1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Call Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 2: Welcome to Nika Dappan here, a podcast about things falling apart, 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 2: how to put them back together again. I am your host, 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 2: Mia Wong. Return for the holidays, Returned, rejuvenated, returned, refreshed, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 2: Return to do something a little bit different. In the 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: coming weeks. We're going to be doing a lot of 7 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 2: nitty gritty analysis of the coming wave of fascism. But 8 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 2: what we haven't really been doing as much. What I 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 2: want to take some time to do today is to 10 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: talk about fascism atic sort of macro level and what 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 2: it looks like right now, and also talk about an 12 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 2: extremely cooked guy who blew himself up. 13 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 3: In a cut side of Trump Building with me to 14 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 3: talk about this is writer, organizer, agitator, doer of so 15 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 3: many different things that like, I don't know someone's going 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 3: to write a great biography in like one hundred years. 17 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 3: It is the one and only Vicky Oshtawhile. 18 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 4: Thank you. Sorry, I couldn't keep the giggle down long 19 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 4: enough for you to get to the intro before you're 20 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 4: you find people could hear me. 21 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm glad to have you here. And part part 22 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 2: of this the initial thing that was like okay, we 23 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: need to do this was I I saw you called 24 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: all of this the years of lead paint, and that 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 2: is just it has stuck in my mind every every 26 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 2: single second of every day since then. 27 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I was writing for the journal that I 28 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 4: am working and fundraising for CA Go take us Out, 29 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 4: But I wrote a piece about how unpleasant the cyberpunk 30 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 4: dystopia is in the face of you know, that sort 31 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 4: of that image of the cyber truck on fire outside 32 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 4: the Trump Hotel. Then about you know, as we were 33 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 4: about to talk about Matthew Livelsburger, I think is how 34 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 4: it's pronounced, who's the green beret? Then big Trump fan 35 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 4: who thought blowing up a cyber trunk outside of the 36 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 4: Trump Hotel would start not a race war, but like 37 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 4: the purging of democratic politicians? Is that we think his. 38 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, version that seems to be it like politicians and 39 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 2: like it's it's kind of an evolution of the like 40 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: purge the deep state thing where he wants democrats gone 41 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 2: from like the army and right right, you know, so 42 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: it's the kind of more generic version of like the 43 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: sort of Nazi fantasy of the day of the rope 44 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 2: from the Turner Diaries is kind of like metastasized into 45 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 2: all this right wing culture where they have their own 46 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 2: sort of like less race worry or like less antisemitic 47 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: versions of it. Yes, and that's apparently what this guy 48 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: was trying to start off by exactly flowing himself up 49 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 2: with a truck full of fireworks in front of a Trump. 50 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 4: So basically, this guy spaping a Green Beret, which, like 51 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 4: say what you will, arguably some of the most trained 52 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 4: and experienced murderers in the world, you know, whatever else 53 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 4: you saying about. 54 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 2: Them, And this is important, you know, like I'm not 55 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 2: sure there's any capacity drop in the world that is 56 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: greater than the drop from like green Beret to like 57 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 2: former Green Beret. This guy was active duty. 58 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 4: So like right, yes, yes, yes, exactly. 59 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: This wasn't even like a cooked vet. This is a 60 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 2: guy who is like in the shit. 61 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 4: And we know that he was drinking the kool aid 62 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 4: because he used chat GPT. He've just turned out today 63 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,279 Speaker 4: to help plan his attack. But unfortunately, despite his murder expertise, 64 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 4: which undeniable, cyber truck, like all Tesla's, is designed mostly 65 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 4: to endanger the people inside it because they won't sue 66 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 4: Tesla because they're already huge super fans, And what I 67 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 4: really mean, of course, is that they have terrible safety protocols. 68 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 4: And the cyber truck, which is like a twelve year 69 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 4: old's idea of a good idea, which is an incredibly 70 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 4: incredibly firm, stainless steel body which does not crumple and 71 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 4: does not take damage, which means that your frail human 72 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 4: body inside it in an accident bashes against a wall 73 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 4: of steel metal. It's very dangerous to be inside. But 74 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 4: the car doesn't take damage, and that means that if 75 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 4: you leave a bomb in it, the sides of the 76 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 4: car were fine, so the explosion went straight up right, 77 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 4: so it did no damage to the hotel. It's not 78 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 4: clear if he intended that, but it seems like he 79 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 4: probably wanted to do a little damage at the hotel. 80 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 4: Most people who are doing suicide bombings want that, I 81 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 4: would imagine. So anyway, all this is to say, you 82 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 4: know this guy who's like an active duty green Beret 83 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 4: who believes for some reason that attacking a Trump hotel 84 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 4: in an elon musk car will somehow lead to the 85 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 4: murder of Democrats. But he's so tech pilled that he 86 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 4: takes a cyber truck which doesn't even work as a 87 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 4: bomb and dies in it and just leaves this like 88 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 4: horrible image. And I mean, you know, I'm being flippant 89 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 4: about this, like it's awful thing obviously, but no one 90 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 4: else was hurt except himself. I mean, the image was 91 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 4: everywhere on social media for like the last three days 92 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 4: of that, of that cyber truck on fire outside the 93 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 4: Trump towers. Yeah, it was the perfect image of a 94 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 4: thing I had already been thinking of as the years 95 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 4: of lead paint. So I wrote an essay around that basically. 