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Speaker 1: It's the latest turn in a battle by Montgomery County

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Speaker 1: Prosecutor John McCarthy to get Hoggle declared competent to stand trial,

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Speaker 1: despite doctor's opinions that she's not. Hogel has been in

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Speaker 1: a secure state psychiatric hospital since the children's disappearance in

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Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. Their bodies have never been found, and.

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Speaker 2: April doctors report at Hogle's competency is unrestorable. The state's

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Speaker 2: attorney's office has continuously challenged this conclusion.

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Speaker 3: It's November twenty twenty two, and Catherine Hoggle, charged with

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Speaker 3: two counts of murder, has been considered incompetent for nearly

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Speaker 3: five years.

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Speaker 2: The Montgomery County community has wondered what happened to three

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Speaker 2: year old Sarah and two year old Jacob. Their mother,

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Speaker 2: thirty six year old Katherine Hoggele, was the last person

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Speaker 2: seen with them. She was charged with murder after refusing,

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Speaker 2: police say to share any information about their whereabouts.

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Speaker 3: The media following the case has ebbed and flowed over

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Speaker 3: the years since the kids disappeared, but this week they

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Speaker 3: are back in full force. In three days, murder charges

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Speaker 3: will be dropped against Catherine Hoggele if she is not

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Speaker 3: found competent to stand twile this is according to state law.

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Speaker 4: Hey really down to the wire here, huh Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Three days of.

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Speaker 3: Hearings, Sarah and I are catching up with Troy Turner,

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Speaker 3: his wife Stephanie, and their friend and lawyer, Matt Alleged.

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Speaker 6: It's just really overwhelming. I don't know.

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Speaker 7: I mean, I think she's going to be out. I

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Speaker 7: just think she's going to be out, and I.

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Speaker 5: Think that's the wrong thing.

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Speaker 8: I think that society looks at her as a child murderer,

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Speaker 8: and so they're like, dude, we'll never let someone like

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Speaker 8: her out.

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Speaker 9: But that's just not the way the world works.

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Speaker 5: My read is that it doesn't look good.

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Speaker 3: Over three days, Judge James Bonifront has been hearing testimony

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Speaker 3: about whether or not Catherine could capably assist her attorney

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Speaker 3: in her own defense. As part of the state's argument,

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Speaker 3: prosecutors asked the judge to go back and watch tapes

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Speaker 3: of Catherine during this and prior hearings to pay attention

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Speaker 3: to her interactions with her attorney, David Felson, her attentiveness

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Speaker 3: and body language.

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Speaker 5: During the cross examination.

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Speaker 1: She's sitting there yelling at the attorney, pulling him over,

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Speaker 1: pointing at notes telling him things.

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Speaker 10: The last day she came in, she brought in a

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Speaker 10: piece of paper to Felson, handed to him where she

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Speaker 10: had highlighted things for him.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's where I keep going.

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Speaker 4: Well, there has to be at least some chance because

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Speaker 4: they were literally doing in front of him what they're

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Speaker 4: saying they can't do.

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Speaker 11: All right, Well, well you really await news and thank

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Speaker 11: you for your time again tonight.

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Speaker 2: Thanks thanks Bie.

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Speaker 3: I'm Beth Carris and this is Unrestorable, an original podcast

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Speaker 3: from anonymous content and iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 5: So doctor Brown, would you please raise your right hand

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Speaker 5: and listen to the courtroom clerk.

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Speaker 12: Please THEMSLF swear or firma the bounties a perjurb that

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Speaker 12: the response is giving us think it's maybe the whole

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Speaker 12: truth or nothing but the truth.

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Speaker 5: He thank you.

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Speaker 3: This is the hearing Troy has been pushing for for

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Speaker 3: more than eight years. He wants Catherine questioned by a judge,

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Speaker 3: her competency examined by a court outside of what he

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Speaker 3: sees as her protectors at Perkins. He's been trying to

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Speaker 3: convince anyone who will listen that Catherine needs to be

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Speaker 3: held accountable. This competency hearing is his last chance. If

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Speaker 3: she is yet again determined to be not competent to

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Speaker 3: stand trial, the murder charges will be dismissed in advance

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Speaker 3: of the December first deadline, and Troy's determination to have

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Speaker 3: her charged with his children's murders will be defeated. Maybe

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Speaker 3: for good.

