1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media, Hello, and welcome to Cool People did 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: Cool Stuff, your weekly reminder that when bad things happen, 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: people can do good things in response to it, and 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: your weekly reminder that sometimes we all fall into the 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 1: trap of seeing things as good and bad. But actually 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: it's true. There are things that are good and there 7 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: are things that are bad, And even though morality is subjective, 8 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: there are some things that are just true. Like it's 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: true that I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy and with me 10 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: today as my guest on this part three out of 11 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: four is James Hi. 12 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 2: James Hi, Margaret, It's nice to be here. 13 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: How are you? Usually I make the joke about this 14 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: on this totally different day, but it is a different. 15 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 2: Day, different day. Yeah, we've had a weekend. Yeah, someone 16 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 2: has tried to shoot Donald Trump. Yep, that's the thing 17 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 2: that happened this weekend. I went for a nice trail run. 18 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: It's nice. I picked some fennel. I mentioned the fennel 19 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: because I shoved it in my running pack and it's 20 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: choosed now and I've just recovered it and unfortunately it's 21 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 2: no longer an edible condition, which is which is sad. 22 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: This is very relatable to me. 23 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: I just just fucked like a magpie, just just taking 24 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 2: things and then having no ability to use them. 25 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's how I got the name Magpie. 26 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 2: Really, do you like shiny stuff? 27 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, rusty things. I would find little trash on the 28 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: street and bring them back to where I was staying. 29 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: So someone started calling me Magpie. And then later I 30 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: met someone named Magpie whose full name was Margaret, and 31 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: I was like, there's an idea. 32 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 2: I love that. It's really sweet. Do you also collect 33 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: cool stones? I do, not as much as I used to. 34 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: When I like hitchiked and traveled full time. I just had, 35 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 2: like we call it goblin treasure. Me and all my 36 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: friends would collect like rusty objects and like little neat 37 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: stones and things like that, and then make a kind 38 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: of jewelry out of it all. Yeah. I love to 39 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: do that. I'd love to have a jar of stones 40 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: on my desk, just just neat stones from around the world. 41 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: Hell yeah, I was picking one up recently in Syria. 42 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 2: My fixer was like, you cannot be picking up cool looking, 43 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 2: shiny shit from the ground, so this is how we 44 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: all die. Yeah, that makes sense, which is the thing 45 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 2: I know intellectually. You know that you see a nice 46 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: stony you just want to just want to own it. 47 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: I think everyone has a little magpie, you know, sitting 48 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: on their shoulder, chirping in. 49 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: Their ear, yeah, telling them to pick up shiny things. 50 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: One of our ear chirpers is today's producer, who's Ian Hi, Ian. 51 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 2: Hey, magpie, Hey James, how are you guys doing good? 52 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 2: Were great? 53 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: And our audio engineer is Danel Hi Daniel. Everyone's say 54 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: hy to Daniel. 55 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 2: Sorry, Hi Daniel, Hi Daniel. 56 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: Our theme music was written for us by unwoman. I 57 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: it becomes this thing where like I sometimes forget to 58 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: have everyone say hi to Daniel, but then like when 59 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: I do, it like haunts me, and I'm convinced that 60 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: the episode will be bad. I don't normally have these 61 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: compulsive behaviors, but that has become one, and so we 62 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,399 Speaker 1: will just stick with it because what I'm beating around 63 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: the bush around is that this is probably gonna be 64 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: the darkest episode of cool People did Cool Stuff that 65 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: I've ever recorded, because here we are in part three 66 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: about Armenian resistance to genocide, and that means that today 67 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about the Armenian genocide. 68 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: Oh dear, see, this is like Coming of Roberts Show. 69 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: Now you're just gonna tell me. 70 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: Know, it's always a little bit like that, right, because 71 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 1: when I first started this, I was like, Oh, it's 72 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: just gonna be all the fun people, and then you're like, oh, 73 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: my definition of fun people is usually people who are 74 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: like fighting against the most evil things that have ever 75 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: happened in the history of the world. 76 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you have to go through to bad stuff. 77 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: Like you could imagine a cut of Star Wars, Like, 78 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: imagine Star Wars is cool, people did cool stuff. However, 79 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: you could do a behind the Bastards and it would 80 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: just be all of the details of blowing up alder On. 81 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have the whole narrative hit, we have it. 82 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: I like that. I like the analogy. 83 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm better, is what I'm trying to say. 84 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's kind of in the Ja ja binks area. 85 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 2: Where's you a more. 86 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly? This is totally a fight that I want 87 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: to pick and care about. 88 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, please tweet your thoughts about which Star Wars character 89 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 2: rober Evans would be to Margaret at I write, okay 90 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 2: on Twitter. 91 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: So, the Armenian genocide, like the Assyrian genocide in the 92 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: Greek genocide that all happened at the same time was 93 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: a systematic mass murder, exile, or forced conversion of nearly 94 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: all the Christians in Anatolia like what's now Turkey. This 95 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: is generally seen as the first modern genocide in terms 96 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: of a systematic approach to the destruction of an entire 97 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: ethnicity and all of its people. I didn't end up 98 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: including it into the script, but I read a whole 99 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: bunch about how the word genocide came to be because 100 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: looking at this, and then in the immediate wake of 101 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: the holocaust of the World War two, people were like, 102 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: we don't have a word for kill all the people, 103 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: you know. 104 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we had to come up with a 105 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: whole new word for something that was so terrible that 106 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: we hadn't invented a word for yet. 107 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, like crime beyond crime. And obviously people had done 108 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: it before, right, right, we are both recording from places 109 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: that that has happened, you know. 110 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, And like European folks did this to indigenous people 111 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: sort over the world, right, Like I'm thinking of the 112 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 2: Herero genocide for example, Like, yeah, we did it. It 113 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: wasn't I guess so visible to people in the metropol, right, 114 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 2: and that's what made this kind of stand out to 115 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 2: them at the time. 116 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll get into it. Turkey tried real or 117 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire tried really hard to not have anyone 118 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,119 Speaker 1: know about it and to try and have it happen 119 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: like all the previous ones. 120 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're still trying. 121 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, they still refuse to admit that this happened. Hooray. 122 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 2: And they will cynically use the genocide of the indigenous 123 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: peoples of North America as a way as like a 124 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 2: hammer with which to bash the United States for when 125 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: it acknowledges or threatens to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, right, 126 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: Like I don't know if you've seen this, but they'll 127 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 2: be like, well, you guys compoint fingers because of what 128 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 2: you did to your indigenous peoples, which, yeah, that's bad too. 129 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 2: Two things can be bad. Multiple genocides cannot have occurred. 