Now, archy types and myth 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:02.680 big one, right, And I said we talked about earlier. 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:04.600 If you, if you weren't there for that episode, here's 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:08.280 a quick breakdown. He became increasingly interested in the connection 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:12.439 between human psychology and our myths, folklore, and fairy tales, 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.600 and he began to interpret thought processes as a result 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:20.800 of mythological symbolism. The collective unconscious, which we're going to 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.319 talk about a lot today, was how these archetypal images 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:28.880 manifested despite cultural differences around the world, right, Like people 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.760 in a tribe in the Amazon are having very similar 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:37.760 archetypal images to somebody in London, for instance. His evidence 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.680 was that there are strong parallels in dream imagery across 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:46.160 all these different cultures, and collective unconscious represented a form 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.800 of the unconscious mind, memories and impulses that were not 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.439 aware of That's what he's referring to when he says unconscious. 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.559 He thought that that was common to all of mankind 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:59.480 as a whole. And originated with our inherited structure of 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.200 the brain. So he thought of it as being like 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:05.600 a biological structure of the brain that all humans shared. So, 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.959 in other words, it's the aspect of your psyche that 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:13.760 stems not from personal experience and conditioning that's personal unconsciousness, 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.480 but from everything that came before in the conscious experience 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:20.600 of humanity. It's not a personal acquisition, but a psychic heritage. 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.079 It's not the realm of complexes, but of archetypes. It's 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.440 the deep dark waters, and the personal consciousness is the 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.959 sunlit shallows. Yeah, and I wanna touch on this briefly. 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:35.559 To Young wasn't entirely consistent with how he regarded collective 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.440 unconscious uh. So, for instance, sometimes he thought of it 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.000 as being connected to genetics, more biological and saying earlier. 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.480 The other times he would talk about it as being 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:49.400 a demonstration of communion with something divine, a space outside 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.400 of ourselves that we all access. Uh, similar to the 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.319 when we were just talking about Frederick van Eden in 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.720 our last episode. It's kind of something outside of ourselves 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:01.920 that's influencing our dreams. So it's not quite easy to 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.959 pin down Young on like what you know what he's 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.000 talking about here. Is he just talking about collective unconscious 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.560 as like being a biological phenomenon we all share, or 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.000 is it like he really believes in some kind of 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:18.120 astral space that we all access together, or you know, 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:20.920 just in reading some of this stuff about the encountering 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:25.120 the drummers, um and and the rhythm and then looking 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:26.400 at this, it seems like he was a guy that 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.920 was was very open about not only his his own uncertainties, 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.800 but but open to how everything might actually connect. So 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.880 he had this idea of the unconscious, the collective unconscious, uh, 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:40.840 that that he very much believed in, and he but 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.600 we have, had validity to it, but was perhaps open 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:48.040 to exactly how it connected with the universe. I think so. Yeah. 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:52.280 I think he was primarily concerned with the not just 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.560 the human project, but sort of like the universal project, right, 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:59.880 and he wanted to know what maybe the ultimate question 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.359 what am I doing here? What? It is very existential 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.120 right now, speaking of that question what am I doing here? 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.800 One might very well ask that question about the collective unconscious? 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:13.079 What what's the possible application for all of this aside 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:17.400 from just uh, you know, staring into your nown navel. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:20.080 that's true, and a lot of academics, including some of 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.680 my thesis committee, would have asked that question. Well, Young's 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.920 theories are more prevalent than any application of his actual ideas, 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.920 especially when we're talking about therapeutic practice of psychology. But 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:36.560 his word association tests that I mentioned, that's become a 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.880 standard for clinical psychology with rating scales that have been 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:42.240 designed to test personality. I think a lot of us 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.160 have taken so, so this would be like the therapist 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:48.440 is saying like father, king, mother in these words, and 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:50.240 you tell them what them, what they mean to you? 