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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how stup

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Speaker 1: works dot com. Hey, wasn't the stuff with blow your Mind?

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Seger. In

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Speaker 1: the last episode in the series this week, we started

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Speaker 1: off by talking about a couple of different dream worlds.

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Speaker 1: We talked about love Craft with Cadath and author and

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Speaker 1: the Plateau of Lange. We talked about Boheas and his

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Speaker 1: circular ruins. The one I immediately turned to is a

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Speaker 1: comic book one. Uh it is Little Nemo in Slumberland.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever read these book? I've never read them.

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Speaker 1: There By A windsor Mackay, there were these great turn

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Speaker 1: of the century comic strips that appeared in newspapers, and

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Speaker 1: they were these huge comic strips to not like the

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Speaker 1: ones that were used to nowadays. But every one of

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Speaker 1: them began with this kid named Nemo falling asleep, falling

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Speaker 1: into a dream world, having an adventure, and then waking

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Speaker 1: up in the very last panel. So I always think

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Speaker 1: of Little Nemo in Slumberland. But then, uh we, I

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Speaker 1: guess should acknowledge that that Doctor Strange movies coming out

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Speaker 1: in the next month or two, and Marvel has their

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Speaker 1: own like dream universe, and there's like, like a major

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Speaker 1: Doctor Strange villain is Nightmare. He's like personification of nightmares.

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Speaker 1: Be interesting to what exceed to what extent they incorporate

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Speaker 1: dreams and they're going a whole like the whole quantum

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Speaker 1: science sort of angle. Yeah, I don't know, I'm curious too.

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of the interviews about that movie

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Speaker 1: have have talked about, you know, how they're going to

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Speaker 1: explore alternate realities and things like that. So we'll see,

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Speaker 1: we'll see. Maybe maybe Nightmare in the Dream Rails will

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Speaker 1: be in Doctor Strange two or something like that if

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Speaker 1: it does well enough. But then of course there's wonder Land,

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Speaker 1: there's Odds, there's even the Matrix is kind of like

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Speaker 1: a dream world, right. That is something something to that

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Speaker 1: keep coming kept coming up for me, is that to

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Speaker 1: a large extent, virtual reality is the new dream world.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of these shows they kind of kind

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Speaker 1: of you can you can sort of trade in and

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Speaker 1: out in their treatment of dreams or virtuality. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: with the virtual reality thing, like it kind of makes

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Speaker 1: me think of, um, the very popular nineties comic The Sandman,

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Speaker 1: the Neil Game Sandman book. There's there's also sort of

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Speaker 1: like a major aspect of like confronting reality. We talked

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Speaker 1: about this in the last episode. Wh's real, What's not?

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Speaker 1: How do you know when you're in a dream? That's

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Speaker 1: a very common trope and dream fiction. Yeah. One that

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Speaker 1: instantly comes to mind too, Dreamscape. Did you ever see this? No?

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen that. It's pretty great, has some some

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Speaker 1: wonderful effects. There's a guy that turns into a serpent

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Speaker 1: in the dream. It's okay, it's pretty cool. Um, there's

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Speaker 1: night Marion Elm Street. I don't think he's ever been

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Speaker 1: given the really a neuroscientific treatment um, which I think

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Speaker 1: would be interesting. Like after I saw Inception the first time,

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is pretty good, but I would

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Speaker 1: like to see an inception Nightmarre Nemes Street cross over.

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Speaker 1: There's your reboot for Nightmare in Elm Streets. And they

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Speaker 1: tried that a couple of years ago and it didn't

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Speaker 1: quite work out. I love the reboot, but me, most

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Speaker 1: people did not like it. Um. Another piece of fiction

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Speaker 1: that comes to mind my My, the fantasy series I'm

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Speaker 1: obsessed with by our Scott Baker. There's a there there

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Speaker 1: are these groups there's a group of sorcerers in it

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Speaker 1: uh and they are known as the Mandate, and they

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Speaker 1: are carrying on this tradition of warning the world about

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Speaker 1: this uh, this threat that that is in the Far North,

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Speaker 1: that was was fought and defeated in a huge, nearly

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Speaker 1: catastrophic war centuries and centuries ago, and they they're warning

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Speaker 1: everyone that could come back. And every is part of

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Speaker 1: your initiation. Each one of these Mandate sorcerers uh uh

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Speaker 1: absorbs the dreams of the schools founder Sessawatha. So every

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Speaker 1: night they're plagued with nightmares of this first Great War,

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Speaker 1: the first Apocalypse. So that then then in the Waking War,

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Speaker 1: they have this this fresh and intense um reminder of

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Speaker 1: why they need to warn everyone. That reminds me of

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Speaker 1: two things of No, I'm gonna try not to spoil

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Speaker 1: it too much, but Game of Thrones there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of that going on in there with a brand he's

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Speaker 1: having these like prophetic dreams. Yeah, they give a very

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Speaker 1: weird space that I'm I think it's still they're still developing,

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Speaker 1: they're still unrolling exactly how dreams work in that world.

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Speaker 1: And then uh, we're gonna talk about in this episode,

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Speaker 1: but various tribes around the world that that have dreams

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Speaker 1: is like a major important part of their culture and

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Speaker 1: how they decide to do things as a community. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, before we move on, we need to get

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Speaker 1: a little bit of house cleaning out of the way. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So this week's episodes, if you haven't listened to the

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Speaker 1: previous one, are sponsored by Falling Water, which is a

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Speaker 1: new TV show coming out on octobert on USA Network.

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Speaker 1: They approached us about working together. Yeah, they said, hey,

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Speaker 1: we like to sponsor a couple of episodes on dreams,

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Speaker 1: and we said, well, that's great because we would love

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Speaker 1: to do a couple of episodes on dreams. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: we've covered the topic in the past, we'll cover it

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Speaker 1: again in the future. So it's a perfect match. We'll

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Speaker 1: talk more about it in the sponsor breaks but and

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Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil it too much. Falling Water

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Speaker 1: is the science fiction mystery about entering other people's dreams.

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Speaker 1: This episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind Though, is

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Speaker 1: gonna be about Carl Young, the collective unconscious, and the

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Speaker 1: current science of linked dreaming. And like last episode, we

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Speaker 1: were put in touch with Dr Moran Surf, who's a neuroscientist,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna touch base with him at the end

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Speaker 1: of this episode and talk to him about some of

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Speaker 1: the ideas and research that we're throwing around. Uh in

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Speaker 1: these in the in the pair of these episodes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we're gonna talk about the collective unconscious and young,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about conjoined and shared dreaming. Should be

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Speaker 1: quite inexperience. But let's let's start with Carl Young and

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Speaker 1: the collective unconscious. And I'm going to defer to you

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Speaker 1: a lot in this section because I know this is

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Speaker 1: this is more your area of expertise. Oh, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say that, but yeah, when I was in grad school,

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Speaker 1: Young came up a lot. One of my UM, one

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Speaker 1: of the professors that was on my thesis committee is

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Speaker 1: very much in the young In school of thought. He

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Speaker 1: was constantly trying to invoke young and collective unconscious and

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Speaker 1: archetypes into my work. UM and the other professors, like

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Speaker 1: many in academia, didn't think that there was a legitimate

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Speaker 1: foundation for yous work, and so they sort of pushed

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Speaker 1: against that. But yeah, I have some familiarity with him,

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Speaker 1: so let's touch base with him. Uh. Young was a

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Speaker 1: Swiss psychiatrist who founded what's known as analytic psychology. He's

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Speaker 1: known mainly for the descriptions of extroverted and introverted personalities

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Speaker 1: and his theory that there is an underlying universal understanding

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Speaker 1: of symbolic representations. Most of this work that we're going

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Speaker 1: to refer to was in the early part of the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century. Now you're probably thinking of Sigmund Freud. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he and Sigmund Freud met in seven. They began as collaborators,

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Speaker 1: but they eventually had intellectual disagreements and disliked one another's

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Speaker 1: approaches to psychoanalysis. Young himself felt he was more about

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Speaker 1: putting humans in a historical context and finding the meaning

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Speaker 1: and dignity of their lives in the universe. So he

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Speaker 1: was a pretty metaphysical guy. Yeah. I you know, I

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Speaker 1: haven't seen this film, but Cronenberg's David Kronenberg's two thousand

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Speaker 1: and eleven film A Dangerous Mind has Michael Fastbender as

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Speaker 1: Young and Vigo Mortison as Freud. It looked like I

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Speaker 1: was totally on board, and that movie just kind of

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Speaker 1: came and went, and I haven't remembered to watch it.

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Speaker 1: I think I I distinctly remember when it came out

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Speaker 1: and saying, oh, that looks good, but maybe a little serious.

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Speaker 1: I'll come back to that when I'm in the mood

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Speaker 1: for a serious movie. And I'm so rarely in the

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Speaker 1: mood for a serious good movie. I just tend to

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Speaker 1: go for goofy uh or bad movies instead. But I'll

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Speaker 1: come back to this one at some point. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: you know another popular cultural tie in that for me anyway,

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Speaker 1: is I'm quite fond of the Peter Gabriel song from

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Speaker 1: two Rhythm of the Heat, which has an excellent, like

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Speaker 1: accelerating drumbeat, but when lyrics that say, like the rhythm

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Speaker 1: is around me, the rhythm has control, the rhythms inside me,

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Speaker 1: the rhythm has my soul. And apparently this is he

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Speaker 1: based the lyrics here, and that the songs structure itself

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Speaker 1: on Carl Young's experiences while observing a group uh of

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Speaker 1: nocturnal ritual dancers in the in the Sudan. So this

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Speaker 1: is one of the things about Young that I didn't

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Speaker 1: really know until doing the research for this episode. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he was pretty well traveled. It wasn't like he was

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Speaker 1: just sitting at home spitting these theories out and not

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Speaker 1: like applying them to the real world. He was observing

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Speaker 1: a lot of I guess, anthropological ways that the collective

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Speaker 1: unconscious may manifest. Yeah, I mean a lot of academics

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Speaker 1: so certainly of his time even would have been perfectly

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Speaker 1: happy to just remain in the in their study and

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Speaker 1: write all this. But he went out in the field.

