WEBVTT - After Ceuta 0:00:02.490 --> 0:00:09.180 Hello, everyone, and welcome to It Could Happen Here. My 0:00:09.220 --> 0:00:11.600 name is Dana El-Kurd. I'm a researcher and analyst of 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:15.360 Arab and Palestinian politics. Today on the podcast, I'm speaking 0:00:15.380 --> 0:00:18.160 with Harsha Walia, who is an activist and writer based 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:22.060 in Canada. Her book, Border and Rule, Global Migration, Capitalism, 0:00:22.100 --> 0:00:24.360 and the Rise of Racist Nationalism, I think is essential 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:26.160 reading for all of us who are concerned with the 0:00:26.850 --> 0:00:30.490 Rise of Fascism and its connection to anti-immigrant sentiment and 0:00:30.510 --> 0:00:32.890 narratives that are taking root in a lot of our societies. 0:00:33.590 --> 0:00:36.530 I spoke with Harsha about the, for lack of a 0:00:36.530 --> 0:00:40.260 better term, incident that happened in the Spanish enclave of 0:00:40.340 --> 0:00:43.540 Ceuta on the tip of Morocco exactly a month ago. 0:00:43.780 --> 0:00:47.820 So we recorded this podcast on September 10th. A month ago, exactly, 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:51.520 I think something like 70,000 migrants attempted to cross over 0:00:51.540 --> 0:00:54.720 into the Spanish enclave to seek refuge in the European continent. 0:00:55.290 --> 0:00:57.550 Some of these migrants were from Morocco, but many were not. 0:00:58.210 --> 0:01:01.720 And there was a huge outrage and backlash against migrants 0:01:01.900 --> 0:01:04.900 and against what happened there from the left and the right, 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.979 as we'll discuss in the interview. So I spoke with 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:12.000 Harsha about what the implications of these arguments have been 0:01:12.020 --> 0:01:16.300 and how do we understand this anti-immigrant sentiment that, again, 0:01:16.340 --> 0:01:19.959 sometimes comes both from the right and the left. So 0:01:20.140 --> 0:01:23.690 I hope that this is a useful interview and useful 0:01:23.730 --> 0:01:27.490 for some of us who are trying to center migration 0:01:27.730 --> 0:01:32.630 and freedom of movement in our struggle against fascism. Without 0:01:32.650 --> 0:01:38.690 further ado, here's Harsha Walia. So I'd like to start 0:01:38.750 --> 0:01:43.140 with maybe just a brief summary for our listeners since 0:01:43.540 --> 0:01:46.430 the world is on fire and things move quickly. About 0:01:46.450 --> 0:01:50.010 what happened last month in Ceuta. I think I'm pronouncing 0:01:50.030 --> 0:01:50.630 that correctly. 0:01:51.070 --> 0:01:53.850 Yeah. And it's almost exactly to the day. It's been 0:01:53.850 --> 0:01:57.500 30 days. And so what happened a month ago is 0:01:57.530 --> 0:02:03.820 approximately 70,000 migrants from Morocco. And here it's important to say, 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.320 you know, migrants came from Morocco, but not all the 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:10.919 migrants were Moroccan because, of course, Morocco is one of 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:15.500 many transit routes that for migrants looking to come through 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:19.760 the Mediterranean into Europe. And so the 70,000 migrants who 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.090 came from Morocco were not only Moroccan migrants, but included 0:02:23.150 --> 0:02:28.770 migrants from Sudan, Mali, Yemen, Gaza, Palestine, 48, and others. 0:02:29.270 --> 0:02:35.160 And so what happened is 70,000 migrants transited into Ceuta. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.520 And Ceuta is also a transit point into the EU. 0:02:40.100 --> 0:02:45.030 Ceuta is one of the Spanish-held enclaves in Moroccan territory 0:02:45.050 --> 0:02:49.769 and has long been held by Spain and is claimed 0:02:49.850 --> 0:02:53.410 by Spain despite being on the continent of Africa. And 0:02:53.450 --> 0:02:57.410 because it is under formal Spanish jurisdiction, a lot of 0:02:57.470 --> 0:03:01.130 migrants looking to come into the EU have transited through 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.840 the enclaves, as they're called. So Ceuta and Melilla. Another 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.220 one is the Canary Islands. You know, since the 1990s, 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.880 this has been one of the major routes of migration. 