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Speaker 5: Doctor Stationer, informing Adam Brown, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Adam Brown, a psychiatrist at Clipton T. Perkins Psychiatric Hospital,

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Speaker 3: is the doctor who most recently evaluated Catherine and concluded

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Speaker 3: she was incompetent.

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Speaker 5: When you conducted your evaluation of miss Hovell.

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Speaker 3: What diagnosis did you confirm, doctor Brown, is being questioned

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Speaker 3: by David Felson, Catherine's attorney.

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Speaker 12: I confirm the diagnosis of schizophrenia any other diagnosis. She

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Speaker 12: also has diagnoses of a major depressive disorder and generalized

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Speaker 12: anxiety disorder.

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Speaker 11: And are the psychotic related manifestations concerning that diagnosis, Yes,

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Speaker 11: there are.

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Speaker 5: Can you explain to the court what is psychosis?

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Speaker 12: So in a general sin psychosis is the main product

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Speaker 12: of schizophrenia's kind of the syndroom that schizophrenia produces, so

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Speaker 12: generally that in a nutshell is disconnection from reality and

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Speaker 12: one or more ways you know, they're commonly understood disconnects

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Speaker 12: are auditory hallucinations or visual hallucination.

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Speaker 11: Someone with psychosis, as you've described, says it manifests itself

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Speaker 11: with miss Hoggle. Can they answer questions like who's the judge?

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Speaker 11: What the charges are against you? In other words, what

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Speaker 11: we've been calling sort of the prong one question.

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Speaker 12: Yes, they can, As in my report, in some of

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Speaker 12: the examples of miss Hoggle answering those questions, she might

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Speaker 12: initially answer the question correctly, albeit maybe superficially. It is

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Speaker 12: just kind of a generalization for most of her responses

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Speaker 12: during my assessment, But then she would derail, as a

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Speaker 12: term used for it. She would move on to another

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Speaker 12: topic that was either loosely related or.

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Speaker 5: Not related at all to the prior question.

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Speaker 12: So, even when she answered the question appropriately, if allowed

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Speaker 12: to continue to remove very far our way from the response.

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Speaker 5: That was needed.

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Speaker 3: This question of derailing is key to the insistence that

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Speaker 3: Catherine is not competent to assist counsel. That while she might,

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Speaker 3: upon superficial examination appear capable and aware, that appearance masks

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Speaker 3: a highly disoriented core that prevents her from grappling with

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Speaker 3: anything beyond the most basic question. From what doctor Brown describes,

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Speaker 3: she just isn't capable of providing the kind of complex

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Speaker 3: information required to defend herself against murder charges, information like

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Speaker 3: alibi witnesses and exculpatory evidence. But for the prosecution, the

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Speaker 3: question isn't one of Catherine's capacities. It's what she's willing

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Speaker 3: and unwilling to do. And this is the tag Assistant

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Speaker 3: State's Attorney Ryan Wexler takes as she cross examines doctor Brown.

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Speaker 8: It's certainly possible that Miss Hoggle is making a choice

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Speaker 8: to derail because she doesn't want to answer questions about

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Speaker 8: her case.

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Speaker 3: That's possible, isn't it.

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Speaker 5: It's possible, but I don't think that's what's going on.

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Speaker 8: You heard mister Turner testify last week, right, and that

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Speaker 8: he testified that Miss Hoggle told him that she was

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Speaker 8: advised to stay incompetent.

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Speaker 7: I call that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Troy Turner isn't the only person who has noted

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Speaker 3: that Catherine has expressed interest in remaining incompetent. Another psychiatrist

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Speaker 3: at Perkins, doctor Christian Tullibson, also examined Catherine.

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Speaker 8: And were you also aware that in doctor Tollisson's report

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Speaker 8: when doctor Tollison talked to Miss Hoggle. Miss Hoggel told

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Speaker 8: her she did not want to become competent. Were you

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Speaker 8: aware of that?

