WEBVTT - Ten Year Anniversary Special 0:00:01.160 --> 0:00:04.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:13.920 I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:15.960 to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:19.400 I'm Joe McCormick. And today we're we're looking back at 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:23.840 ten years of this show, and so we decided we 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.080 should have a special guest come on the show. So 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:30.920 we invited Allison louder Milk. Allison, say hi to everybody. Hello, 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.360 it's a pleasure to be here. Congratulations on ten years. 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:38.720 Oh thank you. Alison, by the way, hasn't been on 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:40.880 the podcast in a while, but she is the editor 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:43.519 in chief of how Stuff Works dot com, which of 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:47.199 course is the website that this show was born out of. 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.479 Really that that all of the core uh stuff shows 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:55.160 emerged from right right on. Yeah, So I guess if 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:56.960 you're if you're new to Stuff to Blow your Mind, 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.360 you probably don't know anything about this, you'd be you 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:03.040 may not have ever heard one of the earlier episodes 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.280 that has the title Stuff from the Science Lab, But 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.600 that's where it all began. Um, you and I co 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.800 hosted that show. It began on January four, two thousand 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:17.119 and ten, with two episodes were published on that day. 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.679 One of them titled Amazing Infestations, in the other one 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:23.920 titled How Fighting Asteroids Work. And that was the beginning. 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.200 And it's been what two episodes a week ever since. 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:29.840 Did you go back and listen to either of these 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.480 two podcasts and prepping for this episode? No, I didn't, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.600 but I thought back on them, I reflected back on 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:39.760 the thing is one of the things I was definitely 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:42.560 remembering about it is that, first of all, we had 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:44.800 no idea what we were doing. For the most part, 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.400 that is entirely true. I was a science writer for 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:50.880 the website and you were my editor, and so are 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.800 what was his title at the time, Our boss, Connald 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:57.200 Burne came to us and said, you guys should do 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:00.040 a science podcast. What do you want to call it? 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:02.960 And I believe we said, how about stuff that could 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:04.800 kill you? Or stuff that can kill you or something 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:07.960 to that effect, right, Yes, yes, it was. And so 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:10.360 because it was how stuff works, everything had to be stuff. 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:12.480 You had to stuff in the title. That was the mandate. 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.760 That was that was absolutely required. And we were like, well, 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:17.760 let's make maybe we make it a little edgy, you know, 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:22.440 it's about you know, explosions and supernova black holes, earthquakes. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:24.040 You know, we forgot we could get a lot of 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.840 mileage out of that. But then that was rejected and 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:30.000 he said, no, it's it's going to be called stuff 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:31.959 from the Science Lab. And so that's why we launched 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:36.720 with did you reject that? That that that goes very 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.040 counter to the naming conventions of podcasts today. Today, you 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:42.440 might propose stuff from the Science Lab and they would 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:44.519 be like, that sounds boring. You need to do stuff 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:46.880 that will kill you right. Well, one thing that we 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:50.600 we came across pretty quickly is that the name it 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:54.560 didn't really fit what we were producing because it some 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.720 people thought that it meant that it was going to 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.360 be very technical, that it was going to be very 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.240 science and slab, and so they came in and they 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.400 were disappointed by that because it wasn't uh you know, 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.240 it wasn't like it didn't have that that level of 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:10.919 depth to it. It was a much shorter show at 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.840 the time too. I think we were generally taking individual 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.200 articles that we've worked on together and spinning them off 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:21.240 into like sometimes like twenty minute episodes. I think, so 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.120 it was it was a much shorter show. It was 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.519 a in I also remember again coming back to the 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:30.560 fact that we were totally new to this audio recording thing. 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.079 I remember we would go through and do a complete 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.400 run through of the episode first and then attempt to 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.040 come back and do it again, which seemed like a 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.360 great idea at the time when we we we did 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:43.640 it that way, and we quickly realized that was that 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:45.880 was not the way to approach the show. Like it. 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.200 It kind of boiled out all the organic conversation. I 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.440 think I remember doing the same thing when we first 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.720 started podcasting. Yeah, when I was when I very first 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.840 started with UH with UM with Lauren Vogelbaum and Jonathan 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:04.000 Strickland on forward. Thing we would do like rehearsals, horrible idea, 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.600 absolutely brutal. Yeah, and then it makes you just even 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.360 more sick of the content when you get around it. Uh, 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:14.680 it removes any authentic enthusiasm you have for it. I 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:16.840 don't know what else am I am I'm missing about 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.719 the early days of the show. Well, we did throw 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.640 in a couple of science jokes which are ever so humorous. 