0:03:12.020 --> 0:03:16.880 And so while it may seem incredibly significant and spectacular, 0:03:16.940 --> 0:03:20.389 which it was because of the scale, The fact that 0:03:20.450 --> 0:03:23.850 Ceuta and Melilla are transit points into the EU for 0:03:23.889 --> 0:03:27.070 migrants is part of a very long and ongoing trajectory. 0:03:27.610 --> 0:03:29.850 And so what we saw, particularly because of the scale 0:03:29.870 --> 0:03:34.400 of 70,000 people crossing into Ceuta was, you know, this 0:03:34.540 --> 0:03:40.360 global kind of uproar that frankly came from many parts, 0:03:40.820 --> 0:03:42.540 you know, came of course from the right where the 0:03:42.620 --> 0:03:46.690 right and, you know, nationalists across the spectrum. So the 0:03:46.730 --> 0:03:50.830 far right, but also conservatives and at a global scale, right? 0:03:50.850 --> 0:03:53.780 So not just in Europe, but also in the United 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:57.100 States and elsewhere. This fed into, of course, the perfect 0:03:57.220 --> 0:04:01.640 anti-migrant storm that far-right and fascist and conservative forces are 0:04:01.860 --> 0:04:05.540 always fueling. But also we saw a lot of, I 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:11.440 would argue, misinformation from many leftist commentators who arguably actually 0:04:11.540 --> 0:04:14.720 used a lot of right-wing rhetoric to claim that this 0:04:14.780 --> 0:04:19.750 was an attack on Spain because of Spain's very vocal 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.940 position in support of Palestine. And so this created really 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:28.539 a perfect storm for a lot of misinformation across the spectrum, 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.200 particularly for people who had frankly never even heard of 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.279 Ceuta before. And so this is kind of what happened 0:04:34.339 --> 0:04:38.120 both in terms of the really significant scale of migration 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.120 that took place, but also what we saw after in 0:04:41.140 --> 0:04:43.030 terms of how people responded to this moment. 0:04:43.860 --> 0:04:45.600 Thank you for setting it up that way. What does 0:04:45.620 --> 0:04:48.540 that get into for me of interest is the leftist 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.800 misinformation that we saw all over the Internet. But before 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:54.340 I get into kind of some of the details of 0:04:54.380 --> 0:04:57.240 the aftermath, I also just want to kind of break down. 0:04:57.339 --> 0:04:59.780 Why did migrants think this was a good time to 0:04:59.820 --> 0:05:00.320 try to make. 0:05:00.220 --> 0:05:00.640 It to Europe? 0:05:00.779 --> 0:05:01.740 Like why in this scale? 0:05:02.339 --> 0:05:04.400 Yeah, it's a it's a good question. And, you know, 0:05:04.430 --> 0:05:06.830 I think a lot of what's happening is frankly still 0:05:06.870 --> 0:05:09.480 being pieced together. Because, you know, one of the things 0:05:09.500 --> 0:05:12.020 that we did see in the aftermath was a lot of, 0:05:12.020 --> 0:05:16.099 you know, clipping and hypotheses. And there are still people 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.640 on the ground who are talking to migrants to find out, 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.929 you know, why did you make this journey at this moment? 0:05:22.110 --> 0:05:26.030 What is the circulation of information that was happening? So 0:05:26.050 --> 0:05:28.050 a lot of that is still coming out, which I 0:05:28.089 --> 0:05:30.090 think I want to emphasize because I think in like 0:05:30.130 --> 0:05:33.219 a hot take economy, we don't we aren't sitting with 0:05:33.300 --> 0:05:37.909 accurate information always. And there isn't a simple answer because again, 0:05:37.930 --> 0:05:41.750 I would emphasize that migrants who migrated in that moment, again, 0:05:41.990 --> 0:05:44.830 were coming from very different backgrounds. And by backgrounds, I 0:05:44.890 --> 0:05:48.130 don't just mean the kind of national origins that I 0:05:48.180 --> 0:05:51.160 pointed out, but many of the migrants have left, but 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.380 many of the migrants are still there. And so people 0:05:53.420 --> 0:05:56.700 were in very different situations as to why