1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: Say It sixteen. 3 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 3: Six six. 4 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: Welcome to sixteenth minute, the show where we take in 5 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: notorious moment or main character of the Internet and remind 6 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: you that they're a person and so are you and 7 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 2: that sucks for everyone. And this week we're taking a 8 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: bit of an interlude, a breather, if you will. I 9 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: don't know if I've ever really, like, properly taken a breather. 10 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 2: Say it sounds like that scene from Midsomar when I'm 11 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 2: taking a breather? 12 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 4: Is that relaxing? See, I'm relaxing. 13 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 2: But occasionally, for sixteenth minute episodes to be the right length, 14 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 2: we will end up having to cut interviews that I 15 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 2: really love. In today's interview with Jason Kebler at four 16 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 2: or four Media is one of those. It touches on 17 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that's been on my mind, including 18 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: the reason that this episode is a little shorter than normal. 19 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 2: So we're gonna share these interviews that got cut, mostly 20 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: because I think they're instructive to what this show is about, 21 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: but also to ensure that the quality of this show 22 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: is staying consistent. And this interview actually motivated me to 23 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: want to talk about that a little more or at 24 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: least once, because the reality of making any reported digital 25 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: media right now is, in my opinion, even when you're 26 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: lucky to work with an incredible group of producers and 27 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: collaborators and are paid well to do it, as I 28 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,399 Speaker 2: am very lucky to be, there is still a lot 29 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 2: of pressure to produce right just like make as much 30 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: as possible. But if you want to make stuff to 31 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: the top of your ability, at some point this is 32 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 2: going to be at odds, right, or in order to 33 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: make it not at odds, you'll have to give other 34 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: parts of your life up. Jason and I start by 35 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 2: talking about a rise in AI art, but I was 36 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: really pleasantly surprised that we sort of took this turn 37 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: into talking about artists and creators and journalists being forced 38 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: to compete and compare themselves to machines, because that ethos 39 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: to make as much as possible ties into all these 40 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: dystopian problems that are happening around US. Journalists are losing 41 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: jobs in massive numbers. The remaining journalists are not paid 42 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: enough to make up for the fired people's absence, but 43 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: that are expected to cover the same amount at the 44 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 2: same skill level, and the archive of all of those 45 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: journalists work is being disappeared from the Internet as if 46 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 2: the labor never even took place. And this is a 47 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: tiny thing, but I cannot stand that analog media collectors 48 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: were right all the time. All of my Blu Ray 49 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: boyfriends were right. I was wrong to bully them for it. 50 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 2: I talked about this in the first episode of sixteenth Minute. 51 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 2: You are listening to a future piece of lost media. 52 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 2: I believe that anyone who's making anything and distributing it online, 53 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: and it's a lot of us, are being encouraged to 54 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 2: churn out content at unprecedented rates and are being told 55 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: to accept that that labor can be deleted from existence 56 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: if the company that happens to be your mommy needs 57 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: a tax cut. And so with this pressure to create 58 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: while being told that this creation is disposable, it feels 59 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 2: like some have taken a very depressing message away. Why 60 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: even bother to make something that you would stand by 61 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: if it's just gonna disappear anyways. It's a wrongheaded and 62 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: embarrassing takeaway. But I genuinely think that this is part 63 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: of why there is such a plagiarism issue across media 64 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: right now. It's really frustrating it's no excuse for that behavior, 65 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 2: but maybe you've noticed it. The mindset of oh cool, 66 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 2: I'll just make some shit up or steal it from 67 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: someone else so i can post more, because that's what 68 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 2: I'm supposed to be doing. I, along with millions of others, 69 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: watched a YouTube doc from h Bomber Guy late last 70 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: year called Plagiarism and YouTube about the proliferation of plagiarism 71 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: on YouTube that spotlights a few damning specific examples. And 72 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: all of these examples were creators, which, God, what a 73 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 2: nebulous term. I wish we needed a new word, crea tours. 