1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. The Last Kingdom is 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: one of the most successful historical fiction series of our time. 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: The novels tell the epic story of the birth of 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: England and introduces one of the greatest fictional characters ever, 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: the iconic Ughtred of Babenberg, the Saxon born, Norse raised 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: warrior and rebel. In his new book, Bernard Carnwell revisits 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: Utred's realm illuminating elements of the Anglo Saxon world he 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: couldn't fully explain in his novels, and I have to 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: say this is one of the most creative and innovative 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: approaches I have ever seen to this kind of historic fiction. 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: Ughtred's Feast offers rich background on the books of The 12 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: Last Kingdom series, presenting a fascinating detailed view of Anglo 13 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: Saxon life in all its splendor, danger and beauty. With 14 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: his remarkable narrative flairn Well explores every aspect of this 15 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: historical period, from the clothes, to weapons to food, offering 16 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: beautifully crafted recipes of early Anglo Saxon fair created by 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: renowned British chef Suzanne Pollock. In addition, he has written 18 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: three new stories exclusive to this book the reveal of 19 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: the man behind the Shield, Utred as a young boy, 20 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: as Alfred's advisor and as Prince. So those of you 21 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: who've been following my podcast know that I'm just a 22 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: tremendous fan Bernard Cornwell's work, both his Napoleonic series, which 23 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: is amazing his own right and Ughtred's life, and his 24 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: new book, Utred's Feast Inside the World of the Lass Kingdom, 25 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: is such a creative and innovative book and also, by 26 00:01:52,440 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: the way, a cookbook, so it shows a double purpose. Bernard, 27 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 1: welcome back and thank you for joining me again on 28 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: Newts World. And since I'm one of your biggest fans, 29 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: it is a thrill to have you here. 30 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: Well, it's a great pleasure to be back with you. 31 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: Thank you. 32 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: I'm curious how did you come up with the notion 33 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: of Utred's Feast. It's a totally different approach and it's 34 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: I think brilliant. 35 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: Actually, I think it was Suzanne's idea. And Suzanne, I 36 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 2: hate to correct you, mister speaker. She's a good American. 37 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: Although she was born in Beirut and mainly raised in Africa. 38 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 2: Her father was a CIA operative. Suzanne had read the books, 39 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 2: and she chided me one day, just saying, whenever you 40 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: describe Utrid's food, you always have him eating the same thing. 41 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 2: It's salted meat, smoked fish, or cheese and bread. The 42 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 2: poor man must have eaten something else. And I said, well, 43 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: you're a cook, you tell me what he would eat. 44 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: And she took that as a challenge and went off 45 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 2: and came up with a whole lot of recipes of 46 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: Saxon food that could be as it were recreated today. 47 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: And rather foolishly, I said to my publisher we could 48 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: publish a cookbook on Saxon food and they said, yes, 49 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: if you write three short stories to go with it. 50 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: And I hate writing short stories. I found it incredibly difficult, 51 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: but I thought, okay, let's have a go. So I 52 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: think I have to credit Suzanne with the birth of 53 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: the book. 54 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: That's great, and I apologize we were told she was 55 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: a British chef. 56 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 2: Oh no, she's an American who cooks in America. She 57 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: lives mostly in Charleston and sometimes goes to Richmond, Virginia, 58 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: and she's a superb cook. 59 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: That's great. So have you actually tried the various recipes 60 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: very bravely? 61 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: Yes, I rather haven't taken her vegetable recipes, as I'm 62 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: not a vegetable fan, but the meat recipes are superb, 63 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: and my favorite in the book, I think is no 64 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 2: not meat, is peas pudding, which is basically the food 65 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: that kept European peasants alive for two thousand years. We 66 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: call it hummers. 67 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: Did so because it was easy to raise and produce 68 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: large quantities. Why was it so central. 69 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: Well, food was always a difficulty. You have to feed 70 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: yourself through the winter. You need ingredients that are accessible, 71 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: and beans are easy to grow and easy to process. 72 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: I think it's simply the availability of the ingredients, and we. 73 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: Forget that prior to the discovery the New World, we 74 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: didn't have potatoes in the Old World, and so potatoes 75 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: gradually became the food of choice for poor people because 76 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: they're easy to raise. 77 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: I think it's one of Ootra's great regrets that he 78 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: was born and lived before the discovery of the potato. 