they chose 0:05:57.220 --> 0:05:59.620 to make the move in that moment. There isn't a 0:05:59.700 --> 0:06:02.500 single answer. Some of the factors that we can point 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.170 to and we can see is there was a Supreme 0:06:05.250 --> 0:06:09.710 Court decision in Spain just a few weeks prior to 0:06:10.250 --> 0:06:13.630 this mass migration in July. And so that decision was 0:06:13.690 --> 0:06:17.469 in June. And that decision was a very specific Supreme 0:06:17.589 --> 0:06:21.710 Court decision in Spain about regularization because Spain has been 0:06:22.210 --> 0:06:25.570 regularizing migrants, which has been really significant, actually, in the 0:06:25.610 --> 0:06:28.950 context of this rightward drift in the EU that has 0:06:28.990 --> 0:06:33.070 been escalating. Spain's regularization program was significant. And there was 0:06:33.110 --> 0:06:36.870 a Supreme Court decision associated with that about travel and 0:06:36.890 --> 0:06:39.490 travel routes. To kind of put it simply, what we 0:06:39.550 --> 0:06:45.480 saw is several misinterpretations of that Supreme Court decision that 0:06:45.500 --> 0:06:48.659 started to circulate. And, you know, for anyone who is 0:06:48.860 --> 0:06:53.520 familiar or who has family who has been looking to migrate, 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.440 you know, from all of the many situations and horrors 0:06:56.460 --> 0:07:00.380 around the world, we know that you know, information travels fast. 0:07:00.420 --> 0:07:02.260 So one of the kind of conspiracy theories is like, 0:07:02.300 --> 0:07:06.190 there's no way 70,000 people would have all gotten access 0:07:06.210 --> 0:07:09.550 to the same information. And frankly, that is a complete 0:07:09.610 --> 0:07:16.040 misunderstanding of how diasporic communities and communities who are immobilized, 0:07:16.060 --> 0:07:19.220 who are looking to migrate, how information travels. 0:07:19.260 --> 0:07:20.080 Travels much wider. 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:24.180 Travels much wider. Many of the WhatsApp groups, for example, 0:07:24.580 --> 0:07:27.240 that in this situation people were referencing, there was at 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.930 least two groups that had almost 200,000 people on the 0:07:30.970 --> 0:07:34.050 WhatsApp groups. Yeah, yeah. And this is not a conspiracy theory, 0:07:34.090 --> 0:07:37.870 because actually, coincidentally, yesterday, a number of declassified documents were 0:07:37.910 --> 0:07:41.670 released by Spain. And so these Spanish documents revealed that 0:07:41.690 --> 0:07:44.530 there were some of these WhatsApp groups had almost 200,000 0:07:44.530 --> 0:07:47.170 people on each of them. And so if you think 0:07:47.210 --> 0:07:49.450 about it, that's just a fraction of the people, you know. 0:07:49.510 --> 0:07:52.690 So the issue is not how information travels. It's just 0:07:52.830 --> 0:07:55.710 whether people choose to act on that information, how verified 0:07:55.750 --> 0:07:59.250 they think that information is. And so that was significant. 0:07:59.810 --> 0:08:03.150 The misinterpretation of the Supreme Court decision bolstered a lot 0:08:03.170 --> 0:08:05.310 of these WhatsApp groups to think like actually now is 0:08:05.370 --> 0:08:05.850 the moment. 0:08:06.070 --> 0:08:06.230 Right. 0:08:06.610 --> 0:08:09.309 Actually, just yesterday, the information that I was referencing actually 0:08:09.370 --> 0:08:13.650 suggested that the Spanish government was told by Spanish intelligence 0:08:14.150 --> 0:08:17.690 that there was going to be some significant movement in July, 0:08:17.870 --> 0:08:21.550 in mid-July. Okay. Because of access to these WhatsApp groups. 0:08:21.750 --> 0:08:21.950 Mm-hmm. 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.070 And we know that many of the migrants, particularly non-Moroccan 0:08:25.110 --> 0:08:28.110 migrants in Morocco, were waiting to move in the summer 0:08:28.310 --> 0:08:31.290 because that is actually typically when people move. Not at 0:08:31.330 --> 0:08:34.000 the scale of 70,000, but it is not unheard of 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:36.140 for thousands and thousands of people to be on the 0:08:36.179 --> 0:08:38.840 move through the summer trying to get into Europe, particularly 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.100 crossing through the Mediterranean. Yeah. So that is actually just, frankly, 0:08:42.140 --> 0:08:45.000 a baseline when it comes to a lot of migration. 