74 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 2: All of these examples were creators who had ripped off 75 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: others without credit and the interest of producing more faster 76 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: that still felt like it could be made by them. 77 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: And sure, this problem has a lot of heads to 78 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: cut off. Another issue is that crediting practices online seem 79 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: to be worse than ever. I mean, I know early 80 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: in my podcasting I wasn't encouraged or as beholden to 81 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: provide detailed citation, and it produces problems like what we 82 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: talked about in the Black TikTok Strike episode. The TikTok 83 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 2: algorithm encourages people to replicate dances, but doesn't encourage them 84 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 2: to credit the choreographers. And that's how you get Charlie 85 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: Demilio with a million dollar brand deal performing other people's 86 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 2: work that she couldn't tell you the source of. But 87 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 2: the trickier thing here is the volume of content. H 88 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: Bomber Guy is an incredibly thoughtful and talented person. There's 89 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 2: no one like him, and he and his producer usually 90 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: make about one long video a year, a feature length, 91 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 2: carefully researched and cited video a year, with an eye 92 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 2: to visuals, to pacing, to all of these things. That's 93 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 2: why they're so good. They're taking the time. I'm not 94 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 2: introducing a new idea here, and in an equitable landscape, 95 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 2: everyone would have that time. But what I'm seeing for 96 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: newer creators is that the baseline encouragement is to make 97 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: as much as possible in a way that's not just 98 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: unsustainable if you stop hanging out with your friends in 99 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 2: a way that is literally impossible. And I'm guilty of this. 100 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 2: I'll sometimes see the output of one of my peers 101 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: and be like. 102 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 4: I need to do more. I'm not doing enough. 103 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: The problem is I don't know how that would be 104 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 2: possible without completely creating my life or starting to take 105 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: shortcuts making the thing a little bit worse. And I 106 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: feel tighthested and like I'm bitching and I'm fine. All 107 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 2: I'm trying to get at here is that I don't 108 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 2: know how to reconcile making the kind of quality things 109 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 2: that I want to make with the amount that people 110 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 2: are encouraged to make. I don't know how I would 111 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: do that unless I were a machine. And that's kind 112 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 2: of what I think we're being encouraged to do. And 113 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 2: how are being encouraged to think of ourselves produce things 114 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: at the rate of a machine while remaining a discernible, vulnerable, 115 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: advertisement reading savant. When I think about how I would 116 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: like to be able to work, it's embarrassing, right, Like 117 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: my ideal form is someone who can produce like a 118 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: machine while maintaining the just relatable enough veneer of nice 119 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: legs and gum disease. But more often than not those 120 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: things are in direct conflict. It's not possible. 121 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 4: It sucks. 122 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: It sucks that we're being encouraged to produce like machines, 123 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: But I'd be lying if I didn't say that. 124 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 4: At many points in my career. 125 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: That wasn't a fantasy of what I wish I were 126 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: capable of, which is you it's not punk rock at all. 127 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: What I meant to say was every so often, sixteenth 128 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: Minute is going to release a shorter episode of an 129 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 2: interview that I wasn't able to get into the final 130 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: cut of an episode. I am very guilty of assigning 131 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: myself too much homework, which my collaborator and producers Sophie 132 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 2: and Ian can certainly attest to. 133 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 4: I'm sorry, guys. 134 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: Today we are talking to Jason Kepler, whose work has 135 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 2: been invaluable to me in making this show, and I've 136 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: been a follower of his work for years before. We 137 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 2: originally recorded this for last week's episode about the sixty 138 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: five foot hot Dog in Times Square, because as I 139 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: was observing the online reception to this incredible public work 140 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: of art that was the sixty five foot hot Dog, 141 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: there was an even more prominent strain of art discourse 142 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 2: making the rounds in my little algorithm. So with that 143 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 2: in mind, here's a little setup of what we're dropping 144 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 2: into AI images. I know you've heard of them, sometimes 145 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: they're even called art. And in the weeks that the 146 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 2: Times Square hot Dog was this big fixation Facebook and 147 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 2: LinkedIn in particular, We're pushing AI artworks into algorithms at very, 148 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: very high rates, and tech journalists were starting to call bullshit. 149 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: This story was on my radar for a number of reasons. 