130 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 2: There's not a shield you can put up and to 131 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: excuse your own shitty behavior. 132 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: We should all acknowledge that stuff that seems like it's necessary, 133 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: even just from a pure like understanding how the world works, 134 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 1: Like even if you don't care about people, you know, 135 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: I mean a horrible. Whatever these things happened, stop pretending 136 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: like they didn't anyway, So let's talk about how it happened. 137 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: It was centralized and systematic. It was enacted in the 138 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: summer of nineteen fifteen during World War One. It started 139 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: furthest East, and then it moved its way westward, all 140 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: under the pretense of defeating this internal threat. Right, they 141 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: were like, oh, the Armenians, they are all going to 142 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: go join Russia, and a few thousand of them, did 143 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: you know. I also can't blame anyone who did, they 144 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: would still be whatever anyway. Yeah, I'm not going to 145 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: linger super long on the like gory details, but I'm 146 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,239 Speaker 1: going to do it more than I usually do because 147 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: usually I kind of am, like, and then some really 148 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: bad stuff happened, because I'm usually talking about stuff that 149 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: people kind of know about on some level. Right, But 150 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: just saying a million people died doesn't give you a 151 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: sense of what happened. And one of the main issues 152 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: about how the Armenian genocide is discussed is that it's 153 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: not People barely know shit about it. I only knew 154 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: the tiniest bit. I kind of knew the like a 155 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: bunch of people died level, right, yep. And of course 156 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: it started with, as we talked about last time, those 157 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: forced labor death camps for the conscriptable men. Right, everyone 158 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: who is conscripted into the army in World War One, 159 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: if you were Christian, they were like just kidding or 160 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: taking your guns away, and now you're gonna die. It 161 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: quickly expanded beyond that. That would be enough, right, that 162 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: would be one of the worst things that's happened. But 163 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: sometimes if a village was entirely Armenian soldiers and militias 164 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: would just show up, round everyone up, and then kill them. 165 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: In villages with mixed Christian and Muslim populations, they did 166 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: more of this exodus style thing. They'd start by rounding 167 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: up and arresting all of the men who hadn't been 168 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: conscripted into these labor death camps, anyone who was suspected 169 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: of being a leader or in any way might be 170 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: perceived as a threat to their power, right, and deal 171 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: with those people, And then they would announce to the 172 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: remaining Christians in the town that they were being deported 173 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: for their own good. And they did it all classic 174 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: write down an inventory of everything you're leaving behind, which 175 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: is everything by the way, you can't bring anything with you, 176 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: We'll make sure it's returned to you later. You know, 177 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: they wrote the receipts. 178 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, right. The bureaucracy of these things is just fucking 179 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 2: like a whole set of Kaman in Jerusalem thing. But yeah, 180 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 2: the cold, bureaucratic nature of genocide is pretty horrific to comprehend. 181 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the comparisons to the Nazis is just 182 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: direct they write themselves, but are worth pointing out still, 183 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And of course these receipts were alive. 184 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: People were forced to sign over the deeds to their 185 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: houses and lands, which is like such a like we're 186 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: the good guys, right, it's all legal. 187 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 2: Here's yeah, like what the fuck are you doing? You're 188 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: going to kill these people? Like do you really need 189 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 2: to do this too? 190 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: Yeah? And I bet a lot of it is to 191 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: like make people think that they're going to survive. 192 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, just you know, to prevent like I guess, rebellion 193 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 2: or like, yeah, I'm sure if you were going to 194 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: be genocided, you would act in a way that was different, 195 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: like right, for whatever reason. 196 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: And so they sign away their houses in their land 197 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: and then they're marched off into the desert, or they're 198 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: boarded onto trains or boats, and the people marching through 199 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: the desert. These are death marches. Anyone who acted up 200 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: was killed. They were denied food, they were denied water. 201 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: You weren't allowed to stop and drink from the springs 202 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: along the side of the road. Kurdish groups were allowed 203 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 1: to attack and rob the caravans. Young women were kidnapped 204 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: and forced to convert Islam. Young boys were taken as slaves, 205 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: often as shepherds, but the only men who survived were 206 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: the ones who escaped. An incredible number of people they 207 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: started coming out, and I think the seventies or eighties 208 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: there was this whole book about it. An incredible number 209 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: of people who were raised Turkish today have discovered recently 210 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: that at least one of their grandmothers was of Armenian 211 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: descent and forced to convert and lie about it her ethnicity. 212 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 2: Wow. 213 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: Sometimes Armenians were deported by train, forced to buy their 214 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: own tickets onto cattle cars, which is probably just another 215 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: way to be like, oh, yeah, no, you're you're going somewhere. 216 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: The dead were removed at each train stop and thrown 217 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: down in bankments, and they were taken to these outposts. 218 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: Then they were left to die, and if they didn't 219 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: die fast enough for the new arrivals, they were just killed. 220 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: It's like they're figuring it out as they go along 221 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: genocide right now. 222 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they haven't quite like perfected it in the 223 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 2: way that the Nazis had or industrial lives hit in 224 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 2: that way. 225 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah. Along the Black Sea, people were just 226 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: taken out onto boats and drowned. Children were put into 227 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: sacks and thrown overboard. Whole boats full full of people 228 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: were like taken out and sunk. Muslim leaders who fought 229 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: against this mass murder were replaced or executed. Muslims would 230 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: hide their Christian neighbors and if they were caught, both 231 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: the Muslims and the Christians would be executed. Victims were 232 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: forced to strip before they were killed, often before they 233 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: were deported at all, because it was against Sharia law 234 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: to strip clothes off of a corpse to sell life 235 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 1: insurance of the murder people was used to finance the 236 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: murder of others. They were packed into houses and they 237 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: were set alight. Others used as target practice for Turkish officers. 238 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: I wasn't joking that this is just going to be 239 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: dark for a moment. 