WEBVTT - Episode 6 – The Decision

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<v Speaker 1>It's the latest turn in a battle by Montgomery County

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<v Speaker 1>Prosecutor John McCarthy to get Hoggle declared competent to stand trial,

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<v Speaker 1>despite doctor's opinions that she's not. Hogel has been in

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<v Speaker 1>a secure state psychiatric hospital since the children's disappearance in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty fourteen. Their bodies have never been found, and.

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<v Speaker 2>April doctors report at Hogle's competency is unrestorable. The state's

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<v Speaker 2>attorney's office has continuously challenged this conclusion.

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<v Speaker 3>It's November twenty twenty two, and Catherine Hoggle, charged with

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<v Speaker 3>two counts of murder, has been considered incompetent for nearly

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<v Speaker 3>five years.

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<v Speaker 2>The Montgomery County community has wondered what happened to three

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<v Speaker 2>year old Sarah and two year old Jacob. Their mother,

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<v Speaker 2>thirty six year old Katherine Hoggele, was the last person

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<v Speaker 2>seen with them. She was charged with murder after refusing,

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<v Speaker 2>police say to share any information about their whereabouts.

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<v Speaker 3>The media following the case has ebbed and flowed over

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<v Speaker 3>the years since the kids disappeared, but this week they

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<v Speaker 3>are back in full force. In three days, murder charges

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<v Speaker 3>will be dropped against Catherine Hoggele if she is not

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<v Speaker 3>found competent to stand twile this is according to state law.

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<v Speaker 4>Hey really down to the wire here, huh Yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>Three days of.

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<v Speaker 3>Hearings, Sarah and I are catching up with Troy Turner,

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<v Speaker 3>his wife Stephanie, and their friend and lawyer, Matt Alleged.

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<v Speaker 6>It's just really overwhelming. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 7>I mean, I think she's going to be out. I

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<v Speaker 7>just think she's going to be out, and I.

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<v Speaker 5>Think that's the wrong thing.

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<v Speaker 8>I think that society looks at her as a child murderer,

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<v Speaker 8>and so they're like, dude, we'll never let someone like

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<v Speaker 8>her out.

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<v Speaker 9>But that's just not the way the world works.

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<v Speaker 5>My read is that it doesn't look good.

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<v Speaker 3>Over three days, Judge James Bonifront has been hearing testimony

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<v Speaker 3>about whether or not Catherine could capably assist her attorney

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<v Speaker 3>in her own defense. As part of the state's argument,

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<v Speaker 3>prosecutors asked the judge to go back and watch tapes

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<v Speaker 3>of Catherine during this and prior hearings to pay attention

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<v Speaker 3>to her interactions with her attorney, David Felson, her attentiveness

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<v Speaker 3>and body language.

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<v Speaker 5>During the cross examination.

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<v Speaker 1>She's sitting there yelling at the attorney, pulling him over,

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<v Speaker 1>pointing at notes telling him things.

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<v Speaker 10>The last day she came in, she brought in a

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<v Speaker 10>piece of paper to Felson, handed to him where she

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<v Speaker 10>had highlighted things for him.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that's where I keep going.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, there has to be at least some chance because

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<v Speaker 4>they were literally doing in front of him what they're

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<v Speaker 4>saying they can't do.

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<v Speaker 11>All right, Well, well you really await news and thank

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<v Speaker 11>you for your time again tonight.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks thanks Bie.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Beth Carris and this is Unrestorable, an original podcast

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<v Speaker 3>from anonymous content and iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 5>So doctor Brown, would you please raise your right hand

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<v Speaker 5>and listen to the courtroom clerk.

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<v Speaker 12>Please THEMSLF swear or firma the bounties a perjurb that

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<v Speaker 12>the response is giving us think it's maybe the whole

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<v Speaker 12>truth or nothing but the truth.

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<v Speaker 5>He thank you.

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<v Speaker 3>This is the hearing Troy has been pushing for for

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<v Speaker 3>more than eight years. He wants Catherine questioned by a judge,

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<v Speaker 3>her competency examined by a court outside of what he

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<v Speaker 3>sees as her protectors at Perkins. He's been trying to

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<v Speaker 3>convince anyone who will listen that Catherine needs to be

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<v Speaker 3>held accountable. This competency hearing is his last chance. If

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<v Speaker 3>she is yet again determined to be not competent to

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<v Speaker 3>stand trial, the murder charges will be dismissed in advance

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<v Speaker 3>of the December first deadline, and Troy's determination to have

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<v Speaker 3>her charged with his children's murders will be defeated. Maybe

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<v Speaker 3>for good.

