1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: Time to go into the Old Vault. This time we're 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: going in for an interview. I want to say that 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: this was a really interesting interview. I really liked it. 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: This is the interview we had with the science writer 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: Carl Zimmer, originally published in June of about his book 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: on heredity called She Has Her Mother's Laugh The Powers, 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: Perversions and Potential of Heredity. And I thought this was 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: a really good talk. Yeah, this was a lot of fun. 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: You know, I just got him chatting about, you know, 12 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: his experiences writing the book, uh, you know, some of 13 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: the real you know, high points regarding like what heredity is, 14 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: how it works, and and also I remember we got 15 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: him talking a little bit about like okay, what if 16 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: what if you were to write your name and someone's genes, 17 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: Like how long would that signature last? Uh So, yeah, 18 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: it's a fun conversation and uh, you know it was 19 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: and it was on honor to get to talk to 20 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: Carl Zimmer, who's, you know, such a big name in 21 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: science communication. He's been one of my favorite science writers 22 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: for years and it was really cool. All right, let's 23 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: jump right in. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind 24 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: from how Stuff Works dot com. Hey you, welcome to 25 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb 26 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick. And boy, do we have a 27 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: treat for you today. That's right, we're we're chatting with 28 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 1: Carl Zimmer about his new book, She Has Her Mother's Laugh, 29 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: The Powers, Perversions and Potential of Heredity. This is a 30 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: fantastic book. I was trying to finish it before we 31 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: talked to him today, and I was up till two 32 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: am last night and getting to the very last page. 33 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: But it was worth it. It is a great book. 34 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: I really highly recommended. It's a brick that's just full 35 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: of weird, interesting delights and insights about how our views 36 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: of heredity have changed over the years, all of the 37 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: good and all of the evil to that knowledge has 38 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: been used for and uh and also where it's going 39 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: in the future. Yeah, yeah, this it's a fascinating book. 40 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: I also I got to see him in conversation with 41 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: the Maria Knakova at World Science Festival this year, in 42 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: which he talked about the themes in the book as well, 43 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: So it was a real it's a real delight to 44 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: have him here on the show. And if you want 45 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: to check out She Has Her Mother's Laugh. It is 46 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: available in hardback, digital and as an audio book. So, uh, 47 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: we hope you enjoy our interview with him, but certainly 48 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: go check out his book as well for just an 49 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: in depth, riveting journey through heredity. Now, wait a minute, 50 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: we should say who he is. I don't think we've 51 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: done that if you're if you're not familiar with Carl 52 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: Zimmer and Carl Carl Zimmer is a prolific, excellent science writer. 53 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: He writes for the New York Times. I think I've 54 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: also seen these articles in the Atlantic and National Geographic 55 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,839 Speaker 1: all over the place. Uh. He's written a lot about 56 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: parasites and uh, some of the most interesting stuff in 57 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: biology is is Karl's territory. And uh, and I really 58 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: had a good time talking to him today. Yes, some 59 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: of his past books include Parasite rex Evolution, The Triumph 60 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: of an Idea, and Microcosm. So, without further ado, here's 61 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: our conversation with Carl Zimmer. So, Carl, what led you 62 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: to write a book about heredity. I guess in a way, 63 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about heredity for forever. Really. I mean, 64 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: I when I was a kid, you know, I would 65 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: uh think back on my ancestors that my parents told 66 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: me about, and you know, I wonder like, oh wow, 67 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: if if you know, Roger Goodspeed had not sailed from 68 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: England to Massachusetts in the sixteen thirties, would I ever exist? 69 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: You know, those sorts of things. And then when I 70 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: became a father, I've got two teenage girls now, and 71 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: you know that immediately brought to bear just how urgent 72 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: and mysterious heredity can be. Because now they these two 73 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: people walking around who have inherited a lot of my genes, 74 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: and you know what, what is it that I'm giving 75 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: them that that suddenly becomes a very pressing issue. And 76 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: I guess what really then kind of crystallize it all 77 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: for me, was that in the past few years, I've 78 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: been doing a lot of reporting from the New York 79 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: Times and elsewhere about the real revolution happening in biology, 80 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: allowing scientists to sequenced DNA, to rewrite DNA, and to 81 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: also look at other kinds of biology that might help 82 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: uh create this thing that we call heredity. Uh, and 83 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: so it just it all kind of came together, and 84 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: I realized that this would be something that I really 85 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: wanted to spend a couple of years really exploring deeply. 86 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: So you mentioned the idea of the sort of personal 87 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: curiosity about our ancestors, and you talk in the book 88 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: about how we often do family genealogies to sort of 89 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: learn something about ourselves, as if the seeds of who 90 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: we are are somehow present in our really distant ancestors. 91 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: But how many generations back do you have to go 92 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: before those relationships with our ancestors really don't matter all 93 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: that much in terms of genetic closeness. You know, you 94 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: don't have to go back that far. And that just 95 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: has to do with how parents passed down their DNA 96 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: to their kids. You know, we each have two copies 97 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: of each gene for the most part, but you know, 98 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: parents only passed down one copy of a given gene 99 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: to each child. And so if you repeat that process 100 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: generation after generation, there's a sort of a kind of 101 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 1: a stochastic, kind of random process that will basically lead 102 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: to you know, uh, some descendants not having any DNA 103 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: at all from a particular ancestor. Um, there's only so 104 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: much room in your genome and you can't pack in 105 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: all the DNA for all your ancestors basically, and so 106 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: geneticis have done some back of the envelope calculations and 107 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: if you go back let's say ten generations, um, that 108 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: would be like your ancestors in the sixt dreds. Uh, 109 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: maybe only about half of them have a genetic link 110 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: to you. The rest they're still your ancestors. But you 111 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: cannot point to any piece of DNA in your genome 112 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: and say, oh, I got that from from this particular 113 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: person you know. So Um, So I think that actually 114 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: like really shows how we have to, um think think 115 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: bigger when it comes to heredity. It's not just some 116 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: particular bit of DNA that that gives heredity its meaning. Well, 117 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: on the other side of that coin, UM, could you 118 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what the Yale mathematician Joseph 119 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: Chang discovered about human ancestry. It seems sort of like 120 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: the flip side of what you're just talking about. Yeah, 121 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: I mean, so you know, so much about heredity is 122 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: counterintuitive and almost you know, it seems to contradict itself. 123 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: And that's in a way what makes it so fascinating. 124 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: So I just told you about how if you go 125 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: back a certain number of generations, you're gonna encounter ancestors 126 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: from whom you've inherited no DNA at all. Um. But 127 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: there's an interesting feature of human ancestry, which is that, um, 128 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: you know people uh, everybody today, Uh, you know, it 129 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: shares a common ancestor with some people who lived about 130 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: five thousand years ago, roughly speaking in other words, UM, 131 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: if you, if you, it's just a you can and 132 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: you can figure this out as just changed just by 133 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: looking at Genealogy is a mathematical problem. Um, just think 134 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: of think of our genealogy is a kind of a 135 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: branching network. Um. The thing is though that uh you 136 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: know are if you think about your family tree, um, 137 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: and you think while as me, and then you branch 138 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: off to your parents, and then they branch off to 139 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: their parents and so on and so forth. Um. If 140 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: you just keep branching in that simple way, you're gonna 141 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: end up, you know, a few thousand years back with 142 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: more ancestors than there are people who have ever lived. 143 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: You know, we're talking chillions of people. And that's absurd. 144 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: So so that's actually not a realistic model of your ancestry. 