0:08:45.100 --> 0:08:47.460 And then, of course, we did have the element of, 0:08:47.860 --> 0:08:50.200 you know, to what degree did the Moroccan government and 0:08:50.220 --> 0:08:54.640 Moroccan authorities not necessarily, you know, foster this in an 0:08:54.780 --> 0:08:59.439 active way, but definitely suggestions that, you know, Moroccan authorities 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:01.400 were not as heavy handed as they have been in 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:06.160 the past when collaborating on border securitization and perhaps using 0:09:06.179 --> 0:09:10.510 this moment to leverage with Spain with respect to Western Sahara. So, 0:09:10.530 --> 0:09:14.240 you know, multiple factors were at play, but it is 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.040 the main things that stand out, particularly from migrants who 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:21.599 both returned or are still in Soweto, is really the 0:09:21.860 --> 0:09:25.459 Supreme Court decision. And then just this kind of surge 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:27.660 that happened in the moment where more and more people 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.190 felt in the moment that they could make the crossing 0:09:31.370 --> 0:09:35.670 because of the seemingly lax border securitization in that moment. 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.540 I want to get to Morocco and Western Sahara in 0:09:49.580 --> 0:09:52.740 just a moment. Listeners will remember, or hopefully will remember, 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:57.790 an episode I recently did with Western Sahara activist Mohamed Saddam. 0:09:57.830 --> 0:09:59.970 So I'll link that in the show notes. But before 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:01.920 we get to that, just to kind of break down 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:06.410 the aftermath, the kind of immediate aftermath we saw in. Spain, 0:10:06.429 --> 0:10:08.839 and as you said, like, not just Spain, not just Europe, 0:10:08.860 --> 0:10:11.820 but also the United States. But let's maybe start with Spain, like, 0:10:11.860 --> 0:10:15.000 has there been kind of an anti-immigrant backlash as a 0:10:15.020 --> 0:10:17.800 result of this? And what has that looked like? And 0:10:17.820 --> 0:10:20.490 then how has that kind of fed into these narratives, like, 0:10:20.590 --> 0:10:24.069 especially in the United States, like, the great replacement theory, like, 0:10:24.390 --> 0:10:26.550 people really hooked on to these things. So maybe you 0:10:26.570 --> 0:10:27.450 could break that down for us. 0:10:28.140 --> 0:10:30.520 Yeah, you know, the things that have been happening on 0:10:30.570 --> 0:10:33.510 the ground, you know, I'm also obviously not there, but 0:10:33.970 --> 0:10:37.270 being in touch with comrades there and following what's happening 0:10:37.750 --> 0:10:41.589 has been incredibly alarming. You know, so it is undeniable, 0:10:41.630 --> 0:10:44.890 of course, that we are overall in a crisis of 0:10:44.929 --> 0:10:47.670 neoliberalism and austerity. And we know all of the ways 0:10:47.809 --> 0:10:50.910 in which that means people feel intense economic pressures in 0:10:50.950 --> 0:10:55.200 their lives. Ceuta is not a huge place in terms 0:10:55.300 --> 0:10:59.870 of geography and population. And so just the ability for 0:10:59.929 --> 0:11:04.610 the infrastructure, the local infrastructure to actually support people in 0:11:04.630 --> 0:11:09.050 a good way has been significantly strained. However, you know, 0:11:09.070 --> 0:11:11.830 while that is true, that is often layered, as we 0:11:11.890 --> 0:11:15.849 see in many places with anti-migrant xenophobia, right, where migrants 0:11:15.890 --> 0:11:20.880 become the scapegoat for capitalist austerity, become the scapegoat around 0:11:20.940 --> 0:11:25.120 scarce resources. And almost every day in Ceuta, there has 0:11:25.179 --> 0:11:29.960 been anti-migrant protests since. the last 30 days, almost every 0:11:30.100 --> 0:11:36.520 single day. It initially started by far-right forces coming into 0:11:36.580 --> 0:11:41.040 Ceuta from other cities, particularly from Spain and elsewhere, really 0:11:41.100 --> 0:11:45.520 to foster this phenomenon. And unfortunately now it has extended 0:11:45.700 --> 0:11:49.350 into Ceuta locals as well. And so Ceuta has historically 0:11:49.390 --> 0:11:53.260 been known for being a very multicultural