96 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I want to start talking about this by 97 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: getting a little bit into what the years of lead are, 98 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 2: because I imagine it's some of you. There's probably, like 99 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: I don't know, there's probably several thousand of you who 100 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: are obsessive nerds about the years of lead and like 101 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 2: know the name of every single guy he was implicated 102 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: for these car bombings, but for everyone else who's normal. 103 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: And I caught myself among the non normal people because 104 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: I did. I spent about two years going down the 105 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: years a lead rabbit hole and destroyed my brain. But 106 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: the years of lead were this thing in roughly the 107 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 2: seventies and the eighties in Italy, where as a response 108 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 2: to the sort of rising power of the left through 109 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: the sixties, and like the giant uprising is ninety sixty eight. 110 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 2: And Italy is kind of different from the rest of 111 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: Europe because in Italy, you know, like in France, for example, 112 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 2: France has this huge up rising in May sixty eight, 113 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: like they nearly knock off the government, like workers councils 114 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: have seized control of the factories, like they lose this 115 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 2: star bottle, Like there's you know, the president's like fleeing 116 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: at a helicopter. But then after that, like they kind 117 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 2: of never seriously threatened the French government. Again in Italy, 118 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 2: that is not true, like sixty eight. In Italy, there's 119 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: a very similar thing going on, but like the seizure 120 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 2: of the factories has been going on since like I mean, 121 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: stuff like this has been happening since the fifties, and 122 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: it really only stops in nineteen seventy seven, when like 123 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 2: they have one last big push uprising and it fails. 124 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: So as a way to contain this, the Italian government 125 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 2: develops this strategy of backing right wing terror groups and 126 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: then also orchestrating left wing terror groups and by terror groups. 127 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 2: I mean, like the most famous thing in this is 128 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 2: called the Bologna train bombing in nineteen eighty. It kills 129 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 2: eighty five people, wounds like two hundred and ninety. Like 130 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 2: it's a really really horrific attack, and it's immediately blamed 131 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 2: that an anarchist group. It turns out it's not an 132 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: anarchist group. It is a state back like fascist group. 133 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 2: And yeah, like there are other ones I will pass 134 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: overy to VICTI you talk about like the other terrible 135 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 2: shit that they did. 136 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 4: Well, that bombing kind of ends in some ways ends 137 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 4: the years of lad you could end it there. It's 138 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 4: sort of the last big terrorist month. The first thing, 139 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 4: the event that like sort of after sixty eight kind 140 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 4: of starts at as this thing called the Piazza Fontana 141 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 4: bombing in Milan, which is like an agriculture bank, I 142 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 4: think is what it's called. It's just like but seventeen 143 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 4: people are killed, almost one hundred people are wounded, and 144 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 4: the first thing that the police do is they blame 145 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 4: anarchists in sixty eight as well, and there's a famous 146 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 4: there's a famous case of this anarchist organizer named Pinelli 147 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 4: who is arrested and then while he is under interrogation, 148 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 4: falls out of the window of the police department to 149 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 4: his death. Yep, it has still never been proven that 150 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 4: he was pushed. The police claimed he've jumped out after 151 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 4: they interrogated him really hard. 152 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure. 153 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 4: Oh like here's a very famous Italian play about it 154 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 4: by Dario Foe called the Death of an Anarchist. So anyways, 155 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 4: they blame the anarchists, they literally murder a leading anarchist 156 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 4: printer and organizer, and then of course it turns out 157 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 4: that it was this terrorist group called ordinay Nuovo, who was, 158 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 4: you know, this neo fascist group that had let's say 159 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 4: significant overlap with parts of the Italian state. And I 160 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 4: think like one way of understanding the years of lead, 161 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 4: I think that might be easy for people who aren't 162 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 4: familiar with it, is that it's it's like a very 163 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 4: low level civil war. It's it's I think the closest 164 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 4: thing we can maybe think of is the troubles in 165 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,559 Speaker 4: Northern Ireland. And the reason those were a little different 166 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 4: was because a there's attacks were happening in England, whereas 167 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 4: like the you know, the movement was in Ireland. But 168 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 4: this is very similar, which is like there's these armed wings, 169 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 4: both on the right and the left. They're like both 170 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 4: meeting in combat and sort of fighting each other. But 171 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 4: in this instance, rather than a colonial occupation that they're 172 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 4: fighting against, the Italian government was literally both paying for 173 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 4: arming the fascists and instructing them to frame the left 174 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 4: for these attacks. 175 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's I mean, there's other stuff too. We're 176 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: not going to get into the kidnapping of Aldo Moro here. 177 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: I have explained this on the show at some point. 178 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 4: I think it's in. 179 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: I think it's in if you go to the Hall 180 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: of Weed episode we did where we talked about conspiracies. 