240 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fucking litany of horrible shit. 241 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: A lot of Christians were crucified, often to their own 242 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: doors or barns. Often they were raped and impaled. I'm like, 243 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, not even telling me some of the worst shit. 244 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. I spent a long time thinking about 245 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: how I was going to talk about this, And we're 246 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: having this conversation a lot right now with what's going 247 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: on in Palestine right where there's like these arguments where 248 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: you don't need to see it or you do need 249 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: to see it, you know, and people make really good 250 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: cases on both sides. And I think where I'm at personally, 251 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: and this is maybe a gut instinct, is that, like 252 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: I think it is worth knowing and then not lingering on, 253 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: but like knowing. And that's like why when I engage 254 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: with like World War two stuff, I don't engage with 255 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: the details of the Holocaust stuff as much, right because 256 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: I faced it in whatever way, you know, I've read 257 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: about it, you know. 258 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I've like, when I think about my personal engagement, 259 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 2: I guess with genocidal violence. I've been part of I've 260 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 2: been a historian of the Spanish Civil War, I've seen 261 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: people uncover their grandparents and find their like shattered skulls 262 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: in the village they still live in. Yeah. I also 263 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 2: one of the things that impacted me most in recent 264 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 2: years that really just made like I've been a conflict 265 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 2: reporter for a while, I've seen really horrible shit. I've 266 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: heard stories of terrible things. And in twenty twenty, I 267 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: was in Rwanda and as COVID was all kicking off, 268 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: and like one of the last things I did for 269 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 2: everything shut down was go to the Genocide Museum in Kigali. Yeah, 270 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: and for whatever reason, like that is the most moving 271 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 2: museum exit that I've ever attended. And it wasn't like 272 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: the numbers and like there were vast numbers of people 273 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 2: killed in Rwanda. It was individual stories that really fucked 274 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 2: me up for a while. And I think like for 275 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 2: it and also just hearing from like they were wander 276 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 2: genocide wasn't that long ago. It was in our lifetimes 277 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: within probably lots of listeners life to known and ninety four, 278 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 2: you know, hearing from people who had been present. It's 279 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 2: sort of it's one thing as a historian, it's one 280 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 2: thing to see people uncovering their grandpa grandma or whatever, 281 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: non binary grandparent doesn't matter. But like it's different when 282 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: it's someone like you know, you can walk around Rowanda 283 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 2: and see where shit happened. I remember bike all around 284 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: the country and then to see how like in that country, 285 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 2: ethnicity in a meaningful sense does not exist today people 286 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 2: my I have young Rwandan friends who are in their 287 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: early twenties now who don't know which of those two 288 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: ethnicities would pertain to them because it's just not it's 289 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: not a relevant form of identity. This thing happened for 290 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: something that I mean, all all identities bigger than you know, 291 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: very small communities are made up. Doesn't mean they're not real. 292 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: But it just disappeared afterwards, and it disappeared for reasons 293 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: that aren't always great. Disappeared kind of due to the 294 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 2: full set of state. But to just be like this 295 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: thing fucking had people killing each other with knives and 296 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: fucking shovels and now it's gone, like it was completely false. 297 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: It profoundly moved me in a way I think about 298 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: like identity and the world. 299 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: No, it makes sense, and it makes sense about how 300 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: like it is worth sometimes to go and read the 301 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: specific stories of individuals you know, yeah, And I think 302 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: what I decided on for this episode, right is that 303 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: I'm not doing that. But I'm also not glossing over. 304 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: I want to be like, this is what happened pretty roughly. 305 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: I got a lot out of reading about it. I 306 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: got a lot of upsetness, you know. But I also 307 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: think it's like worth understanding what people are fighting against 308 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: and also just like I don't want people to like 309 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: panic or worry specifically, but it's like it's worth understanding 310 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: how bad the world could be, you know. 311 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it is. I think we should face up 312 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: to the realities of what it's I mean, I uh 313 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: Sin Syria last year spoken to a ZD people who 314 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: went through genocidal violence by the so God Islamic state, right, like, yeah, 315 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: things can be really fucking terrible and we shouldn't. You know, 316 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 2: it's very easy, especially now, right we have so much 317 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: stuff and so many things and so many disurrections. It'll 318 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: be okay, and like it probably will be right, I don't, 319 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: I don't, Yeah, totally, it probably will be fine. Yeah, 320 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: And that probably won't be you who faces genocidal violence. 321 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 2: If you're a person with a smartphone downloading a podcast well, right, 322 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 2: more people have smartphones electricity in their homes, Like smartphones 323 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: are very broadly distributed around the world, but probably won't 324 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 2: be you listener. It will probably be someone who you 325 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 2: see on the news. But it's still something that we 326 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: should face up to about the state, right, the state 327 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 2: is the only tool that can do this. Yeah, and 328 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: humanity more broadly. 329 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: That is actually an important point that I didn't talk 330 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: about too much, is that, like one of the reasons 331 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: that words like genocide exists because it's a state level 332 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: crime and the concept of the modern state is fairly new. 333 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that kingdoms didn't pull off stuff like this, 334 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: and that you know, diverse groups, decentralized groups. I've also 335 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: done some bad stuff, right, Yeah, but yeah, there's a scale. Yeah. 336 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: One account I read described the mass suicide where children 337 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: and teenagers would join hands and jump off cliffs together 338 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: to escape what was coming. And in order to do this, 339 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 1: more than thirty thousand felons were released from Turkish prisons 340 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: into the Special Organization, which was guerrilla fighters who were 341 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: at war against the Armenian civil population of the country. 342 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 2: It's not ready a war, it's just it's just murdering 343 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: people is what that is. 344 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like, what have we let out all the 345 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: murderers to do a bunch of murder? 346 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's that's how the state can 347 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 2: pretty fuck things up, I guess yep. Not dramatically different 348 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: to what's happening now in part of Syria. Sadly. Yeah, 349 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: like you relabeled Jahada's fighting, No, totally, I'm gonna throw 350 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 2: to ads without a clever thing. 351 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, here they are, here's ads. 352 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 2: And we're back. 353 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: I guess there is a line about how serious I 354 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: can feel where I can't do my cycle. Yeah, there 355 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: it is, we found it. Yeah, so this was happening, 356 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: and this happened during the summer of nineteen fifteen. As 357 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: we talked a little bit last time, the Kurdish tribes 358 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: are major participants in all of this, since for generations 359 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: they've been told the Armenians were the reason for their 360 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: own poverty. However, it is possible that the role of 361 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: the Kurds has been overstated to shift blame away from Turkey. 362 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: But that's people's speculation and there's no my guess is 363 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: is not all one way or the other. The Kurds 364 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: were absolutely involved in this Also, Turkey could absolutely be 365 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: overstating their responsibility. 366 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 2: I didn't think it hugely matters if you're responsible for 367 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 2: like thirty or forty percent of a genocide, like you 368 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: were still responsible. And the Kurdish groups that I'm familiar 369 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 2: with acknowledge their complicity and apologize for it, which is 370 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: again important. 