WEBVTT - Selects: How Gossip Works 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.720 M Hey everybody, it's Saturday, and I've got to tell 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:06.360 you I heard something about Jerry the other day that 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:08.440 I don't know if I should say, but if you 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.200 promise not to tell anyone, I will tell you right now. 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:17.480 She is pretty great. That's called bad gossip. No one 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.079 wants to hear gossip like that. The only good gossip 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:22.960 is maybe to say that Jerry is not great for 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:24.639 a list of reasons. But I'm not going to do 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:26.960 that because Jerry is great. But you could listen to 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:32.800 this episode from December, a Christmas episode. It's all about 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:40.320 gossip and it's called How Gossip Works. Welcome to Stuff 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:48.839 you should know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:51.320 and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.280 Charles w Chuck Bryant and uh, it's just two of 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:58.360 us again. Man, not getting any easier. This is just 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:02.560 let's getting old, it is, man. We need Jerry back. 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.480 Where are you, Jerry? Where did you go? I selfish? 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:08.320 Jerry wants to be at home with her baby. Yeah, 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.520 we all went to shopping at Kmart and she wandered 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:13.479 off and we haven't seen her since. We all want 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:15.760 to be at home with Jerry's baby. Sure, that's a 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.760 cute baby, but we can't be you know the old 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.199 joke that Jerry could be replaced with a those dipping 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:27.080 birds just to hit record. We were just kidding. It's 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:31.760 that's happening. It is true, maybe not the post production stuff, 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:37.039 but definitely the recording thing. Clearly takes a finger to say, Okay, 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.600 you guys are rolling. Yeah, we cannot stop griping about 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:42.920 this time. I know it's just weird. You know, when 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:46.000 a threesome becomes to twosome, things get awkward. Yeah, I try, 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.880 it becomes a diade, or when it twosome becomes a 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.560 threesome that gets super awkward. Or I mean really, anytime 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.680 you're moving people in and out of some sort of dynamics, 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:58.880 it can be weird. Transition could be rough, I think 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.400 is the that's what you put on the T shirt. Ultimately, 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.840 al right, the transition is rough anytime you're moving people 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:08.800 in and out of a dynamic. Ready, yes, didn't know 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.320 you say that already. Yeah we're recording, Chuck, I have 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:16.960 something for you. Right. I am not much of a 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:20.440 gossip at all. I just don't do it. But do 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:25.800 you know who does Jerry a lot, and she's really vicious. 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.680 I know she's not here right now, but just between 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:32.640 the two of us, I don't gossip. Jerry does, and 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:34.960 you should really watch out for her. I heard that 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:38.240 she gossips. I'm not saying that, but I just heard that. 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.000 I got you, well, I've seen her do it. She's 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.680 gossip to me because she finds me very important and 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:45.960 likes to confide to me. But it's just so vicious. 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.240 So we just gossiped. We did. That was play acting. 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:53.840 The ironic thing was that I was gossiping about how 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:58.520 I don't gossip. That that came through. Huh, everybody gossips, Yeah, 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:02.400 I guess so. I mean, apparently people gossip way more 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.799 than they realize. But I think you're I think gossip 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.160 is a normal thing. It has such a bad connotation 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:11.840 though that people say, like, I don't gossip, I'm not 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:15.440 a gossip but liars. Technically, not necessarily even liars. I 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:19.040 think it also as far as like linguists and psychologists 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.040 are concerned, it comes from a misunderstanding of what gossip, 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:25.600 what constitutes gossip. That's right, Like, at its basic, barest, 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:30.880 bare bottomed element, gossip is simply too, or it can 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:34.440 be more but a couple of people speaking about a 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:38.440 third person's business while the third person isn't there. There's 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.520 another person who's being talked about who isn't there. It 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:46.040 doesn't necessarily mean you're talking about how they're just just 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.400 what allows you parents. They are sure spending baby shoe 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.280 money on gambling rather than gambling in order to get 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.560 more shoes. That's bad parenting right there. There's all sorts 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.000 of stuff you can say, but you could also say, actually, 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:04.000 that guy is a great dude. He spends all of 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.880 his money on nothing but baby shoes. That's gossip. It 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.640 is gossip, and it's not necessarily harmful. It's in this 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:13.680 case you're you're helping someone else's social status in the 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:17.440 other people's eyes. That's still gossip. Yeah, I think, um, 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.360 what's this tracy of stuff you missed in history class? 