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Speaker 1: All media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 1: Everyone, it's me James, and I'm coming at you today

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Speaker 1: with one of these little requests that I make sometimes

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Speaker 1: when there's something that we would like you to do,

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Speaker 1: when it's very important to do. So today I want

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about Syria and specifically Northeast Syria.

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Speaker 1: So with the world's eyes fixed on Syria, many are

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Speaker 1: rightly celebrating as a brutal dictatorship of Bashara Lasad comes

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Speaker 1: to an end. But for Kurdish and other minority communities,

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Speaker 1: recent days have bought violent attacks, ethnic cleansing and occupation

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Speaker 1: by Turkey's back Jahadis groups in an attempt to take

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Speaker 1: advantage of the chaos by crushing the Rajava Revolution. Turkey

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Speaker 1: and it's most openly committing war crimes against the regions

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Speaker 1: autonomous communities. Many thousands have already been forced to be

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Speaker 1: displaced and thousands more are in danger. To make matters

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Speaker 1: worth this remains largely absent from the mainstream media reporting

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Speaker 1: on Syria. If you'd like to share your solidarity with

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Speaker 1: the people of northern and Eastern Syria, please call on

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Speaker 1: Congress to take urgent action by passing the emergency legislation

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Speaker 1: to stop the violence, hold Turkey accountable, and commit US

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Speaker 1: sport to the Syrian Democratic forces and the diverse communities

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Speaker 1: under their protection. If you want to take action today,

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Speaker 1: you can go to defend Rajaba dot org. That's d

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Speaker 1: E F E N d R oja va dot org.

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Speaker 1: If you are able to the most effective action we

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Speaker 1: can take right now is to call a couple of representatives,

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Speaker 1: one representative and one Senator.

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Speaker 4: A representative would be Gregory Meeks. He's from New York.

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Speaker 1: He's a Democrat. He is a ranking member of the

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Speaker 1: House Foreign Affairs Committee. His phone number is two zero

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Speaker 1: two two two five three four six one Leevlon Bee.

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Speaker 1: Senator James rish He's an Idaho Republican. He is a

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Speaker 1: ranking member's Senate Foreign Relations committee. His phone number would

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Speaker 1: be two zero two two two four two seven five two.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like to have some talking points, you can

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Speaker 1: find those on Defendbrajaba dot org. If you'd like to

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Speaker 1: donate financially instead, especially to this humanitarian aid effort for

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Speaker 1: the tens of thousands of people who have been displaced

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Speaker 1: by the SNA's advances, you can donate to two organizations

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Speaker 1: that I would suggest to. First would be Heavier Sre

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Speaker 1: the Curtis Red Crescent. That's h E YVA s O

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Speaker 1: R dot com and you want to go slash e

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Speaker 1: n If you want to see their website in English,

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Speaker 1: you can donate there. The other one will be the

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Speaker 1: Free Burma Rangers who are currently working in Raka. I

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Speaker 1: was talking to my friend Habat who works with them.

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Speaker 1: You can donate to them at www dot free Free

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Speaker 1: Burma b U r m A Rangers dot com. We

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Speaker 1: will put all of this in the show notes, although

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Speaker 1: if you're driving you have to write them down. Those

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Speaker 1: are the concrete ways that we can help right now

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Speaker 1: and what is unfolding as a very terrible situation in

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Speaker 1: No Syria. Thanks, I hope you do an episode.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to it. Could happen to hear a podcast

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Speaker 2: about Garrison Davis talking to me. Also, the world falling apart?

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Speaker 2: How do you feel about that? Gear? How you doing?

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty used to it by now, honestly. Yeah, we've

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Speaker 3: been doing this whole thing for quite a quite a while.

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Speaker 2: You sure have.

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Speaker 3: Have you noticed that some of these some of these

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Speaker 3: cabinet picks are a little funny, They're a little bit odd.

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Speaker 4: Have you noticed that yet? I don't know. I get

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Speaker 4: kind of a funny feeling about some of these guys.

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Speaker 2: You've heard about this? Are you hearing about this? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I don't love it either, Gear. They don't seem cool

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Speaker 2: and good.

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Speaker 3: I mean, not all of them are like sticking around.

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Speaker 3: I guess you know. Matt Gatz is now out of

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Speaker 3: the job. Tragic, kind of like Icarus. He flew he

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Speaker 3: flew too close to an elementary sc.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've already got our scare Mucci. I was gonna

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Speaker 2: make a Scaremuccie joke, but your joke was much better.

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Speaker 3: It was a really fast turnaround for Gates too. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and now we're all watching Pete to see if he

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Speaker 3: if cures the top job at the Pentagon. But today

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Speaker 3: we're talking about this other guy named Cash Patel. How

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Speaker 3: do you feel about Cash Ptel, Robert.

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Speaker 2: Uh, not thrilled, kind of worry, not thrilled. Matt Gates

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Speaker 2: really seemed like the kind of guy you used to

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Speaker 2: make your sketchy Secret police and Cash Pattel as I

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Speaker 2: guess your backup to that guy.

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Speaker 3: Totally, yeah, or at least, like I don't know. Cash

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Speaker 3: is different in a few ways, Like he does a

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Speaker 3: lot more kind of dirty work because he's not like

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Speaker 3: important as a person. He just wants to be seen

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Speaker 3: by Daddy Trump. And this episode, we're gonna get into

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Speaker 3: a little bit of Cash's backstory, what his plans are

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Speaker 3: for the FBI as he is now nominated for the

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Speaker 3: position of being director of the FBI, as well as

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Speaker 3: kind of what Cash been up to in the four

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Speaker 3: years since Trump's been out of office. So let's just

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Speaker 3: start all the way back to the beginning for background

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Speaker 3: on mister Patel here. Okay, So, Cash Pattel was born

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Speaker 3: in New York, but after graduating law school in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and five, he worked as a public defender in

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Speaker 3: Florida for nine years before becoming a federal prosecutor in

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Speaker 3: the National Security Division of the DOJ. He didn't really

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Speaker 3: want to be a public defender. It's that he really

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Speaker 3: couldn't get any other jobs because he wasn't like that's skilled.

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Speaker 3: So he ended up just working as a public defender,

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Speaker 3: even though it wasn't really what he wanted to do

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Speaker 3: out of law. But once he got to the DOJ,

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Speaker 3: he worked as a terrorism prosecutor. According to a DoD profile,

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Speaker 3: Patel quote led investigations spanning multiple theaters of conflict and

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Speaker 3: oversaw the successful prosecution of criminals aligned with al Qaeda, ISIS,

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Speaker 3: and other terroot groups unquote. Patel also worked with quote

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Speaker 3: counter terrorism units to conduct collaborative global targeting operations against

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Speaker 3: high value terrorism targets unquote.

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Speaker 2: Right, Okay, I'm sure he was good at that job.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure he didn't have any really embarrassing failures during

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Speaker 2: that period of time.

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Speaker 3: No, No, I say that just for kind of his

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Speaker 3: like more like surveillance background. But we will certainly get

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Speaker 3: to his ability to complete these jobs on a reliable

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Speaker 3: basis and like. Although that info is directly from the

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Speaker 3: DoD's website, Patel himself has exaggerated his career record, claiming

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Speaker 3: in a YouTube podcast to have been the quote unquote

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Speaker 3: lead prosecutor in the case against the twenty twelve Benghazi attackers.

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Speaker 3: Patel actually was not even part of the trial team,

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Speaker 3: was only a junior staff member at the DOJ at

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Speaker 3: the time, and he was removed from this case for

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Speaker 3: clashing with the US Attorney's office. But this incident kind

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Speaker 3: of marks the start of a few unfortunate events in

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Speaker 3: his career that really started to kind of turn Patel

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Speaker 3: against the justice system. To the New York Times, in

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Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, Patel was thrown out of a courtroom for

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Speaker 3: wearing quote rumpled khakis, boat shoes and a too small

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Speaker 3: borrowed jacket unquote.

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Speaker 2: I hate that he's got on my cousin Vinnie in

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Speaker 2: his record, because that movie is great and it gets

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Speaker 2: me on his side in a way I definitely shouldn't be.

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Speaker 2: Did he Did he come in next wearing like a

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Speaker 2: funeral director's tuxedo or a fucking band leader's tuxedo or whatever.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how to describe the tuxedo Vinie Weares

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Speaker 2: in the scene after that, anyway.

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Speaker 3: No, he was just kicked out of the courtroom, with

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Speaker 3: the judge saying, quote if you want to be a

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Speaker 3: lawyer dressed like a lawyer unquote. Now this judge was

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Speaker 3: also like a racist asshole. Not defending the judge here.

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Speaker 2: And to be clear, Cash Bettel was not dating Marisitome.

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Speaker 4: He could never pull Marsitome.

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Speaker 2: He could never pull I mean, honestly jokes, who can

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Speaker 2: That's yeah.

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Speaker 3: But this incident is an important part of his career trajectory.

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Speaker 3: A profile in The Atlantic details Patel as growing increasingly

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Speaker 3: frustrated and disillusioned by his failure to navigate and rise

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Speaker 3: up in the justice system, just collecting more and more

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Speaker 3: personal grievances that fuel an animosity towards the bureaucracy of

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Speaker 3: the legal system, based on people's apparent unwillingness to help

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Speaker 3: him excel in his own career. But in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 3: Patel got his really first like big break, with Republican

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Speaker 3: Representative Devin and Nunez hiring Patel to be the House

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Speaker 3: Intelligence Committee's lead investigator to disrupt the Special Council investigation

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Speaker 3: into Russian interference in the twenty sixteen election. Trump was

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Speaker 3: impressed enough with Patel's work under Nunez that he gave

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Speaker 3: Patel a job on the National Security Council and later

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Speaker 3: served as chief of staff to Acting Secretary of Defense

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Speaker 3: Christopher Miller. Trump mused about having Patel as deputy director

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Speaker 3: of the FBI or director of the CIA in late

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty after the election, but this led to harsh

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Speaker 3: resistance from within his own administration, with ag Bill Barr

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Speaker 3: saying that Patel would only become FBI director quote over

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Speaker 3: my dead body, unquote. So I don't know if we'll have

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Speaker 3: any updates on that, yeah say. But instead, back in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty, Trump just put Patel on the Pentagon transition team.

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Speaker 3: Trump basically tasked Patel was doing dirty work and awarded

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Speaker 3: him with promotions for following orders. Patel advised on the

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Speaker 3: Ukraine impeachment, spread conspiracy theories that Ukraine, not Russia, meddled

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Speaker 3: in the twenty sixteen election, created a list of intelligence

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Speaker 3: agency officials to fire in February of twenty twenty, and

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Speaker 3: helped manage the now dismissed a classified documents case against Trump.

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Speaker 3: The former deputy national advisor to Trump, Charles Kupperman, said

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Speaker 3: in an interview quote Trump wanted to make Cash a

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Speaker 3: political executioner to root out and fire individuals on the

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Speaker 3: White House staff who weren't being as loyal as he

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Speaker 3: thought they should be unquote. So that's kind of a

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Speaker 3: good look at him as a person, and like what

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Speaker 3: Cash's rule is like specifically for Trump and with the

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Speaker 3: possibility of the justice system becoming just more and more

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Speaker 3: of like a tool to target Trump's political rivals, Cash

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Speaker 3: is the exact guy that you would pick, especially for

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Speaker 3: a job that has like an investigative focus like the FBI.

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Speaker 3: But Cash isn't always good at his job necessarily.

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Speaker 2: Well, who amongst us?

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Speaker 3: We're gonna talk about one specific incident here that's one

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Speaker 3: of like the wildest stories in like national security that

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Speaker 3: I've ever read. In October of twenty twenty four, days

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Speaker 3: before the election, the Pentagon was planning an operation for

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Speaker 3: Sale Team six to rescue an American citizen, Philip Walton,

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Speaker 3: who was kidnapped in Niger and being held in Nigeria.

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Speaker 3: As the State Department was working to communicate with officials

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Speaker 3: in Nigeria to clear airspace for the operation, Patel, who

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Speaker 3: was not part of this operation, just called the Pentagon

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Speaker 3: saying that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo had gotten approval

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Speaker 3: from Nigeria and the airspace was deconflicted, so as the

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Speaker 3: Seals were about to land in Nigeria, defense officials couldn't

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Speaker 3: verify that the flight actually had clearance, leaving the aircraft

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Speaker 3: to circle over the target for hours as they scrambled

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Speaker 3: to get approval from Nigeria. According to former Defense Secretary

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Speaker 3: Mark Esper, Patel was never in communication with Mike Pompeo

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Speaker 3: about this mission, and Defense officials concluded that Patel quote

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Speaker 3: made the approval story up. Unquote. Cool guy, this is wild.

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Speaker 3: You almost caught Sealed Team six like shot out of

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Speaker 3: the air because you made up a story about having

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Speaker 3: flight clearance.

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Speaker 4: It's like, it's crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is exactly the guy you want

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Speaker 2: running the FBI, for sure.

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Speaker 3: A Pentagon official yelled at Cash, quote, you could have

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Speaker 3: gotten those guys killed. What the fuck were you thinking,

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Speaker 3: to which Cash replied, if no, but it got hurt.

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Speaker 3: Who the fuck cares?

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Speaker 2: Amazing stuff, amazing stuff.

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Speaker 4: Let him cook crazy stuff.

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Speaker 2: Look, here's the thing, Garrison, if it had gone the

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Speaker 2: worst possible way it could have gone, we'd have been

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Speaker 2: saved at least four interminable books and at least three podcasts.

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Speaker 3: So like people like interviewed in the Atlantic, and I

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Speaker 3: think the author of the profile on Cash kind of

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Speaker 3: muses that, like maybe Cash just wanted this operation done

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Speaker 3: before the election to give Trump like an extra win

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Speaker 3: leading up to the polls. I don't know, it's it's

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Speaker 3: it's certainly odd, but like Cash has a very like

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Speaker 3: inflated sense of like personal worth. In an interview with

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Speaker 3: Glenn Beck, he talked about how like people should should

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Speaker 3: trust his expertise because quote, I've read the entire JFK file.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, geez you and Oliver Stone.

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Speaker 3: Right, he makes comments like that, It's like no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: like trust me. I know everything, Like I've read all

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Speaker 3: the classified stuff that you're not allowed to. I'm like

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Speaker 3: the smartest guy in the room. I've read everything, right,

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Speaker 3: Like he's he uses this as like a as a

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Speaker 3: way to like inflate his own personal worth and like

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Speaker 3: flex to weird right wing online podcast.

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Speaker 2: S grifters people have made this point. But it's guys

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Speaker 2: like this that have convinced me that there's no at

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Speaker 2: least no like perfectly known to intelligence smoking gun about

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Speaker 2: the Kennedy assassination. That shit would have leaked so quickly no,

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Speaker 2: if not before Trump was in office, then certainly about

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Speaker 2: the time he was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because you have guys like Cash Battel reading these files.

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Speaker 4: There's nothing in there.

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Speaker 2: There's no or at least if there is, it's the

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Speaker 2: kind of thing there may be a smoking gun that

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Speaker 2: someone who is deeply knowledgeable at the time period be like, oh,

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Speaker 2: the fact that this guy was here at this time

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Speaker 2: really means that this other thing happened, and like, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the Cash Hotel doesn't know shit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he is not smart enough to put any pieces

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Speaker 3: together or maybe there's even still redacted and the versions

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Speaker 3: that he's reading don't really have any like pertinent info.

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Speaker 2: Right. People are just like, let's not give this guy

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Speaker 2: the real one.

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Speaker 3: No, No, this guy likelying about prosecuting the Bengazi attackers

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Speaker 3: and almost got Seal Team six killed.

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Speaker 2: Now, oh man, and of all this, out of all

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Speaker 2: the Seal teams to get killed too, that's the one

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Speaker 2: that would be the biggest news day.

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Speaker 3: Do you know who would never kill Seal Team six?

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Speaker 2: Robert I'm never gonna say never about killing Seal Team six.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, hopefully allegedly these products and services would

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Speaker 3: never wish harm upon Seal Team six.

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Speaker 4: All right, we are back.

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Speaker 3: I'd like to talk a little bit now about Patel's

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Speaker 3: actual plans for the FBI. Now, this job doesn't require

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Speaker 3: a Senate confirmation, so we will see, you know, if

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Speaker 3: he gets past that process or if he's gonna get

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Speaker 3: pushed in through recess appointments, which we still don't really

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Speaker 3: know if Trump will be able to pull off. But

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Speaker 3: in terms of the FBI, we do have some idea

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Speaker 3: about what cas has in mind, because he spent the

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Speaker 3: past two years just talking about it a NonStop in

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Speaker 3: books and interviews.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because he, like all these guys, cannot shut.

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Speaker 4: Up, can't stop talking.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: In an appearance on The Sean Ryan Show in this

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Speaker 3: past September, Patel said, quote, I'd shut down the FBI

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Speaker 3: Hoover building on day one and reopen it the next

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Speaker 3: day as a museum of the deep state. Unquote Okay, okay, cool.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I do feel like you're underestimating the expensive office

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Speaker 2: space and overestimating the availability of it, but sure, why not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think they can make a whole museum

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Speaker 3: turn around in one day.

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Speaker 2: But I also think you are really really underappreciating docents.

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Speaker 2: It is not easy to get a docent up to speed, like,

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Speaker 2: for example, it's a much harder job than you currently have.

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Speaker 3: No, like Patel does talk about like trying to like

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Speaker 3: clear out like the bureaucracy and red tape of the FBI.

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Speaker 3: And though he has criticized the wide footprint of the

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Speaker 3: FBI and its surveillance operations though really only the ones

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Speaker 3: targeted against Trump and his campaign, Cash's ideal FBI would

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Speaker 3: not in fact have like a more limited presence out

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Speaker 3: in the world, saying that after closing the Hoover Building, quote,

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Speaker 3: then I'd take the seven thousand employees that work in

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Speaker 3: that building and send them across America to chase down criminals.

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Speaker 3: Go be cops, your cops, go be cops unquote. So

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Speaker 3: this is what you give like a seven year old

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Speaker 3: the keys to the FBI, And this is this is

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Speaker 3: this is the kind of stuff he's talking about. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's like I'm going to send all these administrative employees

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Speaker 3: out into the world to chase down criminals.

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Speaker 2: Now you say that, Garrison, I absolutely would put a

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Speaker 2: seven year old in charge of the FBI. You know why.

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Speaker 2: That's a blockbuster movie. Now, to be fair, that's a

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven blockbuster. But yeah, yeah, it's like that

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Speaker 2: could thirty years ago. Can you imagine the cat cat

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Speaker 2: young Mara Wilson running the FBI, fucking FBI. Yeah, perfect.

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Speaker 3: You know, if we said it a little bit further,

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Speaker 3: we could have like will we as like the villain,

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Speaker 3: you know, like the.

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Speaker 2: Evil kid heading the CIA. They also put it, but

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Speaker 2: they put Will Wheaton in charge of the CIA.

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Speaker 4: Yes, damn all right.

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Speaker 2: You know what, Garrison, this podcast is done. You and

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Speaker 2: I are writing a screenplay tonight.

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Speaker 3: With the power of AI, I can just generate this

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Speaker 3: whole movie instantly.

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Speaker 2: Perfect, with a truly ghoulish guest appearance by Robin Williams.

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Speaker 2: Just the worst taste imaginable.

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Speaker 3: No, sorry, President Williams. God, oh dear, nightmare nightmare fuel.

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Speaker 3: Now it's it's really unclear if if like Cash's plans

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Speaker 3: here are like rhetoric, right, like you know, more vibes

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Speaker 3: than like actual plan, you know, like expressing some kind

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Speaker 3: of sentiment rather than like an actual practical like plan.

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Speaker 3: But last year, Patel published a book titled Government Gangsters,

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Speaker 3: the Deep State, The Truth and the Battle for Our Democracy,

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Speaker 3: where he also proposed relocating the FBI headquarters out of Washington,

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Speaker 3: d C. To quote prevent institutional capture and curb FBI

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Speaker 3: leadership from engaging in political gamesmanship unquote, though the bulk

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Speaker 3: of this book also details like why we must root

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Speaker 3: out politicians, journalists, big tech, and quote unquote members of

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Speaker 3: the unelected bureaucracy that operate the deep state, so you know,

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Speaker 3: like the FBI engaging in a little bit of political

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Speaker 3: gamesmanship is okay. In the appendix of this book, it

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Speaker 3: contains the names of sixty alleged members of the deep state,

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Speaker 3: most of them either like former Trump cabinet people who

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Speaker 3: like turned on Trump or just like current Biden adamin people.

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Speaker 3: It's all pretty silly, but it's not like he actually

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Speaker 3: plans to take out political prosecutions away from like the

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Speaker 3: FBI's operational structure. Like, come on, buddy, this is like

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Speaker 3: your entire plan. In an interview with Steve Bannon last year,

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Speaker 3: Patel reiterated the goal of targeted prosecutions against political enemies, saying, quote,

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Speaker 3: we will go out and the conspirators, not just in

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Speaker 3: the government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to

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Speaker 3: come after people in the media who lied about American citizens,

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Speaker 3: who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to

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Speaker 3: come after you unquote.

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Speaker 4: So that's cool.

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Speaker 3: Again, It's this is this is the basic stuff that

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Speaker 3: Trump's been promising since like you know, the past four years,

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Speaker 3: going after journalists, going after politicians.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: This quote specifically also just like reminded me that like

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Speaker 3: there's like a real possibility that like the head of

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Speaker 3: the FBI legitimately thinks the twenty twenty election was stolen.

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Speaker 3: And like then I got to thinking, like how many

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Speaker 3: of like the people operating the highest levels of government

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Speaker 3: now genuinely believe the election was stolen in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 3: which is like kind of kind of threw me for

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Speaker 3: a loop. I like didn't really like process that like

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Speaker 3: concept of like how just broken the reality structure will

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Speaker 3: be with something like so like clear, yep, that's his

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Speaker 3: FBI plans.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great, Well, seems like it's gonna end well for everybody.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, what do you think you think he's

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Speaker 2: gonna get confirmed? Because he's one I'm saying. People are

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Speaker 2: focusing now that Gates is out, people are focusing way

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Speaker 2: more on heg Seth, which is probably the priority because

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Speaker 2: my god, that man should not be leading the Department

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Speaker 2: of Defense.

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Speaker 4: Because he's going to start a war.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's going to He's going to drunkenly and accidentally

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Speaker 2: start a war. I'm not even worried about him like

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Speaker 2: launching a conflict with China, right, Like we're going to

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Speaker 2: wind up fighting an insurgency against the Portuguese because he

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Speaker 2: gets fucking hammered and mixes up a couple of letters.

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Speaker 3: Like I mean, I'm also like really concerned about Tulci Gabbard.

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Speaker 2: Gabbard is top of my list because she is has

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Speaker 2: just never met a dictator she doesn't like, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's a scary person having that job.

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Speaker 3: Patello's really bad and we're going to get into some

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Speaker 3: more of his like kind of crank beliefs, but there

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Speaker 3: is a level of basic competence. The fact that Tulci

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Speaker 3: has been able to get into this position despite very

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Speaker 3: very clearly having like deep sympathetic ties to Assad in

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Speaker 3: Russia is like, yeah, super right.

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Speaker 1: Name.

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Speaker 2: She's evil but smart and incredibly power hungry. That's all

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Speaker 2: that matters to her is getting into power. And she

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Speaker 2: has things that she believes, and what we know of

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Speaker 2: the things that she believes is chilling, like, yeah, but

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Speaker 2: that's yeah, and we don't we we're talking about someone

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Speaker 2: besides Tulci today.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yes.

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Speaker 3: Now, since twenty twenty, Cash Patel has served on the

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Speaker 3: board of directors for the parent company of Truth Social

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Speaker 3: called Trump Media Technology Group, so he's been part of

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00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 3: the team operating you know, Trump's version of Twitter, and

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Speaker 3: back in twenty twenty two, Patel was openly talking about how,

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Speaker 3: like the truth Social staff, we're trying to quote unquote

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Speaker 3: incorporate to QAnon into our overall messaging scheme to capture audiences.

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Speaker 3: So this is this, this is the section where we're

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Speaker 3: going to really get into Patel's super super heavy q ties,

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Speaker 3: which is kind of like a throwback.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: We don't really talk about QAnon as much anymore, And

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Speaker 3: I don't think Patel's interest in this is genuine. I

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Speaker 3: think it is just to like, no, grow both his

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00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 3: own brand and help boost the stock of truth Social.

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Speaker 3: It's still like the closest that anyone in Trump's team

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Speaker 3: has gotten to like openly endorsing q and on and

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Speaker 3: like repeatedly True Social staff operate an account at q

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Speaker 3: forms to piggyback off of q Andon's popularity. And draw

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Speaker 3: in popular Q and on influencers. In February twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 3: Patel posted a photo of a beer pint and the

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Speaker 3: arm of someone wearing a flannel shirt, with text saying

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Speaker 3: he was quote having a beer with Q right now unquote.

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Speaker 3: Ptel continued to frequently interact with the Q account, make

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Speaker 3: Q and on related posts, and do reoccurring appearances on

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Speaker 3: Q and on linked podcasts, most notably the X twenty

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Speaker 3: two Report, The Matrix Xxx Grove Show, and Red Pill

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Speaker 3: seventy eight. It's been a while since I've listened to

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Speaker 3: these types of shows, and it was it was like

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Speaker 3: a huge throwback, ah man, and they're like all chugging

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00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 3: along and now they're like chugging along better than ever,

436
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,400
Speaker 3: which is, you know, not ideal for me on these shows.

437
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 3: Cash has praised the Q and on fandom researchers, saying

438
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 3: both he and the President have been impressed. It's all

439
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 3: like very pandering, but it really works for these people

440
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 3: I've seen.

441
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 6: On social media, on Trump, on truth social How could

442
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 6: these researchers are? And I kind of wish I had

443
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 6: some of them when I was doing Russia again, some

444
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 6: of these other things you know, Devin and I talk regularly,

445
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,199
Speaker 6: and then you know, I talk with the President all

446
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 6: the time as well, and we're just blown away at

447
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 6: the amount of acumen some of these people have and

448
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 6: how quick they are to grab it and suss through

449
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 6: it and sort of thin it down and make it presentable.

450
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 3: Later in that interview, Patel openly said that he publishes

451
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 3: government documents on his website, Fight with Cash dot Com,

452
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 3: specifically so that QAnon researchers will dig through them to

453
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 3: make QAnon content. He openly said that's like why he'd

454
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 3: like posts these documents.

455
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: You see again, I'm sympathetic. Everything I do is for content, Garrison.

456
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 2: That's that's just the way the world works now. Now

457
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 2: the content must flow.

458
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 1: You know.

459
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 3: Patel also has books just like you. Although he's been

460
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 3: signing copies of his with the q andon phrase where

461
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 3: we go one, do we go All?

462
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I do that too, and he.

463
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 3: Has defended his use of the slogan on these QAnon podcasts,

464
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 3: like in this clip from the Matrix xx Groove show

465
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 3: where we go on.

466
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 6: Where we Go All is, as you said, from a

467
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 6: great movie that I watched a long time ago, and

468
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 6: people took to it and so what you know, it

469
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 6: doesn't mean everyone's a conspiracy theorist. And people keep asking

470
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 6: me about all this cue stuff.

471
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: I'm like, what does it matter.

472
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 6: What I'm telling you is that there is truth in

473
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 6: a lot of things that many people say, and what

474
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 6: I'm putting out there is the truth. And how about

475
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 6: we have some fun along the way.

476
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 4: There's so many.

477
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 6: People who subscribed to the where we go on, we

478
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 6: go on all mantra, and it's what's wrong with it?

479
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 3: I'm going to quote now from an article in Media

480
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 3: Matters by Alex Kaplan, who's been reporting on Patel and

481
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 3: his ties to QAnon since twenty twenty two.

482
00:24:59,280 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 4: Quote.

483
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 3: On yet another show in June twenty twenty two, Patel

484
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 3: went even further, saying of q and on quote, we

485
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 3: try to incorporate it into our overall messaging scheme to

486
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 3: capture audiences because whoever that person is has certainly captured

487
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 3: a widespread breadth of the Mega and America First movement.

488
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 3: And so what I try to do, is what I

489
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 3: try to do with anything q or otherwise, is you

490
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 3: can't ignore that group of people that has such a

491
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 3: strong dominant following unquote in the interview, Petel also said

492
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 3: of Q and on there's a lot of good to

493
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 3: a lot of it, and he agreed with the co

494
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 3: host who said Q has been so right on so

495
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 3: many things, saying, quote, I agree with you. He shall

496
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 3: get credit for all the things he has accomplished because

497
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 3: it's hard to establish a movement. Let's call it that,

498
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 3: because that's what it is.

499
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 4: Unquote. Oh boy, do you know what's also hard to establish?

500
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: Robert uh an alibi.

501
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 3: An alibi, and you know some people's alibis could be

502
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 3: reading ads like the one that we're about to do

503
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 3: right now.

504
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 2: That's right, that's always my alibi.

505
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 3: That really is always your fun Yeah.

506
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 4: All right, we are back now.

507
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,479
Speaker 3: In these podcast guest appearances, he would often plug his

508
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 3: book and advocate that listeners just join truth social and

509
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 3: engagement with these more niche online streaming shows and podcasts

510
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 3: fortifies the right wing online media ecosystem and draws people

511
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 3: away from mainstream news like this is why he was

512
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 3: going on those shows so much back in twenty twenty two,

513
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 3: and Patel basically says as much on this episode of

514
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 3: the X twenty two Report.

515
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 6: They will never trust the fake news media again and

516
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 6: for us that's always been the championing cause to get

517
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 6: our people and mainstream America listening to your show rather

518
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 6: than CNN and reading the New York Post or excuse me,

519
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 6: the New York Times and the Washington Post.

520
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 3: And I think part of why he's doing this, and

521
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 3: whether he was told to do it or whether he

522
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 3: just did it on his own volition, is that like

523
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 3: having someone who's seen as being close to Trump, especially

524
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 3: with national secured experience, it helps keep Trump supporters politically

525
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 3: engaged by making them feel like they are getting special

526
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 3: access to like exclusive information. It's all a part of

527
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 3: keeping the mega movement alive when their site is not

528
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 3: in power, while also building up a ground base of

529
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 3: support in preparation for them to take power back. And

530
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 3: that's what he did like a lot in twenty twenty two.

531
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 3: Most of those podcasts were leading up to the midterms

532
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 3: as well, so it is part of this general political

533
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 3: strategy to engage with these like much more niche kind

534
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 3: of smaller QAnon shows, which not only does like you know,

535
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 3: grow their audience over time as well, it does help

536
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 3: their audience grow, it also just establishes like a completely

537
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 3: siloed media ecosystem away from mainstream news like that. That

538
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 3: is part of what they're doing, right. That's why Trump

539
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 3: made truth Social is to create more of these reality tunnels,

540
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 3: more of these like information silos. Now, Patel kept busy

541
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: in between twenty twenty and twenty twenty four with a

542
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 3: variety of kind of griff ventures. I'm going to quote

543
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 3: from the New York Times here.

544
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 4: Quote.

545
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 3: Mister Patel's company, Trishel, collects consulting fees, including one hundred

546
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 3: and thirty thousand dollars last year from mister Trump's Truth

547
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 3: Social site. He also made three hundred and twenty five

548
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 3: thousand dollars over two years for strategy consulting for the

549
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 3: pro Trump Save America pack and one hundred and forty

550
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 3: five and twenty twenty one for fundraising consulting from friends

551
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: of Matt Gates, the campaign committee for the now former

552
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 3: House Republican from Florida.

553
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 4: Unquote now.

554
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 3: Last year, Patel's nonprofit charity, the Cash Foundation, received one

555
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: point three million dollars in revenue, mostly from donations, though

556
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 3: it's reported expenses totaled six hundred and seventy four thousand

557
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 3: dollars wow, which is the majority of the moundy and

558
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 3: nearly half of that was spent on promotion and advertising.

559
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 3: According to The New York Times, the charity spent more

560
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 3: on ads than they act actually gave away, which is

561
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: fantastic charity work.

562
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: Oh fuck, good work.

563
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 3: Through this foundation, he also sells cash merchandise which is

564
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 3: spelled K money sign.

565
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: H Yeah, that's that guy's gonna really fbi.

566
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 3: Well, including six packs of wine for two hundred and

567
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 3: forty bucks and fifty dollars golf polo shirts. Part of

568
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 3: these polo shirts have this like, you know, like pro

569
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 3: America branding. I want to read the description of one

570
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 3: of them. Tired of seeing your money go overseas, support

571
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 3: your fellow Americans by purchasing our T shirt. Where do

572
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 3: you think this T shirt's made?

573
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 4: Robert China?

574
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 3: Well it's made in Haiti, oh Haiti.

575
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 2: Oh okay, the America of the Ocean.

576
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 4: And South America.

577
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 3: So you know you're still supporting Americans, just South Americans.

578
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

579
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 3: Now this foundation is also fun to defamation lawsuits for

580
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 3: a stop the steal activist and his friend and former

581
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,719
Speaker 3: boss at National Intelligence. But Patel's grifting does go beyond

582
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: his foundation. Just earlier this year, Patel was hawking anti

583
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 3: vaccine supplement pills from the company Warrior Essentials Wow, specifically

584
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 3: the pills that claim to reverse the effects of the

585
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 3: COVID nineteen vaccine.

586
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 4: I love that.

587
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 3: What if these pills just give you covid, they're just

588
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 3: COVID pills.