145 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: The fact is that your aunt all of you know, 146 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: your parents are cousins. Now either that you know, in 147 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: some cases first cousins get married, but in other cases 148 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: they're very distant cousins. Another what that means is that 149 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: your parents share an ancestor, a common ancestor somewhere in 150 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: the past. It could be hundreds of thousands of years ago, 151 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: but it doesn't matter. They have an ancestor. So what 152 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: that does is it folds the family tree back in 153 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: on itself. And what Joseph Chang realized was that that 154 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: actually does something very interesting to human ancestry. What it 155 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: means is that you do not have to go back 156 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: very far to find somebody who is the common ancestor 157 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: of literally everyone on earth. Uh And it's just in 158 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: the past few thousand years that you could find people 159 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: like that. Um. Now, of course you know those common ancestors, 160 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: you know they for each of us that that that's 161 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: one person or a few people out of thousands upon 162 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: thousands of ancestors. But it's something that ties us all together. 163 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: And the irony is that you know, people are really 164 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: uh uh, really love to connect themselves to someone famous. 165 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: You know, like, oh, did you know that I am 166 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: descended from William the Conqueror? And the fact is that 167 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: probably probably everybody of European descent is and is a 168 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: descendant of William the Conqueror. Probably everybody of European descent 169 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 1: is a descendant of Charlemagne Um. And you know, it's 170 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: possible that everybody on earth is a descendant of you know, 171 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 1: maybe Cleopatra. It's like, that's just the nature of human 172 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: genealogy is that it's we're all descended from kings. That 173 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: doesn't make anybody special. Well as as long as we're 174 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: gazing backwards in time, here, can you tell us how 175 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: ancient thinkers contemplated heredity? The weird thing is that they 176 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: really didn't. And they at least they didn't think about 177 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: heredity in the way that we do. Uh. You know, 178 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: if you go back and you you look at what 179 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: Hippocrates would say or Aristottle would say, Uh, this, this 180 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: whole model of how we inherit something you know, microscopic 181 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: and biological that that determines how we ended up the 182 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: way we are just would not compute for them. And so, 183 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 1: you know, you know, someone like Aristotle would say like, well, 184 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 1: you know, the thing that one generation looks like the 185 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: previous one is just because it's the same chemistry. Um, 186 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, of course you're going to be the uh, 187 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: you're going to be the same because you know, it's 188 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: the same set of processes that produced a person that 189 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: produced you. So what's the big deal? And you know 190 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: the word heredity, You know, it's a very old word, 191 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: but it only referred to basically inheriting stuff. Um, you know, 192 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: and I'm talking not talking about jeanes, I'm talking about houses, uh, 193 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: you know, farmland things like that. You know, So in 194 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire there are lots of rules about you know, 195 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: who got to be an heir, and that's what the 196 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: word meant at that point. And it's really fascinating, Like 197 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: you have to you have to wait a long time 198 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: before you start to even see the first glimmers of 199 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: how we think about heredity today. Um. My favorite example 200 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: is in the fifteen fifteen, around fifteen eighty, uh, Montana 201 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 1: this this famous essays. He writes an essay about his 202 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: father because Mathenniel now is starting to get older and 203 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: he's developing kidney stones, and it occurs to him that 204 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: his father had kidney stones and around the same age, 205 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: and he basically writes success saying, well, what is up 206 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: with that? Now? Did I get these kid stones from 207 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: my father? And like, if so, how because you know, 208 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: when I was born, my father was young and he 209 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: didn't have kidney stones, So what exactly went from him 210 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: to me? Um? And you want to just you know, 211 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: shout at the page like it's it's jeans, it's jeans. 212 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: But you know he can't hear you, you know, like 213 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: he his question went fundamentally unanswered for centuries. Um And 214 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: so yeah, so so uh, it's really need to look 215 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: back and and see how. You know, the way we 216 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: think is not how everyone always thought. You know, the 217 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: way we think about heredity is is a product of 218 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: really the modern age. So did the select the breeding 219 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: of animals and plants inform classical and medieval thinkers at 220 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: all about the possible nature of heredity, because it seems 221 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's kind of seems like people such 222 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: as Aristotle or Albertus Magnus would have would have looked 223 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: at how we bred flowers, crops and farm animals more 224 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: were at least in addition to the influence of geography 225 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: or experience, you would think so, I would I would 226 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: have thought so. But I think that's because we are 227 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: in the century and we look back and say, well, 228 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: everyone must have thought the way we did. But there 229 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: are actually, you know, whole books written, uh you know 230 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 1: by Roman writers about farming for example, UM, and you 231 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: can search them as I mean, I have sat down 232 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: and look through these books for anything resembling what you're 233 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: talking about, and it's just not there. They do not 234 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: talk about, oh, well, there's some you know quality in 235 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: this particular variety of olives that you know, if you 236 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: if you, if you breed it, it will pass it 237 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: down to two future generations of olive trees. That this 238 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: isn't there. Instead, they'll say like, well, make sure that 239 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: you know you're you're growing it on good soil, make 240 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: sure your your farm gets a good supply rain. It's 241 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: all about the environment. And it isn't really until I 242 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: would argue, it's not really until the seventeen hundreds that uh, 243 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: you start to see these farmers, these livestock breeders really 244 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: take interest in this um. And part of it is 245 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: that these European countries are all um looking for ways 246 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: to use science to uh make their countries wealthier. And 247 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: you know they're thinking, well, if we can we can, 248 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: if we can produce new varieties of animals implants, um, 249 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: then we we will enrich ourselves. Uh. And there's this 250 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: one breeder named Robert Bakewell who produces an entirely new 251 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: eat of sheep just by starting to think about heredity, 252 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: to think about which individuals those sheep is he gonna 253 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: mate together? Is he gonna just only mate within his flock? 254 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: Is he gonna go pick out other ones from other 255 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: flocks to mate? Um? And lo and behold he produces 256 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: this this very successful new breed. And you know, people 257 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: like Charles Darwin look at that and say, what has happened? 258 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: How did they do that? Um? And in Germany and 259 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: in Central Europe there's a big push to do the 260 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: same thing with sheep, to do that with crops as well, 261 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: and uh and to try to understand what are these rules. 262 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: And one of those people who's trying to understand those 263 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: rules is none other than Gregor mendel Um. So his 264 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: his breeding experiments. You know, the foundation of genetics comes 265 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: out of this new push to try to use heredity 266 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: to enrich nations. All Right, we're gonna take a quick 267 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 1: break and then we're gonna jump right back in to 268 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: the interview and we're back. So at what point does 269 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: the modern idea of heredity really emerge. Well, I'd say 270 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: in the late eighteen hundreds, UM, people start to talk 271 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: about heredity as a scientific question. And Charles Darwin is 272 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: really important in all of this because, you know, he 273 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: comes up with this theory of evolution and it depends 274 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: on heredity. In other words, Um, you know, the only 275 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: way for natural selection to work is so if parents 276 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: can pass down traits to their offspring to give them 277 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: some advantage and surviving and reproducing. And so it's very 278 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: obvious to Darwin that, you know that that heredity is 279 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: this huge glaring question in the middle of his theory, 280 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: and he and he works really hard to try to 281 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: find out for himself how heredity works. And he's very 282 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: aware of a lot of the research that's going on 283 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: at the time looking to the discovery of cells and 284 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: the discovery that there are a little things inside of cells, 285 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: but no one's quite sure what they are, UM. And 286 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: so he developed a theory that there are particles in 287 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: the cells throughout our body that they somehow stream into 288 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: the eggs and sperm and uh then become something like 289 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: we the way we think of genes um. That doesn't 290 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: pan out. You know, his cousin Francis Galton, tries to 291 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: test it by injecting blood from uh, you know, black 292 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: rabbits into white rabbits, you know, different colored rabbits, and 293 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: seeing if that changes the color of their offspring. Doesn't happen. 