181 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: I've explained that whole thing. But like the goal of this, right, 182 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 2: the reason that you know, they're they're giving all of 183 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: these weapons to these like stay behind networks, so it 184 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 2: was designed to like fight a Soviet invasion and like 185 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: and having all these bombings was specifically something they call 186 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 2: the strategy of tension, which is a strategy of promoting 187 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 2: sort of mass violence and promoting terror as a strategy 188 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: to drive people back towards the state. Because the idea 189 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 2: was this, and this seems to have worked. You know, 190 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: you scare people enough by the fact that there's you know, 191 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: there's bombs going off all the time, people are getting killed, 192 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: people are getting kidnapped, There's all of this just like 193 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: horror happening, and the goal is to get people to 194 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: turn to the state for you know, sort of order 195 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: insecurity and like stop doing all of this uprising stuff 196 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:19,599 Speaker 2: because we need you know, we need to sort of 197 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 2: terror to end. And it was extremely effective, and the 198 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: sort of knowledge of this has I guess proliferated through 199 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: the American left in the last like decade, and that 200 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 2: has led to a lot of I think kind of 201 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 2: unhelpful comparisons. You will hear people sometimes talk about like 202 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: American Gladio, which is Gladio is those those stay behind 203 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 2: networks that were armed by the Italian state and used 204 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: as sort of the basis of these neo fascist groups, 205 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 2: and like to refer to this sort of like I 206 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: don't like what's happening in the US, and that's not 207 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 2: really what's happening. And this is where I want to 208 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 2: pass it to VICKI to talk about sort of the 209 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: characteristics of what we'recalling the years of Lead Paint and 210 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 2: how they're sort of different from the Italian ones. 211 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, in classic American fashion. Everything is more chaotic and autonomous, yes, 212 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 4: and widely proliferated and also widely proliferated all over America 213 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 4: products and services. Did I do again? 214 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 2: Let's support this podcast that we are back, all right, 215 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 2: years of Blood Paint. 216 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 4: Let's go, yes, Right, So I actually think, you know, 217 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 4: as you were saying that, I think actually a thing 218 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 4: that might be the closest to Gladio And it's not Gladio, 219 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 4: because that was very conscious and it was like these 220 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 4: stay behind networks are organized explicitly but the US state 221 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 4: defense of the Second Amendment and of like assault rifle 222 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 4: availability and making the US the sort of home for 223 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 4: military surplus because obviously, like the military industrial complex sells 224 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 4: lots of guns. It's a very helpful thing that producing 225 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 4: a rain of mass shooters who also operate in a 226 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 4: sort of Years of Lead terroristic sort of strategy of tension. Way, 227 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 4: I think might actually be close. But you can tell 228 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 4: that that's very disorganized. Yeah, it's very distributed through the 229 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 4: social it's done by you know, volunteers, right. 230 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 231 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: And also the people who are doing the Years of 232 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 2: Lead are unbelievably cynical about it, right, Like they don't 233 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: they don't believe any of this shit, right, Yes, yes, 234 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,719 Speaker 2: no exactly, we're second amendmic guys like that stuff is 235 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 2: driven a lot by sort of like hardline true believers 236 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 2: who aren't trying to sort of like fuel a bunch 237 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: of mass shooting to push people in towards extreme like 238 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: increasingly right wing politics. That's sort of like not what 239 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 2: they were trying to do, but that's sort of you know, 240 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 2: that's the net effect of a lot of the stuff. 241 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't a conscious effort at all. 242 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 4: But that's also not the years of lead paint. That's 243 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 4: just like a similar thing, the years of lead paint, 244 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 4: which is obviously like which is a joke about. There's 245 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 4: this big reactionary myth from like the freakonomics guys. I think, yeah, 246 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 4: like the rise and crime is like correlated to like 247 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 4: the use of lead paint in children's bedrooms. 248 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 2: Which is really funny because for the freakonomics guy that 249 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: say down right left wing theory standard. 250 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, or maybe it was a dude directing it. 251 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 4: I don't even remember now anyway, So it became it 252 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 4: became a meme to like talk about sort of boomers 253 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 4: and Generation X people, you know, having the bled paint 254 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 4: in their gasoline and in their walls cause all this stuff. 255 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 4: Obviously I'm not advocating that kind of like ablest insult 256 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 4: when I talk about this, and is a memetic way 257 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 4: of making fun of that concept. But all of that 258 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 4: to say, they have completely drunk the kool aid, right, 259 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 4: the fascists, as you're saying, Yeah, they knew what they 260 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 4: were doing. They knew they were framing the left. They 261 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 4: were like making it up. But like a lot of 262 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 4: people on the right in Italy, yeah, yeah, in Italy, 263 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 4: excuse me, in Italy in the sixties and in the 264 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 4: actual years of lead, years of lead paint, you've got 265 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 4: people genuinely probably believing that January sixth was Antifa, like 266 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 4: people whose friends were there, you know, yea like stuff 267 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 4: like you And and the other thing that the reason 268 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,839 Speaker 4: this is years of lead pain and not the first 269 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 4: Trump administration is because during the first Trump administration there 270 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 4: was actually pretty pretty well organized on the ground fascist 271 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 4: movements and they could certainly come back in the US 272 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 4: right now. There's no reason they couldn't. 273 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's also worth talking about. We'll be covering 274 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 2: this on the show, like at some point in the 275 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 2: future when we've had time to go through the documents. 