589
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you just want to get covid.

590
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 4: Want to reverse the effects of the vaccine.

591
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: It's a performance enhancered you know, if we could conviit, well,

592
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: that's to say, if we could convince Joe Rogan covids

593
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: to performance enhancer. I don't think we could get Joe

594
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: Rogan's fans to spread any more disease than they already do. Yeah,

595
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 2: that's impossible.

596
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 3: So this product that Patel was selling is called no

597
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 3: Covid Dome, and it's allegedly formulated to quote destroy the

598
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 3: toxic spike unquote caused by the mRNA vaccine.

599
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: Now we should have called the COVID vaccines no covid

600
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: it's a good name. That was just leaving money on

601
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: the table. Or Novid.

602
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 4: No It's good.

603
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: Novid would have been a great note.

604
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 4: It's good. Yeah, Novid's good.

605
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I go.

606
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 3: According to journalist James Little, these no Covidum pills just

607
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 3: contain basic supplement ingredients like tumeric extract, green tea extract,

608
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 3: and vitamin D.

609
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: Great.

610
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, a subscription for a thirty day supply is for

611
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 3: forty nine dollars and ninety eight cents. Jesus chries, and

612
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 3: a single order of pills is fifty nine dollars in

613
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 3: ninety eight cents. They're really pushing the subscription because you

614
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 3: gotta keep doing more pills every thirty days in order

615
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 3: to really keep the vacs suppressed. In a post this

616
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,479
Speaker 3: past February on True Social Patel truth Spike the vacs

617
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 3: order this home run kit to ridge your body of

618
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 3: the harms of the vacs.

619
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 4: Unquote, my god.

620
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 3: I just can't believe that a guy like this could

621
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 3: be FBI director. It's just it just it makes me.

622
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: It's it's I mean, it probably will wind up being

623
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 2: much more dangerous. But there is a version of this

624
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: where the FBI just pivots to selling supplements like where

625
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 2: you get where you get your estrogen and testosterone through

626
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 2: the MBI. Look, as long as it's market it is

627
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: like a performance enhancement.

628
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 3: I would love to believe that a guy like this

629
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 3: will lead to just general and competence. But I just

630
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 3: can't let myself believe that, Like I think it's just

631
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 3: going to become more and more targeted against like people

632
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 3: who are good.

633
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're going to start, yeah with them. I mean

634
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 2: it looks like just based on his enemy lists, they're

635
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: going to start with Biden administration officials and people in

636
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: the government. But like it won't end there. It's going

637
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: to depend on what happens, Like it'll be a reactive,

638
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: violent organization, which to a degree it always has been,

639
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: but there's always been like more of a sense of

640
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: like predictability that will not be present well.

641
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 3: And specifically, Like you know, Patel has also been a

642
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 3: recurring Gray Zone guest and is pretty close with that

643
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 3: whole crew.

644
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 4: That's not great for certain.

645
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 3: People, but he really is the gift that keeps on

646
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 3: giving in terms of like odd anecdotes, including his trilogy

647
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 3: of books, which will be kind of the last thing

648
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: I talk about here. So over the course of the

649
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: past three years, Patel has written and published a children's

650
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 3: book trilogy titled The Plot Against the King, where Patel

651
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 3: himself appears as a wizard to defend King Donald from

652
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 3: enemy plots.

653
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: Oh God, the one thing we all used to be

654
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: able to agree on is that we don't like kings.

655
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 3: Here no, but now we have the FBI director who

656
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 3: fancies himself the wizard to protect the king. I am

657
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 3: going to read the description from the first book here

658
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 3: quote a fantastical retelling of the terrible true story. Hillary

659
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 3: Queenton and her shifty nine had spread lies that King

660
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 3: Donald had cheated to become king. They claimed he was

661
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: working with the Russianians.

662
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 2: But how could that be Russians?

663
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 4: Russian Onians.

664
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 3: It's it's bad, okay, r U S S I O

665
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,479
Speaker 3: N I A N S.

666
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 2: This is the kind of thing the FBI should be

667
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 2: cracking down on. That's all. That's all I'll say about that.

668
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 3: Cash the distinguished discoverer joined him as he uncovers the

669
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 3: plot against the king and who was really behind all

670
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 3: the lies unquote. Now Patel referred to this as quote

671
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 3: the first ever children's Russia gate books unquote, which I

672
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 3: gotta give him to him.

673
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 4: That's probably true.

674
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 2: That's almost well, no, because okay, you know what, I

675
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: don't think it is, but it came from the opposite side.

676
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: Do you remember when the fucking Crassenstein brothers put out

677
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 2: that children's book about Robert Muller.

678
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 3: No, oh, you're right, Yes, this is another lie.

679
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: With Weave Bannon because his hair was a weasel. I think, yeah,

680
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: this was another lie. This was another lie from Cash.

681
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: The Crass and Steins beat you to this. This is

682
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 2: truly the tear of man we're operating with. I'm going

683
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 2: to start pulling every connection I have to somebody in

684
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 2: Congress so that when he's being confirmed I can get

685
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 2: up and hit him on this.

686
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 7: You claim to have written the first children's book about

687
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 7: them that I bring in the Crass and Steed brother.

688
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 7: No oh, they're gonna sell MTG on crypto.

689
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 2: It's gonna be amazing.

690
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, there's two other books in the series. Part two

691
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 3: Quote tells the fantastical story of how two inquisitive minds,

692
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 3: Denesh and Debbie search for the truth to uncover evidence

693
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 3: of a terrible scheme.

694
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: Who has been forced by a court to announce in

695
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 2: public that he did not uncover any scheme.

696
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 3: Part two is titled two Thousand Mules. It is no

697
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 3: longer available on Amazon due to like all the lawsuits

698
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 3: around this just being fake.

699
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: Because they broke a bunch of laws, because it was

700
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: criminal and lies.

701
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 3: Yes, search for the truth to uncover evidence of a

702
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 3: terrible scheme to elect Sleepy Joe instead of King Donald

703
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 3: on a choosing day unquote.

704
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: Choosing day just called it election.

705
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 4: Man, No, because it's fought. It's when they choose their king.

706
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: There are kings that are elected anyway.

707
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 3: The back of the book reads, come join Dneshan Debbie

708
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 3: as they try to answer some troubling questions. Why did

709
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,919
Speaker 3: the counting stop in the middle of the night. Why

710
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 3: were there more votes than people in the kingdom? What

711
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 3: is up with all the glowing Pooh?

712
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,439
Speaker 4: Unquote? That is what it actually says. Now, why I'm not.

713
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 2: What is the glowing Pooh supposed to be?

714
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 3: I don't know, because I can't scam Amazon to buy

715
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 3: the book and return it because it's no longer available

716
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 3: on Amazon. I don't know what the glowing Pooh is.

717
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: Sorry, listeners, if one of you has a copy of

718
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: this book.

719
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Then Part three is titled Return of

720
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 3: the King okay quote. It continues the silly yet important

721
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 3: journey of the Maga King as he returns to take

722
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 3: down Kamalala Law and reclaim.

723
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 4: His throne unquote.

724
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 3: Okay, so yeah, that's Cash Patel possible new FBI director.

725
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 3: Oh who also produced a song titled Justice for All,

726
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 3: which is a version of the national anthem but sung

727
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 3: by all J six defendants in prison, with proceeds going

728
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 3: to the Cash Foundation. So he also released a song

729
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 3: which was not on my rap this year. Unfortunately.

730
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 2: That's a shame and I'm just double checking something. Yes,

731
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: and he stole the name of his song from a

732
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: Metallica album, one of the better Metallica albums. This is

733
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 2: the one that has one on it. Oh my god,

734
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 2: you son of a bitch.

735
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 3: I mean, it just is so odd to have the

736
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 3: FBI director making a song with imprisoned J six defendants.

737
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 3: You know, it really does is just throw my head

738
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 3: into a little bit of a spin.

739
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see the current like FBI

740
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 2: agents react to that, But I guess we'll see. We're

741
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 2: all gonna learn a lot about the FBI, one way

742
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 2: or the other.

743
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 3: Any closing thoughts here on mister Patel, Now that we've

744
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,959
Speaker 3: done a very brief overview of his life story ending

745
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,240
Speaker 3: with this children's book.

746
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 2: He seems like he's qualified to do something.

747
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 4: That's what everyone's saying that's what everyone's saying.

748
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 3: You No, Like, like every single person who's like announced,

749
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 3: you know, you get a wave of headlines from people

750
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 3: who work in government being like this is the most

751
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 3: unqualified person ever nominated for this position, and like it

752
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 3: just keeps happening that I don't even feel obligated to

753
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 3: like quote or say any of these things, because like

754
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 3: we all know what's happening, Like, yeah, we all know

755
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 3: why this is going on.

756
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 4: Like that doesn't that doesn't matter.

757
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: No, And I think that's one of the things I

758
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 2: have no desire in focusing on, Like what Trump is doing.

759
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: That's like he's breaking the law, he's violating a norm.

760
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: Like I want to hear you know, what are you

761
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: again I do to stop it? Right? What is actually

762
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: being done to try to resist this? Right? Like otherwise

763
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 2: it's at least when it comes to stuff from elected leaders,

764
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just not interested in like, oh, he

765
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: broke an outther a lot, Yeah, that's what he does.

766
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: What comes next?

767
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 3: And he hires guys like Patel to clean up his

768
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 3: messes and do all his dirty work. And if they

769
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,439
Speaker 3: do it, they can slow the right to the ranks

770
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 3: and become director of the FBI. Yeah, and that's the

771
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 3: political strategy that they are all working with and have

772
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 3: a run to success yet again in twenty twenty four. Well,

773
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 3: I guess stay tuned for more happenings here as they

774
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 3: continue for the rest of this week and for the

775
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 3: next four years.

776
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 2: Ah, welcome back. It could happen here. A podcast about

777
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: the things that are happening all around us, including, shockingly

778
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,439
Speaker 2: in the last week something we did not expect two

779
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 2: weeks ago, the fall of the Assad regime, which our

780
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: official stance as a network is that fuck him. This

781
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: is pretty good, but a lot of people feel differently,

782
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 2: and to talk with me about that. Another guy who's

783
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 2: always angry about Syria and also has been to Syria, James,

784
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 2: And you know, just as a note, I think a

785
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 2: lot of the people podcasting about this right now are

786
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: talking about a place they've never been, although James and

787
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: I have not been to EdLib. So you know, it's true.

788
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: We're going to be fairly focused on our experiences in

789
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 2: the Kurdish regions, but at least we're not just bullshitting

790
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 2: about a place that we've read about on the internet.

791
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, claiming deep on the ground understanding of a place

792
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: from ready, Yes, that is not us.

793
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 4: Yeah we uh. I briefly look at regime held Syria.

794
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah over from a comichelo where is kind

795
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 2: of the governance capital of Rojava, but is also a

796
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: big chunk of it was held by the Assad regimes.

797
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 2: You would just periodically like see that fucker's face on

798
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: the wall as you were a crossing the street.

799
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 4: It's a good times.

800
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: But my fixer would come around at noon for whatever

801
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: reason when I was in Rajava, and like, I hate

802
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: to sitting in the hotel, so I'd go out for

803
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,919
Speaker 1: walks around the market. Yeah, not advised by the old

804
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: safety people.

805
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: But no, one of the sketchiest cities I've been in, Yeah,

806
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 2: because of the presence of regime troops.

807
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, everything else was lovely. Yeah, people are lovely.

808
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 5: Yeah.

809
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: I'd be walking down the street and like I'd be

810
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: looking around, see has anything interesting to go and see?

811
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: And then you can literally take one wrong turn down

812
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: the street and walk into to regime Syria, as you

813
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: covered in in the Women's War. Like I was walking

814
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: down one street and this man walked up to me

815
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: and m curtis, she's not very good. Tried to say hello,

816
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 1: told him my name and stuff, and then he starts

817
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 1: getting more agitated, and he just starts repeating a higher

818
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: and horror volume, a sad bad man.

819
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah man, stay away, bro, stay away.

820
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 4: He's like, you're going to fucking die to be.

821
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 2: A fucking of all. Yeah.

822
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, girl expars to that guy.

823
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, barsie barshi.

824
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 4: Yeah it is. It was a very straight situation.

825
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 1: It is no longer a straight situation because in the

826
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: last week the A Side regime has crumbled. Statues of

827
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: him have been torn down all over the country, which

828
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: we love to see. It's another of us dancers other

829
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: network is fuck a statue?

830
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, fuck most statues.

831
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: Most statues. There are probably some cool ones. Does a

832
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 1: lady hitting the Nazi with a handbag in Sweden? That's

833
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: a good statue, But yeah, most statues, most statues of

834
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: dudes in suits.

835
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 4: Don't love them.

836
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: No, very few dudes in suits. I want to see

837
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 2: a statue.

838
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 4: Of Yeah, I can't think of any right now.

839
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not coming to me.

840
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sure it will.

841
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 1: So these statues have been torn down because your said

842
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: regime has basically crumbled. It failed to really put up

843
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: any meaningful resistance to this advance by different rebel groups,

844
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,720
Speaker 1: right by HTS, by SNA, by the Southern Front as well,

845
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: and despite I guess even what I would have said

846
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: two weeks ago, right me, even after they lost Aleppo,

847
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: I assumed that they would regroup in Hama or Homs

848
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: and they did not. They completely failed to do so.

849
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 1: Their Russian backers more or less abandoned them, focused on

850
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: getting their stuff and their people, those who survived out

851
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: of the country, and as a result, there is no

852
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 1: more a SAD regime. Right A SAD fled the country

853
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: at some point. It was initially speculated that a Sad

854
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: had fled on an aircraft on Saturday night as rebels

855
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: were entering Damascus. That seems to be untrue, or perhaps

856
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: it was true, but the speculation that aircraft had crashed

857
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: or have been shut down, certainly it does not seem

858
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: to SAD now seems to be.

859
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 2: I think. Look, I made the call about two days

860
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: before the regime fell that I felt he was out

861
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 2: of the country, based on some reporting, including reporting from

862
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 2: the Serian regime, that he'd gone to Iran first. I

863
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: think he left days before it fell. I don't think

864
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: he's Yeah, he's got enough instinct for self preservation that

865
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 2: I think he got the fuck out of there.

866
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, he didn't want to be found in a hole

867
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,240
Speaker 1: in the ground right like here, or end up like Canafi.

868
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 4: I guess, so he left.

869
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: It's quite possible that he was doing a sort of

870
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: final please please help Me tour of Russia rum which

871
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: turned turned into his eventual exile. In breaking news, Robert,

872
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if you've seen this

873
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: telegram post, and obviously we can't confirm it because we

874
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: don't have a direct clansi Assad regime. But allegedly he

875
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: is planning on setting up a specialized hospital in the

876
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: field of ophthalmology in Russia, Abkhazia and Dubai.

877
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

878
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 2: Great, great place for him to be working.

879
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, wonderful, cool stuff. Yeah cool. Yeah, not not at

880
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: the Hague where he belongs.

881
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

882
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: Anyway, he is gone, and we have seen in response,

883
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: like some of the worst social media posting that I've seen.

884
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 1: And I don't want this to be like like Twitter review.

885
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: I think that obviously that's pointless and pure ut but

886
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: I want to address I guess this kind of really

887
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: disappointing response I've seen from a lot of people on

888
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: the left that oh, yeah, well either I mean you

889
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: have the like the grey zone tendency, right that the

890
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: sab was great actually in the protection of human rights

891
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: in the region, and the like the Syria was socialism

892
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: in Karna, which is obviously nonsense, right, Like, this is

893
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: a person who, as we have seen in the last week,

894
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: whose regime prisons were holding thousands of people, killed tens

895
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: of thousands of people, tortured people to death in some

896
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: cases in Sednaia prison, which is a big prison in Damascus,

897
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: certainly a Damascus i should.

898
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 4: Say, towards the coast.

899
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: It looks as if there were children in that prison

900
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: who were possibly born in that prison and may have

901
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: never been out of that prison, which is like one

902
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 1: of the most horrible things I've ever had to think about,

903
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: you know, like like a little child four or five

904
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: years old never having seen the sky. It's just it's heartbreaking,

905
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 1: Like a lot of the things we are going to find,

906
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 1: the things we're going to hear about in the next

907
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: few weeks heartbreaking. And anybody who's prepared to apologize for

908
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: that or prepared to say that that was good, I

909
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,439
Speaker 1: think you really need to question if there's someone who's

910
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: aligned with you. But in addition to that tendency, there's

911
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: one that sort of holds that in Syria, like what

912
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 1: will come next is worse? Right, what will come next

913
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: to or we don't know, of course, we don't know

914
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:23,439
Speaker 1: what will come next, None of us can see the future,

915
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,399
Speaker 1: but what will come next will make a sad look

916
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: like it was a preferable option, And like, I feel

917
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: that we need to address that because I think it's

918
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: one of the long legacies of authoritarian socialist how do

919
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: I say this, like the authoritarian socialist media project.

920
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 2: And that kind of colliding with the Iraq war anti

921
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 2: anti war movement, yes, you know, yeah, the whole hands

922
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: off Syria thing that groups like the PSL, the Party

923
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 2: for Socialism and Liberation we're doing when the rebel started

924
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 2: this offensive, being like we've got to stop you know,

925
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 2: these US backed rebels from taking you know, Syria for

926
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: the empires, Like, man, the fuck it. It's not the

927
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 2: US that was primarily backing the rebels that did most

928
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: of the fighting. Like these guys are Turkish backed, you know, yeah, yeah,

929
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 2: the extent that that even matters, right, Like the that

930
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: like this is not the CIA did not orchestrate all

931
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 2: of this. The guys the CIA were really trying to

932
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 2: back in Syria basically all died.

933
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, they've gone.

934
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: Some of the weapons, sure that the US supplied in

935
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: Timber Sycamore are probably stood in the hands of HTS, but.

936
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 2: Yes, some of them. But like even that's not the

937
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 2: bulk of the weaponry that those fuckers know using.

938
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: The entire weaponry of the Syrian arabambi is also in

939
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: the hands of the HDS, which we'll move on to

940
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: actually because maybe we should address that now before we

941
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: address responses. Actually, yeah, when we talk about international involvement

942
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: in Syria, right, we talk about the United States who

943
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: has supported the SDF not as a project, and this

944
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: is important. They don't support the Democratic Autonomous Administration nor

945
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: from Assyria as a democratic project. Support is the SDF

946
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: as a partner force in the fight against ISIS, and

947
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: that's been very clear when they have failed to defend

948
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: the anes against genocidal violence, ethnic cleansing in a free

949
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: and right what we're seeing again now in the Talifat area.

950
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: I'll use that terminology because if you want to look

951
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: it up on Google Maps, that's easier to find the

952
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: violence that we've seen repeatedly from the Turkish back Syrian

953
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 1: National Army or Turkish free Syrian Armies are sometimes called. Right,

954
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: the United States hasn't defended the people of the ans

955
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: against and it won't because that's not what it's there

956
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: to do. And as much as we would like it too,

957
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: I don't think that as in the nature of the

958
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: US mission in Syria, and I don't think it's in

959
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: the nature of the US as a state to support

960
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: a project which is seeking to build democracy without the state.

961
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:50,959
Speaker 1: It's not in the nature of the state.

962
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 2: We stumbled backwards accidentally into exactly once supporting the good

963
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 2: guys in the conflict, you know, specifically in the conflict

964
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 2: with I. Yeah, like a broken clock, and we immediately

965
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 2: ever since we have been trying as hard as we

966
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,399
Speaker 2: can to pull back and you know, betray them, yes

967
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 2: to their deaths like that. That That is the story

968
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 2: of US support of Rojava.

969
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not. This is not a US proxy state.

970
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 1: Some people trying to tell you it is not a

971
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 1: CIA revolution of some people are trying to tell you.

972
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: Indeed, Now, part part of what gives fuel for that

973
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: is there are a number of photos of like US

974
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 2: troops really vibing with the WHITEPG and YPG and they're

975
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:28,919
Speaker 2: vibing with them, And you and I could both say

976
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 2: this having been with those people. They're nice.

977
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're fun, they're chill folks.

978
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have good music and they like to done

979
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: generally cool people.

980
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I enjoy that company. I have vibed with

981
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 4: the WHITEPG.

982
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 2: You know, like, it's hard not to see a bunch

983
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 2: of young women who like left isis captivity and immediately

984
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 2: said give me a gun. I'm going to learn how

985
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: to use it and be like, yeah, that's pretty cool.

986
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 2: Good for you.

987
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's one of the coolest things that's happened in

988
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 4: the Middle East in the past century.

989
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like, the United States does not have a

990
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: plan for what has happened in the last two weeks,

991
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 1: and it appears to be trying to think on the

992
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 1: hoof right now. Joe Biden's foreign policy has been dog

993
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 1: shit and it doesn't look like he's going to pull

994
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:13,959
Speaker 1: a one eighty.

995
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 3: Now.

996
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 1: We should not expect the United States to save for Java.

997
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: We should do everything we can to get the United

998
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 1: States to continue supporting the people who gave more than

999
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: ten thousand of their children in the battle against ISIS.

1000
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: The US didn't want to say ground troops right at

1001
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: Obama didn't want to have another ground war. Neither did Trump,

1002
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 1: and so they got people from the SDF to do

1003
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: the dying and a lot of the killing were they

1004
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: maintained an aerial presence, was a light ground footprint. We

1005
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: shouldn't expect the US to show up for the people

1006
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 1: who showed.

1007
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 4: Up for it. That's not in its nature.

1008
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: The only state that had a plan for what happened

1009
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: in the last two weeks appears to have been Israel.

1010
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: Disappointingly right, Russia and Iran seem to have largely scrambled

1011
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: extracted their state assets. Russia got some of its people out,

1012
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,959
Speaker 1: they took some of the aircraft out, it ran.

1013
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 4: Likewise, the US seems to be kind of scrambling.

1014
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are still some like odas, some Special

1015
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: Forces guys embedded with the SDF. I'm sure that in

1016
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: the areas where ISIS has written up, because in some

1017
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,919
Speaker 1: areas where the regime has pulled back, there has been

1018
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: an increasing presence of ISIS sleeper cells trying to sort

1019
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 1: of once again control territory and attack the SDF in

1020
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 1: those areas. I'm sure that there are US special forces

1021
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 1: like directing air strikes, but I don't think the US

1022
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:33,399
Speaker 1: is going to come and say Brisia. But the only

1023
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: country that had a plan was Israel. And what Israel's

1024
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: plan was was to invade Syria in the Golan Heights right,

1025
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: to increase their area of control, and then to bomb

1026
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: almost all of the aircraft. And perhaps I don't know

1027
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: it also includes air defense systems, but from what the

1028
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 1: IDF is saying today, they have bombed all of the

1029
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: Syrian Air Forces aircraft that had fallen into rebel hands.

1030
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 1: This includes ammunition for the aircraft. It includes the ammunition

1031
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: dump at Comishlow Airport. About half an hour before Robert

1032
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 1: and I started recording here on Monday, I saw a

1033
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: video from a friend in Kamishlow of the ammunition dump

1034
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: at the airport, which have previously belonged to the regime

1035
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 1: now belongs to the A and E s exploding after

1036
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 1: it had been hit by an IDFs. Right. So what

1037
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: they're trying to do, I guess, is deny any of

1038
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: those weapons to people who they perceive as a threat

1039
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: to their interests. Yep, and like there's been I don't

1040
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: know if you're seeing this also row it by a

1041
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: lot of like Israeli accounts being like, oh we stand

1042
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: with the curd Israel and the Kurds are won. And

1043
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 1: first of all, I want to warn you. I want

1044
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,720
Speaker 1: to warn you that we have an advertising breakcoming. Robert

1045
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: is what I want to warn you about.

1046
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:53,240
Speaker 2: Oh well, speaking of well, actually not speaking of the IDF, thankfully,

1047
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 2: but speaking about maybe the California State Highway Patrol. Here's

1048
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:08,439
Speaker 2: some ads we're back.

1049
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1050
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,399
Speaker 1: Firstly, I think when you're seeing analysis about Syria, any

1051
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 1: when he talks about things in terms of these monolithic blocks,

1052
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: this Israeli counts, often we will support the Kurds. I

1053
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: would be sometimes I'll maybe use that to refer to

1054
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: A and E S or the SDF. But I really

1055
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 1: trend on too because it's a multi ethnic project. Right,

1056
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,919
Speaker 1: like the areas that we'll talk about in a minute

1057
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,760
Speaker 1: where the SDF is being attacked those areas, the largest

1058
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: component of the SDF is is Arab, yeah, forces right,

1059
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 1: and that that is the case in the SDF as

1060
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,800
Speaker 1: a whole. Actually, the majority of the SDF is now Arab,

1061
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: not not Kurdish. I would be very skeptic of the

1062
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: expertise of anyone who refers to things in these monolithic absolutes, right,

1063
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: the Sunnis, the Shias, yeah, the alah Whites, the Kurds.

1064
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 1: There are a lot of different groups in Syria, and

1065
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: those groups are comprised of individuals, and those individuals shockingly

1066
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: have different and distinct goals and experiences and desires.

1067
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 4: Like there are.

1068
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely al of whites who will have remained loyal to

1069
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 1: us sad there are others who, like the monstery did not,

1070
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: as we've seen in the last week, right, And so

1071
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: I would be skeptical of anyone who tries to paint

1072
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: things in those terms. And I would be skeptical, to

1073
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 1: return to what we were talking about earlier, Robert, of

1074
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 1: people who tell you that, like we should expect the

1075
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 1: one I see most is Syria to turn into Lebanon, right,

1076
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 1: And like you and I have been talking about this

1077
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 1: before we recorded, but that's not a useful example in

1078
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: my mind of what we're likely to see in Syria, right,

1079
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 1: And the reason for that is that like in Lebanon, yes,

1080
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 1: there was a there was like a US Air.

1081
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 4: Component, as there is in Syria. That's true.

1082
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: But I don't understand why we would look at the

1083
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: example of Lebanon, a place thousands of miles away, when

1084
00:54:55,239 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 1: we have at least two examples of governance in Syria, right,

1085
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: people who have been governing in one case for more

1086
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 1: than a decade significant.

1087
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 4: Parts of Syria. Like they have a government project.

1088
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: In the case of the ANS, I don't think it's

1089
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: fair to call it a state project. Like they would

1090
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 1: tell you that they're trying to build democracy without the state,

1091
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: which is something that which might not be popular with states, evidently,

1092
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 1: which doesn't let them the support of many states, as

1093
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: we've seen. But we have and with HDS in July

1094
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: and the Salvation government, Right, we have these two governance projects.

1095
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: They're extremely different, right. The Salvation Government under HDS is

1096
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: people have been arrested for playing music at their own weddings.

1097
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: It is, it is neither democratic nor particularly liberatory. And

1098
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: then we have the an S, which I would argue

1099
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: is the only democracy in the Middle East. Yeah, certainly,

1100
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: the only democracy where people of different ethnicities and genders

1101
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: matter the same amount.

1102
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly the only like multi ethnic democracy. Yes, in

1103
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 2: the Middle East. That's functional.

1104
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you're you're straining the definition of democracy

1105
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: if you're constraining it by ethnicity, right, right, So I

1106
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: think you can make a good case for it being

1107
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: the only democracy in the Middle East. I saw this

1108
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: really atrocious BBC interview this morning. I'm trying to network.

1109
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: Some networks now have reporters on the ground in Damascus,

1110
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: and I've been trying to watch those to see sort

1111
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 1: of what's going on. It can be very hard to

1112
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 1: just get your news from telegram. Like I would also

1113
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: caution people who are perhaps new to this, who who

1114
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 1: are finding these telegram channels, to take everything you read

1115
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: on there with a pinch of salt. You'll see a

1116
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 1: lot of disinformation there. One of the BBC had an

1117
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 1: expert on and he was like, Oh, every time we

1118
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: see people pulling down statues of dictators, I'm a bit concerned,

1119
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: and like, I have to think about how to express this.

1120
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 1: It seems to me deeply as lamophobic or bigoted or racist.

1121
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 1: I don't quite know the white term to say. Oh,

1122
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 1: the people of this country and the places in the

1123
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: last ten twenty years where we've seen people pulling down

1124
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 1: statues of dictators have largely been in the Middle East

1125
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 1: right to say that, oh, these people are incapable of

1126
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,959
Speaker 1: self governance, these people are incapable of living in peace

1127
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: with one another, But like they're not. We've seen that

1128
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 1: in Rajava, and I don't think that the right response

1129
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: now is to respond with skepticism to like the Syrian

1130
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: people's ability to live in peace. They've been at war

1131
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 1: for fifteen years, fourteen years, thirteen thirteen years, thirteen and

1132
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 1: a half years. But I think that there is not

1133
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: an appetite for more killing and more dying, certainly from

1134
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: what I've seen and what I've heard.

1135
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: No exhaustion is a factor here, Like you really cannot

1136
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 2: emphasize enough how long I mean, HTS and the SNA

1137
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 2: have been at this and how fucking tired, particularly like

1138
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 2: HTS has to be. Like this has been more than

1139
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 2: a decade of constant terror and violence. So I do

1140
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 2: think that that's going to be a factor, and like

1141
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 2: what happens next, I should hope it will be.

1142
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean some things I don't know how to interpret. Right,

1143
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: HTS has asked the regime, police and authorities in cities

1144
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 1: to stay on Some of that is probably good, right,

1145
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 1: Like the people who ensure that the water gets pumped.

1146
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 1: I hope that they stay pumping the water. The people

1147
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 1: who were the police cybe regime. It's here an Arab republic.

1148
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: I don't want those people to stay on. I want

1149
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 1: those people to fuck off, and I want those people

1150
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 1: to be held accountable for the crimes that committed. But

1151
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 1: it doesn't point to sort of wild sectarian violence. We

1152
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 1: don't have the situation we had in Iraq, right, Right,

1153
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: we have a US occupation which sits inside its basis

1154
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: and it only leaves c biglely to kill people. Right

1155
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 1: from the perspective of the people living in Iraq, that

1156
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 1: that's what the US occupation looked like for the most part. Right,

1157
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: it's guys in big military vehicles who kill civilians by mistake.

1158
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 4: We don't have that here.

1159
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: There's not that resentment, generational resentment that allowed the Islamic

1160
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: state to grow there. Now, the Islamic state did grow

1161
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: through capturing a lot of state institutions, which is HTS

1162
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 1: is done. But I don't see that same resentment, and

1163
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: they don't see that same desire for sort of redemptive

1164
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: violence that we saw. That I might be wrong, right,

1165
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: that there might be more into communal violence. I have

1166
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 1: seen some videos of what looked like summary executions in

1167
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: Damascus today. That's very concerning.

1168
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, But also I mean, look, there's some people who

1169
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 2: need to be summer really executed in.

1170
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 4: This you know. Yeah, if you've got to shoot someone,

1171
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:27,439
Speaker 4: fuck it. Yeah.

1172
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 2: If you're looking at the photos of just like thousands

1173
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 2: of shoes and decomposed bodies, dissolved acid, its aid Naya prison,

1174
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 2: like you're liberating those places, you catch anyone who was

1175
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 2: working there. I'm not going to say that that's a

1176
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 2: bad thing to do. I might do the same thing,

1177
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 2: and there's that you in their circumstances.

1178
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can't blame somewhere. I can understand someone doing that.

1179
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 2: What are you going to do?

1180
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can understand that in the next few days

1181
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 1: they will probably be more of that violence, because we

1182
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 1: are literally in some cases opening the lid on some

1183
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 1: of the west crimes against humanity of this century.

1184
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and they are going to be catching There

1185
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 2: are a lot of mok brat, you know, secret police

1186
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 2: guys who didn't get out, who were throwing on We've

1187
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 2: got videos of them leaving the palace throwing on civilian

1188
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 2: clothes yep, and I'm not going to be shocked if

1189
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 2: a lot of the justice process of that is ugly. Now,

1190
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 2: I do suspect that Joe Lannie is going to at

1191
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 2: least grab a chunk of those guys and do trials

1192
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 2: because he is really looking for state legitimacy, you know,

1193
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 2: and that's one way you get it.

1194
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's his project now, But that's not going to

1195
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 1: be how all these guys go down. Some of these

1196
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 1: guys are going to die, and uh, yeah, they're just

1197
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: gonna get fucking got yeah. Yeah, And look, they got

1198
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people they kind of had it coming

1199
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: to me and not particularly concerned about that. I'm more

1200
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: broadly concerned with, like what are you doing on the left?

1201
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: If you see people in the streets, you see people

1202
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: tearing down statues of dictators, you see people celebrating the

1203
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 1: end of a regime that oppressed them for decades, and

1204
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: you immediately go to, oh, this is bad, Like why

1205
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 1: do you even bother? If we don't believe that people

1206
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: can govern themselves, if we don't believe that the people

1207
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: in the street are normally the people who are right,

1208
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 1: and if we don't believe that the downfall of tyrannical

1209
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: regimes is.

1210
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 4: A good thing.

1211
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, what what do you believe? You know, if you're

1212
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 2: just torturing it to be like, well no, you know,

1213
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 2: you and I both read that there was a post

1214
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 2: earlier today with someone being like these leftists purity politics,

1215
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 2: you know, to be angry that aside kept a lid

1216
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 2: on radical Islam and isis and just didn't do it

1217
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 2: super cleanly. And it's man, he was fucking guessing children,

1218
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 2: like what do you? Where are you here? Yeah? What

1219
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 2: is wrong with you? Come on? Man?