294 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: Uh and uh So it's not really until after Darwin 295 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: is dead that scientists start to really understand chromosomes and 296 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: then rediscover mental and it all clicks together, and the 297 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: science that they that they call genetics is born in 298 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: nineteen uh and and you know, the it's really you 299 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: can see how exciting it is for the scientists at 300 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: the time. William Bateson, who coined the term genetics, he 301 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 1: writes at the time that you know, the science of 302 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: heredity has been revolutionized. You know that finally they feel 303 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: like they can they can understand heredity um in its 304 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: fundamental basis. So so how do we go from this 305 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: point of of of just excitement and discovery and just 306 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: fall so steeply into eugenics and then ultimately the horrors 307 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: of the Third Reich. Well, if you look back, the 308 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: roots of eugenics UM go back pretty far. Um. You 309 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: know so Uh. On the one hand, Uh, so our 310 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: modern conception of race UH starts to develop as early 311 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: as really the fifteen hundreds are the fourteen hundreds, even 312 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: where in Spain, uh, Jews are are being considered a 313 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: separate race of people, and and and noble families have 314 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: to do have to draw out genealogies to prove that 315 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: they don't have any Jews in their in their ancestry. Um. 316 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: Otherwise they you know, they won't be able to get 317 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: that good job in government or so on. And so 318 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: that starts to develop this idea that that groups of 319 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: people are fundamentally different in some way that is carried 320 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: on from one generation to the next. Um. Then Uh, 321 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: in the in the eighteen hundreds, you start to see, 322 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, a real concern about UM poverty and crime, 323 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: and and a lot of people start to to make 324 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: claims that these are being carried down in certain families. 325 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: You know, there are these bad families and why is 326 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: it that one generation is just as bad as the 327 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: previous one. And you know, people talk about some sort 328 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: of hereditary curse that they must have. And and then 329 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: you know, how do we keep that curse from being propagated? Okay? 330 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: And so then when genetics gets discovered, um, a lot 331 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: of actual genesis themselves and uh and other and others 332 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: say well, aha, like here's here's the basis for what 333 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: we've been talking about for decades now. Um. And you know, 334 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: the word eugenics had actually been coined in eighteen eighties 335 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: by Francis Coulton, Uh, Darwin's cousin, and he just thought, well, 336 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: you know, if intelligence is inherited, then why don't we 337 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: just essentially breed people away we breed sheep, So you 338 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: just pick out the individuals who seemed to have, you know, 339 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: the most genius he would call it, and then encourage 340 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: them to have lots of kids. And and he had 341 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: these dreams that to produced what he called the galaxy 342 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: of genius in the future. Um. But by the time 343 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: that eugenics arrives in the United States and genetics emerges, 344 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: it takes on a much darker cast because people say, well, 345 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: what we really need to focus on is as these 346 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: people who have who we believe have genes that we 347 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: don't like, and we want to prevent them from reproducing, 348 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: because that's going to drag down our country, and so 349 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: what are we going to do to keep them from reproducing? 350 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: And um, that leads to sterilization and much worse. So, 351 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: in reading your chapter about Henry Goddard and the origins 352 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: of the American eugenics movement, I'm struck that this is 353 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: a potential example of the dangers of bad research. Like 354 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: you draw a really disturbing picture of how but like 355 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: sloppy or fraudulent work that became the basis of Henry 356 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: Goddard's published writings on heredity can be viewed in some 357 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: ways is contributing directly to real world consequences, like the 358 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: horrors of for sterilization in the United States or mass 359 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: murder in Europe. Do you ever think, when you see 360 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: bad science or pseudoscience being being publicized today that it 361 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: could ever lead to such nightmares that even its authors 362 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: might not have imagined? Uh, you know, I don't. I 363 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: think that we can't uh rule out those kinds of possibilities. 364 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it might be very, very unlikely, but I mean, 365 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: if you look at history, you can see how bad 366 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: science combined with existing prejudices led to really horrific outcomes. 367 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: And it wasn't that the science was somehow appropriated by 368 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: pseudo scientists or something. Uh. Eugenics was embraced by most 369 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: of the leading um biologists of the time. Uh and Uh, 370 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: there were different forms of eugenics, you know. So some 371 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: people were very much sort of concerned. We were quite 372 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: racist and you know, concerned about uh, you know, the 373 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: white quote unquote race being you know, polluted by other races. Um. 374 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: But then there were progressives who thought that this was 375 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: going to be part of their grand plan for making 376 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: society a better, fairer place. Um. And I think it's 377 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: really important to look at these episodes in history to 378 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: see how things go bad. Um. And I think it's 379 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: I think it's arrogant for any of us to say, well, 380 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: things like this could never happen again, you know, and 381 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: somehow we're vaccinated from from these sorts of things. But 382 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: we can draw lessons from the past, and we can 383 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: see how, um, how humble we need to be in 384 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: the face of complexity in in our own biology. You know. 385 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 1: We you know, I think we're in like in another revolution, 386 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: the way we were a hundred years ago, you know, 387 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: a hundred years ago, genetics itself was profoundly new. That 388 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: gene was a new thing. Uh. Now we're at the 389 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: point where we're looking at genomes, in other words, all 390 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: the genes in our in our selves, and we can 391 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: we can see them down to the atomic detail. UM, 392 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: but there's still a vast amount we do not understand 393 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: about it, and UM, you know, we we cannot let 394 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: that be an opportunity to uh, you know, card out 395 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: our old biases and prejudices and say, oh, I see 396 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: now science backs up what I was saying all along 397 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: about those other people. UM, we can't. We just we 398 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: cannot let that happen again. I think that's a really 399 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: good point. And I also think you can even look 400 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: at it as there's a flip side to it where 401 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: modern discoveries of genomics really complicate or in some sense 402 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: is undermine what many people have traditionally understood as the 403 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: concept of race within humans. Right. Yeah, So the scientific 404 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: concept of race UH developed in in the seventeen hundreds, 405 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: and it was really UM very much spurred on by 406 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: UH by what Europe was doing at the time. So 407 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: Europe was in the midst of building up huge colonies 408 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: UM and enslaving many many people. There was a need 409 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: for sort of legal and moral justifications for doing this, 410 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: and a lot of it, uh was based on these 411 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: concepts of race, so that for example, you know, Africans 412 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,719 Speaker 1: were were claimed to be a completely separate race, uh 413 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: that you know, had inherent uh inferiority to the white race. 414 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: And so therefore slavery is okay. And you can see 415 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: this again and again in in lots of lots of 416 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: writing at the time. Uh. Now, even in the early 417 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, Um, there were there were indications that this 418 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: kind that genetics was not aligning with these these uh 419 00:25:54,680 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: old ideas about race. They just weren't fitting neatly. Um. 420 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: You it was very it was it was becoming harder 421 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: and harder to sort of draw any particularly bright line 422 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: between