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:26.080 Oh yes, like like straight up jokes, like almost we did. 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:27.840 I think that was a bit that we're like, well, 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.240 maybe we should have a joke in there. Yeah. I 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.080 think we were also asking listeners who to submit their 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:37.560 science based jokes. It was a bit of a clunker. 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.479 Um yeah, you know, looking back, I would say Stuff 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.680 from the Science Lab not the most inventive name ever. No, no, 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:47.480 And that's that's probably one of They eventually came back 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.600 and said, all right, stuff to Blow your Mind instead, 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:54.120 which is a good title but also has continually produced. 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:59.680 Um it has provided uh, you know, ready material for 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:01.800 any when he wants to say, well, that episode didn't 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.600 blow my mind, and so it's I have to say, 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.240 I don't think it's a great title either, because it's 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:10.760 not every topic is going to blow the mind whatever 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:14.840 that exactly is. I like the idea of an expansion 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:16.880 of the mind more, you know, and we might not 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.160 be expanding it by much, but maybe just a little bit. 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:21.520 And I think that's what we were trying to do 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.120 with Stuff from the Science Lab as well. Agree I 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.720 think that. I mean, there are a couple of things 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.200 and play their podcasts were just starting to break and 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.080 Kardle wanted to get in there, and I mean science 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.680 was a strong suit of how staff works. He was. 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:37.600 I mean, we were also looking at the business model, 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.080 just straight up double dipping, right. I mean you'd already 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.880 been immersed in this stuff like writing these articles, and 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.680 I had, of course spent a long time carefully editing, 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.640 so we were trying to, you know, make something else 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:51.919 to reach folks who maybe weren't going to read it, 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.279 but maybe they would listen to it. And then thirdly, 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:56.440 I mean we were just kind of in line with 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.120 the mission of the site, which is always, always, always 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.240 to just be explaining the world as much as we 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.680 can in an accessible and direct, incredible way. Yeah, the 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.839 mission to demystify the world. Um, those sometimes you have 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:11.479 to mystify it a little bit too, to make the 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:15.600 things that are normal and mundane seem you know, awesome 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.920 and inspiring again. But but yeah, I agree. And in 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.600 terms of double dipping, I mean that was another thing too, 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:23.919 Like this was very much a oh, by the way, 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.240 once you've done all this work, um on the written 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.400 version of this and the edited version of this, and 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:31.600 it's been published, and you picked out art for it, 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:34.680 and the arts been edited at the end of the day, 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.520 go ahead and squeeze out a twenty thirty minute podcast 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:41.640 episode about that topic. It was not the priority, uh 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:46.159 mission for the company. Man, Quadruple dipping was like the 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:48.040 rule of the day. When I was hired I think 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.279 in summer of two thousand ten to be an editor 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.839 at How Stuff Works. It was like the research that 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.320 went into writing an article would not just be an article, 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.480 but it would also become a quiz uh maybe an 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:03.200 image gallery like list or you know what I mean. Oh, Joe, 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:04.800 you were on the air, and Robert both of you. 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:06.720 Both of you all were on the air. So I mean, 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.320 why not, like, let's make a video script to yes 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.320 the video era. Let's yes that. That was also a 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:16.040 big one. Um. That has gone away for now. Well, 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:18.920 the pivot to video will return. It's part of the 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.600 ever changing cycle of media platforms. It's a well played pivot. 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.280 By the way, Hey, I have a question for y'all. 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:27.760 How do you think the show has evolved in the 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:31.160 years it's been on the air. Oh, well, that's a 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.720 good question. Um, I think the mission statement has always 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.200 been the same. Um. Also, I think a big part 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.320 of it is that everybody that's worked on the show 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:44.520 has contributed to the voice of it, not not only 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:46.840 like the individual episodes, but just sort of like the 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:49.760 shape of the show. So you played a vital role 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.440 when it was Stuff from the Science Lab, and then 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.280 when they changed the name, Julie Douglas came on board. 