276 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 2: But there was recently a massive from distributed to Nile Secrets, 277 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 2: a massive drop of stuff on the militia movements from 278 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: a guy who infiltrated it. It's a very good Republic 279 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: of story talking about the guy that will link in 280 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: the show notes. So, like, the militia movement has survived, 281 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 2: but the kind of stuff that like we saw in 282 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 2: like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, twenty twenty, like is not. 283 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, the Proud Boys QAnon, the folks who made up 284 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 4: J six and the folks who made up the alt right, 285 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,599 Speaker 4: you know, broadly were largely defeated by anti fascists in 286 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 4: the street. And then the people who remained QAnon folks 287 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 4: who were I think, you know, some of those people 288 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 4: were pretty hardcore neo Nazis, obviously, but a lot of 289 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 4: those folks were confused Internet boomers, right, and like those 290 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 4: people mostly got discouraged by the repression. The repression I 291 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 4: think successfully sort of put the ends to that organized 292 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 4: q stuff. 293 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and also and I also we've talked about 294 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 2: on this show the other thing they put an end 295 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 2: to that was that the Daily Wire figured out that 296 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 2: you could use the literally the exact same structure of 297 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 2: Q and ompany make it about trans people. Yes, and 298 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: that has been unbelievably effective. 299 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 4: Now the strategy as a media strategy has continued. Yeah, 300 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 4: but as an on the ground organizing principle, it's not 301 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 4: that functional. Yeah, it's not, which is very lucky. But 302 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 4: what that means is that Trump has come to power 303 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 4: without a ground movement in the same way that he 304 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 4: had in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, Like that was a 305 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 4: real movement. His rallies were really well attended. His rallies 306 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 4: this election. People left early, you know it. It was 307 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 4: like going to see a losing team and their last 308 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 4: home game of the season. You know, was the vibe 309 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 4: at those rallies. 310 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, to do a very specific example, it's like the 311 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: vibe is like the last games of the Oakland Athletics 312 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 2: before they were fucking run out for their owner moved 313 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 2: from the last bag exactly where like they've had it 314 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 2: incredibly disappoin season, like deliberately by the owner who decided 315 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: to make who made a bad team so people wouldn't 316 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: fight him, Like moving the team to la like it's 317 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: like that kind of shit. 318 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, those are the vibes. And yet of course the Democrats, 319 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 4: in their infinite infinite capacities, lost the election. And so 320 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 4: what that means, though, is that is that you have 321 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 4: this moment where actually the right has as much power 322 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 4: in the federal government as it's ever had. You know, 323 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 4: the resistance is you know, they you know, they're very 324 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 4: proud of legally handing power to the man and ending 325 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 4: all of his charges or whatever. But the street movement 326 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 4: is disorganized. So you have this gap between the two 327 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 4: where there's this really powerful media apparatus Fox News, Truth, 328 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 4: Social X, the Everything app you know, all of these 329 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 4: like all these places where the fascists you know, and 330 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 4: I guess Meta has now just officially announced they're like 331 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 4: going to remove all content restrictions or whatever today. I mean, 332 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 4: you know, when we're recording this. So it's it's just 333 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 4: there's this huge, spectacular apparatus, but there isn't this on 334 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 4: the ground organizing. So you get people like this Green 335 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 4: Beret who has been really radicalized, made angry, desperate, and 336 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 4: like is blowing not even the Trump hotel up, which 337 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 4: would be a nonsensical thing to do, but like literally 338 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 4: failing to blow the Trump Hotel up in an attempt 339 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 4: to start the race war by getting Democrats hung. So 340 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 4: it's still kind of strategy of tension stuff, right, the 341 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 4: imagination of as you said, the Turner Diaries or this 342 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 4: sort of like you know, the right wing terror networks 343 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 4: in the US. You know, there's a reason they're obsessed 344 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 4: with attacking electrical power grits, right. They think if you 345 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 4: cause enough chaos, like you will return everything to the 346 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 4: hobbsy and world of all against all, and you'll get 347 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 4: a race war and everything will fall apart. Whatever it's 348 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 4: you know, it's step one, kill my family, step two, 349 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 4: question mark, question marks, step three, white supremacist revolution. It's horrifying. 350 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 4: I mean, it's a horrifying, horrifying idea, But that's happening 351 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 4: in these groups that have really really they believe I 352 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 4: think genuinely that, Like I think the right does not 353 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 4: understand the difference between like Nancy Pelosi and Asada Shakur, 354 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 4: Like they see them both as equally dangerous. 355 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: Right. 