371 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: That is the next paragraph I have. Sorry, no, no, 372 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: it's good. It is worth reiterating. 373 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 2: Coming in here with my fucking nerd shit. 374 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: To be clear, all modern Kurdish movements openly speak about 375 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: the Armenian genocide and admit the Kurdish role in it, 376 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: and speak about how Kurdish and Armenian liberation are inseparably linked. Well, 377 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: an awful lot of the groups I said all, but 378 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: I read a list and it was all of the 379 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: groups that I know about were on that list of 380 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: people who talk about it openly. 381 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd certainly like I have met seeing Armenian and 382 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: Assyrian units within the SDF. Yeah, right, so that like 383 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: autonomous can unities within the broader an s in North 384 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: and Easyria. 385 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: I feel like this makes me better understand to I 386 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: don't want to like totally fall into this nerd stuff 387 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: in case people don't know exactly what we're talking about. 388 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: But you know, when people talk about the Kurdish movement 389 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,959 Speaker 1: of you know, when people talk about Roshabam right and 390 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: the Northeast Syrian Autonomous movement that's going on. One of 391 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: the reasons that I'm under the impression I think, I know, 392 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: you know more about this that Kurdish folks talk about, 393 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: being like, this is not a Kurdish movement. We are 394 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: among these movements. This is a pluralistic movement. Even though 395 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: they're the ones who kind of spearheaded it. I assume 396 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: that this kind of stuff is part of the reason 397 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: that they're like real aware of not wanting to fall 398 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: into nationalism. 399 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, it's not an ethno nationalist movement. It's a 400 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 2: movement which is liberatory and the people it's trying to liberate, 401 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 2: if it has any one focus, are not the Kurds 402 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 2: per se, but women if they have a focus. Right, 403 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: But that's why they will use an e s in 404 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: pref to Rosjava, which just means west in Kurdish, right, 405 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 2: you have north, southeast and West Kurdistan. This is West Kurdistan. Yeah, 406 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: got my compass in my head. 407 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's an easier thing to say Roosevelt right 408 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: than oh, yay, the autonomous regions of Northeast Aria. 409 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yes, totally, and people understand what you mean. 410 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: But I think the problem that they have faced, and 411 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: then we'll get back to tour genocide chat is that 412 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 2: American media are incapable of understanding movements in the Middle 413 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 2: East without reference to ethnicity or without primarily referencing ethno nationalism. Right, 414 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 2: like the Uzidis a z d they are kind of 415 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 2: Kurdish but also distinct right, they're like they have been. 416 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 2: You have the Yebashi right, which is an a Zli 417 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 2: group within the broader Kurdish liberation movement. It's confounding for 418 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 2: people to write about. I have seen other journalists be like, well, 419 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 2: are they Curds? Are they not Curds? Like? Are they 420 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 2: you know? Like? And then well, you have two Kurdish groups, 421 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 2: you know, right next to each other who are in 422 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 2: conflict right now, Like the Frist is not the salient 423 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 2: determining right, it's their outlook. But totally especially with Kurds right, 424 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 2: who because they have been persecuted for who they are 425 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 2: by various states for a very long time, it's hard 426 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 2: for I think any frame of analysis it doesn't primarily 427 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 2: reverenced ethnicity to especially in the Western media, to. 428 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 1: Be used, no totally. And even when we're talking about 429 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: like the Armenian genocide, right, it's like, you know, we 430 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: talk about the Armenian genocide, and we talk about Asyrian genocide, 431 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: and we talk about the Greek genocide. Well mostly we 432 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: talk about their well mostly we don't talk about any 433 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, but like it's the fact that they're 434 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: Christian that is the in many ways, the relevant thing. 435 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: But that also doesn't quite get across. It's not because 436 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, you go to church on Sunday, 437 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: that's why we're mad, you know. Yeah, it's like much 438 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: more important about like cultural stuff that's going on. So 439 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that we don't know as much, well, 440 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: we know a fair amount about the Armenian genocide. One 441 00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,479 Speaker 1: of the reasons it's not talked about as much, right 442 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: is because the Burkish government with the Ottoman Empire was 443 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: interested in covering it up. And the way they covered 444 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: it up was to pretend it wasn't happening, especially while 445 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: it was happening. The goal was to not have the 446 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: West notice until it was done, no photos of it 447 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: were allowed. Photo development places were told to report anyone 448 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: who brought photos in of it. Wow. Passenger trains had 449 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: their windows blacked out so no one could see the 450 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: corpses lining the tracks. And the way they covered it 451 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: up was very orchestrated. First they would be like, no, 452 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 1: it's not happening. And then if it is happening, if 453 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: someone notices it is happening, it's because of the Armenian insurgency. 454 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: And they pretended that the deportation was humane and that 455 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: all property was inventoried, and they cared about the deportees. 456 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: Another thing they would do is they'd send two telegrams 457 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: with the orders, and one was a like real order, 458 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: like kill them all, and the other would be like 459 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: a pleasant fiction. Right, Oh, how was the deportation going? 460 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: Is everyone doing okay? After the order was followed, they 461 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: would destroy the real telegram and keep the fake one. Yeah, 462 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: and then they destroyed all the files about it. There's 463 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: this like rumor that there's a vault somewhere in a 464 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: Swiss bank with records of this whole thing. Who knows. 465 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 1: There is a lot of Like as the Ottoman Empire fell, 466 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: they got a lot of the rulers of it moved 467 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: a lot of like golden shit to Switzerland, right, So yeah, 468 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 1: but why would you keep records of agendocide? 469 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 2: I guess maybe you're really proud of it. 470 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. 471 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 2: States be weird. I've found some stuff in archives. You're like, 472 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 2: why do you write this down? Yeah? 473 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: Totally? 474 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 2: What are you doing here? Bro? 475 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: Yeah? Where's their security culture? I guess when you're like 476 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: the state level actor, you don't have security culture because 477 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: you think you were the top. 478 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, and you don't realize it. Well, I mean, 479 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 2: what do I do? I try a snoky history book 480 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 2: about how they're all pieces of shit, like it didn't 481 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 2: stop them, did it? Like doesn't effect then they're all dead? 482 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: Yeah? 483 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I guess you can get Franco exhumed and 484 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 2: fly his body across the country. That was kind of funny. 485 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: One of the groups that worked hardest to bring attention 486 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: to the Armenian genocide while it was happening was in 487 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: this part's like funny, funny is the wrong word? The 488 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: American Protestant missionaries. Can you guess who the American Christians 489 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: were there to proselytize too? 490 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: The Muslims. No, they try to convert the Armenians to 491 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 2: like plus one Christians, like unorthodox Christians. 