79 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about how you approach this. 80 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: You've written a number of smaller sets of books, but 81 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: you've written two really long series where you really see 82 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: the character and you see their development, and do you 83 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: realize when you're starting that it's going to be I 84 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: think one of those now what nineteen or twenty volumes 85 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: about the Napoleonic era. 86 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: I think they're twenty three, now twenty three. 87 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: This is I guess number what fourteen in the Utrix series. 88 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: I think it is. Yes, I think I knew when 89 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 2: I began Utred that it was going to be a series, 90 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 2: because I knew it was a long story. I certainly 91 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: knew that about Sharp, that if Sharp was going to 92 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 2: fight his way right through the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars, 93 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: it had to be a long series. Even so, I 94 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 2: never ever thought it would be as long as it's 95 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: turned out to be, and it may yet turn out 96 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 2: to be longer. I haven't given up on him. Utred 97 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: is the same. I haven't totally given up on Utred. 98 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: You have coming out in about six months or so, 99 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: you'll have another Sharp's novel coming out. 100 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: Yes, God, Sharp's Command that comes out. I think in January. 101 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: You manage to go back and find new niches in 102 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: their lives that give you an excuse for the next round. 103 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I leave gapped. 104 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: Look as a fan, I have to say, I find 105 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: myself literally getting involved in their evolution. 106 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 2: Well, that's very good, you know. 107 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: Watching them grow and evolve, and the fact that the 108 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: same person could take somebody as a very young person 109 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: as you do even more with Utre than you do 110 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: with Sharp, and sort of grow with them. But I 111 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: am really astounded both at the way you have shaped 112 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: these characters over time so that they have a natural evolution, 113 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: but also parallel to that and much harder or at 114 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: least his art. You have a knack for writing stories 115 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: that your use of English is remarkable, and you just 116 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: get people in there your natural storyteller. Now is that 117 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: also true just orally or is that only when you're writing. 118 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 2: I think it's mostly true when I'm writing. I don't know. 119 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: I really don't know. I think, yeah, I'm going to 120 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 2: say it's mostly true when I'm writing. 121 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: When I was an undergraduate of Memory, I had a 122 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: medieval history professor named George Kutnaugh who said one day 123 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 1: he actually had no idea what was going on in 124 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: terms of newspapers because he was busy thinking about the 125 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: fourteenth century, and when he woke up in the morning 126 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: he was in the middle of the fourteenth century. And 127 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: I have a little bit of a sense here that 128 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: these are living stories to you. 129 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: I know exactly how he feels. I mean, if I'm 130 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 2: writing a book about the fourteenth century, which I actually 131 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 2: am at the moment, then when I wake up, I'm 132 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: thinking about it. When I take the dog for a walk, 133 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about it. I mean, it's you live in 134 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: that period. But as for the storytelling, I always think 135 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: that the great joy of what I do is that 136 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: every day I sit down and I write, and I 137 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: haven't a clue what's going to happen. I don't know 138 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: how the book is going to end. I don't know 139 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: how the chapter I'm writing is going to end. And 140 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: the joy of reading a good novel is to find 141 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 2: out what happens. And for me, the joy of writing 142 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: one is to find out what happens. And I think 143 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: that's the clue. 144 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: Do you literally not know? I mean when you start 145 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: one of these stories, do you really not know the end? 146 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: I really don't. I mean, if it's one of the sharps, 147 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: because most of those are built right, and the great 148 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: battles that the Duke of Wellington fought in Spain and Portugal. 149 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: I mean, if it was take one example, Sharp's sword, 150 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: I know it's going to end at the Battle of Salamanca. 151 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: But how Sharp gets there and what's going to be 152 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: at stake for him at that battle, I don't know. 153 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: And very often, certainly this is true in the Utra books. 154 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 2: I'd get to chapter twelve and think, I haven't a 155 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: clue how this book is going to end, and just 156 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 2: keep writing is the answer. And it's very frustrating because 157 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 2: you suddenly find out how it's going to end, and 158 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: you think, I've now got to go back and change 159 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: everything in the book to make sure this ending works. 