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.440 Wrote this one? That is true? She's always thorough and 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:27.919 uh she included in here something I thought was pretty 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:33.480 pertinent gossip v rumor Yeah. Uh, And there are differences 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:37.279 in Um, well, I say there's differences, but if you 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.120 ask professionals who study this, and there are weirdos who 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.240 do that Um, they will say sometimes now it's the 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:47.680 same thing. Or a rumor is just a type of gossip. Uh, 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.719 here's some other distinguishing factors. Gossip is based in fact, 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:54.840 rumors are based in hypotheses. Um, I don't know about 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:56.960 that one. That makes sense to me because it kind 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.960 of ties in with the last one. Yeah, gossip is 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.120 a tool for maintaining social order, which we're gonna talk 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.360 about at length. Rumor is a tool for explaining things 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.640 that people do not understand. I'm not sure I get 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.520 that one. Like there's garbage raining from the sky, it's 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.920 the government, that's a rumor, okay. Whereas if you're like 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.320 Charles is up on the roof again dumping his garbage 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:24.120 out on the street's technically so yeah, or that's just 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:26.919 laying it out there, you know. Yeah true. Uh. And 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.520 then finally, gossip or late something people believe has happened, 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:33.000 but rumor expresses something people hope or fear will happen. 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.839 So I have my own hypothesis of the distinction between 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:42.760 rumor and gossip. It's here, Uh, rumor is uncurated gossip rumors. 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:44.960 Any dude walking down the street, you can be like, 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:47.600 there's garbage falling from this guy and it's the government. 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.359 There's no bond that's formed. There's no requirement of a bond, 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:56.080 whereas gossip requires some sort of connection, or you're forming 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.320 a connection from the gossip. You know what I'm saying. 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:02.159 Rumbor is just for anybody. Gossip is between confidence to 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:05.240 an extent. Yeah, and Tracy points that out too, And 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.280 that is why supposedly celebrity gossip isn't qualified, doesn't qualify 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.760 as gossip because it's a third party that doesn't know 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.479 the others in general, unless it's you know, Jennifer Ranison, 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.560 it's talking smack about Angelina. No, she would never do that. 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.520 Oh really, No, she loves courting cocks. They're still friends. 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.240 Huh sure. Why doesn't she ever have around cougar Town? 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.400 Then I think she was on cougar Town? Well I 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.440 stayed corrected, although I have no idea because I've never 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.360 seen cougar down. Did you hear about what happened when 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.760 she was on cougar Town? I heard she washed her 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:40.200 hair and heavy and water. That's Shannon Doherty? Yeah, that's right. 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.640 Is that a rumor? Gossip? I don't know, because we 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:47.120 don't know Shannon dherty. Uh. And then there are some 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:51.160 other stipulations that researchers point out for gossip that I 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:53.600 also take issue with. Some of these. Um, the conversation 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.800 takes place in private usually the case, yeah, if not 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.200 like actual private depends on what private means. You you, 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.320 everybody's got the shoulders turn. There's like a creation of 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.440 a private situation. Yeah, I got you. Uh. People are 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:09.640 saying it as if it were fact, even though it's 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.680 not confirmed. That's definitely true. Yeah, but that's not necessarily 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:15.440 the case. That's I take issue with that one. It's 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:17.600 kind of like you were saying, like I heard, but 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:19.720 I haven't checked it out to take it with a 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:26.840 grain of salt. But get this yeah man uh people, Yeah, 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:28.720 we already talked about that knowing each other. And then 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.520 the body language and tone, uh suggests a moral judgment. 