492 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: I mean, they weren't trying to convert them to Christianity, period, 493 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: because that's how American protestant Ism writ large. Yeah, you know, 494 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: obviously there's Protestant is a very diverse ideological and theological framework. Yeah, 495 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: the Protestant missionaries were over there to convert the world's 496 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: oldest Christian nation to Christianity. 497 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: Yes, we love to see it. 498 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, the literally got our Christianity directly from one of Jesus' apostles. 499 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: Armenians weren't Christian enough for them. 500 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 2: Perfect. 501 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: But while they were there, America hadn't entered the war yet, 502 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: and the Ottoman Empire didn't like really want America to 503 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: enter the war on the side of kill the Ottoman Empire. 504 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, makes sense. 505 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: And actually later the US never declared war on the 506 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire. So these are some of the only protected 507 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,479 Speaker 1: Christians in the country, and so they're working really really 508 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: hard to try and bring attention to this and care 509 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: for people. 510 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 2: Cool. 511 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: The other protected Christian group that was there were their 512 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: German allies, oh dear, mostly the German allies did not 513 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: work to save all of the Armenians. Some were basically 514 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: taking notes like, oh, you can just kill them all. 515 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: But many German soldiers wound up being some of the 516 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: loudest advocates for recognition of the genocide and provided hundreds 517 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: and hundreds of pages of evidence. 518 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 2: So yeah, okay, they say, came right in the end, 519 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: this is post World War two, like they no, oh, okay, 520 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 2: no post World War one, right, okay, So like, because 521 00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: that's the thing is like the German allies in the 522 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 2: eye him An Empire weren't Nazis, you know, No, they 523 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: were mony kids. 524 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, or fucking conscripts, you know, like yeah, yeah, I'm 525 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: guessing they like I'm mentioning who Germany would have sent 526 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: to the Ottoman Empire at that time, you know, like 527 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: probably not. 528 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 2: It's like fighting troops. 529 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there's some rank and file soldiers 530 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: on the Southern Front of the war. I only know 531 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: a little bit about the Southern Front of the First 532 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: World War, but. 533 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a an area I don't know a 534 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 2: lot about either. 535 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: So all of these folks collected evidence, evidence that was needed. 536 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,479 Speaker 1: Because Turkey still denies his mascot of this day. And 537 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: now we've covered the Armenian genocide, and I don't want 538 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: to be like and now it's done, but like, you 539 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: know whatever, Now you know what happened. Now I get 540 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: to talk about the cool people. I want to talk 541 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 1: about the Armenian man who took out the guy most 542 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: directly responsible for the genocide. He was a small, nervous, 543 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: epileptic man who was driven by visions to do what 544 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: needed to be done, a man named Soghom until her 545 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: Sokomantelerian was born in Anatolia in eighteen ninety six in 546 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: a small peaceful village. Although it's like, oh, peaceful village, 547 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: but it gets compared a lot to the wild West. 548 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: This like rural Ottoman area. Right, violence can pop off 549 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: wherever bandits are everywhere. It is a rough time to 550 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: be an Armenian peasant. 551 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 2: But you know, just a place where the state doesn't 552 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 2: ye have like the monopoly on violence, right, Like people 553 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 2: are just violencing left, right, center, right. 554 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: Instead they're wielding the nomadic war machine with which to 555 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: enact their violence. 556 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 557 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: His father emigrated to Serbia during the eighteen nineties because 558 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: of extreme poverty and to hope to send money home 559 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: to his family. Because of the war and the genocide, 560 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: he never made it home again, which is the reason 561 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: he's the family member who survives this story. Mom moved 562 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: the family to a bigger town of like twenty six 563 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: thousand people. You know, I would have been like, that's 564 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: a tiny town, except now where I live, Like, that's 565 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: like way bigger than the big town that's near my 566 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: tiny town, you know. 567 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, Metropolis. 568 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's probably like three Walmarts there, you know, yeah, definitely. 569 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 2: Back in the eighteen nineties, a Turkey did love a Walmart. 570 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. In nineteen thirteen, newly an adult 571 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: Sokolman emigrated to Serbia to join his father. When he 572 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: heard Russia might invade the Ottomans, he was like, oh 573 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: fuck yeah, sign me up, nice, I want to invade 574 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: the Ottomans yet them. He's ready to grow yeah, and 575 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: his dad is like, no, you really shouldn't. He goes 576 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: on a train for twenty four hours to Bulgaria and 577 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: eventually he gets his dad's he's I think he might 578 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: even be seventeen or maybe eighteen, is actually a minor. 579 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: At this point, he needs his dad's permission to sign 580 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: up for the Russian military, which is like surprising to me. 581 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, that is given him the general state 582 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 2: of the Russian military. 583 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, he has to talk his dad 584 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: into it. His dad's not excited about it. He goes 585 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: to Bulgaria and then he goes to Georgia for training, 586 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: and his commander was this Armenian who had probably been 587 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: an assassin for the ARF back in the day, but 588 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: then he had split with the ARF when they'd backed 589 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: the young Turks. So basically their commander was cool and right, Yeah. 590 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 2: He seems to have already made all the good choices. Yeah. 591 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: There in Georgia, Tillerian met older ARF fighters and was 592 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: part of this like youthful revolutionary scene, and he writes 593 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: a lot in his journal about how he is like 594 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: madly in love with this woman and but you know, 595 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: they all have to be chased for the revolution and 596 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: shit like that, right, and they get to feel like 597 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: heroes when they're on the train off to the front 598 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: as Armenian refugees wave handkerchiefs and cheers they go off 599 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: to go fight. And I don't want to even be 600 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: cynical about that, because, like I mean, that's true, Like 601 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: they were heroes in this in this context, right. 602 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I think about like I have friends in 603 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: the PDF and me Emma who are fighting the Tamadola junta. Right, Yeah. 604 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 2: When they go through villages where they come back, they're like, yeah, 605 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 2: everyone look lines of roads and clap to them. Or 606 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 2: when they like liberate villages, you know if one lines 607 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: are road and claps to them, because yeah, they're the people. 608 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: They're the only people doing something. 609 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're fighting and dying. 610 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, they are definitely doing both those things. 611 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. He started off as an unarmed medical orderly. The 612 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: Southern Front of World War One was decades behind the 613 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: Western Front technologically because there wasn't the road infrastructure for vehicles. 