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Speaker 1: So apparently he found something dark, primal and irresistible, and

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Speaker 1: the accelerating rhythm that these individuals were creating, and he

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Speaker 1: feared was going to possess him, that he might be

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Speaker 1: sucked into their collective psychoical experience. Huh. Here's here's a

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Speaker 1: quote from what he said. The natives easily fall into

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Speaker 1: a virtual state of possession. That was the case. Now

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Speaker 1: is eleven o'clock approached, their excitement began to get out

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Speaker 1: of bounds. The dancers were being transformed into a wild horde,

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Speaker 1: and I became worried about how it would end. Well,

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Speaker 1: So let's we're gonna try to keep it brief because honestly,

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Speaker 1: and I wouldn't be surprised if this already exists out there.

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Speaker 1: But you could have an entire podcast dedicated to young um.

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Speaker 1: But we've only got so much time here. Here's a

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Speaker 1: brief look at his psychological theories. He began working with

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Speaker 1: word association to uncovered groups of emotionally charged ideas that

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Speaker 1: were stored in people. Uh. He coined these terms. This

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Speaker 1: is the term complex that we use nowadays. And he

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Speaker 1: connected this to a psycho somatic theory about schizophrenia, in

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Speaker 1: which he thought complexes influenced our biochemistry, which then subsequently

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Speaker 1: lead to mental illness. He also brought about the term

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Speaker 1: which you've probably heard about, individual ation. Uh. He thought

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Speaker 1: that despite a normal life, all people undergo a developmental

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Speaker 1: journey that is signposted for them by archetypal images. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you listen to our episode on myth that we

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Speaker 1: did a couple of months ago, we we delved into

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Speaker 1: that quite a bit. We we talked about more about

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Speaker 1: Young's archetypal work and symbolic work than the collective unconscious,

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Speaker 1: but it's there too. And at the end of his life,

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Speaker 1: he theorized that the more uncertain we are about ourselves,

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Speaker 1: the more we have kinship with all things, because everyone

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Speaker 1: is uncertain, from I don't know, uh, squirrel out in

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Speaker 1: the yard to me and this podcast studio. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: he said the alienation that he received from the science community,

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Speaker 1: which I referred to earlier, that manifested as what he

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Speaker 1: called an unexpected unfamiliarity within himself. So this kind of

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Speaker 1: brought that about for him. Now, archy types and myth

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Speaker 1: big one, right, And I said we talked about earlier.

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Speaker 1: If you, if you weren't there for that episode, here's

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Speaker 1: a quick breakdown. He became increasingly interested in the connection

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Speaker 1: between human psychology and our myths, folklore, and fairy tales,

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Speaker 1: and he began to interpret thought processes as a result

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Speaker 1: of mythological symbolism. The collective unconscious, which we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about a lot today, was how these archetypal images

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Speaker 1: manifested despite cultural differences around the world, right, Like people

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Speaker 1: in a tribe in the Amazon are having very similar

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Speaker 1: archetypal images to somebody in London, for instance. His evidence

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Speaker 1: was that there are strong parallels in dream imagery across

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Speaker 1: all these different cultures, and collective unconscious represented a form

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Speaker 1: of the unconscious mind, memories and impulses that were not

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Speaker 1: aware of That's what he's referring to when he says unconscious.

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Speaker 1: He thought that that was common to all of mankind

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Speaker 1: as a whole. And originated with our inherited structure of

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Speaker 1: the brain. So he thought of it as being like

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Speaker 1: a biological structure of the brain that all humans shared. So,

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Speaker 1: in other words, it's the aspect of your psyche that

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Speaker 1: stems not from personal experience and conditioning that's personal unconsciousness,

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Speaker 1: but from everything that came before in the conscious experience

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Speaker 1: of humanity. It's not a personal acquisition, but a psychic heritage.

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Speaker 1: It's not the realm of complexes, but of archetypes. It's

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Speaker 1: the deep dark waters, and the personal consciousness is the

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Speaker 1: sunlit shallows. Yeah, and I wanna touch on this briefly.

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Speaker 1: To Young wasn't entirely consistent with how he regarded collective

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Speaker 1: unconscious uh. So, for instance, sometimes he thought of it

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Speaker 1: The other times he would talk about it as being

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Speaker 1: a demonstration of communion with something divine, a space outside

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Speaker 1: of ourselves that we all access. Uh, similar to the

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Speaker 1: when we were just talking about Frederick van Eden in

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Speaker 1: our last episode. It's kind of something outside of ourselves

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Speaker 1: that's influencing our dreams. So it's not quite easy to

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Speaker 1: pin down Young on like what you know what he's

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Speaker 1: talking about here. Is he just talking about collective unconscious

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Speaker 1: as like being a biological phenomenon we all share, or

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Speaker 1: is it like he really believes in some kind of

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Speaker 1: astral space that we all access together, or you know,

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Speaker 1: just in reading some of this stuff about the encountering

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Speaker 1: the drummers, um and and the rhythm and then looking

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Speaker 1: at this, it seems like he was a guy that

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Speaker 1: was was very open about not only his his own uncertainties,

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Speaker 1: but but open to how everything might actually connect. So

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Speaker 1: he had this idea of the unconscious, the collective unconscious, uh,

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Speaker 1: that that he very much believed in, and he but

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Speaker 1: we have, had validity to it, but was perhaps open

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Speaker 1: to exactly how it connected with the universe. I think so. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think he was primarily concerned with the not just

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Speaker 1: the human project, but sort of like the universal project, right,

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Speaker 1: and he wanted to know what maybe the ultimate question

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Speaker 1: what am I doing here? What? It is very existential

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Speaker 1: right now, speaking of that question what am I doing here?

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Speaker 1: One might very well ask that question about the collective unconscious?

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Speaker 1: What what's the possible application for all of this aside

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Speaker 1: from just uh, you know, staring into your nown navel. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true, and a lot of academics, including some of

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Speaker 1: my thesis committee, would have asked that question. Well, Young's

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Speaker 1: theories are more prevalent than any application of his actual ideas,

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Speaker 1: especially when we're talking about therapeutic practice of psychology. But

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Speaker 1: his word association tests that I mentioned, that's become a

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Speaker 1: standard for clinical psychology with rating scales that have been

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Speaker 1: designed to test personality. I think a lot of us

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Speaker 1: have taken so, so this would be like the therapist

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Speaker 1: is saying like father, king, mother in these words, and

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Speaker 1: you tell them what them, what they mean to you?

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Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, But I think it's I think

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Speaker 1: maybe that's closer to what he was doing, and that's

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Speaker 1: evolved into sort of a more complex version of the test,

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Speaker 1: more like the BuzzFeed type quiz of like what Game

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Speaker 1: of Thrones character? Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: really been his influences on BuzzFeed quizzes, Uh individuation which

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Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, that's been incorporated into many theories on

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Speaker 1: personality development and the myth archetype theories have been partially

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Speaker 1: embraced by those who are looking to understand humans as

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Speaker 1: symbol using beings and this isn't a lot of different

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Speaker 1: disciplines communication, art, philosophy, and definitely in linguistics. It led

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Speaker 1: to Joseph Campbell, who we also talked about in that

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Speaker 1: Myth episode, and his whole hero's journey theory, which has

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Speaker 1: been very popularized. A lot of people have heard probably

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Speaker 1: more about the hero's journey than they've heard about Young. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It was popularized mainly by Star Wars and George Lucas

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Speaker 1: talking about having used it while he was writing the

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Speaker 1: scripts for those. There's countless books on storytelling that also

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Speaker 1: talk about the hero's journey being like the inherent narrative

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Speaker 1: that we all turned to. You know, speaking of narratives,

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Speaker 1: I know that we have some Dune fans listening to

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Speaker 1: the episode, fans of Frank Herbert's Done and and uh

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Speaker 1: and many of them up to also fans of Brian

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Speaker 1: Herbert's work Um continuing on with that universe. But in

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Speaker 1: the Done novels, the Bennie Jessers Sisterhood, they possessed a

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Speaker 1: collective memory that was heavily based on Young's collective unconscious.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that, Yeah, yeah, I knew there was

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Speaker 1: some connection, but I had not researched it to just

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Speaker 1: the other day to see like there was definite connect

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Speaker 1: continue there did that come up when you and Joe

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Speaker 1: did the Doune episode. We didn't get into a lot

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Speaker 1: of the heavier like psychological philosophical stuff as much. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we certainly could. There's there's actually a whole book out

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Speaker 1: there called the Philosophy of doone. But but certainly an

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Speaker 1: area we could explore. Yeah. So in the book, this

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Speaker 1: gives the Bennie jestered inborn abilities, memories and modes of behavior,

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Speaker 1: and it key points in the novels. It also opens

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Speaker 1: up the individual too harmful past lives essentially, And according

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Speaker 1: to Frank Herbert's son Brian, and he had studied the

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Speaker 1: work of Young and as well, and also had studied

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Speaker 1: the work of Young's associate, Dr Joseph b. Rhyan. So

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Speaker 1: you might be listening to this and saying, Okay, this

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Speaker 1: young character, I've heard of him before, This all sounds interesting.

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Speaker 1: Did he have any evidence for all this? Well, his

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Speaker 1: main evidence was what I mentioned earlier, the strong parallels

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Speaker 1: and dream imagery across different cultures. That's mainly what he's

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Speaker 1: stuck to um And and that's why there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of criticism leveled against him. Yeah. I mean, if your

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Speaker 1: if your main evidence is essentially based in the world

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Speaker 1: of dream um, it's it's hard. You can see where

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Speaker 1: that would be a problem. Especially you know, as we

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Speaker 1: talked about in the last episode, you can't always rely

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Speaker 1: on human beings talking about their memories of their dreams,

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Speaker 1: because memories are inherently unreliable. Yeah, because we were engaging

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Speaker 1: in that process where we take the nonsense of memories. Potentially,

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Speaker 1: this is one of view of it. If you take

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Speaker 1: the nonsense of dreams and then you're recoding it into

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Speaker 1: some new form that's more narrative or more symbolic. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's that's that's a several step process. It's not all

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Speaker 1: housed in the dream world. And you could also you

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Speaker 1: could say that the parallels between one, uh one people's

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Speaker 1: archetypes and another. You could say that these parallels could

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Speaker 1: just easily represent universal aspects of the human experience or

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Speaker 1: or even the evolution of human consciousness. Um and and

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Speaker 1: and for that you wouldn't necessarily need this collective unconscious.