space. You know, 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.750 it is a borderland. And so I use multiculturalism, not 0:11:56.770 --> 0:11:59.070 in the liberal way, but in a very sincere way 0:11:59.130 --> 0:12:01.470 of what it means for people to have lived together 0:12:01.510 --> 0:12:03.910 for a very long time. And I don't say that 0:12:03.950 --> 0:12:07.650 to romanticize all the anti-migrant violence that has been ongoing 0:12:08.010 --> 0:12:12.040 in the securitization of the enclaves since the 1990s, but 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:16.830 I mean within the local communities. And that has been fracturing, 0:12:16.850 --> 0:12:19.729 you know, many of the organizations that have been operating 0:12:19.770 --> 0:12:23.340 in Ceuta to support migrants are now facing attacks. You know, 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:26.559 they are being called traitors. They are facing a lot 0:12:26.660 --> 0:12:30.440 of hatred just for supporting migrants, just for doing accompaniment, 0:12:31.020 --> 0:12:33.990 just for doing documentation. And they've been doing incredibly important 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:38.369 documentation work, documenting how migrants have been stranded alone on 0:12:38.410 --> 0:12:41.530 the beach. Many migrants have been corralled and told that 0:12:41.570 --> 0:12:44.730 they cannot leave certain areas because So they are basically 0:12:45.070 --> 0:12:48.740 enclosed into certain areas of Ceuta. Many of them have 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:52.460 been denied registration. So registration is the process through which 0:12:52.500 --> 0:12:55.950 you become registered into the state registry in order to 0:12:56.070 --> 0:12:59.730 access supports. So they have documented that then when they 0:12:59.770 --> 0:13:03.010 accompany people, they are being arbitrarily denied. And when they're denied, 0:13:03.050 --> 0:13:05.730 that means they can't access any of the supports. There 0:13:05.770 --> 0:13:09.190 have been beatings by local police authorities. There have also 0:13:09.230 --> 0:13:12.670 been local attacks on migrants by right forces. So it 0:13:12.710 --> 0:13:17.760 has been incredibly hard and horrific to witness this. And 0:13:18.100 --> 0:13:21.260 what I find particularly hard about this moment, just to 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:26.740 return to this earlier moment, when migrants were first landing 0:13:26.780 --> 0:13:30.510 on Ceuta in July, the way that so many left-wing 0:13:30.550 --> 0:13:34.010 comrades were quick to dismiss it, I'm not saying the 0:13:34.070 --> 0:13:36.590 left is responsible for the violence, but it has meant 0:13:36.770 --> 0:13:40.460 a very quick turn away and abandonment of migrants because 0:13:40.500 --> 0:13:43.020 people were quick to just call it an invasion and say, well, 0:13:43.059 --> 0:13:44.940 so many of the migrants have come back. It was 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.179 not an issue. But that ignores the fact that there are, 0:13:48.220 --> 0:13:51.420 in fact, many migrants who are still there. I mean, again, 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:55.839 particularly migrants from Palestine, from Yemen, from Mali, from Sudan, 0:13:56.179 --> 0:13:58.600 who have been, again, you know, just kind of stranded 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.530 on the beaches. And for organizations in Ceuta who are 0:14:02.550 --> 0:14:06.010 supporting migrants and migrant justice organizations, you know, they've said 0:14:06.050 --> 0:14:08.750 that they haven't seen anything like this in decades in 0:14:08.770 --> 0:14:10.579 terms of the work and the impact on the ground. 0:14:11.100 --> 0:14:14.320 And just desperate conditions for these people that I think, 0:14:14.380 --> 0:14:17.680 like you said, the left likes, not all the left, 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.860 let's just be, you know, everybody get upset with me. 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:25.120 But some large parts of the left in the global 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.090 north that like really loves a neat narrative. 