160 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: But it does work in the end. 161 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: But I've had some novelists tell me that their characters 162 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: inform them. They suddenly develop their own logic, in their 163 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: own patterns. You're almost transcribing them rather than inventing them. 164 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, they make decisions which often I dislike, but I 165 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: let them do it because that's what they want to do. 166 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 2: And it's extraordinary. I mean, in the Sharp books, Sharp, 167 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 2: who is an inveterate enemy of the French in all 168 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 2: the books, ends up marrying a French woman and living 169 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: in France. I never intended him to do that. He 170 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: just did it on his own, And as far as 171 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: I know, he's still there and very happy, and I 172 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 2: think that's actually rather fun when characters dictate to you 173 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: what they want to do. 174 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: You do have a legitimate tie to Ughtred, if I 175 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: remember correctly, through a very distant relative of yours. 176 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: He's a distant ancestor of mine. Yes, indeed he is, 177 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 2: and he claimed ancestry from the god Odin, so I 178 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: think I can claim ancestry from Odin too, which is 179 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 2: rather a nice thought. 180 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: So you were currently Odin's writer, That's one way to 181 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: think of it. 182 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: I hadn't thought of that, but yes, why not? 183 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: Was that? A part of what got you into Haughtred 184 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: was Beegmnberg itself? 185 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 2: Yes, it was. I had long wanted to write a 186 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 2: series of novels that described the creation of England because 187 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: I I realized that although I received a very good 188 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: education in Britain, I hadn't a clue how England had 189 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 2: actually come to be. But I didn't know quite how 190 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 2: to tell that story. And then I discovered that I 191 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: was descended from this great warrior Utred of Bebenberg, and 192 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: I thought, that's it. I'll tell his story because he 193 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: was alive at that time. Now we know very little 194 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: about him. I mean everything I put in the books 195 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 2: is fiction. I mean, I've given the poor man a 196 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 2: much more exciting life than he probably led. But that 197 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: was the key. The key to it was discovering that 198 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 2: I was descended from this Saxon warrior. 199 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: Damon Burg itself is open now to the public, isn't. 200 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 2: It It is. It's called Bambrough Castle and it's a 201 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: magnificent place. The castle we see today was mostly rebuilt 202 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 2: in the nineteenth century, but it's still an extraordinary place, 203 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: built on this volcanic plug of rock on the Northumbrian coast, 204 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: and it wasn't until it was battered by artillery that 205 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: it actually fell. And it was an enormous fortress that 206 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: resisted the vikings and lasted right through history. And it's 207 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: still there and opens visitors and well worth a visit. 208 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 2: It's an extraordinary place, and. 209 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: It also resisted the Scots it did. 210 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 2: Indeed, it was the favorite place where you imprisoned Scots 211 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 2: because they couldn't get out and they couldn't be rescued. 212 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: King David the Second of Scotland ended up for a 213 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 2: time there before he was sent to the Tower of London. 214 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: One of the things that struck me is Historically, I've 215 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: often always identified alf For the Great with the development 216 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: of England or engla Land as you called it in 217 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: that period, But in fact there's like three or four 218 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: generations of fighting to solidify the ability of the English 219 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: to govern the southern two thirds of the kingdom. 220 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean Alfred. You can credit Alfred with the 221 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 2: idea of England or Englandland. He was an extraordinary man, 222 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 2: and while he was king the English, the Saxon suffered 223 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 2: the biggest reverse when the Danes the Vikings really succeeded 224 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: in just about capturing the whole island except for a 225 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 2: little patch of the west country, and Alfred rebounded from 226 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 2: that to defeat them. But it was his son Edward 227 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 2: and his grandson Athelstan who actually made and his daughter 228 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 2: indeed ethelfleyd who created what we now call England. But 229 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: all they were doing was building his dream. And it 230 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 2: was Alfred's dream of a united Saxon country that became England. 231 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 2: So he certainly deserves the epithet the Great, and without him, 232 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 2: I'm not sure it would have happened. 233 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: I was very struck in the TV. I thought that 234 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: the person who played Alfred was really convincing. 