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<v Speaker 5>Doctor Stationer, informing Adam Brown, thank you.

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<v Speaker 3>Doctor Adam Brown, a psychiatrist at Clipton T. Perkins Psychiatric Hospital,

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<v Speaker 3>is the doctor who most recently evaluated Catherine and concluded

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<v Speaker 3>she was incompetent.

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<v Speaker 5>When you conducted your evaluation of miss Hovell.

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<v Speaker 3>What diagnosis did you confirm, doctor Brown, is being questioned

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<v Speaker 3>by David Felson, Catherine's attorney.

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<v Speaker 12>I confirm the diagnosis of schizophrenia any other diagnosis. She

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<v Speaker 12>also has diagnoses of a major depressive disorder and generalized

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<v Speaker 12>anxiety disorder.

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<v Speaker 11>And are the psychotic related manifestations concerning that diagnosis, Yes,

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<v Speaker 11>there are.

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<v Speaker 5>Can you explain to the court what is psychosis?

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<v Speaker 12>So in a general sin psychosis is the main product

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<v Speaker 12>of schizophrenia's kind of the syndroom that schizophrenia produces, so

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<v Speaker 12>generally that in a nutshell is disconnection from reality and

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<v Speaker 12>one or more ways you know, they're commonly understood disconnects

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<v Speaker 12>are auditory hallucinations or visual hallucination.

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<v Speaker 11>Someone with psychosis, as you've described, says it manifests itself

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<v Speaker 11>with miss Hoggle. Can they answer questions like who's the judge?

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<v Speaker 11>What the charges are against you? In other words, what

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<v Speaker 11>we've been calling sort of the prong one question.

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<v Speaker 12>Yes, they can, As in my report, in some of

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<v Speaker 12>the examples of miss Hoggle answering those questions, she might

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<v Speaker 12>initially answer the question correctly, albeit maybe superficially. It is

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<v Speaker 12>just kind of a generalization for most of her responses

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<v Speaker 12>during my assessment, But then she would derail, as a

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<v Speaker 12>term used for it. She would move on to another

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<v Speaker 12>topic that was either loosely related or.

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<v Speaker 5>Not related at all to the prior question.

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<v Speaker 12>So, even when she answered the question appropriately, if allowed

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<v Speaker 12>to continue to remove very far our way from the response.

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<v Speaker 5>That was needed.

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<v Speaker 3>This question of derailing is key to the insistence that

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<v Speaker 3>Catherine is not competent to assist counsel. That while she might,

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<v Speaker 3>upon superficial examination appear capable and aware, that appearance masks

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<v Speaker 3>a highly disoriented core that prevents her from grappling with

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<v Speaker 3>anything beyond the most basic question. From what doctor Brown describes,

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<v Speaker 3>she just isn't capable of providing the kind of complex

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<v Speaker 3>information required to defend herself against murder charges, information like

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<v Speaker 3>alibi witnesses and exculpatory evidence. But for the prosecution, the

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<v Speaker 3>question isn't one of Catherine's capacities. It's what she's willing

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<v Speaker 3>and unwilling to do. And this is the tag Assistant

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<v Speaker 3>State's Attorney Ryan Wexler takes as she cross examines doctor Brown.

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<v Speaker 8>It's certainly possible that Miss Hoggle is making a choice

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<v Speaker 8>to derail because she doesn't want to answer questions about

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<v Speaker 8>her case.

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<v Speaker 3>That's possible, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 5>It's possible, but I don't think that's what's going on.

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<v Speaker 8>You heard mister Turner testify last week, right, and that

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<v Speaker 8>he testified that Miss Hoggle told him that she was

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<v Speaker 8>advised to stay incompetent.

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<v Speaker 7>I call that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, Troy Turner isn't the only person who has noted

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<v Speaker 3>that Catherine has expressed interest in remaining incompetent. Another psychiatrist

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<v Speaker 3>at Perkins, doctor Christian Tullibson, also examined Catherine.

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<v Speaker 8>And were you also aware that in doctor Tollisson's report

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<v Speaker 8>when doctor Tollison talked to Miss Hoggle. Miss Hoggel told

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<v Speaker 8>her she did not want to become competent. Were you

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<v Speaker 8>aware of that?

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<v Speaker 5>No, I've not read doctor Tullison's report.

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<v Speaker 8>That if miss Hoggle stays incompetent, her case will be

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<v Speaker 8>dismissed by the court.

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<v Speaker 3>Right sure, Doctor Brown was a witness for Catherine's side.

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<v Speaker 3>Doctor Tullison was called by the state.

