1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you from how stupp 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: Christen and I'm Caroline. And this is part two of 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: our two parter on advice columns. In case you missed 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: the last episode, stop what you're doing and go listen 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,159 Speaker 1: to it right now. No, you can keep listening to 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: this one in case you missed the last episode for 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: a quick recap, we talked about the history of the 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: advice column, which goes all the way back to I 10 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: can hear your brains exploding right now. It is incredible, 11 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: I know, um. And we talked about how the content 12 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: of advice columns changed over time to be more less 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: about propriety and more about personal issues. And by personal 14 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: I do means six Yeah. Well no, just as we 15 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: mentioned we talked a little bit about this in our 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: last episode. As time went on, the attitudes towards sex, 17 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: both in society and within the safe realm of the 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: advice column did change, and Adrian Bingham writes about this 19 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: in newspaper Problem Pages and British Sexual Culture since nineteen eighteen, 20 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: in which he talks about how in the interwar period 21 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: and into the forties, these problem pages, these advice columns 22 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: almost invariably provided staunch defenses of conventional morality and portrayed 23 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: sexuality as a dangerous instinct. You have to protect yourself 24 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: from these dangerous instincts. But moving on into the fifties 25 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: and sixties and even the seventies, sexuality was increasingly depicted 26 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: as positive, and moving even forward in time, these problem 27 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: pages and advice columns have even developed a more hedonistic approach. 28 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: He says, yeah, which is why the title of this 29 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: episode is from Dear Abbey two Dan Savage, who would 30 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: take I'm sure pleasure being described as hedonistic um. And 31 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: he also talks about how they've been presented more overtly 32 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: as entertainment. So two women who really get things going 33 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 1: at that started that shift toward more open sexuality, more 34 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: sex positivity in advice columns. Who also rescue the advice 35 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: column from its death in the newspapers as it was 36 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: starting to trickle off were a pair of sisters, twin 37 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: sisters who were born July four, nine eighteen in Sioux City, Iowa. 38 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: And that is don't get these mixed up folks. Pauline 39 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,839 Speaker 1: Esther Freedman and Esther Pauline Friedman, better known as Dear 40 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: Abbey and in Landers. Yeah, these were they were identical twins. 41 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: They studied journalism at the same college. They were even 42 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: married on the same day. So you think, like, oh, 43 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: that's adorable. They must be so close, they must love 44 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: each other so much. They were feuding advice column nous. Yeah. 45 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: So the first one to jump into this business is 46 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: Esther Pauline Freedman Letterer. That's that's her married last name, 47 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: otherwise known as Eppie. She she took over the and 48 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: Lander's column, which started at the Chicago Suntimes under Ruth Crowley, 49 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 1: and she entered a contest right to get that column. Yeah, 50 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen five, the Chicago Suntimes had a contest for 51 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: the and Lander's column because I believe Ruth Crowley had 52 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: passed away. And the thing about and Landers was it 53 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: was one of the remaining big names in the business. 54 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: By the nineties, some newspapers had stopped syndicating advice columns altogether. 55 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: And so Eppie enters this contest, lo and behold she wins. 56 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: And apparently Eppie had a knack for writing advice columns 57 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: because within the first eighteen months she took the an 58 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: Lander's column from twenty six to a hundred and ten papers, 59 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: and she was known for a homie, more detailed style. Yeah. 60 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: So about a year later, you know you're thinking, okay, 61 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: that's great. One sister went off and you know she 62 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: she won this contest. Now she's a really successful columnist. 63 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: I bet you're happy for her sister, sister, twin sister, 64 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: twin sister. But no, Pauline Esther goes out and uh 65 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: pitches Dear Abbey under under the pen name Abigail van Buren. Yeah, 66 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: the feud between Dear Abbey and a Landers starts because 67 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: Pauline claims, in those early days of Eppie taking over 68 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: as Ann Landers that she would call up all Pauline 69 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: and say what do you think about this? And Pauline 70 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,239 Speaker 1: would help her write the columns Now, of course, and Landers, 71 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: now becoming a household name, was not pleased that her 72 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: sister was spilling these secrets. So it starts this feud 73 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: and Pauline's like, well, I'll just start my own thing. 