1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: And I'm Doctor Adity in the Rucar, a physician and 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: medical correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: mental health, and burnout. We're here to peel back to 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: layers around why it's so easy for society to guard 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: men's time as if it's diamonds and to treat women's 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: time as if it's infinite like sands. And whether you 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: are partnered with or without children, or in a career 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: where you want more boundaries, this is the place for 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: you for all family structures. We're here to take a 13 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: time out to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 1: our time. Hi, Hi d D. I'm going to tell 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,319 Speaker 1: you another story today. It's a story that I tell 16 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: in fair Play that I think about all the time. 17 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: It was about a woman that I met that I 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: called Josie. Since she was a young kid, she identified 19 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: herself as a skier because when she was eight years old, 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: her parents blurred on a winter ski camp for the Poconot, 21 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: and she told me about the feeling she felt at 22 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: the end of that first day that she was never 23 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: going to come off that mountain, that she felt spiritually 24 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: connected to the world in a way an eight that 25 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: sometimes when we're in uh, I I just recentent eight 26 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: year old. He's now ten, but that's when his I 27 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: think existential thinking began. And she said she felt really 28 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: connected with nature, and as she got older, her love 29 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: for the sport just grew. She did everything she could 30 00:01:53,920 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: to ski. She worked after school, she saved money, and 31 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: eventually she earned a ski scholarship at the University of Vermont, 32 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: where she joined their alpine ski team. And then she 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: tells me about a day after marriaging kids, where ten 34 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: years into her marriage, she was feeling a really deep 35 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: loss and longing for her earlier self. She had not 36 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: kept up her ski practice, and so she planned a 37 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: ski vacation with her family. She was really excited about it. 38 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: So the trip happens. They were going to the Poconos. 39 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: She was introducing her kids to that first mountain that 40 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: she felt that spiritual feeling. But her flight from Tampa 41 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: to Philadelphia took longer than expected. There were long delays 42 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: in connecting flights that made everyone cranky, and by the 43 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: time they started to descend, Josie's two older boys were 44 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: being screamed at by the light attendants, taking off their seatbelts, 45 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: throwing snats at each other at the flight attendants. She 46 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: had her thirteen month old with her and she was 47 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: still breastfeeding, and she started to feel like she had 48 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: to breastfeed or she was going to get mastadis. Her husband, 49 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: usually helpful, was in a terrible mood and they collect 50 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: their bags, their double stroller, their booster seats from the 51 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: baggage carousel. She's dealing with three melting down kids, a 52 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: child on her boob, whining about being hungry, and in 53 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: all of the chaos, the thing that she was most 54 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: excited to bring with her her beloved skis. She had others, 55 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: but she kept this one pair that felt very sentimental 56 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: to her. Her beloved skis did not come out from 57 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: the luggage on time, and she tells me about the 58 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: feeling of saying, I'm going to resign myself to leaving 59 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: these skis at the airport. Her child needed to nurse, 60 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: she really needed to get to the hotel, and they 61 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: left and she says, you know, I really spent that 62 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: weekend tending to the baby. My husband tried to get 63 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: my kids interested in skiing. They grew bored. They've made snowman. 64 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: They spent a lot of the time in the room 65 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: and their devices, And she was really reflecting on the 66 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: fact that a piece of her was left behind when 67 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: she left behind her skis. She ended up eventually got 68 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: her skis, she found them, but the whole experience to 69 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: her was a metaphor for what it means to love 70 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: something so much and then as life goes on, to 71 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: leave that piece of you behind. You know, motherhood is 72 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: just one facet of a multifaceted life, and for this 73 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: woman Josie, skiing was such a large part of her 74 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: identity prior to getting married and having children and having 75 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: a family, and those skis really represented that part of 76 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: her identity which she cherished and valued. She had lost 77 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: along the way and was trying to reclaim it on 78 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 1: this trip and passed down that legacy to the next generation. 79 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: And so losing the skis was never about the skis. 80 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: It was something so much greater than that. It's like 81 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: when she lost the skis, she was fighting for that 82 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: part of her identity and holding onto it. And what 83 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:45,119 Speaker 1: does it mean to have not just the external pressures 84 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: but the internal pressures that we often identify as guilt 85 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: and shame. I feel guilty because I want to go 86 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: on a ski weekend to maintain my skill set. Who 87 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: could even think about doing that? I have young children 88 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: in the home. I would be leaving them. I feel 89 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: guilty for leaving them. I feel internally shamed by others 90 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: if I'm not a perfect parents. I wonder if you 91 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: could help us understand these feelings of guilt and shame. 