1220
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is yeah, this is a person who drop

1221
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 1: chlorine gas on blocks of flats with little children in them, right, like.

1222
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:42,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, fuck this guy.

1223
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 1: It's good that he's gone. I wish he was dead.

1224
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: I'm sad that he gets to go and be an mphalmologist,

1225
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 1: like he, of all people, needs to be held accountable

1226
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 1: for his crimes.

1227
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, some could have. We could have a song

1228
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 2: on Anteleirian kind of situation, right, Yeah, who's the Armenian

1229
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 2: who shot a member of the Turkey government in Berlin?

1230
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah we could have something like that, go down God willing?

1231
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you never know they yeah, I guess people

1232
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 1: there he's in Russia.

1233
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 2: Now he's in Russia.

1234
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 4: Someone will find him in his high end eye clinic

1235
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 4: one day.

1236
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's probably going to be going back and forth

1237
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 2: to Dubai. There's some Syrians who wound up in Dubai.

1238
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 2: Somebody might stab them.

1239
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, we can hope.

1240
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 1: But I want to take one more break talking of stabbing.

1241
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe we will get an advert for knives, you know. Yeah,

1242
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 1: I've never had a knife advert, have.

1243
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 2: We No, I don't know that we have. And I

1244
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 2: would sell the hell out of knives.

1245
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, almost any knives, even crappy gas stach night, Like,

1246
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 1: if you make the ones that look like an oil slick,

1247
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 1: get in touch with the advertising department at iHeartMedia.

1248
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 4: We'll pimp them. All Right, we're back.

1249
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: The last thing I want to talk about, Robert, is

1250
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 1: how the rebels won, because there was not a lot

1251
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: of fighting after the collap Civil EPO, but before there

1252
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 1: was fighting, and in part how that fighting went I

1253
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 1: think led to the downfall of the morale of the

1254
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: Syriat army. Right, so there are some things here that

1255
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 1: both Robert and I are somewhat nerdy about about conflicts, right,

1256
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: like it there's something even when we're not attending was.

1257
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 1: We like to read about them, and you and I

1258
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 1: both take a great interest in history, and I think

1259
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 1: we'd be unwise to not look at this and learn

1260
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 1: from it, especially with HTS who massively professionalized since the

1261
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: ceasefire in twenty twenty. I think professionalists is probably the

1262
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 1: right word. Like that command, the technology, that the way

1263
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: they operated looked a lot more like a modern military

1264
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 1: than it did, you know, the militias, like I'm sure

1265
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: you and I both remember the early Syrian of a

1266
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 1: war for people who are a bit younger than us.

1267
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:54,919
Speaker 1: Like some of the most incredible improvised weapons that I've seen.

1268
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there was literally at one point they had

1269
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 2: an Ottoman era black powder or cannon on the back

1270
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 2: of a flatbed that they were using to hit regime positions.

1271
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 1: That they had literally taken out of the museum in

1272
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 1: a leopard to yaket it out of the museum.

1273
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 4: Fucking amazing stuff like theredible.

1274
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 2: Only I thought the top of like that sort of

1275
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 2: thing was when fucking insertance in Afghanistan would use seventeenth

1276
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 2: century Jazils to shoot at US troops. But the Ottoman

1277
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 2: cannon is really a was that's a flex.

1278
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, with a huge flex they they also worked, you know,

1279
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 1: they fired propane cylinders out of huge tubes, these improvised

1280
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 1: motors they called hell cannons, Like really incredible and like

1281
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 1: it speaks to the ingenuity of people and their desire

1282
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 1: not to be oppressed, right, they desire to fight against

1283
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 1: state tyranny. But when we compare that to what we

1284
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 1: saw with HTS in twenty twenty four, a world of change. Right.

1285
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 1: In particular, I think it was very interesting that they

1286
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: captured armored vehicles and and they were able to combine

1287
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 1: armor and infantry very effectively, which is not easy to

1288
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 1: do right, that has eluded even some professional militaries. They

1289
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 1: also very effectively used drones, both drones to drop bombs

1290
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 1: and drones to adjust their artillery and mortifier, which I

1291
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 1: think is something that again like that modern militaries do,

1292
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 1: but it's not easy to do right, And it's not

1293
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 1: like HDS could do massive exercises in the lead up

1294
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 1: to this operation, like they seem to have professionalized very quickly.

1295
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 1: Another area that they were you can see that they've

1296
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 1: learned a lot from the conflicts in Ukraine and perhaps

1297
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 1: in Miammar too, was their use of FPV drones, a

1298
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 1: first person in view drone. How do you describe it.

1299
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 1: It's like your eyes are on the front of the drone.

1300
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 1: Is that a good description, Robert, Yeah, it's like you're flying.

1301
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1302
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 1: And there are videos of whole classrooms of hts I guess, soldiers, militants,

1303
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 1: whatever you want, and called them practicing flying drones or

1304
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 1: using the controllers to play like a computer game where

1305
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 1: you have to like go through checkpoints and follow a

1306
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 1: route and things. And they seem to have developed like

1307
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 1: a training course that then gave them this drone brigade,

1308
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: which they used incredibly effectively. They had these massive first

1309
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 1: person view drones that were almost like a sort of

1310
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:22,280
Speaker 1: Ersat's cruise missile, and it was I think one of

1311
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 1: those that penetrated some kind of command headquarters in Aleppo

1312
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 1: in the early days of the battle there, killed several

1313
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 1: important offices and commanders and helped to then spread that

1314
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 1: panic which they rode all the way to Damascus. Right, So,

1315
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 1: like this use of drones was extremely consequential. The other

1316
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 1: thing that they used in which we've seen the SDF

1317
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 1: use a lot, is these pulse art thermal optics. So

1318
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 1: a thermal optic sees heat, right, I guess would be

1319
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 1: the easiest way to describe it. And it maps heat

1320
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 1: in a visual fashion for the user, and in this case,

1321
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 1: they put them on their rifles and they're able to

1322
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,560
Speaker 1: see other people. At our friend Carl, who we had

1323
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 1: on last week week before maybe Carl made a really

1324
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 1: good video about thermal versus night vision on his Arrange

1325
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 1: TV channel. I'll link it in the notes because I

1326
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: think it's worth people checking out. They're not familiar with

1327
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 1: this technology at all. The optics he used were not

1328
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 1: the optics they're using, but these thermal optics. You've seen

1329
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 1: them a lot with the SDF, especially in a freen

1330
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 1: like they'll do these night missions, right, and when you

1331
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:27,920
Speaker 1: look at the recording from the thermal optic, it it

1332
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 1: looks like people are glowing because they are the hottest

1333
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 1: things in that area, and it makes it very easy

1334
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 1: to target people. And HDS us these a lot when

1335
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 1: they were attacking a LAPPA, right, these thermal optics that

1336
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 1: they mounted on their rifles, and they allowed them to

1337
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 1: pretty much. The United States used to talk about owning

1338
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 1: the night right. Yes, it had night vision where no

1339
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 1: one else does. Night Vision's proliferated a long way now,

1340
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 1: and that means that some of the ways that they

1341
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 1: used to use night vision they can't anymore. Like, for instance,

1342
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 1: they used to send out lasers that were any visible

1343
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,480
Speaker 1: and the night vision to aim weapons. If your adversary

1344
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 1: has night vision as well, you've now created a giant

1345
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: line that goes right back to you if you're using

1346
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 1: a laser aiming device, So.

1347
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 4: You can't do that.

1348
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 1: But these thermal optics, especially when they're fighting against Assyrian

1349
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 1: Arabami who I mean, these conscripts are massively demoralized. Right,

1350
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 1: They're underpaid, they're under fed. Did you meet any when

1351
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:23,879
Speaker 1: you were in Jab did you meet any people who defected?

1352
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I've met a number of people who had,

1353
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 2: and some who had also had to flee, like from

1354
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:32,559
Speaker 2: Aleppo and whatnot, because they had been on like rebels

1355
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 2: fighting the Asad regime, and some had wound up in

1356
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 2: the SDF, some more just civilians living in the area.

1357
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 2: I also there's also a number of folks who commuted

1358
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:42,240
Speaker 2: like to and from regime held territory just because like

1359
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 2: if you were someone that wasn't particularly wanted, you could

1360
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:48,720
Speaker 2: do that. Yeah, it was a very confusing situation for

1361
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 2: a lot of people.

1362
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, extremely And I think when you meet the people

1363
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 1: who have been regime soldiers and come across often they're

1364
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 1: like they seem to be happy being waiters or working

1365
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:01,600
Speaker 1: in the mark in Risjaba because their pay was so

1366
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:05,640
Speaker 1: bad and their lives were so miserable as conscripts that

1367
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 1: they'd rather just come and work, you know, any job

1368
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 1: they can get in ans. And I think when you've

1369
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: got those guys going up against well trained people from

1370
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 1: HTS with these thermal optics, with these using torones, that

1371
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:22,240
Speaker 1: communications were solid. You know, you can tell from their

1372
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:25,559
Speaker 1: appearance that a lot of these guys are professionalized. They

1373
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:29,640
Speaker 1: were almost indistinguishable from US troops. Like I think you

1374
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:31,560
Speaker 1: and I had both responded to this tweet about some

1375
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:36,479
Speaker 1: YouTube guy was shocked that people were wearing helmets and

1376
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 1: body armor, which that has been the esthetic of violence,

1377
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 1: at least in places where the US has operated for

1378
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 1: I know, half a decade. Would you say, like the

1379
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:48,759
Speaker 1: sort of US Special Forces?

1380
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 2: Look, yeah, I mean, and that's just the norm for

1381
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,439
Speaker 2: dressing if you're fighting in a war anywhere on the

1382
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 2: planet now, yeh, Like, whether you're the Russian Army or

1383
01:09:57,560 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 2: some militia in Syria. It's you know, play carrier, usually

1384
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 2: like some sort of fast helmet, you've got you know,

1385
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 2: belt with sidearm mag pouches, and then usually either in

1386
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:11,719
Speaker 2: akm or some sort of aar style weapon. Like everybody

1387
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:16,639
Speaker 2: dresses that way. Everybody looks very similar. Yeah, now because

1388
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 2: it's just the most kind of I mean, number one,

1389
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:20,320
Speaker 2: there's a lot of that gear lying around and it's cheap.

1390
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:22,439
Speaker 2: And number two like it works, it's a load out

1391
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 2: that works.

1392
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very practical. Yeah, for what they're doing.

1393
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:27,360
Speaker 1: I think number three as well, like we should not

1394
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,439
Speaker 1: understate the desire to look like your avatar and call

1395
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 1: of duty.

1396
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,719
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's also looks cool. It looks like being

1397
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 2: in a movie, and that is a that matters a

1398
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 2: lot to the kind of young men who start fighting

1399
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:39,759
Speaker 2: in wars.

1400
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:40,679
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1401
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:43,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, people, I think if you've not been you won't

1402
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:46,200
Speaker 1: realize how young a lot of these people are. This

1403
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:50,320
Speaker 1: incredible professionalism or incredible professionism. I'm overstating it, but this

1404
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 1: dramatic change in the appearance and conduct of these rebels,

1405
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 1: particularly HTS, occurred over about three or four years from

1406
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 1: the cease fire in twenty twenty to this offensive in

1407
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, and I think it gives us an

1408
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 1: insight into the way that war is changing, right, that

1409
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:15,720
Speaker 1: access to information is easier than it ever has been,

1410
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 1: and access to a lot of these technologies has proliferated

1411
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 1: massively because we've seen in Myanmar, right, drones proliferate people

1412
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:29,800
Speaker 1: three D print little night vision goggles in Memba. Spoke

1413
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:31,800
Speaker 1: to Milk about it about a year and a half ago.

1414
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:35,840
Speaker 1: People remember Milk from our Meanma series about three D

1415
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:39,040
Speaker 1: printing little night vision goggles that use the camera from

1416
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:41,640
Speaker 1: you know those security cameras, Yeah, that can kind of

1417
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 1: see at night. They use those and then a tiny

1418
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:47,800
Speaker 1: LCD screen. Of course, drones are everywhere now, right, things

1419
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 1: like plate carriers even you see rebels in Meanma wearing them,

1420
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 1: buying them from Ali Express. Like all of the technology,

1421
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 1: all of the tactics are also much easier to find

1422
01:11:57,240 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 1: on the internet. You know, Robert and I have both

1423
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 1: spoken to people who go said they go on YouTube

1424
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:05,639
Speaker 1: to learn about like military tactics and small arms even

1425
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:07,760
Speaker 1: and you know, how to use different weapons systems when

1426
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:11,519
Speaker 1: they capture them. I think it's a real change in

1427
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 1: the way that conflict is conducted, and it's one that

1428
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 1: we will probably continue to see as like, you know,

1429
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:20,960
Speaker 1: the world isn't getting any more peaceful, Nope, and waste

1430
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, Russia and Iran took a

1431
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 1: massive l in Syria. That doesn't mean that they're not

1432
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 1: gone as sort of global actors. We will continue to see,

1433
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:34,240
Speaker 1: particularly Russia obviously fighting in Ukraine. And I think it's

1434
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: worth looking at what happened in Syria so that we

1435
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:38,960
Speaker 1: can understand what we're going to see in other parts

1436
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: of the world.

1437
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 2: Yep. One of the ways I like to think about

1438
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,479
Speaker 2: it that is crucial for people to understand is that

1439
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 2: Syria has largely been the laboratory in which the twenty

1440
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:52,679
Speaker 2: first century was cooked up, Like all of our futures

1441
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:55,680
Speaker 2: have to some extent been built in Syria. Both like

1442
01:12:56,439 --> 01:12:58,679
Speaker 2: this is where we get a lot of the fuel

1443
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:01,600
Speaker 2: behind the right wing surge that has been occurring over

1444
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:04,080
Speaker 2: the last few years, started because of the refugee crisis,

1445
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:06,560
Speaker 2: you know, but also a lot of the tactics and

1446
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:09,679
Speaker 2: weapons shit that like Israel is doing right now in Gaza,

1447
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:13,120
Speaker 2: like Cereal, was the lab to a significant extent for

1448
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:16,599
Speaker 2: how authoritarian regimes would crack down. And it was also

1449
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:19,719
Speaker 2: the impetus behind a lot of the most significant things

1450
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 2: that have been happening over the last decade and change.

1451
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 4: So it might still be already.

1452
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, siem and the Netherlands have stopped processing asylum applications

1453
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 1: from Syria, which is yeah, which is concerning yep. But yeah,

1454
01:13:33,720 --> 01:13:35,640
Speaker 1: I think it's worth continuing to keep an eye on.

1455
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:38,839
Speaker 1: I will continue to post about it, we will continue

1456
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 1: to inform you about it here, and we will continue

1457
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,759
Speaker 1: to bring on people who have more expertise and insight

1458
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:45,920
Speaker 1: than we do. So yeah, we hope you'll keep an

1459
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 1: eye on it. And I just want to end by

1460
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:51,360
Speaker 1: saying that like the democratic project in Rojava is under

1461
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:54,840
Speaker 1: a great deal of threat, Yes, currently more than it

1462
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:56,240
Speaker 1: has been for perhaps a decade.

1463
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:56,599
Speaker 2: Yep.

1464
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,719
Speaker 1: They do not have an ally in the United States.

1465
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 1: They do not, as far as we know, have an

1466
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:04,800
Speaker 1: ally in Israel. And from what we've seen, it's one

1467
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 1: thing what Israel says, it's another thing what Israel does,

1468
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 1: and what Israel has been doing today is bombing ammunition

1469
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 1: that they already have in the Anes, and that means

1470
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:16,560
Speaker 1: that it's more important than ever that you do what

1471
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 1: you can to support them. If you go to the

1472
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 1: Emergency Committee for a JAVA, you can find them online.

1473
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 1: You find them on all different kinds of social media.

1474
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:26,800
Speaker 1: They have a toolkit for supporting JAVA right now, I

1475
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:29,360
Speaker 1: would urge you if you care about that project, if

1476
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:31,840
Speaker 1: you care about building democracy without the state, care about

1477
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:34,200
Speaker 1: building a place where women and men are equal. And

1478
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 1: the revolution was led by women, it's not a revolution

1479
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:40,360
Speaker 1: that include women, it's revolution by women for women. I

1480
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 1: would encourage you to do what you can to support them.

1481
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:45,639
Speaker 4: All right, yep, that's all.

1482
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:08,400
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Robert Evans here and this is it could

1483
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:11,760
Speaker 2: happen here. Obviously. One of the things that's been happening here,

1484
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:13,840
Speaker 2: probably the biggest story of the last week or so

1485
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:17,559
Speaker 2: at least, is the shooting of United Healthcare CEO Brian

1486
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 2: Thompson by an alleged shooter named Luigi Mangione. Meggione is

1487
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 2: an interesting character. People have had a lot to say

1488
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 2: about him, and so I went through his online footprint,

1489
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:31,920
Speaker 2: everything I can find on his social media, and I

1490
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:35,200
Speaker 2: wrote an article for my substack, shatter Zone, and I'm

1491
01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:38,200
Speaker 2: going to be reading that in a slightly amended form

1492
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:42,519
Speaker 2: for you now as today's episode. I've spent much of

1493
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:45,280
Speaker 2: the last ten years reading manifestos and being a fly

1494
01:15:45,479 --> 01:15:48,840
Speaker 2: on the wall in different little online boltholes where extremists

1495
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 2: plan and seek to incite mass shootings. When Luigi Mangione,

1496
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:56,600
Speaker 2: the suspected shooter of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson, was

1497
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 2: arrested at a McDonald's, it didn't take long for digital

1498
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:03,080
Speaker 2: sleuths to put together a comprehensive record of his online activity.

1499
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:05,360
Speaker 2: I will tell you now that nothing he read or

1500
01:16:05,400 --> 01:16:08,800
Speaker 2: posted explains why he gunned down an insurance executive better

1501
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 2: than this single image in the background of his Twitter

1502
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:14,720
Speaker 2: profile and the images, of course, of an X ray

1503
01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:18,720
Speaker 2: showing four screws in someone's lower base spine, apparently due

1504
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:22,040
Speaker 2: to a lumbar spinal fusion surgery. The day after I

1505
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:24,679
Speaker 2: wrote this article, The New York Times published a piece

1506
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:28,719
Speaker 2: after finding Luigi's read it. The piece by Mike Baker,

1507
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:31,719
Speaker 2: Mike Isaac, and my old boss at Bellancat, Eric Tohller,

1508
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:34,800
Speaker 2: confirms that he had a spinal fusion surgery, that he

1509
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:37,519
Speaker 2: had dealt with back pain for years, which had been

1510
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:40,719
Speaker 2: minor and then gotten much worse after a surfing injury,

1511
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,240
Speaker 2: and had grown even worse after slipping on a piece

1512
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:46,880
Speaker 2: of paper caused persistent problems, including pain when he sat down,

1513
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:49,960
Speaker 2: twitching leg muscles, and numbness in his growing in bladder.

1514
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 2: According to The New York Times, he had that spinal

1515
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:56,240
Speaker 2: fusion surgery, which he had been deeply frightened of ahead

1516
01:16:56,240 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 2: of time, but which resolved those symptoms, and then he

1517
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:02,679
Speaker 2: continued to have other symptoms, probably unrelated to the back pain.

1518
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:05,720
Speaker 2: It's unclear if the back pain came back, but what

1519
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:09,760
Speaker 2: is clear is that he wrote constantly online about pain

1520
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 2: and about his struggles with various other health issues, including

1521
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:15,960
Speaker 2: a persistent brain fog that he seemed unable to get

1522
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,320
Speaker 2: care for. His friend R Jay, who lived with him

1523
01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:22,679
Speaker 2: at an intentional community for digital workers in Honolulu starting

1524
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:26,479
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two, confirms that Luigi suffered an injury

1525
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:29,720
Speaker 2: shortly after taking a basic surfing class after moving there.

1526
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:31,720
Speaker 2: This laid him up in bed for about a week,

1527
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:34,240
Speaker 2: unable to move. His friends had to seek the special

1528
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 2: bed to help him with the pain. In general, we

1529
01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:40,600
Speaker 2: have ample confirmation that he was someone who dealt with

1530
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:43,680
Speaker 2: a series of escalating health issues that changed him from

1531
01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:48,120
Speaker 2: an extremely active, physically fit young man into somebody who

1532
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:50,240
Speaker 2: felt like they were no longer able to do or

1533
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:52,800
Speaker 2: enjoy the things they had previously been able to do

1534
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:55,160
Speaker 2: and enjoy. Now this is most of what we know

1535
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:59,559
Speaker 2: about the health history of Luigi Mangione as of December tenth.

1536
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:02,680
Speaker 2: Now when I record this twenty twenty four. As I

1537
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:05,919
Speaker 2: write this, a purported manifesto is making the rounds online

1538
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:09,200
Speaker 2: which discusses health issues his mother faced. It's still unclear

1539
01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 2: if that manifesto is real. kN Klippenstein has finally gotten

1540
01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 2: access to what he claims is the draft of the

1541
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:20,080
Speaker 2: manifesto that the shooter had on him when he was

1542
01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:23,519
Speaker 2: arrested by the police. I don't know if that's a

1543
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:26,759
Speaker 2: manifesto or something he wrote while nervous, because he largely

1544
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 2: addresses the cops in it and tells them you know

1545
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:32,760
Speaker 2: what to expect when searching him. But again, at the moment,

1546
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:36,840
Speaker 2: this purported manifesto that was also posted on substack, very

1547
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 2: unclear as to whether or not that's real. So for

1548
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:41,719
Speaker 2: this today, we're going to stick with what we can verify,

1549
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:45,120
Speaker 2: and what we can verify is that Luigi Mangione suffered

1550
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 2: from chronic back pain. He had five different books in

1551
01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:51,120
Speaker 2: his Goodreads that he read about dealing with back pain

1552
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 2: and healing from back pain, as well as other chronic

1553
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:57,519
Speaker 2: health issues. If he is the shooter, then we can

1554
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:00,680
Speaker 2: confirm he also chose to act out by targeting and

1555
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:03,439
Speaker 2: insurance CEO. The New York Times has stated that he

1556
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:05,679
Speaker 2: was arrested with a two hundred and sixty two word

1557
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:09,240
Speaker 2: manifesto which has since been leaked, and in that manifesto,

1558
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:12,720
Speaker 2: he describes the executives who run insurance companies as parasites

1559
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:15,240
Speaker 2: who quote continue to abuse our country for I mince

1560
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 2: profit because the American public has allowed them to get

1561
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:20,800
Speaker 2: away with it. In addition to all this, we know

1562
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:24,320
Speaker 2: that Luigi came from a wealthy family. His grandfather made

1563
01:19:24,439 --> 01:19:27,080
Speaker 2: millions running a series of country clubs, nursing homes and

1564
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:30,080
Speaker 2: office buildings and hospitals. One of his cousins is a

1565
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:33,400
Speaker 2: Republican state legislator. It is unclear if Luigi had any

1566
01:19:33,479 --> 01:19:36,160
Speaker 2: access to the family money, but he was clearly financially

1567
01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:38,719
Speaker 2: comfortable enough to move to Hawaii and pay to join

1568
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 2: an intentional community. He had engineering degrees and a promising

1569
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 2: early employment history. This is a man who had options.

1570
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:48,519
Speaker 2: He could have been almost anything he wanted to be,

1571
01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:51,160
Speaker 2: and the thing that he ultimately chose to do with

1572
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:54,639
Speaker 2: his life after suffering a debilitating series of health issues

1573
01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:59,400
Speaker 2: was to shoot the CEO of United Healthcare, Luigi Mangione.

1574
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:13,760
Speaker 2: Radicalized by pain. It's a well known fact that most

1575
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:17,360
Speaker 2: terrorists tend to be radicalized in communities. Much of my

1576
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:20,680
Speaker 2: career was spent watching eight chan turn from an imageboard

1577
01:20:20,760 --> 01:20:24,080
Speaker 2: dedicated into gamer gate into a machine for generating white

1578
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:28,280
Speaker 2: nationalists mass shooters. These people often appeared as lone wolves

1579
01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:31,280
Speaker 2: to the untrained eye, but they were radicalized intentionally in

1580
01:20:31,439 --> 01:20:34,560
Speaker 2: and by a community. Much will be made in the

1581
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:38,000
Speaker 2: coming days and months about Luigi's online footprints. I will

1582
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:40,599
Speaker 2: go into some detail about where he spent his time

1583
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:42,960
Speaker 2: and how we should characterize it, but I want to

1584
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:45,360
Speaker 2: be clear at the outset that his intellectual diet does

1585
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:47,719
Speaker 2: not seem to be what made him choose to take action,

1586
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:50,360
Speaker 2: although it may have influenced the specific kind of action

1587
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:53,559
Speaker 2: he took. Luigi followed a lot of accounts on Twitter

1588
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:56,599
Speaker 2: that are wildly popular with young men, like Joe Rogan.

1589
01:20:56,880 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 2: He listened to Jordan Peterson and Tucker Carlson and agreed

1590
01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:02,559
Speaker 2: with them on certain things, but he also had cogent

1591
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 2: criticisms of their arguments and presentation. Here's what he said

1592
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:09,360
Speaker 2: about Jordan Peterson on May fourteenth. This is why Jordan

1593
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 2: Peterson always bothers me. Overcomplicates everything he says aloud, wasting

1594
01:21:13,280 --> 01:21:16,280
Speaker 2: everyone's mental bandwidth and having to decipher it. The best

1595
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:20,679
Speaker 2: teachers are the best communicators, clear, succinct, simple language, which

1596
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 2: does kind of gel with the fact that he wrote

1597
01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:27,160
Speaker 2: three words on the bullets he used to shoot that Ceo.

1598
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:32,400
Speaker 2: Luigi also expressed frustration with wokeness and expressed opinions common

1599
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:35,080
Speaker 2: on the libertarian tech influenced right, like a belief in

1600
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:40,200
Speaker 2: the social benefits of Christianity, without expressing popular religious beliefs himself.

1601
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:42,559
Speaker 2: I've found one post where he talks about how nature

1602
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:46,120
Speaker 2: abhors a vacuum and shares an article about how Christianity's

1603
01:21:46,120 --> 01:21:50,719
Speaker 2: decline has unleashed terrible new gods. Some of his posts

1604
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:53,760
Speaker 2: took the form of memes typical to online discourse of

1605
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 2: this type, but I've also read an essay that he

1606
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:59,360
Speaker 2: wrote when he was fifteen years old, discussing how Christianity

1607
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:03,120
Speaker 2: persevere over paganism in ancient Rome and that essay exhibits

1608
01:22:03,160 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 2: a long standing interest in this topic and a capacity

1609
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:08,960
Speaker 2: to treat it with nuance. His paper is very well written,

1610
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:12,160
Speaker 2: particularly for a fifteen year old, and while his conclusions

1611
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:15,880
Speaker 2: are highly arguable, it's not the work of someone hopelessly

1612
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:19,880
Speaker 2: brainwashed by culture war bullshit. Luigi liked to think and

1613
01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:23,559
Speaker 2: read and come to his own conclusions. He was interested

1614
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:26,680
Speaker 2: in AI, in cryptocurrency, in life extension, and in a

1615
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:30,960
Speaker 2: constellation of tech bro adjacent attitudes and philosophies often described

1616
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,240
Speaker 2: as the Gray Tribe. I found one post where he

1617
01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:37,439
Speaker 2: talks about a senior speech he gave on the Future

1618
01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:41,840
Speaker 2: quote topics ranging from conscious artificial intelligence to human immortality.

1619
01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:46,040
Speaker 2: The term gray tribe was coined by an influential rationalist

1620
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 2: blogger and psychiatrist named Scott Alexander Siskin. He used it

1621
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:52,479
Speaker 2: to refer to an intersection of nerd culture with Silicon

1622
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:56,960
Speaker 2: Valley influenced ideology descending from the online rationalist movement. This

1623
01:22:57,120 --> 01:23:01,240
Speaker 2: community existed outside of traditional right left eye ideology. Now

1624
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:03,599
Speaker 2: I've not found any evidence that Luigi was a specific

1625
01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:07,040
Speaker 2: fan of Scott, but he expressed appreciation for several figures

1626
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:11,320
Speaker 2: associated with this big tent movement, including Peter Teel. If

1627
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 2: we describe Scott as representing the more liberal flank of

1628
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:17,040
Speaker 2: the Gray Tribe, Luigi seemed to be drawn to folks

1629
01:23:17,200 --> 01:23:20,120
Speaker 2: closer to the right wing side of things. The worst

1630
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:23,520
Speaker 2: person to use this terminology would probably be Teal associate

1631
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:27,559
Speaker 2: Bilaji Shrinivasan, who has used Gray Tribe framework to describe

1632
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:30,920
Speaker 2: his ideal big tech takeover of San Francisco and purging

1633
01:23:30,960 --> 01:23:34,920
Speaker 2: of progressives. However, I must stress that Luigi Mangione never

1634
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 2: expressed any support for this end of the ideology that

1635
01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:41,480
Speaker 2: I can find. He was a young man of libertarian

1636
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:44,080
Speaker 2: inclinations who worked in big tech and had ties to

1637
01:23:44,160 --> 01:23:47,519
Speaker 2: San Francisco, but he was also clearly someone still making

1638
01:23:47,560 --> 01:23:50,519
Speaker 2: his mind up about the world. As information about him

1639
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:52,240
Speaker 2: has come out, I have seen people on the left

1640
01:23:52,280 --> 01:23:55,080
Speaker 2: who initially saw his axis heroic lament that he was

1641
01:23:55,120 --> 01:23:58,759
Speaker 2: a bigoted tech bro. Scott Alexander has been credibly described

1642
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:01,720
Speaker 2: as a eugenic supporter, as have many other people adjacent

1643
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:04,760
Speaker 2: to the strains of rationalism and big tech ideology in

1644
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:09,280
Speaker 2: which Mangione dabbled. Luigia's Twitter account does indeed include weird

1645
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:11,680
Speaker 2: posts from his time in Japan, where he theorizes on

1646
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:14,759
Speaker 2: how to solve falling birth rates by banning pocket pussies

1647
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:18,360
Speaker 2: and video game cafes. At other points, he complains about

1648
01:24:18,400 --> 01:24:23,280
Speaker 2: Japanese citizens acting like quote unquote NPC's but race science

1649
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:25,880
Speaker 2: and eugenics don't seem to have been a focus for him,

1650
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:29,000
Speaker 2: and I would caution anyone against being overly reductive about

1651
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:31,600
Speaker 2: a twenty six year old beliefs based purely on a

1652
01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:34,599
Speaker 2: handful of posts that bear no relation to his actions

1653
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:37,200
Speaker 2: in the world. The evidence that we have of his

1654
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 2: online footprints suggests someone who was not unmoved by certain

1655
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:44,040
Speaker 2: arguments rooted in social justice. He expressed admiration for a

1656
01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:47,839
Speaker 2: quote from Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse five about criminalization of poverty

1657
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:51,519
Speaker 2: in the United States. Quote America is the wealthiest nation

1658
01:24:51,600 --> 01:24:53,600
Speaker 2: in the world, but its people are mainly poor, and

1659
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:56,720
Speaker 2: poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the

1660
01:24:56,760 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 2: American humorist Ken Hubbard, it ain't no disgrace to be poor,

1661
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:02,320
Speaker 2: but it might as well be. It is, in fact

1662
01:25:02,360 --> 01:25:04,599
Speaker 2: a crime for an American to be poor. Even though

1663
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:07,720
Speaker 2: America is a nation of the poor, every other nation

1664
01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:10,080
Speaker 2: has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely

1665
01:25:10,200 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 2: wise and virtuous, and therefore more esteemable than anyone with

1666
01:25:13,280 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 2: power and gold. No such tales are told by the

1667
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 2: American poor. Neluigi is certainly not the idealized leftist icons

1668
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:23,920
Speaker 2: some had hoped, but he doesn't easily fit into any

1669
01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 2: other box. We've got. His interest in gray tribe adjacent

1670
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:30,160
Speaker 2: thinkers and self help books written by productivity hackers like

1671
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:34,000
Speaker 2: Tim Ferriss is incredibly common among young men. Much has

1672
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:35,840
Speaker 2: been made of the four st Hour Review. He gave

1673
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:39,760
Speaker 2: industrial society and its future the manifesto of Ted Kazinski,

1674
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:42,240
Speaker 2: But as with the rest of his media diet, he

1675
01:25:42,320 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 2: did not view Ted through the simple lens of hero worship.

1676
01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:48,599
Speaker 2: Here's what he wrote quote, he was a violent individual,

1677
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:52,760
Speaker 2: rightfully imprisoned, who maimed innocent people. While these actions tend

1678
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:55,120
Speaker 2: to be characterized as those of a crazy Luddite, however

1679
01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:57,400
Speaker 2: they are more accurately seen as those of an extreme

1680
01:25:57,479 --> 01:26:02,760
Speaker 2: political revolutionary. I know those words his condemnation of Kazinsky

1681
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:05,960
Speaker 2: maiming innocent people are not just words, because we have

1682
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:09,080
Speaker 2: seen the attack he allegedly chose to carry out, not

1683
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:12,080
Speaker 2: a series of bombings that killed and maimed innocent people

1684
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:14,960
Speaker 2: with no real power in our society, but a surgical

1685
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 2: strike against a man at the very top of the

1686
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 2: system he hated, and one that caused no collateral damage.