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<v Speaker 10>You know, competency is in the moment, it's in the

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<v Speaker 10>here and now, But it's also a question of their

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<v Speaker 10>capacity to be competent. So we're looking at somebody's underlying

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<v Speaker 10>abilities to sort of rise to the occasion. You know,

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<v Speaker 10>can they you know, can they pull themselves together if

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<v Speaker 10>they have to? So I'm looking I'm looking at the

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<v Speaker 10>how you know, like, what what have they been doing

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<v Speaker 10>in the past. How does that affect their ability to,

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<v Speaker 10>you know, be able to pull themselves together at certain

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<v Speaker 10>times for their court proceedings.

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<v Speaker 6>Is there a difference between capacity and willingness to become confident?

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<v Speaker 10>In your opinions, plenty of defendants are fully capable of

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<v Speaker 10>being competent, But will you know, exhibit all sorts of

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<v Speaker 10>symptoms in order to.

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<v Speaker 5>Not be competent?

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<v Speaker 3>Doctor Tellibson was also questioned about whether doctor Brown's assessment

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<v Speaker 3>was sufficient. He spent ninety minutes with Catherine, and that

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<v Speaker 3>was seven months prior to this hearing.

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<v Speaker 6>In the course of a normal evaluation for competency, would

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<v Speaker 6>you feel comfortable announcing an opinion relative to competency if

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<v Speaker 6>you had not seen the patient for seven months.

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<v Speaker 10>I could talk about what I thought the defendant was

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<v Speaker 10>like seven months ago. But you know, sometimes it depends

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<v Speaker 10>on the defendant. Because I've certainly had patients or defendants

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<v Speaker 10>at Clifton T. Perkins who were exactly the same from

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<v Speaker 10>year to year to year, and so you know, seven months.

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<v Speaker 5>Is not going to make that much of a difference.

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<v Speaker 5>But when you have a defendant or a patient who

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<v Speaker 5>is doing.

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<v Speaker 10>Education trials, or situations changing, or things are revolving in

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<v Speaker 10>their case, then you would want to revisit them right

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<v Speaker 10>before their court appearments.

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<v Speaker 6>If there was evidence in the records that you were

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<v Speaker 6>examining that suggested that the defendant that you were evaluating

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<v Speaker 6>refused to answer questions that were asked of them because

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<v Speaker 6>they were following the advice of their counsel not to

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<v Speaker 6>answer the question.

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<v Speaker 5>Would you consider that in terms of competency.

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<v Speaker 10>I think that would be evidence of their ability to

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<v Speaker 10>work with their.

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<v Speaker 3>Attorney up to this point. After new where is hearings,

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<v Speaker 3>dozens of reports, years in a psychiatric hospital. What we

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<v Speaker 3>know about Catherine we know through others. This hearing would

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<v Speaker 3>bring something different to the table.

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<v Speaker 5>What are your name?

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<v Speaker 7>Happened Ashley Hackel?

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<v Speaker 3>This hearing would have a judge ask Catherine questions directly.

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<v Speaker 5>Thank you? How old are you? Thirty six? What's your birthday?

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<v Speaker 5>Eleven thirteen eighty six? Do you know what evidence is?

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<v Speaker 13>Yes, sir, mat don't want you tell me anything about

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<v Speaker 13>circumstances in this case, but generally, what is evidence?

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<v Speaker 7>Something that makes things, something that's used for a case,

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<v Speaker 7>good or bad.

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<v Speaker 13>When someone is charged with crime, should they talk to

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<v Speaker 13>an attorney?

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<v Speaker 5>I'm not sure.

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<v Speaker 3>When prosecutors pushed the judge to question Catherine, they submitted

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<v Speaker 3>more than a hundred questions they suggested he use to

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<v Speaker 3>assess her competency.

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<v Speaker 5>Do you know what attorneys do?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, sir?

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<v Speaker 5>Tell me what attorneys.

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<v Speaker 7>Do they prosecute or defend station? I mean a client?

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<v Speaker 5>What should an attorney know what happened at the alleged crime?

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<v Speaker 3>Catherine isn't under oath, and this isn't a criminal trial,

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<v Speaker 3>but the consequences our major. If the court upholds the

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<v Speaker 3>repeated conclusions of incompetency by the doctors at Perkins, then

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<v Speaker 3>the charges will be dismissed.

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<v Speaker 5>Is there anything else that they should know?

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<v Speaker 7>I can't think of anything right now. I'm not very

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<v Speaker 7>good at public speaking.

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<v Speaker 5>Have you ever heard of the phrase attorney client privilege? Yes, sir,

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<v Speaker 5>what do you think that means?

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<v Speaker 7>It's private conversation with you and your attorney?

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, thank you very much, man, thank you.