74 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: And it was funny because her motivation for starting it, Yeah, 75 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: it was she seemed to be pretty good at it, 76 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: and perhaps it was some kind of competition with her sister, 77 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: but she publicly said that she really just wanted to 78 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 1: be more than a housewife because her husband was very wealthy, 79 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: and she at one point said, quote, there has to 80 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: be something more to life than ma young. My mother 81 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: would disagree, um, And that was her motivation for taking 82 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: Abigail van Buren a k a. Dear Abbey to the 83 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: San Francisco Chronicle, and it kicks off in nineteen fifty six, 84 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: and her style was far more quippy, and we have 85 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: we have some some examples of a dear be responses 86 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: because one of the reasons why we did want to 87 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: do this two part on advice columnists was because of 88 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: the recent passing of Dear Abbey and Lander's her sister, 89 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: Esther Friedman Letterer had died in two thousand two, but 90 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: Dear Abbey died in early two thirteen. Right, Yes, you 91 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 1: mentioned her quippy style. She she did have some great zingers, 92 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: some one liners. One person wrote in to say, you know, 93 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: my son married this woman and in February, and the 94 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: baby was born in August at eight and a half pounds. 95 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: How is it possible for such a premature baby to 96 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: be so big? And Dear Abbey's response was the baby 97 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: was on time, the wedding was late. Forget it, you know, 98 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: and like, I mean, that's that's pretty not racy, but 99 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: I mean that's pretty advanced for the time that this 100 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: person was writing in well, talking about advanced. Dan Savage, 101 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: who we brought up a lot in the podcast before. 102 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: He is the host of the podcast Savage Love, better 103 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: known for his sex advice column in Seattle's The Stranger 104 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: All Weekly. Um, and he was talking in a in 105 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: a fairly recent episode of Savage Love about Dear Abbey's 106 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: legacy and this was his favorite letter and her very 107 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: quippy response. So the letter goes about four months ago, 108 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: the house across the street was sold to a quote 109 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: unquote father and son, or so we thought. We later 110 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: learned it was an older man about fifty and a 111 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: young fellow about twenty four. This was a respectable neighborhood 112 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: before this odd couple moved in. They have all sorts 113 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: of strange looking company. Men who look like women, women 114 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: who look like men, Blacks, whites, Indians. Yesterday I even 115 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: saw two nuns going there. Abby. These weirdos are wrecking 116 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: our property values. How can we improve the quality of 117 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: this once respectable neighborhood signed up in arms. Dear Abbey 118 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: rights deer up, you could move. That's great. Just killing 119 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: that biggest tree with with three words, that's all she needs. 120 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: And dance Bag goes on to talk about how with 121 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: the whole father's son thing. At the time in California, 122 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't uncommon for one partner in a gay couple 123 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: to adopt the other so that they could live together 124 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: and share legal rights, you know, those those civil rights 125 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: that they are still fighting for. But um, in that way, 126 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: Abby was uh, pretty pretty liberal voice at the time. Yeah. 127 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: The New York Times characterizes her thus lee, they say, 128 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 1: with her comic and flinty, yet fundamentally sympathetic voice. And 129 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: Mrs Phillips helped wrestle the advice column from its weepy 130 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: Victorian past into a hard nosed twentieth century present. There 131 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 1: for you know, saving it and getting more and more 132 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: people to write in, because she's writing about modern problems 133 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: and she's answering in such a way that it just 134 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: kind of cuts through the bs. Yeah, and her daughter 135 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: Jean has since taken over the Dear Abbey column, And 136 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: I was surprised to learn that it's still receives over 137 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: ten thousand letters per week. And I was mentioned in 138 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: the New York Times obituary for Pauline Esther Friedman Um 139 