356 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 4: They hate Liz Cheney. Yeah, Like in the final days 357 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 4: of the election, she was the person they were saying, 358 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 4: we're gonna go after her, like Liz Cheney like. 359 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 2: Really like yeah, it's like like the closest parallel. Can 360 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 2: think of this as like there was a faction of 361 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 2: people during the Cold War who thought that, like the 362 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 2: Sino Soviet split between Russia and China was like faked, 363 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 2: and like they were literally guys murdering each other, like 364 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 2: Chinese and Russian troops were firing artillery at each other 365 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 2: like on the border like in sixty nine, right, like 366 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 2: and there were people who were convinced for the entire 367 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,719 Speaker 2: Cold War, even as like as China is invading Vietnam, 368 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 2: are completely convinced that the entire thing is a ploy 369 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 2: and that like and that's the secretly like the USSR 370 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: and the Pierce are working together, and these are not 371 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 2: like you know some random guys like these are These 372 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 2: are like the guys that like like the peak of 373 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: conservative power are absolutely convinced that this is true. And 374 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 2: this is I think, yeah, like this this is the 375 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 2: kind of thing we're in now with just like these 376 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 2: people are completely cooked. They they don't have any analytical 377 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: building whatsoever. They just they actually have drunk their own 378 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: kool aid. 379 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 4: There was just a scoop, sorry, the drop is real quick. 380 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 4: There was a scoop right before we got on to 381 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 4: record that Heritage Foundation. You know, authors have probably twenty 382 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 4: day five. Their new big plan is to go after Wikipedia. 383 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 4: They want to take down Wikipedia, like because because that's 384 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 4: a place you can verify facts at right, They've already 385 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 4: got the Post, They've got the Times, Like, what are 386 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 4: they gonna do? They gotta go af to Wikipedia. This 387 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 4: is the kind of like level of unreality they're trying 388 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 4: to build. 389 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and do you know what else builds a world 390 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: of unreality and that attempts to sell it to you? 391 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 4: Ooh, proxy services. 392 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 2: That's a fourth this podcast. Yes we are back. I'm 393 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:49,959 Speaker 2: very proud of that one. That that's one of the 394 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 2: best ones I've ever done. And I just completely off 395 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 2: the top of my head, I just came back better 396 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: than ever. She's never been so bad. So I want 397 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 2: to move a little bit from from the just what 398 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: does the state look like? How pilled are these people 399 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 2: kind of thing to I want to talk a bit 400 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 2: about the sort of macro thing that's going on here, 401 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: because I think part of what's what's happening here and 402 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: it's become kind of unfashionable in academic to talk about 403 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 2: neoliberalism because everyone got obsessed with like the Chips Act 404 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: and like the capacity of the state or whatever. But 405 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 2: I think, actually, if you want to understand what's going 406 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 2: on here, a good place to go is like going 407 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: back to here David Graver, and he has this line 408 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 2: talking about neoliberalism. I think this might God, I should 409 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: have actually looked up where this quote is from before 410 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 2: I quote it. I think it might be from the 411 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 2: Shock of Victory. But he has this line about how neoliberalism, 412 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 2: when given a choice between making their system actually work 413 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 2: and making it seem like any alternative, the neoliberalism is impossible. 414 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 2: It will always choose making the alternatives seem impossible, because 415 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: that's what neoliberalism is, right. This is, you know, the 416 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 2: sort of maxim of Margaret Thatchery is the no alternative. 417 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: It is a system that is designed to destroy all 418 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 2: alternatives in the you know, and this includes the possibility 419 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 2: of a future and the goal of this and this 420 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 2: is I think that the sort of dominant affect of 421 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: the years of lead paint is this induced helplessness. Yeah, 422 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 2: this is some thing thicky. I would ask you about 423 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 2: the sort of like induced helplessness of this moment. 424 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I was sort of vibing with what you're saying. 425 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 4: But yeah, I think a lot of people online have 426 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 4: accepted sort of you know, don't give in an advance, right. 427 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 4: But like, I think one big thing that has been 428 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 4: part of the Biden like strategy of counter revolution and 429 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 4: part of what's been going on over the last four years, 430 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 4: but indeed over the last four decades as well as 431 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 4: sort of part of neoliberalism, is like the idea that 432 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 4: you actually really can't do stuff yourself. You need a market, 433 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 4: you need assistance, you need a professional, you need an 434 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 4: expert to make a choice right, and any choice made otherwise, 435 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 4: you know, is dooms to failure. Right. And I think 436 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 4: part of why Trump feels like to people, some people 437 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,479 Speaker 4: like he's resisting the old is because he's like, no, no, no, 438 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 4: I don't listen to experts. I don't listen to anyone 439 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 4: except my gut. I just do what I want. The 440 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 4: incredibly exhausting and miserablest strategy of the previous thirty years 441 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 4: of politics, which is you get a ton of expert 442 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 4: reviews and then you do a political change that moves 443 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 4: things like twelve percent one way, you know, nudge politics 444 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 4: as like Barack Obama loved or whatever. Right, So that's 445 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 4: sort of like there's there's that sense. But then on 446 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 4: the individual sense, it's also about distributing the workplaces and 447 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 4: breaking down the possibility of labor solidarity, right, because part 448 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 4: of what the sixties was and the reason the sixties 449 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 4: lasted so long in Italy is because Italy had the 450 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 4: biggest factories and had the like the last in Western Europe. 