1687
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:23,920
Speaker 2: He was capable of appreciating some of Kazinsky's conclusions, but

1688
01:26:24,080 --> 01:26:26,439
Speaker 2: ultimately the quote he chose to highlight in his review

1689
01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:28,920
Speaker 2: came not from the manifesto, but from a Reddit post

1690
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:32,040
Speaker 2: made by a guy with the user name boss Potatoess,

1691
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:36,320
Speaker 2: who otherwise mostly commented on the Grateful Dead. This post

1692
01:26:36,439 --> 01:26:39,679
Speaker 2: praises Kazinsky for having the balls to realize that peaceful

1693
01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:44,040
Speaker 2: protest has gotten us absolutely nowhere, and complains economic protest

1694
01:26:44,160 --> 01:26:47,679
Speaker 2: isn't possible in the current system. As a result, violence

1695
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:50,599
Speaker 2: against those who lead us to such destruction is justified

1696
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:54,000
Speaker 2: as self defense. Quote. These companies don't care about you,

1697
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:56,719
Speaker 2: or your kids or your grandkids. They have zero qualms

1698
01:26:56,760 --> 01:26:59,160
Speaker 2: about burning down the planet for a buck, so why

1699
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:02,040
Speaker 2: should we have an equalms about burning them down to survive.

1700
01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:05,960
Speaker 2: This is not the kind of radicalization pathway our media

1701
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:09,120
Speaker 2: is good at discussing or analyzing. The things Luigi read

1702
01:27:09,160 --> 01:27:12,280
Speaker 2: and the people he interacted with online absolutely influenced what

1703
01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:15,320
Speaker 2: he did and how but Boss Potatoess is not some

1704
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:17,960
Speaker 2: nazi on eight Chan trying to provoke a shooting spree

1705
01:27:18,040 --> 01:27:20,720
Speaker 2: for the lulls. He's a random dude angry about the

1706
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:23,360
Speaker 2: things seventy percent or more of the country is angry about,

1707
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:25,599
Speaker 2: and he's expressing a lack of faith in a peaceful

1708
01:27:25,640 --> 01:27:28,719
Speaker 2: way forward. If you read this post in its entirety

1709
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:32,320
Speaker 2: as Luigi did, you can't miss the pain there, anxiety

1710
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:34,920
Speaker 2: and horror at the inevitability of climate change and the

1711
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,519
Speaker 2: looming knowledge that everything good and green on this earth

1712
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:40,240
Speaker 2: is being fed into the bloody maw of an industry

1713
01:27:40,320 --> 01:27:44,599
Speaker 2: concerned only with maximizing profit. In more ways than one,

1714
01:27:45,200 --> 01:27:59,679
Speaker 2: Luigi Mangione was radicalized by pain. I know many people

1715
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:02,720
Speaker 2: who suffer with chronic pain and ongoing medical issues. I

1716
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:05,360
Speaker 2: will tell you that it is not uncommon, in dark moments,

1717
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:09,160
Speaker 2: after fruitless, hours long calls about dropped medications or receiving

1718
01:28:09,320 --> 01:28:11,840
Speaker 2: surprise bills, for them to joke about what they'd like

1719
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:15,040
Speaker 2: to do to the executives who run these companies. These

1720
01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:18,519
Speaker 2: are jokes made in moments of despair and pain. No

1721
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:20,960
Speaker 2: one I know would ever act on them, because they

1722
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:23,559
Speaker 2: all have lives. People to care for into whom they

1723
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:26,720
Speaker 2: are responsible, they would never really do anything because the

1724
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:29,759
Speaker 2: consequences to their own loved ones would be so severe.

1725
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:33,200
Speaker 2: In the months before the shooting, Luigi had cut off

1726
01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:36,599
Speaker 2: all contact with his family. He admitted this in court.

1727
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:40,280
Speaker 2: His parents eventually filed a missing's persons report in November

1728
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:42,719
Speaker 2: of this year, and we have evidence that friends tried

1729
01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:45,479
Speaker 2: to contact him on his family's behalf via social media.

1730
01:28:46,320 --> 01:28:49,600
Speaker 2: As was first noted by a Twitter account, Luigi Mangione

1731
01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:53,320
Speaker 2: expressed interest in the works of Paul Scalis, a tech lawyer, writer,

1732
01:28:53,439 --> 01:28:56,720
Speaker 2: and prominent poster who writes about the Lindie effect, a

1733
01:28:56,840 --> 01:28:59,920
Speaker 2: concept that boils down to this the only effective joke

1734
01:29:00,240 --> 01:29:03,439
Speaker 2: of things is time. Scalus is popular among the set

1735
01:29:03,439 --> 01:29:06,599
Speaker 2: of people Magngione found himself drawn towards and writes about

1736
01:29:06,640 --> 01:29:09,240
Speaker 2: the wisdom of ideas from antiquity. It's not hard to

1737
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:12,040
Speaker 2: grasp what a man with an academic interest in ancient

1738
01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:15,639
Speaker 2: realm might see in him. On December fourth, twenty twenty four,

1739
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:18,760
Speaker 2: Paul made this post. Look, if you don't have any

1740
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:20,840
Speaker 2: kids and you want of these guys just floating around

1741
01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:23,200
Speaker 2: the big cities. You got your education, but you never

1742
01:29:23,240 --> 01:29:25,240
Speaker 2: really used it. To make money. You got a dead

1743
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:28,080
Speaker 2: end back office job and a future of just working

1744
01:29:28,200 --> 01:29:31,799
Speaker 2: somewhere until you're seventy five and then dying, Go ahead

1745
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:35,760
Speaker 2: and do something. It's been suggested that this may have

1746
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:38,400
Speaker 2: influenced Luigi, and I think the timeline makes it clear

1747
01:29:38,439 --> 01:29:41,280
Speaker 2: that cannot be the case. Luigia cut off contact with

1748
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:43,479
Speaker 2: his family in most of his friends months before this.

1749
01:29:44,160 --> 01:29:46,360
Speaker 2: The evidence suggests that he had planned this attack for

1750
01:29:46,479 --> 01:29:48,640
Speaker 2: quite some time. He arrived in New York City on

1751
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:51,599
Speaker 2: November twenty fourth, on a bus bound from Atlanta, where

1752
01:29:51,640 --> 01:29:54,559
Speaker 2: he did not reside. So I don't think this post

1753
01:29:54,640 --> 01:29:58,080
Speaker 2: represents a piece of his radicalization journey. Nor was Scalus

1754
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:01,680
Speaker 2: advocating for people to kill CEOs. But the situation in

1755
01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:04,920
Speaker 2: mindset Scallus described does speak to a lot of young

1756
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:08,520
Speaker 2: men like Luigi, young and educated, but without intense responsibilities

1757
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:11,839
Speaker 2: or much hope for the future. This subset of society

1758
01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 2: has always overproduced terrorists, revolutionaries, and of course, mass shooters.

1759
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:21,320
Speaker 2: The United States has a mass shooter culture over the

1760
01:30:21,400 --> 01:30:24,280
Speaker 2: last several decades since Columbine, we have grown used to

1761
01:30:24,360 --> 01:30:26,639
Speaker 2: the idea that people who are angry and no longer

1762
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:29,160
Speaker 2: care if they live or die will sometimes choose to

1763
01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:33,040
Speaker 2: go down killing strangers. In most cases, these shootings are

1764
01:30:33,080 --> 01:30:36,559
Speaker 2: totally random, the victims chosen with no concern beyond maximum

1765
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:41,879
Speaker 2: body count and maximum attention. More recently, especially since twenty nineteen,

1766
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:47,720
Speaker 2: mass shootings have become increasingly politicized. Different extremists, mostly right wing,

1767
01:30:48,160 --> 01:30:50,559
Speaker 2: have used them to put theory into praxis and earned

1768
01:30:50,600 --> 01:30:54,040
Speaker 2: free pr for their causes. Most people abhor these actions,

1769
01:30:54,080 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 2: but we have grown used to the idea that other

1770
01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:58,360
Speaker 2: people will use such acts as a way to spread

1771
01:30:58,439 --> 01:31:02,240
Speaker 2: messages that might otherwise getting gnat It is not coincidental

1772
01:31:02,360 --> 01:31:05,559
Speaker 2: that the white genocide conspiracy theories from Brenton Terrence christ

1773
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:09,880
Speaker 2: Church Manifesto are now mainstream talking points and conservative politics.

1774
01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:13,360
Speaker 2: Luigimanngione grew up with all of this. He would have

1775
01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:15,920
Speaker 2: come to the same conclusions about the role shootings play

1776
01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:19,240
Speaker 2: in our society as any other reasonably aware person. What

1777
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:22,040
Speaker 2: he did, was, of course, not a mass shooting, but

1778
01:31:22,120 --> 01:31:25,400
Speaker 2: the assassination, his actions afterwards, and his possession of a

1779
01:31:25,479 --> 01:31:28,920
Speaker 2: manifesto were all clearly plotted out by someone who knew

1780
01:31:28,920 --> 01:31:31,280
Speaker 2: the social script for how this kind of thing goes

1781
01:31:31,400 --> 01:31:34,760
Speaker 2: in the USA. In the wake of this shooting. Every

1782
01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:37,840
Speaker 2: media organization commenting on it has had to grapple with

1783
01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:41,599
Speaker 2: the waves of public enthusiasm for Luigi's actions. Right wing

1784
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:44,960
Speaker 2: media figures condemning the left for celebrating this assassination have

1785
01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:48,280
Speaker 2: been criticized by their own readers and listeners. Insurance companies

1786
01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:51,000
Speaker 2: have pulled down lists of their executives from the Internet.

1787
01:31:51,800 --> 01:31:54,519
Speaker 2: This is because they too, understand the shooter culture of

1788
01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:57,200
Speaker 2: the United States. Like everyone else, they know that any

1789
01:31:57,280 --> 01:31:59,800
Speaker 2: mass shooting that meets with massive media coverage and in

1790
01:31:59,840 --> 01:32:04,280
Speaker 2: nas trist will spawn copycats. The assassination Luigi is believed

1791
01:32:04,280 --> 01:32:07,080
Speaker 2: to have carried out was new and exciting. It demanded

1792
01:32:07,120 --> 01:32:09,920
Speaker 2: the public's attention in a way that most mass shootings don't.

1793
01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:13,479
Speaker 2: At almost the same time, the United Healthcare CEO was

1794
01:32:13,520 --> 01:32:18,160
Speaker 2: gunned down, a gunman walked into a religious school near Oreville, California,

1795
01:32:18,280 --> 01:32:21,799
Speaker 2: and shot two young children before killing himself. This shooting

1796
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:25,320
Speaker 2: drew almost no national attention. It was entirely drowned out

1797
01:32:25,360 --> 01:32:29,160
Speaker 2: by the execution of an insurance industry ceo. The armed

1798
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:31,360
Speaker 2: and disaffected young men who are most drawn to this

1799
01:32:31,479 --> 01:32:34,679
Speaker 2: sort of thing will not miss this fact. I believe

1800
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:38,639
Speaker 2: Luigi Mangione was radicalized by pain. The shooters who follow

1801
01:32:38,720 --> 01:32:40,519
Speaker 2: him will all have their own reasons for what they

1802
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:43,800
Speaker 2: do for their own journeys to that violent end, but

1803
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:47,800
Speaker 2: ultimately they'll do what they do because Luigi proved it's

1804
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:48,599
Speaker 2: what gets attention.

1805
01:32:49,560 --> 01:33:11,200
Speaker 5: For Now, welcome to it could Happen here, a podcast

1806
01:33:11,240 --> 01:33:15,160
Speaker 5: where I your host Miya Wong, talks about inflation. We

1807
01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:19,200
Speaker 5: have covered inflation on this show extensively, and now it

1808
01:33:19,360 --> 01:33:21,640
Speaker 5: is once again time to return to it as we

1809
01:33:21,720 --> 01:33:24,640
Speaker 5: head into a world where concerns about inflation and the

1810
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:28,880
Speaker 5: economy are the most cited justifications for people voting for

1811
01:33:28,960 --> 01:33:33,040
Speaker 5: one Donald Trump. But unlike our other Oh God, had

1812
01:33:33,120 --> 01:33:36,439
Speaker 5: so many episodes about inflation, this one is going to

1813
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:39,320
Speaker 5: be a bit different. Is going to start out somewhat

1814
01:33:39,360 --> 01:33:41,120
Speaker 5: similar in that I am going to lay out a

1815
01:33:41,320 --> 01:33:45,080
Speaker 5: brief explanation of the sort of material causes of the

1816
01:33:45,120 --> 01:33:48,400
Speaker 5: inflation cycle and talk a bit about inflation theories, which

1817
01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:50,519
Speaker 5: is what we've been largely doing on this show for

1818
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:53,639
Speaker 5: a while. And then I am going to explain why

1819
01:33:54,000 --> 01:33:55,960
Speaker 5: none of that shit mattered, why none of what was

1820
01:33:55,960 --> 01:33:59,120
Speaker 5: actually causing inflation mattered a single bit, because ultimately our

1821
01:33:59,200 --> 01:34:02,799
Speaker 5: experience of inflation and more importantly, of price in general,

1822
01:34:03,320 --> 01:34:05,960
Speaker 5: is based on a sense of justice, or as the

1823
01:34:06,040 --> 01:34:10,519
Speaker 5: academics call it, a moral economy, and not on anything

1824
01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:15,320
Speaker 5: that's sort of going on. So let's begin with what

1825
01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:18,839
Speaker 5: is going on with inflation.

1826
01:34:19,720 --> 01:34:19,880
Speaker 4: Now.

1827
01:34:20,120 --> 01:34:23,360
Speaker 5: As we've discussed before on this show, most economists do

1828
01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:27,200
Speaker 5: not understand why inflation happens. People will take theories. Those

1829
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:30,559
Speaker 5: theories are usually quite bad. There is no mainstream consensus

1830
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:33,200
Speaker 5: on what is going on. As both me and my

1831
01:34:33,320 --> 01:34:36,679
Speaker 5: friends at the magazine Strange Matters have pointed out, former

1832
01:34:36,760 --> 01:34:41,360
Speaker 5: Federal Reserve Governor Daniel Tarulo said quote, the substantive point

1833
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:44,559
Speaker 5: is that we do not at present have a theory

1834
01:34:44,600 --> 01:34:48,680
Speaker 5: of inflation dynamics that work sufficiently well to be of

1835
01:34:48,840 --> 01:34:52,000
Speaker 5: use for the business of real time monetary policy making.

1836
01:34:52,600 --> 01:34:54,960
Speaker 5: So again, this is a guy who used to be

1837
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:58,280
Speaker 5: a Federal Reserve governor who has admitted that they have

1838
01:34:58,360 --> 01:35:00,320
Speaker 5: no idea what the fuck is going on within inflation.

1839
01:35:00,760 --> 01:35:02,639
Speaker 5: Looking at the extent to which people don't know what's

1840
01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:05,200
Speaker 5: going on to inflation and how the various theories simply

1841
01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:09,240
Speaker 5: don't work is a large part of Steve Mann's notes

1842
01:35:09,280 --> 01:35:11,360
Speaker 5: towards the theory of inflation, which is a Strange Matter's

1843
01:35:11,479 --> 01:35:13,080
Speaker 5: article that a lot of this will be pulled from.

1844
01:35:13,240 --> 01:35:15,639
Speaker 5: And we've had Ze on the talk about this before.

1845
01:35:16,479 --> 01:35:19,720
Speaker 5: So there are a lot of theories about inflation, and

1846
01:35:20,280 --> 01:35:23,839
Speaker 5: none of them work very well. Inflation on a fundamental

1847
01:35:23,960 --> 01:35:27,160
Speaker 5: level is just prices going up. People have this tendency

1848
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:29,960
Speaker 5: to think about inflation in terms of the value of

1849
01:35:30,080 --> 01:35:34,639
Speaker 5: money going down, but on a pure level, all inflation

1850
01:35:34,800 --> 01:35:38,880
Speaker 5: says is that prices go up. Now, the most common

1851
01:35:38,960 --> 01:35:42,240
Speaker 5: theory of inflation is inflation is based on there being

1852
01:35:42,280 --> 01:35:44,799
Speaker 5: too much money in the economy. And the thing about

1853
01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:48,200
Speaker 5: those theories is that they don't work outside of like

1854
01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:51,960
Speaker 5: a very few specific examples of hyperinflation that loom large

1855
01:35:52,040 --> 01:35:54,599
Speaker 5: over our understanding of what inflation is, even though they

1856
01:35:54,640 --> 01:35:58,880
Speaker 5: have absolutely quantitatively and theoretically, they have absolutely nothing to

1857
01:35:58,960 --> 01:36:00,720
Speaker 5: do with the inflation that we've seen over the past

1858
01:36:00,800 --> 01:36:04,920
Speaker 5: four years. So instead of talking about that Shaite anymore,

1859
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:08,040
Speaker 5: Man and the Strange Matter's crew developed what they call

1860
01:36:08,160 --> 01:36:10,840
Speaker 5: the supply chain theory of inflation. So I'm going to

1861
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:13,200
Speaker 5: read the quote from Notes Towards the Theory of Inflation.

1862
01:36:14,000 --> 01:36:17,160
Speaker 5: As economist JW. And Mason recently remarked, on his website.

1863
01:36:17,439 --> 01:36:20,519
Speaker 5: Inflation is just an increase in prices. So for every

1864
01:36:20,600 --> 01:36:23,759
Speaker 5: theory of price setting, there's a corresponding theory of inflation.

1865
01:36:24,680 --> 01:36:27,800
Speaker 5: If inflation theory is downstream of price setting, this is

1866
01:36:27,840 --> 01:36:30,519
Speaker 5: still a quote from that article, but not the JW.

1867
01:36:30,680 --> 01:36:34,720
Speaker 5: Maansing quote. If inflation is downstream of price theory, then

1868
01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:37,919
Speaker 5: no account of inflation can begin with the macro economy

1869
01:36:37,960 --> 01:36:41,120
Speaker 5: at all, since prices are set at the micro level. Rather,

1870
01:36:41,520 --> 01:36:45,479
Speaker 5: you need to look at particular industrial sectors, their supply chains,

1871
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:49,320
Speaker 5: and ultimately the pricing decisions of their firms. Only then

1872
01:36:49,439 --> 01:36:52,759
Speaker 5: are the true causes of inflation, both the internal failures

1873
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:55,320
Speaker 5: of the industrial system and external shocks to it which

1874
01:36:55,360 --> 01:37:01,200
Speaker 5: can cause price rises revealed. Man's price theory is fairly simple, right.

1875
01:37:01,360 --> 01:37:03,920
Speaker 5: It flows from the basic observation that prices are set

1876
01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:07,120
Speaker 5: by guys in offices, not by something you know abstract

1877
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:11,559
Speaker 5: as like market forces and supply and demand. In economic terms,

1878
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:14,560
Speaker 5: what this argument amounts to is the argument that corporations

1879
01:37:14,560 --> 01:37:17,800
Speaker 5: are price makers and not price takers. Right, there's a

1880
01:37:17,840 --> 01:37:20,320
Speaker 5: bunch of guys they sit in offices and develop a

1881
01:37:20,360 --> 01:37:22,320
Speaker 5: strategy of but what prices are going to be? And

1882
01:37:22,439 --> 01:37:25,920
Speaker 5: that's you know, how they're set, and what matters to

1883
01:37:25,960 --> 01:37:28,720
Speaker 5: the people who develop prices are things like goodwill, which

1884
01:37:28,760 --> 01:37:31,920
Speaker 5: is to say, not pissing off their customers by raising prices,

1885
01:37:32,520 --> 01:37:34,920
Speaker 5: and things like their balance sheets which reflect, you know,

1886
01:37:35,000 --> 01:37:38,439
Speaker 5: their incomes and costs. Price in this model is just

1887
01:37:38,640 --> 01:37:41,960
Speaker 5: cost plus markup. And we know this is how prices

1888
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:45,160
Speaker 5: are actually set because, as Man points out, people have

1889
01:37:45,320 --> 01:37:48,240
Speaker 5: gone through and done surveys of pricing managers and ask

1890
01:37:48,280 --> 01:37:51,320
Speaker 5: them how they set prices and the answer is costless workup.

1891
01:37:52,400 --> 01:37:56,240
Speaker 5: So what would cause these guys in offices to increase

1892
01:37:56,280 --> 01:38:00,920
Speaker 5: their prices, Well, these are companies that are all part

1893
01:38:01,120 --> 01:38:04,439
Speaker 5: of a global supply chain, a very very broad global

1894
01:38:04,479 --> 01:38:07,760
Speaker 5: supply chain, and a very complicated global supply chain. This

1895
01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:10,439
Speaker 5: means that if the cost of the stuff they buy

1896
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:13,320
Speaker 5: from other suppliers on the chain in order to produce

1897
01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:16,800
Speaker 5: what they're selling, if those prices go up, because there is,

1898
01:38:16,920 --> 01:38:20,360
Speaker 5: to use a purely hypothetical example, a giant global pandemic,

1899
01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:24,720
Speaker 5: those costs increases eventually had to be passed down to

1900
01:38:24,800 --> 01:38:27,559
Speaker 5: the people paying the products, so that the corporation can

1901
01:38:27,600 --> 01:38:29,920
Speaker 5: maintain its balance sheets and maintain its sort of price

1902
01:38:29,960 --> 01:38:33,320
Speaker 5: plus markup as something that you know, covers their costs.

1903
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:33,720
Speaker 1: Right.

1904
01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:37,360
Speaker 5: This is what set off the giant inflation spike in

1905
01:38:37,439 --> 01:38:40,040
Speaker 5: the US and the Biden administration. You know, the cost

1906
01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:41,959
Speaker 5: side of cost plus markup exploded.

1907
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:43,400
Speaker 4: But it doesn't really.

1908
01:38:43,280 --> 01:38:46,640
Speaker 5: Matter why the prices increased for our purposes, and our

1909
01:38:46,680 --> 01:38:49,040
Speaker 5: purposes are looking at sort of why Trump won the election.

1910
01:38:49,720 --> 01:38:53,160
Speaker 5: What was important, you know, about inflation wasn't even the

1911
01:38:53,200 --> 01:38:56,400
Speaker 5: price increases, It was the narratives around inflation and how

1912
01:38:56,479 --> 01:39:00,200
Speaker 5: we understand the economy at a moral level. So that

1913
01:39:00,360 --> 01:39:02,200
Speaker 5: we're going to turn to one of the most popular

1914
01:39:02,240 --> 01:39:07,599
Speaker 5: accounts of inflation, so called greedflation. Now, as we've said,

1915
01:39:08,120 --> 01:39:11,519
Speaker 5: price is cost plus markup, and you can raise prices

1916
01:39:11,920 --> 01:39:14,679
Speaker 5: because of cost, but you can also do this because

1917
01:39:14,680 --> 01:39:18,360
Speaker 5: you want to increase your markup. And this is something

1918
01:39:18,400 --> 01:39:22,439
Speaker 5: that happened during the inflation search. Companies realized that consumers

1919
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:25,479
Speaker 5: were willing to accept higher prices without the usual good

1920
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:28,040
Speaker 5: will hit because they thought the prices were going up

1921
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:30,840
Speaker 5: because inflation was happening, and because they were willing to

1922
01:39:31,040 --> 01:39:33,080
Speaker 5: accept the higher prices and not you know, try to

1923
01:39:33,120 --> 01:39:36,000
Speaker 5: shop somewhere else, corporations went, fuck it, let's just keep

1924
01:39:36,040 --> 01:39:40,160
Speaker 5: jacking the prices up, and this really really pissed people off.

1925
01:39:40,439 --> 01:39:42,479
Speaker 5: It still does, and this is something that was true

1926
01:39:42,520 --> 01:39:44,200
Speaker 5: across the entire political spectrum.

1927
01:39:44,240 --> 01:39:44,360
Speaker 4: Right.

1928
01:39:44,400 --> 01:39:47,439
Speaker 5: People were very, very angry about this sort of reflation thing.

1929
01:39:48,360 --> 01:39:51,799
Speaker 5: And that rage is more important than the technical details

1930
01:39:51,920 --> 01:39:55,960
Speaker 5: of why inflation happened, because the way we understand inflation

1931
01:39:56,320 --> 01:39:59,920
Speaker 5: is not through conventional economics. We understand it through the

1932
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:03,960
Speaker 5: moral economy. And when we come back from a different

1933
01:40:04,080 --> 01:40:06,719
Speaker 5: kind of economy, which is to say, this ad break,

1934
01:40:07,040 --> 01:40:09,600
Speaker 5: we are going to examine what the moral economy is,

1935
01:40:09,840 --> 01:40:12,280
Speaker 5: how it differs from our sort of regular economy, where

1936
01:40:12,320 --> 01:40:16,160
Speaker 5: it came from, and why it's relevant to our situation now.

1937
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:30,960
Speaker 5: And we are so back, all right, let's talk about

1938
01:40:31,040 --> 01:40:35,360
Speaker 5: the moral economy. The moral economy is a concept developed

1939
01:40:35,400 --> 01:40:38,280
Speaker 5: by the British historian E. P. Thompson in the early

1940
01:40:38,400 --> 01:40:42,599
Speaker 5: nineteen seventies. Thompson was attempting to explain the previous century

1941
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:44,719
Speaker 5: and a half of bread riots by what he termed

1942
01:40:44,880 --> 01:40:49,639
Speaker 5: the English crowd by applying anthropological principles to their actions.

1943
01:40:50,120 --> 01:40:52,400
Speaker 5: I'm just going to read from Thompson's The Moral Economy

1944
01:40:52,439 --> 01:40:55,439
Speaker 5: of the English Crowd here. It is, of course true

1945
01:40:55,520 --> 01:40:58,920
Speaker 5: that riots were triggered off by soaring prices, by malpractice

1946
01:40:58,960 --> 01:41:03,200
Speaker 5: among dealers, or by hunger. But these grievances operated within

1947
01:41:03,280 --> 01:41:06,760
Speaker 5: a popular consensus as to what we're legitimate and what

1948
01:41:06,840 --> 01:41:11,560
Speaker 5: we're illegitimate practices in marketing, milling, baking, et cetera. This,

1949
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:15,320
Speaker 5: in its turn, was grounded upon a consistent traditional view

1950
01:41:15,479 --> 01:41:19,360
Speaker 5: of social norms and obligations of the proper economic function

1951
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:23,559
Speaker 5: of several parties within the community, which, when taken together,

1952
01:41:24,320 --> 01:41:27,080
Speaker 5: can be said to constitute the moral economy of the poor.

1953
01:41:27,720 --> 01:41:30,720
Speaker 5: In outrage to these moral assumptions, quite as much as

1954
01:41:30,800 --> 01:41:35,240
Speaker 5: actual deprivation was the usual occasion for direct action. Now,

1955
01:41:35,520 --> 01:41:37,880
Speaker 5: the moral economy of the English crowd in the eighteenth

1956
01:41:37,920 --> 01:41:40,599
Speaker 5: century is about a very specific period in British history,

1957
01:41:40,600 --> 01:41:43,599
Speaker 5: which is to say, the seventeen hundreds, and about how

1958
01:41:43,720 --> 01:41:47,160
Speaker 5: people thought bread should be sold. Peasants and the new

1959
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:52,640
Speaker 5: urban workers had very specific ideas about bread, about how

1960
01:41:52,680 --> 01:41:54,880
Speaker 5: bread should be produced, about who should be allowed to

1961
01:41:54,920 --> 01:41:57,040
Speaker 5: sell it, about where and when they should be allowed

1962
01:41:57,040 --> 01:41:58,840
Speaker 5: to sell it, about how it should be sold, how.

1963
01:41:58,800 --> 01:41:59,840
Speaker 4: It should not be sold.

1964
01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:02,879
Speaker 5: And because of this, you know, because of their experience

1965
01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:05,600
Speaker 5: in sort of previous systems, that before the sort of

1966
01:42:05,720 --> 01:42:08,800
Speaker 5: imposition of the free market system or quote unquote free

1967
01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:13,360
Speaker 5: market system. They have a very specific series of hatreds.

1968
01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:16,920
Speaker 5: They hate middlemen, they hate grainhoarders, they hate all of

1969
01:42:17,000 --> 01:42:19,680
Speaker 5: the aspects of the new quote unquote free market that

1970
01:42:19,800 --> 01:42:23,679
Speaker 5: impose additional costs and burdens on them. And they also

1971
01:42:23,840 --> 01:42:28,160
Speaker 5: believed that elites have a kind of moral duty to

1972
01:42:28,280 --> 01:42:31,000
Speaker 5: the masses based on the norms and traditions of their society.

1973
01:42:31,479 --> 01:42:33,280
Speaker 5: And when they welch on that deal in a way

1974
01:42:33,320 --> 01:42:37,360
Speaker 5: that makes people's lives worse, people get extremely pissed off.

1975
01:42:38,080 --> 01:42:42,759
Speaker 5: These peasants, and you know, urban workers particularly hated price increases,

1976
01:42:43,000 --> 01:42:45,639
Speaker 5: and they hated price increases so much that this frequently

1977
01:42:45,720 --> 01:42:50,479
Speaker 5: turned into riots. But the actual contents of these riots

1978
01:42:50,560 --> 01:42:54,599
Speaker 5: are very interesting. Instead of simply seizing all of the grain,

1979
01:42:55,040 --> 01:42:58,160
Speaker 5: they do something else entirely. Here's Thompson again.

1980
01:42:58,439 --> 01:42:58,759
Speaker 4: Quote.

1981
01:42:58,960 --> 01:43:01,599
Speaker 5: The central action in this pattern is not the sack

1982
01:43:01,680 --> 01:43:04,560
Speaker 5: of grainaries in grain or flour, but the action of

1983
01:43:04,680 --> 01:43:08,360
Speaker 5: quote setting the price. From a few lines later, they

1984
01:43:08,439 --> 01:43:11,880
Speaker 5: might then order the farmer just end quote convenient quantities

1985
01:43:11,960 --> 01:43:14,639
Speaker 5: to market to be sold quote and at a quote

1986
01:43:14,680 --> 01:43:19,160
Speaker 5: reasonable price. The justices were further empowered to quote set

1987
01:43:19,240 --> 01:43:21,679
Speaker 5: down a certain price upon a bushel of every kind

1988
01:43:21,720 --> 01:43:25,000
Speaker 5: of grain. So, if you follow this here, right, what's

1989
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:27,559
Speaker 5: happening in these British bread riots is that the revolt

1990
01:43:27,800 --> 01:43:32,000
Speaker 5: isn't just about their you know, being a price to grain.

1991
01:43:32,560 --> 01:43:35,920
Speaker 5: It's that people have a very very specific moral understanding

1992
01:43:36,040 --> 01:43:39,080
Speaker 5: of what the price of grain should be, and they

1993
01:43:39,160 --> 01:43:42,320
Speaker 5: take direct actions that are designed to set the price

1994
01:43:42,400 --> 01:43:44,720
Speaker 5: of grain to the level they thought it should rest at.

1995
01:43:45,320 --> 01:43:48,800
Speaker 5: And this kind of action is extremely common sort of

1996
01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:52,439
Speaker 5: across Europe in this entire time period. Right, it's also

1997
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:55,920
Speaker 5: a hallmark of the French Revolution. You can see in

1998
01:43:56,160 --> 01:43:58,160
Speaker 5: this right, in this sort of rage of a price

1999
01:43:58,280 --> 01:44:01,280
Speaker 5: in the sense of justice, the outlines of our current

2000
01:44:01,320 --> 01:44:05,719
Speaker 5: moral economy. You have, you know, staggering outrage's price inclerease

2001
01:44:05,800 --> 01:44:08,439
Speaker 5: is seen as on jests, which is reflation or just

2002
01:44:08,520 --> 01:44:11,360
Speaker 5: inflation in general, because people are just mad about the

2003
01:44:11,400 --> 01:44:14,439
Speaker 5: concept of the price going up, paired with rage at

2004
01:44:14,439 --> 01:44:16,599
Speaker 5: the elites, which manifests the sort of hatred of Joe

2005
01:44:16,640 --> 01:44:19,240
Speaker 5: Biden the Democrats for being the people who presided over

2006
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:23,080
Speaker 5: these price increases. We also have our own rage about

2007
01:44:23,120 --> 01:44:26,559
Speaker 5: price gouging in immediate market terms. And this is something

2008
01:44:26,760 --> 01:44:29,560
Speaker 5: that the most annoying libertarians and the defenders of the

2009
01:44:29,640 --> 01:44:32,720
Speaker 5: market love to point out. There's nothing actually wrong by

2010
01:44:32,800 --> 01:44:36,720
Speaker 5: market economics about say Martin Skrelly jacking the price of

2011
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:39,800
Speaker 5: medicine up until you can't afford it anymore, or you know,

2012
01:44:39,960 --> 01:44:43,880
Speaker 5: other things that we find extremely terrible, like people jacking

2013
01:44:43,960 --> 01:44:46,920
Speaker 5: the price of water when people need water, like bottled

2014
01:44:46,960 --> 01:44:51,080
Speaker 5: water dreat hurricanes. We are all outraged, So why do

2015
01:44:51,200 --> 01:44:54,080
Speaker 5: we feel morally strong about it? And that is the

2016
01:44:54,200 --> 01:44:57,200
Speaker 5: moral economy. Maybe this is something that you know, these

2017
01:44:57,320 --> 01:44:59,519
Speaker 5: these reactions, right, the emotional reactions we have to this,

2018
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:03,120
Speaker 5: the sense of injustice that we feel, are almost entirely

2019
01:45:03,360 --> 01:45:06,760
Speaker 5: outside of the realm of what you would call traditional economics, right,

2020
01:45:07,320 --> 01:45:09,880
Speaker 5: And that's because we're functioning on something that is, in

2021
01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:13,479
Speaker 5: some senses older than that kind of economics. But there's

2022
01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:18,000
Speaker 5: something else going on here at a fundamental level. And

2023
01:45:18,400 --> 01:45:21,720
Speaker 5: what's important about you know, price and the reaction to

2024
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:24,920
Speaker 5: inflation is that it's an outrage based on a sense

2025
01:45:24,960 --> 01:45:25,679
Speaker 5: of justice.