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: And it's funny that the feud between Dear Abby and 140 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: and Landers has continued since now both of the women 141 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: have died. Um and Lander's daughter, Margot Howard, initially took 142 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: over Slate's Dear Prudence column, but she later started up 143 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: a feud with Amy Dickinson, who took over the and 144 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: Lander's column after Eppie stepped down. So this is a 145 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: strange back and forth. Yeah, and there were a lot 146 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: of ugly words. Uh, this is coming from Slate. In 147 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: February two thousand nine, Margot accused Amy Dickinson of claiming 148 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: to be the quote next and Landers, you know you're 149 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: you're not. You can't replace an original. Of course, you 150 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: know Eppie wasn't the original either. But anyway, Dickinson said, 151 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: you know that's not the case. I never build myself 152 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: that way. And she says that she in fact distanced 153 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: herself from Landers when she entered the Advice realm, and 154 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: then she kind of maybe sticks sticks at to her. 155 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: She says, my column is a whole new venture. It's 156 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: funnier and snappier and more entertaining. Yeah, and now she 157 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: writes ask Amy. So she spun off into her own thing. 158 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: But even though Eppie and Pauline are gone, advice columns 159 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: are still thriving, both in print and online. And the 160 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: interesting thing is the queries have not changed all that much. 161 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: We talked about in the first Advice Column episode. How 162 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: in the very first publication of Advice Columns and the 163 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: Athenian Mercury, someone asked whether or not it was okay 164 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: for a couple to shack up before they got married. Um. 165 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: And there's something so abiding about the advice column format 166 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: in terms of having those anonymous personas UM, and the 167 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: common questions that come up, and just the comfort that 168 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: we take in them simply existing, be able, being able 169 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: to read and possibly relate and maybe just be voyors 170 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: into other people's lives and their problems. Um, and dear 171 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: Abbey once said quote, most people just want someone to 172 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: listen to them without moralizing or sermonizing or sitting in judgment. 173 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: That's good therapy, just to get it out of your 174 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: system and tell somebody. Yeah and sing, I mean things 175 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: are changing obviously with with technology, but our problems do 176 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: remain the same. Emily Yaffi, who writes Slate's Dear Prudence column, 177 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 1: now says that yeah, there they are a very old form, 178 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: and they are a reflection of the times and of 179 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: the of the fact that basically human beings continue to 180 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: grapple with the same issues that they always have despite 181 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: these advances in technology. And she says, when I started 182 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: the column seven years ago, I got no letters about 183 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: social media. But now Facebook is a frequent topic. People 184 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: write about it all the time, the jealousy, boasting, cheating, manipulation. 185 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: But these are still the same tradition sational issues that 186 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: deer Abbey and landers and people way back in the seventeenth, 187 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: eighteenth and nineteenth century dealt with. Yeah, And one thing 188 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: that Yaffie and Amy Dickinson told The Atlantic was that 189 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: the number one topic that comes up so much that 190 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: kind of makes both of them sick, how much we 191 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: freak out over at weddings. Advice columns will exist as 192 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: long as weddings exists, because there there are so many 193 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: etiquette questions tied up in a people's emotions flying off 194 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 1: of the handle. Uh was was it? Amy? Dickinson, who 195 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: was like, I don't care about your bridesmaid problem. Yes, um, 196 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: But one thing too that hasn't changed is how few 197 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: male advice columnists there are. I mean, Dan Savage is 198 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 1: such an exception to the rule. He is America's foremost 199 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: sex columnists. But in terms of the day to day 200 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: advice columnists agony ants over in the UK, we don't 201 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,719 Speaker 1: hear much about agony uncles. Um, we don't see a 202 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: lot of male advice calumnists. And when I was looking 203 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: into research on maybe why that is, maybe gendered patterns 204 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: of advice or gender and advice columns, all I got 205 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: were these silly internet comics about how if men were 206 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: to write advice columns they would just be mean and 207 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: straightforward and and essentially just say I don't care about 208 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: your bridesmaids. Yeah. I mean, there's what there's ask a 209 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 1: Guy or ask a dude. There there's asked men dot Com, 210 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: which you could say is one massive advice column. But 211 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: this is pretty timely because speaking of Slate, it just 212 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: launched in February Gentleman Scholar, which is a male advice 213 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: column written by Troy Patterson. But even still looking at 214 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: gentleman scholar. It's not so much of the personal queries 215 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: of I have this personal problem and how do I 216 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: deal with it? It's still obviously like geared toward men 217 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: of like we'll be talking about how to pour a 218 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: proper scotch something like that. Yeah, is it? Is it 219 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: bad for me to admit that when I started reading 220 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: his stuff that I just kind of got lost in 221 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: his language. I'm like, why are you writing like you're 222 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: so opaque? I just want to read some information and 223 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: you're just like, basically if if some people write in 224 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: straight lines, he writes in curly cues, and it just 225 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: drives me crazy. Troy Patterson, Yeah, maybe you should write 226 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: an advice column to the Gentleman's Skull. Yeah, hey, listen, No, 227 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: that's all right. There there are other people out there 228 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: to read who are more interesting, like Dan Savage. Like 229 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: Dan Savage. Now I realized that Dan Savage is podcast. 230 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: Let's say it's very in SFW. It is very it's 231 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily uh family friendly, but but it's still 232 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: providing that community. Yes, it's still letting you know you're 233 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: not alone out there. It's still an informative and educational 234 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: tool and it's just very interesting, entertaining, sympathetic and kind 235 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: all at the same time. Yes, and and so so straightforward. 236 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: I'm a huge Dan Savage fan. And I love the 237 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: fact that when Anne Landers's personal effects were auctioned off 238 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: years ago, he bought her desk, and that is the 239 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: desk at which he writes his Stranger column. And a 240 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: couple of years ago there was a cover story on 241 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: Savage for the Washington Monthly magazine because obviously The Stranger 242 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: is published in Seattle, and the profiler talks about how 243 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: Savage attributes his advice giving empire to the combined influence 244 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: of Anne Lander's an Xavier Hollander, who wrote the Call 245 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: Me Madam advice column for Penthouse, which seems like it 246 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: makes so much sense when you think about Dan Savage's 247 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: style with the topics that he covers, which is not 248 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: always so lovey dovey. No it's not, but I think 249 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: know talking about and Landers like cutting, cutting straight to 250 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: the point. You know, somebody might write a long letter 251 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: about something that's obviously off the beaten path, not mainstream, 252 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: but he cuts through all of like the crazy details 253 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: and just says, you know, don't be a mean person. 254 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: Be upfront with your partner, etcetera, or dump. I can't 255 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: say that word him or her him. Yeah, there are 256 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: even some calls on the podcast. It's always give me 257 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: a bit of a chuckle when the caller is going 258 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: on and on and on about their problem, to the 259 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: point that Dan will just stop the call and just say, 260 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: you just cut through all of the noise and give 261 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: them some straightforwar advice because a lot of times when 262 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: people have to spend so long describing their problem, the 263 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: solution is much simpler, which is often you need to 264 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: check yourself, or you need to walk away or things 265 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: like that. But speaking of sex columnists, this is a 266 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: little bit tangential, but I feel like it still ties 267 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: in a lot to things we talked about on the podcast, 268 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: and it is something that we might not initially think 269 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: of in terms of advice columns. Uh that might be 270 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: more mainstream. But thanks to possibly Dance Savage and more 271 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: specifically to Sex in the City, there has been a 272 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: sex column revolution on college campuses. You're shaking your head, Caroline. 