235 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 2: He was wonderful. David Dawson, he was absolutely splendid. And 236 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: because I had to follow real history, I felt that 237 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 2: some of the life went from the books when Alfred died, 238 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 2: because without Alfred to bounce off, Ughtred was rather rootless, 239 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: but he kept going. 240 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: There are enough challenges from the concept of England to 241 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: the reality of England. Your description of the Ultimate Battle, 242 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: which I didn't realize. We're not totally sure where the 243 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,359 Speaker 1: battle took place. When the three armies get we are now. 244 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: We are now. There's a wonderful scholar in Charleston, South 245 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: Carolina called Michael Livingstone who has become really the world's 246 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 2: greatest expert on where battles took place, and he's extraordinarily clever. 247 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: But the real credit for discovering the battle site goes 248 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: to a group of amateur archaeologists in Britain who discovered 249 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 2: the site. It's on the wirrald near Liverpool, and Michael 250 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: almost immediately visited and confirmed their discovery. So we do 251 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 2: know now where Brunenberg was fought. But for hundreds of 252 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 2: years the battle site was lost, and indeed the battle 253 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 2: itself was almost forgotten. And yet after Hastings. It's probably 254 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 2: the most important battle fought on British soil. 255 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: Well, that's what I was struck by in the novel 256 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: where you deal with that. I mean, here's this extraordinary 257 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: moment when all these armies come together in one last 258 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: desperate effort to stop the English, and they easily could 259 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: have won. 260 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: They could and should in many ways they should have won. 261 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: It was Athelstan, Alfred's grandson who led the so called English. 262 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: He would have said he led the West Saxons. And 263 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 2: it was a brutal, horrible battle. It was one of 264 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: these battles of the shield Wall, which are almost unthinkable today. 265 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: I mean, when you are within three or four feet 266 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: of your enemy, you can smell him, and you're hacking 267 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: at each other with lead weighted axes and swords and spears. 268 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: They were gruesome battles. Brunenberg was an enormous battle which 269 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: ended up in a total victory for the Saxons. 270 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: And at that point it sort of settles down. But 271 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: I mean the truth is English history is pretty violent 272 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: for virtuale its entire period. 273 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 2: So is American mister speaker. 274 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: Listen, I plead guilty. We've had our share of conflict. 275 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 2: But the making of England was really a war. It 276 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 2: was a brutal war between the Viking invaders and the 277 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: Saxons trying to defend their own territory and retake their territory, 278 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 2: and very little of it was peaceful. It's marked by 279 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 2: a series of battles and it was indeed very gruesome 280 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: and very bloody. 281 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: I want to see if I've captured where you're coming from. 282 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: My reading is that Ughtred is attracted to the Norse life, 283 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: but ultimately as loyal to the English. He always ends 284 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: up being loyal to the concept of England. 285 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: He does, but he was brought up by Danes, and 286 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: he actually loves the day. He marries a Dane and 287 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 2: they appeal to him. He likes their lifestyle, he likes 288 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 2: their attitude to life and death, and in many ways 289 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: he fights like a Dane. There was a kind of 290 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 2: feeling among the Saxons that it took three Saxons to 291 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: defeat one Dane, when Utred basically says, well, in that case, 292 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: we'd better fight like the Danes, and he does. He's 293 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: a Viking at heart, but he's a Viking who's on 294 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: our side. And there were Danes who fought in athols 295 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: Stan's army. By this time they'd settled in England, they'd 296 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 2: married Saxon women, and they felt as English as the English, 297 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: and quite a lot of them were in Atholstan's army 298 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 2: fighting against their Danish and Irish enemies. 299 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: One of the things that striking, and I'm just now 300 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: watching a movie called Redbad, which I think is either 301 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: Danish or Norwegian, but it's about the degree to which 302 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: Christianity is dissolving Paganism. So the Christianity becomes a major 303 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: weapon in terms of unifying England and in terms of 304 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: ultimately undermining Viking civilization. 305 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: I think that's absolutely true, just as it undermines Anglo 306 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 2: Saxon culture. And Ughtred is stubbornly a pagan. I don't 307 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,959 Speaker 2: think that's out of any great belief in pagan gods. 308 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 2: It's basically to annoy Alfred, and having taken that position, 309 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: he sticks to it. But the war was more than 310 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: just a political struggle. It really was a religious struggle, 311 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 2: and Alfred saw it very much in those terms. He 312 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 2: believed that if a Dane converted to Christianity, then that 313 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 2: he became a friend, not an enemy. 