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Speaker 1: We talked about this in the Myth episode two, that

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Speaker 1: there's like a couple of other people have proposed similar theories,

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Speaker 1: one of which is Alan Moore. UH. Comics and no

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Speaker 1: novelists have his new novel Jerusalem just came out. Um,

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Speaker 1: But he has this theory of what he calls idea space,

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Speaker 1: which is very similar to the Young in idea. But

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Speaker 1: again a lot of people say Allan Wore's crack pot.

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Speaker 1: So who knows, now, why would they say Young's a

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Speaker 1: crack pot? Why would they say Alan Moore's a crack pot? Well,

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Speaker 1: here are some criticisms that are leveled against Young because

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Speaker 1: of his interest in connecting his theories to religion and

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Speaker 1: cultural myth. He's considered an embarrassment by many people in

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Speaker 1: the psychology discipline. I mentioned here my own experience with

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Speaker 1: this UH in my thesis Freudians. Even in the psychology

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Speaker 1: psychology discipline, they say his archetypes are only metaphysical ideas

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Speaker 1: in their existence can't be proven, so why bother. He's

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Speaker 1: also criticized for failing to offer any kind of coherent

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Speaker 1: model for personality development, and then others just blatantly dismiss

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Speaker 1: him as being a mystic crackpot because he doesn't offer

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Speaker 1: any experimental evidence for his observations al right. Well, on

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Speaker 1: that note, we're gonna take a quick break, and when

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Speaker 1: we come back, we're going to go beyond Young and

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Speaker 1: and to be collected unconscious, and then we will enter

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Speaker 1: into the world of dreams again. All Right, we're back.

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Speaker 1: So morphic resonance. This sounds uh, here's a new term

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Speaker 1: for this episode. How does this tie into the collective unconscious? Okay,

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Speaker 1: so we're gonna go this is a This is like,

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Speaker 1: you know how there's Star Trek beyond. This is Young beyond.

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Speaker 1: So these are um ideas that tie in to Young's

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Speaker 1: collective unconscious, but are a little different. Morphic resonance was

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Speaker 1: primarily advocated for by a guy named Rupert Shell Drake,

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Speaker 1: and he was formally a recognized scholar in biochemistry. He

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Speaker 1: was a winner of his university's Botany Prize, a Harvard scholar,

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Speaker 1: he was basically a well renowned academic. Now he's shunned

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Speaker 1: by the scientific community, and he writes about the limitations

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Speaker 1: of contemporary scientific thought as being dogma ces. It reminded

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Speaker 1: me of our episode on Cargo cult science. His example

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Speaker 1: of this, and I talked about this briefly in the

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Speaker 1: last episode. His nemesis, his Richard Dawkins, the guy who

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Speaker 1: came up with the well a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of things, but mainly mimetic theory, uh. And he's interested

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Speaker 1: in the influence of cosmology on evolution. In this he

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Speaker 1: also thinks that the laws of nature themselves are prone

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Speaker 1: to evolutions, so we can't necessarily trust the laws of

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Speaker 1: nature because they're they're malleable, they're changing. That does sound problematic, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And he points to dark matter as being an example

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Speaker 1: of this because nothing in our science can begin to

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Speaker 1: explain it. And I'm just gonna give a little stuff

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Speaker 1: to blow your mind, uh insight into that. How many

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Speaker 1: times have we sat around and said we should do

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Speaker 1: an episode on dark matter and then we start looking

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Speaker 1: into it and we're like, oh boy, this is tough.

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Speaker 1: It's uh. It's definitely often refer to these as the

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Speaker 1: wing pool topics because it's like a swimming pool where

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Speaker 1: there's there's a deep drop off between the shallow and

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Speaker 1: the deep end. It's not a gradual zero entry scenario,

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Speaker 1: so that those those topics can be a little intimidating

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Speaker 1: to go after, but they can be fulfilling. So we'll

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Speaker 1: maybe we'll get around a dark matter at some point. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one day. Sheldrake himself, as a child was fascinated with pigeons,

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Speaker 1: and this is important. I'm not just bringing up you

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Speaker 1: know something he liked. Uh. He especially liked that you

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Speaker 1: could release them far away from home, and yet they

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Speaker 1: would always make their way back, right, kind of like

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Speaker 1: the ravens and Game of Thrones. They always find their

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Speaker 1: way back. That's why we call him homing pigeons. In school,

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Speaker 1: he realized science couldn't yet explain homing pigeons, and they

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Speaker 1: just talked about it as being kind of an unobservable mystery.

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Speaker 1: So he became interested in the idea that biology and

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Speaker 1: heredity were similar to Young's collective unconscious, and that there

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Speaker 1: is a shared memory within species. This was influenced by

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Speaker 1: Hunt Henri Bergson's idea that memory isn't stored in our brain,

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Speaker 1: as it's instead a part of time and space. Memory

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Speaker 1: isn't in us again, it's like it's external to us.

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Speaker 1: So these ideas grew for shell Drake when he tried

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Speaker 1: what do you think psychedelics? Another psychedelic Avenger here, uh,

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Speaker 1: and transcendental meditation. Shell Drake now believes memory is a

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Speaker 1: function of time and not matter matter, meaning our brains,

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Speaker 1: and that it's shared by all living things. He calls

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Speaker 1: this sharing morpho genetics. And now he researches phenomena that

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Speaker 1: science dismisses. So for example, how dogs know when their

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Speaker 1: owners are coming home. You know that, like when a

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Speaker 1: dog will know before you get to the front door.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's because they're hearing is a lot better than ours. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that would be my first guy. But he's investigating that

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Speaker 1: it might have some kind of morphic resonance. Another one

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Speaker 1: is our human ability to predict when we're being stared

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Speaker 1: at from a distance. Oh, now, there's there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of interesting science to this. We actually have an older

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Speaker 1: episode on the science staring, and I know it's one

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Speaker 1: that Joe has wanted to revisit. What this reminds me again,

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Speaker 1: I go back to these comic book examples. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever read Animal Man, the DC comic character I haven't

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Speaker 1: got I haven't got around of that one. That one's

426
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 1: on the list yet another. Grant Morrison didn't create him,

427
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: but Grant Morrison had a great run on Animal Man,

428
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: and Animal Man as a character is able to tap

429
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 1: into what are called more shik fields that allow him

430
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 1: to sort of access these species memories. Now that I've

431
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: read this, I have to think that the people working

432
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: on Animal Man, especially Morrison, were influenced by Sheldrake, but

433
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 1: hit So. Sheldrake's hope is that all of this will

434
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: lead to a moment of what he calls coming out

435
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: in science, where people will be able to discuss these

436
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: topics without any fear of repercussion. So in two thousand

437
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: and eight he was actually attacked at a conference by

438
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: paranoid schizophrenic with a knife. So yeah, that's how far

439
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: this like weird division goes between like people who deem

440
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: themselves scientific and people who uh and what they see

441
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 1: as a pseudoscience. Right, that like it went so far

442
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: as it clearly provoked this this mentally ill men into

443
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: physically attacking him, but luckily he lived through it. Now

444
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 1: to to return to the collective unconscious in the dream world. Um,

445
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: of course, the idea of their being a realm of dreams,

446
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,239
Speaker 1: or even a shared realm of dreams. Uh, it's not.

447
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 1: It's not something that that young um or anyone else

448
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 1: necessarily invented. I mean, this has been something that has

449
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: been explored in older modes of belief for a time.

450
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly, there are plenty of examples where you

451
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 1: have prophetic dreams and dream communication. It is occurring between

452
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 1: especially between a divine entity and a human. But we

453
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 1: also have these ideas of a shared space. Yeah, and

454
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: we most often see those now in tribal dream world.

455
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: So Young himself actually that I was mentioning how he

456
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: kind of traveled around the world. He visited the East

457
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: African Alghani tribe in Kenya in and this is where

458
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: he came up with a term he used called big dreams,

459
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: because the al Ghani called their collective dreams big dreams,

460
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: and this was where the dreamer was dreaming for their

461
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: whole community and perhaps the whole world. It's kind of

462
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 1: a shamanic style that matched Young's theories very well. So

463
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: later on he would come to see this it's kind

464
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: of like a collective memory or bodily expression that all

465
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: humans shared due to biology. So again there this time

466
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: he's leaning on the biology thing. Uh. In the late

467
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, Catholic missionaries also discovered the Akure tribe in

468
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: the deep Amazon Uh and this is a tribe that

469
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: are semi nomadic. They number around eleven thousand people. When

470
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,479
Speaker 1: asked how they had survived in the harsh Amazon for

471
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: so long, they said it was because of the guidance

472
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: that they had received in the spirit world while they

473
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: were dreaming. So now they're referred to as the dream

474
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: people of the Amazon because they have this unique daily

475
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: ritual they call wausa or it translates into dream sharing.

476
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: So here's how it works. Every day, they get up early,

477
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: like three four am early, and they gather in family

478
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: units around their communal fire, and they consume a special

479
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: tea and drink it so much that they end up vomiting.

480
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: So it's a sort of cleansing, purging part of the ritual.

481
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: So minus the t this is this is kind of

482
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: a ritual that a lot of people in America take

483
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: part in, especially around Marty Gras. Yeah. Yeah, except for

484
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: where it's going next. I don't know if people at

485
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 1: Marty Gras sit around and do this next. So you've

486
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: got order that negative energy from vomiting up your tea.