273 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: I'm shaking my head because Kristen Congre and I worked 274 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: at the same college newspaper, and I swear I mean 275 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: like steam is coming out of my ears, like why 276 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: it makes me wish the college newspapers had a longer 277 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: institutional memory slash editorial advisors who would shake these young 278 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: people who feel the need to write these ill informed, 279 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: ignorant sex columns. You said it. I've been meaning to 280 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,719 Speaker 1: get that out for a long time. But they're they are, 281 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: They're very popular, And yeah, I don't it's great get 282 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: sex advice from a nineteen year old. That's fine. Well, 283 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,719 Speaker 1: it's a relatively new thing. And I would argue that 284 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: it's another chapter in this timeline of advice columns, because 285 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: it's just another signal of us opening up in terms 286 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: of our acceptance of sexuality and how we approached that. 287 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: Because we have younger people. It's not agony and who 288 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about it. It's agony sorority sisters who are 289 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: talking about it. And Daniel Reimold wrote the book Sex 290 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: and the University, Celebrity, Controversy and a Student Journalism Revolution, 291 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: charting this proliferation of campus sex columns starting with the 292 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: launch of Sex on Tuesday at University of California at Berkeley, 293 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: and he says that during any given semester, more than 294 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: two hundred sex and dating columns are being published in 295 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: student newspapers, magazines, online outlets. But in the mid nineties, 296 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: before that Sex on Tuesday column at Berkeley, the number 297 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: of sex student columns was zero, and a lot of 298 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: the people who write them, mostly women, say that you 299 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: cannot overestimate the Carrie Bradshaw effect. Carrie Bradshaw for those unfamiliar, 300 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: being the protagonist sex columnists in Sex in the City. Yeah, 301 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: now that was That's a complaint. I might have voiced 302 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: a time or tier in college, like why do all 303 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: these people think they are Carrie Bradshaw Because it was 304 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: very glamorous. I was in journalism school at the time 305 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: when Sex in the City was still on HBO, And 306 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: I am not gonna lie that it painted a very 307 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: romantic portrait in my head of the combination of writing 308 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: and dating and and being open with your sexuality and 309 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 1: sharing all of these things. Because there's a point where 310 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: these sex columns are not so much advice giving but 311 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: just over sharing, yes, and so it is another outlet 312 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: to let people know that you might be going through 313 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: the same thing that they are. However, I just I 314 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: just don't like it. I don't like that No, I 315 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: don't like it. And it's not because I don't like 316 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: sex columns or don't like reading about dating issues and 317 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. I just you're just saying it's 318 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: more of like blind leading the blind. I think it's 319 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: just I think it tends to be ridiculous. Yeah, well 320 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: how about this soap Caroline. There is an argument that 321 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: just as relationship advice columns have been stand ins for 322 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: direct communication, like how with the Victorian problem pages, it 323 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: was often women writing in asking how to decode male 324 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 1: signals because she couldn't, you know, they couldn't sit down 325 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: and have face to face dates. They couldn't go to dinner, 326 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: she couldn't say do you want to date me? Or what? Dude? Um? 327 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: You could argue that perhaps sex columns on campuses are 328 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: stand ins for proper sex said, so maybe that help us. 329 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: Well that's the thing. Maybe that it's a it's a 330 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: signal of a greater need to, you know, be informed 331 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: about what's what. Sure. You could also argue that some 332 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: of these people are writing columns just so they can 333 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: talk about like the fancy place they went to dinner, 334 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: and then sexual positions after dinner, and two and in 335 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: the cachet, perhaps of calling oneself a sex columnist. Yes, yeah, 336 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: there's a lot. I thought we could do it. We 337 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: could even do like a spin off episode just on 338 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: sex columns, because they are they are so common, and 339 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: I have known sex columnists and it is it is 340 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: interesting to to talk to them about I don't know, 341 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 1: I guess to see what what spends their motors about 342 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 1: wanting to be so personal in public. Um. But another 343 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: thing that has, you know, come alongside this. Yeah, you 344 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: have the more traditional like campus sex