451 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 4: They had the last folks still becoming proletarians from peasantry, 452 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 4: like coming up from Sicily. So they had this like massive, 453 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 4: massive factories that had these like crazy strikes over and 454 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 4: over again. So the distribution of labor, you know, with globalization, 455 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 4: neol liberalism and blah blah blah, breaking down labor workforce. Like, 456 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 4: we also are very helpless individually in our workplaces, right, 457 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 4: and like we go to the HR department to get help, 458 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 4: right where we sort of get self care. We like 459 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,479 Speaker 4: work on ourselves. We get therapy, you know that our 460 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 4: boss offers us you know, thoughts and prayers right when 461 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 4: when things are hard. But like there's a big attempt 462 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 4: to allow people to define themselves sort of the carrot. 463 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 4: The carrot of the sixties was like, you know, you 464 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 4: get to like have an identity, like, Okay, we won't 465 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 4: be officially racist, yeah, quote unquote, you know, okay, we 466 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 4: won't be officially sexist. And they claim, okay, whatever, none 467 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 4: of that's true, but they but they sort of sell that, 468 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 4: and then they say, but in return, you have to 469 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 4: like do all of the self work. You have to 470 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 4: be an identity in the marketplace. So basically you get 471 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 4: exhausted because like even choosing what shoes to wear becomes 472 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 4: like both an identity defining question and an exhausting slog 473 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 4: through debt structures and infinite market places, right, like, and 474 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 4: so that in you know, spoony world, we call that 475 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 4: sort of choice paralysis, right, And I think that's probably 476 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 4: accepted as well, that like you have so much choice 477 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 4: that you feel absolutely helpless on the face of it. 478 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 4: You can't do anything, and so that produces a craving 479 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 4: for authoritarianism, for authority, right, That's another thing people want, 480 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 4: is like someone else decide for me. I'm sick of 481 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 4: thinking about this. 482 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's I think been one of the most 483 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 2: important aspects of everything that's been happening right now, is 484 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 2: this sort of strategy of exhaustion and this demand for 485 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 2: someone else to make choices for you to free you 486 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: from this just like this endless nightmare of like trying 487 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: to figure out which healthcare plan you're supposed to buy 488 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 2: and shit like that, and oh my god, you know, 489 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 2: and the right has a bunch of alternatives here right 490 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 2: with like this is the fantasy of what treadwives is. 491 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: It's like what if someone else did your thinking for you. 492 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 2: It's also the entire logic behind AI right and be 493 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: trying this sort of AI agent's thing that they're like 494 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 2: pushing right now to go listen to our and see 495 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 2: US coverage and here a much about it is like 496 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 2: what if someone just like planned your life for you? 497 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: Right? 498 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 2: What if you could talk to a machine and it 499 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: would plan all your trips and it would tell you 500 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 2: what to eat, and we would tell you how to live. 501 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 2: And this is you know, this is also the structure 502 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: of cults work Like this is why colts have been 503 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 2: able to attract people that, like, I think the media 504 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 2: conception of cults you wouldn't think would be in them, 505 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 2: as why there's so many engineers in cults, because there's 506 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: like a once of people who have to make choices constantly, 507 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: and the cult is like, hey, what if I just 508 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 2: like made all of these choices for you? And this 509 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 2: is ultimately, you know, we talked about this a little 510 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 2: bit before. This is ultimately part of what's going on 511 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 2: with like trump Ism, right, because Trump is also to 512 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 2: some extent like if you're in this movement, like you 513 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 2: no longer have to choose anymore. You just you know, 514 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: here is the guy. The guy is going to do 515 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: the thing for you. This is also if you go 516 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 2: back to your original sort of conceptions of fascism, right, 517 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 2: it's about the sort of populace delegates their will into 518 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 2: the single heroic individual, and the single heroic individual like 519 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 2: acts outside of the bonds of the system in order 520 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 2: to preserve it and like does all this stuff for you? 521 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 2: And I think there's a combination of that with this 522 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 2: sort of paralysis and exhaustion, particularly like exhaustion and anxiety 523 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 2: also and this something that is very well documented that 524 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: you know, when are going to get in to a 525 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 2: full here. But all the stuff we've been talking about 526 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 2: about the information space, where there's just constant deluge of 527 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 2: just nonsense that's designed specifically not even necessarily to convince 528 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: you that something is true, but to convince you that 529 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: it's impossible to figure out what is happening, and to 530 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 2: make you just give up. And when you're refusing to 531 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 2: make a choice between like was there a gas attack 532 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: in Syria or was it like staged by the rebels 533 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: as the fallse flag, right, you're refusing to make the choice, 534 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 2: has the effect of legitimizing both of them and also 535 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 2: removes you from sort of the field of play of action. 536 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: And this has been a really important part of this 537 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 2: to sort of demobilize the left. Like it's part of 538 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 2: what the sort of Tulsi gabberd gambit was right, was 539 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: that you could take a bunch of this sort of 540 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,959 Speaker 2: like rising nominally anti imperialist thing and you could just 541 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: do this shit to them. And you know, now, Tulsi 542 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 2: Gabbert is like one of the big people in Trump world. 