487
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: Then everybody takes turns telling each other what they remember

488
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: from their dreams, because they believe the dreams each contain

489
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: fragments of important messages from their spirit elders or a

490
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: powerful rainforest spirit known as Eru tom uh, and this

491
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 1: spirit is sometimes seen as being manifested as sort of

492
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: like an avatar, as a panther or boa constrictor. So

493
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: the idea here is the interpreting of these dreams is

494
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: really important since no person is getting all the information individually.

495
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: It's going out to everybody in fragments, So a village

496
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: elder tries to piece all this together. And the primary

497
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: instruction that these tribes have gained from all of this

498
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: is basically live in harmony with nature. Uh So, to

499
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: give you some examples of this. The more tangible actions

500
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: that they've taken from their collective dreams include finding plants

501
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: that they need in the forest for medicine and then

502
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: figuring out how to prepare those plants as medicine and

503
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: administering certain dosages. So that seems very interesting. As children,

504
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: they're actually taught that nightmares result in personal growth, So

505
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: when you're having a nightmare, you should move toward the

506
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: threat in your nightmare so that you can conquer your

507
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: fear and realize the dreams true message. Wow, that ties

508
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: in rather nicely with the demon dream that Fred and

509
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: van Eden defined the idea that you're you're fighting the

510
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: demon and overcoming it. And then of course that ties

511
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: in with some of the theories about dream that we

512
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: have today, in which they are their simulations or they

513
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: are a problem solving scenario. Yeah. So, and again because

514
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: of these similarities that it begs the question, you know,

515
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: let's think, like young, like, is this because human beings

516
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: are biologically all having these same experiences or is it

517
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: because we're accessing something outside of ourselves. It also seems

518
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: like this is such a far more modern approach to

519
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: dreaming than anything we have in like a Western certainly

520
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: a Christian tradition, where like if you're having a demonic dream,

521
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: then it's it's something you know it's at I'm like, oh,

522
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: it's either an actual demon or something about your personal

523
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: sin that you should feel bad about. But there's we

524
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: don't have like a robust system of dealing with nightmares

525
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,719
Speaker 1: in our culture. So you remember in the last episode

526
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: we were talking about lucid dreaming and I was saying, like,

527
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: I just like it's just not for me, you know,

528
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: mainly because like I'm just not interested in that. I

529
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: just want the process to play out well. And maybe

530
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: like I'm unimaginative in this way. But uh. Similarly, like

531
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: in modern society, who likes listening to somebody else's dream? Right?

532
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: Like I so I was just listening to um uh

533
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: this podcast called nerdet and they did an episode where

534
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: they talked to a dream interpreter. And the funny bit

535
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: like at the beginning, the two hosts were talking to

536
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: each other and one host was like, I'm gonna tell

537
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: you about my dream, and the other host was like, no,

538
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear about your dream, and she said,

539
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: go talk to this dream interpreter. And then they did

540
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: that on the same way, like people go, hey, I

541
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,959
Speaker 1: had this crazy dream last night, let's try to unpack

542
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: it right, And I go, okay, See, I I feel

543
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: that the opposite on this, and I and I also

544
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: I often encounter that that that argument that that people

545
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: don't like hearing about other people's dreams, like the most

546
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: the most startling or the most noteworthy example of this

547
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: for me was when I read I don't know it

548
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: was in the movie too, but it was certainly when

549
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: I read Corman McCarthy's No Country for Old Men. There's

550
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: a part where the sheriff character played by Tommy Lee

551
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: Jones in the movie He's he mentioned to his wife

552
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: the guy this dream. He says, nobody wants to hear

553
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,239
Speaker 1: about anybody's dream, but then goes on to share this

554
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: really potent dream that ties into the whole thematic structure

555
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: of the book because so clearly, like Corman, McCarthy can't

556
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: actually believe that, because he's a dream all the time.

557
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: To add additional insight, and as a culture, we love

558
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: TV shows about dreams, we do. We you know, we

559
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: mentioned all these bit different fictional properties that that have

560
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: existed or will exist very soon. And in the case

561
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: of the TV show, uh, and we clearly like to

562
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: hear about those dreams. And I find my own experience,

563
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: I like to hear about other people's dreams because it

564
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: gives me a little insight into how their mind works. Yeah,

565
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: so all of this is making me think, like my

566
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: reaction to this is very much like a sort of

567
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: modern contemporary one, which is like, let's stay closed off

568
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: from our dreams, like especially other people's dreams. Let's exists

569
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: in the waking world, right, whereas bring it back to

570
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: the aquar I mean, it seems like this, like you said,

571
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: it seems like such a mature way to experiences and

572
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: such a like like man like, I don't think I've

573
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: ever had a communal experience like that. We're like, oh,

574
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: my family, we all just sit around the living room

575
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: and we have have tea. I mean, other than the

576
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: vomiting part, but like have tea and sit around and

577
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: talk about what we thought about last night. You know. Um,

578
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: there's something kind of beautiful about it. Now. I do

579
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 1: have to say, if if we if like a workplace

580
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: made everybody coming on a Monday morning and instead of

581
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: brainstorming ideas, everyone shared their dreams. Okay, I could see

582
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: dreams getting a little but like on a on a personal,

583
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: like interpersonal level, I tend to like hearing about people's dreams. Well,

584
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: I mean, what we're getting into here is basically like

585
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: this isn't unique to that one specific tribe, right. But

586
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: they go a step further. They equate reality with dreaming

587
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: rather than with being awake. They also believe that all

588
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: inner qualities that make an individual unique exist separate from

589
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: the physical brain. Instead, when they dream, their soul enters

590
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: a multiverse where they learn all the things that are

591
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: going on in the world. This allows them theoretically to

592
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: move through time, though their focus is mainly on improving

593
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: the future, so they mainly in their dreams try to

594
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: look at the future rather than the past. You know,

595
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: this sounds like a dream world scenario that would fit

596
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: in with what we're seeing on Game of Thrones. Totally, Yeah, totally.

597
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: So they're basically they try to alter their dreams, and

598
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: if an elder interprets something bad is coming, they're going

599
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: to try to as a community sort of alter that

600
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: dream wise, but also by their behaviors in Waking Life.

601
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: And yes, they, like many of the other people we've

602
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: spoken about in this series, used hallucinogens to provoke these

603
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: vision quests. Here's a major example of a way that

604
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 1: this has affected their society. They had a dream, a

605
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: dream interpretation that they would seek conflict with the people's

606
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: of the north in Waking Life. All of their clans

607
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: united and called upon their Catholic missionary friends to assist

608
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: them because they were worried about this. And it turned

609
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: out a couple of years later, Ecuador and Peru were

610
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,720
Speaker 1: about to allow oil companies to come in and slash

611
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: and burn the part of the Amazon that this tribe

612
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: lived in, so They see this as part of their

613
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: long building prophecy, and the prophecy basically goes like this,

614
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: our people, us the Northerners, were called the people of

615
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: the Eagle, and their people are called the people of

616
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: the Condor. And rather of than fighting over the Amazon,

617
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: they want their prophecies that we're all going to unite

618
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: and fly together, which immediately made me think of lucid dream.

619
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how else are you going to fly? Now?

620
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: Of course, in Australian Aboriginal mythology, there is also this

621
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: concept of the dream time, which is a bit more

622
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: complex than a mirror's dream world. But and it has

623
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: to do has to do with an ancient time of

624
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: the gods in the way that that time sort of

625
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: echoes through the current life of ritual. But but there

626
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: is a component of dream to it. So, hey, we

627
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 1: we've we've discussed Young and his take on everything. Yeah,

628
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: let's get into a little bit of Freud. Yeah, this

629
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 1: is the other, the flip side of the coin. So

630
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: Freud and Young famously didn't get along so much so

631
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: they made a movie about it. Freud, however, wrote about

632
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 1: dream telepathy in a piece called Dreams and Telepathy. Uh

633
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: and he says, there, Yeah, maybe there's a theoretical connection

634
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: between dreams and telepathy in this, but he says he

635
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: doesn't actually believe they're connected. He sees dreams as being

636
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: of course he does something that's in our unconscious telepathy

637
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 1: to him, though, wouldn't alter a dream since it would

638
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: come from an external source. Right, Yeah, Now it's interesting

639
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: the whole, Like how how Freud looked at dreams. I

640
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 1: was reading that, Like he believed that we had trouble

641
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 1: remembering content from our dreams in large part because our

642
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: dreams we're pulling out things we were uncomfortable with. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

643
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 1: Well then he went on to write in another piece

644
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: called The Occult Significance of Dreams, this is the Freud

645
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: we don't hear often about um. In this book he

646
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: discusses telepathic or prophetic dreams, and he doesn't dismiss the

647
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: idea entirely, and he seems to indicate that, hey, you know,

648
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 1: maybe these could be true. Maybe it's a real thing.

649
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: Since this, many experiments have been conducted to see if

650
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: there's a connection, if there is something actually going on

651
00:36:54,920 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 1: with what Freud coined is dream telepathy. Sometimes this kind

652
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: of parapsychology is referred to though as the third rail

653
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: of psychology. So remember how I was referring to Young

654
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: and how he's often dismissed in academia. Of course this

655
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: stuff gets the same treatment. Uh, many people treated as pseudoscience.

656
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: They think it's going to ruin your career, so they

657
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: try to stay away from it. Hence, it's very difficult

658
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: to find quote unquote legitimate sources on this topic, right,

659
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: Like usually we're looking for peer reviewed research papers for

660
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: the episodes that we do, and it was a little

661
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: more difficult on stuff like this because no peer review

662
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: journal is going to publish something about dream telepathy and

663
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: there's unless there's like super concrete evidence. Yeah, so you're

664
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: the sources that you you end up going to in

665
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of cases, there's a steep

666
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: drop off in believability and uh and even like the

667
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: rigors of research. Well, there's two fairly recent studies that

668
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 1: I think are worth siting here. There's Stanley Krippner and

669
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: Montague Ullman in the nineteen seventies and eighties, they were

670
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 1: at the I think it's May Minoties Medical Center in Brooklyn.

671
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: Sorry if I'm getting that wrong. Uh. They were testing

672
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: for dream telepathy there and they were verifying it with

673
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: an e g. Everything I read about these guys immediately

674
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: made me think that they were the inspiration for Ghostbusters.