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:57.800 Julie Douglas was a vital, uh you know, part of 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:00.480 the show for for many years. When Christian was a 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:02.400 part of the show, he too. You know. Everybody brings 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:07.440 their own sort of pyramid of interests, their own favorite topics, 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.920 and I think a big part of it has always been, 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.960 you know, to to say yes to to whatever your 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.320 your podcast partner brings to the table, because inevitably, like 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:19.920 even today, like Joe will be excited about a topic 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.680 and I don't necessarily get it at first. Sometimes I 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:26.400 might even think this sounds kind of dry. I don't know, 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:28.920 but but I but I trust him on it, and 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:31.640 I follow him down the path and and it always 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:35.080 leads to something amazing. So I think that's been the 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.960 case with with everybody though, and and and so each 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.880 each person that has been involved has sort of broaden 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:42.960 the scope of the show. And you guys also have 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.880 magic between you, right, Yes, well there's the magic too. 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:52.000 Um no, just science. We have technology. We're like Batman 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.839 more so than Superman. Yes, and that brings in the 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:58.400 various editors who've worked on the show over the years, 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:01.440 which is a long live of audio editors, and I 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:04.240 don't even know that I was able to include everybody 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.560 as far as I know. Uh, the list of editors 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.680 for Stuff from the Science Lamp Slash Stuff to Blow 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:15.560 your Mind are Jerry Rowland, uh, Tyler Clang, Matt Frederick, 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:20.800 Noel Brown who also composed the current theme music, Alexander Williams, 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.880 Tary Harrison, Maya Cole, and then currently Seth Nicholas Johnson. 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.240 I don't know if I forgot anybody. I'm terrified that 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:32.080 we have, but yeah, definitely our producers helped bring the 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:34.120 magic because I mean, you would not want to hear 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:39.120 the unedited form of the show. But that's like stopping, 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:42.080 oh wait a minute, do we already talk about this, well, 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.800 that I'm just not saying words right and then to 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.600 back up yeah, or or having to double check something 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.200 after you've said it. I think that's that's something that 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.240 a lot of people don't necessarily understand about the way 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:55.719 we do the show or how some of the other 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.040 shows are done here, is that they'll see something like 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.800 the Joe Rogan experience where they they listen to the 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:04.040 podcast and they watch a video of the podcast taking 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.920 place before their eyes. And then you might easily think 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.120 that we're doing that as well, and hopefully that's the 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.880 illusion via the editing. But no, we're gonna have starts 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:17.600 and stops. Uh, it's it's an edited product. It's finally edited. 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.920 I will say, because I was listening to the Santa 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.320 God episodes that you put out right here for the holidays, 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:26.599 which I I'm just gonna be a fan girl, and 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.559 I really liked them. I thought it was super representative 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.360 of the podcast brand, and like the way you brought 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:37.000 your lens to it, like just this very specific stuff 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:42.120 to blow your mind, like academic curious, you know, playfully intellectual. 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.440 It was just they're really good. Totally dug them, thank 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.360 you um. And then of course you went back and 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.480 listen to the the original episodes as well. So really 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.839 you're the one who has more room too well to 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:57.840 critique me anyway, to say to what degree I've improved 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:01.120 or not improved over the past. Deck Robert, you're super 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.839 solid and you sound exactly the same. Okay, well that's 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:08.000 good or bad depending on how you look at it No, No, 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.120 I think good. Okay. So I remember what it felt 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.839 like when I first tried to get on Mike for 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:19.000 for the first podcast I was recording, and it was terrifying, paralyzing. 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.400 I had no idea what to say, I had no 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.640 idea how to talk. As soon as the you know, 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.520 light went on. Do you all remember feeling like that, Like, 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.560 did you have the same kind of uh fear and 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.000 inability to act or I don't know. Did you take 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:37.160 to it better than I did? I remember getting the 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.840 fear sweats, yeah, and it really took a long time 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.200 for that to go away. Always I think I'll even 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.760 occasionally get them uh where I'll feel like I'm I'm 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:51.400 sweating like a fearful animal. Um. But not so much anymore. 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.679 But back in the day, for sure, Yeah, absolutely I did. 