columns, but it's 345 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: also a sign of this, perhaps the oversharing as an 346 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: extension of us being so online and sharing everything and 347 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: putting everything out there. And you would think in a 348 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: way that living in the Internet age as we do, 349 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: that it would have signaled the death of advice columns, 350 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: because why would you need advice if there's Google Now. 351 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: I would just think that you would go out and 352 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: search for your little niche advice column Exactly. There are 353 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: more than ever before. Yeah, yeah, we mentioned Dear Prudence 354 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: over at Slate. Salon has since you asked the New 355 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: York Times, the ethicist Jezebel pot psychology, although that's been retired. 356 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: Correct every now and then but there's a there's a 357 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: book coming out. Okay, so the Hairpin has asked a 358 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: still in the blank resident expert person that they're bringing in. 359 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: And then there's Columbia Universities Go ask Alice, which we've 360 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,719 Speaker 1: actually referenced a lot on the podcast because it's not 361 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: only very informative, but it's very detailed and not it 362 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: doesn't shy away from honestly answering sex questions and body questions. Yeah, 363 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: it's a it's a great resource. I mean it's more 364 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: cut and dried sex education, but still a really good resource. 365 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: And it goes on and on and on from there 366 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: on the internet. And one columnist who has emerged thanks 367 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: to the Internet who would be remiss to not mentioned 368 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: is Deer Sugar over at the Rumpus, and a couple 369 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: of years ago she came out from behind her anonymous 370 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: Deer Sugar chitle because she was publishing a book. It's 371 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: Cheryl Strait, who's two thousand twelve memoir Wild is still, 372 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: I believe, a New York Times bestseller and it has 373 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: become one of the most beloved online advice columns. And 374 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever read Deer sugar Caroline. 375 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: But I got sucked into it last year, and I 376 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: remember the first time I read one of her responses 377 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,479 Speaker 1: and I couldn't stop, just kept clicking through more and 378 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: more and more, because she not only is a wonderful writer, 379 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: but in she she writes with a style that she 380 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: refers to as radical empathy, where she ties in a 381 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: lot of her own personal experiences. And also you can 382 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: tell that she really thinks about and cares about the 383 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 1: person who is writing to her. And maybe we love 384 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: it so much because that's something that's often missing from 385 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: the Internet because it's so fast and the attention span 386 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: is so brief. And finally, here's a space where someone 387 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: clearly sat down and took time and is not only 388 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: giving them an answer, but also giving them part of herself. 389 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: You can tell it. I really love it. Yeah, you do. Um. Well, 390 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: you know, before before she revealed her true identity, uh 391 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 1: Ruth Franklin at The New Republic was talking about just 392 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: the whole the internet phenomenon that got But it's an 393 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: Internet phenomenon, but it goes way back to the origins 394 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: of advice columns as far as anonymity, And it doesn't 395 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: really matter what about her is real and what about 396 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: her is fake because the advice she gives is so 397 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: thorough but so touching. And so you know those people 398 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: who created quote unquote societies to answer questions in the 399 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: seventeenth century, that was their version. And now we have 400 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: people like Sugar Slash Cheryl Straad, who you know, she 401 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: existed behind this sort of curtain hiding her true identity. 402 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: But it just let people feel more comfortable coming to 403 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: her with very private things. Yeah, and um, it was 404 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: something else that might resonate with some of our stuff. 405 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: Mo'm never told you listeners. Um. In an interview with 406 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: Straad uh to Bitch Magazine, she talks about how feminism 407 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: informs the column she She says, feminism is who I am. 408 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: It's the lens from which I view the world. Everything 409 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: in Sugar is feminists. It should be stamped this is 410 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: written by a feminist and uh, if you haven't checked 411 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 1: out Dear Sugar over at the Rumpus, I highly recommended. 