150 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 2: As a listener of fellow cools on media podcast Plug 151 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: Better offline with ed Zitron Plug, I already knew that 152 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: Google implementing AI into its search engine had all but 153 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: blown the entire website up, and as a follower of 154 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: Jason Kebler at four h four Media, who was also 155 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 2: a former editor of Motherboard and a critical source in 156 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 2: our Boston Slide Coop episode, I started seeing reports of 157 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: Facebook being flooded with fake AI images. Now I've been 158 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: seeing aiart go viral for years. People had a lot 159 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 2: of fun with those early generators right and seeing the 160 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 2: polar Express movie looking results, But as time went on, 161 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: many were finding AI images harder and harder to identify 162 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 2: as AI images. Recently, there was a lot of talk 163 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: about the AI generated all eyes on Rafa graphic that 164 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 2: went around on Instagram in lieu of actual on the 165 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: ground images of Gaza, of which there were plenty that 166 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: would have done far more to demonstrate the severity and 167 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 2: the violence that is taking place as Palace Indians are 168 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: continually targeted and genocided by Israel and then over on 169 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: platforms that younger people kind of don't use anymore. Facebook 170 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: and LinkedIn. AI was flooding their algorithms and the images 171 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: taking off were unbelievably fucked up looking. Let's throw in 172 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 2: some music, why not? A series of AI photos of 173 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: a child in what appears to be an African rural 174 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 2: village with these weird art projects, A sea through motorcycle, 175 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 2: a portie made of popsicle sticks and bone Chillingly, a 176 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 2: wooden bust of Mark Zuckerberg, a hummingbird with gigantic hairy testicles, 177 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 2: with the caption ninety nine years of luck, you will 178 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 2: never lack money for your trip in travels, Peter Griffin 179 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,599 Speaker 2: sharing food with orphans in Africa. 180 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 4: A dead eyed Jesus Christ with. 181 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 2: The crown of thorns, surrounded by two beautiful light attendants, 182 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 2: one of whom is giving him a gigantic cheeseburger. Captioned 183 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: Beautiful Cabin Crew Scarlett Johansson hashtag boom challenge. So many 184 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: of them have This caption could not tell you why 185 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: with a gun to my head. These are kind of funny, right, 186 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 2: but on a long enough scrolling timeline, it gets unbelievably depressing. 187 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 2: And if they're in your feed, they're preventing you from 188 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: seeing something useful or at least made by a person. 189 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: And all of this made the conversation around a sixty 190 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: five foot hot dog with intent made by people, and 191 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 2: the importance of public art and public art funding feel 192 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 2: all the more relevant. I asked about the AI art 193 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: that is attempting to take over our social media feeds 194 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 2: with Jason Kebler. Here's our talk. 195 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 3: I'm Jason Kebler. I'm the co host of the four 196 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 3: Media podcast. 197 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 4: First of all, thank you so much for doing such 198 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 4: incredible work. 199 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 2: Your research into the slide cop was integral into getting 200 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: us closer to cracking that story. 201 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 4: No one has done it still, but. 202 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 3: I love slide Cop. 203 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: Yeah. 204 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 3: We got that Foya response back like the day before 205 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 3: we launched our new website, and I was like, oh, 206 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 3: we have to lead with that. 207 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 2: During the same period of time of this public artwork 208 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 2: and publicly funded artwork that I'm talking about, there is 209 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: another conversation going on about the rise of AI art 210 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 2: that is also being like flooded into algorithms in certain 211 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: areas of the Internet. 212 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 4: How did you first How did this first get on 213 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 4: your radar? 214 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean I've been aware of the fact 215 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 3: that AI art exists for a very long time. It's like, yeah, 216 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 3: you know, we sort of covered the rise of like 217 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 3: Dolly and mid Journey, and people just sort of like 218 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 3: generating images of like very often anime girls and then 219 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 3: like futuristic city scapes. It's like people either gravitate to 220 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 3: like hot women or like sci fi future. 221 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, like weird screen shaver images. 