675
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,959
Speaker 1: So with this dream to telepathy though, but we're talking

676
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: about the supposed ability of one individual to speak to

677
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 1: another through dream exactly, yet that they could speak through

678
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: dreams and share dreams without technological hookup like we talked

679
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: about with Dr Seraf Uh. And then there was a

680
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: study by Carlyle Smith at Trent University in Ontario, and

681
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: he showed students photos of an individual and he asked

682
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: them to dream about the problems of that particular person.

683
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 1: Wasn't necessarily a person that they'd ever met before. Now,

684
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: the senders and the receiver's identities were totally unknown even

685
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 1: to the experimenters. The first experiment was about their health,

686
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: the second was about their life problems. In post analysis,

687
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: Carlyle Smith found that there were more what he referred

688
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 1: to as hits than controls, where an image or concept

689
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: from the person's dream correlated to the real problems of

690
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: the individual sender. Now you can take this with a

691
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 1: grain assault too, I suppose, right, like in the same

692
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: way as like fortune cookies, right, like, like there's a

693
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,919
Speaker 1: certain percentage that like a fortune cookie is vague enough

694
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: that almost all of us will I guess, like see

695
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: a little bit of ourselves and it identify. Yeah. Yeah,

696
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: that this gets into the Foyer effect that Joe and

697
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: I did an episode on a while back. If you have,

698
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: like certainly with like personality tests, like if enough stuff

699
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 1: clicks off for somebody, they'll buy into the whole package. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,

700
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,720
Speaker 1: And that's similar to what we're dealing with with mutual

701
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: dreaming here too. Yeah, this is the notion that two

702
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 1: lucid dreamers can share and experience the same dream. So

703
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 1: you find this within loose to dreaming communities, which that

704
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: can sometimes be like a message board or read it

705
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: for him in some cases. Uh, But you'll find individuals

706
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: who claimed to have experienced this together sometimes who even

707
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: find at times dubious claims of it taking place in

708
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: a laboratory setting. Essentially, two or more lucid dreamers say

709
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: that they encounter each other and then afterwards confirmed that

710
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: all three shared the same details of the encounter or

711
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: the setting. So it kind of matches up with some

712
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 1: of these experiments that you were just talking about. So

713
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: it's the idea that it's an idea that feeds on

714
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 1: notions of dream, telepathy, and collective unconscious to a certain extent.

715
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: And it reminds me a bit of a sci fi

716
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: novel that came out titled Vert v u r T

717
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: by Jeff Noon. It's it's really good. It's um It

718
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: involves a like a kind of a cyberpunky kind of future,

719
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: except there's instead of technology, there's a there's a hallucinogenic

720
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: drug called vert and it comes in feather form, so

721
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: essentially you get these multicolored feathers and you suck on them,

722
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 1: and then it allows everyone to enter into a shared

723
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: alternate reality that is essentially a dream world, and you

724
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: can then interact with other people who are taking VERD

725
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: at the same time. Isn't it funny how much of

726
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: our fiction is based around us being able to share

727
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: a reality together when we already share a reality together

728
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: that is and it it maybe it's just that, like

729
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: people inherently feel alienated from one another, like we have

730
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: to enter some other kind of states so that we're connected. Yeah,

731
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly when people are when there is a

732
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: physical disconnect I think you know, it certainly makes sense.

733
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: But yeah, you have plenty of times where you're you're

734
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: entering into this virtual experience with people that you you

735
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: share the the actual experience with. Yeah, yeah, totally. Okay,

736
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: So we've spent most of this episode talking about theories, right,

737
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: collective unconsciousness, young Freud, dream, telepathy, mind to mind communication

738
00:41:53,400 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: without wires, right, but what about the wires. We're using wires, right,

739
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: there's a technology in science to this whole thing. Yeah,

740
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: and this brings us to Traveloge. Uh you might not

741
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: think it, but yeah, travel Edge plays an important role here. Um,

742
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: so the Traveloge hotel chain. You might not think of

743
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: travel Lodge as a major player in futurist predictions, but

744
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: you do see this from large future concerned companies. From

745
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: time to time, they all commission some sort of a

746
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 1: study on where what what's the future of their business

747
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: with the future of of life is it intersects with

748
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: their business? And indeed you see more and more companies

749
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 1: that are devoting people and resources to future readiness. And

750
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eleven, travel Edge commissioned noted futurist

751
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 1: dr Ian Pearson to weigh in on where hotel technology

752
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,439
Speaker 1: is going, and indeed what the experience of checking into

753
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: a hotel might consist of in the year twenty thirty five.

754
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: I'm absolutely on board with this. I always sleep better

755
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: in a hotel. I don't really even the first night.

756
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: Yeah mean I some of the best experiences of sleep

757
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: I've ever had have been in a hotel. I mean,

758
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: I certainly love trip to New York. When we stayed

759
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: at the Yotel in Hell's Kitchen, Man, I slept great there. Ok, well,

760
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: maybe you'll sleep even better in So basically what happened

761
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: here is Pearson did a six month study and then

762
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: he laid out his vision of a future in which

763
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: nearly any surface or fabric in a hotel room maybe

764
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: electronically enhanced to make your stay better. So maybe they

765
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: made a particularly nostalgic cent or it's a virtual display. Uh,

766
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: maybe it's UM. It's turning your walls of the room

767
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,879
Speaker 1: into a scenic vista or even a room in your

768
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: own home so you feel like you're actually at home.

769
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:45,720
Speaker 1: This is kind of like what we end up talking

770
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: to Dr Surf about UM. The idea of linked dreams,

771
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: or influencing your dreams by using sensory applications outside and

772
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: that's exactly where Pearson goes because of course you check

773
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: into a hotel room. A few notable examples aside, you're

774
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: probably checking in that hotel room for one key purpose,

775
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,720
Speaker 1: and that is to go to sleep. And when we're sleeping,

776
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,439
Speaker 1: we dream. So Pierson's predictions deal with this a lot

777
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: of not only using virtual reality and even virtual sex,

778
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: which goes into but technologically augmented dream states. So some

779
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: of the dream enhancement notions are are fairly physical and

780
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: they're involving some of these things we've already discussed, so

781
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 1: surfaces that they can be turned into displays in a

782
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: mid light um devices that in it a fragrance, that's

783
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: that even in a sleeping state, you're going to process

784
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: and could have bed sometimes at night with that. My

785
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: wife and I have this little device actually maybe that's

786
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 1: where the idea for this device came from. You put

787
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 1: like a various scented oils into it and it puts

788
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: a spray out under your room, and then the device itself,

789
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: another setting on it can make it glow so the

790
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: room has like a particular hue to the color. It's nice.

791
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: So so yeah, some of the the technolo ology here

792
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: is along about those lines, but also special pjs. They

793
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 1: use yarns that contract under our electric fields. I don't

794
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: I hope those are disposable electronic pjas. I don't know

795
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: that I would want to wear somebody else's pjs. Well,

796
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: I'm guessing the fumigatum, but probably. And then on top

797
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,760
Speaker 1: of that you can add in some heating and cooling elements.

798
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: So essentially you have a garment that can you know,

799
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: hug you, massage you and and and in doing so,

800
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: it's like a thundershirt. Yeah, like a thundershirt that is

801
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: going to influence your dreams, linking imagery and sound and

802
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: even physicality to create a fully tactile dreamscape. So how

803
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: is this going to play out? Well, he predicts the

804
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: active management of our dreams through dream management systems. This

805
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: will allow us to manipulate the course of our dreams,

806
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: you know, basically just sort of primus like, well, I

807
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: want to I want to have a dream that I'm

808
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: at the ocean, so ocean sounds, ocean smell piped in.

809
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: Maybe somehow you program the garment or the bed itself

810
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: to create that sensation of waves rolling across you and

811
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: then falling away. So it's not so much as I'm

812
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: gonna physically accept your dream, but I'm going to do

813
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: everything with the environment of the hotel room to accept

814
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,399
Speaker 1: it for you. A lot of this makes me think

815
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: of something that we've both covered. I think you and

816
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: Julie did a previous stuff to blow your mind about this,

817
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: and I've covered it elsewhere, a s MR. I'm wondering

818
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,359
Speaker 1: if these people who are investigating this are looking into

819
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: the effect of a s MR. There are whole SMR

820
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: video series that are all designed to make you go

821
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 1: to sleep and wake you up. There's even a podcast.

822
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: Did you know there's a whole podcast that's designed to

823
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: help you go to sleep? Uh, some people use they do,

824
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: but a s MR. We should define this. This is

825
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: of course when and you have to listen to the

826
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: past episode to get the full breakdown. But essentially, certain

827
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 1: people here certain types of sounds and has an exceedingly soothing,

828
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: even you four effect on them. And this might be

829
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: the sound of someone whispering. My wife experienced, this is

830
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: the experiences this actually specifically with the sound of somebody

831
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: drawing her. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it's very

832
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: popular with the YouTube community. There's a number of YouTubers

833
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: who make a living doing it where they like kind

834
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: of perform roles whispering into a three D microphone. And

835
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: I'm very susceptible to it. It totally works. It it

836
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: Uh people call it brain orgasms. It like makes your

837
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 1: brain tingle in your spine kind of tangle down your

838
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 1: back and stuff. Yeah, yeah, way, it totally works for me. Well, well,

839
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: that and all these additional dream priming techniques, they make

840
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: a lot of sense that they're very much grounded within

841
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: like either current or very near technologies. But then Pearson

842
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: takes it one step farther. He says dream linking to

843
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 1: other people will be possible, So if a friend is

844
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: dreaming at the same time, it may be possible to

845
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: communicate with him via your dream. Sleepers will also be

846
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: able to play games in their sleep using feedback from

847
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: image recognition and emotion detection. So he says that with

848
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: the aid of brain monitoring, will be able to record

849
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: the dreams that we're having, uh, play them back later,

850
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: even continue on with them where we left off, or

851
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: experience the dream completely again. He says. It says that

852
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: we we may use active contact lenses that'll that'll that

853
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: will work along with skin connectivity monitors with the dream

854
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: management software to detect a nightmare and then either change

855
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 1: the course of your dream or wake you up. He

856
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: says that dream management systems could even be used for

857
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: edgecuricational or study purposes, so instead of just dreaming about whatever,

858
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,720
Speaker 1: you can actively do your homework in your dream. Yeah.