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Speaker 5: No, I've not read doctor Tullison's report.

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Speaker 8: That if miss Hoggle stays incompetent, her case will be

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Speaker 8: dismissed by the court.

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Speaker 3: Right sure, Doctor Brown was a witness for Catherine's side.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Tullison was called by the state.

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Speaker 10: You know, competency is in the moment, it's in the

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Speaker 10: here and now, But it's also a question of their

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Speaker 10: capacity to be competent. So we're looking at somebody's underlying

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Speaker 10: abilities to sort of rise to the occasion. You know,

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Speaker 10: can they you know, can they pull themselves together if

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Speaker 10: they have to? So I'm looking I'm looking at the

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Speaker 10: how you know, like, what what have they been doing

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Speaker 10: in the past. How does that affect their ability to,

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Speaker 10: you know, be able to pull themselves together at certain

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Speaker 10: times for their court proceedings.

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Speaker 6: Is there a difference between capacity and willingness to become confident?

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Speaker 10: In your opinions, plenty of defendants are fully capable of

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Speaker 10: being competent, But will you know, exhibit all sorts of

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Speaker 10: symptoms in order to.

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Speaker 5: Not be competent?

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Speaker 3: Doctor Tellibson was also questioned about whether doctor Brown's assessment

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Speaker 3: was sufficient. He spent ninety minutes with Catherine, and that

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Speaker 3: was seven months prior to this hearing.

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Speaker 6: In the course of a normal evaluation for competency, would

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Speaker 6: you feel comfortable announcing an opinion relative to competency if

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Speaker 6: you had not seen the patient for seven months.

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Speaker 10: I could talk about what I thought the defendant was

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Speaker 10: like seven months ago. But you know, sometimes it depends

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Speaker 10: on the defendant. Because I've certainly had patients or defendants

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Speaker 10: at Clifton T. Perkins who were exactly the same from

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Speaker 10: year to year to year, and so you know, seven months.

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Speaker 5: Is not going to make that much of a difference.

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Speaker 5: But when you have a defendant or a patient who

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Speaker 5: is doing.

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Speaker 10: Education trials, or situations changing, or things are revolving in

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Speaker 10: their case, then you would want to revisit them right

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Speaker 10: before their court appearments.

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Speaker 6: If there was evidence in the records that you were

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Speaker 6: examining that suggested that the defendant that you were evaluating

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Speaker 6: refused to answer questions that were asked of them because

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Speaker 6: they were following the advice of their counsel not to

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Speaker 6: answer the question.

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Speaker 5: Would you consider that in terms of competency.

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Speaker 10: I think that would be evidence of their ability to

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Speaker 10: work with their.

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Speaker 3: Attorney up to this point. After new where is hearings,

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Speaker 3: dozens of reports, years in a psychiatric hospital. What we

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Speaker 3: know about Catherine we know through others. This hearing would

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Speaker 3: bring something different to the table.

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Speaker 5: What are your name?

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Speaker 7: Happened Ashley Hackel?

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Speaker 3: This hearing would have a judge ask Catherine questions directly.

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Speaker 5: Thank you? How old are you? Thirty six? What's your birthday?

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Speaker 5: Eleven thirteen eighty six? Do you know what evidence is?

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Speaker 13: Yes, sir, mat don't want you tell me anything about

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Speaker 13: circumstances in this case, but generally, what is evidence?

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Speaker 7: Something that makes things, something that's used for a case,

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Speaker 7: good or bad.

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Speaker 13: When someone is charged with crime, should they talk to

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Speaker 13: an attorney?

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Speaker 5: I'm not sure.

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Speaker 3: When prosecutors pushed the judge to question Catherine, they submitted

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Speaker 3: more than a hundred questions they suggested he use to

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Speaker 3: assess her competency.

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Speaker 5: Do you know what attorneys do?

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Speaker 4: Yes, sir?

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Speaker 5: Tell me what attorneys.

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Speaker 7: Do they prosecute or defend station? I mean a client?

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Speaker 5: What should an attorney know what happened at the alleged crime?