2026
01:45:25,840 --> 01:45:25,960
Speaker 2: Right.

2027
01:45:26,120 --> 01:45:29,200
Speaker 4: This rage is not a measure of direct.

2028
01:45:28,960 --> 01:45:32,400
Speaker 5: Exploitation necessarily, I think it was the political scientist James C.

2029
01:45:32,520 --> 01:45:35,360
Speaker 5: Scott who wrote his own book called The Moral Economy

2030
01:45:35,400 --> 01:45:38,720
Speaker 5: of the Peasant, and Scott argues that, you know, and

2031
01:45:39,000 --> 01:45:42,360
Speaker 5: ib Thompson also argues this that it's the moral angle

2032
01:45:42,439 --> 01:45:45,680
Speaker 5: that causes people to revolt, not the direct level of exploitation.

2033
01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:49,240
Speaker 5: You can, in fact, you know, inflict hideous exploitation on

2034
01:45:49,320 --> 01:45:52,600
Speaker 5: people as long as they think that it's just. But

2035
01:45:52,680 --> 01:45:56,360
Speaker 5: when you violate these moral principles, that's when people really

2036
01:45:56,439 --> 01:45:59,640
Speaker 5: lose it. But it also means, right, the fact that

2037
01:45:59,840 --> 01:46:04,400
Speaker 5: the sense of outrage is not necessarily directly tied to

2038
01:46:04,760 --> 01:46:07,479
Speaker 5: the exploitation level. It means that rich people could be

2039
01:46:07,520 --> 01:46:10,439
Speaker 5: bad about inflation even though they're completely fine, because these

2040
01:46:10,479 --> 01:46:13,320
Speaker 5: people also still have this sort of sense of justice

2041
01:46:13,320 --> 01:46:17,200
Speaker 5: about what prices should be. Now, it's also worth noting

2042
01:46:17,280 --> 01:46:20,040
Speaker 5: here that it is possible to have high inflation rates

2043
01:46:20,080 --> 01:46:23,080
Speaker 5: and have everyone be fine. In fact, we have discussed

2044
01:46:23,080 --> 01:46:26,920
Speaker 5: scenarios like that on this show. In my episodes about

2045
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:29,000
Speaker 5: the rise of Lulah of the current president of Brazil,

2046
01:46:29,479 --> 01:46:33,440
Speaker 5: we discussed how military dictatorship in Brazil produced an economy

2047
01:46:33,680 --> 01:46:37,320
Speaker 5: that was you know, you had twenty percent on year inflation, right,

2048
01:46:37,600 --> 01:46:40,120
Speaker 5: but also you had forty percent yearly wage increases, and

2049
01:46:40,160 --> 01:46:42,519
Speaker 5: so everyone was like kind of fine with it because

2050
01:46:42,600 --> 01:46:44,120
Speaker 5: the amount of money you were making was going up

2051
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:46,880
Speaker 5: every year, So nobody really cared about even things like

2052
01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:49,360
Speaker 5: the military dictatorship itself. There was not an enormous amount

2053
01:46:49,360 --> 01:46:52,519
Speaker 5: of opposition to it. But then Brazil's trade unions figured

2054
01:46:52,560 --> 01:46:55,519
Speaker 5: out the government had been lying about inflation numbers, and

2055
01:46:55,960 --> 01:46:57,680
Speaker 5: this started off a series of protests that you know,

2056
01:46:57,720 --> 01:47:00,840
Speaker 5: would send Lula like into his blame his political career,

2057
01:47:00,880 --> 01:47:03,320
Speaker 5: and eventually this is one of the sort of dominoes

2058
01:47:03,360 --> 01:47:07,479
Speaker 5: that leads to knocking down the military dictatorship. And that's

2059
01:47:07,560 --> 01:47:10,000
Speaker 5: because you know, the level of exploitations people were living

2060
01:47:10,080 --> 01:47:14,200
Speaker 5: ut or hadn't changed. But the deal that they had made, right,

2061
01:47:14,320 --> 01:47:16,519
Speaker 5: the sort of deal with the military government of like,

2062
01:47:16,600 --> 01:47:18,880
Speaker 5: we won't do anything, our wages will continue to go up,

2063
01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:21,160
Speaker 5: and inflation will continue to work at a certain level

2064
01:47:21,600 --> 01:47:25,679
Speaker 5: such that we're still getting paid. That deal was violated,

2065
01:47:25,760 --> 01:47:29,280
Speaker 5: and that sense of injustice was powerful enough to really

2066
01:47:29,479 --> 01:47:34,000
Speaker 5: kickstart in extremely powerful Brazilian labor movements and kickstart at

2067
01:47:34,000 --> 01:47:38,320
Speaker 5: the fall of a dictatorship. Now, one of Thompson's arguments

2068
01:47:38,439 --> 01:47:40,519
Speaker 5: was that the success of Adam Smith and his Cohort,

2069
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:43,240
Speaker 5: and Smith is moving around and making his arguments about

2070
01:47:43,280 --> 01:47:45,360
Speaker 5: what the free market is in the period where we're

2071
01:47:45,360 --> 01:47:48,360
Speaker 5: dealing with all of these sort of grand crises. His

2072
01:47:48,560 --> 01:47:52,240
Speaker 5: argument is that the success of Smith was moving economics

2073
01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:54,280
Speaker 5: out of the domain of morality where it was born.

2074
01:47:54,360 --> 01:47:57,880
Speaker 5: Economics was originally an aspect of moral philosophy, right, it

2075
01:47:58,000 --> 01:48:00,960
Speaker 5: was part of that discipline. But you know, Smith and

2076
01:48:00,960 --> 01:48:02,880
Speaker 5: as people move it out. And this is why liberal

2077
01:48:02,920 --> 01:48:07,120
Speaker 5: economists find the anger about inflation so incomprehensible. They see

2078
01:48:07,160 --> 01:48:09,240
Speaker 5: it in purely statistical terms and go like, look, the

2079
01:48:09,320 --> 01:48:12,720
Speaker 5: economy is great. Why is everyone mad? And you know,

2080
01:48:12,920 --> 01:48:15,519
Speaker 5: I could get into hear a bunch of arguments about

2081
01:48:15,520 --> 01:48:17,599
Speaker 5: whether or not this is actually true. I mean, I'm

2082
01:48:17,640 --> 01:48:21,360
Speaker 5: going to return to by sort of classic argument about like, well, yeah, okay,

2083
01:48:22,040 --> 01:48:24,200
Speaker 5: even if you believe all of the economic indicators are

2084
01:48:24,200 --> 01:48:27,439
Speaker 5: great versas people like I'm trans for me, the economy

2085
01:48:27,680 --> 01:48:31,080
Speaker 5: is it has an unemployment rate of like nineteen thirty

2086
01:48:31,120 --> 01:48:34,160
Speaker 5: six US great depression. So you know, there are a

2087
01:48:34,160 --> 01:48:36,320
Speaker 5: lot of people for whom the economic outlook is not good.

2088
01:48:36,439 --> 01:48:38,680
Speaker 5: People for whom you know, even the wage increases that

2089
01:48:38,680 --> 01:48:40,960
Speaker 5: they got in this period still leave them in sort

2090
01:48:41,000 --> 01:48:44,200
Speaker 5: of hideous and crippling poverty. And none of that shit

2091
01:48:44,400 --> 01:48:47,160
Speaker 5: matters because the statistics that these people are trying to

2092
01:48:47,240 --> 01:48:49,599
Speaker 5: use to try to get everyone to calm down are

2093
01:48:49,720 --> 01:48:52,200
Speaker 5: not operating in the inside of the moral economy. They're

2094
01:48:52,200 --> 01:48:54,360
Speaker 5: operating outside of it because they're from a tradition that

2095
01:48:54,479 --> 01:48:58,080
Speaker 5: is specifically about not working inside the moral economy, and

2096
01:48:58,120 --> 01:49:00,559
Speaker 5: the people that're interacting with are in the world economy.

2097
01:49:01,560 --> 01:49:05,040
Speaker 4: But why is it like this, right? Why do we

2098
01:49:05,280 --> 01:49:06,200
Speaker 4: have a moral.

2099
01:49:06,000 --> 01:49:09,040
Speaker 5: Economy that functions this way in the case of the

2100
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:11,080
Speaker 5: peasants and you know, the working people of the seventeen

2101
01:49:11,160 --> 01:49:13,080
Speaker 5: hundreds across Europe, and you know this just goes on

2102
01:49:13,160 --> 01:49:15,600
Speaker 5: through the eighteen hundreds too. Right, we can trace the

2103
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:18,680
Speaker 5: moral economy to a very very specific set of conditions

2104
01:49:18,720 --> 01:49:22,479
Speaker 5: and traditions and expectations rooted in how people traditionally bop bread.

2105
01:49:23,320 --> 01:49:27,439
Speaker 5: But what are the conditions of the modern American moral economy?

2106
01:49:28,600 --> 01:49:31,240
Speaker 5: To understand that, we need to turn to the concept

2107
01:49:31,320 --> 01:49:35,000
Speaker 5: of price itself. But first, do you know what guarantees

2108
01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:37,679
Speaker 5: low price? Actually, I probably shouldn't say the word guarantee,

2109
01:49:37,720 --> 01:49:41,080
Speaker 5: That is probably staggeringly illegible. You know what probably has

2110
01:49:41,160 --> 01:49:45,040
Speaker 5: low prices. It's the products and services that support this podcast.

2111
01:49:55,720 --> 01:49:58,160
Speaker 4: We are back.

2112
01:50:00,240 --> 01:50:06,160
Speaker 5: Now turn to price. The political economist Shimsheng Bickler and

2113
01:50:06,320 --> 01:50:09,439
Speaker 5: Jonathan Needson argue that price is the unit of what

2114
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:12,840
Speaker 5: orders capitalist society. You know, price is like the fundamental

2115
01:50:13,080 --> 01:50:15,559
Speaker 5: unit of political economy. It's it's the thing that orders

2116
01:50:15,600 --> 01:50:18,120
Speaker 5: and structures the entire society. If you want to know

2117
01:50:18,320 --> 01:50:22,000
Speaker 5: more about this, read their book Capitalist Power. It's quite good.

2118
01:50:22,720 --> 01:50:26,479
Speaker 5: I am mentioning them because I'm about to misuse their

2119
01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:29,120
Speaker 5: argument completely in tandem with a quote from Marx that

2120
01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:31,000
Speaker 5: I am also about to misuse. And I am going

2121
01:50:31,040 --> 01:50:34,760
Speaker 5: to do this to make a different point. So I

2122
01:50:34,960 --> 01:50:37,920
Speaker 5: agree with Bickler and needs in that price is the

2123
01:50:38,080 --> 01:50:41,320
Speaker 5: unit that orders capitalist society. But what I'm interested in

2124
01:50:42,280 --> 01:50:46,000
Speaker 5: is price is what's called a social hieroglyphic. Now, social

2125
01:50:46,080 --> 01:50:49,240
Speaker 5: hieroglyphic is a term that's a one off term that

2126
01:50:49,360 --> 01:50:52,839
Speaker 5: Marx used wants to talk about how price like mystifies

2127
01:50:52,880 --> 01:50:53,679
Speaker 5: at hure value.

2128
01:50:53,840 --> 01:50:54,120
Speaker 2: Whatever.

2129
01:50:54,720 --> 01:50:57,280
Speaker 5: I don't care about that. I care about it because

2130
01:50:58,200 --> 01:51:00,920
Speaker 5: there's something very interesting about price itself, and there's something

2131
01:51:00,960 --> 01:51:04,680
Speaker 5: interesting about the notion of a hieroglyph Now March is

2132
01:51:04,760 --> 01:51:06,600
Speaker 5: using hieroglyph in the term of like it's something you

2133
01:51:06,680 --> 01:51:08,320
Speaker 5: have to be decoded, right, because he's writing in the

2134
01:51:08,320 --> 01:51:08,960
Speaker 5: eighteen hundreds.

2135
01:51:09,040 --> 01:51:10,680
Speaker 4: This is you know, everyone's obsessed with hieroglyphs.

2136
01:51:11,360 --> 01:51:14,439
Speaker 5: I am using hieroglyphs because hieroglyphs are also a method

2137
01:51:14,520 --> 01:51:17,360
Speaker 5: of encoding complex information into a single character.

2138
01:51:17,800 --> 01:51:17,960
Speaker 1: Right.

2139
01:51:18,960 --> 01:51:23,040
Speaker 5: Price as a social hieroglyph is important because price is

2140
01:51:23,120 --> 01:51:26,040
Speaker 5: the mechanism through which we understand and often through which

2141
01:51:26,040 --> 01:51:27,639
Speaker 5: we fail to understand the world.

2142
01:51:28,479 --> 01:51:29,879
Speaker 4: Our entire lives.

2143
01:51:30,439 --> 01:51:32,360
Speaker 5: In the eyes of the people who rule this world,

2144
01:51:32,479 --> 01:51:36,040
Speaker 5: our entire lives are captured in a single number. Everything

2145
01:51:36,120 --> 01:51:38,640
Speaker 5: you do at work is ultimately just a price on

2146
01:51:38,720 --> 01:51:42,560
Speaker 5: a corporate spreadsheet. The entirety of the labor process of

2147
01:51:42,640 --> 01:51:46,080
Speaker 5: producing a good, every hour worked, every drop of sweat,

2148
01:51:46,360 --> 01:51:49,200
Speaker 5: every tier, every broken body, and shattered city and trade

2149
01:51:49,280 --> 01:51:51,200
Speaker 5: union is lined up in front of a firing squad,

2150
01:51:51,720 --> 01:51:56,320
Speaker 5: appears in the end as a simple number price. To

2151
01:51:56,439 --> 01:51:59,080
Speaker 5: express it another way, heals Daniel conn At the painted

2152
01:51:59,120 --> 01:52:02,880
Speaker 5: bird from their the butcher's share. Let's take a walk

2153
01:52:02,960 --> 01:52:06,080
Speaker 5: around the old bizarre, where every little thing has trafficed far.

2154
01:52:07,040 --> 01:52:09,720
Speaker 5: Every pair of pants and grain of rice contains this

2155
01:52:09,960 --> 01:52:13,360
Speaker 5: poorer story in its price, a story of the power

2156
01:52:13,439 --> 01:52:18,040
Speaker 5: people wield, a story about factories and fields, a story

2157
01:52:18,160 --> 01:52:20,760
Speaker 5: of which you'll never have to be aware, just as

2158
01:52:20,840 --> 01:52:25,200
Speaker 5: long as the butcher gets his share. Price, this single

2159
01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:31,080
Speaker 5: number is how we understand the world, and it causes

2160
01:52:31,200 --> 01:52:34,559
Speaker 5: us to treat price and thus inflation, as a matter

2161
01:52:34,680 --> 01:52:38,800
Speaker 5: of morality and not economic rationality, because price is the

2162
01:52:38,960 --> 01:52:42,519
Speaker 5: way that our society causes us to interact with people.

2163
01:52:42,720 --> 01:52:45,000
Speaker 5: It's the way we interact with objects. It is the

2164
01:52:45,080 --> 01:52:48,000
Speaker 5: thing that structures the way we all behave and understand

2165
01:52:48,280 --> 01:52:55,280
Speaker 5: the world. But price has another function. It is the

2166
01:52:55,439 --> 01:53:00,439
Speaker 5: gatekeeper of capitalist society. Because price and a man with

2167
01:53:00,560 --> 01:53:04,160
Speaker 5: a gun is what's standing between you and the ability

2168
01:53:04,240 --> 01:53:07,439
Speaker 5: to live your life. Outrage of the moral economics of

2169
01:53:07,520 --> 01:53:11,800
Speaker 5: price increases are similar, but not identical, to the impulses

2170
01:53:11,840 --> 01:53:15,800
Speaker 5: behind looting. Everything that you ever need and have been

2171
01:53:15,960 --> 01:53:19,639
Speaker 5: unable to get is when you walk into a grocery store,

2172
01:53:20,200 --> 01:53:23,280
Speaker 5: just sitting there right in front of you, but between

2173
01:53:23,400 --> 01:53:26,000
Speaker 5: you and it is a number and a man with

2174
01:53:26,080 --> 01:53:29,120
Speaker 5: a gun, and the man with a gun fucking hates you.

2175
01:53:29,960 --> 01:53:33,519
Speaker 5: So the moment you're free, you just take it. Price

2176
01:53:33,840 --> 01:53:37,880
Speaker 5: in the entire economic system behind it is organized very specifically,

2177
01:53:37,960 --> 01:53:41,800
Speaker 5: so you don't do this. E. P. Thompson argued that

2178
01:53:41,880 --> 01:53:45,200
Speaker 5: the moral economy was pre political. The movements that it

2179
01:53:45,280 --> 01:53:48,920
Speaker 5: produced could be extremely well organized, but they fundamentally were

2180
01:53:49,000 --> 01:53:51,800
Speaker 5: not the real movement which abolishes the present state of things.

2181
01:53:53,040 --> 01:53:56,760
Speaker 5: In twenty twenty, we for a brief moment saw the

2182
01:53:56,840 --> 01:54:01,599
Speaker 5: outlines of that movement. The uprising was crushed in its place.

2183
01:54:01,760 --> 01:54:05,479
Speaker 5: We saw the emergence of pre political concerns about price.

2184
01:54:05,800 --> 01:54:05,960
Speaker 2: Right.

2185
01:54:06,160 --> 01:54:09,320
Speaker 5: We saw once again a massive panic about inflation. And

2186
01:54:09,439 --> 01:54:11,519
Speaker 5: this is not to say that you know, inflation didn't

2187
01:54:11,600 --> 01:54:12,080
Speaker 5: hurt people.

2188
01:54:12,240 --> 01:54:12,559
Speaker 2: It did.

2189
01:54:12,720 --> 01:54:16,240
Speaker 5: It was in large extents of fiasco. But look at

2190
01:54:16,360 --> 01:54:18,840
Speaker 5: the politics for a moment that this has produced. Right,

2191
01:54:19,439 --> 01:54:22,160
Speaker 5: What the media understands is economic anxiety, and what I

2192
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:25,240
Speaker 5: think we can now better understand as the moral economy

2193
01:54:25,360 --> 01:54:27,400
Speaker 5: that is a result of the fact that our entire

2194
01:54:27,439 --> 01:54:30,439
Speaker 5: economic system is structured by price, and that we encode

2195
01:54:30,479 --> 01:54:33,960
Speaker 5: all of the information in our life into prices that

2196
01:54:34,040 --> 01:54:36,120
Speaker 5: we sell ourselves for, and that we in turn are

2197
01:54:36,200 --> 01:54:41,240
Speaker 5: sold things for those prices going up. The product of

2198
01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:45,760
Speaker 5: it was Trump, right, and there's I think a reason

2199
01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:49,200
Speaker 5: why these sort of pre economic explanations are preferred to

2200
01:54:49,440 --> 01:54:51,640
Speaker 5: the answers and you know, to the actions that people

2201
01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:55,560
Speaker 5: saw in twenty twenty four years later. Portland, one of

2202
01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:59,240
Speaker 5: the centers of the uprising, now has almost every grocery

2203
01:54:59,280 --> 01:55:02,480
Speaker 5: store the exit of it is armed guards with guns.

2204
01:55:03,480 --> 01:55:05,880
Speaker 5: And these guards are there to maintain the price system.

2205
01:55:06,560 --> 01:55:09,680
Speaker 5: They're there because for a very brief moment, people started

2206
01:55:09,720 --> 01:55:14,200
Speaker 5: thinking something dangerous. They started thinking, what if this didn't

2207
01:55:14,240 --> 01:55:14,840
Speaker 5: have a price?

2208
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:37,200
Speaker 4: It's it could happen here.

2209
01:55:37,320 --> 01:55:40,440
Speaker 5: The podcast that's happening right now, this is maybe the

2210
01:55:40,560 --> 01:55:44,320
Speaker 5: foremost of the Putting Things Back Together episodes. I'm your

2211
01:55:44,360 --> 01:55:47,160
Speaker 5: host Miya Wong with me as James Stout guy. He

2212
01:55:47,360 --> 01:55:49,960
Speaker 5: likes it to put things together. Yeah, and you know,

2213
01:55:50,360 --> 01:55:53,880
Speaker 5: on the subject of putting things together over the last

2214
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:56,800
Speaker 5: I don't even know three four weeks, the question I

2215
01:55:56,840 --> 01:56:00,520
Speaker 5: have been asked the most by everyone is how do

2216
01:56:00,680 --> 01:56:05,240
Speaker 5: I start organizing? And you know the problem with how

2217
01:56:05,280 --> 01:56:07,720
Speaker 5: do I start organizing is that it's not a question

2218
01:56:07,920 --> 01:56:11,720
Speaker 5: that has cleaner, simple answers. Now, the most common answer

2219
01:56:11,800 --> 01:56:14,200
Speaker 5: you get is just join an org. And the problem

2220
01:56:14,320 --> 01:56:15,800
Speaker 5: is that most of the people who you were hearing

2221
01:56:15,880 --> 01:56:17,960
Speaker 5: this from are already in an org. And want you

2222
01:56:18,040 --> 01:56:19,120
Speaker 5: to join their org.

2223
01:56:19,800 --> 01:56:20,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2224
01:56:20,840 --> 01:56:22,680
Speaker 1: Also, the problem is a lot of the orgs that

2225
01:56:22,720 --> 01:56:25,720
Speaker 1: are currently dominating left to spaces in the in the

2226
01:56:25,840 --> 01:56:26,760
Speaker 1: United States.

2227
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:31,200
Speaker 4: Are trash, yeah, and bad for people, bad people in them,

2228
01:56:31,240 --> 01:56:32,680
Speaker 4: bad people who are not in them. Yeah.

2229
01:56:32,920 --> 01:56:35,120
Speaker 1: Here's a little test you can you can do. Is

2230
01:56:35,240 --> 01:56:38,480
Speaker 1: your org currently sad that Basha a Lasad is no

2231
01:56:38,720 --> 01:56:41,480
Speaker 1: longer governing Syria? Because if that's the case.

2232
01:56:41,760 --> 01:56:43,240
Speaker 4: Leave yep.

2233
01:56:43,560 --> 01:56:46,360
Speaker 5: And that's that's a lot of orgs that that's not Yeah,

2234
01:56:46,400 --> 01:56:48,640
Speaker 5: that takes most of them right now. We'll come back

2235
01:56:48,760 --> 01:56:51,960
Speaker 5: to orgs in a bit. But what I'll say about

2236
01:56:52,080 --> 01:56:55,600
Speaker 5: orgs is that, Okay, if you know an organization in

2237
01:56:55,840 --> 01:56:58,080
Speaker 5: your area that you like and you think does good

2238
01:56:58,120 --> 01:57:00,960
Speaker 5: work and most importantly spends their time actually doing work

2239
01:57:01,080 --> 01:57:03,720
Speaker 5: instead of either in fighting or talking about doing work,

2240
01:57:04,280 --> 01:57:06,200
Speaker 5: you join them. It will be good. But the important

2241
01:57:06,200 --> 01:57:08,240
Speaker 5: thing about organizations, and this is something we'll come back

2242
01:57:08,240 --> 01:57:10,840
Speaker 5: to you later. The important thing about organizations is they

2243
01:57:10,920 --> 01:57:13,240
Speaker 5: have a lot of people. Yeah, And the thing that

2244
01:57:13,320 --> 01:57:16,320
Speaker 5: makes organizing work is people. It's not organizations. It's not

2245
01:57:16,520 --> 01:57:19,240
Speaker 5: even necessarily ideological labels. It's there being a bunch of

2246
01:57:19,320 --> 01:57:22,400
Speaker 5: people who you can use and who want to do things. Yeah,

2247
01:57:23,160 --> 01:57:27,200
Speaker 5: but something I realized that the more I had these conversations, right,

2248
01:57:27,760 --> 01:57:29,440
Speaker 5: you know, I'm having it with friends, I'm having them

2249
01:57:29,480 --> 01:57:33,080
Speaker 5: with strangers, I'm having them with other organizers. And the

2250
01:57:33,200 --> 01:57:35,760
Speaker 5: more I had these conversations, the more I realize something

2251
01:57:35,840 --> 01:57:39,440
Speaker 5: sort of startling you. The person listening to this almost

2252
01:57:39,480 --> 01:57:42,360
Speaker 5: certainly already knows how to organize, but you don't know

2253
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:46,200
Speaker 5: that that's called organizing. Yeah, that's a very good point.

2254
01:57:46,920 --> 01:57:49,720
Speaker 5: I have encountered some of the most stunning or I

2255
01:57:49,760 --> 01:57:52,800
Speaker 5: mean organizing that like I can't discuss the specifics of,

2256
01:57:52,880 --> 01:57:55,080
Speaker 5: but like some of the best organizing I've ever encountered.

2257
01:57:55,160 --> 01:57:57,200
Speaker 5: I have ran into you in the last three weeks

2258
01:57:57,240 --> 01:57:59,760
Speaker 5: some people who don't think that they're organizers and started

2259
01:57:59,800 --> 01:58:03,560
Speaker 5: talking to me about their stuff. I was like, what, Like,

2260
01:58:04,680 --> 01:58:07,520
Speaker 5: people are winning victories that like the like hardcore committed

2261
01:58:07,600 --> 01:58:10,560
Speaker 5: organizers haven't been able to do in like thirty years. Yeah,

2262
01:58:10,680 --> 01:58:12,600
Speaker 5: and it's just by random people who don't think they

2263
01:58:12,680 --> 01:58:13,440
Speaker 5: know how to do anything.

2264
01:58:13,800 --> 01:58:15,880
Speaker 4: Yeah. Can I tell a little organizing story?

2265
01:58:16,000 --> 01:58:16,760
Speaker 2: Do we have time?

2266
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:18,240
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, go for it.

2267
01:58:18,320 --> 01:58:20,720
Speaker 1: So I remember in like twenty eighteen, I am on

2268
01:58:20,840 --> 01:58:22,880
Speaker 1: a trip with a friend. We're coming back and we

2269
01:58:23,320 --> 01:58:25,880
Speaker 1: see the arrival of the migrant caravan. One of the

2270
01:58:26,000 --> 01:58:28,200
Speaker 1: migrant caravan is the one that everyone decided to have

2271
01:58:28,280 --> 01:58:31,040
Speaker 1: a fucking cow about right before the twenty eighteen mid terms.

2272
01:58:31,800 --> 01:58:34,120
Speaker 1: And at that time, they were corraling the people of

2273
01:58:34,160 --> 01:58:38,360
Speaker 1: the migrant caravan in a baseball stadium in Tijuana, and

2274
01:58:38,640 --> 01:58:41,360
Speaker 1: like it was raining every day, So the baseball stadium ends.

2275
01:58:41,240 --> 01:58:42,960
Speaker 4: Up looking like the Battle of the Psalm after like

2276
01:58:43,080 --> 01:58:43,480
Speaker 4: a couple of.

2277
01:58:43,560 --> 01:58:46,040
Speaker 1: Days, right, you know, kids in leady mud and shit,

2278
01:58:46,680 --> 01:58:49,720
Speaker 1: and I particularly know what to do, but evidently there

2279
01:58:49,720 --> 01:58:51,760
Speaker 1: were people there who were hungry and thirsty, and so

2280
01:58:52,000 --> 01:58:54,000
Speaker 1: I get three of my my friends. At this time,

2281
01:58:54,280 --> 01:58:58,360
Speaker 1: I was still making about half my money riding bicycles

2282
01:58:58,400 --> 01:59:00,920
Speaker 1: and in the other half writing. So my friends and

2283
01:59:00,960 --> 01:59:03,240
Speaker 1: I supposed to do a long bike ride. All of

2284
01:59:03,360 --> 01:59:05,400
Speaker 1: us are people who make a living riding bikes, right,

2285
01:59:05,640 --> 01:59:08,640
Speaker 1: we're not like expert organizers. And I was like, hey, guys,

2286
01:59:08,680 --> 01:59:09,160
Speaker 1: this is fucked.

2287
01:59:09,200 --> 01:59:09,640
Speaker 4: Which we do.

2288
01:59:10,120 --> 01:59:12,480
Speaker 1: We called a friend who has a company who makes waffles,

2289
01:59:13,240 --> 01:59:17,000
Speaker 1: where we obtained like as many waffles as we could

2290
01:59:17,000 --> 01:59:19,760
Speaker 1: physically carry across the border. At that time, we weren't

2291
01:59:19,800 --> 01:59:22,200
Speaker 1: able to get in. We found a way to get in.

2292
01:59:22,760 --> 01:59:26,520
Speaker 1: We began distributing the waffles. After that, we put something online,

2293
01:59:26,600 --> 01:59:29,200
Speaker 1: people sent us money, and we continued feeding people for months.

2294
01:59:29,640 --> 01:59:32,080
Speaker 1: None of us, I think, had a particular plan or

2295
01:59:32,160 --> 01:59:35,000
Speaker 1: a scheduled. Yeah, it is a bit chaotic at times,

2296
01:59:35,560 --> 01:59:38,040
Speaker 1: but we were able to do that and with a

2297
01:59:38,040 --> 01:59:40,080
Speaker 1: lot of other people. Clearly wasn't just us, right, but

2298
01:59:40,200 --> 01:59:42,360
Speaker 1: we were able to process tenths of thousands of dollars

2299
01:59:42,400 --> 01:59:43,720
Speaker 1: and feed thousands of people.

2300
01:59:44,640 --> 01:59:46,560
Speaker 4: Be everyone there, And.

2301
01:59:46,600 --> 01:59:49,680
Speaker 1: I've seen this countless times, especially working and organizing with

2302
01:59:50,400 --> 01:59:52,920
Speaker 1: well with refugees. For the most part, people are so

2303
01:59:53,080 --> 01:59:55,840
Speaker 1: good at organizing each other in themselves. Like when we

2304
01:59:56,360 --> 01:59:59,120
Speaker 1: got there with bottles of water and food, there are

2305
01:59:59,120 --> 02:00:02,040
Speaker 1: a thousand people who have not had sometimes a drink

2306
02:00:02,280 --> 02:00:04,600
Speaker 1: for days, let alone more than a thousand, I think,

2307
02:00:04,720 --> 02:00:08,160
Speaker 1: let alone something hot to eat. Right, Everybody made sure

2308
02:00:08,200 --> 02:00:10,120
Speaker 1: that the children and the sick people got what they

2309
02:00:10,200 --> 02:00:10,760
Speaker 1: needed first.

2310
02:00:11,000 --> 02:00:14,160
Speaker 4: Organizing is something that is very inherent in us as people.

2311
02:00:14,240 --> 02:00:18,320
Speaker 4: It just we don't call it that. Yeah, And that's

2312
02:00:18,360 --> 02:00:20,000
Speaker 4: part of what I want to try to the myth.

2313
02:00:20,040 --> 02:00:21,840
Speaker 5: I want to try to puncture with this because I

2314
02:00:21,920 --> 02:00:24,840
Speaker 5: think particularly in the US, but this is true in

2315
02:00:24,880 --> 02:00:26,760
Speaker 5: a lot of places. There's this way in which the

2316
02:00:26,960 --> 02:00:30,640
Speaker 5: organizer sort of TM capital T capital O. The organizer

2317
02:00:30,720 --> 02:00:33,880
Speaker 5: gets held up as this sort of I guess, even

2318
02:00:34,000 --> 02:00:38,120
Speaker 5: a particularly masculinist thing, which is it's this this guy

2319
02:00:38,280 --> 02:00:43,440
Speaker 5: with specialized knowledge, and that's just not true. This brings

2320
02:00:43,520 --> 02:00:45,920
Speaker 5: us something that I think is actually really important, which

2321
02:00:46,000 --> 02:00:47,960
Speaker 5: is what what even is organizing?

2322
02:00:48,400 --> 02:00:48,520
Speaker 2: Right?

2323
02:00:49,200 --> 02:00:51,720
Speaker 5: And the answer is that most organizing is you get

2324
02:00:51,920 --> 02:00:54,840
Speaker 5: you get a group of people together, you get them

2325
02:00:54,880 --> 02:00:57,320
Speaker 5: to show up to something, and then you do something right.

2326
02:00:57,560 --> 02:01:01,320
Speaker 5: And the thing about this, right, that's something all of

2327
02:01:01,400 --> 02:01:04,240
Speaker 5: you know how to do. If you can organize a

2328
02:01:04,440 --> 02:01:07,520
Speaker 5: dinner party, right, if you can get eight people to

2329
02:01:07,640 --> 02:01:10,160
Speaker 5: show up to a place to eat dinner, you can

2330
02:01:10,240 --> 02:01:14,000
Speaker 5: do this. It is it is largely the same skill sets,

2331
02:01:14,040 --> 02:01:16,400
Speaker 5: and all of the skill sets that make people good

2332
02:01:16,520 --> 02:01:20,360
Speaker 5: organizers are skill sets that you have to develop to

2333
02:01:20,800 --> 02:01:22,360
Speaker 5: you know, work a job right.

2334
02:01:22,480 --> 02:01:22,600
Speaker 3: You know.