0:14:28.110 --> 0:14:28.650 Mm-hmm. 0:14:29.250 --> 0:14:32.010 Yeah, so let's maybe get into that. Like, why did 0:14:32.050 --> 0:14:37.190 we see, for me, especially English-speaking influencers and pundits who 0:14:37.250 --> 0:14:39.030 speak on the left, like, why did they connect this 0:14:39.050 --> 0:14:39.910 to an Israeli plot? 0:14:40.650 --> 0:14:43.210 Yeah, I mean, I think what we've seen in the 0:14:43.250 --> 0:14:47.910 past few years since the ongoing genocide, various kinds of 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.860 lefts have emerged, you know? One of those lefts has 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:55.510 been very quick on the takes, on the upticks. You know, 0:14:55.670 --> 0:14:58.750 we see content farming. And in particular, we see very 0:14:58.810 --> 0:15:02.360 simplistic narratives where people may not actually know the extent 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:07.260 of place-based geographies and movements and have only seen clickbait 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.860 about what countries have done to stand up to the 0:15:09.900 --> 0:15:13.200 Zionist enemy, right? And that is important. Spain, for example, 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:15.540 is one of those countries that has stood up to 0:15:15.580 --> 0:15:19.420 the Zionist entity. We saw this with, you know, tremendous support, 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.890 for example, for South Africa during the ICJ hearing. And 0:15:22.930 --> 0:15:26.360 at the same time, we had organizers from Sudan saying, hey, 0:15:26.420 --> 0:15:29.680 can we talk about what's happening between the South African 0:15:29.740 --> 0:15:33.020 state and the UAE and the closer relationships? You know, 0:15:33.060 --> 0:15:35.960 none of which is to simplify in the opposite direction, 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:38.480 but it is to actually sit with internationalism in a 0:15:38.500 --> 0:15:40.990 meaningful way and to look at all the contours of 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.350 what is happening. And so what we saw in the 0:15:43.470 --> 0:15:47.450 aftermath of July, and really from commentators who, frankly, in 0:15:47.490 --> 0:15:51.310 my humble opinion, have any connection to Right. So did 0:15:51.350 --> 0:15:55.030 not know the history of Ceuta, do not understand Ceuta 0:15:55.100 --> 0:16:00.080 as a transit point for many decades, really harping on 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:05.380 this idea that because it was migrants entering into Ceuta, 0:16:05.540 --> 0:16:08.600 it was an attack on Spanish sovereignty. you know, there 0:16:08.620 --> 0:16:11.760 was all these clips of these migrants are military aged men. 0:16:11.820 --> 0:16:13.880 Just look at them. They're like 18 to 45. And 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.440 it's like, who do you think most migrants are in general? 0:16:17.460 --> 0:16:21.560 Like that is actually the demographic of many migrants, not exclusively, 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.820 of course, but that is the reality of migration, particularly 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:26.850 on dangerous routes, right? That has been one of the 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.270 impacts of securitizing the borders is that it does make 0:16:30.330 --> 0:16:34.330 it harder for elderly or kids to migrate because those 0:16:34.390 --> 0:16:38.530 routes are becoming more dangerous. So, you know, the narrative became, look, 0:16:38.630 --> 0:16:44.960 this is a U.S.-Israeli, Moroccan-backed plot. to destabilize Spain and 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.200 Spanish sovereignty at a time when Spain is standing up 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:51.700 to Palestine. Like that was the through line and all 0:16:51.740 --> 0:16:55.360 of the evidence was clipped and farmed to justify that. 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.280 And so, you know, that was why we saw what 0:16:58.330 --> 0:17:01.310 we did. I think in this moment, we're seeing many 0:17:01.450 --> 0:17:06.030 other similar narratives in that trajectory that are not about Ceuta, 0:17:06.130 --> 0:17:10.080 but that are in that same vein. Hmm. where people 0:17:10.140 --> 0:17:15.119 want to suggest that everything is a U.S.-Israeli-backed conspiracy. Frankly, 0:17:15.180 --> 0:17:18.000 you know, people straight up saying, like, you know, if 0:17:18.140 --> 0:17:22.790 anyone is against Spain, they must be backed by Zionists. Like, 0:17:22.970 --> 0:17:26.470 you know, and it is clear-cut and nuance is terrible 0:17:26.590 --> 0:17:30.669 and nuancing is two-sidism, you know? And so I think 0:17:30.690 --> 0:17:34.770 there was an uptick because that has become part of 0:17:34.850 --> 0:17:36.560 some segments of leftist discourse. 