314 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: So in a very real sense. The missionary priests are 315 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: a significant part of Alfred's grand strategy. 316 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: They are, indeed, and converting Danish rulers of Viking leaders 317 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 2: to Christianity was vitally important because once they were converted, 318 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 2: he believed they would turn all their followers into Christians, 319 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: who in turn would unite with the Saxon Christians. 320 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: The process of all that, you have moments it's a 321 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: little hard to know who's up and who's done. I mean, 322 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: you have King Canute, for example, who has an enormous 323 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: influence and is one of the strongest leaders, in fact, 324 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: probably the strongest leader in the North in his lifetime. 325 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 2: Oh indeed, he comes a little after and it's Canute 326 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: indeed who is responsible for taking Bebenberg away from the family. 327 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 2: But Canute was an enormously successful and great leader, and 328 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: he is often called Canute the Great too, who takes 329 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 2: England and makes it part of the Viking Empire. 330 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: When you look at all this, I'm fascinated that you 331 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: have managed the nutrient's feast to weave together historical stories 332 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: where you're just a great storyteller worth literally a cookbook. 333 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: It's a brilliant concept. I don't know very many people 334 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: who could have pulled this off. It just struck me 335 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: that the the greed of which the Anglo Saxon diet 336 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: of that period be translated into modern meals. 337 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 2: Well, that's what Suzanne did. I mean, Suzanne was determined 338 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: to make them accessible that if you can go to 339 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 2: almost any supermarket, you can buy the ingredients and then 340 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: she tells you how to prepare them. And it's actually 341 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: rather a healthy diet. 342 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: They didn't have processed sugar for one thing. 343 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 2: There's no process you had to have honey instead, so 344 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 2: there's no sugar in it. And okay, it can be 345 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 2: quite meat heavy, but I like that, so I'm not 346 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 2: going to complain. 347 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: Did they actually have that much meat? 348 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: They certainly had a lot, but not enough to feed 349 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: everybody sort of thing. I'm sure most peasants kept a pig, 350 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: and November was known as the month of slaughter, where 351 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 2: you slaughtered your livestock, just keeping a few alive to 352 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: breed the following year, and you would then salt that 353 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: meat down or smoke the meat, and that would feed 354 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 2: you through the winter. But if you had one or 355 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: two pigs, that didn't provide that much meat for the 356 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 2: whole winter. Meanwhile, the aristocracy, like Good himself, would probably 357 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 2: eat meat year round because they were privileged. 358 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: Now, you also make a point that bread and rolls 359 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: and that sort of product are very central to their 360 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: whole dial. 361 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 2: Bread is very very central, and according to Suzanne who 362 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: has tried cooking some of it, it does taste a 363 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 2: bit different, tastes rather rustic. The one thing it doesn't 364 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: have in it is chips of stone, which they would 365 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 2: have had because as the millwheels ground away, some stone 366 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 2: would chip off and it would end up in the 367 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: flour and you'd bite down on bread and there goes 368 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 2: another molar. 369 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: I was going to say, I think most modern people 370 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: would find that a bit tricky. But baking it, as 371 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, one of the points you might get. 372 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: I think literally having a baker goes back to at 373 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: least two thousand BC, so bread has been integral. 374 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 2: They have the oven, I mean a bread oven is 375 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 2: not easy to make, and right through until at least 376 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: Tudor times, it was often there was just one baker 377 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 2: in town and you took your pies to him to 378 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: have them baked. You could make a pie, but you 379 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 2: didn't have your own oven, so you'd walk it down 380 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 2: the street and give it to the baker and he'd 381 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 2: charge you a penny or two and bake your pie. 382 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: The meat itself was usually cooked over an open fire, 383 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: wasn't it. 384 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: Yes, it was open fire, or it was braised. I 385 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 2: mean they had good cooking pans, but yes, it opened. 386 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 2: A lot of it is open fire cooking. 387 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: Would they have had metal cooking pans? 388 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 2: Oh, yes, yes, I mean, and we've discovered a lot 389 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 2: of them. They had metal cooking pans and metal spits 390 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 2: and enormous cauldrons. 