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<v Speaker 3>And then it was over. The interaction you just heard

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<v Speaker 3>isn't a small clip of the exchange between Catherine and

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<v Speaker 3>the judge. It's the sum of his questions for her,

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<v Speaker 3>eleven questions in total. Even More, each of his questions

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<v Speaker 3>appeared related to the first prong of competency, that she

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<v Speaker 3>understands the sys and charges and proceedings, something her lawyer

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<v Speaker 3>has already conceded. It was impossible to guess what Judge

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<v Speaker 3>Bonifront would do with this information. What he saw when

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<v Speaker 3>he looked at Catherine Hoggle slightly slumped in her seat,

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<v Speaker 3>what he heard when she answered his questions capably, Though,

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<v Speaker 3>not without some hesitance and with a certain childlike simplicity.

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<v Speaker 3>Were these the answers of a woman who couldn't see

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<v Speaker 3>through a fog of mental illness? Were they the words

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<v Speaker 3>of a woman who has been scheming, manipulating, lingering, and

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<v Speaker 3>ultimately prevailing over any number of medical professionals for the

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<v Speaker 3>last eight years. Everyone in the courtroom listened intently, but

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<v Speaker 3>maybe most of all was Troy. He was sitting just

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<v Speaker 3>feet away, closely watching every move, clocking every statement. Catherine

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<v Speaker 3>made a slow reel of eight years of surreal history

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<v Speaker 3>flashing through his mind. But all Troy could do was

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<v Speaker 3>wait for the afternoon of November thirtieth, twenty twenty two,

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<v Speaker 3>when Judge Bonavent delivered his decision.

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<v Speaker 5>All right, thank you, everyone, Please have a scene. All right, everyone.

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<v Speaker 13>The first issue before the court is whether the defendant,

0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:30.120
<v Speaker 13>Catherine Hoggele, is presently component to stand trial.

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<v Speaker 3>If the judge decides that Catherine is competent, contradicting the

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<v Speaker 3>repeated findings of several doctors at Perkins, then she will

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<v Speaker 3>be arraigned on murder charges in the deaths of Jacob

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<v Speaker 3>and Sarah, setting up a rare no body double homicide prosecution.

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<v Speaker 13>Pursuant to an indictment handed down September fourteen, twenty seventeen.

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<v Speaker 13>Defendant faces two counts of murder. The defendant is charged

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<v Speaker 13>with first two murder of her two children, Sarah and Jacob.

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<v Speaker 13>The court does not find the state has met its

0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.400
<v Speaker 13>burdened beyond a reasonable doubt in light of the fact

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<v Speaker 13>that has now been five years since the first finding

0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.840
<v Speaker 13>of dependence and competency. Count one and two of the

0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:20.719
<v Speaker 13>indictment are dismissed.

0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.520
<v Speaker 3>And with that the murder charges against Catherine Hoggele are gone.

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<v Speaker 13>The court finds the defendant meets their criteria for involuntary confinement.

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<v Speaker 13>Prestuan to Section three one O sixty one.

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<v Speaker 3>Catherine will not be released. She will be remanded to

0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:43.680
<v Speaker 3>Perkins until she's deemed no longer a threat to herself

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<v Speaker 3>or others, but she will be outside of the purview

0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:51.240
<v Speaker 3>of the criminal justice system. Now she's just another patient.

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<v Speaker 13>She has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, major depressive disorder, and

0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:01.400
<v Speaker 13>general anxiety disorder. She suffers from chronics symptoms of impaired judgment,

0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:05.919
<v Speaker 13>poor insight, paranoia, and disorganized thinking. Without the structure and

0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.919
<v Speaker 13>stability of a hospital setting, she would be a danger

0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.480
<v Speaker 13>to herself for others. Given the limited insight into illness

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<v Speaker 13>and her desire to discontinue her medications, she is unwilling

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<v Speaker 13>and unable to sign a voluntary treatment agreement. There is

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<v Speaker 13>no less restrictive environment that is consistent with her welfare

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<v Speaker 13>and safety.

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<v Speaker 3>After the judge is finished delivering his decision, he invites

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<v Speaker 3>Troy to speak to the court.

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<v Speaker 5>Mister Turnham, Yes, sir, thank you.

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:41.920
<v Speaker 3>After taking a moment to collect himself, Troy stands. He's

0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.920
<v Speaker 3>wearing a t shirt with Sarah and Jacob's pictures on it.

0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:49.320
<v Speaker 3>Sarah and Jacob are smiling sweetly at the camera, maybe

0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:50.040
<v Speaker 3>at their dad.