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.920 That's a big one, you know, like when people use 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:40.120 this tone. But again, that's malicious gossip. Typically there's such 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:42.240 a thing, So this is it should be said. Tracy 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.360 doesn't really say it in this Um. I think she 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.360 was drinking while she was writing this one. That's what 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:51.040 I heard. Um, she didn't lay out that there's really 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.960 two types of gossip. One is malicious gossip. That's the 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:56.640 type of gossip people think about when they hear the 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:00.080 word gossip. But the other type, the far more are 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:05.040 apparently far more prevalent type, is um regular gossip. Yeah, 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:11.160 there's some weird, unsubstantiated stat here that only that five 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:15.520 was malicious, Yeah among most gossip. Yeah, how in the 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:17.960 world did they pull that out of their key start? 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:26.160 Here's that's a great question. So they are linguists, historians, uh, anthropologists, psychologists, 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.000 people who started studying gossip for a very long time. 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.200 Everyone is aware of gossip, but they're like, it's just noise. 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.440 It's not to be studied, it's to be ignored. And 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:37.680 as a matter of fact, there's this really great article 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.720 in The Atlantic that talked about gossip and how it 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.560 was viewed um and specifically, there was this thing in 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.560 sixteenth and seventeenth century England they didn't like it, called 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.040 the scolds bridle. And if you want to see what 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.120 a scolds bridle is, you should check that out online, 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.600 because there are actual such things. But they're basically iron 0:08:55.720 --> 0:09:01.079 masks with like points sticking into the The woman who 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.400 was accused of gossip's mouth usually a woman and she 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:06.760 would just have to wear that and be publicly humiliated. 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:09.640 A lot of them had like a leash leading from them. 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.160 So I guess the gossip or the scold is what 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.320 they used to call, could be paraded around town, right, Yeah, 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.480 and also get the feeling that a lot of women 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.040 were probably made to wear those who just talked too much. Yeah, 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.640 I would I have the same the same impression because 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.280 of the time period of So that's how people typically 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:30.800 viewed gossip. It was something to be stamped out. It 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:36.040 was something that was um very undesirable, and academia treated 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:38.439 it the same way. Then World War two came around 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:42.400 and I think the government saw that there was some 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:46.440 real harm that could be done with gossip, with rumors, 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:48.960 and they wanted to start to understand that. So that 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:52.640 kind of led to the basis of academia investigating what 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:56.320 gossip was, what rumors are, and then um, over time 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.679 organizations got in on the act because there came this 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.040 idea you that if the rumor mill or the gossip 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.640 mill in your office was really going over time, you 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:10.679 needed to stamp that out. True. They've found the opposite 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:12.720 is actually true. Yeah, they found it can do a 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.079 lot in a workplace to keep people in line, Uh, 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:19.120 either by scaring them in line or what it What 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:20.760 it seems like a lot of gossip does in that 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.600 kind of environment, is it establishes like the norms and 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.800 the culture is expected out of the bosses. That's like 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.120 one low level that's like low level background gossip if 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.440 it's peaking and really working over time. You, from what 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.600 I understand, you're not supposed to attack the gossips. What 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.040 you're supposed to do is be more transparent at the top, 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.360 and then people don't have reason to gossip. So it's 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.000 not It doesn't mean that you have a lot of 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:48.600 gossips at your place. That's a normal human situation. As 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.120 we'll see, it means that your managers and the people 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.520 who are running the show aren't being open enough for 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:57.520 the the hoi polois tastes, right, see what I mean? Yeah, 0:10:57.679 --> 0:10:59.400 good point, And that was a big thing that came 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.000 out of study it. But to answer your question, I'm 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.760 about to finish, they study it by eavesdropping on like 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:09.000 people who are talking in cafeterious. That's how about the 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.880 only way you can Yeah, because it's so spontaneous and 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.240 it's largely unconscious. Yeah, unless it's you know, just some 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:19.400 dumb pole where you're asking people about gossip and self 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.280 reporting poles like that. I don't put a lot of 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.000 stock in you know, Well, actually they're funny to look at. 