2335
02:01:22,760 --> 02:01:24,040
Speaker 5: Like one of the things that comes up a lot

2336
02:01:24,120 --> 02:01:27,240
Speaker 5: in this which is less discussed and also kind of annoying,

2337
02:01:27,360 --> 02:01:28,640
Speaker 5: but you know you have to manage it is that

2338
02:01:28,800 --> 02:01:31,400
Speaker 5: organizing is about people and sometimes you have to you know,

2339
02:01:31,440 --> 02:01:32,600
Speaker 5: you have to do things like you have to manage

2340
02:01:32,600 --> 02:01:34,800
Speaker 5: people's egos. But like, I don't know, almost all of

2341
02:01:34,880 --> 02:01:37,560
Speaker 5: you work jobs or have work jobs, right, you have

2342
02:01:37,720 --> 02:01:41,040
Speaker 5: had to like deal with your boss being on one right,

2343
02:01:42,040 --> 02:01:44,360
Speaker 5: you have the skills to do this. You know how

2344
02:01:44,400 --> 02:01:49,240
Speaker 5: to do the interpersonal relationship stuff. It's just that you

2345
02:01:49,280 --> 02:01:53,200
Speaker 5: don't think about that as organizing, even though that's that's.

2346
02:01:53,240 --> 02:01:54,120
Speaker 1: Just what it is.

2347
02:01:55,040 --> 02:01:57,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the core of it is getting people to

2348
02:01:57,360 --> 02:02:00,000
Speaker 4: do stuff, like like you do it every.

2349
02:02:01,080 --> 02:02:03,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, and the way you do this is by building

2350
02:02:03,880 --> 02:02:06,880
Speaker 5: relationships with people, right, And this isn't necessarily friendships, although

2351
02:02:06,920 --> 02:02:08,840
Speaker 5: that works. And like, one of the easiest ways to

2352
02:02:09,520 --> 02:02:12,360
Speaker 5: start organizing is by getting all of your friends together

2353
02:02:12,480 --> 02:02:14,840
Speaker 5: because you're already friends, you have pre existing relationships, and

2354
02:02:14,920 --> 02:02:18,560
Speaker 5: being like, Okay, motherfuckers, we gotta go do something.

2355
02:02:19,200 --> 02:02:20,320
Speaker 4: And actually I love that.

2356
02:02:20,400 --> 02:02:22,760
Speaker 5: The first thing that you brought up was an admittedly

2357
02:02:22,840 --> 02:02:26,800
Speaker 5: sort of medium ish scale lift version of this. But

2358
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:28,640
Speaker 5: one of the very easiest things that you can do

2359
02:02:28,840 --> 02:02:31,040
Speaker 5: is you can just get food of some kind. You

2360
02:02:31,120 --> 02:02:33,040
Speaker 5: can either buy it or you can make it yourself,

2361
02:02:33,680 --> 02:02:36,320
Speaker 5: and you and a group of like eight people, not

2362
02:02:36,440 --> 02:02:37,920
Speaker 5: even eight people, you can do it with lower I

2363
02:02:38,160 --> 02:02:40,080
Speaker 5: know people who've done this just solo.

2364
02:02:40,800 --> 02:02:43,040
Speaker 4: Is that you can just go give food to people. Yeah.

2365
02:02:43,240 --> 02:02:46,560
Speaker 4: Literally it was this morning, so I'm tired.

2366
02:02:46,640 --> 02:02:48,920
Speaker 1: Yesterday morning, I have some mine house neighbors right and

2367
02:02:49,000 --> 02:02:50,520
Speaker 1: it was cold, and so I went out and gave

2368
02:02:50,560 --> 02:02:54,520
Speaker 1: them some hot breakfast, so hot coffee. It's super easy

2369
02:02:54,560 --> 02:02:57,560
Speaker 1: to do if you are struggling socially wherever you are,

2370
02:02:57,680 --> 02:02:59,440
Speaker 1: maybe you're finding a hide to make friends. I know

2371
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:02,400
Speaker 1: that's the thing people often struggle, especially if you've moved

2372
02:03:02,440 --> 02:03:05,200
Speaker 1: to a new place or post pandemic, or you're still

2373
02:03:05,240 --> 02:03:07,600
Speaker 1: concerned with Liuvede gatherings or any of those things. Like,

2374
02:03:07,960 --> 02:03:10,560
Speaker 1: if you start doing that, you will find other people

2375
02:03:10,880 --> 02:03:12,720
Speaker 1: who want to do it too, Like so many of

2376
02:03:12,760 --> 02:03:16,080
Speaker 1: my friends I organize with are people. Like when we

2377
02:03:16,240 --> 02:03:17,920
Speaker 1: had the end of Title forty two and people were

2378
02:03:17,960 --> 02:03:20,840
Speaker 1: in between the fences that a lot of the people

2379
02:03:20,880 --> 02:03:23,680
Speaker 1: who I organize with now or who helped people with now,

2380
02:03:23,760 --> 02:03:26,760
Speaker 1: I didn't know. I just showed up with a giant

2381
02:03:26,800 --> 02:03:29,200
Speaker 1: sider generator that I happened to have and some stuff

2382
02:03:29,240 --> 02:03:31,000
Speaker 1: that we had to whip around a CAOL zone for

2383
02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:33,960
Speaker 1: and like people who care about the same things as

2384
02:03:34,000 --> 02:03:36,560
Speaker 1: you are generally cool and it's a good way to

2385
02:03:36,680 --> 02:03:39,160
Speaker 1: make friends, and then you can go on from there.

2386
02:03:40,360 --> 02:03:43,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, and there's a second compounding thing here too, which

2387
02:03:43,680 --> 02:03:47,320
Speaker 5: is that you know, feeding people it's a way to

2388
02:03:47,360 --> 02:03:50,440
Speaker 5: build relationships with people, and also it's a really good

2389
02:03:50,560 --> 02:03:53,840
Speaker 5: way for people to get to know you in general

2390
02:03:53,960 --> 02:03:55,800
Speaker 5: and know that you are someone who will help them

2391
02:03:55,840 --> 02:03:57,840
Speaker 5: with things. Yeah, and from there, and this is a

2392
02:03:57,960 --> 02:03:59,840
Speaker 5: very common except I mean this is I literally had

2393
02:03:59,840 --> 02:04:02,600
Speaker 5: this conversation with one of my friends who's like an

2394
02:04:02,640 --> 02:04:05,680
Speaker 5: old school Food Not Bombs organizer. Food Not Bombs is

2395
02:04:05,720 --> 02:04:08,600
Speaker 5: a very very it's a cool organization. You can just

2396
02:04:08,800 --> 02:04:11,840
Speaker 5: like found a food out Bobs chapter. They have like

2397
02:04:12,240 --> 02:04:15,120
Speaker 5: a couple of principles, or you can just do your

2398
02:04:15,160 --> 02:04:16,800
Speaker 5: own thing. And I'm pretty sure it's still like the

2399
02:04:16,880 --> 02:04:19,440
Speaker 5: largest anarchist project in the world. Yeah, because all it

2400
02:04:19,520 --> 02:04:22,120
Speaker 5: takes is you and like three other people and you

2401
02:04:22,280 --> 02:04:25,240
Speaker 5: just go feed people. But the thing is from doing that, right,

2402
02:04:25,280 --> 02:04:27,600
Speaker 5: if there's other things that you're concerned about, people will

2403
02:04:27,720 --> 02:04:30,280
Speaker 5: bring you their problems and you can help them doing it.

2404
02:04:30,320 --> 02:04:32,080
Speaker 5: And this is a very good way to get into

2405
02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:35,400
Speaker 5: other kinds of organizing because suddenly, once you start building

2406
02:04:35,440 --> 02:04:38,480
Speaker 5: these relationships. Everything sort of cycles and cycles, and you know,

2407
02:04:38,600 --> 02:04:41,120
Speaker 5: you get involved in more and more things. Yeah, and

2408
02:04:41,400 --> 02:04:43,200
Speaker 5: that's kind of a that's kind of a late stage

2409
02:04:43,560 --> 02:04:45,760
Speaker 5: thing that we're sort of jumping to a bit. But

2410
02:04:46,200 --> 02:04:48,160
Speaker 5: I want to go back to the beginnings of how so,

2411
02:04:48,240 --> 02:04:50,880
Speaker 5: how do you get a group of people together to

2412
02:04:50,960 --> 02:04:54,520
Speaker 5: do a thing? And the answer is you kind of

2413
02:04:54,680 --> 02:04:58,400
Speaker 5: already know how to because you presumably at some point

2414
02:04:58,440 --> 02:05:01,600
Speaker 5: in your life have like organized a group of friends

2415
02:05:01,680 --> 02:05:05,440
Speaker 5: to go do something, right, Like I've gotten a group

2416
02:05:05,480 --> 02:05:07,880
Speaker 5: of people together to go accomplish a task.

2417
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:10,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it could literally be anything, right, like, yeah,

2418
02:05:10,800 --> 02:05:12,680
Speaker 1: if you've got some people to go to a bar,

2419
02:05:13,560 --> 02:05:14,400
Speaker 1: you have the skills.

2420
02:05:14,840 --> 02:05:16,880
Speaker 5: One way I've been thinking about it recently and in

2421
02:05:17,000 --> 02:05:19,240
Speaker 5: my project is putting is thinking about it as like

2422
02:05:19,440 --> 02:05:20,920
Speaker 5: putting together a heist crew.

2423
02:05:22,760 --> 02:05:26,440
Speaker 4: And so, okay, I could vouch for this right.

2424
02:05:27,320 --> 02:05:30,640
Speaker 5: The feeling of walking up to eight people and telling

2425
02:05:30,680 --> 02:05:34,040
Speaker 5: them individually, I'm putting together a team and I want

2426
02:05:34,200 --> 02:05:35,240
Speaker 5: you it is.

2427
02:05:35,480 --> 02:05:37,840
Speaker 4: It feels you can just do it. There is nothing

2428
02:05:37,880 --> 02:05:38,320
Speaker 4: stopping you.

2429
02:05:38,440 --> 02:05:40,840
Speaker 5: There nothing in the world can stop you from just

2430
02:05:40,920 --> 02:05:42,920
Speaker 5: walking up to your friend and going I'm putting together

2431
02:05:43,000 --> 02:05:47,000
Speaker 5: a team, and it feels exactly as good as you

2432
02:05:47,080 --> 02:05:48,360
Speaker 5: think it would from the Ice movie.

2433
02:05:48,640 --> 02:05:52,280
Speaker 4: It rules, It's so fun amazing.

2434
02:05:52,720 --> 02:05:55,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, and and and but this gets into also what

2435
02:05:55,400 --> 02:05:59,360
Speaker 5: kinds of people you want to do right, because obviously

2436
02:05:59,520 --> 02:06:02,560
Speaker 5: you know, there's two vectors of this. There's on the

2437
02:06:02,640 --> 02:06:04,880
Speaker 5: one hand, you have the aspect of okay, who do

2438
02:06:04,960 --> 02:06:08,160
Speaker 5: you know? Right, And a lot of organizing is just about,

2439
02:06:08,640 --> 02:06:11,480
Speaker 5: here is a problem, and I know someone who has

2440
02:06:11,720 --> 02:06:13,960
Speaker 5: some sort of skill or resource that can that can

2441
02:06:14,000 --> 02:06:15,960
Speaker 5: help deal with it, and you put people in touch

2442
02:06:16,000 --> 02:06:19,560
Speaker 5: with each other, and that's organizing. That's so much organizing

2443
02:06:19,680 --> 02:06:23,080
Speaker 5: is literally just hey, like I have like a broken

2444
02:06:23,160 --> 02:06:25,520
Speaker 5: part of my car. I know someone who's like a

2445
02:06:25,640 --> 02:06:28,520
Speaker 5: car mechanic, right, and you put them in touch, and

2446
02:06:28,600 --> 02:06:31,400
Speaker 5: you have successfully organized people, and you have built relationships,

2447
02:06:31,440 --> 02:06:33,920
Speaker 5: and you have made all of the sort of social

2448
02:06:34,080 --> 02:06:35,800
Speaker 5: web that creates organizing.

2449
02:06:35,840 --> 02:06:37,320
Speaker 4: You've made it stronger. Yeah.

2450
02:06:37,440 --> 02:06:40,120
Speaker 5: It also just feels good because you know, and that's

2451
02:06:40,160 --> 02:06:41,960
Speaker 5: an auxiliary benefit to all of this is that it's

2452
02:06:42,160 --> 02:06:43,920
Speaker 5: a great it's a great way to sort of break

2453
02:06:44,440 --> 02:06:45,920
Speaker 5: break the isolation we're all under.

2454
02:06:46,840 --> 02:06:49,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the best solution for despair is.

2455
02:06:51,240 --> 02:06:54,440
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of a quotation here something that the busy

2456
02:06:54,560 --> 02:06:57,240
Speaker 1: bee have no time for despair. But the thing that

2457
02:06:57,360 --> 02:06:59,360
Speaker 1: makes me feel better about the world is that I

2458
02:06:59,480 --> 02:07:03,920
Speaker 1: have seen that people can fix massive problems with very

2459
02:07:04,040 --> 02:07:08,400
Speaker 1: few resources by just showing up. And like I think,

2460
02:07:09,600 --> 02:07:12,120
Speaker 1: organizing is what gives me, what allows me to enter

2461
02:07:12,200 --> 02:07:14,320
Speaker 1: this period of time that we're entering into with a

2462
02:07:14,480 --> 02:07:16,360
Speaker 1: with a great deal more hope than I otherwise would

2463
02:07:16,400 --> 02:07:16,640
Speaker 1: have done.

2464
02:07:17,480 --> 02:07:19,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and do you know what else will help you

2465
02:07:19,240 --> 02:07:23,880
Speaker 4: enter your situation with Is it the products and services

2466
02:07:23,960 --> 02:07:25,280
Speaker 4: that support this podcast.

2467
02:07:25,480 --> 02:07:26,960
Speaker 5: I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but

2468
02:07:27,320 --> 02:07:30,160
Speaker 5: we are not in control of the length of the ads.

2469
02:07:31,520 --> 02:07:36,000
Speaker 4: They just do it. We're sorry, here's a really long

2470
02:07:36,080 --> 02:07:37,960
Speaker 4: period of ads. I'm so sorry.

2471
02:07:48,560 --> 02:07:50,960
Speaker 5: We are back. So I want to I want to

2472
02:07:51,040 --> 02:07:53,800
Speaker 5: return to my highest career if I don't know if

2473
02:07:53,800 --> 02:07:55,360
Speaker 5: if you're a D and D person, the other way

2474
02:07:55,400 --> 02:07:57,080
Speaker 5: you can think about this is you're putting together like

2475
02:07:57,120 --> 02:07:59,520
Speaker 5: a Dungeons and Dragons party or like an RPG party.

2476
02:08:00,240 --> 02:08:03,040
Speaker 5: And the way you need to think about this is, Okay,

2477
02:08:03,080 --> 02:08:05,920
Speaker 5: so you've picked a thing that you want to do, right.

2478
02:08:06,080 --> 02:08:08,000
Speaker 5: You see, you've seen something in the world that is

2479
02:08:08,080 --> 02:08:10,320
Speaker 5: bad and you figure it you go, Okay, I can

2480
02:08:10,400 --> 02:08:12,240
Speaker 5: do this thing to solve it. And maybe and maybe

2481
02:08:12,480 --> 02:08:14,800
Speaker 5: that's you know, it's literally something as simple as feeding people.

2482
02:08:14,880 --> 02:08:17,480
Speaker 5: Maybe that's you know, I want to start. I want

2483
02:08:17,480 --> 02:08:19,720
Speaker 5: to start doing tenants organizing. I want to start because

2484
02:08:19,720 --> 02:08:21,840
Speaker 5: my rent is too high, right, people are getting evicted.

2485
02:08:21,880 --> 02:08:23,920
Speaker 5: I want to start doing like immigration defense.

2486
02:08:24,600 --> 02:08:24,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2487
02:08:25,080 --> 02:08:28,720
Speaker 5: And from there you make a list and that list

2488
02:08:29,400 --> 02:08:31,560
Speaker 5: is you know what you're interested in doing, and you

2489
02:08:32,040 --> 02:08:35,680
Speaker 5: try to match what things need to be done with

2490
02:08:35,960 --> 02:08:39,560
Speaker 5: people you know who have those skills. Yeah, and this

2491
02:08:39,720 --> 02:08:41,320
Speaker 5: is you know, this, this is is where you release

2492
02:08:41,400 --> 02:08:43,640
Speaker 5: and get into the higst things, right, because everyone has

2493
02:08:43,720 --> 02:08:47,320
Speaker 5: their sort of like highst role. Now, obviously part of

2494
02:08:47,360 --> 02:08:49,000
Speaker 5: this that you want is you want to create sort

2495
02:08:49,000 --> 02:08:52,200
Speaker 5: of balanced teams, right. You want people who have overlapping

2496
02:08:52,320 --> 02:08:54,600
Speaker 5: strengths so you don't just have only one person who

2497
02:08:54,680 --> 02:08:57,280
Speaker 5: can do a thing. And part of the way the

2498
02:08:57,320 --> 02:09:00,880
Speaker 5: successful organization works over time, and I mean just how

2499
02:09:00,920 --> 02:09:04,320
Speaker 5: successful organizing works is that eventually you are trying to

2500
02:09:04,440 --> 02:09:07,080
Speaker 5: organize yourself out of a job. Which is to say,

2501
02:09:07,520 --> 02:09:09,920
Speaker 5: you want your organization to function such that if you're

2502
02:09:09,960 --> 02:09:12,280
Speaker 5: not able to do it, you know, or just you're

2503
02:09:12,320 --> 02:09:14,600
Speaker 5: gone or you cycle onto a next thing, or you know,

2504
02:09:14,680 --> 02:09:16,880
Speaker 5: any any number of things that can happen. You want

2505
02:09:16,920 --> 02:09:19,240
Speaker 5: the organization to still be able to keep working without you,

2506
02:09:19,400 --> 02:09:20,960
Speaker 5: and you want you want you're trying to get people

2507
02:09:20,960 --> 02:09:23,120
Speaker 5: to be able to replace you as the person who's

2508
02:09:23,160 --> 02:09:26,720
Speaker 5: like organizing the thing, right, Yeah, And at this point

2509
02:09:26,880 --> 02:09:30,040
Speaker 5: we can start talking about the kinds of skills that

2510
02:09:30,200 --> 02:09:33,280
Speaker 5: people need for organizing, and a lot of people and

2511
02:09:33,320 --> 02:09:36,320
Speaker 5: this is unbelievably common when I talk to people, and

2512
02:09:36,480 --> 02:09:39,120
Speaker 5: like especially women and especially like a lot of non

2513
02:09:39,160 --> 02:09:42,920
Speaker 5: binary people and trans people particularly have this is that

2514
02:09:43,920 --> 02:09:47,800
Speaker 5: people don't believe that they have any skills and then

2515
02:09:47,840 --> 02:09:49,840
Speaker 5: you talk to them for five seconds and they're like, well,

2516
02:09:49,880 --> 02:09:52,600
Speaker 5: I'm good at carrying heavy objects, right, I'm good with kids,

2517
02:09:52,640 --> 02:09:54,040
Speaker 5: which is a huge one. We'll get to you in

2518
02:09:54,080 --> 02:09:56,120
Speaker 5: a second, right, Or like, I don't know, I have

2519
02:09:56,280 --> 02:09:59,240
Speaker 5: a car. That's a huge skill. There are so many

2520
02:09:59,280 --> 02:10:01,880
Speaker 5: different skills that are so useful for so many things.

2521
02:10:02,000 --> 02:10:04,280
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna go over lots of things that are

2522
02:10:04,280 --> 02:10:06,760
Speaker 5: actually really useful to get to get people a sense

2523
02:10:06,880 --> 02:10:09,440
Speaker 5: of like the kinds of things that there are. There

2524
02:10:09,480 --> 02:10:13,160
Speaker 5: are massive roles for so one of the most important

2525
02:10:13,240 --> 02:10:15,440
Speaker 5: ones and this is something you can you deliberately look for.

2526
02:10:15,760 --> 02:10:17,040
Speaker 5: You know, this is this is one of the things

2527
02:10:17,080 --> 02:10:19,560
Speaker 5: you do at the beginning of any union organizing campaign.

2528
02:10:20,040 --> 02:10:23,160
Speaker 5: Someone who's good at talking to other people and making friends.

2529
02:10:23,680 --> 02:10:27,120
Speaker 5: That is a staggeringly useful person because again, most most

2530
02:10:27,240 --> 02:10:30,040
Speaker 5: organizing is just talking to people and building relationships. And

2531
02:10:30,200 --> 02:10:31,520
Speaker 5: you know, one of the things you do when you're

2532
02:10:31,520 --> 02:10:33,720
Speaker 5: when you're doing your sort of they call it power mapping.

2533
02:10:33,840 --> 02:10:36,040
Speaker 5: But when when you when you're figuring out how you're

2534
02:10:36,080 --> 02:10:38,720
Speaker 5: going to organize a workplace, is you find the person

2535
02:10:38,840 --> 02:10:41,600
Speaker 5: who everyone likes and talks to and respects, and you

2536
02:10:41,720 --> 02:10:44,480
Speaker 5: talk to that person. Yeah, because that person can you know,

2537
02:10:44,600 --> 02:10:46,880
Speaker 5: can sort of like organize people down the chain because

2538
02:10:46,880 --> 02:10:49,240
Speaker 5: they have they have their relationships already, and also they're

2539
02:10:49,280 --> 02:10:51,400
Speaker 5: good they'll be good at, you know, talking to new

2540
02:10:51,440 --> 02:10:54,960
Speaker 5: people and and spreading your organization that way, and so, like,

2541
02:10:55,200 --> 02:10:57,800
Speaker 5: you know, if you're just someone who's social or and

2542
02:10:57,920 --> 02:11:00,000
Speaker 5: this is also very useful if you have a friend

2543
02:11:00,520 --> 02:11:02,200
Speaker 5: who is very social, because I know a lot of

2544
02:11:02,320 --> 02:11:05,040
Speaker 5: us are oporary social, but you probably have a friend

2545
02:11:05,120 --> 02:11:07,000
Speaker 5: that you're thinking of right now who is very good

2546
02:11:07,120 --> 02:11:10,160
Speaker 5: at conversations. That is charming and is good at making friendships.

2547
02:11:10,720 --> 02:11:15,280
Speaker 5: That person unbelievably useful, incredibly useful and compelling skill. Yeah,

2548
02:11:15,520 --> 02:11:17,920
Speaker 5: there are also things like research people who are good

2549
02:11:17,960 --> 02:11:19,840
Speaker 5: at and I think people are much better at research

2550
02:11:19,920 --> 02:11:22,880
Speaker 5: than they think to take like a tat a's organizing example. Right,

2551
02:11:22,960 --> 02:11:24,920
Speaker 5: one of the common things you have to do is

2552
02:11:25,440 --> 02:11:28,720
Speaker 5: find out stuff about a landlords, right, Yeah, and there's

2553
02:11:28,760 --> 02:11:31,600
Speaker 5: the higher difficulty version of that, which isn't that hard. Also,

2554
02:11:32,000 --> 02:11:34,160
Speaker 5: I want to mention this, but like going to a

2555
02:11:34,240 --> 02:11:38,480
Speaker 5: courthouse and finding records about who owns property companies.

2556
02:11:38,600 --> 02:11:39,840
Speaker 4: That high it's not that hard.

2557
02:11:39,920 --> 02:11:41,840
Speaker 5: It's like you could just do it, right, It's not

2558
02:11:42,000 --> 02:11:44,720
Speaker 5: as hard as you think it is from someone saying it.

2559
02:11:45,240 --> 02:11:47,320
Speaker 5: But there's also even just easier things than that, right,

2560
02:11:47,360 --> 02:11:48,880
Speaker 5: that all of you probably already know how to do,

2561
02:11:48,960 --> 02:11:52,120
Speaker 5: which is just looking at someone's social media profiles and

2562
02:11:52,200 --> 02:11:55,600
Speaker 5: finding out information about them. Yeah, and this is very useful, yeah,

2563
02:11:55,680 --> 02:11:57,600
Speaker 5: for like union campaigns, bosses.

2564
02:11:57,800 --> 02:12:00,960
Speaker 1: If you've ever been a person who uses dating apps,

2565
02:12:01,320 --> 02:12:04,080
Speaker 1: especially if you're a woman, yeah, yeah, then you know

2566
02:12:04,280 --> 02:12:07,720
Speaker 1: how to ocin. Actually maybe you don't credit yourself with

2567
02:12:07,800 --> 02:12:10,480
Speaker 1: that skill, but one hundred percent that like you've developed

2568
02:12:10,480 --> 02:12:12,080
Speaker 1: that skill to keep yourself safe.

2569
02:12:12,160 --> 02:12:14,200
Speaker 4: And you can use it for good. Do you want

2570
02:12:14,240 --> 02:12:17,240
Speaker 4: to explain what ocent is? And yes, how that how

2571
02:12:17,320 --> 02:12:18,000
Speaker 4: that process works?

2572
02:12:18,160 --> 02:12:18,360
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2573
02:12:18,440 --> 02:12:21,960
Speaker 1: Sure, So open source intelligence is it's an acream doesn't

2574
02:12:21,960 --> 02:12:25,480
Speaker 1: really need to exist. It's gathering information off open sources,

2575
02:12:25,520 --> 02:12:28,520
Speaker 1: things sort of openly accessible, right, as opposed to like humint,

2576
02:12:28,600 --> 02:12:31,360
Speaker 1: which is like being a spy, or singint, which is

2577
02:12:31,480 --> 02:12:35,400
Speaker 1: capturing signals. Open source information is you're creeping someone's Instagram,

2578
02:12:35,720 --> 02:12:38,920
Speaker 1: creeping their Facebook, looking at the weird fucking shit that

2579
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:41,480
Speaker 1: they put on good Reads. Right, all the data that

2580
02:12:41,640 --> 02:12:44,240
Speaker 1: is out there, largely on the internet, about us. A

2581
02:12:44,320 --> 02:12:46,760
Speaker 1: lot of people put a lot of information on the Internet.

2582
02:12:46,800 --> 02:12:50,760
Speaker 1: And it's very easy. And I would imagine that if

2583
02:12:50,880 --> 02:12:53,760
Speaker 1: you're under fifty and maybe if you're over fifty two,

2584
02:12:53,880 --> 02:12:56,040
Speaker 1: like you just know how to do this because it's

2585
02:12:56,120 --> 02:12:58,760
Speaker 1: what you do anyway you want to find out about someone.

2586
02:12:58,840 --> 02:13:02,320
Speaker 1: And especially if you are a person who goes on

2587
02:13:02,440 --> 02:13:04,400
Speaker 1: dates with people who you haven't met before and haven't

2588
02:13:04,400 --> 02:13:06,840
Speaker 1: been introduced to by a mutual friend but you meet

2589
02:13:06,840 --> 02:13:09,000
Speaker 1: on the internet, you probably already do this to keep

2590
02:13:09,000 --> 02:13:09,640
Speaker 1: yourself safe.

2591
02:13:10,320 --> 02:13:12,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, and this is something that's very useful for I mean,

2592
02:13:12,720 --> 02:13:15,080
Speaker 5: there's so many use cases for this, right. There's you know,

2593
02:13:15,280 --> 02:13:17,520
Speaker 5: there's the very obvious ones where you're dealing with the

2594
02:13:17,600 --> 02:13:20,120
Speaker 5: local Nazi and you're trying to organize around like running

2595
02:13:20,160 --> 02:13:22,120
Speaker 5: them out. People say from them and you can find

2596
02:13:22,160 --> 02:13:25,320
Speaker 5: information about them. But I mean, it's useful for cops

2597
02:13:25,320 --> 02:13:29,600
Speaker 5: who are beating people. Is useful for politicians particularly, It

2598
02:13:29,600 --> 02:13:31,960
Speaker 5: can be very useful for it's useful for landlords. This

2599
02:13:32,040 --> 02:13:35,000
Speaker 5: happens all the time. It can be very very useful

2600
02:13:35,080 --> 02:13:39,160
Speaker 5: for bosses and union campaigns. Unions have like teams of

2601
02:13:39,240 --> 02:13:42,080
Speaker 5: researchers usually to like do this kind of stuff. But

2602
02:13:42,120 --> 02:13:44,080
Speaker 5: the thing is also and this is something I don't

2603
02:13:44,120 --> 02:13:46,960
Speaker 5: think people understand. Those guys, like the people they're hiring

2604
02:13:47,000 --> 02:13:49,440
Speaker 5: to be researchers are just you, but they got a

2605
02:13:49,520 --> 02:13:51,760
Speaker 5: job being a researcher for a union. Like they have

2606
02:13:51,920 --> 02:13:53,600
Speaker 5: the same skills as you. They know how to like

2607
02:13:53,800 --> 02:13:56,200
Speaker 5: Google stuff, and they know how to look through people's

2608
02:13:56,360 --> 02:13:59,840
Speaker 5: like dating profiles and like look through their their facebooks

2609
02:13:59,840 --> 02:14:03,240
Speaker 5: and Instagrams, and like a big one, a big one

2610
02:14:03,560 --> 02:14:06,880
Speaker 5: that that the rich people especially do not think about

2611
02:14:07,280 --> 02:14:12,320
Speaker 5: is like cash app and venmo oh venop because yeah, yeah,

2612
02:14:12,320 --> 02:14:15,000
Speaker 5: because because people's peoples trying. People just leave public transactions

2613
02:14:15,080 --> 02:14:17,120
Speaker 5: out there like that. That's how they got what's his name,

2614
02:14:17,280 --> 02:14:21,520
Speaker 5: the congressional Gates. Can I legally call him the congressional pedophile?

2615
02:14:21,840 --> 02:14:23,760
Speaker 5: I guess they call him the accused pedophile.

2616
02:14:24,480 --> 02:14:27,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the man credibly accused of sleeping with an

2617
02:14:27,440 --> 02:14:29,720
Speaker 1: underage woman lots of times, you know.

2618
02:14:29,800 --> 02:14:31,480
Speaker 5: And one of the ways they found that was that

2619
02:14:31,720 --> 02:14:35,000
Speaker 5: and also like paying paying for that right, yes, which

2620
02:14:35,080 --> 02:14:36,400
Speaker 5: is which is rape by the way, I want to

2621
02:14:36,440 --> 02:14:39,000
Speaker 5: be very clear about that, like, yeah, having sex with

2622
02:14:39,040 --> 02:14:40,440
Speaker 5: someone who is underage is rape.

2623
02:14:40,480 --> 02:14:41,920
Speaker 4: It is always rape, you know.

2624
02:14:41,960 --> 02:14:43,600
Speaker 5: And the way people found that was that they just

2625
02:14:43,760 --> 02:14:46,280
Speaker 5: looked through like his cash app history and they found

2626
02:14:46,360 --> 02:14:49,600
Speaker 5: all of these money transfers to people. You know, this

2627
02:14:49,760 --> 02:14:52,640
Speaker 5: is all very very simple stuff. That's that's very very

2628
02:14:52,760 --> 02:14:56,080
Speaker 5: useful organizing wise that you already know how to do.

2629
02:14:56,920 --> 02:14:57,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2630
02:14:57,400 --> 02:15:00,480
Speaker 1: Pinterest is another absolute back Yeah. People, Yeah, so much

2631
02:15:00,640 --> 02:15:04,080
Speaker 1: interesting people on a pinning that they be pinning. You know,

2632
02:15:04,200 --> 02:15:07,360
Speaker 1: if you're hearing some of these things and you think

2633
02:15:07,600 --> 02:15:09,960
Speaker 1: that you can figure out how to do this. That's

2634
02:15:10,160 --> 02:15:13,240
Speaker 1: also a huge skill finding people who are willing to

2635
02:15:13,400 --> 02:15:16,520
Speaker 1: learn things and willing to learn new skills is a

2636
02:15:16,760 --> 02:15:20,880
Speaker 1: huge benefit to organizers because you know this, this gives you, like,

2637
02:15:21,040 --> 02:15:23,320
Speaker 1: this gives you a flexible person, right, it gives it

2638
02:15:23,360 --> 02:15:25,520
Speaker 1: gives you someone you can like flex into into any

2639
02:15:25,560 --> 02:15:27,160
Speaker 1: of a bunch of roles that you need. And also

2640
02:15:27,240 --> 02:15:31,000
Speaker 1: can you know, pick up skills to learn things. Having

2641
02:15:31,040 --> 02:15:32,760
Speaker 1: a car and being able to drive.

2642
02:15:32,840 --> 02:15:34,080
Speaker 5: And I know a lot of you don't do this,

2643
02:15:34,160 --> 02:15:36,560
Speaker 5: but if you do do this, this is you immediately,

2644
02:15:36,640 --> 02:15:39,360
Speaker 5: even if you literally cannot contribute anything else to a project.

2645
02:15:39,840 --> 02:15:42,400
Speaker 5: Being able to just drive a bunch of water to

2646
02:15:42,520 --> 02:15:45,240
Speaker 5: a place, oh yeah, huge, staggeringly useful.

2647
02:15:45,640 --> 02:15:48,080
Speaker 1: The amount of things that people can't access because they

2648
02:15:48,160 --> 02:15:52,280
Speaker 1: can't get there, it's vast, especially when I when I

2649
02:15:52,360 --> 02:15:54,600
Speaker 1: talk to migrants right have recently arrived in the US.