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.040 I always felt like there was more prep that could 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.600 be done, that it could be tighter, you know that 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:04.520 I did articulated concept as finally as I could have. Um. Absolutely, 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:08.239 I was totally nervous and pretty in the dark. Yeah, 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:10.319 I mean all we had to go on, I mean 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:12.400 we had editor feedback, and certainly when we started out 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.760 we were working with Jerry and so she she was 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:19.000 the the in house expert on what a podcast was 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.160 and what it should be, so we had that to 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.959 go on, and then we had listener feedback, which could 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:28.240 range from very helpful to not helpful or or you'd 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.199 end up fixing. I remember fixating sometimes if someone would 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.280 right in and say, oh, you're saying um too many 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:38.160 times or or whatever the particular you know, the annoying 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.480 thing is you're doing, and then you become hyper aware 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.480 of it for a while, and you try and curb yourself, 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.360 and then eventually you kind of give up and you realize, well, 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:47.880 I'm just going to largely just be myself and I'm 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:49.720 just going to try and be comfortable in that second 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:53.120 guess everything I'm saying. But but at the same time 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.120 coming back to you know, always feeling like there's something 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.880 where you could have added, I think with stuff from 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.600 the science Lab especially. That was the case because we 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.480 were putting so much time into this written product, uh 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:07.800 and as a writer and editor, you know, at the 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:09.320 end of the day, we were hoping to have this 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.360 the best possible version of this thing to put on 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:17.040 the website, the best possible article, and then we were 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:18.720 sort of trying to do the same thing with the 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:23.200 audio version, which was a big ask, especially considering you 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.240 know that it was, like you said, a triple dip 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:30.199 piece of content, and ultimately, podcast as they've been put 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.599 together at at how stuff works were put together to 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.319 how stuff works, they ended up taking on a more 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:37.880 organic feel for the most part. They weren't this tightly 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:43.640 produced thing. Um, at the time, we're your early podcasts conversational, like, 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:45.720 did you feel like you were having a talk with 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.560 each other that in any way was genuine or was 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.000 it more just kind of like an information delivery system 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.240 in audio form, which is still have some people think 0:13:56.280 --> 0:14:00.199 of podcasts today. I mean, occasionally we'll get the criticism 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.280 that says, like, you guys don't need to talk about 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.040 these things, you know, just give us the information. Yeah, 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.679 stop having a conversation and just tell us who invented 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.680 the telephone. Um. I don't hear that very often, but 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:12.880 every now and then I'm gonna say that. Yeah. I 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.920 think in the beginning we were a little awkward and 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.760 it was a little bit like an information delivery system 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:21.360 because we want to make sure we got our points 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.200 out there. We wanted to make sure they're accurate and 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.760 you know, like Robert was saying, we wanted to make 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.160 sure that it was it was a good listen, you know, 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:33.200 a tightly produced asset. Um. So yeah, Joe, I think 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:36.800 it sometimes aired on that side. Um. And then I 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:39.200 think as we got more comfortable with it, we recorded 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:45.240 maybe eighty episodes, probably because we we basically went till 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.920 fall of that year, and that was when they rebranded 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.400 the show. And the weird thing was I definitely remember 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.920 that by the end we were I feel like that 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.400 was when we'd actually really found our groove. Part of 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.840 it being that we like some of the usher was off, 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:02.560 you know, they were like, oh, we're going to rebrand 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.280 the show anyway, and so we're like, okay, we can 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.240 just sort of have some fun with it. Um, which 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.240 in a ways, I mean kind of tragic because like 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.720 we were the show. If they've given it a little longer, 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.080 you know, it's like we were on the right track 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.320 with it. You know. It's funny. I'm not sure that 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.520 we would have gotten as long of a runway now 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.440 if we were to try to launch such a show, right, 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.000 I mean, we would have been killed within you know, 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:32.280 a couple episodes. Maybe we'd have been wildly successful, or 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.680 we would have been a sponsored podcast and therefore there 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.640 have been like a mandated number of episodes where it 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.480 would have been seasoned. I mean, there's so many there's 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.080 so many different versions of what a podcast is now 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:46.920 compared to what at least we thought of in house 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.840 at the time. Like I remember the weird things when 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.480 when everyone's talking about podcast I was thinking, Oh, yeah, 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.920 podcasts are these music shows that I listened to, Like 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.280 I was thinking to primarily DJ Mix podcast that was 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.000 pretty mu the only podcast I listened to. And then 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:06.320 also some MPR shows that were repurposed as podcasts or 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.200 sometimes like just Pira did as podcast. I remember being 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:13.200 given a CD filled with this American Life episodes and 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.480 like that was that was essentially podcast, but it was 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.480 like the piraated pre podcast version of that. Did you 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:20.520 all have a sense at the beginning that you were 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:24.120 in any way competing with that kind of thing? Were 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:28.800 you like competing with these highly produced NPR shows that, uh, 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.680 you know, I have all these like resources and editing 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.360 and all that, or or did you just think, oh, 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.920 we're just out here doing our thing. Um, I'm gonna 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.000 answer for myself. So Robert I'd love to hear what 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:43.960 your thoughts are. Um. I think that we sort of 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:45.640 or I sort of felt like I was operating in 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:49.640 a vacuum. You know. It's sort of, um still interesting 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.840 to me to hear my voice out there on some 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:57.320 you know, episode or something. Uh So, no, I don't. 