92 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: What are they? Where do they come from? You know, 93 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: when we think about guilt and shame, guilt is that 94 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: feeling of regret over a wrongdoing that someone has done, 95 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: typically yourself. Shame is a little different. It's when we 96 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: view ourselves as being less than We feel less worthy, 97 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: less valuable, and it's usually in response to something external, 98 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: like a social construct. So for me, guilt has been 99 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: really interesting the thing to think about. It had a 100 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: good place in my life for a while. But I 101 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: think when I was a parental child, a d D 102 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: and growing up but the sabled younger brother and a 103 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: mother who worked nights, I think guilt help propel me along. 104 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: I think feeling guilty about disappointing my teacher, or feeling 105 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: guilty because I didn't complete the homework assignment the best 106 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: that I could. It wasn't always a bad thing. Negative 107 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: experiences or emotions or feelings can help us be the 108 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: catalysts of change, and they can be a positive thing 109 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: if it helps you make change and take strides like 110 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: you did in your life. When we think about mental health, 111 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: these emotions guilt many others. When they start bleeding into 112 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: your sense of identity and you're unable to place a 113 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: clear border around it, that's when trouble can set in. 114 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: So it's not necessarily that having a negative emotion is bad. 115 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: It can propel us to a better place, just like 116 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: having stress isn't bad. When scientific terms, it's called when 117 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: something is adaptive that chal and just when something that 118 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: is negative goes from being adaptive to maladaptive that it 119 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: no longer serves a positive function. It's hard for you 120 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: to get up in the morning, hard for you to 121 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: do your work, to engage with people and have meaningful relationships. 122 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: That's that red flag, and hopefully our listeners and even 123 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: you and I and our friends and colleagues before we 124 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: get to that place of danger. There are many tells 125 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: and many things we can do before it becomes maladaptive. 126 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: We're so excited to talk about all of this with 127 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: today's get Dr Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler. We're meeting her after 128 00:08:38,640 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: the break. Dr Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler is here with us. 129 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: She's the best selling author of Mommy Burnout, the podcast 130 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: host of Dr Cheryl's pod Couch I Love That Podcast, 131 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: a ted X speaker, and runs a private practice group 132 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: in Denver, Colorado. She's an expert on topics related to parenting, 133 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: women's mental health, and stress. Thank you so much for 134 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: having me. I'm so thrilled to be talking to both 135 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: of you. You are a canary in the coal mine, 136 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: Cheryl calling these issues out I think when people were 137 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: not ready or willing to listen to them. And I 138 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: really appreciate you being here because we're talking today about 139 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: a subject that you know very well, you speak about often, 140 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: and your tips and practical tricks have helped me immensely. 141 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: And that topic is guilt and shame and it's relation 142 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: to burnout, its relation to keeping women small, not living 143 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: in their full power, whether it's outside the home and 144 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: their unicorn space. And so I want to know if 145 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: we can just start with how you got into your work, 146 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: How did you know that burned out mothers should be 147 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: the source of an entire book. I'm happy to share 148 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: how this came about because it is a little bit 149 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: of a story, and it was really organic and took 150 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: a couple of years. I have a private practice in 151 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: Denver called the Child and Family Therapy Center, So oftentimes 152 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: moms would be bringing their kids in and for whatever 153 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: different reasons, my kids being bullied, they have anxiety, I 154 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: think my kids cutting, they have depression. So they come 155 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: in with the presenting problem being something going on with 156 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: their child, and then usually by the end of the 157 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: intake session they would joke and say, maybe it's me 158 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: that needs to be coming into therapy. Then I really 159 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: had become evolved to the point where oftentimes about half 160 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: the week I would spend with just the parents and 161 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: then maybe half the week with kids. And when we 162 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: were meeting, I just started noticing certain things. They were saying, 163 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: I'm exhausted all the time. Is this all there is? 164 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: I waited all my life for this to get married 165 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: to have the house, to have the kid. Why am 166 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: I not happy? And I noticed the same kinds of 167 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: thoughts and questions. And I also noticed that whether they 168 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: were a stay at home mom or a working mom, 169 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: there was no difference. They were all saying the same thing. 