412 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,959 Speaker 1: There's now a collection of some of her advice columns 413 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: in the book Tiny Beautiful Things that you can also 414 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: look at as well. Tiny Beautiful Things is one of 415 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: the most popular. One of those clicked on columns from there, um, 416 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: but I feel like she's really she. She hasn't reinvented 417 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: advice columns, but I think she represents the best of 418 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: what it can be in terms of like the personal stuff. 419 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: Dan Savage has a sex stuff covered, shery austra it, 420 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: She's got your personal stuff covered, and in between, who 421 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: knows what it in between? You have nineteen year olds 422 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: on college campus. Is driving Caroline insane? I know, Well, 423 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: they don't drive me insane anymore because I don't read 424 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: college newspapers. One I did have a favorite in middle school. 425 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: I had a favorite online advice columnist, breakup Girl. Do 426 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: you remember her at all? She ended up transitioning to 427 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: I want to say MSN and I want to say 428 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: her column was just like schlenn someone out there needs 429 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: to correct me if I'm wrong. But she was so great, 430 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: and her column it was that anonymity. It was just 431 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: break up girls. And her picture was a cartoon of 432 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: a blonde woman with a cape and a little outfit 433 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: in some boots. And she answered so sensitively and with 434 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: humor and kindness, and you know, she just cut through 435 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: the through the bs. Also, all of these relationship questions 436 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: from young people. She took young people seriously, and so 437 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: as a middle schooler, it was so even though I 438 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily having these problems, I wasn't dating yet or 439 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: any of that stuff, it was so nice to read that, 440 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: like somebody taking young people seriously. Yeah, that reminds me 441 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: of Rookie Meg's feature Ask a Grown Man, which is 442 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: a video advice column and they've they've talked to John 443 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: Hamm and other people. Really John Hamd, I need to 444 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: say more John Hamd, but where they take younger people's questions, 445 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: younger girls questions and these grown men answer them. And 446 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: it's very endearing because it's the same thing. It's taking 447 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: these problems seriously. Because I mean, when we're still if 448 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: you look at the advice columns you and I were 449 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 1: probably reading when we were fourteen fifteen and the ones 450 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: we might be reading today, it's it's all different versions 451 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: of the same stuff that goes over and over and 452 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: over again. And Uh. One thing though, that we weren't 453 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: able to find in our research on advice columns was 454 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: any kind of analysis on the quality of the the 455 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: advice that's given, because I feel like a lot of 456 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: it's more like a psychological thing that we gleaned from it. 457 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: This is like comfort of knowing that other people have problems, 458 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: maybe their problems aren't as bad as ours, seeing that 459 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: there's a solution, so maybe the maybe it doesn't matter 460 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: all that much. I mean, there there were a couple 461 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: of papers looking at sex health questions and health specific 462 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: like medical advice, and usually the prognosis was it's not 463 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: so great talk to your doctor, but in terms of 464 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 1: the personal quandaries, it's a little more vague. Yeah. As 465 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: far as the effect that it has on people, yeah, well, 466 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean maybe a lot of that has to do 467 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: with the fact that we've been asking the same questions 468 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: for four hundred years. And why Yeah, I guess because 469 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: we just I don't know. It sounds like I need 470 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: to write to an advice column Well do your Athenian Mercury. 471 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: Why must we keep asking the same questions? And then 472 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: at Michael Jackson's song human Nature queues up, I wish 473 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: that song could cue up right now to take us, 474 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: to take us out, because I think that's all we 475 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: got on advice columnists. I had a lot of fun 476 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: researching it, and I have obviously it's soft, soft spot 477 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: for advice columns, and I appreciate when listeners trust us 478 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: enough to to ask our advice on things as well 479 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: because had experiences. We've had experiences, and we try to 480 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: practice radical empathy as much as we can as well, 481 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: because I think that is an excellent guiding principle. Indeed, 482 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: so with that thoughts quandaries, let