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.160 There's one that found that about we spend about three 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:31.280 quarters of our time gossiping apparently. Yeah, and that's in 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:36.040 the broadest sense of the definition, right, not necessarily malicious. Yeah, 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.800 because about five percent of that supposed lyst malicious. But 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.760 people self report gossiping about they they spend about thirty 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.200 percent of their time. So rather than people are like, oh, 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.560 only gossip, yea, and all that comes from eavesdropping on 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.880 people and then asking them afterwards whether they gossip. Tracy 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.400 points out rightfully so that most world religions have always 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.400 said gossip is a bad thing. Uh, include in the 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.920 Christian Bible. Uh in Leviticus, Thou'll shalt not go up 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.080 and down as a talebearer among thy people. Oh that 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:12.679 was good. By the way, I wanna echo the kudos 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:18.040 that have wrong throughout social media, applauding your scary spider 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:22.760 growing redneck man. In the Halloween episode, it was cleardis 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.560 a slack jold yokel sort of and my friend Big John, well, 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:27.520 it was good. It was a mashup. I appreciate that 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:29.920 it was Big John in New York. No, he's in 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:34.160 he's in Atlanta. Okay. Um. I actually thought your your 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:36.559 vomit take was the funniest part of the whole thing, 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:42.640 the gag, thank you, thank you. Uh. Jewish tour always 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.000 also says so in Buddhism. We've talked about Buddhism before 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.600 the eight full Path to Enlightenment. No place for gossip there, 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.120 my friend, No way, not if you want to become 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.440 one with the universe, no gossiping. And like like I 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.440 said earlier too, it's not just the religious hypes that 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:04.640 are against it. People. And remember the business world kind 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:06.480 of started looking in on this, and they're like, don't 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:08.560 gossip if you want to be a good person, don't 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:13.360 gossip and spreading unless you're spreading a gossip rumor that 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.640 we want you to spread. Right, that's the official company line. Uh. 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.920 And then there's this dude, Robin Dunbar, who wrote a 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:25.400 book called Grooming, Gossip and the Evolution of Language. And 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:29.040 I looked into this guy. He he really goes for it. 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.120 He says that gossip is the whole reason that we 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:37.559 have language, and it evolved from primates grooming each other 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.880 and that took so much time to groom one another 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:45.160 and it wasn't efficient. That language was created in order 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.559 to not have to groom one another, and so you 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.680 would vocal groom, that's what he called it. So this 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:52.800 kind of a big deal. Let's let's take a break 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.679 for a second because we're pretty deep into this, and 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.520 we'll talk about Dunbar and his mad ideas after this. 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.320 All right, Dunbar, Dunbar can't put them off any longer, 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.400 Robin Dunbar. Yeah, that's a pretty out there theory. I 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.800 think like Dunbar is saying, we developed language so we 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.000 could gossip in in essence. Yeah, the tide of grooming 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.040 is where he loses me a bit, and vocal grooming, 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.640 I'm just he says basically it was a more efficient 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:43.600 way to uh service your allies rather than grooming one another. Right, 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.680 So I think what he's saying is that when you 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.480 win a primate grooms another primate, it's an act of 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.880 um kindness. It's saying like I'm doing something nice for you. 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.040 It gives the other primate who's being groomed, an opportunity 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.520 to reciprocate, INSUREM and even stronger bond. Right, scratch my back. 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:03.640 But it takes a little while to do all this 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.280 stuff because you're actually going through the act of grooming, 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.480 whereas if you just gossip about somebody, Um, you can 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:15.160 do a lot of that same stuff, but just by talking. Yeah, 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:16.440 but I don't get what it has to do with 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:19.880 picking knits out of fur. It's it's I think what 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.560 he's saying is it's it developed out of that. It 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.920 serves a lot of the same purposes. Plus also it's 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:32.400 entirely possible that gossip began around the time or I 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:34.840 guess during grooming sessions. Think about it, If you're just 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:36.880 sitting