222 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, like when these things launch. But I think that 223 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 3: I first started seeing this as like a thing that 224 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 3: was just going to flood the Internet when I started 225 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 3: seeing these images like on Facebook all the time. Yeah, 226 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 3: And it started with, if you can believe it, like 227 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 3: a guy in the UK who sculpts dogs out of 228 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: logs using a chainsaw. He does like chainsaw art. So 229 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 3: it's like if you want a statue of your dog, 230 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 3: he will make one for you out of like a 231 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 3: giant piece of wood. Incredible, And this is like very expensive. 232 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 3: It caused like thousands of dollars and it takes him 233 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: like weeks to do and he like documents the entire 234 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 3: process as he does this and is like a social 235 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 3: media influencer alongside of selling these like wooden dogs. 236 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 2: That used to be one of my favorite areas of 237 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 2: YouTube was like weird art process videos, but at least 238 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: it was proof that it happened right. 239 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 3: And it's like, I mean, these are things like you 240 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 3: see him using the chainsaw. You see him taking like 241 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 3: a gigantic block or cylinder of wood and turning it 242 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 3: into like a German shepherd, and you know these this 243 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 3: is like a popular type of content online. It's like 244 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 3: it was going viral on its own. But then you know, 245 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: one of our readers actually sent it to me because 246 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 3: he had seen like fifty different versions of the same image, 247 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 3: except in every image the dog was slightly different or 248 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 3: the man was slightly different. The guy who does this 249 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 3: is like white, like twenty five year old from the 250 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 3: United Kingdom, and in some of the images this man 251 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 3: had become a one. Sometimes it was like he had 252 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 3: to go tee. Other times the guy was Latino. Sometimes 253 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 3: the dog was a German shepherd. Sometimes it was like 254 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 3: a Saint Bernard, other times it was like a poodle. 255 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 3: It was like but it wasn't very obviously AI. It's 256 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 3: like it was still like kind of realistic. So if 257 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 3: you were just like scrolling through, it's like, oh wow, 258 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 3: like lots of people are carving dogs these days, and 259 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 3: they were like going viral on Facebook. So I was like, oh, 260 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: like what's going on here? And then I found this 261 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 3: community of people on Facebook who were like documenting the 262 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 3: spread of this type of content where basically like a 263 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 3: viral image was being run through an AI and then 264 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 3: was going viral itself even though that new image was 265 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 3: not real. 266 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: Who benefits from these images being out there? 267 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's just like kind of run 268 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 3: of the mill spam. It's like Facebook has been filled 269 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: with spam for years at this point, and there are 270 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: people who are just like building pages that have tons 271 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 3: and tons of followers, and they're either selling the pages 272 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 3: or they like find some way of turning it into 273 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 3: either a scam or just like a spam opportunity. It's 274 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 3: like a lot of them link off of Facebook and 275 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 3: then you click on the link and you get like 276 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 3: nine hundred pop ups and they're all just like Google ads. 277 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 3: So you have people like collecting, you know, their pennies 278 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 3: from each of these little clicks. A lot of the 279 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 3: people who are doing these are in like Vietnam, Cambodia, Brazil, Nigeria, 280 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 3: and we know that because Facebook started making people disclose 281 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 3: like where they are located. Interesting if you run like 282 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 3: one of these pages, yeah, which was something that they 283 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 3: did like after like the fake news scare of twenty sixteen. 284 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 4: Okay, well seems to have really helped. 285 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 3: They surely, Yeah, yeah, But anyways, it's like a lot 286 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 3: of this stuff is happening in places where the cost 287 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 3: of living is a little bit lower, and so I 288 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 3: don't think that they're making tons of money, but they 289 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 3: are clearly making enough money that it's like beneficial for them. 290 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 2: To do it. They also seem to be sort of 291 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 2: like sticky inside of certain algorithms. I know you've written 292 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 2: about Facebook in particular and now also LinkedIn more recently. 