543 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 4: Right, I think, what's his name? I disrespect him by 544 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 4: not remembering his name, but I should. For the podcast, 545 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 4: Steve Bannon put it well when he said, just flood 546 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 4: the zone with shit, right, that's sort of the strategy. 547 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 4: You just release so much terrible information that it doesn't 548 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 4: matter and This is how Trump also like kept ahead 549 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 4: of his you know, many scandals, as he would just 550 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 4: like say the next most outrageous thing, and you know, 551 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 4: you'd have to commit to responding to one, but he 552 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 4: was already the next thing. And it was just a 553 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 4: sort of like amplifying, amplifying wave of like chaos and 554 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 4: nonsense that you eventually, yeah, you get bowled over by it, 555 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 4: you get exhausted. And I think, you know, you mentioned 556 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 4: healthcare markets, and I think, like that's really that's really 557 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 4: telling too, because we've just like lived through a pandemic. 558 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 4: We're in the midst of a pandemic. Covids is in 559 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 4: another wave that like no one has named right now, 560 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 4: and no one even mentioned healthcare, let alone the pandemic 561 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 4: during the election of twenty twenty four. 562 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 563 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 4: So part of what's been going on too is that 564 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 4: there has been this mass push by the Biden administration 565 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 4: of the Democrats to make us forget what happened in 566 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 4: twenty twenty in terms of the uprising. Yeah, and then 567 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 4: make us forget the pandemic, which is so unpopular and 568 00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 4: which continuing to actually prevent would have done significant damage 569 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 4: to the economy. Right. It was already pretty bad for it, 570 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 4: and it would have continued to get worse. So everyone 571 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 4: had to be forced back to work. How do you 572 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 4: force people back to work who evidently care about each 573 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 4: other and their own safety. You lied to them, You 574 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 4: confuse them about what's actually going on. Right, So there's 575 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 4: been this huge priming of the pump for this strategy 576 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 4: by Biden and the Democrats, and by our own exhaustion 577 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 4: over the pandemic and the fact that we had to 578 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 4: go back to work, so we had to get over 579 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 4: the cognitive dissonance of that. So all of these factors 580 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 4: together have produced a psychic stew culturally in which people 581 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 4: are very susceptible to just throwing up their hands and going, 582 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 4: I don't know whatever. 583 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. But on the other hand, the strategy of the 584 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: Years of Lead was a strategy born of strength, right, 585 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 2: the Years of Lead paint This is not a strategy 586 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 2: built by people who have an incredibly solid grasp on power. Right. 587 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 2: The actual base that put Trump in power, right, and 588 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: their actual political base is incredibly brittle. Right, they are 589 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: about to tank the entire global economy like through by 590 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: by putting like fifty percent tariff from like every single 591 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 2: country in the world. They Okay, let's let's be accurate 592 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: here that on on on Chinese, Mexican and Canadian goods, 593 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 2: which is like, okay, like I'm gonna I'm gonna ask 594 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 2: you as an exercise to the reader to go look 595 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 2: up the places that the US imports things from. Right, So, like, 596 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 2: you know, this is how you resist. This is this 597 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 2: how you resist. Here you're learned helplessness is by going 598 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: and research and things for yourself. But you know they're 599 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: about to annihilate the entire economy when the thing that 600 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: brought into power was fury at rising prices. Right, these 601 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,239 Speaker 2: fucking arrogant bastards have sown the winds and they are 602 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: going to reap the fucking whirlwind. The basis of this 603 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 2: fucking of this entire strategy, you know, And I ask 604 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 2: you this, like, dear listener, do you think these people 605 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: can hold three hundred and thirty million people in line 606 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 2: by sheer force? No, of course not. There's no fucking way. 607 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 2: This is the most heavily armed population that has ever 608 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: existed in human history. Right. This strategy is the strategy 609 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: that is built around getting your compliance, Yes, and if 610 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: they can't get your compliance by you agreeing with them. 611 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: They're going to attempt to get your compliance by just 612 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 2: taking you out of the equation. Right. They need you scared, 613 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 2: They need you confused, They need you completely convinced of 614 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: your own helplessness. They need you to forget that, as 615 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: the old song says, in your hands is placed to 616 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 2: power greater than their hoarded gold, greater than the might 617 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 2: of armies magnified a thousandfold. They need you to forget 618 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 2: the next line of the song, which goes, we can 619 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: bring to birth a new world from the ashes of 620 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 2: the old when the union makes us strong. And this 621 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 2: is the entire fucking thing, right, If these people were 622 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: actually strong, they would not need an entire strategy that 623 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 2: was based around political demobilization. 624 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. 