391 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: I've started breeding the gallows for command your ability to 392 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: go from Anglo Saxon food around eight hundred and then 393 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: jumping to eighteen twenty or eighteen ten. They're totally different worlds, 394 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: totally different rhythms. 395 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 2: They are. But I've lived with Sharp now for forty years, 396 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 2: so I mean picking Sharp up again was not difficult. 397 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: I mean, he lurks at the back of my head 398 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 2: all the time, and I've always wanted to write one 399 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 2: more story of Sharp in Spain, and this was it, 400 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 2: and he sprang to life really quite easily. 401 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: Well, thanks to you. I ended up one day touring 402 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: the walls of Taurus Vadra with a local expert and 403 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: just getting a feel for that. I think Wellington's campaign 404 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: is extraordinary at every level, starting in India. 405 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: He was an absolutely extraordinary man. I mean, for my money, 406 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 2: they're certainly the greatest general in British history and probably 407 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 2: in European history. The French would disagree, but then Waterloo 408 00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 2: happened and they can't argue with that. 409 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: I teach a class for major generals and I always 410 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: tell him the story about the head of the horse 411 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: Guards the British Army Headquarters writing Wellington and saying we're 412 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: sending you a new division commander. It's Lord So and so. 413 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: You will have heard rumors that he is crazy, but 414 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: when they released him from the asylum, they assured me 415 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: that he was fine, although I must say he looked 416 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: a little wild in the eye when I said goodbye 417 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: to him at the porch. And I just tell him, 418 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: this is one of his three division commanders, so don't 419 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: tell me you have a problem. 420 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 2: Who then went on to fail spectacularly. Yes, he was 421 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: as mad as a hatter. 422 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: Yes, and so Wellington had to run the army and 423 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: run that division because he had no commander who could 424 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: actually run it's one of those marvelous moments that's sort 425 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: of hard to explain. Yeah, I may have told you 426 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: one time when we did a podcast, but I really 427 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: got turned on to you by General Jim Mattis. We 428 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: were having dinner one night and he said he had 429 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: never understood Waterloo until he read your version, and he said, 430 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: suddenly he could understand it. And that led me into 431 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: Sharps and then everything since then. You say you had 432 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: a four star general Secretary of Defense who thought you 433 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: wrote the best single explanation of Waterloo. I thought that 434 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: was pretty good. 435 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 2: Waterloo is just a great story. I mean, it is 436 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 2: an extraordinary story because although the battle begins around eleven 437 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, by about half past seven that night, 438 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 2: you really couldn't tell who was going to win. Which 439 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 2: is why when I wrote my only nonfiction book, which 440 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 2: is the story of Waterloo, it felt in many ways 441 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: like writing a novel, simply because the story was on 442 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 2: the knife edge all the way through until the last chapter. 443 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: If the Prussians had not shown up, could Wellington have 444 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: stood or would he have been forced back? 445 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: Probably forced back, because obviously Napoleon could have thrown more 446 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: troops at him. I mean, Napoleon made so many mistakes 447 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 2: that day that it's very difficult. I mean, I'm told 448 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: by people who wargame, but it's almost impossible for the 449 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 2: British to win on the war gaming tables. But you know, 450 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 2: the raw factor is that they did. 451 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: One of the things I'm curious about when you stay 452 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: with Sharps for a second. Somehow this relatively small professional 453 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: army had an enormous sense of morale and pride. They 454 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: were willing to take on you Jodge, just because they 455 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: were who they. 456 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 2: Were, Yes, they were, and it was partly, I think 457 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: because they were so superbly led. I mean a sergeant 458 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 2: wrote after the wars, all we ever ask is for 459 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: Wellington's leaders. We know we'd be well led, we know 460 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 2: we'd be well fed, and we know we'd win. And 461 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 2: Wellington himself reckoned that army was the finest army probably 462 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 2: in all Britain's history, and he only wished he had 463 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 2: it with him at Waterloo, which he didn't, of course, 464 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 2: but the same thing applied. They had total faith in him, 465 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 2: and I mean he once said that the presence of 466 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: Napoleon on a battlefield was worth at least ten thousand men. 467 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: Some people say he said forty thousand men, but I 468 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 2: would say the presence of Wellington on a battlefield was 469 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 2: probably worth the same. They had total faith in him. 470 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 2: He was a general who never lost a battle. 