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.480 I think so. Yeah, But I think it's I think 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.160 maybe that's closer to what he was doing, and that's 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:59.400 evolved into sort of a more complex version of the test, 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:03.360 more like the BuzzFeed type quiz of like what Game 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.320 of Thrones character? Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, that's 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:13.000 really been his influences on BuzzFeed quizzes, Uh individuation which 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.880 I mentioned earlier, that's been incorporated into many theories on 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:20.720 personality development and the myth archetype theories have been partially 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.160 embraced by those who are looking to understand humans as 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:26.960 symbol using beings and this isn't a lot of different 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:32.800 disciplines communication, art, philosophy, and definitely in linguistics. It led 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.040 to Joseph Campbell, who we also talked about in that 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.360 Myth episode, and his whole hero's journey theory, which has 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.080 been very popularized. A lot of people have heard probably 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.080 more about the hero's journey than they've heard about Young. Uh. 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:48.000 It was popularized mainly by Star Wars and George Lucas 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.040 talking about having used it while he was writing the 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.960 scripts for those. There's countless books on storytelling that also 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.160 talk about the hero's journey being like the inherent narrative 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.200 that we all turned to. You know, speaking of narratives, 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.640 I know that we have some Dune fans listening to 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.760 the episode, fans of Frank Herbert's Done and and uh 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.120 and many of them up to also fans of Brian 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:13.000 Herbert's work Um continuing on with that universe. But in 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.400 the Done novels, the Bennie Jessers Sisterhood, they possessed a 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:21.640 collective memory that was heavily based on Young's collective unconscious. 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:24.480 I didn't know that, Yeah, yeah, I knew there was 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.720 some connection, but I had not researched it to just 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.240 the other day to see like there was definite connect 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.040 continue there did that come up when you and Joe 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.440 did the Doune episode. We didn't get into a lot 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:38.360 of the heavier like psychological philosophical stuff as much. I mean, 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:40.280 we certainly could. There's there's actually a whole book out 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.480 there called the Philosophy of doone. But but certainly an 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:46.760 area we could explore. Yeah. So in the book, this 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.840 gives the Bennie jestered inborn abilities, memories and modes of behavior, 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.320 and it key points in the novels. It also opens 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:57.880 up the individual too harmful past lives essentially, And according 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.240 to Frank Herbert's son Brian, and he had studied the 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.920 work of Young and as well, and also had studied 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:08.359 the work of Young's associate, Dr Joseph b. Rhyan. So 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.439 you might be listening to this and saying, Okay, this 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.080 young character, I've heard of him before, This all sounds interesting. 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.480 Did he have any evidence for all this? Well, his 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:21.520 main evidence was what I mentioned earlier, the strong parallels 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.760 and dream imagery across different cultures. That's mainly what he's 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:28.359 stuck to um And and that's why there's a lot 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.159 of criticism leveled against him. Yeah. I mean, if your 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:33.800 if your main evidence is essentially based in the world 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:38.480 of dream um, it's it's hard. You can see where 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.159 that would be a problem. Especially you know, as we 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.280 talked about in the last episode, you can't always rely 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:47.200 on human beings talking about their memories of their dreams, 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:51.359 because memories are inherently unreliable. Yeah, because we were engaging 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:54.280 in that process where we take the nonsense of memories. Potentially, 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:55.600 this is one of view of it. If you take 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.720 the nonsense of dreams and then you're recoding it into 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.480 some new form that's more narrative or more symbolic. I mean, 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.199 that's that's that's a several step process. It's not all 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.399 housed in the dream world. And you could also you 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.440 could say that the parallels between one, uh one people's 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.240 archetypes and another. You could say that these parallels could 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.280 just easily represent universal aspects of the human experience or 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:26.160 or even the evolution of human consciousness. Um and and 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.400 and for that you wouldn't necessarily need this collective unconscious. 