0:17:37.109 --> 0:17:40.369 Yeah. People in the Palestine space, I'll speak for myself 0:17:40.430 --> 0:17:45.270 in particular, like this struggle to have a truly internationalist 0:17:45.310 --> 0:17:50.660 perspective has been, yeah, a growing struggle in the movement, 0:17:50.780 --> 0:17:56.479 like to kind of push against the easy narratives that 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:58.480 people want to latch on to. And your argument is 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.740 that like treating it as a foreign military like maneuver, 0:18:02.260 --> 0:18:04.850 like you're just conceding the far right's premise entirely. 0:18:04.869 --> 0:18:04.949 Yeah. 0:18:16.050 --> 0:18:20.670 So let's maybe also talk about the Moroccan role here. 0:18:21.109 --> 0:18:25.010 You mentioned already that there is an interest of the 0:18:25.030 --> 0:18:28.030 Moroccan state to use migration as a leverage, and Western 0:18:28.050 --> 0:18:31.230 Sahara plays a role in this. So could you maybe 0:18:31.690 --> 0:18:32.540 break that down for us? 0:18:33.180 --> 0:18:35.350 Yeah, I think... As I mentioned, you know, some of 0:18:35.390 --> 0:18:38.800 this is still being parsed out. And so, you know, 0:18:38.820 --> 0:18:40.480 we don't know for sure. But what we do know 0:18:40.540 --> 0:18:44.359 is that Moroccan state authorities likely relaxed their kind of 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.540 border controls in that moment. And I think it is 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.310 important here again to emphasize that, you know, both Morocco 0:18:50.510 --> 0:18:54.190 and Spain have for a long time collaborated on border controls. 0:18:54.270 --> 0:18:54.470 Right. 0:18:54.530 --> 0:18:54.810 And so. 0:18:55.420 --> 0:18:57.360 You know, one of the arguments that I generally make 0:18:57.420 --> 0:19:00.360 is that we have to understand borders as a linchpin 0:19:00.420 --> 0:19:03.380 in state violence. That, you know, while there are many 0:19:03.460 --> 0:19:06.859 things often at play in terms of global geopolitics, whether 0:19:06.900 --> 0:19:11.790 it's imperialism, of course, or bilateral kind of relationships between 0:19:11.850 --> 0:19:15.430 various states, one of the things they have always collaborated 0:19:15.590 --> 0:19:20.250 on and continue to collaborate on is borders. It's completely global. 0:19:20.630 --> 0:19:24.550 And Spain and Morocco have long collaborated. Spain has often 0:19:24.630 --> 0:19:29.520 funded Moroccan border securitization. And so while there are many 0:19:29.859 --> 0:19:33.060 significant differences between Spain and Morocco, for example, on their 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:38.100 positions and alignments on Palestine and You know, Morocco's normalization, 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:44.010 Spain's significant stance against Zionism and Israel, although imperfect, is 0:19:44.220 --> 0:19:48.550 significantly more than Morocco. That is undeniable, despite Spain and 0:19:48.590 --> 0:19:52.220 Morocco's significant differences online. on Western Sahara, they have collaborated 0:19:52.420 --> 0:19:55.609 on border securitization. So that is important to hold as 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:59.270 the overall context. And then in this moment, you know, 0:19:59.310 --> 0:20:02.229 it's hard to say precisely because, again, we don't have 0:20:02.470 --> 0:20:04.990 all of that kind of information. But what we do 0:20:05.030 --> 0:20:08.650 know is that at different times, Spain has leveraged the 0:20:08.690 --> 0:20:11.530 border and Morocco has leveraged the border for their own 0:20:11.590 --> 0:20:15.490 personal interests, particularly around Western Sahara. And with respect to Spain, 0:20:15.530 --> 0:20:20.030 Spain has actually fluctuated on its position on Western Sahara 0:20:20.450 --> 0:20:24.129 over the past several years. In 2021, as we know, 0:20:24.310 --> 0:20:28.310 Spain reversed its position on supporting an independent referendum on 0:20:28.350 --> 0:20:33.190 Western Sahara. This moment in 2026 has been really important 0:20:33.290 --> 0:20:38.390 because Algeria and Spain have reestablished relationships. While we don't 0:20:38.530 --> 0:20:41.689 know the extent of that relationship, we know that those 0:20:42.290 --> 0:20:48.500 relationships being reestablished did cause some discontent for the Moroccan state. 