293 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: From what you can gather, are these images more easily 294 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: sucked into algorithms than stuff that's real? 295 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 3: I think that some of it is so weird and 296 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 3: bizarre now that you kind of like can't help but 297 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 3: either click on it or like engage with it in 298 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 3: some way, even if you know that it's AI, it's 299 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 3: and so you know I'm a reporter. I've been seeking 300 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 3: this stuff out for a while, but once I started 301 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 3: clicking on it, that's all I got. I get like 302 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 3: tons and tons and tons of AI images. And I 303 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 3: think that Facebook hasn't been a super relevant platform for 304 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 3: people who are pretty online for a while. And so, yeah, 305 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 3: people don't like use Facebook that much. It's still has 306 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 3: billions of users, actually, but among journalists and comedians and 307 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 3: people who just like use the internet a lot, I 308 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 3: don't think Facebook is that popular anymore. And so I 309 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 3: know that some people like went back to Facebook when 310 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 3: they saw that this weird stuff was showing up there. 311 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 3: And then you click on like one image and that 312 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 3: ends up being like all that you see. You mentioned 313 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 3: the algorithm, And a really interesting thing that's happened is 314 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 3: TikTok was like the biggest threat to Facebook for a 315 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 3: long time. And by Facebook, I mean like meta the company, 316 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 3: because it was like destroying Instagram for a moment. That's 317 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 3: why they introduced reels. And like the big thing that 318 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 3: TikTok has is the for you page, which is the 319 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 3: algorithm where you just like open it and you can 320 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 3: scroll forever and you'll just see like stuff that you 321 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 3: that the app thinks that you'll like. And that's like 322 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 3: not something that Instagram and Facebook had for a long time. 323 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 3: It's something where like you opened it and you would 324 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 3: see there was an algorithm, but it was mostly from 325 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 3: pages that you followed or pages that people you liked 326 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 3: or were friends with engaged with. And Facebook launched this 327 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 3: thing about a year ago called Recommended for You, and 328 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 3: it's basically the TikTok algorithm, but for Facebook. I know 329 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 3: that was a long wind up, but basically what has 330 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 3: happened is Facebook has started showing people things that are 331 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 3: popular on Facebook, regardless of whether anyone you know has 332 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 3: like ever engaged with it, or has anything to do 333 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 3: with it, or like cares about it at all. And 334 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 3: that's how a lot of this stuff is getting recommended 335 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 3: because not only are these people like posting the ai images, 336 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 3: they then have like an apparatus to like comment, engage 337 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 3: with it and get it going in the algorithm for 338 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 3: lack of a better term, and then you end up 339 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 3: seeing it. 340 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 2: I know it's not the exact same thing, but like 341 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 2: when there was that significant Twitter algorithm shift and all 342 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 2: of a sudden, there are main characters introduced that probably 343 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 2: wouldn't have been possible ten years before because you never 344 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 2: would have seen them. 345 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 3: I've seen two things. One, there's like a bunch of 346 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 3: people on Facebook who can't tell that this stuff is AI. 347 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 3: There's like tons and tons of bots. And then there's 348 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 3: people don't know that it's AI. Then there's people who 349 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 3: do know that it's AI but are just like engaging 350 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 3: with it because it's weird. And then there's like a 351 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 3: whole other phenomenon that is happening where there are people 352 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 3: who have heard about AI art and know that aiart exists, 353 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 3: but don't want to be fooled by it. These are 354 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 3: people like a lot of my parents' friends, they've like 355 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 3: heard about AI and they like, I'm not going to 356 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 3: fall for it, because I like started asking people like 357 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 3: have you seen AI art on Facebook? Like are you 358 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 3: getting it on your Facebook? I like posted that on 359 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 3: Facebook and then ask people to send me examples of 360 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 3: AI art that showed up in their feed, and so 361 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 3: many people send me real stuff that they're like, this 362 00:20:44,800 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 3: art's too good, like I can't possibly be real, And 363 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 3: so I think this other thing is happening too, where 364 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 3: people like don't want to be seen as being an 365 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 3: idiot who fell for AI art, and so they have 366 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 3: their guard up to the point where like, that's fake, 367 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 3: that's fake. That's fake. 368 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: I saw a thread from an artist who was beside himself. 