170 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: And I was really struck by that. And then I 171 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: had my second child. I had this feeling, and it 172 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: was pretty quick a couple of weeks after I had him, 173 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: like I was drowning underwater, and then I would come 174 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: back up and take a deep breath and just to 175 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: drown again. And then I thought, Oh, my gosh, I 176 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: think this is what those moms have been talking about 177 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: for these past years. This is what it actually feels like. 178 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: I truly like a breathing issue, like a like I'm 179 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: trying to just catch my breath, like I'm trying to 180 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: snee go off and spend time in the bathroom the 181 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: only time I wasn't being bothered or asked a question 182 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: or being tugged at. And so it was at that 183 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: moment that I thought to myself, especially when I got 184 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: back to work, which by the way, I was like 185 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: counting the weeks until I could get back to work 186 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: because I was like, oh, working is so much easier 187 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 1: than this. And then when I got back there, I 188 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: realized a simple thought. If my three o'clock only knew 189 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: how my four o'clock felt, and that the five felt 190 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: like the four, I just think the world would be 191 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: a better place. And so when I was originally writing 192 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: Mommy Burnout, the working title of it was modern Day Motherhood. 193 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: And when my agent read it, she said, you're gonna 194 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: need to name this condition, Like you can't just say 195 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: this is modern day motherhood, and like, but it is, 196 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: and she's like, work on that, like what what is 197 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: the condition that what's going on? And so really I 198 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: started doing research on chronic stress and um stress in general, 199 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: and then once I got back to looking at burnout 200 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: from a true clinical definition, I thought, wow, this is it. 201 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: I think that you can experience burnout in the different 202 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: occupations that you hold, in the different roles that you have. 203 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: And I thought the definition, which is the physical and 204 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 1: emotional exhaustion that results from feeling like you are unaccomplished 205 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: or not good at your job, I thought just matched 206 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: motherhood really well. And so that's how it kind of 207 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: all came together. You know what's amazing Cheryl is that, 208 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: in spite of you having all of the research and 209 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: the education is a psychologist, you went through that experience, 210 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: you felt all of the same things. It is remarkable 211 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: and even to this day, because it's been a lot 212 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: of years now that I've been really focused on women's 213 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: health issues, chronic stress and burnout. And even though I 214 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: am in that world, the only thing that means that 215 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,359 Speaker 1: I like to tell people this is I still experienced 216 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: stress and then chronic stress. But I just know the 217 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: signs and I'm quicker now too correct right, I'm quicker 218 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: to say whoa, we have to put the brakes on 219 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: right now? Or no? Or I know how to say 220 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: no now. I did not know how to say no 221 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: a few years ago. That's what I want for people. 222 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: I just want them to know the signs, the symptoms, 223 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: and the what to do because stress is a normal 224 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: part of everyday life. So we have so many questions 225 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: for you, and I'm going to start off and I'm 226 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: going to quote you. You have said before, just because 227 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: you've become a mother doesn't mean you have to surrender 228 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: your entire life and all of your dreams. We have 229 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: this false conception that to be a good mom means 230 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: you must sacrifice who you are as a person. That 231 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: simply isn't true, and it's a huge mistake. When I 232 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: read that, I had that aha moment the same way 233 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: you did with all of your patients. Can you tell 234 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: us a little bit about why this thinking is so 235 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: common for what you describe as modern motherhood. So when 236 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: I was doing research and I look back, it was 237 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: so interesting. We probably have all read The Feminine Mystique 238 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: by Betty for Dan. I remember when I read it. 239 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: I read it in a women's studies class in college. 240 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: It didn't strike me personally, so I probably read it, 241 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: got my grade and moved on. But when I was 242 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: studying the history of motherhood reading books that were written 243 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: more like in the seventies and the sixties. If you 244 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: just open up that book, chapter one is called the 245 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: Problem that has No Name, And I was like, huh, 246 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: And if you read it, it's all about the problem 247 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: that has no name is the pressure and the stress 248 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: that women who become mother's feel. That there's a condition 249 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: in which you get married and you have children, and 250 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: you think that your role is going to become very clear, 251 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden you lose your identity 252 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: in your children, and by doing so, the vast majority 253 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: of women are highly, highly distressed. They lose interest, they 254 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: feel that