859
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: So these are very similar to devices we talked about

860
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: in the last episode. But let's just cover them again

861
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 1: very quickly in case, uh, somebody listening to this one

862
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: hasn't heard about. Yeah, because it's as as far out

863
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: there as that last example from Pearson may seem, and

864
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: it seems very sci fi. Uh. We see the groundwork

865
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: already coming together in in current technology. So as we

866
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: as we discussed in our last episode, you have psychophysiologist

867
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: Stephen Lebert with the Lucidity Institute, and he uses e

868
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 1: g s to look into and at the electra electrical

869
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: brain activity that takes place during sleep, monitoring dream activity.

870
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: And this has allowed the development of a number of

871
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 1: different devices such as the Nova dreamer Um, which it

872
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,879
Speaker 1: looks like a cross between a sleep mask and like goggles, uh,

873
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: and it detects the rapid eye movement of r M

874
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: sleep and the dreams that are likely taking place underneath it,

875
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 1: and deliver splashing light queues to let the user know that, hey,

876
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: you're you're having a dream right now, Wake up, go lucid,

877
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,399
Speaker 1: fly around, do whatever you want. And as I mentioned

878
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 1: in the last episode, there's there's another device that's been

879
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: advocated as doing something similar by a guy named Keith Hearn.

880
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 1: He called it the dream Machine, uh, and it was

881
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: never made commercially available, but it's a similar principle basically

882
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: that it can detect when you're dreaming uh and then

883
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: uses either like a visual or auditory cues to wake

884
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: you up or let you know that you're dreaming so

885
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,399
Speaker 1: that you can control the dream. Yeah. Now, it's also

886
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 1: worth knowing the U. S Military has explored the use

887
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: of VR goggles. They help trauma stricken individuals who wake

888
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: up from a nightmare and then calm them, distract them,

889
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: and then conceivably allow them to enter re enter the

890
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 1: dream world in a calm or state. This would be

891
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 1: I guess this would this would be more of a

892
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 1: priming system as opposed to an active dream manipulation. I

893
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 1: wonder how well that would work together with the m

894
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: d m A therapy that we talked about for PTSD individuals. Yeah,

895
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, you know, I don't remember

896
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 1: reading anything in our research about m d m a's

897
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: effect on dreams, like and in fact, I don't think

898
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: I've heard anything clinical or just interpersonal about that. Yeah,

899
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 1: but I can't remember. It's been a while since we

900
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: did those But so and when it comes to observing dreams,

901
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: because certain and when we start talking about sharing dreams,

902
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 1: there are a few different scenarios. Like one is one

903
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: person dreams and the other one observes. Another is that

904
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: both are engaged in the dream sharing together as a

905
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: collaborative effort. So in two thousand eleven, scientists that you

906
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: see Berkeley demonstrated the use of fm or I to

907
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: measure the brain activity of volunteers as they watched short

908
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: video clips. Then a computational model crunched the fm ri

909
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: I data and reproduce the images. So on. Essentially, they

910
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: would be thinking of one thing and then this this

911
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: they're getting an on screen interpretation of what they are thinking.

912
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 1: And the results are imperfect at this stage, we're talking

913
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: colorful blurs uh basic shape or sense of size or movement.

914
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 1: But they match up, I mean surprisingly well, considering that

915
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 1: the technology is doing what seemed the domain of magic

916
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: in previous ages, looking into a person's mind and seeing

917
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: what they're thinking about, breaking through that last barrier of privacy,

918
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 1: which we think that we all have. We talked to

919
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,479
Speaker 1: drs sor If about this a little bit about another

920
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: study that does something similar, and the way he describes it,

921
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: it makes me think of like that right now, we're

922
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: at low resolution and we're working our way up to

923
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: get to like a regular type resolution. We're not quite

924
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: at an HD level yet with our dreams, but they're

925
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: just so they're just these blurry, grainy things that you

926
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: could interpret as being you know, visuals. Yeah, at the

927
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: time of this initial study, the researchers predicted that we

928
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: were just a few decades away from enabling people to

929
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: read or view another individual's thoughts and intentions and ultimately

930
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 1: even their dreams, allowing us to to to play back

931
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: a dream and edge a little closer to some of

932
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: Ian Pearson's predictions. Alright, but what about so I'm thinking

933
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: of something we talked about on a lot of how

934
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: stuff work shows brain computer interfaces. You and Joe did

935
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,879
Speaker 1: a whole episode on techno telepathy. Now, what about when

936
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 1: you're like literally hooking up wires to somebody's brain. Yeah,

937
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: this is this is one of those areas where the

938
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: current technology is not it's not quite up to sci

939
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: fi levels by any means, but it's certainly it's it's

940
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 1: certainly close enough to where it's just it's really astounding

941
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: to think that we're actually pulling some of this off.

942
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 1: So for years now, scientists have been developing lots of

943
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:20,760
Speaker 1: different technologies for brain computer interfaces, and in physical terms,

944
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: it makes sense because the brain is an electrochemical machine

945
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: and its activities are expressed in ways that are detectable

946
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: to machines that are sensitive to electromagnetism and all. You

947
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: can divide the whole process up into three basic technological

948
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: elements neuroimaging, transmission, and neurostimulation. And we've already touched on

949
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 1: the neuroimaging a bit. We use fm R I, we

950
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: use U electro and cephalography UM or magneto cephalography to

951
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: observe the activity. For input, you've got a few different options,

952
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 1: certainly implanted electrodes which would be very invasive obviously, but

953
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 1: then also focused ultrasound or transcranial magnetics stimulation. You put

954
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: a nice friendly electro magnet against your head carefully a

955
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 1: line a lined over your scalp to target a particular

956
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: part of the brain, and it pulses inward to stimulate

957
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 1: electrical activity in the targeted region of the brain. So

958
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: one of the studies that I read about, and uh,

959
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: it's from a Gizmodo article in two thousand eight, it

960
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: said a research team at the a t R Computational

961
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:29,760
Speaker 1: Neuroscience Laboratories in Japan were successfully able to display simple

962
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: images produced in the human brain on a computer screen

963
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: using these technologies. Now, this is similar to what you

964
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier. We bring it up again with

965
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: Dr Serif in the interview and he says he thinks

966
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: that they repeated or maybe did like a better version

967
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: of it in But this is a colleague of his,

968
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 1: so he was very familiar with this and explains it

969
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 1: far better. But the essential gist as it converts electrical

970
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 1: signals sent to the visual cortex into images that are

971
00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: then translated onto the computer screen the way that did

972
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,240
Speaker 1: they tested this when they showed the test subjects six

973
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: letters in the word neuron, and the subjects succeeded in

974
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: reconstructing that word on screen with their brain. So basically,

975
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: it comes down to a scenario where if we can

976
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 1: observe the what's physically going on to cause a particular

977
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 1: dream image, if we can observe it, translate that into data,

978
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: and then retranslate that back and and and make that

979
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: same physical process appear in another individual's brain, we can

980
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: conceivably allow two brains to communicate with each other. We

981
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 1: can allow brains to maybe even share a share our

982
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 1: mind state, and the more far fetched a versions of it,

983
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 1: the one that I really like this is obviously a

984
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: science fiction scenario. Although I mean, if we've got the

985
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,720
Speaker 1: technology to do this, I don't see why we wouldn't

986
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 1: hook up a human brain to an animal brain and

987
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: and see what kind of interface you get there. Well,

988
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned that, because just to give you

989
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: an example out there for everyone where we are with

990
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 1: this technology experimentally, we have linked to rats, We've enabled

991
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 1: a human to move a living rats tail with their mind,

992
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 1: and we've even managed to allow limited brain to brain

993
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: communication with humans, taking brain activity from one person and

994
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: injecting brain activity into the second person. In a multinational

995
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen study, we had a team. The team

996
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:28,399
Speaker 1: of researchers involved use e e g. Caps and uh

997
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 1: TMS equipment. So we're talking about trans magnetic stimulation transcranial magnets, Yeah, exactly.

998
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 1: And they used this to allow them to communicate, to

999
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 1: eat with each other using signals of numbers, lights, and colors.

1000
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 1: And they did this across a across the across the continent,

1001
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 1: I believe it was like France to India. And in

1002
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen, researchers at the University of Washington published

1003
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: a study showing that they were able to establish a

1004
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: technologically mediated, non invasive brain to brain interface which allowed

1005
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: one person to cause movement and another person's body without

1006
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: speech and across the internet. That is fascinating and terrifying. Yeah,

1007
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 1: then something that well, I mean, you and Joe went

1008
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 1: into it pretty heavily in the technotal leaf of the episode.

1009
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: But I'm sure this is something we'll keep coming back

1010
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: to as more and more research is conducted in the area.

1011
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: It seems like you're basically talking about to two separate

1012
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: dreams that are correlated to a certain degree by the

1013
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 1: observation and manipulation of a dream management system. Again, two

1014
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: people are dreaming and you have a computer spitting out

1015
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: sea salt smells at you. Um Or, you are really

1016
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: experiencing the same dreams, the same reality. Two brains connected

1017
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: in a way that permits both dreamers to dream. Essentially

1018
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: is a single double decker brain, um Or, we work

1019
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: where one dreamer is, you know, essentially an observer mode perhaps,

1020
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: But that idea of like two brains as one, like computing,

1021
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: is one like that. I have a hard time imagine

1022
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: exactly what that would be like. I mean, that's that's

1023
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: a level of personal connection that is beyond the human

1024
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: experience totally. I can't like, and we get into this

1025
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 1: with Dr Serf, I can't imagine the physical experience. I'm

1026
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 1: trying to understand what it's like other than just like

1027
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 1: feeling electrical stimulation in the brain. Um So we turned

1028
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 1: to him for this. He's the expert in this field.