us know all of them, 483 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: mom stuff. A Discovery dot com is where you can 484 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: send your letters, and of course you can hit us 485 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: up on Facebook as well. And now for some letters, well, 486 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: we've got a couple of letters here in response to 487 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: our episode on vaginal rejuvenation Slash labya plasts slash designer 488 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: vaginas and these are from some female listeners. In the 489 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: last podcast, we read some responses from a couple of 490 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: male listeners. Here's what's some ladies guest to say A 491 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 1: listen rights I really identify with this podcast. I can 492 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: understand how a lot of women can be self conscious 493 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: about the appearance of their vaginas because usually the only 494 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: other one as we see are in porn. What else 495 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: do we have to compare ourselves to. I was extremely 496 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: self conscious during puberty, not about my vagina, but my 497 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: breasts for the same reason. I hadn't seen porn yet, 498 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: but all the breasts I did see we're in movies, 499 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: and they were always really perky and round, with small, 500 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: hard nipples. Mine started growing in more cone shaped with 501 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: larger nipples, and I was so afraid that my breasts 502 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: were ugly and no man would find them attractive, and 503 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: I'd never get to go skinny dipping with my friends 504 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: or do other random naked activities that I imagined I 505 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: would do when I got older. However, porn actually helped 506 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: in my situation because it wasn't professional porn, it was 507 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: amateur porn. Amateur point is normal people. So once I 508 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: got older and started seeing it, I was exposed all 509 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: kinds of different looking breasts and vaginas, and I realized 510 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: that my breasts were actually pretty normal looking. The perky, 511 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: round ones in the movies are pretty rare, and when 512 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: they actually do exist, I'm sure they don't stay that 513 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: way for long. So thank you, Alissa, and I have 514 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: a letter here from Caitlin, who wants to alert us 515 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: to a new perspective. She says, I, like most women, 516 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: was not aware of the variety of vulva sizes and 517 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: shapes out there and have definitely looked at my own 518 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: and wondered if it is quote unquote Okay. It wasn't 519 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: until I watched the British documentary The Perfect Vagina that 520 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: I discovered that many women have labia minora. They're longer 521 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: than their labia majora. My vulva is naturally close to 522 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: what you and Jezebel have described as the barbie, with 523 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: clamshell like labia majora and minora that are very small 524 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: and are hidden completely by the majora. In both the documentary, 525 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: in the Jezebel article and comments, there were many people 526 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: saying that the barbie style vulva is horrifying, not because 527 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: of the surgery involved, but because it creates an aesthetic 528 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: that is prepubescent, non sexual and like a little girl. 529 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: Well as a woman who has tiny labia minora, I 530 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,719 Speaker 1: just have to say, my vulva and I are definitely 531 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: not prepubescent and are very much sexual. I hope that 532 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: all of these conversations help people realize that there is 533 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: no best kind of vulva and that people will not 534 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: demean small minure in the process of celebrating all sizes 535 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,719 Speaker 1: of labia. So thank you. Katie for lending that perspective 536 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: there is no correct vola. Yeah, and that is such 537 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: a good point of in the process of kind of 538 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: taking a more critical eye to the ideal, to not 539 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: say that if someone does have that poor an ideal, 540 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: but that is bad in any any way whatsoever. So 541 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: thanks to everyone who's written into us. Keep the letters coming. 542 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at discovery dot com is where you can 543 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: send them. You can also contact us on Facebook start 544 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: a conversation. They're like us. While you're at it, you 545 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: can tweet us at mom Stuff podcast, and you can 546 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: also follow us on Tumbler. It's stuff Mom Never told 547 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: You dot tumbler dot com. And if you would like 548 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: to do a good thing for your brain this week, 549 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: you should head over to our website it's how Stuff 550 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: Works dot com for more on this and thousands of 551 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com. Five 552 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: seven