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.720 And so, you know, we can speculate that that that 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.520 is one of the reasons, particularly in this moment, that 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:59.290 Morocco may have decided to really leverage the border in 0:20:59.310 --> 0:21:03.250 a particular way to have Spain rethink any possibility of 0:21:03.310 --> 0:21:06.930 rethinking its position on Western Sahara. And to emphasize, Spain 0:21:06.970 --> 0:21:10.790 has not yet reversed its decision from 2021, but people 0:21:10.830 --> 0:21:15.580 understood that maybe this gesture towards Algeria might suggest that 0:21:15.660 --> 0:21:18.139 Spain was going to change its position on Western Sahara. 0:21:18.430 --> 0:21:18.840 Interesting. 0:21:19.020 --> 0:21:19.180 Yeah. 0:21:19.540 --> 0:21:22.500 No, I think it's a very important point to underscore 0:21:22.540 --> 0:21:24.890 that there is, as you've mentioned in your previous work, 0:21:24.910 --> 0:21:28.720 this kind of externalization of of enforcement, and that there 0:21:28.820 --> 0:21:31.600 are all these states around the world that play that role. 0:21:32.100 --> 0:21:34.830 You know, Fortress Europe, I don't know, catchphrase is the 0:21:34.850 --> 0:21:36.930 right term here. But like, we talked a lot about 0:21:36.970 --> 0:21:39.870 Fortress Europe, like, I don't know, 10 years ago, and 0:21:39.910 --> 0:21:42.310 the role that a lot of these Middle Eastern states, 0:21:42.790 --> 0:21:45.510 despite a lot of differences, like you said, like play 0:21:45.790 --> 0:21:49.770 in the maintenance of border imperialism. I kind of want 0:21:49.790 --> 0:21:52.709 to maybe end on this idea from some of your 0:21:52.730 --> 0:21:56.310 commentary on this particular incident a month ago about how, 0:21:56.390 --> 0:21:58.860 you know, we need to understand like people will keep crossing. 0:21:59.630 --> 0:22:02.680 That's going to be the significance. So for those of 0:22:02.740 --> 0:22:07.080 us who aren't taking an anti-immigrant position, either from the 0:22:07.100 --> 0:22:09.700 left or the right, like what should someone who takes 0:22:09.740 --> 0:22:12.310 that seriously actually be organizing towards right now? 0:22:12.869 --> 0:22:15.810 Yeah, I love that question. Because for me, when I 0:22:15.850 --> 0:22:19.060 think about the externalization of borders, as you just were 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.980 talking about, to me, it means that if we see 0:22:22.060 --> 0:22:25.220 bordering as happening, not just as, you know, a line 0:22:25.260 --> 0:22:27.699 on a map that's, you know, about people crossing in 0:22:27.740 --> 0:22:31.080 particular moments, or, you know, especially right now, what's happening, 0:22:31.100 --> 0:22:33.530 for example, in the US, or what we see with 0:22:33.609 --> 0:22:37.670 AFD's victory in a region of Germany, all of this 0:22:37.730 --> 0:22:40.330 to me really points to like, it is impossible to 0:22:40.430 --> 0:22:45.409 separate out the rise of fascism from anti-migrant racism. And 0:22:45.490 --> 0:22:47.760 so when I think about, you know, what can we 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:52.860 do to support migrants, it really is a much broader 0:22:52.900 --> 0:22:57.500 struggle to dismantle fascism because despite all their differences and 0:22:57.700 --> 0:23:00.940 all polls for the past decade have shown this, that 0:23:00.980 --> 0:23:04.310 in different parts of the world, people vote for fascist 0:23:04.350 --> 0:23:08.109 parties for different reasons, right? Because obviously not every geography 0:23:08.150 --> 0:23:12.699 is the same. But the two most significant similarities is 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:17.240 anti-Muslim racism and anti-migrant racism. That is the most consistent 0:23:17.300 --> 0:23:21.260 similarity in very disparate parts of the world. Because, you know, 0:23:21.300 --> 0:23:26.360 for example, white supremacy is not necessarily at play in India, right? 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:29.520 Like that is not the governing framework for fascism, but 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:35.100 it is Hindutva, which is motivated by anti-Muslim racism, caste supremacy, 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:38.119 and also anti-migrant racism, right? All of the changes that 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:42.350