groups of people. I mean, obviously people are different, uh. 423 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: You know, there are lots of differences and people in 424 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: terms of skin color and height and shapes of faces 425 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: and culture and all the rest of it. But the 426 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,959 Speaker 1: genes were not supporting these old ideas about race. And 427 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: by the midnighteteen hundreds of people, a lot of anthropologists 428 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: and geneticisis we're saying, you know, the word race is 429 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: so burdened with so much that's terrible and immoral and 430 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: has so little connection with the way we're starting to 431 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: understand populations. Let's just get abandoned it. Um, that really 432 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: hasn't that really didn't happen. But nevertheless, like now where 433 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: we can look at whole genomes. Um. Yeah, the whole 434 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: thing with race now is is it just is it's 435 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: a bit one. The way one Jenet has put it 436 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: to me is, well, you know, like talking for us, 437 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: like talking about races, like the way Greeks talked about 438 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: the you know, the four elements, air, fire, water, earth, 439 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: like you know it. You know, Aristotle could explain all 440 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: sorts of things, uh that way, and they seemed good 441 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: to him. But you know, we know that there's things 442 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: are much more complex than the four elements, and if 443 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: you forced physicists to go back to the four elements, 444 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: they'd be very unhappy. So genets are saying, like, please 445 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: don't make us go back to you know, the genetic 446 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: equivalent of the four elements. You know, we're you know, 447 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: they're very interested in ancestry and how populations mixed together, 448 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: how they become isolated, and all the rest of it. 449 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: But these old ideas about race and on all the 450 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: connotations of race, they don't map onto it at all, 451 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 1: so they just don't want to use it now. Of course, 452 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: in addition to just the passing on of genetic information, UH, 453 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: we also have epigenetics. And even as you explore the 454 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: effects of the microbiome, can can you talk about how 455 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: these if changed our definition of heredity. So in the 456 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: eight hundreds, heredity becomes a scientific question. You know, what 457 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: is it that makes one generation connected to the past? 458 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: Why is it that generations resemble their forerunners? Um? What 459 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: what are these connections? And uh, genetics provided a huge 460 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: part of that answer, which is that well, genes get 461 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: copied and then transmitted through eggs and sperm and uh. 462 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: And so that was a huge revolution and understanding. But 463 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that that is all that heredity can be. 464 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: I mean there's still the at least the logical possibility 465 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: that there are other ways that each generation be can 466 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: be connected to the to the previous ones. And so 467 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: in my book I talk about different forms of heredity 468 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: that scientists are exploring. Um. And so you know, one 469 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,239 Speaker 1: one very sighting possibility is what you referred to as 470 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: epigenetics and epigenetics is kind of a broad term, but 471 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: roughly speaking, what it refers to is the molecules inside 472 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: our cells that control our genes. That that allows some 473 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: genes to be switched on and to produce proteins and 474 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: others that are kept silent um. And you know, it's 475 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: it's very clear that this is incredibly important to our existence. 476 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's what makes your skin cells be skin cells, 477 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: and you're you know, brain cells be brain cells, like 478 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: they are using different genes in the same genome. And 479 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: when these cells divide um, the you know, a skin 480 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: cell does not normally instantly become a neuron or or 481 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: you know it doesn't you don't grow a tooth on 482 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: your back of your hand um. And that has to 483 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: do with epigenetics um. And so what does this have 484 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: to do with heredity, Well, you know, when the cells divide, 485 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: there are basically inheriting the genes and the epigenetics of 486 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: their mother's cell. But you know that the possibility rises, well, 487 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: what if you pass those down to the next generation altogether, 488 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, through eggs and sperm um. And there's some 489 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: evidence that that that can happen. And what makes us 490 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: especially exciting is that you know, through our lives, experiences 491 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: can change the epigenetic makeup of ourselves. You know, so 492 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: if you if you get sick, if you smoke, if 493 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: you experience stress, those all seemed to have an influence. 494 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: And so the open question is, well, how much can 495 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: those experiences we have in our lives then influence future generations. 496 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: I think that the jury is still very much out 497 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: when it comes to people, um, but in other species, 498 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: especially plants, there's lots of it, and that that really 499 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: is something that happens. You know, a plant goes through 500 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: a drought and generations later there's still an epigenetic mark 501 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: on its descendants. So yeah, epigenetics is in a really 502 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: exciting area. So you just alluded to some of the 503 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: controversy about epigenetics, and I guess there are other forms 504 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: of ideas of non genetic inheritance, but epigenetics in some 505 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: ways still remains controversial, especially in humans. Like you're talking about, 506 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: if you're comfortable speculating and if you had to guess, 507 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: how would you imagine our picture of non genetic inheritance 508 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: might change over the next fifty years or so? What's 509 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: your sense? You know? I think that it is actually 510 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: possible that we'll just find that, um, human epigenetics is 511 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: just not really that important. I mean, I'm actually I 512 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: think there's a reason to be kind of pessimistic. Um 513 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: that you know, there are these very cantalizing studies, but 514 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: they're small, and they could just be the result of 515 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,239 Speaker 1: noise and so on, and and yet you know, we 516 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: really want epigenetics to be real. Um. I mean, epigenetics 517 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: has totally taken hold of the popular consciousness. And you know, 518 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: I was astonished to learn not long ago that you 519 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: can take classes and epigenetic yoga, which is not kidding, 520 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,479 Speaker 1: you can google it. And the thinking is, the claim 521 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: is that you know that by doing this yoga you 522 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: change the epigenetic profile of yourselves. And you know I 523 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: and you know there are psych psychiatrists who will offer 524 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: you epigenetic analysis to basically undo the trauma that you 525 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: inherited from past generations. Um. It really speaks to us 526 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: in a very profound way. But I actually don't think 527 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,719 Speaker 1: the science is going to really hold up very well. Um, 528 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: because are but I don't think it looks like our 529 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: biology just doesn't really allow that to make much of 530 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: a difference. But you know, the flip side is that 531 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: culture UM is actually, I I would argue, an incredibly 532 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: important form of forredity, especially for our species. We we 533 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: passed down not just our genes to the next generation, 534 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: but all of our knowledge and and beliefs and customs 535 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: and so on, and those those get propelled down through 536 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: the generations UM in a very hereditary way and UM, 537 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: and that's actually very different from other species. And I 538 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: would and you know in the book, I talk about 539 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: how you could argue that civilization itself is the product 540 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: of our very special form of cultural inheritance. So in 541 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: talking about non genetic inheritance, you've got potentially epigenetics, though 542 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: the juries out on that, you've got, you've got culture. 543 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: But we should talk a little bit about microbiology. Can 544 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: you tell the story of how you found out that 545 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: your belly button contained bacteria only known to exist in 546 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: the Mariana Trench? Absolutely? Yeah. So I've been incredibly fascinated 547 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: by the microbiome, you know, all the bacteria that live 548 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: on us and in us. For quite some time, him 549 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: In and I have been doing some reporting on it 550 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: as scientists have found new ways to to explore our microbiome. 551 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: And it used to be that you just have to 552 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: scrape you know some you know, a little bit of 553 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: skin or take a stool sample and taken into a 554 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: lab and try to grow bacteria. And the fact is 555 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: that very few of the bacteria that live on us 556 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: uh or in us enjoy being in a petri dish 557 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: on their own. It just it makes them miserable and 558 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: they don't grow. So we had a very impoverished view 559 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: of this inner world until scientists were able to just say, okay, 560 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: we're going to grow into this sample and just grab 561 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: out all the DNA and we're gonna sequence all the 562 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: DNA and from that we're going to figure out what 563 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: is in there. And that totally revolution I studied the 564 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: microbiome because now you didn't have to grow these critters. 