471 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: Now you cover this in the very early sharpest books. 472 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: To understand Wellington and the Peninsula, you have to look 473 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: at Wellesley as he was then in India. That the 474 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: Indian experience shapes him in a way that no other 475 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: British general has been shaped. 476 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely, he learned his trade really in India. And in 477 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 2: later life he was asked what was he most proud 478 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 2: of and he answered assay, which was at one of 479 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 2: the battles in India, And to say, he took an 480 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 2: enormous risk and threw his small army really into a 481 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 2: position where it could have been completely defeated and won. 482 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 2: And he was incredibly proud of his strategy on that day. 483 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: And he's often called a great defensive general, which he was, 484 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 2: and this is really an insult to him, which the 485 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 2: French rather liked. But in fact he was also a 486 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: great attacking general, as he proved a to say, and 487 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 2: forever after Salamanca, Manka was an extraordinary attacking battle in 488 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 2: which he attacked and, as somebody said, destroyed forty thousand 489 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: frenchmen in forty minutes. 490 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: I think that's the one where he's sitting on the horse, yes, 491 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: holding the chicken leg, and he suddenly realized that they're split, 492 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: and he throws the chicken leg and says, I have him. 493 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 2: Yes, is Marmon aperdue monche Alava Marmont of my dear Aliva. 494 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: Who is this Spanish Liaisan officer? Marmont is lost and 495 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 2: he chucks the chicken leg over his shoulder and gallops 496 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 2: after the third division. 497 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: But you know your description of a say, I'll just 498 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: say this for all of our listeners, every rudder three times, 499 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: because you capture the Scottish battalions. Are the Scott's battalions, 500 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,959 Speaker 1: the way they fought, and the discipline and the odds 501 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: they fought against, and the degree to which at some 502 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: point one side of the other is going to have 503 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: its morale break and the side that has his morale 504 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: break is doomed. 505 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: Is doomed. Yes. And it was interesting in the Scottish 506 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 2: battalian one of them got cut up very badly, and 507 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 2: an Indian farmer, when I visited at Say told me 508 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 2: about finding the bones when he plowed the field, and 509 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: he said they were very big men, and I thought, okay, 510 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,959 Speaker 2: but I doubted that they were any larger than the 511 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 2: rest of the army. But it turned out he was right, 512 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 2: and I came across figures that showed that Scottish soldiers 513 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,719 Speaker 2: on the whole were three or four inches taller than 514 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 2: the English and Welsh soldiers. And the Scots were enormously brave. 515 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 2: And it's more than morale, it's also discipline. It's an 516 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 2: iron discipline. As one battalion commander said to his men 517 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 2: at the Battle of Waterloo, as long as you stand, 518 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 2: you'll live. But if just one of you turns and 519 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 2: runs away, were all dead. So just stand. And they did. 520 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 2: And the morning of Waterloo Napoleon was warned it never 521 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 2: fought against British infantry, and he was worn by his 522 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: generals that they were incredibly tough to beat. And he 523 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 2: rather dismissed and said, just because you've all been defeated 524 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: by Wellington, you think he's a great general. But I 525 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 2: tell you he's a bad general and his soldiers are 526 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 2: bad soldiers. 527 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: There are two things about that whole French relationship with Wellington, 528 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: I've never fully understood. The first is that the British 529 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: figure out, because the French are so reliant on their 530 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: artillery that if you just stay slightly behind the military crest, 531 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: virtually all the French cannonade will be irrelevant. It'll be noisy, 532 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: but it's not going to hurt anybody. 533 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 2: It would hurt a few, but not many. 534 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: But the French never seem to understand this. 535 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 2: No, they didn't. 536 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: I mean, in all those battles, Wellington does exactly the 537 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: same thing. They're just slightly behind the military crest. The 538 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: bombardment's over, and. 539 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: He tells them are to lie down so that a 540 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 2: cannonball or shell that skims the crest won't hit them 541 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 2: in the head. And there's a rather untactful moment before 542 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 2: the Battle of Waterloo when Wellington visits Luca, the Prussian general, 543 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 2: and sees his men lined up on the slopes at 544 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 2: len Yi and says, that's not very sensible. Why don't 545 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: you take them back over the crest where they can't 546 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 2: be hit by the French artillery. And I think it 547 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 2: was nisenhow who was an aide to camp to Bluesche 548 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 2: rather cavalierly said our men like to see the enemy. 