625 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: And the thing is right, The thing about this moment 626 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 2: is that basically everyone is incredibly disorganized. However, comma that 627 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 2: means that you just literally any random person can just 628 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 2: take the things that you know how to do and 629 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: start organizing. The system is designed, I mean to make 630 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: sure that you don't do that. And guess what, it's 631 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: not very hard for you to pick up the things 632 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: that you know how to do. For you to use 633 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: the relationships in people you know in your life to 634 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,959 Speaker 2: get together with them and to go do things. And 635 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: they are fucking terrified of this. Yes, their entire strategies 636 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: to make sure that you simply do not do this. 637 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,959 Speaker 2: And every single one of you has the power to 638 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: do this. And I know this because I also was 639 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 2: just some random dipshit Like I was just literally a 640 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 2: random college student, right, Like, I was just some asshole, 641 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 2: and I just started doing things right and I got 642 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: together with my friends and we fucking we made a 643 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: tendance union and we did anti I stuff, and we 644 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 2: did all of this shit. And it wasn't that like 645 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 2: any of us are any different than you. We just 646 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 2: you know, decided one day we were going to do it. 647 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 2: And it happens to return one last time to David Graeber. 648 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: One of one of his most famous quotes is the 649 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 2: ultimate hidden truth of this world is that it is 650 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 2: something that we make and could just as easily make differently. 651 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 2: And everyone who is in power right now is absolutely 652 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 2: terrified of the idea of you making this world differently, 653 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 2: and together we can do that. 654 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 4: Yes, that's exactly right. And another thing that I think 655 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 4: is really powerful about getting started in that way is 656 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,719 Speaker 4: that all of those false choices they become so much 657 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 4: less important. And actually, when you have a real goal 658 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 4: that you and your friends have made together that you're 659 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 4: building towards, it's actually a lot easier to make choices 660 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 4: as to make decisions. Yeah, because you would know what 661 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 4: you need for the next step, or you'll have an 662 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 4: idea of it. You might make a mistake, you might 663 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 4: be wrong, but each step along that way, like, it's 664 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 4: an easier way to do this and to feel the 665 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 4: power of real choices rather than the false choices of 666 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 4: like do you want your AI from Grock or do 667 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 4: you want it from CHATGBT right, and obviously like that's 668 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 4: a joke, but it's true that they aren't offering us 669 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 4: anything anymore. They have decided, they have decided that what 670 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 4: we get is stomped We get stomped on. That's what 671 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 4: they've agreed to give us. Is like getting stomped on. Like, okay, 672 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 4: that was always what they wanted to give us in 673 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 4: the past, but they might learn very very quickly and 674 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 4: reaping the whirlwind that the reason that a century of 675 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 4: American politicians have tipped their hat to democratic norms and 676 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 4: have tried really hard to preserve the niceties of the 677 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 4: government is because they have a slightly fresher memory of 678 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 4: the French Revolution and the guillotines, which haunts them, or 679 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 4: the Haitian Revolution, which is the real fear lurking behind 680 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 4: the fear of the French. Yeah, when the slaves rose 681 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 4: up and destroyed the sugar plantation of Heiti, and it 682 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 4: has been punished ever since. The point being that these 683 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 4: things that they are overwhelming, This flooding the zone was shit, 684 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 4: as MIAs says, is from a position of weakness, because 685 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 4: when they were strong, when they were strong, they had 686 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 4: Obama was a sign of strength. We can elect a 687 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 4: black person, a black man in this racist country and 688 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 4: we and he can just go on hope like and 689 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 4: he can actually make very few changes and still be 690 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 4: incredibly popular, like even through a huge economic collapse. Right, 691 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 4: that was a sort of strong gesture. Trump is a 692 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 4: sign of real senescence. Then I use the phrase advisably. 693 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 4: And there are a lot of holes. And they have 694 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 4: drunk the kool aid. The right has drunk the kool aid. 695 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 4: They don't know the difference between democrats and anarchists. Not really, 696 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 4: They genuinely don't really know the difference. Some of them do, 697 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 4: their philosophers do, but the main ones on the street 698 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,479 Speaker 4: have no idea about the difference. That gives us a 699 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 4: lot of space to move, That gives us a lot 700 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 4: of space to take action, to build things that are 701 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 4: invisible to them, and that might be invisible to social media, 702 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 4: which is a place built around reinforcing our helplessness. In 703 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 4: many ways. The strategies we have to take will be 704 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 4: less visible in many ways, I think, than they were 705 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 4: in previous times, and they're going to have to be 706 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 4: of necessity because maga is basically you know, it's the 707 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 4: eye of sore on and if it lands on you, 708 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 4: you're in trouble. But if it doesn't, like, you can 709 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 4: just kind of move, and if you don't you run 710 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 4: into any any trouble like, you can get a lot done. 711 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 4: I think that's as much as I'll say about that. 712 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 4: But there's a lot to do, and there's a lot 713 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 4: of movements to make and a lot of building to 714 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 4: do that will both give you a sense of power 715 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 4: and solve these big problems for you and your community. 716 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 4: And if enough people start doing that, then they will 717 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 4: take away all their power. 718 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 719 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 720 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,240 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 721 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 722 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 1: now find sources for it could happen here listed directly 723 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.