1029
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 1: Uh we talked to him last episode, but if you know,

1030
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 1: I'll reintroduce him here. His name is Dr Moran Serf.

1031
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: He's a professor of neuroscience and business at the Kellogg

1032
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 1: School of management and the neuroscience program at Northwestern University,

1033
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 1: and he focuses on studying brain surgery patients their emotions,

1034
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 1: their dreams, their behaviors. Uh, he's He's recognized because he

1035
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: had a former career as a hacker, breaking into banks,

1036
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 1: stealing their money and proving to them that there is

1037
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: security flaws in their systems. So people look at that

1038
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 1: as a great metaphor of he is now hacking into

1039
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,919
Speaker 1: brains and dreams. So let's turn to interview with him

1040
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 1: and get some more on what it would actually be

1041
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 1: like to share a dream state with someone else. Darker

1042
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 1: serve what is your view as a scientist of Young's

1043
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 1: collective unconscious? So the idea that things in the outside

1044
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 1: world penetrate our dreams and become symbols that have meaning

1045
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: in our dreams is very likely. We know from studies

1046
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: that were done not long ago, many years after Young

1047
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: theo is emerged that show that we can actually make

1048
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 1: you dream things by doing them when you're awake. So

1049
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 1: if you play tees a lot when you're awake, you're

1050
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 1: likely to actually dream about bricks falling from the sky

1051
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: on you to night after. So we know that things

1052
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: on the outside world penetrate our dreams. And what Young

1053
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: basically said is that things in that's a role that

1054
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 1: are really important go into our dreams, and because they're

1055
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: important for how many people together, they're gonna go into

1056
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 1: many people's dreams and all of them are going to

1057
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: somehow get to experience what happened in the world in

1058
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 1: the same way. Now now Young don't really have the

1059
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,919
Speaker 1: mechanism for that, but now we know even about a mechanism. So,

1060
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: for instance, we know that in the months after nine eleven,

1061
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 1: many people in New York had shared dreams about a

1062
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 1: nightmare's event with planes crashing or with people going through

1063
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: horrific experiences. This is because there was a shared experience

1064
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 1: that happened to us when we're awake, and our dreams

1065
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: reflect the experience that are awake brain goes through, so

1066
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: it also went into many people's dreams. And the therapists

1067
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 1: that helps a lot of people work with things help

1068
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: them by looking also not just that they're awake selves,

1069
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 1: but also on their dreaming selves. In the same way,

1070
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 1: we know that if you just look at dream diaries,

1071
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: what people write about their dreams when they wake up,

1072
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 1: you see that there are teams that emerge, and those

1073
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: teams even make sense in the context of the geography,

1074
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: the location, the cultural experiences. So if you look at

1075
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 1: the western world and you ask people what the worst

1076
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:56,439
Speaker 1: dreams you've had, you will hear a lot of dreams

1077
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 1: about being late for work and missing a meeting, or

1078
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: being embarrassed in public, or stuff like that. If you

1079
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 1: go to countries where the amount of meetings that people

1080
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 1: have to attend are smaller, about the amount of the

1081
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 1: famine and troubles with beasts are higher, you would hear

1082
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: a lot of small dreams about being attacked by animals

1083
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 1: or being in a grave circumstances where you have no food.

1084
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,959
Speaker 1: And this has suggests that experiences in the outside world

1085
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 1: goes through your dream and be conseperency. The answer the

1086
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 1: world shove. But many people you can expect to have

1087
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: a lot of dreams happen to a lot of people

1088
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 1: in a very similar narrative. You took it one that

1089
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: further and suggested that they actually the dreams have a

1090
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: meaning that we can extract and go backwards. So we

1091
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 1: can ask people what you dreamed, and if we see

1092
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 1: that many people have a similar narrative or similar story

1093
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 1: or similar symbol in their dream we can kind of

1094
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 1: figure out what the community goes to. So if a

1095
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: people a lot of people in their dreams dream about

1096
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 1: being eaten by a beast, maybe there's a grave thing

1097
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 1: that happens right now to the our community that affects

1098
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 1: them and the priests the symbol of bad things happened.

1099
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 1: So he took that and tried to figure out in

1100
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: the biggest success as what happens to everyone. So in

1101
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 1: this particular episode, one of the things that we looked

1102
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 1: at was a Japanese study that seemed to indicate that

1103
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 1: we could uh using brain computer interfaces, look at imagery

1104
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 1: of what a person was dreaming. How close are we

1105
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 1: now to to actually being able to witness another person's dreams?

1106
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: I think the study is sort of I'm thirteen. So

1107
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 1: this is a study by a colleague of mind, professor

1108
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 1: Yukikamiani from Kyoto, Japan. And what they did is they

1109
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 1: did something remarkable, which is they used detected in our dreams,

1110
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: we actually see content that their visuals are like movie

1111
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 1: to actually extract the story by looking at the part

1112
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 1: of the brain that sees things. If you look at

1113
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: the brain of a human. There are many, many components

1114
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 1: to it. In the back of the brain has a

1115
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 1: big part of it that actually corresponds to the images

1116
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 1: that you see. So if you see a house, there's

1117
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: a part of the brain is like that. If you

1118
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 1: see a face, a different part light up. If you

1119
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 1: see colors or shapes, or objects or text, all of

1120
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: those things in the outide world have a call it

1121
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,919
Speaker 1: in the brain. So what Camani and his colleagues did

1122
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 1: was first mapped those So they took you and they

1123
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 1: put you in the magnetic machine that kind of looked

1124
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 1: at your brain from the inside, called the f m ALI,

1125
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: and they mapped your brain and they found a part

1126
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 1: of the brain that corresponds to seeing faces and seeing objects,

1127
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: and seeing houses, and seeing familiar people and unfamiliar people,

1128
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 1: and many many things they could map have a clear

1129
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 1: collet in the brain. And then they had you go

1130
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 1: to sleep, and they waited for you to go to

1131
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 1: sleep and really get into deep sleep or dreamstays, and

1132
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 1: then they just looked at the same part of the

1133
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 1: brain and try to identify what images you may see.

1134
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 1: And they saw that maybe the part of the brainet

1135
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 1: his face is light up, and they said okay, right now,

1136
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: you see a face and then immediately after another part

1137
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 1: light up, and it's the part that says it's a

1138
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 1: familiar thing, and you say, okay, maybe it's the face

1139
01:03:58,160 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 1: of someone that you know. And then a third thing

1140
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 1: happens and it lights up and maybe it's a landmark

1141
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 1: that you're familiar with. It comes up, and just by

1142
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: that they could kind of create a suggestion to what

1143
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: your narrative is. You're going with someone that you know

1144
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 1: to a place that you're familiar with, maybe it's your house,

1145
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 1: and you see two individuals in talk and then they

1146
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 1: would wake you up, ask you to tell them what

1147
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: your dream is and compel how well they are. Decoders

1148
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:25,240
Speaker 1: were able to predict what your dreams. And because we

1149
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: can extetend decoders where they were wrong and where they

1150
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 1: we're right, we can actually do better in the next iteration.

1151
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: So then you've got to sleep again. Then we wake

1152
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: you up after five minutes and ask you again. The

1153
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 1: computer learns again what you did correctly and what you

1154
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: did in corectly, and you've got to sleep again. And

1155
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 1: after a few trials, you can actually get to a

1156
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 1: level where we can predict with a very high accuracy.

1157
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: What is the visuals that you see in your mind? Now,

1158
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 1: there's a lot of limitations to death. One is that

1159
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 1: we don't really know if the visuals that you see

1160
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 1: correspond to the same visual that you interpret. So maybe

1161
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:58,440
Speaker 1: you see a familiar person, but for you as your

1162
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 1: dad's and I think it's your mom. But just the

1163
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 1: fact that we can actually get something and predict something

1164
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 1: about the contact of your dream is already remarkable because

1165
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 1: we can actually give it to you and ask you

1166
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: to reflect on that. And that's something that most people

1167
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 1: don't have. Most of us just forget our dreams when

1168
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:15,200
Speaker 1: we wake up. Now a computer can tell you what

1169
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 1: it thinks you dreamt of. And this might kind of

1170
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 1: like the the you know, the the the lightbulb in

1171
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 1: your brain and say, oh my god, yes, I definitely

1172
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 1: remember having seen this and death. So this is a

1173
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 1: way to give us access to something that our brain

1174
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 1: hides for us every night. So do you believe it

1175
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 1: will ever be possible for for two minds to share

1176
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 1: the same dream? Uh? In a sense similar to UH,

1177
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,080
Speaker 1: I guess like mutual dreaming. That is the idea that

1178
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 1: sometimes stuffed around. So here are the challenges in having

1179
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 1: two brains share the same dream, but also we know

1180
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 1: how to solve those so it becomes a technical problem

1181
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 1: rather than a philosophical one. So the challenges are that

1182
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:55,960
Speaker 1: in order for you and I have to share the

1183
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: same dream at the same time, we actually have to

1184
01:05:57,880 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 1: get to dreams state at the same time. So the

1185
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: fact that we're to sleep at the same time, it

1186
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 1: doesn't mean mere dreaming at the same time. There are

1187
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: different things to be asleep and to drink. Then we

1188
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: know that each friend has its own kind of cycle.

1189
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: If you want it takes you five minutes to get

1190
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:12,800
Speaker 1: your dream, it takes me twenty minutes. So in order

1191
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: to share the thing, we first have to just make

1192
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 1: sure that we're both do make at the same time.

1193
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 1: Already not easy, but that's something that we can actually hit.

1194
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 1: If we just let you sleep in and find next

1195
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: each other, we're gonna at some point hit this moment.