549 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: Well his men did see the enemy and died. They 550 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: were cut down by French artillery two days later at Waterloo. 551 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 2: The same thing did not happen to Wellington because he'd 552 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 2: retired them over the crest. You know, it's the oldest 553 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 2: trick in the book, hyder men from the enemy. 554 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: And the second part of that is that consistently for 555 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: the entire Peninsula campaign up through Waterloo, the British ability 556 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: to shoot from the line against the column, so that 557 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,479 Speaker 1: the British given anything not even parody. If they're only 558 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: on numbers, say four to one, they're actually going to 559 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: bring far more muskets to bear than the French. 560 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 2: Are yes, And the British were the only army to 561 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: actually practice with live ammunition. It sounds extreme ordinary, but 562 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 2: I guess ammunition was precious and short, and the others didn't. 563 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: And the French relied heavily on the column, which is 564 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: a very tight formation. But nobody rather in the middle 565 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 2: of the column can actually fire a musket. All they 566 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 2: can do is just keep marching forward, while the guys 567 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 2: in the front two ranks and down the side files 568 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,239 Speaker 2: may be able to fire, and they're faced by this 569 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 2: very thin line only too deep of red coats, where 570 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 2: every man can fire. And the French did realize this, 571 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 2: I mean, they were not completely stupid, and they developed 572 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: a tactic to get over it, which was to advancing 573 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 2: column because it was a quick way to advance, but 574 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 2: just before you got to within firing range you deployed 575 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 2: into line. But that didn't work either. They tried that 576 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 2: at Waterloo and it didn't work at all. So the 577 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 2: line versus column is a trophy of the Peninsula Wall 578 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 2: and indeed of Waterloo. 579 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: It's a fascinating process. And of course the other thing 580 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: is you have to have pretty good logistics to have 581 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: live fire practice. 582 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 2: You do, and Wellington was a master of logistics, which 583 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 2: is really that's one of the things he learned in 584 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 2: India how to keep his armies supplied, and throughout his career, 585 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 2: logistics is a key to almost everything. I mean, his 586 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,959 Speaker 2: worst moments were in the retreat from Bergos, where logistics 587 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 2: fell apart because of the mistake of a quartermaster. And 588 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 2: that was probably his most miserable time in all his career. 589 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: Then title a lesson not to let it happen. 590 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: Yes, he blamed himself if something went wrong. It was 591 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: his fault. 592 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: I just want to say your new book, Utred's Feast 593 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: is about as creative and unique an approach as I've 594 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: seen in a series. Anybody who has not started either 595 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: the series involving Utrid or the series involving Sharp, you 596 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: have a wonderful experience ahead of you. This is one 597 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: of the great novelists of our time. He writes just 598 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: remarkably useful books where you just learn a lot of 599 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: stuff while also being entertained. Bernard, I really want to 600 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: thank you, as I think you know, I get great 601 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: joy out of doing a podcast with you because I'm 602 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: so impressed and fascinated with your abilities, and I really 603 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: appreciate you taking the time to talk with us both 604 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: about the art of being a writer and about Utred's Feast. 605 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: And in April, Sharp's Command will be coming out and 606 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: hopefully we'll have a chance to talk again. 607 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 2: It's always a pleasure and a privilege to talk to you, 608 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 2: mister speaker. 609 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Bernard Cornwell. You can get 610 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,239 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, Utridz Feast on 611 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: our show page at newsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced 612 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: by Gingish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is 613 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: Guarnsey Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork 614 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks 615 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,239 Speaker 1: to the team at Ginglish three sixty. If you've been 616 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and 617 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: both rate us with five stars and give us a 618 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, 619 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: listeners of neut World can sign up for my three 620 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: free weekly columns at Gingrish three sixty dot com slash newsletter. 621 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: I'm newt Gingrich. This is neutrald