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Speaker 3: Catherine isn't under oath, and this isn't a criminal trial,

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Speaker 3: but the consequences our major. If the court upholds the

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Speaker 3: repeated conclusions of incompetency by the doctors at Perkins, then

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Speaker 3: the charges will be dismissed.

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Speaker 5: Is there anything else that they should know?

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Speaker 7: I can't think of anything right now. I'm not very

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Speaker 7: good at public speaking.

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Speaker 5: Have you ever heard of the phrase attorney client privilege? Yes, sir,

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Speaker 5: what do you think that means?

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Speaker 7: It's private conversation with you and your attorney?

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Speaker 5: Okay, thank you very much, man, thank you.

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Speaker 3: And then it was over. The interaction you just heard

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Speaker 3: isn't a small clip of the exchange between Catherine and

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Speaker 3: the judge. It's the sum of his questions for her,

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Speaker 3: eleven questions in total. Even More, each of his questions

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Speaker 3: appeared related to the first prong of competency, that she

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Speaker 3: understands the sys and charges and proceedings, something her lawyer

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Speaker 3: has already conceded. It was impossible to guess what Judge

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Speaker 3: Bonifront would do with this information. What he saw when

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Speaker 3: he looked at Catherine Hoggle slightly slumped in her seat,

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Speaker 3: what he heard when she answered his questions capably, Though,

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Speaker 3: not without some hesitance and with a certain childlike simplicity.

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Speaker 3: Were these the answers of a woman who couldn't see

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Speaker 3: through a fog of mental illness? Were they the words

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Speaker 3: of a woman who has been scheming, manipulating, lingering, and

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Speaker 3: ultimately prevailing over any number of medical professionals for the

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Speaker 3: last eight years. Everyone in the courtroom listened intently, but

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Speaker 3: maybe most of all was Troy. He was sitting just

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Speaker 3: feet away, closely watching every move, clocking every statement. Catherine

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Speaker 3: made a slow reel of eight years of surreal history

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Speaker 3: flashing through his mind. But all Troy could do was

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Speaker 3: wait for the afternoon of November thirtieth, twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 3: when Judge Bonavent delivered his decision.

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Speaker 5: All right, thank you, everyone, Please have a scene. All right, everyone.

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Speaker 13: The first issue before the court is whether the defendant,

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Speaker 13: Catherine Hoggele, is presently component to stand trial.

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Speaker 3: If the judge decides that Catherine is competent, contradicting the

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Speaker 3: repeated findings of several doctors at Perkins, then she will

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Speaker 3: be arraigned on murder charges in the deaths of Jacob

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Speaker 3: and Sarah, setting up a rare no body double homicide prosecution.

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Speaker 13: Pursuant to an indictment handed down September fourteen, twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 13: Defendant faces two counts of murder. The defendant is charged

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Speaker 13: with first two murder of her two children, Sarah and Jacob.

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Speaker 13: The court does not find the state has met its

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Speaker 13: burdened beyond a reasonable doubt in light of the fact

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Speaker 13: that has now been five years since the first finding

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Speaker 13: of dependence and competency. Count one and two of the

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Speaker 13: indictment are dismissed.

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Speaker 3: And with that the murder charges against Catherine Hoggele are gone.

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Speaker 13: The court finds the defendant meets their criteria for involuntary confinement.

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Speaker 13: Prestuan to Section three one O sixty one.

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Speaker 3: Catherine will not be released. She will be remanded to

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Speaker 3: Perkins until she's deemed no longer a threat to herself

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Speaker 3: or others, but she will be outside of the purview

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Speaker 3: of the criminal justice system. Now she's just another patient.

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Speaker 13: She has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, major depressive disorder, and

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Speaker 13: general anxiety disorder. She suffers from chronics symptoms of impaired judgment,

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Speaker 13: poor insight, paranoia, and disorganized thinking. Without the structure and

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Speaker 13: stability of a hospital setting, she would be a danger

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Speaker 13: to herself for others. Given the limited insight into illness

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Speaker 13: and her desire to discontinue her medications, she is unwilling

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Speaker 13: and unable to sign a voluntary treatment agreement. There is

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Speaker 13: no less restrictive environment that is consistent with her welfare

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Speaker 13: and safety.