369 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 2: You could plug your own art into an AI driven 370 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 2: analysis bot that would tell you what the percentage of 371 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 2: likelihood that your own art was AI, and sometimes you 372 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 2: would get like a real piece of work that was 373 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 2: like this is seventy five percent likely to be AI. 374 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 2: And so there's actual artists who are beside themselves having 375 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 2: to defend what their art is is real. 376 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 3: AI art is like a black box algorithm, like you 377 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 3: type a prompton and something comes out the other end, 378 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 3: and you don't know exactly how that was made. And 379 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 3: then there are all these AI art detectors that themselves 380 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 3: are AI and themselves are like this black box that 381 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 3: we don't know how they work. And you know, some 382 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 3: of them are designed by people who are trying their 383 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 3: best and like trying to like help determine like is 384 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 3: this real? Is it's not? But then there's also a 385 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 3: bunch of like snake oil people out there making the 386 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 3: same thing. It's just calling real stuff bullshit because we 387 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 3: don't know how it works either. It's just like a 388 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 3: fake program that is also AI that is not accurate 389 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 3: or trustworthy either. 390 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 4: That's interesting that. 391 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, you've found that people are becoming so paranoid that 392 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 2: they're mistakenly preventing themselves from engaging with something that's real. 393 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 2: Probably an obvious question who stands to be harmed by 394 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: if this continues and trending in the same direction. 395 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that there is a backlash to this stuff, 396 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,239 Speaker 3: Like I don't think that people like it for the 397 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 3: most part, like the masses. I think that the masses 398 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 3: want to like engage with real art made by real 399 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 3: humans that time and effort and care was put into. 400 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 3: So I do think that what's happening is very bad 401 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 3: and scary. Like I have some optimism from the backlash 402 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 3: that we've seen where people are going to like specifically 403 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 3: seek out and support human journalists, human artists, human musicians. However, 404 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 3: I think that we're in a very critical moment now 405 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 3: where every single platform is like injecting some version of 406 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 3: AI into their platform and is being taken over by 407 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 3: AI spam to some extent. It's like Google has its 408 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 3: you know, AI discovery stuff, like Facebook is a mess, 409 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 3: Instagram has all these AI influencers on them now TikTok 410 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 3: is the same. I think discoverability on the internet is 411 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 3: what is most at risk. It's like, are we going 412 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: to be able to find human art When an algorithm 413 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 3: can make one thousand paintings in one second and a 414 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 3: human takes a week to paint a picture. It's just 415 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 3: like humans can't compete with the output that's happening, And 416 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 3: so I worry that human creativity and human stuff is 417 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 3: just going to get drowned out, rightfully. 418 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 2: So in the last year, a lot of talk about 419 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 2: you know, I hate they have to be like human creators, 420 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 2: but human creators who are making stuff, but they're trying 421 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: to please the algorithm. So they're making a lot of 422 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 2: stuff really fast. There's like a rise in plagiarism. There's 423 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: a rise in just like I need to have something out. 424 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: I don't care if it's good, I don't care if 425 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 2: it's anything. It's the only way to sustain and connecting 426 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 2: those two ideas of like, yes, there's been a huge 427 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: rise in finding out that someone who presents as very 428 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: genuine doesn't actually do their homework, outsources it somewhere, steals shit, 429 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: and that's awful, but I feel like it is in 430 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,479 Speaker 2: response to something where you know, it's a very cynical 431 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 2: way of being, Like how else do I compete when 432 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 2: you know there's an AI technology that can, at least 433 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 2: on its face, think it does what I do and 434 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: reach a larger. 435 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 4: Audience, Like what the fuck do you do? 436 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: Uh? 437 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 4: Not plagiarize other people? 438 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 2: But like it's just if I feel like it just 439 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 2: introduces all of these like ethical problems among human artists. 