there picking knits out of somebody, are you just 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:41.240 gonna sit there silently not chat start chatting? How how 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.080 easy is it going to be to lead to tuck 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:47.080 tuck and what he did after he ate that for minute? Apple, Sure, 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:51.400 it's like the barbershop or the beauty shop, right kind of. Um, 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:53.640 there are some different roles though that it does play 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:57.000 in social interactions where I guess the grooming thing comes 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:01.359 into play. Um, entertaining one another, like you said, influence 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:05.280 on one another. That's a big one. Um. Exchanging information, 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:09.120 that's important, uh. And one of the biggest ones is 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.960 learning from mistakes that UH linguists point out is a 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.960 really big part of gossip, or a part of positive gossip, 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:23.480 and that there's oftentimes a moral lesson attached to it. Yeah, 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.320 like you don't want this to happen to you, right, No, exactly, 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.440 and it kind of um in that respect. It gets 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.640 across somebody who's perhaps a little more established in a group, 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.520 maybe an older person, like ingratiate yourself, right, But but 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:38.440 it's also saying, like I'm a part of this group. 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:40.560 You're a little newer than I am. Let me tell 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:42.520 you the story about what this guy did when he 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:46.880 transgressed against the group and bad things befell him. Like 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:50.480 you said, don't let this happen to you. Don't transgress 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:54.240 the group's boundaries, right, And that's important if you get 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:56.400 if you're like a new hire, they say, a lot 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:00.520 of gossip flies, uh. Like I remember the movie Be Big, 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.440 Remember when Tom Hanks gets hired. Like the very first 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.520 thing that happens is John Lovitts comes over and starts 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:09.919 talking about all the gossip of everyone in the office. 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.160 I don't remember that part. Oh yeah, he talks about 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.280 like this lady is easy and this guy's a jerk, 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.639 and it's just pretty common. I think when you get 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:18.399 a new job, there's always someone in there that's like 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.400 And what they're doing, though, is they're not just it's 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:27.480 not purely they're trying to help themselves. It's socialization. It's 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:29.520 in dr nature. Oh that's not what I thought you 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:31.280 were gonna say. No, Like, I think they're trying to 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.320 be like, well here's a new ally I can get right, Yeah, 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.280 so let me let me you know. I mean, it's 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.960 it's they're also it's reciprocal, I guess to a certain degree. Yeah, 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:43.320 both people are getting something out of it. But I mean, 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:45.760 you make a good point. The person who is doing 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.199 the gossiping, especially in that situation, is setting themselves up 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:53.679 as a like a wise older sage or advisor, like 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.199 I know this place. You come to me if you 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.280 want some information. Well you'll find though over the years, 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.240 is that you should. The first person who comes up 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:03.879 and starts gossiping to you about how the office works 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:09.280 is usually also the most disliked. Yeah, you know, that's 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:11.879 why they cast John Lovett. He's great for that. That 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.679 or the dude with forehead the size of a dinner 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:18.520 plate who was in all the eighties movies as that character? 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:22.720 Was he the jerkin big I don't know, is the 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:27.800 dad from Home Alone? No? No, no, this is um 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:31.000 the coked up sidekick from the eighties with the huge forehead. 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:33.800 He was in About You. He was the sidekicking mad 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.119 about you. Oh that guy? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, same 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:40.520 same function. Yeah, he's uh. He's in that show now, 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:48.359 ah with Joey Tribbiani. It's called Joey, Melissa and Joey. No, 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:52.080 he's on the episodes. Yeah, yeah, he's on episodes too, Okay, great. 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.360 Does he play himself now? He plays a jerk? Um 0:18:55.760 --> 0:19:01.199 uh TV executive perfect, exactly. I love that guy that. 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:02.800 He's such a good actor. No, that's what I'm saying. 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.000 But he always plays that part. He's definitely he's got 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:08.800 that part down. You're right, he's not a romantic lead. Um. 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.919 A lot of times. The feeling of superiority is another 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.879 big part of gossip, like I would never do this um. 