they're not interesting. But essentially they were saying, 255 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: at three o'clock in the afternoon, when I know those 256 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: kids are going to come home, I take what we 257 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: call Mommy's little helper, which we now know our anti 258 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: anxiety medication. Right, So Mommy's Little Helper was like xan X, 259 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: and they were doing that in the nineteen sixties. So 260 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: the modern day version of that is wine America takes 261 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: anti anxiety meds by the millions, So we are still 262 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: doing that in addition to then socially acceptable drinking that 263 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: we all couch as like we need it right on 264 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: wine time, Mommy's juice, mommy juice, all these things, all 265 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: these code words that we have for I'm so stressed 266 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: that I need to alter my chemistry and my reality 267 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: to just get through the afternoon. So when we not 268 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: only get the message that well, that's just part of 269 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: being a woman, and you know, if you have a 270 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: problem with it, we'll like just something. Just take a pill, 271 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: or take a little CBD, or you have a little 272 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: marijuana or whatever. It's going to be just mellow out 273 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: if we keep perpetuating that, and we keep ascribing to 274 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: that this is the legacy that we're leaving our children, 275 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: which is motherhood is in some ways so stressful and 276 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: you lose your identity that you have to numb your 277 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: way through it. And I really want to change that narrative. 278 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: It doesn't need to be that way. But I think 279 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: people don't know the way out of that because that's 280 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: not something that's really shown to us. We don't know 281 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: the way. We have so many forms to self medicate, 282 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: and it's just because we're just trying to power through 283 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: and come out, like you said, rather than feel all 284 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: of those feelings. Absolutely, you just reminded me when you 285 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: said that. But I didn't mention social media, right, that's 286 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: a very modern way that people come out binging on Netflix. 287 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: It's just anything that in moderation can be perfectly healthy 288 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: or fine, but anything that takes us consciously, purposely away 289 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: and out of our reality should be a yellow to 290 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: a red flag to somebody that, wait, maybe you actually 291 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: do need to practice presence and see what's going on here. 292 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: To me, the new sort of epidemic is losing ourselves 293 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: in our feeds and our screens. There's a metaphorical storm 294 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: going on. But can we learn to dance in the 295 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: rain as opposed to drown in it? And you have 296 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: some great practical advice for sort of first steps for 297 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: recognition about I want to live more at the intersection 298 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: of meaning and happiness because we know that meaning without 299 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: happiness is a lot of what we're talking about here. 300 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: Being defined by our roles does bring meaning. I think 301 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: we'd all hear as parents say that we have meaning. 302 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: But when three o'clock comes around, if I'm holding the 303 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: afternoon card or the weekends, oh my god it you know, 304 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: my heart pounds on Friday night. So if we want 305 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: to make our leisure time more nutritious, and we want 306 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: to understand that life is dancing in the rain, we're 307 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: not telling you it's going to be you know, cupcakes 308 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: and rainbows. But where would you suggest people start. It's 309 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,959 Speaker 1: really hard, right because on the one hand, you say, oh, well, 310 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to see parents numbing out, 311 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: And on the other hand, self care. You must do 312 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: self care. You must put on your oxygen mask. Right, 313 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: So if you look at those things, I can see 314 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: how somebody might say, well, which is it, because maybe 315 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: my self care is binging on Netflix or scrolling on 316 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: Instagram and looking at whatever beautiful homes or whatever it 317 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: is that you're looking at. So I like when people 318 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: ask those questions and I'm like, okay, good, let's have 319 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: a conversation about this. Self care is truly something that 320 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: is subjective. I don't get to tell you, and you 321 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: don't get to tell me what my self care is 322 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: by the day or maybe even by the hour. We 323 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: know when somebody has a young baby, self care is 324 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: taken a shower. We know that, right. We know that 325 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: when you are maybe nursing, self care is putting clean braun. 326 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: But then you get older and I'm not nursing anymore, 327 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: So self care isn't putting a clean braun for me anymore. 328 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: Every age and stage as my role as a mother 329 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: has something different. Going away or spending any time with 330 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: any one of my girlfriends is probably my greatest self 331 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: care area, and I do that. People will say to me, well, 332 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: how do you do that? Don't you feel bad? I'm 333 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: absolutely not, because when I get my time to be social, 334 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: to go out to just relax and not if someone 335 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: you know, ask me questions, tugging on me when I 336 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: come home. I am definitely a better mother, I am 337 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: a better therapist, I'm a better wife, I'm a better everything. 