614 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: Artillery had to be drawn by horse cart. There's no planes, 615 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: no tanks. The Ottomans had fled and so they're basically 616 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: fighting against Kurdish tribes who are fighting the invading Russians. 617 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: Because why support people if you're the Ottoman Empire when 618 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: you can make them do all the dying for you. 619 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: My cynicism is whatever, Speaking of cynicism, here's an ad 620 00:31:53,720 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: break and we're back. And of course the Russian army 621 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: was also fucked up in murdering people and being evil 622 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: because it's an army. 623 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 624 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: But as they advance, Tellurian starts seeing the bodies of 625 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: Armenian civilians everywhere. The genocide was decentralized and there's just 626 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: corpses scattered around everywhere. And he's an odd fellow for 627 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: a soldier, right. He's like prone to seizures and passing 628 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: out during times of heightened stress, which includes like being 629 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: in a war and also seeing your entire people murdered. 630 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: At one point, he actually passes out in the middle 631 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: of a firefight. 632 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 633 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,479 Speaker 1: And then there's this part of his life that I 634 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: want to know more about. He starts running across orphans everywhere. 635 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: Most of the survivors of the genocide were children, and 636 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: so there are these gangs of orphans roaming around, begging 637 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: and stealing and avoiding adults. And he makes it his 638 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: purpose in life to rescue as many of them as possible. 639 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: It's became his life mission. And I don't know as 640 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: much about it because he's most famous for being an assassin, 641 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: but he rescued every orphan he could constantly. When he 642 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: wrote about it in his journal, he would talk about 643 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: how he was like, Okay, when they're awake, they run 644 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: away from all the adults, so you got to catch 645 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: him at like dawn when they sleep in the following places. 646 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: And it's like kind of written as if he's like hunting, 647 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: but he's I mean, he's not right, you know. 648 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, he's trying to get these kids out of 649 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: Where do they go? Where do they get rescued? 650 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: That's what I don't know. Okay, that's what I'm frustrated 651 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: by not knowing. Someone must know. But what I have 652 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: read mostly didn't talk about this part of his life. 653 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: But I'm very interested in it, and I don't know. 654 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah. 655 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: Interesting, It like kind of implies that he just has 656 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: this gaggle that's following him. 657 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 2: Amazing. It's like a child army. 658 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know he's like a medical orderly, right, 659 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: so he's not like, hey, kids, run this grenade up 660 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: to the front, you know, right. 661 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 2: They can be putting on bandages or yeah, vibing back 662 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 2: there at the field hospital. Yeah, and people do that 663 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 2: with dogs. I seem some yeah, some units really just 664 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 2: accruing dogs. 665 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: That makes sense to me. That would absolutely be me. 666 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that would be me too. Yeah, There's one 667 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 2: unit in Memma that I have this giant plush teddy 668 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 2: bear like four to five feet off the ground. They 669 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 2: dragged around with them for a while, like they would 670 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 2: send me videos of their firefights. You know, they just 671 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 2: put it in a chair. It would just be like 672 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: like it was spectating at the whole thing. 673 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: I suspect that adding some level of surrealism is a 674 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: useful way to make your way through a war. 675 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can see that, allowing yourself to like maybe 676 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 2: dissociate or like yeah, just make yeah, like everything's strange 677 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:40,479 Speaker 2: right now. 678 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: You know. 679 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 2: It seemed to be very good at that in Burma, 680 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 2: like what the fuck is happening? People do a lot. 681 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 2: You see it a lot among the gis, whether it's 682 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: people like listening to Katie Perry or something. Well, they're like, yeah, 683 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 2: you know out there calling in air support whatever it is, 684 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 2: Like I've I've noticed it. It's a yeah, it is 685 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 2: a way to get through things for sure. 686 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. And so eventually he comes to his own former house. 687 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: It's long since abandoned. It's now a barracks for Russian soldiers. 688 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: He basically comes up and he's like, hey, can I 689 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: like go in there? That's my house. And the guy's like, 690 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: fuck really, and like gives him a cigarette, you know, 691 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: oh great, and he goes and he passes out in 692 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: his childhood garden. And this is what at least when 693 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: he started having visions. It might be when he started 694 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: being epileptic and fainting, but I don't know. 695 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like if he was epileptic and they knew, 696 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 2: there would be some kind of disqualifying factor for service, 697 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 2: but maybe not, I don't know. Maybe that's why he 698 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 2: was a medical ordlyan, not a you know, the machine gunner. 699 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. 700 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 701 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: And then by the time he's in and this is happening, 702 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: they just need everyone and he's there, you know, totally. 703 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's there, and he's doing his thing anyway. Yeah, 704 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 2: and he's clearly capable of continuing to do it, seems like. 705 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: And so he lays down in his childhood garden and 706 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: he has a vision about his brother being there, come 707 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: from Serbia to try and find their family. And he 708 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: wakes up and he's like staggering around his old neighborhood, 709 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: going to his old neighbors' houses and stuff like that, 710 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: and it's this transformative experience in his life, and in 711 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: one of these visions he sees Talat Pasha, the orchestrator 712 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: of all of this. The minister raised his hand and 713 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: Tillaryan cut it off, and this he believed was divine revelation, 714 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: and I'm not in any position to tell him he's wrong. 715 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: He also started having vivid dreams of his family giving 716 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: him advice and lessons and also being like pretty constantly, 717 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: his mom would be like, you kill that fucking guy. 718 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: Yet you know it's up. You know you're alive to 719 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: do this thing, right, It's maternal love for you. 720 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 721 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, in nineteen sixteen, shit somehow got even worse for 722 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: the survivors because the Brits abandoned their plan of conquering Constantinople, 723 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,479 Speaker 1: and so the Armenians knew that they would just keep 724 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: being murder until the war was over. Bizarre, for his part, 725 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: stopped promising an autonomous Armenia, and as Armenians started to 726 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: try and resettle reclaim towns, they still faced hell. Then 727 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventeen, Veteran of the Pod I almost in 728 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: front of the pod, but it's too complicated to say 729 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: that Veteran of the Pod the Russian revolution hits the world. 730 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: Russia signs a peace agreement with the Ottoman Empire, and 731 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: the Armenians are now on their own. In February nineteen eighteen, 732 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 1: the Armenians fought like fucking hell to defend their reclaimed 733 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: territory against the Ottomans, which bought time for the exodus 734 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: of the civilians. This moment alone, I would watch a 735 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: ten part mini series about. Yeah, you know, the exodus 736 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,280 Speaker 1: did not go great for people. I mean it saved 737 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people's lives. A lot of people froze 738 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: to death or were cut down by Kurdish forces. There's 739 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 1: like they just like find officers like frozen in their boots, 740 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: you know, in the mountains and stuff. 