1196
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 1: That's that one. Now we want to actually not just

1197
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 1: have your dream happened to you in my veravor to me,

1198
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 1: but somehow we want to control the content unless we

1199
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 1: know we can do using a stimuli that actually penetrates

1200
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 1: the sleep and navigate the dreams. Some extent. So we know,

1201
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: for instance, that if I spray water on you when

1202
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 1: you're dreaming, it's likely if I can wake you up afterwards,

1203
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 1: you will tell me that you have dreamt on something

1204
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 1: that's to do with water. You might have You might

1205
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:54,040
Speaker 1: say something like I was by the ocean, or I

1206
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 1: was seeing a waterfall, something like that. So here's one

1207
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 1: thing we can do. We also know that the smells

1208
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 1: manipulate dreams in certain directions. So we know that if

1209
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 1: you're asleep and I spread the smell of roses next

1210
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 1: to your nose, you will probably have a dream that

1211
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 1: has to do with something positive. It won't be roses

1212
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 1: that you dream of, but you will do something positive.

1213
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 1: I mean, if I spread the smell of boat and eggs,

1214
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 1: you will dream of something negative. So we can kind

1215
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:18,920
Speaker 1: of nevigate the balance of your dream with smells. So

1216
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 1: the idea is that with touch and with sound and

1217
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:25,000
Speaker 1: with the smells, we can actually shift your dreams in

1218
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:27,960
Speaker 1: certain directions. Now, right now, it's not specific, like we

1219
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 1: kind of can move you to a positive or negative

1220
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 1: to something that you know. I means don't though, but

1221
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: this is just technical now, once we figure out if

1222
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,919
Speaker 1: we can actually change your dream or make you think

1223
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,840
Speaker 1: of something. When I'm controlling it from the outside, it's

1224
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:42,000
Speaker 1: just a matter of mapping it's perfectly and finding what

1225
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 1: smells for you really make you think of your mom,

1226
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 1: what smells for me really make me thic of my mom.

1227
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 1: And then we basically could have the two of us

1228
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 1: slip out by side and spread the corresponding smells for

1229
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 1: the two of us, and now both of us go

1230
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 1: to the same idea of dreaming about our mothers. And

1231
01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 1: if we really get to a level where we can

1232
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 1: control a lot of the negative mother's father's people, we know, people,

1233
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 1: we don't like, people, we like people, places we've been to,

1234
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:07,760
Speaker 1: we can start imagining a world where we really have

1235
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 1: two people sleep there and each gets stimulus that makes

1236
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:13,640
Speaker 1: them go to the same experience. So you and I

1237
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:16,759
Speaker 1: go spend the evening together and then we go to sleep,

1238
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: and instead of the evening just being over when we

1239
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:23,519
Speaker 1: both retired into our old world, we kind of continue

1240
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:27,799
Speaker 1: the experience together in our dream world. That's the science

1241
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 1: fiction yet of this, But the reality is that we

1242
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:32,400
Speaker 1: know that we're going in this direction because we know

1243
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 1: a lot of the components, and now it's just a

1244
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 1: matter of finding the perfection and making it really a reality. Now,

1245
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 1: if you want to go real science fiction, we can

1246
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:42,519
Speaker 1: imagine that being one step above, which is instead of

1247
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 1: someone from the outside world just manipulating both of our

1248
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 1: prints at the same time and making a huge dream

1249
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:50,640
Speaker 1: of a mid dream of a and just controlling for

1250
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 1: that being the same a, we can imagine that I'm

1251
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 1: looking at your brain and using the thing that camitality

1252
01:08:57,400 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 1: this guy that you mentioned in the previous study, by

1253
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 1: reading your brain and seeing that you right now see

1254
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:04,920
Speaker 1: someone that you're familiar with and immediately spray the smell

1255
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:08,040
Speaker 1: that makes you take someone familiar reading. And so I

1256
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:10,679
Speaker 1: read one person's brain and write into the other person's

1257
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: plame and basically make the people share a dream by

1258
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:17,559
Speaker 1: me just manipulating one after I read the other. That's

1259
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 1: quite science fiction right now. But the technology behind that

1260
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:22,240
Speaker 1: is what we know right now. So it's just a

1261
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:24,519
Speaker 1: matter of finding if we can actually do that, or

1262
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 1: it's gonna main uh the O with without any poof

1263
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 1: So let's stick to somewhere in between, like what the

1264
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 1: modern sciences and the and the science fiction theory that

1265
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 1: you just throw at us, what would a shared dream stay.

1266
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:42,120
Speaker 1: If we were using brain to brain interfaces, be like,

1267
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:45,640
Speaker 1: would it just be simply electrical signals going back and

1268
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 1: forth or would it be more sensory oriented like you

1269
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:53,800
Speaker 1: were talking about touch, smell sound In the long In

1270
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 1: the long term, we might be able to actually really

1271
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 1: stimulate brains and activate them. Right now, we're not really

1272
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 1: good at that, and partially just because we don't have

1273
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:03,280
Speaker 1: access to brains so in order to still that the

1274
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 1: bringing it to open one and stickulate those inside, and

1275
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: there aren't the many people who will happen to do that,

1276
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:12,040
Speaker 1: So most of our work is coming with just looking

1277
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:14,599
Speaker 1: at the brains and kind of imaging it, also looking

1278
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:17,920
Speaker 1: at what's coming out without touching anything. If you talk

1279
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 1: about animals like mice and rats, are studies right now

1280
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:23,160
Speaker 1: that actually do what I just mentioned. They read the

1281
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 1: brain of one rat and they and they stimulate the

1282
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:28,679
Speaker 1: brain of another one. They actually share content from one

1283
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:31,559
Speaker 1: rat to another. This was done last year by grouping

1284
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 1: the Duke University in Brazil, where they basically had one

1285
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:36,800
Speaker 1: right think one thing, then it acculated the brain of

1286
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 1: another rat and they basically shared an experience across you know,

1287
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 1: Brazil and North Carolina but that's in the world of

1288
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,640
Speaker 1: animals and the world of humans. We are as really

1289
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 1: as invasive as we are with animals, so we don't

1290
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:54,120
Speaker 1: really get to change things in a very specific level

1291
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:56,280
Speaker 1: in your brain. So the only thing that is those

1292
01:10:56,320 --> 01:10:59,559
Speaker 1: two is changing the environment and hoping that your dream

1293
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:01,920
Speaker 1: is going to all. So that's where we are right now.

1294
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 1: We basically activate your senses from the outside and hope

1295
01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 1: that your brain is gonna take you to the experience

1296
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:09,439
Speaker 1: it by itself. So we can change the temperature in

1297
01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 1: the room, and we can change the smell in the room,

1298
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:13,519
Speaker 1: and we can speak to you, and we can even

1299
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:16,639
Speaker 1: flesh light into your eyes that are closed and hope

1300
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 1: that this is gonna all make you dream of the

1301
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:21,040
Speaker 1: right thing. So there are studies that show that you

1302
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:26,720
Speaker 1: can actually navigate your dream using smells. Some smells make

1303
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,719
Speaker 1: you dream of positive things, some of negative things, something

1304
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 1: to do more specific things that were actually in your

1305
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 1: experience before, or some memois in your wake self have

1306
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 1: a smell attached them, and if I spread that smells

1307
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:40,720
Speaker 1: when you're asleep, it will take your brain to the

1308
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 1: same experience. So smells this one kind of big category

1309
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 1: of things that we play with right now sounds also works,

1310
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 1: so I can actually we'll spell in your ear some

1311
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 1: message and it will penetate your dream. We all know that,

1312
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 1: for instance, from your alarm clock. Oftentimes when you're asleep

1313
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 1: you allowm buzzes, and in terms of just waking up

1314
01:11:57,120 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 1: for the first few seconds, you can have incorporate the

1315
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 1: alarm sounds into your dream, and then at some point

1316
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:03,240
Speaker 1: it's just too much and you wake up. But we

1317
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:05,960
Speaker 1: know that there's a level by which content can actually

1318
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 1: get into your sleep, penetrate it and become part of

1319
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 1: your dream other than break you up. And the same

1320
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 1: as too for touch in order if we touch you

1321
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:15,639
Speaker 1: in certain locations at certain times, you will have an experience.

1322
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 1: The classical story is that if I make your legs

1323
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:19,800
Speaker 1: moved in your dream, you will kind of feel like

1324
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:22,240
Speaker 1: you're falling. That's that's a classical experience that it will

1325
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:25,559
Speaker 1: often report in their dreams. So all of those are

1326
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:28,799
Speaker 1: just ways to change something that makes your brain hopefully

1327
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 1: take the content and change it accordingly. It's not specific enough.

1328
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:34,960
Speaker 1: Now we don't really know you know, how to really

1329
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:38,559
Speaker 1: make you go and imagine how it was when you

1330
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:40,559
Speaker 1: and your mom went to the shopping more at age four.

1331
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 1: But we're getting there, so it becomes a technical problem

1332
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 1: rather than just a philosophical one. We actually starting to

1333
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:49,160
Speaker 1: map the possibilities and slowly getting too more and more

1334
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:59,280
Speaker 1: accurate abilities when it comes toneticating. All right, So there

1335
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:03,400
Speaker 1: you have at the elective unconscious, uh, the conjoined dream,

1336
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 1: both in a sort of mystical terms, uh, psychological terms

1337
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 1: and even hard science of the nearer and distant future.

1338
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:15,320
Speaker 1: If you want more on these related topics, if you

1339
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 1: want to look up some of the episodes we discussed here,

1340
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:20,400
Speaker 1: head on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1341
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:21,840
Speaker 1: That's the mother ship. That's what we find all the

1342
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:26,559
Speaker 1: blog posts, the videos, as all the podcast episodes, and

1343
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:29,200
Speaker 1: links out to our various social media accounts. Right we

1344
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 1: are on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, and Instagram. You can write

1345
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 1: us on all of those platforms. We love hearing from

1346
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:40,400
Speaker 1: the audience. Especially. We'll listen to whatever dreams you're having.

1347
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 1: And if you want to write us about your dreams

1348
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:45,599
Speaker 1: the old fashioned way, you can get us on blow

1349
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 1: the Mind at how Stuff work Stuff Well more on

1350
01:13:57,240 --> 01:13:59,719
Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics, because it how stuff

1351
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:16,400
Speaker 1: works out com everything they believe the different Everything starts

1352
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 1: about par