338 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: Because I'm acutely aware, like I'm running on empty. That's 339 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: what burnout is. You're running on empty. If I allow 340 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: myself to continue to run on fumes, guess what that 341 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: one dinner, happy hour or weekend with my friends will 342 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: not fill me up. So sometimes people want to know 343 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: what's the difference, Like, how do you know when you're 344 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: stressed or when you're burned out? When you're stressed, going 345 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: and doing some of the self care stuff will fill 346 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: you back up. When you're burned out, that doesn't cut it. 347 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: And now all of a sudden, you realize, oh, I 348 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: have a major life adjustment to do. Now, it's not 349 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: a minor one. Oh can I get away for a night, 350 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: it's beyond that, or even within your relationship, maybe one 351 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: day at night actually is not going to cut it. Right. 352 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,239 Speaker 1: So I am acutely aware that this needs to be 353 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: something that I do often. It needs to be something 354 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: that is very attuned to where I'm at right. Sometimes 355 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: I need quiet time, but then the next week I 356 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: want to be out with maybe one friend or maybe 357 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: a group of friends, and so I do that, and 358 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 1: I make that commitment no matter what. That's self care 359 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: in the intersection of guilt and shame because I will 360 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: not even think twice about doing any of these things 361 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: because I know that everybody benefits from it. So when 362 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: I make decisions, and Eve talks about this as well, 363 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: I make values driven decisions. Right, my value is mental health, 364 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: of course. Right. So if I were to go out, 365 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: and let's say I were to drink too much, and 366 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: then the whole next day I have a hangover, I 367 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: can't even hardly function with my family, I feel like crap, 368 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: I have a headache laying on a couch, that actually, 369 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: for me is not a values based decision. That wasn't 370 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: a great decision because it didn't feel me up in 371 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: order to be able to give and receive with my 372 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 1: family the next day. But if I go out, I 373 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: have a good time, I dance the next day, A 374 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: values driven decision for me says, now I'm ready to 375 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: be really present with you. I got I got my 376 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: time alone or with friends or whatever, and now I'm 377 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: here for you kids, versus feeling resentful or feeling a 378 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: crap or feeling tired. And so that's how I make 379 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: decisions and it helps me a lot with guilt and shame. 380 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: I'll tell you one more story. Last Monday, I did 381 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: a talk away and it was in driving distance, but 382 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: it was at a gorgeous spa at a ranch. And 383 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: so they're like, oh, yeah, well, you could just drive 384 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: up in the morning. It's like an hour and a 385 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: half from Denver. You could be back in the afternoon. 386 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: I was like, maybe you want me to come for 387 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: my night. I gotta come the day before I got 388 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: my night and it was so beautiful, right, And I 389 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: will tell you at a tinge of like, oh, was 390 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: this a little too indulgent because I didn't have to 391 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: be away for a night. And I was like, no, no, no, no, right, 392 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: So I'll have the feelings like anybody else. But I'm 393 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: quick and I'm like, why did you make this decision? 394 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,959 Speaker 1: I go back to my values. Why did you make 395 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: this decision? Because it's gonna be good for my health. 396 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: I got to do yoga, I took a beautiful walk, 397 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: I soaked in the sun that was in the mountains, 398 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: and I even had quiet time to myself to read 399 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: a physical book. If I have a tinge of guilt, 400 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: I go back to is this in line with my values? 401 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: Am I in integrity? This happened to me. Also on 402 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: Monday night, my friend invited me to see a screening 403 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: of West Side Story. So at first I was like 404 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: that again, say I could watch it later, I can 405 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: see it in the theaters. I don't have to go now. 406 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: I had to record my audiobook on Sunday, so I 407 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: hadn't seen Anna in a while. So blah blah blah. 408 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: Listening to myself, you know, I feel guilty. I feel guilty. 409 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: And then finally I made the decision not to put 410 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: Anna to bed. I'm making the choice not to put 411 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: Anna to bed because A I really want to see 412 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: West Side Story. I love musicals, especially when they're representing 413 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: the people's lived experience in a more authentic way. And 414 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: number two, my good friend Christie is the producer of 415 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: this movie, and I really want to support her. And 416 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: it was the best. It was the best that I'm 417 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: still thinking about the movie. I looked up Jerome Robbin's 418 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: choreography to do a couple of Unicorn space eight counts, 419 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: and I'm still filled up by that two hours and 420 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: I couldn't put Anna to bed and feel that. So 421 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: I made that choice because and I think that reframe 422 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: that you have us do instead of the self talk. 423 