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:31.359 We talked about this in the Myth episode two, that 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.000 there's like a couple of other people have proposed similar theories, 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:37.960 one of which is Alan Moore. UH. Comics and no 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:42.840 novelists have his new novel Jerusalem just came out. Um, 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.639 But he has this theory of what he calls idea space, 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.080 which is very similar to the Young in idea. But 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.920 again a lot of people say Allan Wore's crack pot. 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.840 So who knows, now, why would they say Young's a 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.320 crack pot? Why would they say Alan Moore's a crack pot? Well, 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.280 here are some criticisms that are leveled against Young because 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:04.399 of his interest in connecting his theories to religion and 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:08.560 cultural myth. He's considered an embarrassment by many people in 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.760 the psychology discipline. I mentioned here my own experience with 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:18.080 this UH in my thesis Freudians. Even in the psychology 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:22.920 psychology discipline, they say his archetypes are only metaphysical ideas 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:26.360 in their existence can't be proven, so why bother. He's 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.760 also criticized for failing to offer any kind of coherent 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:34.680 model for personality development, and then others just blatantly dismiss 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.639 him as being a mystic crackpot because he doesn't offer 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:43.199 any experimental evidence for his observations al right. Well, on 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:44.720 that note, we're gonna take a quick break, and when 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:48.400 we come back, we're going to go beyond Young and 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:50.840 and to be collected unconscious, and then we will enter 0:19:51.000 --> 0:20:13.680 into the world of dreams again. All Right, we're back. 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.960 So morphic resonance. This sounds uh, here's a new term 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.760 for this episode. How does this tie into the collective unconscious? Okay, 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.399 so we're gonna go this is a This is like, 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:27.879 you know how there's Star Trek beyond. This is Young beyond. 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:33.159 So these are um ideas that tie in to Young's 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:37.359 collective unconscious, but are a little different. Morphic resonance was 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:41.399 primarily advocated for by a guy named Rupert Shell Drake, 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:45.560 and he was formally a recognized scholar in biochemistry. He 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:49.560 was a winner of his university's Botany Prize, a Harvard scholar, 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.520 he was basically a well renowned academic. Now he's shunned 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.760 by the scientific community, and he writes about the limitations 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.840 of contemporary scientific thought as being dogma ces. It reminded 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:06.280 me of our episode on Cargo cult science. His example 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:08.800 of this, and I talked about this briefly in the 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:13.520 last episode. His nemesis, his Richard Dawkins, the guy who 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:15.920 came up with the well a lot of a lot 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:20.639 of things, but mainly mimetic theory, uh. And he's interested 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:25.080 in the influence of cosmology on evolution. In this he 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.639 also thinks that the laws of nature themselves are prone 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:31.960 to evolutions, so we can't necessarily trust the laws of 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:36.720 nature because they're they're malleable, they're changing. That does sound problematic, yeah, 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:39.360 And he points to dark matter as being an example 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:42.679 of this because nothing in our science can begin to 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:45.280 explain it. And I'm just gonna give a little stuff 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.760 to blow your mind, uh insight into that. How many 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:50.840 times have we sat around and said we should do 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.160 an episode on dark matter and then we start looking 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.160 into it and we're like, oh boy, this is tough. 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:59.280 It's uh. It's definitely often refer to these as the 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.560 wing pool topics because it's like a swimming pool where 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:06.240 there's there's a deep drop off between the shallow and 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.800 the deep end. It's not a gradual zero entry scenario, 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:13.080 so that those those topics can be a little intimidating 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:16.200 to go after, but they can be fulfilling. So we'll 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:18.240 maybe we'll get around a dark matter at some point. Yeah, 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:22.840 one day. Sheldrake himself, as a child was fascinated with pigeons, 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:24.879 and this is important. I'm not just bringing up you 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:29.000 know something he liked. Uh. He especially liked that you 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:31.520 could release them far away from home, and yet they 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:33.919 would always make their way back, right, kind of like 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:36.840 the ravens and Game of Thrones. They always find their 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:39.520 way back. That's why we call him homing pigeons. In school, 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:44.720 he realized science couldn't yet explain homing pigeons, and they 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.920 just talked about it as being kind of an unobservable mystery. 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:50.720 So he became interested in the idea that biology and 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:55.600