565 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,879 Speaker 1: You could just fish out there DNA and look at that. 566 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: So it turns out we have hundreds, maybe thousands of 567 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: species in our guts and on their skin and so 568 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: on and um and so you know, one day at 569 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: a meeting, UM I was walking past a scientist who 570 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: was holding out a qute tip and he said, I'm 571 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: doing a study on people's belly buttons. Would you mind 572 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,439 Speaker 1: giving me some of your belly button lint. Belly button lint, 573 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: and I want to see what's in there, you know, 574 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: and for someone like me, you don't have to ask 575 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: me twice. I'm like, give me that cute tip. So 576 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: you know, I go off into the bathroom and I, 577 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: you know, fiddle around and dunt get in a little tube. 578 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: But they gave me and handed it back. And then 579 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: they went off and they looked at all the DNA 580 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: there was on that cute tip, and you know, a 581 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: lot of it was my own skin cells, but then 582 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: a whole lot of it was not um. And actually 583 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: they identified fifty three species as I recall, of bacteria 584 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: just in my belly button, and uh, it was amazing 585 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: to to look at, uh the information about each of 586 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:08,479 Speaker 1: those species. And so one of them it had only 587 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: it's only known from a sample at the bottom of 588 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: the ocean. They marry on a trench um. And there's 589 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: another one that I have that's only been found in 590 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: soil in Japan. I've never been to Japan, so um. 591 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: But you know, this was entirely unsurprising to this scientist, 592 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: because you know, he was looking at lots of people 593 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: and was finding people with you know, over a hundred 594 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: species just in their belly button alone and from all 595 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: sorts of different places. UM. So what does this have 596 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: to do with heredity? Well, you know, I I did 597 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: not inherit that marry on a trench bacteria from my parents. UM. 598 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: It's just you know, we have all of this, these 599 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: these bacteria in the environment, um, and some of them 600 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: have become very well adapted to living on our body um, 601 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: and we just pick them up um through our life. 602 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: But it does seem that the microbiome that there is 603 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: some heredity to it. UM. The best examples come from 604 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: certain animals like that passed down bacteria to their offspring. 605 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: Then these bacteria can only live inside these animals, and 606 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,720 Speaker 1: without those bacteria, these animals die. The cockroaches are actually 607 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: a great example of this. So you know, one reason 608 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: the cockroaches are so successful is because they harbor one 609 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,399 Speaker 1: species of bacteria in a special little organ um where 610 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: it breaks down some of their food and gives them nutrients. Um. 611 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: And these bacteria never live outside of the cockroaches, and 612 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: actually they're they're sitting inside of cockroach cells and then 613 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: in the female cockroaches, those cells crawl over to an 614 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: egg and rip open, and then the bacteria infect the eggs, 615 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: so that cockroaches are born completely infected with these bacteria. 616 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: That's that to me, just seems that's heredity. I mean, 617 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 1: these bacteria are being passed down from millions of years 618 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: from parents to offspring. Um. So the question now is, well, 619 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: are is that true for humans? Um? Maybe not, uh, 620 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, in that particular way, but um, you know, 621 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 1: it is possible that there are a lot of species 622 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: that are very much adapted to us. You know, maybe 623 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: mothers are passing down certain kinds of bacteria and the 624 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: birth canal or during breastfeeding. Um. And maybe the most 625 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: dramatic example of all is that in all of ourselves 626 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,439 Speaker 1: we generate fuel with these little blobs called mitochondria, which 627 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: have their own DNA in them. And the reason they 628 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 1: have their own DNA is because they started out as 629 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: bacteria and about two billion years ago and our single 630 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: celled ancestors, those bacteria infected our ancestors and then took 631 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: up permanent residence in there and we cannot live without 632 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: them today. So um so, so MicroB is gonna have 633 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: a very powerful part in heredity. Do you think our 634 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: expanding consciousness about the full scope of heredity, from like 635 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: cross generation into symbionts or even to camerism, should force 636 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,720 Speaker 1: us to re examine our ideas about what it means 637 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: to be an individual and individual animal and what the 638 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: biological and categorical boundaries of the self really are. Absolutely, uh, 639 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: you know, I think that uh, you know, heredity does 640 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: not actually follow a lot of the simple rules that 641 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: we assume it does, uh, and it and it does 642 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: bring into question what it means to be an individual 643 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:50,399 Speaker 1: because you know, we think of he started out with 644 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: some original genome in a fertilized egg, so we inherited 645 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: half of that genome for me to our parents. It 646 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: came together in this new combination and that's us. But 647 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: you know that is not actually us. Um and in 648 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: lots of different ways. So in one way, I mean, 649 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: if you actually follow the cells that divide in an embryo, 650 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: those cells can mutate and then you tate again and 651 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: youtate again, so that if you were to look at, say, 652 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: any two neurons in your brain, they would be different 653 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:29,959 Speaker 1: from each other because they have acquired different mutations as 654 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: we developed. UM. So there is no one genome in 655 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: our body because we are what scientists say call us 656 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: our mosaics. UM. But then that's not the not the 657 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 1: end of it. Um. So you know, we think of 658 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: heredity is going down through the generations, but heredity can 659 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: also come back up in reverse. Uh. And so one 660 00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: example of this is um when when and become pregnant, uh, 661 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: cells from their fetus will circulate around in their blood. 662 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: You can actually you can actually draw blood from a 663 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: pregnant woman and sequence the genome of the fetus. Uh. 664 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: We that is done in a regular basis. Now uh 665 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: after pregnancy, Uh, those fetal cells may go away because 666 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: of the mother's immune system is clearing them out. But 667 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: surprisingly often UH those cells can establish them cells in 668 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: a mother's liver or thyroid gland, even her brain. And 669 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,919 Speaker 1: scientists refer to uh such people as chimeras. Um. It's 670 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: after the you know, the beast of Greek mythology. And 671 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: you can get chimeras also from twins in the womb 672 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: who are sharing DNA sharing cells uh. And so you 673 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: can literally like have um. You know that one of 674 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: the first discoveries of this was a woman who gave 675 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:10,720 Speaker 1: blood in the nineteen fifties and totally baffled the blood 676 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: bank because she was giving two types of blood at 677 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: the same time. And he said, this is not possible. 