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Speaker 3: After the judge is finished delivering his decision, he invites

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Speaker 3: Troy to speak to the court.

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Speaker 5: Mister Turnham, Yes, sir, thank you.

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Speaker 3: After taking a moment to collect himself, Troy stands. He's

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Speaker 3: wearing a t shirt with Sarah and Jacob's pictures on it.

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Speaker 3: Sarah and Jacob are smiling sweetly at the camera, maybe

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Speaker 3: at their dad.

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Speaker 4: This is a travesty, and my kids are gone. She's gone,

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Speaker 4: going with her lafe. My kids don't have one. They

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Speaker 4: were two and three when they were taken, and everything

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Speaker 4: that they were ever going to be or accomplished.

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Speaker 5: Is taken from them by her.

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Speaker 4: And now I have to sit here and listen to

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Speaker 4: charges to get dropped, and her rights.

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Speaker 5: Are being talented. Where are my kids rights?

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Speaker 4: Where are the children advice to be safe? Where's anyone's rights?

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Speaker 4: And this whole system other than a criminal like her

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Speaker 4: and I'm telling you right now, I'm not disregarding that

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Speaker 4: she is mentally ill. I know that I personally have

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Speaker 4: had her committed. But what I can tell you is

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Speaker 4: there was a lot of lies told in this court,

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Speaker 4: none of them by me, but.

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Speaker 5: That has all now prevailed. I do appreciate you. I

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Speaker 5: don't mean any disrespect to you or your sport. But

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Speaker 5: the system's broken and it's got to change. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: A little while later, the state's attorney held a press

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Speaker 3: conference in front of the courthouse.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 6: My name is John McCarthy. I'm a states attorney from

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Speaker 6: Montgomery County. The charges were dismissed against her today by

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Speaker 6: Judge Bonifitt in court about five minutes ago, but there

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Speaker 6: still remains several important points for the community to know

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Speaker 6: about this matter. Missago will not be free in the community,

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Speaker 6: as we just witnessed a few minutes ago. She will

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Speaker 6: be involuntarily committed by an order assigned by this judge

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Speaker 6: because she remains a danger to herself for others.

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Speaker 9: She is committed by court order today today we have

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Speaker 9: the right to recharge. There is no double jeopardy that

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Speaker 9: applies here.

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Speaker 6: This is not a double jeopardy situation, the state has

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Speaker 6: the right to recharge. I will tell you, as long

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Speaker 6: as I'm state's attorney, it would be my intent, if

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Speaker 6: she is a judge, to be safe to we turned

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Speaker 6: to the community, the circumstances would be such that we

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Speaker 6: would recharge her, even if we have to revisit the

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Speaker 6: issue of competency again. My personal hope is that we

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Speaker 6: will not have justice ultimately denied but merely delayed.

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Speaker 3: The next day, Sarah and I jumped on a plane

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Speaker 3: and headed to Maryland. Next time Unrestorable, we dive into

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Speaker 3: the biggest remaining question what happened to Sarah and Jacob,

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Speaker 3: as far.

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Speaker 4: As where their bodies are as a mystery, as far

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Speaker 4: as what happened, who took them, who did it? There's

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Speaker 4: no mystery there.

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Speaker 5: When we first got as she had dirt under her fingernails,

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Speaker 5: like it.

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Speaker 2: Looks like she was in the bloods.

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Speaker 11: So there's still a part of me that thinks, hey,

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Speaker 11: they're still out there and maybe.

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Speaker 5: We just passed on.

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Speaker 3: Unrestorable is executive produced and hosted by me Beth Carris

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Speaker 3: and Sarah Trelevin. Our story editor is Kathleen Goldhar. Mixing

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Speaker 3: and sound designed by Mitchell Stewart for Anonymous content. Jessica

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Speaker 3: Grimshaw is our executive producer, Jennifer Sears is our executive

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Speaker 3: in charge of production, and Nick Yaniez is our legal council.

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Speaker 3: For iHeart executive producer Christina Everett and supervising producer Abu

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Speaker 3: Zapfhar