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: I feel guilty because to saying I made the decision, 424 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: because I made that choice, because it's so powerful, because 425 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: then you can communicate it to your children without ambivalence. Absolutely, 426 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna really try to highlight this seat of saying 427 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: to my kids, I have to go do this talk, right, 428 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: and everything about our body language changes and we act 429 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: so like we're being tortured, like I'm sorry, you know, guys, 430 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: I'm not going to be home tomorrow because I have 431 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: to do this talk. It makes it seem like, oh, well, 432 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: mom must be going to go do something so dreadful, right, 433 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: the look on her face, her tone, her body language, 434 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: or the apologetic like sorry, guys, I am not going 435 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: to be home tomorrow night. Right. We're not doing them 436 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: any favors by putting on that voice and acting small 437 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: and acting all guilty. So I don't do that. I say, 438 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: guess what, you guys, you know how much I love 439 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: devil thumb Ranch. I get to go there, do a 440 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: talk and go to the spot. It's not amazing, and 441 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: they're just like so used to it that they're just oh, 442 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: good mom. Yeah. And so I'm like, so, yeah, I'm 443 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: not going to be here tomorrow. I'm missing a basketball game. 444 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: I'm so bummed. Daddy will take videos and I'll look 445 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: at them, call me on the right home. Because of course, 446 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: did I inventory what was I missing? I was missing 447 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: my son's basketball game, and I don't like to miss 448 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: their games. It was a choice, though I was not forced. 449 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: And so in my decision making, I like to also 450 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: communicate not just first to myself why yes this is 451 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: a choice of making, but second to my kids. I 452 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: want to show them that I love my job. I 453 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: want to show them that I value friendships. I want 454 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: to show them that I value my health, not just 455 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: in words, but in action. And so that's really important 456 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: to me. Now I'm going to play the devil's advocate. 457 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: Some people say, well, what if you don't love your 458 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: job and you really do feel like you have to 459 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: do it, this isn't something that you want to do. 460 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: There's still a values based decision there. Guys. I have 461 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: to go on a work trip because mommy has to 462 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: bring home money. So we can eat so that we 463 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: can have Christmas, or we can go on vacation, or 464 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: we could just pay the bills. And so I'm sorry 465 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: that I'm gonna, you know, miss the basketball game, but 466 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: I love you so much and i care about taking 467 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: care of you so much that I'm going to go 468 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: do this and when I come back, I can't wait 469 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: to see you. Right. So it might not be as 470 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: Rosie is enthusiastic as my first version, but it's still 471 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: being honest and it still leaves I hope as you 472 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: hear me say that it leaves you with a different 473 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: feeling when you know why your parent is making the 474 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: decision that they are. As you're speaking the two scenarios, 475 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: I just think essentially what you're saying is that you 476 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: can be a mother and still lead an authentic life. 477 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: And when your children see that messaging from you saying 478 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: that you're excited to go on this trip and you'll 479 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: see them when you get back, recognizing and acknowledging the 480 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: things that you're going to be missing, I think that 481 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: also gives them an example of how to be. I 482 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: think of this quote as you're speaking, Cheryl, what's important 483 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: is to create a life that you don't need to 484 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: escape from. We always think about all of these vacations, right, 485 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: like I need to get away, I need to take 486 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: a vacation. But what about changing that notion on his 487 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: head and actually building a life with a partner, with children, 488 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 1: with all of those responsibilities and obligations, and rather than 489 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: think of them as something heavy, think of it as 490 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: part of a creative process to build a life that 491 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: is so wonderful, enriching and fulfilling with all of those 492 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: time outs. Like you've said that you don't have to 493 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 1: escape from. I love that quote so much. I did 494 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: track it down and it was a writer named Brianna West, 495 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: So shout out to you, Brianna for that beautiful quote 496 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: that true self care is building a life you don't 497 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: want to escape from. I think what the three of 498 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: us are talking about is, by no means is probably 499 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: any of our lives rosie, perfect, beautiful, lovely every day. 500 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: It is truly the mindset. And I don't want for 501 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: me and for the patients that I work with. I 502 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: don't want those children to feel like they are a burden, 503 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: or that they have taken the joy and the spirit 504 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: out of their parents. Right that, Oh, I used to 505 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: be because I do hear that a lot too. People 506 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: will say to me, you know that I used to 507 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: be a CFO. You know that I used to be 508 