741 00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 2: Yea. 742 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 1: When the Bolsheviks true and formally left the war, they 743 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: agreed to quote utilize every available means to disperse and 744 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: destroy the Armenian bands operating in Russia and the occupied 745 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:09,760 Speaker 1: provinces of Turkey. 746 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 2: That was nice of them, Yeah, real, real solidarity kind 747 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,240 Speaker 2: of shit that you love to see. 748 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: Never a good idea to side with the Bolsheviks, even 749 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: as a Bolshevik. 750 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,839 Speaker 2: Yeah no, yeah, yeah, yeah, they will kill you two. 751 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, once again, the Armenians had fought alongside to 752 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 1: suppose an ally, only to have the ally turn on them. 753 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: Don't worry, that's going to happen at least two more 754 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: times in the very near future. Oh good, good, Tillerian 755 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: and the other Armenian soldiers, they stayed to fight and 756 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: defend this exodus. Right, twelve hundred Armenian soldiers held off 757 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand Turks. 758 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 2: Wow. 759 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: Tillerian took a severe wound to his right arm in 760 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: the fighting and was out of the fight and was 761 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: like transported. 762 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:51,240 Speaker 2: To a hospital. 763 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighteen, the Christian nations of Georgia and Armenia 764 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: joined the Muslim nation of Azerbaijan to form a new country, Transcaucasia. 765 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 1: This didn't last. If you're like al Comino, there's there's 766 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: not a country called that on the map. Somewhere there's 767 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 1: a white trans people joking here that you shouldn't make 768 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: it be wrong. 769 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's not presenting itself. Really. 770 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. They all had their own interests and they were 771 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: all scrambling. Turkey captured Armenia. Azerbai John helped them do it. 772 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: Yet another former ally now attacking Armenia. 773 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 2: Like right now, currently as you listen to this podcast. Yes, 774 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,720 Speaker 2: but also in the story. 775 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, yep, yep. 776 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. History is great, kids, because we learned from it 777 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 2: and we change, we make things better. 778 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:40,839 Speaker 1: I'm like more and more. I know it's because it's 779 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: like what I do for a living, but I am 780 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: like more and more convinced that we genuinely actually need 781 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: to better understand the history. 782 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 2: No. Yeah, no, that is a thing that's true. 783 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: Yeah. So Tillurian, as fellow soldiers are trying to fight 784 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: off two armies that are invading some Armenian vets, gather 785 00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: in London and they join the Allied forces still fighting 786 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: in the sun in Front. But that didn't go well, 787 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: and Tillarian was not among them. And then World War 788 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: One ended Britain one Constantinople became a safe enough place 789 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: for former enemy combatants like Tillurian, so he went there. 790 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,959 Speaker 1: The young Turks are out of power. Peacetime was hard 791 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: on Tellurian. War had probably been harder, I'm gonna be 792 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: honest about that. Yeah, but he felt like he was 793 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,360 Speaker 1: crazy because everyone around him were trying to act like 794 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: they hadn't survived a genocide. He was twenty two. 795 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 2: At this point. Oh wow, houck, he's young. 796 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 1: He had spent four years in Hell. Yeah, and he'd 797 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: been taking his time during that time. He had rescued orphans, 798 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: he had buried corpses, he had fought, he had nearly died. 799 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 1: He had no idea if his family was alive or not. 800 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: He left a notice with the Arf newspaper looking for 801 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: his family. Meanwhile, the Cup the Young Turks, their whole 802 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: leadership had resigned and they escaped done a German torpedo boat, 803 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: like at the last minute. It's a lot Pasha, Jamal 804 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,280 Speaker 1: Pasha and Enver Pasha and a ton of other mass murderers. 805 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: They'd split up, some to Berlin, some to Moscow, some 806 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: to Rome, but no one was sure where they'd gone. 807 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: A lot of the Young Turk leadership was tried in 808 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: absentia and sentenced to death, but most of them weren't 809 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: around to be killed. Some of them were executed, but 810 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: the big leaders of the genocide got the fuck out 811 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: of town. This is not a peaceful time to be 812 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 1: in the city. It's clearly more peaceful than it just 813 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,240 Speaker 1: like had been during the war, right right, But things 814 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: are spicy. No one knows who's in charge. Greece declared 815 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 1: that all Greek Christians and Constantinople were independent of the 816 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 1: Saltan's rule. 817 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that for them, it as your responsibilities. 818 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I kind of I kind of like it 819 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: because like one of the whole things that people use, 820 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 1: like like anti Catholic stuff in the United States from 821 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: like two hundred years ago was always about our like 822 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: divided loyalty and how you know, Rome was going to 823 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: tell all the Catholics what to do or whatever. Yeah, 824 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 1: and like, okay, here's a time where that was sort 825 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: of true. 826 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 2: You know. 827 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't the pope, right because it's Greek Orthodox, 828 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 1: but right, you know, yeah. 829 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 2: There, whatever, it is a prelate. 830 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: Just I'm slowly learning all this shit. 831 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not goot out the ship to learn. 832 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 1: The city was divided up and ruled by Britain, Italy, France, 833 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,799 Speaker 1: and Greece. Everyone sent troops to try and claim a 834 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: piece of the Ottoman Empire. This is like the fucking 835 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 1: prize of World War One, you know. Yeah. 836 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, the old Man of Europe. 837 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, the sick Man of Europe. 838 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 2: Sick Man of Europe. That's it. 839 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, my bad, No, No, it's like I mean it might 840 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 1: have been the old Man too, but I remember reading 841 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: specifically that I think it was the Czar who called 842 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: him the sick man of Europe. 843 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, the sick man of Europe. 844 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is cool and good that when you imagine 845 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,840 Speaker 1: that there's a sick man in your family, everyone is 846 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: just plotting how to rob him. 847 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 2: He's just gonna well, to be fair, if you're the 848 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,879 Speaker 2: czar and someone older than you and your family is dead, 849 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 2: all you're thinking about is like the ship that you're 850 00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 2: going to get when he. 851 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 1: Dies, Like, yeah, fair enough. 852 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,360 Speaker 2: This is how Aristos relate to each other and it 853 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 2: it's why they're incapable of normal human empathy and interaction. 854 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 2: Every success, they have hinges on people they love dying. 855 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that makes sense. And then the way that 856 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: the sultans would end up, like once a sultan gets 857 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: into power, they like kill most of their family that. 858 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 2: Yeah they know they Yeah we really, we really set 859 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:22,839 Speaker 2: them up to do psycho shit. 860 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,279 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. I almost got into like a lot of 861 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 1: how that, like the power worked in the Ottoman Empire 862 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: and stuff, and then I was like it's not central enough, 863 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: and I I'm not trying to do orientalism about. 