678 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: You know, there must be some contamination somewhere. But it 679 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:23,200 Speaker 1: turned out that her blood was made up from two individuals, 680 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: herself and a twin who had died when he was 681 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,840 Speaker 1: in infancy. Uh. And so you know, and this is 682 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: not something that's rare. Timerism is probably quite common among humans, 683 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: and it really challenges these these ideas that we we 684 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: tell ourselves about heredity and individuality. One of the weirdest 685 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: and most interesting types of heredity you discussed in the 686 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: book is that I think you said it's eight or 687 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,319 Speaker 1: so lines of contagious cancer found in nature so far. 688 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about contagious cancer and 689 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: does it make sense to think of this cancer as 690 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: an independent animal or organism of its own type, or 691 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 1: as sort of an infection from an original animals genome. Yeah, 692 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: this is where credity gets really weird, because you know, 693 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: when when cancer arises in our bodies, it's a it's 694 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: another one of these cases of mosaicism. In other words, Uh, 695 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 1: these cancer cells are gaining mutations that the rest of 696 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 1: the body doesn't have, and those mutations allow them to 697 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:35,760 Speaker 1: reproduce quickly and to be very aggressive and destructive. Now, 698 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: UM cancer usually UH, you know, either is wiped out 699 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:47,400 Speaker 1: by the body or is lethal. In either case, you 700 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,839 Speaker 1: don't have cancer surviving beyond the life of its host. 701 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: We we think of that as being weird, but it 702 00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:01,919 Speaker 1: turns out that in fact cancer can endure UM. And 703 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 1: this was really first discovered UM in in a uh 704 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 1: in a case with dogs where dogs would be uh 705 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: developing UM these these tumors UH, and it was very 706 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: odd that they the cancer seemed to spread like an 707 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,839 Speaker 1: infectious disease, and so people scratching their head over this, 708 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 1: and then they realized that actually what had happened was 709 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: that the cancer cells themselves were spreading from one dog 710 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 1: to another to another UM and so that the cancer 711 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 1: cells were not in fact related to the dogs that 712 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 1: they were in. And if you look at the DNA 713 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 1: of this cancer, it goes back to some dog that 714 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: lived maybe ten thousand years ago, and it has just 715 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,440 Speaker 1: been spreading from dog to dog ever since, and it's 716 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,239 Speaker 1: been mutating along the way. And it's and so it's 717 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: the thing that you know, it's it's what you call it. 718 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,400 Speaker 1: I mean I don't know what we could call it, 719 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: but you know, some have argued that it should be 720 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: just given its own species name, because it's it's this, 721 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: it's this lineage of animal cells that has its own 722 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 1: genome UM, and has its own way of getting around 723 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: in the world. It's it's doing just flying UM. So 724 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,359 Speaker 1: surely it deserves a name. UM. And then it turns 725 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 1: out that in a few other cases, scientists have founded 726 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 1: another species, so Tasmanian devils in Tasmania, they get a 727 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: facial tumor because they bite each other when they're fighting, 728 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,799 Speaker 1: and they spread this cancer to each other. UM. And 729 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,719 Speaker 1: this this cancer has actually arisen a couple of times 730 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 1: in Tasmania just in recent decades, so it isn't something 731 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: that only happened once a long time ago. And what's 732 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: most mind blowing is that some scientists stumbles across this 733 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 1: yet again, just in the past few years, UH in clams, 734 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 1: in shellfish UH and have discovered that there there's contagious 735 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,319 Speaker 1: cancer in the ocean. UM. So you're swimming. As you're 736 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: swimming in the ocean, you're swimming around cancer cells that 737 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,759 Speaker 1: are moving from host to host. An infectious cancer as 738 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: its own type of organism. What kingdom of life would 739 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 1: that be? Would it be an animal? I yes, it 740 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: would be an animal simply because it's descended from animals. Yeah, 741 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: I mean I would say they would have to be given, 742 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: you know, a place in the animal kingdom. But and 743 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you should just still call it like 744 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: a species of you know, maybe the dog cancer should 745 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: be a species of dog. Maybe you know, canus canus 746 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: cancer or something. I don't know, I don't know, um, 747 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: but you know it's and you know, when when and 748 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 1: when you talk about or what makes up an animal, 749 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 1: you know, like, uh, what makes up up us? You know, 750 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,880 Speaker 1: like we think of cancer cells as being part of ourselves. 751 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: They they originate from our own cells. But um, imagine 752 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,839 Speaker 1: if your body was actually made up of your own 753 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: cells and then cells that came from someone ten years ago, 754 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: that that would be weird. Yeah. Alright, time for a 755 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,200 Speaker 1: quick break. Then we will be right back for more 756 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: of our conversation with Carl zimmer Than. All right, we're 757 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 1: back now. We can't talk about the future of heredity 758 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,800 Speaker 1: without touching on crisper. How is this technology affecting the 759 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: future of human redity? Well, you know, we're going to 760 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 1: have to wait and see exactly what happens, but certainly 761 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:35,839 Speaker 1: the potential is profound. UM Crisper is just a few 762 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: years old, and it's this is this technology essentially to 763 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: zero in on any particular bit of DNA, cut it out, 764 00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,400 Speaker 1: and if you want, insert a different little stretch of 765 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,719 Speaker 1: DNA in there. So um, this raises the possibility of 766 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:57,680 Speaker 1: being able to cure hereditary diseases by rewriting uh, the 767 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: DNA in cells, you know, to repair or a faulty gene. 768 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,520 Speaker 1: But what some scientists have been already exploring is, well, 769 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,400 Speaker 1: what if you take human embryonic cells. What if you 770 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,919 Speaker 1: take you know, human embryos are just a tiny little 771 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:16,480 Speaker 1: cluster just you know, seven or eight cells, and you 772 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 1: use Crisper to rewrite their DNA. UM, let's say you 773 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: fix a hereditary disease in just this handful of just 774 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: as few cells. Well that if if you if that 775 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,680 Speaker 1: if a person were to develop from those cells, they 776 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 1: they would have Crisper altered genes throughout their whole body, 777 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 1: and if they were to have children, they would pass 778 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:44,239 Speaker 1: on those Crisper altered genes as well. And so you 779 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: know that that that these experiments have already begun on 780 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: on these tiny little human embryos, and so really, you 781 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,799 Speaker 1: know what what needs to happen now is for us 782 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:03,720 Speaker 1: to have a really a kind of global conversation about 783 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: whether we want to use this or not, whether it's safe, 784 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 1: whether it's ethical, UM, how do we feel about who 785 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,759 Speaker 1: should have access to this? UM? Do we have the 786 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: right to alter future generations? Um? And you know we 787 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 1: and maybe we'll feel comfortable with, say, you know, eradicating 788 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 1: hunting news disease. But what if somebody says, well, yeah, 789 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:32,719 Speaker 1: but I want I'm using IVF and I want to 790 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: just give my kids, Uh, this mutation that we know 791 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: reduces your odds of getting Alzheimer's? Could I do that 792 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,399 Speaker 1: as well? And then you know what if you add 793 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:44,160 Speaker 1: on other things? What if you add on things that 794 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,640 Speaker 1: are not don't have to do with immediately treating some 795 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,759 Speaker 1: pready disorder, but you know, change a trait, change, hair color, change, height, change, 796 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,440 Speaker 1: all these things are people who are going to be 797 00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,200 Speaker 1: comfortable with that, UM and this all you know this 798 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,040 Speaker 1: science fiction writers have had a monopoly on this conversation 799 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,800 Speaker 1: until now, but I think that everybody else needs to 800 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,840 Speaker 1: be talking about it too now as far as crisper 801 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:15,399 Speaker 1: altered genes go, given like a near future scenario, would 802 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,680 Speaker 1: they be detectable? What would somebody be able to say 803 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 1: to to look at individual's genome and say, oh, well 804 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,880 Speaker 1: you've had there's gene altering evidence here. Or would a 805 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,800 Speaker 1: future civilization be able to look back at our genetic 806 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,279 Speaker 1: information and say, oh, well look here in this particular 807 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,360 Speaker 1: family line, we see evidence of of of of crisper alteration. 808 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: That's an interesting question. Um, I I think you would. 809 00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:43,680 Speaker 1: I think that it would be possible if the people 810 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: doing the crisper changing um left behind, you know, a 811 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,600 Speaker 1: mark of what they were doing, you know, a little 812 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,160 Speaker 1: water mark. Think of it that way. You know, some 813 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 1: distinctive sequence of non coding DNA nearby that basically says hello, 814 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,719 Speaker 1: you know this is this, this crisper alteration has brought 815 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,840 Speaker 1: to you courtesy of such and such hospital. You know, UM, 816 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,800 Speaker 1: you could totally encode a message in DNA people. You know, 817 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,400 Speaker 1: people have enquoded entire books in DNA now, so you 818 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 1: could do that. Um, But if you if somebody decided 819 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 1: not to leave a water mark, then no, actually, I 820 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:27,399 Speaker 1: think it might be very difficult to um to say, oh, well, 821 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:33,360 Speaker 1: this person descends from a crispered ancestor knowing knowing tech companies. 