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.880 I didn't think of myself as competition. I didn't think 0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:04.320 of us as competition. That said, I think I think 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.440 it is competition, right, I mean, I'm stating obvious here. 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.280 What about you, Robert, Um, I mean I still kind 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.359 of to this day, I look at a show like 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.560 Radio Lab and I think, Okay, Radio Lab is Star Wars, 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.719 you know, and in the best, you know version of that, 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:24.360 you know, like it is it is. Yeah, and and 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:28.200 just also wonderful content. I love I love that show. Um. 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:33.120 And But then our version of the podcast was not 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.800 a feature motion picture. It was maybe like a TV show, 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:39.000 you know. So it's like we were operating like that. 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:43.080 It was a different product. Were they in the same genre? 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.720 Uh yeah, it was there some crossover from from the 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:50.040 content from time to time, certainly, But but yeah, it 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.520 never really felt like like we were actually competing with them, 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:55.640 because it was just a different product. It's like we 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.680 we made socks, they made underwear, or vice versa, depending 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:00.840 on where you stand on socks versus underwear. I guess 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.879 you made socks. They made suits of armor. Yeah, we 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.080 made socks. Yeah, they made um like samurai swords or something. 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:09.719 But but still, like when you were in a good 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.280 pair of socks, nothing else samurai sword will not cut 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.879 it when you want to pair of good socks. Um, 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.159 And people are super loyal to their brands of socks. 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.960 But but another thing you you were asking about was like, how, 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:26.199 um about organic conversation in the early episodes, Um, I 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.439 think like that was something we kind of had to 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:32.800 learn because the weird thing about the kind of conversations 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.160 we had then and we have to to this day 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.280 on stuff to put your mind, is that you're not 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:43.480 really having what is an organic conversation, You're having a 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.360 version of it that someone's gonna eavesdrop on. It's kind 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.639 of like having a very intentional conversation at a party 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.199 because you know a particular person or some stranger that 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.080 you've just eyeballed is listening to you like it's a 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:59.199 weird beast. Well, yeah, I don't know how exactly to 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.880 explain what we do. I mean, it's not normal. It's 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.439 not like something that people would normally find themselves doing. 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:09.120 But it's not fake. When we have a conversation, it's 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.359 not a performance, but it's also but it is a performance. 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:17.080 It's like an organic conversation that is also a performance 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.840 but also has a bullet point, you know, a bulleted 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.320 list of facts that need to be uh, you know, 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.040 administered to the audience, right. I mean that's something that 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.400 comes up in the tension, Alison, you were mentioning earlier, 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.000 like you know, you wanted in the early episodes, you 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:32.719 were saying you wanted to put together a good product 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.359 that like what was the real value of how stuff 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.400 works At the time, it was like factual, well vetted 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:41.800 sourced information, you know, stuff that you could factually rely 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:46.360 on to whatever extent possible. And and I think that 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.000 can definitely tend like when you have that as a 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.199 goal in mind, that contend to make you want to 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:56.080 produce something that is a more kind of tightly controlled 0:19:56.119 --> 0:20:00.920 product like that that tends naturally against organic conversation. Uh So, 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.040 I know it's like this has always been part of 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.919 the difficulty, you know, in in my experience and podcasting 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:11.080 is balancing that, like, you know, real off the cuff, 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.480 approachable kind of feeling with making sure you get everything 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:18.040 right as best you can. Right. I think that particularly 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.080 in the subject areas of science and of course history. 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:23.560 The history host who have had to do this, you know, 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.560 and very just on the mark. I mean they have 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:29.000 to do umteen hours of research. I don't know what 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.720 their research count is now, but obtain and a half. 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:37.280 I think the day alright, time to take a quick break, 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.040 but we'll be right back. Okay, folks. 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