2650
02:15:54,680 --> 02:15:57,320
Speaker 1: They don't have a US cell phone, they can't uber yea.

2651
02:15:57,960 --> 02:16:01,280
Speaker 1: Oftentimes nowadays you can't even pay for mass transit with cash.

2652
02:16:01,360 --> 02:16:03,640
Speaker 1: You have to have a special card and then you

2653
02:16:03,680 --> 02:16:05,360
Speaker 1: have to get to the place to get the card. Right,

2654
02:16:05,560 --> 02:16:08,000
Speaker 1: The problems you can solve by being able to drive

2655
02:16:08,080 --> 02:16:12,320
Speaker 1: someone five miles are enormous, especially in the US, where

2656
02:16:12,520 --> 02:16:15,520
Speaker 1: everything is designed around everyone owning a motor car at

2657
02:16:15,520 --> 02:16:16,400
Speaker 1: all times yep.

2658
02:16:17,080 --> 02:16:21,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, And like transport based skills are also very useful.

2659
02:16:21,520 --> 02:16:23,760
Speaker 5: I mean, if you hike a lot, that's a very

2660
02:16:23,960 --> 02:16:26,720
Speaker 5: very useful skill. There's a lot of sort of mutual

2661
02:16:26,760 --> 02:16:28,400
Speaker 5: aid projects. There's a lot of you know, I mean

2662
02:16:28,480 --> 02:16:30,520
Speaker 5: even things like like setting up summer camps is the

2663
02:16:30,600 --> 02:16:33,400
Speaker 5: thing that like leftist groups do right, and being able

2664
02:16:33,440 --> 02:16:34,360
Speaker 5: to hike very good for that.

2665
02:16:34,440 --> 02:16:35,959
Speaker 4: It's good for things like wilderness rescue.

2666
02:16:36,000 --> 02:16:37,400
Speaker 5: There's a lot of you know the James like the

2667
02:16:37,480 --> 02:16:39,800
Speaker 5: work you do that has to do with like going

2668
02:16:39,879 --> 02:16:44,160
Speaker 5: in helping migrants, Like being able to hike is staggeringly

2669
02:16:44,280 --> 02:16:44,959
Speaker 5: useful skill.

2670
02:16:45,520 --> 02:16:49,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's very like, it's useful, it's important. It's

2671
02:16:49,200 --> 02:16:51,600
Speaker 1: okay if that's not something you can physically do or

2672
02:16:51,879 --> 02:16:53,440
Speaker 1: you know that that works for the way you like

2673
02:16:53,480 --> 02:16:55,800
Speaker 1: to live your life. Like another thing I was thinking

2674
02:16:55,840 --> 02:16:58,840
Speaker 1: of which can be massively important and people don't realize

2675
02:16:59,040 --> 02:17:01,400
Speaker 1: is if you know how to take off a tail

2676
02:17:01,480 --> 02:17:04,880
Speaker 1: light and replace the bulb in it. Yes, Like we're

2677
02:17:05,080 --> 02:17:08,039
Speaker 1: entering a time when people with darker, people with TPS,

2678
02:17:08,120 --> 02:17:11,240
Speaker 1: people who are undocumented, people are on temporary migration statuses

2679
02:17:11,280 --> 02:17:13,560
Speaker 1: are going to be definitely afraid of any interaction with

2680
02:17:13,680 --> 02:17:18,760
Speaker 1: law enforcement. If you can change the bulb on someone's

2681
02:17:18,800 --> 02:17:21,680
Speaker 1: tail light or their turn signal indicators of us in

2682
02:17:21,720 --> 02:17:25,600
Speaker 1: the UK, then you can meaningfully protect that person in

2683
02:17:25,680 --> 02:17:26,840
Speaker 1: a really important way.

2684
02:17:27,120 --> 02:17:28,959
Speaker 4: And it can literally take ten minutes.

2685
02:17:29,280 --> 02:17:32,200
Speaker 5: And this is something that you can scale up depending

2686
02:17:32,240 --> 02:17:34,840
Speaker 5: on how much skill you have. Right, there's even just

2687
02:17:35,040 --> 02:17:38,120
Speaker 5: very basic auto maintenance stuff is very useful for stuff

2688
02:17:38,160 --> 02:17:38,320
Speaker 5: like this.

2689
02:17:39,000 --> 02:17:40,400
Speaker 4: But you know, like if you're a.

2690
02:17:40,440 --> 02:17:43,760
Speaker 5: Carpenter, right, if you're an electrician, you do some kind

2691
02:17:43,760 --> 02:17:46,400
Speaker 5: of trade work, right, you do plumbing, right, that is

2692
02:17:46,440 --> 02:17:49,879
Speaker 5: the thing that is massively useful to a lot of people.

2693
02:17:50,360 --> 02:17:52,760
Speaker 5: There's a lot of other kind of just skills that

2694
02:17:52,879 --> 02:17:55,520
Speaker 5: you have from your job that can be very useful.

2695
02:17:55,560 --> 02:17:58,120
Speaker 5: I mean having someone to manage a spreadsheet oh yeah,

2696
02:17:58,520 --> 02:18:02,120
Speaker 5: yeah is aggeringly useful. And another one that I think

2697
02:18:02,160 --> 02:18:06,040
Speaker 5: people don't understand that they really have, but like being

2698
02:18:06,040 --> 02:18:09,800
Speaker 5: able to set up a meeting and like having a

2699
02:18:09,920 --> 02:18:13,680
Speaker 5: thing that lets you be like, okay, here's when everyone

2700
02:18:13,840 --> 02:18:16,920
Speaker 5: is free. Like you probably have to do this for

2701
02:18:17,240 --> 02:18:19,400
Speaker 5: your job or just for you know, trying to get

2702
02:18:19,480 --> 02:18:22,240
Speaker 5: your friends to go even just like be on a

2703
02:18:22,360 --> 02:18:26,320
Speaker 5: call together or like go have food or like just

2704
02:18:26,560 --> 02:18:30,960
Speaker 5: do anything. That is what literally, genuinely one of the

2705
02:18:31,000 --> 02:18:33,240
Speaker 5: most important skills you can possibly have as an organizer

2706
02:18:33,360 --> 02:18:35,360
Speaker 5: is the ability to just sort of like go talk

2707
02:18:35,400 --> 02:18:37,200
Speaker 5: to people and be like, hey, can you show up

2708
02:18:37,240 --> 02:18:40,080
Speaker 5: to this thing here? Yeah, and that is that is

2709
02:18:40,240 --> 02:18:42,920
Speaker 5: so much of just what organizing is. Can you be

2710
02:18:43,080 --> 02:18:45,320
Speaker 5: here at this time? And then trying to figure out

2711
02:18:45,320 --> 02:18:45,600
Speaker 5: a time.

2712
02:18:46,240 --> 02:18:46,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2713
02:18:46,760 --> 02:18:48,480
Speaker 5: So we're going to close out this sort of skill

2714
02:18:48,600 --> 02:18:50,720
Speaker 5: section with some I think just sort of like domestic

2715
02:18:50,760 --> 02:18:53,800
Speaker 5: these skills that I don't think people realize are super useful.

2716
02:18:54,480 --> 02:18:56,600
Speaker 5: If you have a button maker, you are instantly the

2717
02:18:56,680 --> 02:19:00,400
Speaker 5: single most useful person in any organization of that. Or

2718
02:19:00,440 --> 02:19:03,640
Speaker 5: you could obtain a button maker. They're very easy to use.

2719
02:19:03,879 --> 02:19:07,080
Speaker 5: But if you have one or you know the person

2720
02:19:07,120 --> 02:19:08,880
Speaker 5: who has the button maker, and suddenly you can just

2721
02:19:08,959 --> 02:19:12,240
Speaker 5: crank out buttons for every single event they rule. Everyone

2722
02:19:12,320 --> 02:19:16,000
Speaker 5: loves them. It helps, It helps me enormously. It's awesome.

2723
02:19:16,600 --> 02:19:21,560
Speaker 1: That's a badge for those in the Commonwealth. Also, if

2724
02:19:21,600 --> 02:19:23,640
Speaker 1: you have a sewing machine, yeah, I was about to

2725
02:19:23,680 --> 02:19:25,200
Speaker 1: mention that, Yeah, yeah, you're a hero.

2726
02:19:25,520 --> 02:19:25,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2727
02:19:25,879 --> 02:19:27,840
Speaker 1: One of my friends recently made me a little patch

2728
02:19:28,760 --> 02:19:31,280
Speaker 1: and it's really cool and I like it and putting

2729
02:19:31,360 --> 02:19:34,480
Speaker 1: all my stuff. But if you can sew, like, that's

2730
02:19:34,520 --> 02:19:37,640
Speaker 1: a skill that I do not have. And it's so

2731
02:19:37,840 --> 02:19:42,280
Speaker 1: great when people can fix stuff for someone or you know,

2732
02:19:42,360 --> 02:19:44,760
Speaker 1: make stuff fit someone. You know, if you're a person

2733
02:19:44,800 --> 02:19:46,600
Speaker 1: who finds it hard to get clothes that you like

2734
02:19:46,720 --> 02:19:49,520
Speaker 1: to wear that make you feel good, and someone one

2735
02:19:49,560 --> 02:19:52,120
Speaker 1: of my friends could do that. And one of my

2736
02:19:52,200 --> 02:19:56,680
Speaker 1: friends was making clothes for another friend for like a

2737
02:19:57,720 --> 02:20:00,640
Speaker 1: renaissance fair, and it was a nice thing I've seen

2738
02:20:00,680 --> 02:20:02,640
Speaker 1: someone do for someone else in a very long time.

2739
02:20:02,840 --> 02:20:07,680
Speaker 1: It really made her like, yeah, feel like nice and

2740
02:20:08,000 --> 02:20:10,320
Speaker 1: cared for. And like you might think that like this

2741
02:20:10,440 --> 02:20:11,560
Speaker 1: is just a weird little thing that you like to

2742
02:20:11,600 --> 02:20:14,320
Speaker 1: do with your sewing machine, but you can meaningfully really

2743
02:20:14,400 --> 02:20:16,080
Speaker 1: make someone feel cared for using that.

2744
02:20:16,680 --> 02:20:19,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's a huge part of what organizing is right,

2745
02:20:20,200 --> 02:20:21,880
Speaker 5: and and that that goes into one of the things

2746
02:20:21,959 --> 02:20:25,200
Speaker 5: that is also an appreciable skill that's very useful, is

2747
02:20:25,760 --> 02:20:28,400
Speaker 5: I mean just like being nice to people, being kind

2748
02:20:28,440 --> 02:20:31,160
Speaker 5: to people, and having people around who are good at

2749
02:20:31,440 --> 02:20:35,160
Speaker 5: like keeping groups together. Yeah, And that's its own distinct

2750
02:20:35,320 --> 02:20:38,039
Speaker 5: kind of person is someone who can you know, keep

2751
02:20:38,160 --> 02:20:40,240
Speaker 5: all of the people who are involved in a thing,

2752
02:20:41,000 --> 02:20:44,000
Speaker 5: enjoying being around each other. That's that's that's a kind

2753
02:20:44,040 --> 02:20:46,200
Speaker 5: of person who's very valuable, and it's something that you

2754
02:20:46,320 --> 02:20:48,080
Speaker 5: can look for, you know. And if that's not you,

2755
02:20:48,400 --> 02:20:50,400
Speaker 5: like you can there's something you can you know, find

2756
02:20:50,440 --> 02:20:51,920
Speaker 5: in your friends. You can find in this sort of

2757
02:20:51,959 --> 02:20:52,680
Speaker 5: the people around you.

2758
02:20:53,560 --> 02:20:54,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely.

2759
02:20:55,120 --> 02:20:57,959
Speaker 5: There's also something that I think you can tell when

2760
02:20:58,000 --> 02:21:00,880
Speaker 5: an organization is collapsing, because this is like the first

2761
02:21:00,959 --> 02:21:04,400
Speaker 5: thing with the quality drops drawing and graphic design are

2762
02:21:04,520 --> 02:21:06,800
Speaker 5: very very useful because a big part of what you

2763
02:21:06,879 --> 02:21:09,560
Speaker 5: do organizing is like you make a flyer and you

2764
02:21:09,640 --> 02:21:11,560
Speaker 5: put a flyer on a bunch of telephone poles to

2765
02:21:11,600 --> 02:21:15,600
Speaker 5: tell people that there's a thing happening. Yea, and yeah,

2766
02:21:15,840 --> 02:21:17,760
Speaker 5: you know, and this is also something you know later

2767
02:21:17,879 --> 02:21:19,960
Speaker 5: on you might be making a social media presence, but

2768
02:21:20,080 --> 02:21:23,720
Speaker 5: just having good artists and having good graphic design people

2769
02:21:23,879 --> 02:21:28,160
Speaker 5: is enormously useful for this kind of stuff. Yeah, and

2770
02:21:28,320 --> 02:21:31,440
Speaker 5: along this line, these things like making music, and there's

2771
02:21:31,480 --> 02:21:32,960
Speaker 5: a bunch of different ways this can go. This can

2772
02:21:33,000 --> 02:21:34,880
Speaker 5: be an immediate thing where you know, like you have

2773
02:21:34,959 --> 02:21:37,360
Speaker 5: people on a picket line, right and everyone's singing songs

2774
02:21:37,400 --> 02:21:39,920
Speaker 5: and this is great. We love this also, and this

2775
02:21:40,040 --> 02:21:41,800
Speaker 5: is another thing that you can be thinking about in

2776
02:21:41,920 --> 02:21:43,720
Speaker 5: terms of what skills you have and what things you

2777
02:21:43,760 --> 02:21:47,320
Speaker 5: can create benefit shows. This has been a huge part

2778
02:21:47,400 --> 02:21:49,040
Speaker 5: of a lot of how some of the Union stuff

2779
02:21:49,120 --> 02:21:51,400
Speaker 5: up here has been getting funded is by just having

2780
02:21:51,480 --> 02:21:54,080
Speaker 5: like punk benefit shows. And if that's the thing that

2781
02:21:54,160 --> 02:21:56,240
Speaker 5: you can do, well, you know people in bands, you

2782
02:21:56,320 --> 02:21:57,880
Speaker 5: know people who make music, you know people who just

2783
02:21:58,000 --> 02:22:00,920
Speaker 5: make stuff who are willing to contribut to the cause,

2784
02:22:01,840 --> 02:22:02,840
Speaker 5: that's great.

2785
02:22:03,440 --> 02:22:06,439
Speaker 1: I remember one of we had one night last September,

2786
02:22:06,760 --> 02:22:08,440
Speaker 1: so cold. We were in the desert and I'm like

2787
02:22:09,000 --> 02:22:11,800
Speaker 1: a thousand people, right, and we were at that point

2788
02:22:11,840 --> 02:22:13,800
Speaker 1: we were really struggling to feed everyone, even you know,

2789
02:22:13,840 --> 02:22:15,600
Speaker 1: because there was so few of us. But my friend

2790
02:22:15,680 --> 02:22:18,640
Speaker 1: bought out like their guitar and some bongo drums they had,

2791
02:22:18,720 --> 02:22:20,440
Speaker 1: and I think I had my harmonica in my truck,

2792
02:22:21,240 --> 02:22:24,600
Speaker 1: and like we were sitting around with these. We had

2793
02:22:24,640 --> 02:22:28,000
Speaker 1: some Seek guys, had some Weiga folks come from China,

2794
02:22:28,160 --> 02:22:30,200
Speaker 1: and then some Kourdish people and they were all explaying

2795
02:22:30,200 --> 02:22:34,440
Speaker 1: their different music and it was so nice like that,

2796
02:22:35,000 --> 02:22:37,280
Speaker 1: taking people out of a shitty situation for a moment

2797
02:22:37,400 --> 02:22:40,160
Speaker 1: with music. Again, like don't underestimate how important that it

2798
02:22:40,280 --> 02:22:41,880
Speaker 1: don't feel like if you have that skill, it's not

2799
02:22:42,000 --> 02:22:42,640
Speaker 1: a useful one.

2800
02:22:43,360 --> 02:22:45,480
Speaker 5: No, And this is something I've been starting to say

2801
02:22:45,560 --> 02:22:48,280
Speaker 5: more and more. If you need a three brained way

2802
02:22:48,600 --> 02:22:51,760
Speaker 5: to say this to someone who like is is like

2803
02:22:51,920 --> 02:22:54,760
Speaker 5: a curmudgety marks just who hates fun.

2804
02:22:55,959 --> 02:22:58,400
Speaker 4: Morale is a terrain of struggle that this is.

2805
02:22:58,480 --> 02:23:00,920
Speaker 5: There's a reason why more is one of the most

2806
02:23:00,920 --> 02:23:04,360
Speaker 5: important factors of military campaigns. You can't get people to

2807
02:23:04,480 --> 02:23:06,840
Speaker 5: do things if they're too depressed to do it. Yeah,

2808
02:23:07,080 --> 02:23:10,160
Speaker 5: And being able to raise people's morale, it's it's this

2809
02:23:10,520 --> 02:23:13,240
Speaker 5: massive if you want again, want to go into technical language,

2810
02:23:13,280 --> 02:23:15,640
Speaker 5: is a massive force multiplayer, right, It makes everyone you

2811
02:23:15,800 --> 02:23:18,879
Speaker 5: have enormously more effective, the better they feel about themselves

2812
02:23:18,879 --> 02:23:20,480
Speaker 5: and the better they feel about the situation they're in.

2813
02:23:21,240 --> 02:23:25,120
Speaker 5: And things like music, things like art, I mean things

2814
02:23:25,200 --> 02:23:26,240
Speaker 5: like pulling pranks.

2815
02:23:27,080 --> 02:23:27,440
Speaker 4: This thing.

2816
02:23:27,600 --> 02:23:30,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, if you were if you were in good practical jokester,

2817
02:23:31,040 --> 02:23:34,720
Speaker 5: this is a staggeringly useful skill. Both like in terms

2818
02:23:34,760 --> 02:23:36,720
Speaker 5: of you know, you need to be careful about whether

2819
02:23:36,720 --> 02:23:39,160
Speaker 5: you're you're playing your pranks on like other people in

2820
02:23:39,200 --> 02:23:41,840
Speaker 5: the ORG. But like you know, if you know how

2821
02:23:41,879 --> 02:23:44,320
Speaker 5: to just like pull pranks. This is a really really

2822
02:23:44,480 --> 02:23:48,280
Speaker 5: useful thing in like union campaigns, it tenants organizing. There

2823
02:23:48,320 --> 02:23:50,840
Speaker 5: are a lot of people who you can prank and

2824
02:23:50,920 --> 02:23:53,600
Speaker 5: it's very funny and it lowers their morale and it

2825
02:23:53,720 --> 02:23:54,720
Speaker 5: raises your morale.

2826
02:23:55,480 --> 02:23:57,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I go back to your music as a

2827
02:23:57,680 --> 02:23:59,720
Speaker 1: like a like morale. It's a terrand of struggle. Like

2828
02:23:59,760 --> 02:24:02,240
Speaker 1: the other memory I have last year of playing guitars

2829
02:24:02,440 --> 02:24:07,200
Speaker 1: is in Rajava, being inside at night because everyone was

2830
02:24:07,240 --> 02:24:10,279
Speaker 1: getting drone struck all the time and it was dangerous

2831
02:24:10,280 --> 02:24:13,560
Speaker 1: to be driving around, sitting around with some ZD friends

2832
02:24:14,040 --> 02:24:16,360
Speaker 1: and like we spent all night playing the ood, which

2833
02:24:16,400 --> 02:24:19,520
Speaker 1: is like a it's like a guitar with a gord

2834
02:24:19,600 --> 02:24:22,039
Speaker 1: on the bottom and it to describe it like it's

2835
02:24:22,040 --> 02:24:24,080
Speaker 1: a string instrument. It's a string instrument, is what it is.

2836
02:24:24,600 --> 02:24:28,400
Speaker 1: And like that made everyone so happy. We had such

2837
02:24:28,440 --> 02:24:32,160
Speaker 1: a nice evening. Everyone was able to like get through

2838
02:24:32,200 --> 02:24:35,240
Speaker 1: it's a relatively difficult thing. Like, you know, it sucks

2839
02:24:35,440 --> 02:24:38,240
Speaker 1: that people are being killed and just for driving around

2840
02:24:38,280 --> 02:24:40,800
Speaker 1: are existing and they're bombing all this citly infrastructure and

2841
02:24:40,879 --> 02:24:43,280
Speaker 1: the power keeps going out and all these things. Right, like,

2842
02:24:43,480 --> 02:24:46,960
Speaker 1: but there's a reason that those people have kept ood

2843
02:24:47,040 --> 02:24:51,120
Speaker 1: around after fifteen thirteen years of war, and it's because

2844
02:24:51,120 --> 02:24:53,520
Speaker 1: it is important, and so don't overlook that.

2845
02:24:54,240 --> 02:24:57,520
Speaker 5: And you know, and resisting fear is another huge aspect

2846
02:24:57,560 --> 02:25:01,040
Speaker 5: of this, right. A lot of the ways that people like,

2847
02:25:01,120 --> 02:25:03,440
Speaker 5: a lot of the ways that you demobilize people. This is,

2848
02:25:03,560 --> 02:25:06,120
Speaker 5: this is why regimes like this spend a lot of

2849
02:25:06,200 --> 02:25:09,000
Speaker 5: effort trying to make people afraid. He is that it

2850
02:25:09,120 --> 02:25:11,120
Speaker 5: makes it harder for you to act. And things that

2851
02:25:11,560 --> 02:25:14,040
Speaker 5: you know, the things that make you less afraid, even

2852
02:25:14,080 --> 02:25:17,400
Speaker 5: if they sort of seem silly, are very very important.

2853
02:25:18,000 --> 02:25:19,880
Speaker 5: And you know, on sort of this note, one of

2854
02:25:19,920 --> 02:25:22,080
Speaker 5: the things that you know, as you've assembled your group

2855
02:25:22,160 --> 02:25:24,760
Speaker 5: of people, right, one of the things that that that's

2856
02:25:24,800 --> 02:25:27,680
Speaker 5: important to be able to sort of have a grasp

2857
02:25:27,800 --> 02:25:31,720
Speaker 5: on is that you can't just do organizing by having

2858
02:25:31,800 --> 02:25:36,360
Speaker 5: it only be the capital, the serious thing, the captialty

2859
02:25:36,680 --> 02:25:39,240
Speaker 5: organizing thing all the time. Your organization will not hold together.

2860
02:25:39,720 --> 02:25:43,880
Speaker 5: There has to be actual like bonds formed between you

2861
02:25:44,000 --> 02:25:45,879
Speaker 5: and the people you're organizing with and the people you're

2862
02:25:45,879 --> 02:25:46,480
Speaker 5: trying to help.

2863
02:25:47,400 --> 02:25:49,359
Speaker 1: I don't want to call out any organization in particular,

2864
02:25:49,680 --> 02:25:53,000
Speaker 1: there is an organization that perceives organizing to exist solely

2865
02:25:53,040 --> 02:25:55,000
Speaker 1: in the realm of wearing a high based vest and

2866
02:25:55,160 --> 02:25:57,920
Speaker 1: carrying a clipboard and getting people to write that email

2867
02:25:57,959 --> 02:26:01,880
Speaker 1: addresses down and then telling them to attend things, and

2868
02:26:02,120 --> 02:26:04,720
Speaker 1: like maybe there are several organizations like that. I don't know,

2869
02:26:04,879 --> 02:26:07,400
Speaker 1: I've just I've perceived one locally. If you don't have

2870
02:26:07,560 --> 02:26:13,440
Speaker 1: those bonds that, like those interpersonal relationships, like these things

2871
02:26:13,600 --> 02:26:17,640
Speaker 1: won't hang together. Like yeah, so many of my happiest

2872
02:26:17,720 --> 02:26:20,720
Speaker 1: organizing memories, like again going down James Memory Lane, I

2873
02:26:20,720 --> 02:26:24,320
Speaker 1: guess I have a memory of like Christmas Eve last

2874
02:26:24,480 --> 02:26:27,400
Speaker 1: year twenty twenty three, me and my friends have been out.

2875
02:26:27,800 --> 02:26:29,120
Speaker 1: I know some of them listen because some of them

2876
02:26:29,160 --> 02:26:31,120
Speaker 1: have come across from different states to help us at

2877
02:26:31,240 --> 02:26:34,640
Speaker 1: Christmas Holidays, which is nice. And it was cold, and

2878
02:26:34,800 --> 02:26:37,480
Speaker 1: we had been feeding people all day, and then we'd

2879
02:26:37,520 --> 02:26:39,680
Speaker 1: heard some people in another location that we'd gone to find.

2880
02:26:40,120 --> 02:26:41,600
Speaker 1: And then we got to the end of the day

2881
02:26:41,640 --> 02:26:44,040
Speaker 1: and like, rather than just going home, I had a

2882
02:26:44,080 --> 02:26:47,360
Speaker 1: bunch of we had some MRIs left the refugee emory

2883
02:26:47,400 --> 02:26:49,520
Speaker 1: sort of vegan. Lots of us are vegan, so we

2884
02:26:49,680 --> 02:26:51,560
Speaker 1: were like, we're not going to find any other vegan

2885
02:26:51,600 --> 02:26:53,160
Speaker 1: food in the middle of nowhere out here, So we'll

2886
02:26:53,200 --> 02:26:56,640
Speaker 1: set around eating the little vegan MREs and like just

2887
02:26:56,760 --> 02:27:00,120
Speaker 1: talking and like sharing some some thoughts and things we

2888
02:27:00,680 --> 02:27:03,360
Speaker 1: experience over the last months of doing this, And like,

2889
02:27:04,000 --> 02:27:08,160
Speaker 1: it's those moments that make your organizing groups so much stronger.

2890
02:27:08,560 --> 02:27:09,439
Speaker 4: No one's telling.

2891
02:27:09,240 --> 02:27:12,280
Speaker 1: Anyone to do anything. You know, there's genuine bonds and

2892
02:27:12,360 --> 02:27:14,560
Speaker 1: that the love and friendship we build up between each

2893
02:27:14,560 --> 02:27:17,720
Speaker 1: other doing things that are very important. Don't overlook the

2894
02:27:17,920 --> 02:27:21,480
Speaker 1: value of those because it's extremely valuable.

2895
02:27:21,680 --> 02:27:24,359
Speaker 4: And this is something that I think you can understand

2896
02:27:24,640 --> 02:27:28,200
Speaker 4: in your own life pretty easily, where Okay, if a

2897
02:27:28,320 --> 02:27:30,800
Speaker 4: random person on the street walks up to you and

2898
02:27:30,920 --> 02:27:32,840
Speaker 4: tells you to go do something, are you going to

2899
02:27:32,920 --> 02:27:35,120
Speaker 4: do it? It's like no, why No?

2900
02:27:35,360 --> 02:27:38,480
Speaker 5: Probably not, Like I don't know, Maybe it's something like

2901
02:27:38,879 --> 02:27:41,959
Speaker 5: really sort of, hey, there's children in a burning building.

2902
02:27:42,000 --> 02:27:43,600
Speaker 5: We're going to run in and grab them. But like,

2903
02:27:44,160 --> 02:27:47,040
Speaker 5: the odds are no, you're going to ignore them. But

2904
02:27:47,200 --> 02:27:49,160
Speaker 5: if your friend goes and tells you to do the

2905
02:27:49,240 --> 02:27:52,080
Speaker 5: same thing, and you know you've been friends with them

2906
02:27:52,200 --> 02:27:54,040
Speaker 5: for a long time and you really care about them,

2907
02:27:54,200 --> 02:27:56,440
Speaker 5: the odds of you doing it are much much higher,

2908
02:27:56,959 --> 02:28:00,840
Speaker 5: and that's all organizing is. It's finding ways to You

2909
02:28:01,000 --> 02:28:02,880
Speaker 5: have a thing to do, and you go talk to

2910
02:28:02,920 --> 02:28:05,120
Speaker 5: people and you ask if they want to help you

2911
02:28:05,240 --> 02:28:07,880
Speaker 5: do it. Yeah, and the stronger your relationships are, the

2912
02:28:07,959 --> 02:28:09,879
Speaker 5: more lucky that is to happen. And that's why it's

2913
02:28:10,000 --> 02:28:12,720
Speaker 5: very important to do things like you know, just like

2914
02:28:12,800 --> 02:28:15,800
Speaker 5: having potlucks, like bringing snacks and beatings. Oh yeah, and

2915
02:28:16,080 --> 02:28:18,400
Speaker 5: like you know, even if you're doing a potluck, it's

2916
02:28:18,440 --> 02:28:21,720
Speaker 5: good to you know, you do like one capital capital

2917
02:28:21,800 --> 02:28:23,720
Speaker 5: T organizing thing, right, you get like a little bit

2918
02:28:23,760 --> 02:28:26,360
Speaker 5: of work done, but mostly everyone's just sort of relaxing

2919
02:28:26,440 --> 02:28:28,040
Speaker 5: and eating chili or whatever.

2920
02:28:28,400 --> 02:28:31,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're a baker, you know, you can bay people.

2921
02:28:32,080 --> 02:28:33,680
Speaker 4: It's a wonderful thing to God.

2922
02:28:34,200 --> 02:28:34,400
Speaker 1: Yes.

2923
02:28:35,040 --> 02:28:35,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2924
02:28:35,520 --> 02:28:37,400
Speaker 5: And just knowing how to cook. I realized I forgot

2925
02:28:37,440 --> 02:28:39,120
Speaker 5: to mention this one. Knowing how to cook is a

2926
02:28:39,560 --> 02:28:43,880
Speaker 5: staggeringly useful skill. And it's useful in literally every literally

2927
02:28:43,959 --> 02:28:46,240
Speaker 5: any kind of organizing you can possibly be. And it

2928
02:28:46,400 --> 02:28:48,280
Speaker 5: is a thing. It is a skill that is useful

2929
02:28:48,320 --> 02:28:51,080
Speaker 5: in like it's useful in war zones. It's useful like

2930
02:28:51,680 --> 02:28:54,600
Speaker 5: literally no matter what organization you are in, if you

2931
02:28:54,640 --> 02:28:57,240
Speaker 5: can cook for people, oh yeah, and you don't even

2932
02:28:57,240 --> 02:28:58,600
Speaker 5: and you don't have to be like a good cook.

2933
02:28:58,680 --> 02:29:00,640
Speaker 5: It's just like you can show up food that you

2934
02:29:00,760 --> 02:29:04,519
Speaker 5: have made. You have instantly made this whole thing more successful.

2935
02:29:05,200 --> 02:29:08,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, Like I've had some wonderful meals in wazone

2936
02:29:08,640 --> 02:29:11,760
Speaker 1: and I've deeply appreciated those people. More broadly though, those

2937
02:29:12,000 --> 02:29:15,760
Speaker 1: ties like the way we organize without the state. The

2938
02:29:15,879 --> 02:29:19,280
Speaker 1: reason I believe that that is the way we should

2939
02:29:19,400 --> 02:29:21,280
Speaker 1: organize and the way we will continue to organize in

2940
02:29:21,320 --> 02:29:23,480
Speaker 1: a way that we can make the state irrelevant is

2941
02:29:24,320 --> 02:29:27,400
Speaker 1: because we understand each other as people and care about

2942
02:29:27,400 --> 02:29:31,320
Speaker 1: each other as people, and then we approach our organizing holistically,

2943
02:29:31,480 --> 02:29:34,080
Speaker 1: right with everyone in it knowing this person is good

2944
02:29:34,120 --> 02:29:36,440
Speaker 1: at this, but they're struggling with this right now, and

2945
02:29:36,520 --> 02:29:38,000
Speaker 1: I care about them, so I'm not going to make

2946
02:29:38,000 --> 02:29:40,960
Speaker 1: them do that right now. That is how we can

2947
02:29:41,040 --> 02:29:44,200
Speaker 1: build sustainable communities in a way that state cannot and

2948
02:29:44,240 --> 02:29:48,360
Speaker 1: in a way that capitalism cannot. Right because fucking hurts

2949
02:29:48,440 --> 02:29:53,400
Speaker 1: rent a car doesn't care or know about its employees

2950
02:29:53,600 --> 02:29:55,920
Speaker 1: in a way that we who organize with people and

2951
02:29:56,040 --> 02:30:00,240
Speaker 1: care and love one another do, and like that where

2952
02:30:00,240 --> 02:30:04,080
Speaker 1: our organizations will always be stronger than those created by

2953
02:30:04,120 --> 02:30:05,119
Speaker 1: capitalism of the state.

2954
02:30:05,440 --> 02:30:08,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, unfortunately, speaking of capitalism of the state, we're taking

2955
02:30:08,160 --> 02:30:09,680
Speaker 5: our last ad break where you want.

2956
02:30:10,320 --> 02:30:12,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, hopefully it's a Trentdica.

2957
02:30:22,800 --> 02:30:23,440
Speaker 2: We are back.

2958
02:30:23,760 --> 02:30:26,480
Speaker 4: So I want to wrap things up by doing a

2959
02:30:26,560 --> 02:30:28,440
Speaker 4: couple of doing a few things.