822 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 1: I know we'd end up with like thirty page el 823 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,760 Speaker 1: agreements in there, sure absolutely, But you know the problem 824 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,879 Speaker 1: is that you know that over the generations that would 825 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:45,759 Speaker 1: get that agreement would mutate and uh, you know, the 826 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,760 Speaker 1: legal language would would change into things that the lawyers 827 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:53,680 Speaker 1: didn't have in mind. So given the great power that 828 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,600 Speaker 1: crisper has to to allow us to alter our chenes, 829 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 1: what what do you think are the best is you've 830 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:05,000 Speaker 1: heard about how to guide it in a way that's 831 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,880 Speaker 1: that's fair, that's uh going to have good outcomes and 832 00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,360 Speaker 1: not bad that uh you know the people have access 833 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:16,240 Speaker 1: to in in equitable ways. I mean, have you encountered 834 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,320 Speaker 1: anybody who has done the best what you would consider 835 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,680 Speaker 1: the best thinking so far on the ethics of gene alteration? 836 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,680 Speaker 1: You know, I I in the United States, the government 837 00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:31,760 Speaker 1: is really just being very uh emphatic and not wanting 838 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,720 Speaker 1: to really talk about these issues at all. So uh, 839 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, not only is it not allowed to do 840 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,440 Speaker 1: germ line modification, but you can't do any research that 841 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:47,200 Speaker 1: might lead to that, and so um, we're not really 842 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,799 Speaker 1: having a meaningful conversation in the United States. Yet I 843 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:56,239 Speaker 1: think UM and UH. Unfortunately, what that means is that 844 00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,719 Speaker 1: people are going to want to go to other countries 845 00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,719 Speaker 1: where there is no particular regulation one or the other 846 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:09,319 Speaker 1: and do that in you know, in UM, in you know, 847 00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 1: clinics or that are hidden from view. UM. And in 848 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,480 Speaker 1: my book I talk about one case where actually this 849 00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: has already happened. UM. A couple went to Mexico and 850 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:24,840 Speaker 1: an American doctor joined them there to uh to basically 851 00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:29,799 Speaker 1: replace the mitochondria in this woman's eggs with with healthy, 852 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,920 Speaker 1: healthy ones. UM. So you know, there are some genetically 853 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,600 Speaker 1: modified people alive today. UM. There there are a few, UM, 854 00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:44,880 Speaker 1: but they're they're already here. UM. But they I think 855 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,919 Speaker 1: that it's a better, better way to deal with this 856 00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:52,760 Speaker 1: is what England is doing. So in England this treatment 857 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:57,279 Speaker 1: called mitochondrial replacement therapy. UM. There was there was a 858 00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,279 Speaker 1: lot of research that was done on it, um uh 859 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:05,279 Speaker 1: using animals, using using you know, eggs, human eggs, and 860 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 1: so on and then UM and then Parliament actually had 861 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,640 Speaker 1: a big, full debate about it and you know, the 862 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,920 Speaker 1: advantages and the possible risks and the ethics and so on, 863 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,759 Speaker 1: and then they decided, well, we're going to allow this 864 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,880 Speaker 1: to happen, but it's going to happen under these rules. 865 00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,919 Speaker 1: So you know, you can't just like walk into any 866 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,560 Speaker 1: doctor's office and get this therapy like that. You know, 867 00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna really make really uh take We're gonna take 868 00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,480 Speaker 1: real care to make sure that this has done safely 869 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 1: and responsibly and under the right circumstances. And so now 870 00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,600 Speaker 1: there is a university that has actually you know, gotten 871 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,680 Speaker 1: permission to basically open their doors for business UM. And 872 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,280 Speaker 1: I think that's the way to go UM, because then 873 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,719 Speaker 1: you can you can have these discussions and say, like, 874 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,960 Speaker 1: you know what, as a society, we don't want uh 875 00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,440 Speaker 1: people to be trying to make their kids more intelligent 876 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,080 Speaker 1: by altering their genes. We think that's a that's bad 877 00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,480 Speaker 1: for individuals and bad for society. We're not going to 878 00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:10,680 Speaker 1: allow it. Um, and that will actually happen rather than 879 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:14,160 Speaker 1: sending people to other countries to have you know, possibly 880 00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,439 Speaker 1: dangerous treatments. UM. That's the way I think uh things 881 00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,640 Speaker 1: should go. UM. And you can see an example of 882 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,279 Speaker 1: it in England. And it would be great if if 883 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,080 Speaker 1: the United States could follow suit, you know, on this 884 00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,160 Speaker 1: show a lot we talk about how often like science 885 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,120 Speaker 1: fiction is sort of the playground for people working out 886 00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:36,280 Speaker 1: these problems before they're dealt with in the real world. 887 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,160 Speaker 1: Have you encountered any any science fiction or fiction in 888 00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,560 Speaker 1: general that you thought did a good job of dealing 889 00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,680 Speaker 1: with you know, raised the interesting questions, had intelligent things 890 00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,240 Speaker 1: to say about the implications of genetic engineering and humans. 891 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,400 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think that there's a long tradition of 892 00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:01,960 Speaker 1: genetic engineering in science fiction. Um and uh and even 893 00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:05,080 Speaker 1: before people really knew what genetic engineering was. You know, 894 00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,640 Speaker 1: A Brave New World is a fascinating book even now. 895 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:13,000 Speaker 1: I mean, and it's amazing when you think how um, 896 00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:19,440 Speaker 1: how much uh uh was just only discovered after the 897 00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:25,600 Speaker 1: publication of the book. Um and I I find that 898 00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,800 Speaker 1: one quite quite prophetic. I think the problem with science 899 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:33,719 Speaker 1: fiction comes when people think that anything can happen. That 900 00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:39,240 Speaker 1: when people think that biology allows anything you can imagine 901 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:43,439 Speaker 1: to be a possibility. Um and the fact is that 902 00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,160 Speaker 1: biology doesn't work that way. And so you know, when 903 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:51,400 Speaker 1: when we're actually talking, you know, today about well, what 904 00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:58,600 Speaker 1: are the real possibilities that Crisper could create? I think 905 00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:00,840 Speaker 1: we need to sort of I think we need to 906 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,560 Speaker 1: make sure that we're not um, just letting our fantasies 907 00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,040 Speaker 1: run wild. You know. Some people have said, like, oh, 908 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,480 Speaker 1: well you'll just be able to um Christoper your kid 909 00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,200 Speaker 1: and and turn them into a genius. UM. And that 910 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:19,400 Speaker 1: it's not what science indicates. I mean, you know, intelligence 911 00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:24,800 Speaker 1: is this incredibly complex phenomenon that is, you know, influenced 912 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,160 Speaker 1: by genes, it's influenced by the environment. It's partly a 913 00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,640 Speaker 1: social thing, you know, in terms of like you know, 914 00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,120 Speaker 1: intelligence really sort of gaining its meaning in you know, 915 00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:39,320 Speaker 1: in a society. UM. And you can't just zoom in 916 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,080 Speaker 1: on a on a few genes and make a tweak 917 00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,240 Speaker 1: here and there and say ah ha, like now my 918 00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,040 Speaker 1: child is going to you know, get into the very 919 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,120 Speaker 1: best colleges. It just does not work that way. UM. 920 00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:55,439 Speaker 1: And and I think that if people just go ahead 921 00:57:55,480 --> 00:58:00,000 Speaker 1: with it anyway, UM, those children are going to be born, um, 922 00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,360 Speaker 1: not just with these odd little changes to their genes, 923 00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:07,080 Speaker 1: but with a whole huge set of expectations um from 924 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,040 Speaker 1: their parents. You know, I spent a hundred thousand dollars 925 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,080 Speaker 1: to change your genes to make you a genius. And 926 00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,400 Speaker 1: why are you getting these grades in math? What's what's 927 00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:20,000 Speaker 1: wrong with you? I just see a That's where I 928 00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:24,320 Speaker 1: see the real dystopia emerging. Is just expecting heredity to 929 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,080 Speaker 1: do much more than it can possibly do, uh to 930 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,360 Speaker 1: to alter ourselves. That's really interesting and it raises another 931 00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,440 Speaker 1: question that definitely comes up in the book, which is 932 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,520 Speaker 1: that even when we're talking about traits that are to 933 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,280 Speaker 1: some large extent heritable, what are some of the reasons 934 00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:44,040 Speaker 1: that it can create misunderstandings for us to talk about 935 00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:47,959 Speaker 1: there being quote a gene for a certain trait. Yeah, 936 00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,800 Speaker 1: we really have come to look at genes as being 937 00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:56,520 Speaker 1: all powerful and and that is a real mistake and 938 00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:00,920 Speaker 1: it's but it's hard to really um get your head 939 00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:06,560 Speaker 1: around the paradox of heredity in this regard um. And 940 00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:08,720 Speaker 1: one of the examples I like to talk about is height. 941 00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,480 Speaker 1: You know, height seems like it's simple, like it's just 942 00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:14,760 Speaker 1: it's just a number that you get off a tape measure, 943 00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,200 Speaker 1: Like how hard could that be to understand? But you know, 944 00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:23,080 Speaker 1: in in fact, um, you know, heredity is this very 945 00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:27,520 Speaker 1: weird mix of genes in the environment. Um, you know 946 00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:31,960 Speaker 1: gene so height is is very what scientist say, very heritable, 947 00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:36,520 Speaker 1: meaning that if you look at the variation among people 948 00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,120 Speaker 1: in a particular population. Why are they tall, why are 949 00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,480 Speaker 1: they're short? Uh, you can explain a lot of that 950 00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,880 Speaker 1: because of the genes that they inherited from their parents. 