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<v Speaker 4>This is a travesty, and my kids are gone. She's gone,

0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:00.560
<v Speaker 4>going with her lafe. My kids don't have one. They

0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.280
<v Speaker 4>were two and three when they were taken, and everything

0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.679
<v Speaker 4>that they were ever going to be or accomplished.

0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:07.080
<v Speaker 5>Is taken from them by her.

0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:10.199
<v Speaker 4>And now I have to sit here and listen to

0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.200
<v Speaker 4>charges to get dropped, and her rights.

0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.000
<v Speaker 5>Are being talented. Where are my kids rights?

0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.200
<v Speaker 4>Where are the children advice to be safe? Where's anyone's rights?

0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.600
<v Speaker 4>And this whole system other than a criminal like her

0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:28.159
<v Speaker 4>and I'm telling you right now, I'm not disregarding that

0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:30.399
<v Speaker 4>she is mentally ill. I know that I personally have

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.080
<v Speaker 4>had her committed. But what I can tell you is

0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:34.640
<v Speaker 4>there was a lot of lies told in this court,

0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:36.680
<v Speaker 4>none of them by me, but.

0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.919
<v Speaker 5>That has all now prevailed. I do appreciate you. I

0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.639
<v Speaker 5>don't mean any disrespect to you or your sport. But

0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:48.720
<v Speaker 5>the system's broken and it's got to change. Thank you.

0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:58.919
<v Speaker 3>A little while later, the state's attorney held a press

0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:00.639
<v Speaker 3>conference in front of the courthouse.

0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:03.119
<v Speaker 4>Thank you.

0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:05.080
<v Speaker 6>My name is John McCarthy. I'm a states attorney from

0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:09.320
<v Speaker 6>Montgomery County. The charges were dismissed against her today by

0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:14.439
<v Speaker 6>Judge Bonifitt in court about five minutes ago, but there

0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.280
<v Speaker 6>still remains several important points for the community to know

0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:22.440
<v Speaker 6>about this matter. Missago will not be free in the community,

0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.400
<v Speaker 6>as we just witnessed a few minutes ago. She will

0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:31.040
<v Speaker 6>be involuntarily committed by an order assigned by this judge

0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:34.600
<v Speaker 6>because she remains a danger to herself for others.

0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:40.520
<v Speaker 9>She is committed by court order today today we have

0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:46.639
<v Speaker 9>the right to recharge. There is no double jeopardy that

0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:47.440
<v Speaker 9>applies here.

0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.720
<v Speaker 6>This is not a double jeopardy situation, the state has

0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:56.920
<v Speaker 6>the right to recharge. I will tell you, as long

0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:00.360
<v Speaker 6>as I'm state's attorney, it would be my intent, if

0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:02.960
<v Speaker 6>she is a judge, to be safe to we turned

0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:06.760
<v Speaker 6>to the community, the circumstances would be such that we

0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:10.560
<v Speaker 6>would recharge her, even if we have to revisit the

0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:16.000
<v Speaker 6>issue of competency again. My personal hope is that we

0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:20.640
<v Speaker 6>will not have justice ultimately denied but merely delayed.

0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.439
<v Speaker 3>The next day, Sarah and I jumped on a plane

0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:44.720
<v Speaker 3>and headed to Maryland. Next time Unrestorable, we dive into

0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:49.880
<v Speaker 3>the biggest remaining question what happened to Sarah and Jacob,

0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:51.720
<v Speaker 3>as far.

0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:53.520
<v Speaker 4>As where their bodies are as a mystery, as far

0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:56.360
<v Speaker 4>as what happened, who took them, who did it? There's

0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:57.280
<v Speaker 4>no mystery there.

0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:01.680
<v Speaker 5>When we first got as she had dirt under her fingernails,

0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:02.280
<v Speaker 5>like it.

0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:03.520
<v Speaker 2>Looks like she was in the bloods.

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<v Speaker 11>So there's still a part of me that thinks, hey,

0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:08.600
<v Speaker 11>they're still out there and maybe.

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<v Speaker 5>We just passed on.

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<v Speaker 3>Unrestorable is executive produced and hosted by me Beth Carris

0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:21.320
<v Speaker 3>and Sarah Trelevin. Our story editor is Kathleen Goldhar. Mixing

0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:25.720
<v Speaker 3>and sound designed by Mitchell Stewart for Anonymous content. Jessica

0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:29.879
<v Speaker 3>Grimshaw is our executive producer, Jennifer Sears is our executive

0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.320
<v Speaker 3>in charge of production, and Nick Yaniez is our legal council.

0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:38.520
<v Speaker 3>For iHeart executive producer Christina Everett and supervising producer Abu

0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:39.160
<v Speaker 3>Zapfhar