440 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 3: I approach this from, you know, the perspective of like 441 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 3: a journalist and a writer and someone who publishes blogs 442 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 3: on the Internet, and I think that what happened. I 443 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 3: think it's very similar for comedians and people who make 444 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 3: like TikTok videos and YouTubers and artists, where the Internet 445 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 3: is kind of a slot machine like a lottery. It's 446 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 3: like you spend a lot of time creating something and 447 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 3: then you publish it and either a bunch of people 448 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 3: look at it or like no one looks at it. 449 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 3: You either sort of like win the algorithmic lottery and 450 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 3: you get into the system that is like here's all 451 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 3: your retweets, here's your likes, here's your comments, and like 452 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,479 Speaker 3: you're going to get millions of views on this thing, 453 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 3: or you're gonna get hundreds of thousands of music on 454 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 3: this thing, or you're gonna get like nothing. And there 455 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 3: have been so many times where I have worked very 456 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 3: hard on an article and talk to like a lot 457 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 3: of people, like interviewed a bunch of people, spend a 458 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 3: lot of time, I'm on it, painstakingly edited it, and 459 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 3: then published it and no one reads it, and I'm like, oh, 460 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 3: that sucked. But then like five minutes later, I will see, 461 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 3: like I'll do something that I don't care about that 462 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 3: much and it will be like a short, jokey blog 463 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 3: about whatever, and I publish it and it goes massively viral, 464 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 3: and I'm like, cool, wish I could have made that 465 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 3: happen to the thing that I cared about versus the 466 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 3: other thing. And so I think that's how you end 467 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 3: up with this phenomenon that you're describing, where you want 468 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 3: to take as many bites at the apple as possible, 469 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 3: and like humans start behaving, humans start like doing stuff 470 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 3: trying to reverse engineer what will work with an algorithm. 471 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 3: And I think that's what makes me so scared about 472 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 3: AI generated content, is that a human might get one 473 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 3: bite at the apple or five bites at the apple 474 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 3: if they work very quickly, and the AI can take 475 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 3: like a million swings at it because it can just 476 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 3: endlessly generate different iterations of it. 477 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 2: Do you have advice for people who are combating this 478 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 2: machine in art specifically, but also just you know, if 479 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 2: your work is in constant contest with aiah. 480 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,479 Speaker 3: So I worked for a Vice for ten years, and 481 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 3: I'm proud of what we did there, and you know, 482 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 3: I don't think that what we did was bad, but 483 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 3: it was also part of like a big company where 484 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 3: we were like publishing lots of articles. We were you know, 485 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 3: trying to get people to read our stuff, so on 486 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 3: and so forth. And now you know, I started a 487 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 3: company with three of my former colleagues called four or 488 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 3: four Media, and it's we're not going to have the 489 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 3: scale that Vice had, Like we're not going to have 490 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 3: as many people read our stuff. But what we have 491 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 3: done and what sort of like gives me hope, is 492 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 3: we have started explaining to people that in our work, 493 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 3: like hello, we are human beings who are sitting at 494 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 3: a computer typing up our little posts and putting them 495 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 3: on our little website. And this takes a lot of time, 496 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 3: it takes a lot of effort, and here's like how 497 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,959 Speaker 3: we do it, and here's why you should support that. 498 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 3: We've tried to like give a peek behind the curtain 499 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 3: that sort of like documents the process of like what 500 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 3: reporting is. It's not that Vice never did that, but 501 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 3: it's like many of these like really big outlets have 502 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 3: like a view from nowhere where the journalist isn't like 503 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 3: inserting themselves into the work and the blogs just like 504 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 3: up here on the Internet. And I think that you 505 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 3: can take that and extend it to everything. It's like 506 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 3: if you're a photographer and there's just like you're just 507 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: posting photo photo, photo, photo photo, that those photos might 508 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 3: be great or the art that you're making might be great. 