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.160 And Tracy also points out the old schaden freuda, which 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.960 is one of my favorite words. It's a good word 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:25.000 and one of my least favorite things. That's you must 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.479 be very ambivalent about that word. What do you mean? Well, 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.120 if you love it but you also hate what it means, well, 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.439 let's got to tear you up inside. Well. I just 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:36.320 don't like someone delighting in someone else's misfortune unless it's 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.920 a bad person. Yeah, Like if the Jimmy John's guy 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:42.119 like shot his toe off on a big game hunt. 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.240 Oh yeah, he's a big game hunter. I would probably 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.960 think that was kind of you know, just as I 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.960 think that's acceptable shot in freuda, Okay, especially if it 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:53.760 was just a relatively minor injury. You know, you go 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:58.400 shod in. Yeah, you say shaden shod and frauda. That's 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.240 how I say it, So, Chuck, kind of what a 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.919 couple of Like we've were kind of dancing back and 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:08.960 forth across this line, like going to the office, setting 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:10.720 up the first day and having somebody come over and 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:13.000 tell you how the things work. Yes, there might be 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.000 a little bit of malicious gossip in there, but for 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.640 the most part, that's not bad gossip. That's neutral gossip, right, 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.040 But putting someone else down or talking about how how 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:26.840 much superior you are by not you would never do 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:31.760 what they did. That's definitely the malicious variety. And there's 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:39.680 an idea that if gossip evolved like um, Robin yeah, like, 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:44.200 like Robin Leach says in his post Rich and Famous 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:48.680 Career he became an anthropologist, you know, Um, Robin Leach 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:53.800 says that if if language evolved as a means of gossiping, 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:59.679 the guy takes it further by saying, Um, the reason gossip, 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:01.760 of the reason we needed that in the first place 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.760 was because we grew out of these little hunter gatherer 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.040 bands of like fifteen people, and as our societies grew 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.760 larger and larger, we weren't as able to be able 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:14.880 to keep tabs personally on others in this group that's 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:16.800 getting bigger and bigger, So you don't know who to trust. 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:18.800 You know, if I'm going to leave my crops to 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:21.000 somebody while I go on a walk about or something, 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:22.800 I need to make sure that all my crops are 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:24.240 going to be there when I get back, you know, 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.480 but I don't really know this guy. Gossiping serves that function. 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:30.639 It's it's like a stand in for being able to 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.280 keep tabs on everybody else in the society, because when 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.760 you gossip with somebody, you're sharing a trust, a bond 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:40.000 that they're not going to use that information against you 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:42.879 that you shared with them. And um, so there's a 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.760 there's a definite element of trust to it. And when 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:52.040 when people gossip in a larger society, they're they're trusting 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:54.359 that the person is either vouching for the person or 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:57.639 they're being warned against trusting that third party. Right, So 0:21:57.680 --> 0:21:59.480 it works in that same way that it's like a 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.800 it's a means of um keeping tabs on everybody at 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:06.080 the same time. On the other hand, or at the 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.840 same time, it's also um a means of social control 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.520 because if you know people are gossiping about everybody else, 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.040 then surely they're gonna gossip about you too, which means 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:20.840 you better just be an upstanding, upright person. Yeah, there 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:25.720 was this uh, this what's his first name, Fineberg, let's 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.679 just say Dr Fineberg, Dr Fineberg at Toronto in Toronto, 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.480 University of Toronto. He's done some studies and he did 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:37.080 find in fact that uh, basically they did these studies 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:40.000 where they were um, were you were allowed to exclude 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:44.720 non co operators in like a group work setting, and 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:47.240 they found that you you set them out for one game, 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:49.720 like you've not been playing nicely, so you go sit 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:51.760 over there in the corner, and when they came back, 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:55.159 they were more likely to behave in other rounds. And uh, 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:58.280 if they knew that their behavior was gossiped about people, 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.879 sort of like what you're talking about, the staring, Like 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:04.879