2960
02:30:28,800 --> 02:30:31,039
Speaker 5: I want to talk about some kind of basic organizing

2961
02:30:31,320 --> 02:30:33,360
Speaker 5: things that you're going to have to do that are

2962
02:30:33,400 --> 02:30:36,400
Speaker 5: not very difficult but are extremely important. And second, I

2963
02:30:36,440 --> 02:30:38,680
Speaker 5: want to talk a bit about how we did the

2964
02:30:38,720 --> 02:30:41,240
Speaker 5: first organizing project that I ever was involved in, which

2965
02:30:41,320 --> 02:30:46,120
Speaker 5: was tenants organizing, because it's really not that hard, right,

2966
02:30:46,959 --> 02:30:49,680
Speaker 5: you just go do the thing, it will happen, Yeah,

2967
02:30:50,080 --> 02:30:52,720
Speaker 5: and suddenly it ceases to be this like, oh, this

2968
02:30:52,879 --> 02:30:54,960
Speaker 5: domain of expert knowledge, and there's like, oh, this is

2969
02:30:55,000 --> 02:30:56,680
Speaker 5: a really difficult thing. If you just I don't know,

2970
02:30:56,840 --> 02:30:59,039
Speaker 5: you go give food to someone and suddenly you've done

2971
02:30:59,080 --> 02:31:04,240
Speaker 5: that and it's happened. So there are things that are

2972
02:31:04,360 --> 02:31:08,960
Speaker 5: important to like basic organizing stuff. Knowing how to book

2973
02:31:09,160 --> 02:31:14,080
Speaker 5: rooms from like churches, from libraries, from whatever, meeting spaces,

2974
02:31:14,240 --> 02:31:17,320
Speaker 5: and also knowing how to book rooms in places that

2975
02:31:18,040 --> 02:31:22,200
Speaker 5: like accommodate disabilities is a huge thing because a lot

2976
02:31:22,280 --> 02:31:24,920
Speaker 5: of people book meetings in places are a wheelchair accessible

2977
02:31:25,000 --> 02:31:28,080
Speaker 5: and it's a fucking fiasco. And you can avoid that

2978
02:31:28,200 --> 02:31:31,160
Speaker 5: very easily, but you have to put a little tiny

2979
02:31:31,240 --> 02:31:32,080
Speaker 5: bit of work into it.

2980
02:31:32,360 --> 02:31:32,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2981
02:31:32,720 --> 02:31:34,720
Speaker 1: Literally, I reached out to a friend to book a

2982
02:31:34,800 --> 02:31:37,520
Speaker 1: room last night because I knew they would get at

2983
02:31:37,560 --> 02:31:37,920
Speaker 1: that stuff.

2984
02:31:38,320 --> 02:31:40,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, there's arranging people's schedules, getting people show

2985
02:31:41,000 --> 02:31:42,880
Speaker 5: up for stuff, Things you can do to prepare if

2986
02:31:42,920 --> 02:31:46,039
Speaker 5: what you're doing is basically all the things we've been describing, right,

2987
02:31:46,120 --> 02:31:48,080
Speaker 5: getting together a bunch of people to do a thing

2988
02:31:48,640 --> 02:31:52,199
Speaker 5: that is technically forming an organization. Yeah, Now, how formal

2989
02:31:52,320 --> 02:31:53,880
Speaker 5: informat you want it to be, or just you know,

2990
02:31:54,000 --> 02:31:56,680
Speaker 5: maybe it's just your organizing project or whatever. There's things

2991
02:31:56,720 --> 02:31:58,880
Speaker 5: you usually want. You want some kind of email so

2992
02:31:58,920 --> 02:32:02,000
Speaker 5: people can contact you in tandem with the email. Something

2993
02:32:02,040 --> 02:32:04,320
Speaker 5: that's very helpful that I think younger people tend not

2994
02:32:04,400 --> 02:32:07,560
Speaker 5: to think about is getting Google Voice. Yes, when Google

2995
02:32:07,640 --> 02:32:10,200
Speaker 5: Voice lets you set up a voicemail account so people

2996
02:32:10,240 --> 02:32:12,880
Speaker 5: can call you and leave phone messages. I mean everyone

2997
02:32:12,920 --> 02:32:15,000
Speaker 5: should just do this because this is the way that

2998
02:32:15,080 --> 02:32:16,800
Speaker 5: a lot of older people communicate.

2999
02:32:16,879 --> 02:32:17,000
Speaker 1: Right.

3000
02:32:17,000 --> 02:32:18,520
Speaker 5: They won't send you an email, but they will leave

3001
02:32:18,520 --> 02:32:20,800
Speaker 5: you a voice message, and it's very very useful for this.

3002
02:32:22,000 --> 02:32:24,840
Speaker 5: Childcare is something that's important. I did, I mean a

3003
02:32:24,920 --> 02:32:26,680
Speaker 5: lot is probably too strong of a word, but like

3004
02:32:26,760 --> 02:32:30,200
Speaker 5: I did childcare when I was organizing, and it wound

3005
02:32:30,280 --> 02:32:32,039
Speaker 5: up being really helpful because there's a lot of people

3006
02:32:32,120 --> 02:32:34,440
Speaker 5: with kids, and so you know, there's a couple of

3007
02:32:34,480 --> 02:32:36,120
Speaker 5: ways that this could work. One is that you know,

3008
02:32:36,240 --> 02:32:37,960
Speaker 5: you have everyone bring their kids. You have like a

3009
02:32:38,000 --> 02:32:40,200
Speaker 5: little space, you bring them like coloring stuff, you bring

3010
02:32:40,240 --> 02:32:42,200
Speaker 5: them toys, you bring them games, and you just sort

3011
02:32:42,200 --> 02:32:45,680
Speaker 5: of watch everyone for a while. And as an organizing thing. Again,

3012
02:32:45,680 --> 02:32:49,560
Speaker 5: if you're good with kids, that's very useful, staggeringly useful

3013
02:32:49,680 --> 02:32:50,400
Speaker 5: organizing skill.

3014
02:32:50,600 --> 02:32:50,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3015
02:32:51,040 --> 02:32:52,879
Speaker 4: Another way this stuff happens.

3016
02:32:52,720 --> 02:32:55,520
Speaker 5: Is you know, everyone pulls together ten bucks and you

3017
02:32:55,640 --> 02:32:58,280
Speaker 5: hire a babysitter, Yeah, for a bunch of kids. And

3018
02:32:58,360 --> 02:33:00,600
Speaker 5: that's a very useful organized thing.

3019
02:33:01,000 --> 02:33:03,680
Speaker 4: Yeah. I organize with people who have kids.

3020
02:33:03,879 --> 02:33:08,200
Speaker 1: I remember four years ago, fuck me twenty twenty a

3021
02:33:08,280 --> 02:33:11,600
Speaker 1: long time ago, and also yesterday, but like we were

3022
02:33:11,720 --> 02:33:14,360
Speaker 1: organizing to feed and house people and we were having

3023
02:33:14,400 --> 02:33:17,120
Speaker 1: a big Thanksgiving dinner and like some of my friends

3024
02:33:17,160 --> 02:33:20,120
Speaker 1: have very young children and they bought them. And I

3025
02:33:20,200 --> 02:33:23,080
Speaker 1: think it's actually really cool to do that. A like

3026
02:33:23,840 --> 02:33:28,600
Speaker 1: for those kids, it is normal that, like we look

3027
02:33:28,640 --> 02:33:30,640
Speaker 1: after people in our community. This is what we do

3028
02:33:30,840 --> 02:33:32,760
Speaker 1: and ever since I've been little, this is what we did.

3029
02:33:33,200 --> 02:33:36,520
Speaker 1: And like it's also very nice for people. Like a

3030
02:33:36,600 --> 02:33:38,560
Speaker 1: lot of my friends also brought their children down to

3031
02:33:38,640 --> 02:33:41,120
Speaker 1: the border, especially last year when we had because there

3032
02:33:41,160 --> 02:33:44,160
Speaker 1: were children there anyway, right, Yeah, some of my friends

3033
02:33:44,160 --> 02:33:46,440
Speaker 1: who bring their children down and their kids would play

3034
02:33:46,480 --> 02:33:48,920
Speaker 1: with the other kids, and like it doesn't matter that

3035
02:33:49,040 --> 02:33:50,840
Speaker 1: some of the kids are Kurdish and some of the

3036
02:33:50,920 --> 02:33:52,360
Speaker 1: kids are from China and some of them are from

3037
02:33:52,400 --> 02:33:54,400
Speaker 1: Columbia or whatever. Like, they'll get along just fine. When

3038
02:33:54,400 --> 02:33:56,840
Speaker 1: they're four or five years old, they don't care. They

3039
02:33:56,840 --> 02:33:58,600
Speaker 1: just want to kick a ball or see a Teddy

3040
02:33:58,640 --> 02:34:01,200
Speaker 1: Bear or something. Yeah, I think it's really good for

3041
02:34:01,320 --> 02:34:03,800
Speaker 1: your children to you know, you're bringing them into a

3042
02:34:03,879 --> 02:34:08,400
Speaker 1: world which is cruel and at times unequal, and like

3043
02:34:08,720 --> 02:34:11,320
Speaker 1: your kids seeing that, like we can make a difference

3044
02:34:11,360 --> 02:34:13,920
Speaker 1: and we can do this. I think it's one of

3045
02:34:13,959 --> 02:34:15,680
Speaker 1: the best educations you can give your children.

3046
02:34:16,000 --> 02:34:19,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's something that's good for everyone involved.

3047
02:34:19,879 --> 02:34:22,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And it's also very I think one of

3048
02:34:22,560 --> 02:34:24,400
Speaker 1: the things I see a lot wh people are organizing

3049
02:34:24,440 --> 02:34:26,960
Speaker 1: thing with refugees of the end house is like they're

3050
02:34:27,120 --> 02:34:29,600
Speaker 1: just people, Like you don't need to be afraid of them,

3051
02:34:29,840 --> 02:34:33,760
Speaker 1: Like they don't want to hurt your children. And having

3052
02:34:33,800 --> 02:34:36,680
Speaker 1: your children around shows that, like you have grasped they're

3053
02:34:36,800 --> 02:34:38,800
Speaker 1: just people and that you feel safe and your children

3054
02:34:38,840 --> 02:34:41,120
Speaker 1: are safe around them. And I think that that's valuable too.

3055
02:34:41,120 --> 02:34:44,160
Speaker 1: You're giving both parties some dignity in that moment.

3056
02:34:44,560 --> 02:34:47,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are some other very basic things that I

3057
02:34:47,760 --> 02:34:50,080
Speaker 5: think are very important. If you've never done this before,

3058
02:34:50,840 --> 02:34:52,400
Speaker 5: I'm going to talk a little bit about how you

3059
02:34:52,560 --> 02:34:55,200
Speaker 5: run a meeting. Yeah, and you would think that this

3060
02:34:55,320 --> 02:34:58,360
Speaker 5: doesn't matter, and until you watch a group of one

3061
02:34:58,440 --> 02:35:00,480
Speaker 5: hundred people who don't know how to do this attempt

3062
02:35:00,520 --> 02:35:02,959
Speaker 5: to get anything done and they it just is a fiasco.

3063
02:35:03,080 --> 02:35:05,400
Speaker 5: And this is even true sort of smaller groups. Yeah,

3064
02:35:05,879 --> 02:35:07,280
Speaker 5: so I'm going to give you how to run a

3065
02:35:07,360 --> 02:35:11,120
Speaker 5: meeting one oh one, Okay. A very common way to

3066
02:35:11,280 --> 02:35:13,600
Speaker 5: organize meetings that people use all over the world and

3067
02:35:13,680 --> 02:35:15,720
Speaker 5: it's very effective is you have two things. You have

3068
02:35:15,800 --> 02:35:18,240
Speaker 5: an agenda and you have a stack. And those are

3069
02:35:18,320 --> 02:35:20,800
Speaker 5: like the technical terms for them. The agenda I mean

3070
02:35:20,959 --> 02:35:22,680
Speaker 5: is an agenda, right, you know what an agenda is.

3071
02:35:22,879 --> 02:35:24,440
Speaker 5: You put the things that you need to do on it.

3072
02:35:25,080 --> 02:35:27,400
Speaker 5: And another thing that's very helpful with these is you

3073
02:35:27,480 --> 02:35:29,680
Speaker 5: know you're going to be operating at our time constraints

3074
02:35:29,720 --> 02:35:31,800
Speaker 5: because people don't have forty five hours.

3075
02:35:31,560 --> 02:35:33,280
Speaker 4: To be in meetings, and my god, you don't want

3076
02:35:33,280 --> 02:35:35,880
Speaker 4: to be in a meeting for that long. Yeah, you know.

3077
02:35:36,040 --> 02:35:38,680
Speaker 5: Knowing how long roughly you want to talk about these

3078
02:35:38,760 --> 02:35:41,920
Speaker 5: things is very very useful and making sure that you're

3079
02:35:42,160 --> 02:35:44,960
Speaker 5: of moving the conversation through the stuff on the agenda

3080
02:35:45,000 --> 02:35:46,720
Speaker 5: because you have more stuff you need to talk about.

3081
02:35:47,560 --> 02:35:50,279
Speaker 5: All of this again, like this all sounds very obvious,

3082
02:35:50,480 --> 02:35:52,879
Speaker 5: and again you know how to do it, but until

3083
02:35:52,920 --> 02:35:56,000
Speaker 5: you've been in a room where people have not realized

3084
02:35:56,000 --> 02:35:58,080
Speaker 5: they need to do this, you don't understand how.

3085
02:35:58,040 --> 02:36:01,440
Speaker 4: I'm put on this stuff yet pain of it not happening.

3086
02:36:01,560 --> 02:36:04,360
Speaker 5: God, I have watched rooms full of like sciet these

3087
02:36:04,400 --> 02:36:06,720
Speaker 5: are like professional scientists, right, So this is the entire

3088
02:36:06,840 --> 02:36:08,880
Speaker 5: room of one hundred feet of people with physics PhDs

3089
02:36:09,120 --> 02:36:10,879
Speaker 5: who don't know how to run a meeting, and it's

3090
02:36:11,080 --> 02:36:13,240
Speaker 5: a shit show. And all of this stuff could have

3091
02:36:13,280 --> 02:36:15,400
Speaker 5: been avoided with with some very very simple things.

3092
02:36:15,760 --> 02:36:15,960
Speaker 4: Yes.

3093
02:36:16,160 --> 02:36:18,720
Speaker 5: The other thing, and this is genuinely a piece of

3094
02:36:18,800 --> 02:36:22,520
Speaker 5: social technology, right, it is the stack It is very simple, right.

3095
02:36:22,600 --> 02:36:25,040
Speaker 5: You have one person who is the stack keeper, and

3096
02:36:25,120 --> 02:36:27,040
Speaker 5: whatsone wants to talk. You have one person talking at

3097
02:36:27,080 --> 02:36:29,080
Speaker 5: a time, and what someone wants to talk, they raise

3098
02:36:29,120 --> 02:36:31,160
Speaker 5: their hand, they make some kind of signal to the

3099
02:36:31,200 --> 02:36:33,960
Speaker 5: stack keeper, and that person writes their name down, and

3100
02:36:34,160 --> 02:36:35,960
Speaker 5: so you now have a list of who gets to

3101
02:36:36,040 --> 02:36:38,400
Speaker 5: talk in what order. And so you go down the

3102
02:36:38,480 --> 02:36:42,200
Speaker 5: list and people get the say things. And again you

3103
02:36:42,560 --> 02:36:44,400
Speaker 5: know how to do this. This is not like a

3104
02:36:44,480 --> 02:36:47,960
Speaker 5: complicated thing. But again I have watched people who collectively

3105
02:36:48,080 --> 02:36:51,640
Speaker 5: have like more PhDs than like I earn money in

3106
02:36:51,720 --> 02:36:55,480
Speaker 5: a week, Like who know, I can not be.

3107
02:36:55,560 --> 02:36:58,120
Speaker 4: Able to pick this out, and you do. I believe

3108
02:36:58,160 --> 02:36:59,840
Speaker 4: in you. I believe in you, dear listener.

3109
02:37:00,280 --> 02:37:02,720
Speaker 5: But you could do this. Yeah, there's a very common

3110
02:37:02,879 --> 02:37:05,480
Speaker 5: Sometimes this is one person and sometimes this is two people.

3111
02:37:06,160 --> 02:37:07,400
Speaker 5: A very common way to do it is to have

3112
02:37:07,440 --> 02:37:09,959
Speaker 5: a stack taker and then have someone who's the facilitator.

3113
02:37:10,000 --> 02:37:12,680
Speaker 5: And the facilitator's job is to call on the people

3114
02:37:13,280 --> 02:37:15,960
Speaker 5: and to try to like move the conversation forwards and

3115
02:37:16,120 --> 02:37:18,400
Speaker 5: get and make sure make sure everyone's involved. And also

3116
02:37:18,480 --> 02:37:20,440
Speaker 5: another important part of this, and this is again something

3117
02:37:20,520 --> 02:37:23,520
Speaker 5: you'll know from your stupid work meetings, is you have

3118
02:37:23,640 --> 02:37:25,039
Speaker 5: to get people like me to shut up.

3119
02:37:25,640 --> 02:37:28,360
Speaker 4: Your meetings can't just be one person giving a speech.

3120
02:37:28,640 --> 02:37:30,560
Speaker 4: You have to cut them the fuck off and you

3121
02:37:30,720 --> 02:37:33,760
Speaker 4: have to get to the next person. Yeah, and doing

3122
02:37:33,840 --> 02:37:36,360
Speaker 4: that courteously is a skill. Yeah. Yeah.

3123
02:37:36,640 --> 02:37:39,240
Speaker 5: And finally on this note, there's a lot of if

3124
02:37:39,240 --> 02:37:41,480
Speaker 5: you want to go into the like more technical stuff,

3125
02:37:42,160 --> 02:37:44,640
Speaker 5: part of the things the facilitators use and part of

3126
02:37:46,120 --> 02:37:48,280
Speaker 5: you know, the formal name for this is like the

3127
02:37:48,320 --> 02:37:51,240
Speaker 5: progressive stack, but it's just a thing that's very useful

3128
02:37:51,280 --> 02:37:53,440
Speaker 5: in organizing is you want to make sure everyone in

3129
02:37:53,520 --> 02:37:56,720
Speaker 5: a room is engaged and talking and that it's not

3130
02:37:57,080 --> 02:38:00,280
Speaker 5: just three people who talk all the time. Yeah, and

3131
02:38:00,480 --> 02:38:02,240
Speaker 5: you know, and so the idea of the progressive stack,

3132
02:38:02,320 --> 02:38:04,440
Speaker 5: right is you're trying to find the most marginalized people

3133
02:38:04,440 --> 02:38:06,560
Speaker 5: in degrees, people who are least likely to speak, and

3134
02:38:06,680 --> 02:38:09,120
Speaker 5: you're trying to get them in first. And sometimes this

3135
02:38:09,240 --> 02:38:11,560
Speaker 5: is literally just like, hey, someone hasn't been talking in

3136
02:38:11,600 --> 02:38:13,080
Speaker 5: a meeting this whole time, and you can like ask

3137
02:38:13,120 --> 02:38:14,640
Speaker 5: them what they think about something or asked if they

3138
02:38:14,680 --> 02:38:17,240
Speaker 5: have anything to say, and a lot of times they will,

3139
02:38:17,640 --> 02:38:19,520
Speaker 5: but they just don't feel confident enough to say it.

3140
02:38:19,640 --> 02:38:21,800
Speaker 5: And this is this is a very very important skill

3141
02:38:21,920 --> 02:38:23,880
Speaker 5: for a facilitator or just even you could just do

3142
02:38:23,959 --> 02:38:26,720
Speaker 5: this in a meeting too, right, Like you can be

3143
02:38:26,800 --> 02:38:28,480
Speaker 5: the person who goes like, hey, do you have this

3144
02:38:28,600 --> 02:38:31,320
Speaker 5: this person have anything to contribute? And that is an

3145
02:38:31,480 --> 02:38:33,920
Speaker 5: enormous thing. Sometimes it can be you know, sometimes it

3146
02:38:33,959 --> 02:38:36,120
Speaker 5: can be a little bit awkward, but it's a very

3147
02:38:36,160 --> 02:38:39,879
Speaker 5: important thing because you're just losing out on people who

3148
02:38:39,920 --> 02:38:44,120
Speaker 5: have really really valuable ideas and contributions and plans. And

3149
02:38:44,720 --> 02:38:48,160
Speaker 5: if you just let the same three people give speeches,

3150
02:38:48,800 --> 02:38:51,920
Speaker 5: you can't get to the stuff that's actually useful.

3151
02:38:52,480 --> 02:38:55,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, if you've been a teacher or in any

3152
02:38:55,920 --> 02:38:58,160
Speaker 1: way what you know, you probably have had you have

3153
02:38:58,320 --> 02:39:00,880
Speaker 1: this skill. You might not consider it a skill, but

3154
02:39:01,000 --> 02:39:03,000
Speaker 1: even if you've been a TA in grad school something

3155
02:39:03,040 --> 02:39:04,480
Speaker 1: like that, you probably know how to do this.

3156
02:39:05,120 --> 02:39:08,520
Speaker 5: Yeah. So I'm going to put all of this together briefly,

3157
02:39:08,560 --> 02:39:11,480
Speaker 5: and I'm going to run through basically how we started

3158
02:39:11,520 --> 02:39:13,400
Speaker 5: the first organizing project I ever day, which was a

3159
02:39:13,480 --> 02:39:16,800
Speaker 5: tenants union in Chicago. Okay, so this is based on

3160
02:39:16,879 --> 02:39:18,880
Speaker 5: my memory. It's been a long time since I did this,

3161
02:39:19,160 --> 02:39:22,400
Speaker 5: but my basic memory of what we did was okay.

3162
02:39:22,520 --> 02:39:24,760
Speaker 5: So one of my friends is an experienced organizer. I

3163
02:39:25,000 --> 02:39:27,360
Speaker 5: was like a tiny baby, right this this was my

3164
02:39:27,480 --> 02:39:29,320
Speaker 5: first offline organizing project ever.

3165
02:39:29,520 --> 02:39:30,640
Speaker 4: Right, I had no idea what was doing.

3166
02:39:30,680 --> 02:39:33,879
Speaker 5: I thought I was a guy, which, like, that's how

3167
02:39:33,959 --> 02:39:36,440
Speaker 5: much of a fiasco, Like little tidy baby bo who

3168
02:39:36,440 --> 02:39:37,199
Speaker 5: doesn't know anything?

3169
02:39:37,320 --> 02:39:38,560
Speaker 4: This was, you know.

3170
02:39:38,720 --> 02:39:41,160
Speaker 5: And so my friend talked to some people that he knew,

3171
02:39:41,320 --> 02:39:43,160
Speaker 5: and he knew that I, you know, I was interested

3172
02:39:43,200 --> 02:39:45,760
Speaker 5: in getting involved in tennis organizing, and we like went

3173
02:39:45,800 --> 02:39:49,160
Speaker 5: to a cafe and we sat down and we ate

3174
02:39:49,320 --> 02:39:51,560
Speaker 5: and we just talked about what we wanted to do,

3175
02:39:51,760 --> 02:39:53,760
Speaker 5: what our plans were, what things we needed to do

3176
02:39:54,560 --> 02:39:57,960
Speaker 5: to get this organization set up. We talked about ideological stuff.

3177
02:39:57,959 --> 02:40:00,360
Speaker 5: And that's actually is something else important too, is part

3178
02:40:00,400 --> 02:40:03,200
Speaker 5: of organizing is getting people to think intentionally about their

3179
02:40:03,240 --> 02:40:08,360
Speaker 5: actions and think politically about their actions. Yeah, and that's

3180
02:40:08,400 --> 02:40:10,080
Speaker 5: something that's very useful. You also have to make sure

3181
02:40:10,080 --> 02:40:12,199
Speaker 5: that you're not forming a book club. Like book clubs

3182
02:40:12,240 --> 02:40:15,199
Speaker 5: are fine, but you need to make sure you're organizing group.

3183
02:40:15,240 --> 02:40:16,600
Speaker 5: If you try to do a thing, has it just

3184
02:40:16,640 --> 02:40:18,880
Speaker 5: become a book club? But that that's you know that

3185
02:40:19,040 --> 02:40:20,800
Speaker 5: that was something that was very useful to us. And

3186
02:40:21,120 --> 02:40:24,000
Speaker 5: you know, we started making a plan. And our plan was, okay,

3187
02:40:24,120 --> 02:40:25,879
Speaker 5: we made a bunch of flyers and then we went

3188
02:40:25,920 --> 02:40:27,520
Speaker 5: out and I did this, and I walked around through

3189
02:40:27,560 --> 02:40:29,240
Speaker 5: a bunch of streets and put them a light post

3190
02:40:29,320 --> 02:40:31,680
Speaker 5: or whatever. And then we put them like we hung

3191
02:40:31,760 --> 02:40:33,800
Speaker 5: them up in the buildings of tenants, you know, because

3192
02:40:33,800 --> 02:40:35,280
Speaker 5: you can just like walk up the stairs right and

3193
02:40:35,280 --> 02:40:36,840
Speaker 5: you need to put them on the walls. And you know,

3194
02:40:36,959 --> 02:40:40,119
Speaker 5: we had this flyer, this firehead information. This flyer said, okay,

3195
02:40:40,120 --> 02:40:42,240
Speaker 5: we're starting a tenant's union. If you have tenant, if

3196
02:40:42,280 --> 02:40:44,480
Speaker 5: you have issues with your landlord, or you want to

3197
02:40:44,520 --> 02:40:47,000
Speaker 5: talk about tenants stuff like, come here. At this time,

3198
02:40:47,120 --> 02:40:49,640
Speaker 5: we had an email you can send us stuff. We

3199
02:40:49,720 --> 02:40:51,880
Speaker 5: had a phone number that you could call ye you know,

3200
02:40:52,000 --> 02:40:54,720
Speaker 5: and so okay, and so parallel to this, we like,

3201
02:40:55,120 --> 02:40:57,120
Speaker 5: I forget if it was a church or if it

3202
02:40:57,280 --> 02:41:01,400
Speaker 5: was some building, some set center or something. We booked

3203
02:41:01,400 --> 02:41:04,480
Speaker 5: a room. We were kind of lucky in that we

3204
02:41:04,600 --> 02:41:07,680
Speaker 5: had like local press people nice who we sort of

3205
02:41:07,760 --> 02:41:09,600
Speaker 5: knew and This is another useful like if knowing a

3206
02:41:09,680 --> 02:41:11,800
Speaker 5: journalist can be a very useful skill, because one way

3207
02:41:11,840 --> 02:41:13,320
Speaker 5: to get a project off the ground, if you're trying

3208
02:41:13,360 --> 02:41:15,520
Speaker 5: to get to a bunch of people, is by finding

3209
02:41:15,600 --> 02:41:17,720
Speaker 5: a journalist who is willing to cover it, because you know,

3210
02:41:17,760 --> 02:41:19,880
Speaker 5: we're we're finding founding like the first tenants union in

3211
02:41:19,959 --> 02:41:22,360
Speaker 5: this place, right yeah, And you know, so we had

3212
02:41:22,400 --> 02:41:24,680
Speaker 5: media coverage and we got kind of screwed when this

3213
02:41:24,760 --> 02:41:26,920
Speaker 5: event eventually came together because there was like three feet

3214
02:41:26,920 --> 02:41:29,720
Speaker 5: of snow that night. But people still came, like people

3215
02:41:29,800 --> 02:41:32,000
Speaker 5: still came in the blizzard, Like a lot of people

3216
02:41:32,120 --> 02:41:32,720
Speaker 5: showed up for this.

3217
02:41:33,040 --> 02:41:33,920
Speaker 4: But what are things that we do?

3218
02:41:34,040 --> 02:41:36,119
Speaker 5: We also, like, you know, we just we just started

3219
02:41:36,120 --> 02:41:38,400
Speaker 5: talking to people, right, We started talking to tenants about

3220
02:41:38,400 --> 02:41:41,080
Speaker 5: their problems. We just you know, we talked to our friends,

3221
02:41:41,160 --> 02:41:43,280
Speaker 5: We talked to the people they knew. We ended up

3222
02:41:43,360 --> 02:41:44,840
Speaker 5: talking to someone, you know, and this is the thing

3223
02:41:44,879 --> 02:41:46,920
Speaker 5: that just happens as it spreads by word of mouth,

3224
02:41:47,360 --> 02:41:49,520
Speaker 5: right people start contacting you. We ran into a really

3225
02:41:49,680 --> 02:41:53,080
Speaker 5: long time tenants organizer in the city who had a

3226
02:41:53,080 --> 02:41:56,760
Speaker 5: bunch of incredible stories about how our corrupt politicians got

3227
02:41:56,800 --> 02:42:00,200
Speaker 5: their jobs by portraying the old Tenets organizers. Right. That's

3228
02:42:00,200 --> 02:42:01,920
Speaker 5: the other thing is you know, another thing that happens

3229
02:42:01,959 --> 02:42:03,880
Speaker 5: in projects is you'll you'll sometimes you'll just you just

3230
02:42:03,959 --> 02:42:06,440
Speaker 5: pick up someone who's you know, has been doing this

3231
02:42:06,520 --> 02:42:09,240
Speaker 5: since like the sixties. Yeah, and it rules because they

3232
02:42:09,280 --> 02:42:11,400
Speaker 5: have a wealth of experience and they want to they

3233
02:42:11,440 --> 02:42:12,080
Speaker 5: want to do stuff.

3234
02:42:13,000 --> 02:42:14,320
Speaker 4: We plotted out what we were.

3235
02:42:14,280 --> 02:42:15,720
Speaker 5: Going to do at our meeting, you know, we were

3236
02:42:15,720 --> 02:42:17,360
Speaker 5: going to do some political education. We were gonna have

3237
02:42:17,360 --> 02:42:19,200
Speaker 5: a bunch of time for people to talk about stuff,

3238
02:42:19,200 --> 02:42:21,720
Speaker 5: and we were gonna, you know, get get people to

3239
02:42:21,800 --> 02:42:24,600
Speaker 5: understand what we were doing how they can start organizing.

3240
02:42:25,320 --> 02:42:28,520
Speaker 5: And then we did it, and I unfortunately don't remember

3241
02:42:28,600 --> 02:42:30,160
Speaker 5: much of what we talked about because I was off

3242
02:42:30,160 --> 02:42:32,119
Speaker 5: in another room taking care of a bunch of people's kids,

3243
02:42:32,560 --> 02:42:34,640
Speaker 5: which was very nice, but I don't I don't remember

3244
02:42:34,680 --> 02:42:36,000
Speaker 5: what we talked about. But like that, you know, but

3245
02:42:36,120 --> 02:42:38,840
Speaker 5: like you all of those things, right, all of those

3246
02:42:38,879 --> 02:42:41,720
Speaker 5: steps from the start of you get five of your

3247
02:42:41,760 --> 02:42:44,080
Speaker 5: friends to go eat dinner and you talk about what

3248
02:42:44,160 --> 02:42:47,400
Speaker 5: you want to do through someone makes a flyer in

3249
02:42:47,720 --> 02:42:51,000
Speaker 5: like Microsoft or whatever you make it in like PowerPoint,

3250
02:42:51,640 --> 02:42:53,880
Speaker 5: and that's publisher what's what's what's the one I'm blinking,

3251
02:42:53,920 --> 02:42:56,640
Speaker 5: I haven't used it in so long, the one you

3252
02:42:56,720 --> 02:43:03,280
Speaker 5: make greeting cards in a program and I've forgotten it

3253
02:43:03,560 --> 02:43:06,080
Speaker 5: is you see this to make Christmas cars. But like,

3254
02:43:06,160 --> 02:43:08,040
Speaker 5: you know, okay, so we made a flyer and we

3255
02:43:08,120 --> 02:43:10,320
Speaker 5: walked around and put the flyers up and we made it.

3256
02:43:10,400 --> 02:43:13,040
Speaker 5: We made an email, you know, we got a space together,

3257
02:43:13,160 --> 02:43:15,560
Speaker 5: we figured out what we wanted to do, and then

3258
02:43:15,600 --> 02:43:17,480
Speaker 5: we did it. Yeah, and you know, and there's a

3259
02:43:17,480 --> 02:43:20,040
Speaker 5: bunch of organizing from there, right, But like we had

3260
02:43:20,080 --> 02:43:22,640
Speaker 5: started a thing, and you can do every single one

3261
02:43:22,680 --> 02:43:24,840
Speaker 5: of those steps. And if you can't personally do one

3262
02:43:24,840 --> 02:43:27,400
Speaker 5: of those steps, you can think of a person who

3263
02:43:27,520 --> 02:43:29,360
Speaker 5: you know, who you can bring in to help you

3264
02:43:29,440 --> 02:43:32,760
Speaker 5: do these things. Because organizing you already fucking know how

3265
02:43:32,800 --> 02:43:34,560
Speaker 5: to do it. Yeah, you just have to go out

3266
02:43:34,560 --> 02:43:34,960
Speaker 5: there and do it.

3267
02:43:35,560 --> 02:43:39,720
Speaker 4: Yep, you can have faith. Yeah, and this has been

3268
02:43:39,760 --> 02:43:41,880
Speaker 4: it could happen here, go organize.

3269
02:43:45,520 --> 02:43:48,640
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3270
02:43:48,760 --> 02:43:50,640
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3271
02:43:51,160 --> 02:43:53,640
Speaker 4: It could happen here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3272
02:43:53,840 --> 02:43:56,880
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3273
02:43:57,000 --> 02:43:59,480
Speaker 3: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

3274
02:43:59,520 --> 02:44:04,000
Speaker 3: iHeart Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You

3275
02:44:04,040 --> 02:44:06,160
Speaker 3: can now find sources for it could happen here, listed

3276
02:44:06,200 --> 02:44:08,840
Speaker 3: directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.