509 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 3: I think it's important to document like how much time 510 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 3: and effort and work goes into making the things that 511 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 3: you're making, and like explaining to people why it is 512 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 3: what differentiates you from someone who's shitting out fifty million 513 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 3: photos from mid journey or like writing a book on 514 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 3: chat GPT in three seconds and publishing forty of them 515 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 3: on Amazon. You know, like I think that that doesn't 516 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 3: mean that that we're going to win that we the 517 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 3: humans are going to like win versus a sort of 518 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 3: like tech industry and tech platforms that are not super 519 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 3: friendly to humans. Yeah, but I think that that is 520 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 3: like the the path forward. You want the work to 521 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 3: stand for itself. But I think you also kind of 522 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 3: need to be like. 523 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, working hard over here, like God, that's like 524 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 2: that is very pragmatic, Like I mean, essentially you have 525 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 2: to show here's the log, here is my change thaw, 526 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 2: here is how it becomes a German Shepherd's statue. I 527 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 2: shared the optimism that it does seem that most people 528 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: want what they consume, whether it's art, whether it's journalism, 529 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 2: they don't want a robot writing it. They trust the 530 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: person more than they trust the robot. 531 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. 532 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: Now there's also this additional Well, the best practice is 533 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 2: maybe to just like occasionally remind people that you're not 534 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 2: a robot. I think what you're doing is much smarter 535 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 2: because I think sometimes I like internalize weird shame about 536 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 2: my own process. 537 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,719 Speaker 3: Well, I think that's been drilled into artists and been 538 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 3: drilled into journalists too. It's like I went to journalism school, 539 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 3: which is extremely embarrassing, Like in retrospect, it's like I 540 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 3: was being trained to like go into a dead industry, but. 541 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 4: Like majored in radio. It's a thing that they. 542 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 3: Teach you is like objectivity, like you're not the story, 543 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 3: you're not a part of it, blah blah blah. And 544 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 3: it's like if you do that, nothing differentiates you from 545 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 3: the zillions of other people who are doing the same thing. 546 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 3: And I think that this is actually something that like 547 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 3: YouTubers and influencers have been very good at. It's like 548 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 3: I hate to hand it to Logan Paul or whatever, 549 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 3: but it's like he has people who specifically seek him 550 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 3: out and you can. I just said Logan Paul because 551 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 3: it's the first name that came to my head. But 552 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 3: it's like all of these influencers, all these comedians who 553 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 3: kind of give you like a peek behind the curtain 554 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 3: and like have a personality to them, also seem to 555 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 3: be doing better than like the institution that is like 556 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 3: we're just going to publish a bunch of kind of 557 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 3: like wire service articles. That said, it's like such an 558 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 3: extra thing that everyone now needs to do. It's like 559 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 3: you don't not only do you have to like do 560 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 3: the work, but then you have to like explain the work, 561 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 3: and then you have to like foster a community and 562 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 3: be beholden to that community, and it is pretty exhausting, 563 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 3: and it can come at the expense of hanging out 564 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 3: with your friends, responding to text messages from your mom 565 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 3: like yeah. 566 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 4: Because you're you're busy curiating something. That just a reminder 567 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 4: I'm a person. 568 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 2: Thanks so much to Jason, and you can subscribe to 569 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 2: four or four Media and check out their podcast in 570 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 2: the description. Their work is so fucking good and thorough 571 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 2: and they're reporting on tech in the Internet unlike anyone else. 572 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 2: And also thanks to Jason for just encouraging me to 573 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 2: share about my own process. I feel embarrassed, I feel naked. 574 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 2: It will never happen again, but there it is. In 575 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 2: all seriousness. This conversation was really useful for me. It 576 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: was a reminder that it's not reboten and it shouldn't 577 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 2: be discouraged to occasionally just say, hey, making something you 578 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 2: can stand by takes a while. When you hear these 579 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 2: shorter episodes, that's what's happening. I want to make sure 580 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 2: that you're listening to information that is good and thoughtful, 581 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 2: and I want to make sure that I don't accidentally 582 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 2: kill myself doing it, So thank you for listening. Try 583 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 2: not to work until three in the morning, and text 584 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 2: your mom back. We'll be back next week. 585 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 4: Glad You're here. 586 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: Sixteenth Minute is a production of Cool Zone Media and iHeartRadio. 587 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 4: It is written, posted, and produced by me Jamie Loftus. 588 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans Llamas 589 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 2: and Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. 590 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 4: Our theme song is. 591 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 2: By Sat thirteen and Pet. Shout outs to our dog 592 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 2: producer Anderson my Kat's Flee and Casper and by Pet 593 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 2: Rockbert who will outlive us all Bye.