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: a teacher. These moms will tell me this, and I 509 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: take it and I hold it for them because I 510 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: know what they're trying to say. What they're trying to 511 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: say is I used to have another identity. If you 512 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: find you're going through multiple seasons of this, at some point, 513 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: you have to know I have to pause. I have 514 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: to do something different. I can still love my children 515 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: and fill in the blank, and maybe if everybody did 516 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: that for themselves, right, I can still love my children 517 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: and fill in the blank. Forget the butt. We all 518 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: know butts are and eraser words we don't want to use. 519 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: But I love them. But and people say that I 520 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: love my kids, but they drive me crazy. I love 521 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: my kids, but I just want to be alone sometimes. 522 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: So I love my kids, and I deserve of a 523 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: night to myself. I love my kids, and whatever you're 524 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: filling the blank is, and I do this. I've been 525 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: doing this for many years with people. I promise if 526 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: people practice it, and not just once, but you practice it, 527 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: you're consistent with it. It will manifest, it will happen, 528 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: and your family will genuinely be healthier and happier because 529 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: of it. I love this exercise that you're walking us 530 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: through instead of the butt put in the end and 531 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: fill in the blank. Is that what you would recommend 532 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: as that first step for the woman who is feeling 533 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: all of those feelings in that cycle of shame and 534 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: guilt and wants to get out but doesn't know how. Absolutely. 535 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,239 Speaker 1: One of the first things that that has come at 536 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: least to my mind right now, is even understanding the 537 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: difference between shame and guilt. If you have shame, that 538 00:30:54,080 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: is usually a private secret, deep seated feeling that is 539 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: internal that is so scary to release that you don't 540 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: even tell anybody. It's something that is such a burden 541 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: because it's generally kept a secret. That's shame. Guilt is 542 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: usually quite specific. I feel bad about Oh, I feel 543 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: bad I didn't put the kids to bed. I feel 544 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: bad I didn't say I love you when they walked 545 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: out the door. I feel bad I forgot to kid 546 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: my sign my kid up for karate. It's usually you 547 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: feel bad about and then fill that blanket, and and 548 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: that does plague women because they wind up feeling like, gosh, 549 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: well I have like fifteen of those a day. How 550 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: many times can I feel bad about something? And so 551 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: that is a very real experience and gets in the 552 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: way a lot of times from women really growing. But 553 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: I do want to distinguish it from shame, which puts 554 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: you almost in shackles because it's a very lonely, dark experience. 555 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: So I really want people to get in touch with 556 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: that difference between guilt and shame and to know that 557 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: shame needs to be shared in order to really heal 558 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: past it. It's like trauma and guilt is something that 559 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: I think can be really helped by purpose driven talk. 560 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: What is the little voice in your head? What is 561 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: it saying to you? How can I rewrite that narrative? 562 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: What are your values? Do you have a value statement? 563 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: Do you have a family value statement? Keep that as 564 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: your anchor point and ground it. So I just wanted 565 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: to speak to that. Wow, it's like a mic drop. 566 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: You're a living, walking ball of wisdom. I hope your 567 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: kids I can tell them how proud I am of 568 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: you to them keep shining because there's so much what 569 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: you said said today that we can use to apply 570 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: to make our lives better. Thank you, Thank you guys 571 00:32:50,200 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: so much for having me on Hi. It's me Eve. 572 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: Are you a therapist, counselor coach or nutritionists that has 573 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: thought about introducing the fair Play system directly to your clients, Well, 574 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: now you can come and roll in the fair Play Method, 575 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: a new online program that provides you with hands on training, 576 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: a ton of valuable resources, and a community of certified 577 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,719 Speaker 1: professionals who are all part of a greater cultural movement 578 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: for systemic change. Learn more about how you can help 579 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: your clients shift the domestic workload in their own homes 580 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: towards more equity, more fairness, and greater connectivity. Visit fair 581 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: Play method dot com. So, as you may know, now, 582 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: every episode of this podcast ends with an action item 583 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: for you are listeners that we call a time out. 584 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: This is really a time for you to focus on 585 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: yourself and reflect on what you're hearing today, and we're 586 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: starting to come versation first with ourselves and then ultimately 587 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: with those around us. I loved all of Cheryl's insights Leave, 588 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 1: but probably the most profound one for me is just 589 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: this idea that she would see patient upon patient upon 590 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: patient in a day they'd all be struggling with the 591 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: same thing, these intense negative emotions. They would be feeling 592 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: so isolated, and yet no one was talking to each other. 593 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: And so it's this wild, surreal experience of feeling isolated. 594 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: But it's a collective experience. And Cheryl was the only one, 595 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: through her vantage point of being a clinician, who was 596 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: able to see that pattern. And I'm so glad she's 597 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: speaking about that and really making this a common theme 598 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: and a common thread for all of us, because we're 599 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: all suffering in different ways, and yet we don't talk 600 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: to each other because of our guilt and our shame, 601 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: which are real isolating forces. Oh my god, I think 602 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be doing this podcast with you. We need 603 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 1: something else to do. Write like a hole in our head, 604 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: as my grandmother would say. But we were doing this 605 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: for that reason. We want you, we're here listening with 606 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: us to understand that private lives are public issues. That 607 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: the more we stay isolated and in shame as opposed 608 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: to collectively understanding that this is normal, the smaller we are, 609 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 1: and when when we can become and then we don't 610 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,919 Speaker 1: ski anymore. We we leave our skis at the airport metaphorically. 611 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:38,760 Speaker 1: So today we are going to build on Dr Cheryl's 612 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: amazing self talk reframe about guilt and shame where we're 613 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: going to bring it to the surface. We're gonna not 614 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: let shame isolate and high us in darkness. So what 615 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: we would like all of you to do, when you 616 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: can safely, is to think of one time in your 617 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: life recently where you felt guilty about something or some 618 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: that's coming up that you feel guilty about doing. So 619 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, a deity in in the past, I would say, 620 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: I know, after a really long day today, tonight, I'm 621 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: going out to dinner with my friends Dara and Susanne. 622 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 1: And in the past I probably would have said, wow, 623 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: I really feel guilty for heading out to dinner right 624 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 1: after a really long work day because Seth took the 625 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: kids to school this morning, so I will have not 626 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: seen my kids all day today. What Dr Cheryl is 627 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: asking us to do is to take I feel guilty 628 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: because I feel guilty because I'm not putting my kids 629 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: to bed tonight, and to write down instead I made 630 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: the choice, because I made the decision because so this 631 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: is how it would work. I feel guilty because I'm 632 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: not putting my kids to bed instead, I will write 633 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: down I am making the decision not to put my 634 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: kids to bed because I really believe in friendships, and 635 00:36:58,200 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: I know that to believe in friendships you have to 636 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: spend time on them and cultivate them. And so that 637 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: is why I'm going to make the decision to go 638 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: out to dinner tonight with Dara and Susanne. Do you 639 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: have one as a practice that we could do for 640 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: our listeners. So yesterday I had a thirty minute window 641 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: and I could have spent those thirty minutes downstairs with 642 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: my family or exercising. And I really needed to exercise, 643 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: like you, I'd had a really long day and I 644 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: just needed to decompress. I felt a lot of guilt 645 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: about making that choice, but I sent a quick text 646 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: to my husband and I said, hey, I need thirty minutes. 647 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: It felt difficult to send it. Immediately after sending that text, 648 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: I felt a great sense of relief and felt a 649 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: sense of power, and I exercised. And then when I 650 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: showed up thirty minutes later for my family, I was present, 651 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: I was happy, and I was a better mom and 652 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 1: a wife. Dr Cheryl talks a lot about this but 653 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: we can only fill other people's cup when our cup 654 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 1: is full, and really it's one of the greatest gifts 655 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: we could give to ourselves as moms, as wives, and 656 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: as human beings. So that's what we're working on today 657 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,959 Speaker 1: in our Time Out, but stay tuned for next week, 658 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: where we moved from how we talk to ourselves our 659 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: self talk into how we communicate what we need to others. 660 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Thank you for listening to Time Out, 661 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine. I'm 662 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 1: Ev Rodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller fair 663 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: Play and Find Your Unicorn Space. Follow me on social 664 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,720 Speaker 1: media at Eve Rodsky and learn more about our work 665 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: at fair Play Life. And I'm Dr Ad Narukar, Harvard 666 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: physician with a specialty and stress resilience burnout in mental health. 667 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: Follow me on social media at dr add ne rucar 668 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: and find out more about my work at dr add 669 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: dot com. That's d R A d I t I 670 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 1: dot com. Our Hello Sunshine team is Amanda farrand Aaron 671 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: Stover and Jennifer Yonker. Our I Heart Media team is 672 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: Ali Perry, Jennifer Bassett, and Jessica Cranchich. We hope you 673 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: all love taking a much needed time out with us today. 674 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: Listen and subscribe to Time Out on the I Heart 675 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.