951 00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,400 Speaker 1: So tall parents tend to have tall children, short parents 952 00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,040 Speaker 1: tend to have short children. And it's so that means 953 00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,680 Speaker 1: it's very heritable. UM. But that does not mean that, 954 00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,600 Speaker 1: you know, height is somehow um law sped in and 955 01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,360 Speaker 1: fixed that. It does not mean that you can actually, 956 01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, finally predict um the you know how tall 957 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,000 Speaker 1: it could will be, just based on their genes. In fact, 958 01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,200 Speaker 1: we didn't even know about any of these genes until 959 01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,240 Speaker 1: the past decade or so. Uh. And now scientists are 960 01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:21,120 Speaker 1: discovering literally thousands of genes that influence height, each one 961 01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:23,600 Speaker 1: in a tiny little bit. You know, I got my 962 01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:27,240 Speaker 1: genome sequence and discovered you know that I had. It's 963 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,960 Speaker 1: very interested to find that a one particular gene. It 964 01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,120 Speaker 1: was the first gene that was ever linked to height 965 01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:37,680 Speaker 1: in population. And uh, I'm I'm about an eighth of 966 01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:39,720 Speaker 1: an inch taller than it would be otherwise because of 967 01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:43,480 Speaker 1: the variant that I have, So you know, it's it's 968 01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,520 Speaker 1: almost invisible. UM. But you know, the genetic influence just 969 01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:51,480 Speaker 1: is the some of all of these different variants. UM. 970 01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,960 Speaker 1: And yet on top of all of that, UM, you know, 971 01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,520 Speaker 1: you can have, you know, all the tall genes you want, 972 01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,640 Speaker 1: but if you're not getting a good diet when you're 973 01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:04,920 Speaker 1: a kid, and if you're facing dysentery on a regular basis, 974 01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:06,920 Speaker 1: you're just not going to grow that tall because your 975 01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:11,440 Speaker 1: body is going to be basically channeling all those resources 976 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:16,280 Speaker 1: to fighting disease and to you know, fight defend against starvation. 977 01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,080 Speaker 1: And you know, on top of that, even more amazing 978 01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:22,320 Speaker 1: to me is that in the whole world has actually 979 01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:26,160 Speaker 1: gotten several inches taller over the past century because life 980 01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,320 Speaker 1: overall is better. You know, there's more people have a 981 01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:34,840 Speaker 1: better nutrition, better medicine. Education probably plays a role in this. Uh. 982 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:39,760 Speaker 1: And so it's not that people inherited you know, quote 983 01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:43,880 Speaker 1: unquote tall genes, it's that they inherited a world that 984 01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:47,800 Speaker 1: favors greater height. So I've got one last question that 985 01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,440 Speaker 1: might be kind of weird, but we'll see what you 986 01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,920 Speaker 1: think of it. I often hear hear people talking about 987 01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,440 Speaker 1: their relationship with their own genome, um with their own 988 01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:03,360 Speaker 1: genes into basic ways. One is self identification, you know, 989 01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:06,440 Speaker 1: it's like, my genes are why I am like X, 990 01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,040 Speaker 1: and so there there's a sort of I identify with 991 01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:12,600 Speaker 1: my genes mentality. And then there's a kind of antagonistic 992 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:15,680 Speaker 1: kind of thing people think about with their genes, like 993 01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:20,240 Speaker 1: the genes are this other disembodied force that made them 994 01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:23,040 Speaker 1: and it's almost like another person that they have to 995 01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:26,280 Speaker 1: negotiate with in some way. To what extent do you, 996 01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,120 Speaker 1: given all of the research you've done and after having 997 01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:33,280 Speaker 1: written this book, to what extent do you feel you 998 01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,600 Speaker 1: are your genes or that your genes are this separate 999 01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:40,680 Speaker 1: other force from you as a person. That's interesting. I yeah, 1000 01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:44,000 Speaker 1: I've heard that kind of language too, you know. And 1001 01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:47,320 Speaker 1: people will get their DNA sequenced and they'll discover they 1002 01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:51,440 Speaker 1: have a particular variant linked to some train and say, ah, 1003 01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:55,200 Speaker 1: well that's why I do X, Y Z, or or 1004 01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:59,120 Speaker 1: they'll discover they have ancestry from a particular place and say, ah, 1005 01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,600 Speaker 1: well that's why I that's why I like to tell stories, 1006 01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:05,360 Speaker 1: or that's why I like to run or what have you. 1007 01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:07,960 Speaker 1: Um And you know, you see ads on TV for 1008 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,760 Speaker 1: these companies like ancestry dot com that play on that 1009 01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:15,680 Speaker 1: exact attitude towards our genes that somehow, you know, what 1010 01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,360 Speaker 1: we do in our lives is encapsulated in these genes 1011 01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,880 Speaker 1: that we inherit from our ancestors. Um. And then yeah, 1012 01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:24,600 Speaker 1: then there are people who just want to fight against it, um, 1013 01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,480 Speaker 1: you know, and part of that sometimes feels like, you know, 1014 01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,560 Speaker 1: it's it's sort of a displaced fight they're having with 1015 01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:32,400 Speaker 1: their parents, you know, like I'm not gonna be like 1016 01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:34,720 Speaker 1: you were, you know, and I don't care if I 1017 01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:38,440 Speaker 1: inherited gens from you. I'm going to be my own person, um, 1018 01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:41,560 Speaker 1: I would say, in my own experience. UM. You know, 1019 01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,640 Speaker 1: I got my genome sequenced and part of the research 1020 01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:47,480 Speaker 1: for this book, and I really looked at it very deeply. 1021 01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:51,360 Speaker 1: It's been a fascinating experience. But I can't find anything 1022 01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:57,400 Speaker 1: in there that is quote unquote me. I think that 1023 01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,640 Speaker 1: it's just not there, you know. I I was able 1024 01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:04,200 Speaker 1: to look at the genes that I inherited from Neandertal, 1025 01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, tens of thousands of years ago, and you know, 1026 01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:10,200 Speaker 1: which is fascinating. But then I say to these scientists, like, Okay, 1027 01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,360 Speaker 1: you've given me this catalog, got the indertal genes, let's 1028 01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,240 Speaker 1: talk about them. Like, what what does it mean that 1029 01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,240 Speaker 1: I inherit this particular Like, here's one gene, Tell me 1030 01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:21,240 Speaker 1: about it, and the scientists be like, well, it looks 1031 01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:24,240 Speaker 1: like no one actually knows what this gene does at all, 1032 01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, and then that you're just left there. But 1033 01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:29,800 Speaker 1: with the state of the science, you know, maybe I 1034 01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,760 Speaker 1: found that I have a neandertal gene that UM is 1035 01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:38,520 Speaker 1: linked to an increased risk of nose bleeds. I don't know. 1036 01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:40,480 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with that, you know, 1037 01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:43,920 Speaker 1: And it also makes me wonder why neandertals might have nosebleeds. 1038 01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:47,120 Speaker 1: But that's a whole separate issue. But you know, I 1039 01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:51,360 Speaker 1: I don't I I can't say that anything I've done 1040 01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:54,280 Speaker 1: looking at my own d d n A has given 1041 01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:58,440 Speaker 1: me some deep insight about my inner self as a person, 1042 01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:02,400 Speaker 1: you know, as it's much more relevant to me to 1043 01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:06,800 Speaker 1: think about, you know, how my parents raised me and 1044 01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:09,360 Speaker 1: what my experiences were as a kid, and what it 1045 01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,200 Speaker 1: has been like, you know, being married and and and 1046 01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:16,400 Speaker 1: being a father, Like the lived experience matters much more 1047 01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:20,400 Speaker 1: to me than UM than the details of the genome 1048 01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:25,000 Speaker 1: I inherited from my parents. UM. And that's that's kind 1049 01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:29,320 Speaker 1: of where it stands for me now, all right, yeah, well, well, 1050 01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:31,320 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Carl. It's been a real pleasure 1051 01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:34,000 Speaker 1: talking to you today, and we appreciate you taking time 1052 01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:36,480 Speaker 1: to speak with us. My pleasure, my pleasure. I really 1053 01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:38,760 Speaker 1: enjoyed the conversation and I'm I'm glad you enjoyed the book. 1054 01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:44,800 Speaker 1: So there you have it. Thanks once again to Carl 1055 01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:48,160 Speaker 1: Zimmer for coming on the show and having this wonderful 1056 01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:51,120 Speaker 1: chat with us about his new book, She Has Her 1057 01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:54,680 Speaker 1: Mother's Laugh, The Powers, Perversions and Potential of Heredity Again. 1058 01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:57,360 Speaker 1: That's available in hardback, as a digital and as an 1059 01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:59,920 Speaker 1: audiobook right now, and you can check out Carl's website 1060 01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,480 Speaker 1: Carl Zimmer dot com for even more about him and 1061 01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:07,160 Speaker 1: his projects. That's right, go to that website. And hey, 1062 01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:09,520 Speaker 1: be sure to check out our website as well. It's 1063 01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:11,440 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's who you'll 1064 01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,680 Speaker 1: find all of our episodes. You'll also find links out 1065 01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:16,960 Speaker 1: to our various social media accounts, so you can check 1066 01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,160 Speaker 1: those out as well. I want to remind everybody if 1067 01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:21,320 Speaker 1: you want to support the show, one of the best 1068 01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,720 Speaker 1: things you can do is rate and review us wherever 1069 01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,760 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Big thanks as always to our 1070 01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:31,320 Speaker 1: wonderful audio producers Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison. 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