864 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it's not like Britain does this stick too, right, Yeah, 865 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,880 Speaker 2: all sausage pans are just coming into a power when 866 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,359 Speaker 2: he's like eighty something and half dead. 867 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so everyone's trying to get a piece of the 868 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: Ottoman empire. Tillian had contact with the larger Armenian revolutionary 869 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: movement through a woman from that Marxist party that had 870 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: used to be mad at the arf. After the genocide, 871 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,560 Speaker 1: no one had the stomach for in fighting one of 872 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 1: the like rare moments of left or radical unity, you know. 873 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:07,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 874 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: Through her and through the general Armenian community, he learned 875 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: that the murderers had escaped and were hiding out. He 876 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,279 Speaker 1: also learned that in that very neighborhood there was a 877 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: collaborator and Armenian who had compiled a list of names 878 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: for the Turks and was like alive and living large 879 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 1: a couple blocks away. So Tilarian was like, well, you know, 880 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure that guy will never do it again, and 881 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 1: then lived a quiet and peaceful life as a coffee importer. 882 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 2: I fancy that's maybe not true. 883 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,720 Speaker 1: No wait, no, the quiet, peaceful life is a coffee 884 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: importer is going to come after a bunch of murder. 885 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: Uh Tilarian did not waste time. Everyone was complaining about 886 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,239 Speaker 1: the collaborator, but no one would do anything about it. 887 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: This is the thing that was making him feel fucking crazy, 888 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, so we started hanging out near the 889 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: guy's house. He waited for the collaborator to be hanging 890 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,319 Speaker 1: out near a window. One evening, he was giving a 891 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,880 Speaker 1: toast to his guests and then he had a big mental. 892 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:00,719 Speaker 1: We have his journ roles, is why we know a 893 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,280 Speaker 1: lot of what he was thinking of these various times 894 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 1: he was like, should I shoot him in the head 895 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: or the chest? I'm not talking about current events here. 896 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: I'm not talk here about current events here. 897 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 2: Just go right, bast it. 898 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 1: This soldier with battle experience shot the man in the 899 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:20,920 Speaker 1: chest and aimed center mass and then fled the scene. 900 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 2: How'd that go for him? 901 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 1: It went great? 902 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 2: Okay? Yeah. 903 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: His Marxist friend found him at his apartment and shook 904 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: his hand and said, I congratulate you, my brother, because 905 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: he gets home and he's like, I didn't see him die. 906 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,240 Speaker 1: I fucked up. I should have gone for the head shot. 907 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,879 Speaker 1: The fuck am I doing? I'm a failure. My mother 908 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 1: will never forgive me. I don't know if he went 909 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: that far. She comes in and she's not the mother. 910 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 1: The friend, the Marxist revolutionary comes and says, I congratulate you, 911 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: my brother, and informed him that his target was dying 912 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,440 Speaker 1: in the hospital. And just like that, to Larian was 913 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,759 Speaker 1: a hero. He was not one whom people could really 914 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: shout about from the rooftops, but everyone in the Armenian 915 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: community was like, there's our guy. 916 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is our dude now. 917 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: And then he was like, well, that's not enough. I'm 918 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: a pretty cool person. What if I do even more 919 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 1: cool stuff? And the cool stuff he's gonna do spoiler 920 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,880 Speaker 1: alert become a coffee importer. That's not the that's not 921 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 1: the party's famous for. We're gonna talk about it on Wednesday. 922 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: It is a cool thing to do, though. I like coffee, 923 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: I know. 924 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:30,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, if you're financing justice for Joe us not justice, 925 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 2: I suppose more like revenge. 926 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 1: He has a pretty like happily ever after story. 927 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:37,600 Speaker 2: Okay, now I'm excited. 928 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,360 Speaker 1: This is like one of the most happily ever after 929 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: hero people on this show I've ever talked about. And 930 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,319 Speaker 1: if you want to hear that, you have to wait 931 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,279 Speaker 1: till Wednesday. Well not you, James, you have to wait 932 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,719 Speaker 1: about fifteen minutes. Okay, sick. But first, if people want 933 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: to hear more from you, where can they do it? Yeah? 934 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,359 Speaker 2: All over the internet at the moment. I'm talking about 935 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 2: about the Olympics at the minute because they are happening. 936 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,800 Speaker 2: And I wrote a book about the anti fascist Popular 937 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 2: Olympics which happened in nineteen thirty six. Anti fascist Populalympics. Good, 938 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,720 Speaker 2: regular iOS, Olympics Bad. That's the short version of my book. 939 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 2: For the longer version, you can find it on the 940 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:15,640 Speaker 2: internet or i'd a libry. I'd love you to go 941 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,439 Speaker 2: to your library and ask them to get the book 942 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:19,560 Speaker 2: and then lots of people can read it and you 943 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 2: don't have to part with your money. It's called the 944 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 2: Popular Front and the nineteen thirty six barcel In Olympics. 945 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 2: It's written by me, James Stout. They can listen to 946 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,959 Speaker 2: it could happen here. Another podcast on the Carl Zone 947 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,360 Speaker 2: Media network where we talk about all kinds of news 948 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,720 Speaker 2: and current affairs, where I am currently writing about Turkey 949 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,040 Speaker 2: and its actions in Kurdistan. So if you're down on 950 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,959 Speaker 2: Turkey and I'm sorry, but there's going to be more 951 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 2: on the Turkey front that will be out in a 952 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,799 Speaker 2: couple of weeks, I hope, And yeah, I think that's 953 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 2: where I have Twitter James Stout, and I have a 954 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 2: website James Stout dot net, which has all kinds of 955 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:57,280 Speaker 2: things I've written in the past. 956 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 1: Nice if you want to hear more from me, I 957 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,760 Speaker 1: write every Wednesday on Substack. Half of the posts are free. 958 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,279 Speaker 1: If it's like a more important thing I'm saying to 959 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 1: the world or whatever, it'll be free. And then if 960 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 1: it's slightly more personal, you can pay me if you 961 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 1: want to read my memoir stuff. And I also do 962 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,920 Speaker 1: an individual and community preparedness podcast or Live Like the 963 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 1: World Is Dying. You can hear James on some of 964 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,880 Speaker 1: the episodes. I have a book that is currently in 965 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: pre order called The Sapling Cage, and you can get 966 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,000 Speaker 1: it wherever you get books, but instead you should get 967 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 1: it from Firestorm Well, if you're in the US, you 968 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: should get it from Firestorm Books. It's a cooperative run publisher. 969 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,200 Speaker 1: I swear I know how to use words based in Ashville, 970 00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,000 Speaker 1: North Carolina, and if you order it from them for 971 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: your pre order, it'll come signed. 972 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:43,359 Speaker 2: Nice. 973 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,880 Speaker 1: It comes out in September. I'm excited for people to 974 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,400 Speaker 1: read it. I think you'll enjoy it. If you don't, 975 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,760 Speaker 1: don't tell me. I don't care. Take care of yourselves 976 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:59,279 Speaker 1: and we'll see you on Wednesday. Cool People Who Did 977 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,319 Speaker 1: Cool Stuff is production of cool Zone Media. For more 978 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,400 Speaker 1: podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website foolzonmedia dot com, 979 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,640 Speaker 1: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 980 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts