1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World. I have been reading 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: Daniel Silva's books for many years. I'm a huge fan 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: of his writing. I was delighted to read his latest novel, 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: the twenty fifth and the Gabriel Alon series, called An 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: Inside Job. I think of as a personal friend. He's 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: a remarkable human being, a great newsman, a great novelist, 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: someone who should actually write a book about restaurants to 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: go to in Rome and other major cities. And he's 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: married to a wonderful woman who's a great reporter in 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: her own right. I'm thrilled he will take time to 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: talk to me and join me about his latest novel 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: and frankly talk some about my favorite art restorer and 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: legendary spy, Gabriel Alon. So I am really pleased to 14 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: welcome my guest, number one New York Times bestselling novelist, 15 00:00:51,920 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: Daniel Silva. Daniel, welcome, and thank you for joining me 16 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: again a new chorldy. 17 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: It is such a pleasure to be back with you, 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: so good to hear your voice. 19 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: I have to confess, when An Inside Job came out, 20 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: your twenty fifth novel featuring Gabriel Alon, I read it 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: within twenty four hours and then thought, oh my god, 22 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: I have to wait another year, so we have to 23 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: talk at some point about speeding up this process. Gabriel 24 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: Alana such a vivid and remarkable character. How did you 25 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: come up with him? 26 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: He was a combination of a typical character construction process 27 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: with a little bit of serendipity and good fortune. When 28 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: I created him, I knew his professional and personal backstory, 29 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: at least a part of it as I was building him. 30 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: In constructing him, my wife Jamie and I were strolled 31 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: through Georgetown one day and she reminds me, don't forget 32 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: we have dinner with David Boll tonight. Who is David Bull. 33 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: David Bull is truly was? He passed away this winter. 34 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: Sadly was one of the world's finest art restores, and 35 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: he lived around the corner from us in Georgetown, worked 36 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: at the National Gallery. And I stopped on my tracks 37 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: and I said, that's it. Dabriel Lawn's cover job is 38 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 2: that he's an art restore. And had dinner with David 39 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: that evening. I pulled him aside at dinner and I said, listen, 40 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 2: you know, I have this crazy idea I'd like to 41 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 2: turn an Israeli assassin into an Italian art restore. Can 42 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: you help me do that? And he said, absolutely, we 43 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: can do that, And so we went into the restoration 44 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,399 Speaker 2: lab at the National Gallery of Art a few days later, 45 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 2: and I started studying the craft of restoration with David 46 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: and the other restorers there. And the more I learned 47 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 2: about restoration, the more it seemed to me to have many, 48 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: many things in common hate to use this word, but 49 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 2: with the craft of assassination and targeted killings. And when 50 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 2: I wrote that first book, I structured it as though 51 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: the operation that Gabriel was involved in it was a 52 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 2: restoration rather than an assassination. And look, it has wonderful 53 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: metaphoric possibilities that I am able to use in the stories. 54 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: It gives him a beautiful sense of vision. You know, 55 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: I often say he has the best pair of eyes 56 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 2: in the business. I love writing a scene through Gabriel's 57 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 2: eyes because of the way he sees things. That just 58 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: makes him a remarkable character. And one of the things 59 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: that we've learned about Gabriel Lawn is that, like most 60 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 2: very very skilled restorers, he can forge paintings. And he 61 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: forges a painting. 62 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: In this novel, you got an Israeli assassin art restorer. 63 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: To what degree was the initial novel and the initial 64 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: sense of how he would operate shaped by the Israeli 65 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: campaign after the Munich massacre of Israeli mmpige athletes. 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: That was in his backstory, you know, And so that 67 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 2: was when he came on the page. It was roughly 68 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine, and he had been out I call 69 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: it the office, but that's the way they refer to it. 70 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: But let's say he left the Masade in around nineteen ninety, 71 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 2: so he'd been out of the Mosad for ten years 72 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 2: at that point, and he'd suffered a terrible tragedy. A 73 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 2: PLO terrorist mastermind had planted a bomb beneath his car 74 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 2: and killed his son and maimed his wife. And he'd 75 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: been out of the Masad for ten years at that point. 76 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 2: But look, he was part of what, for lack of 77 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: a better word, the hit team, the team of operatives 78 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: that was assembled in the autumn of nineteen seventy two 79 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: did go out and hunt down and eliminate the perpetrators 80 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 2: of the Meanocalympics massacre. He was chosen for that team 81 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: because he had the right personality, the right set of skills, 82 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: and he spoke perfect German. His parents were German. German 83 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 2: was the first language that he ever heard and lured 84 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: it is his first language. He could pass as a European. 85 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 2: I mean, so he was perfect for what they had 86 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: in mind, because most of the operation did take place 87 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: in Europe. 88 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: As anomalist, you are, in a sense, creating your own universe. 89 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: At what point did it occur to you that his 90 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: mother would be an artist? 91 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: You know, I can't recall when I made that decision. 92 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: Gabriel's relationship with his mother is incredibly complicated by the 93 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 2: fact that she was a survivor of Berkenau and was obviously, 94 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 2: like everyone who came through that experience, was scarred by it. 95 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 2: And I don't think it's wrong to say that she 96 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: was sort of a wreck of a person after that, 97 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: and we call it second generation Holocaust survivor syndrome. Gabriel 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: clearly suffers from that. These people who survived the death 99 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: camps and saw what they saw, they weren't always the 100 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 2: best parent after that. Through those fault of their own, 101 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: they carried the scars of what they had experienced and 102 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: what they had seen. It made them very emotionally fragile 103 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 2: and made them, in the case of Gabriel's mother, not 104 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: able to really show affection toward her only child because 105 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: she was afraid that he was going to be taken 106 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 2: away from her. So he had a very fraught and 107 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,559 Speaker 2: difficult relationship with his mother. And he also revered her 108 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 2: because she was an incredibly talented artist, and that's where 109 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: he learned. He learned lying at her feet, and her 110 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: father was an artist. As I say in this novel 111 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: that Gabriel Lahan was born with a paintbrush in his hand, 112 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: and so it's a fascinating part of his character. But 113 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 2: I'm telling you that it's very real for that generation 114 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: of Israelis. These housing estates in early Israel were filled 115 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 2: with people from the displacement camps. These were not happy places. 116 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: As I've written before, that candles burned all the time. 117 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: In Gabriel's home for all of the relatives that he lost. 118 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: His mother was a wreck. At night, he could hear 119 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: the screaming of people battling their demons in this settlement 120 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 2: where he lived. It not easy, not an easy childhood. 121 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: You've now had twenty five novels, and an inside Job 122 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: is the twenty fifth and it is superb. It's exactly 123 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: qualitatively what I would expect from you, which means it 124 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: brilliantly written. 125 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: To me. 126 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: You're an amazing writer, and it captures you into an 127 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: interesting story from a unique angle. But in a way, 128 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: you've created a world in a biography. Right. Has this 129 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: just evolved over time or was it Nason in the 130 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: back of your head from the very beginning. 131 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: I just took it one book at a time, and 132 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 2: it accumulates, and you pick up a character here that 133 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: you fall in love with, and you pick up a 134 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: character there, and if you get to the third book, 135 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: and I write a book called The Confessor, And he 136 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: stumbles into this very close relationship with the Vatican. He 137 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 2: ends up restoring paintings for the Vatican. He serves as 138 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: sort of an unofficial security consultant for the Vatican, and 139 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: he works with the Vatican in helping to repair the 140 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: strained relationship between Christianity and Judaism. In that regard, he 141 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: and I are sort of on the same mission. 142 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: You've moved from place to place. I mean, now, a 143 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: great part of Gabriel's life is in Venice. What led 144 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: you to pick Venice? 145 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 2: It's sort of where I found Gabriel. I mean earlier 146 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: books like The Confessor was set largely in Venice, or 147 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 2: a big portion of it was in Venice. A number 148 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 2: of books have a strong Venice component. So what is 149 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 2: Gabriel's connection to Venice. That's where he served his apprenticeship, 150 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 2: and that's where he learned to be a restorer, and 151 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 2: so he's always had a very close tie to the city. 152 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: And of course he married a Venetian. His second wife 153 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: is a Venetian Jew. So Venice is very important to 154 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: the series. And when he retired from his position as 155 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 2: Director General of the Israeli Intelligence Service, he packed up 156 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: his family and moved to Venice, and he and his 157 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 2: wife now run the largest restoration firm in the city. 158 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: And you know, poor me, I have to spend all 159 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: this time in Venice. It's really rough there. 160 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: You also clearly have extraordinary knowledge of Rome. Are you 161 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: more of Venetian than a Roman? 162 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 2: No, I'm more of a Roman. I'm more of a Roman. 163 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: I mean, I love Venice, but it get very claustrophobic, 164 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 2: and it's tourism is a problem. There are beautiful corners 165 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 2: of Venice where you can sort of imagine that to 166 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 2: be city. I would have loved to have been there 167 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: during the pandemic. Did you see those incredible pictures where 168 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 2: the water in the canals was running crystal clear because 169 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: there wasn't so much traffic and so many tourists in 170 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: the city. I love Rome. I'm crazy about Rome. 171 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: You have a woman who dies mysteriously and she's floating 172 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: in the waters of the Venetian Lagoon, which I think 173 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: is perfectly plausible, But then you leave Venice. It's very 174 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: clear that a significant part of this was inspired by 175 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: a real scandal at the Vatican involving Cardinal Giovanni Angelo Bitcho, 176 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 1: who lost his roll, I mean, was clearly yielding sentenced 177 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: to five and a half years in prison. It's really 178 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: fascinating to me. You capture the flavor of the world's 179 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: last absolute monarchy in a way that I thought was very, 180 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:56,359 Speaker 1: very intrigue. 181 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: I won't tell you the name of the very well 182 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: known Vatican correspondent, but he said to me one time, 183 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 2: you're the only person who understands the way this place 184 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 2: really works. And I don't know how I came to that, 185 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 2: except that I'm a good mimic. I did grow up 186 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: in the faith and have priests within the family and 187 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: nuns within the family, always around religious and still am. 188 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 2: I have a number of very close friends who are 189 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: serving the priesthood. I think I understand what most priests 190 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 2: really like. I try to make them seem like normal people. 191 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 2: We have some friends of mine worked at the Vatican, 192 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 2: and we would just go out and go to these 193 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: little restaurants and they would sit with my kids and 194 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: we would just have the most incredible time just laughing, laughing, 195 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 2: laughing and just being like normal people. And that's what 196 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: I tried to do with mine, to not get too 197 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 2: up in the holiness this and holiness that, and eminence, eminence, seminence, 198 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 2: but try to treat them as though they are officials 199 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: of a city state, which they are normal people. That 200 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 2: is my technique for dealing with them. I have a 201 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: fictitious pope. My Pope sneaks out of the Vatican in 202 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: plain clothes just to try to get out of the 203 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 2: place a little bit and have a meal out. I 204 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: did that very intentionally so that I could get that 205 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: cassick off him and just try to imagine him as 206 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 2: a real person. I didn't give my pope a papal 207 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 2: au pontifical name. I would refer to him by his 208 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: given name, because I didn't want him to be sort 209 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: of lost behind that name. 210 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: Wait, DISENTI with the Pope you write, given what happened 211 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: during the process of your writing and publishing the book, 212 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: with the passage of for Insis and the election of 213 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: the first American pope in history, in many ways, I 214 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: felt like your pope had prefigured how Pope Leo actually operates. 215 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: He comes across a sort of remarkable, modern practice, down 216 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: to earth person who could in fact have the kind 217 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: of conversations that you have in the book. 218 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he is. I clearly modeled him, borrowed 219 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: a great deal from Francis. But it's remarkable to me 220 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: the degree to which he does remind me almost more 221 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: of Leo. At this point I had him live in 222 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 2: the Casa Santa Marta. It's remarkable the degree to which 223 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 2: he really does strike me as a Leo like figure. 224 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 2: It's in the text and elsewhere in the series. This 225 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: Pope is the liberation theologian. I think that Leo probably 226 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: is as well. I think Francis was as well. He 227 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 2: is focused, like a laser beam on the needs of 228 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: the poor. He wants the church to be focused on 229 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 2: the poor and to be poor itself, just like Francis did. 230 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 2: And he is bound and determined to root out once 231 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: and for all the corruption that has bedeviled this institution 232 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 2: since the nineteen seventies. It has been sort of one 233 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 2: financial scandal after another, unfortunately, and very deeply embedded, and 234 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 2: very deeply embedded. It's not anti Catholic to say that 235 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 2: it's not any anti anything. It is what it is. 236 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 2: And I think that the problem is secrecy, secrecy, secrecy, 237 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 2: and that they want to play by two sets of rules, 238 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 2: and of course that priests and bishops aren't necessarily the 239 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: best money managers in the world, and they have to 240 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: rely on the so called men of trust to help 241 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: run their financial affairs. And a lot of these men 242 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: of so called trusts that they have chosen over the 243 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: years have not been trustful at all, and they've gotten 244 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: them into a lot of trouble. 245 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: Cardinal pell who had been brought in specifically to try 246 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: to clean it up by Pope Princess and listening to him, 247 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: describe the level of resistance, and you capture this in 248 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: three or four of your novels. You have several different 249 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: opportunities where the interweaving between the criminal aloneans of Italy 250 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: and the elements of the Vatican are sobering and historically clearer. 251 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: But it's one of the things you do, I think 252 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: extraordinary well. You communicate that what you deal with in 253 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: certain kinds of criminal structures his entire networks of people. 254 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: It's not one person or two people. It's much more 255 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: demps than the TV version. 256 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are networks, are power centers, and everyone always 257 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 2: thought it revolved strictly around doctrine. That that's where the 258 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: resistance to Francis was. You know that he had kind 259 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: things to say famously, you know who am I to 260 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: judge about the LGVTQ community and wanted to change the 261 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: rules regarding the sacraments and divorced Catholics. But I think 262 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: that the real war was about the money and reform. 263 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: It was a holy war upon intended inside the Vatican. 264 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: The inside job was so rich. Why did you pick 265 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: Leonardo rather than say Michelangelo or Raphael? Is the painting? 266 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: Well, two words, Salvator mundy. You know that a painting. 267 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: Let's just say that the attribution is correct. It's air tight, 268 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: it's Leonardo with a helping hand of his studio. Okay, 269 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: let's say that's exactly what it is. This should be 270 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: one hundred million dollars, one hundred and twenty million dollars, 271 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 2: maybe maybe one hundred and fifty million dollars. I happened 272 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: to know someone who handled the painting and attempted to 273 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 2: buy the painting. Effect I was allowed to see it 274 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 2: years before it sort of broke through into the public consciousness. 275 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: It startled me the first time I saw it. It it 276 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: really did. I thought it was quite extraordinary. And at 277 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: that time, the dealers who controlled it, they wanted one 278 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty five million dollars for it. That's what 279 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: they thought the painting was worth. And then it gets 280 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 2: in the hands of Christie's and they run this incredibly 281 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 2: skilled marketing campaign. They auction the painting not in an 282 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: old master sale but in contemporary evening sale, and it 283 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 2: gets caught in a bidding war between two of the 284 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 2: richest men in the world, men to whom money means 285 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: absolutely nothing, and we end up at down near a 286 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: half billion dollars. There's no other artist that's going to 287 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: get me there, and that's what I wanted there's an 288 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 2: art auction. I'm making little air quotes, little scare quotes 289 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 2: in the air. Here there's an art auction in this book, 290 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: a private black Ops art auction. What I was really 291 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 2: trying to do with that set piece is to sort 292 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 2: of capture the folly of the sale of that painting 293 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: to MBS for that kind of money. I mean, God 294 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 2: bless him. I hope he builds a beautiful home for 295 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 2: it and lets Christian pilgrims and anyone else who wants 296 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 2: to enter the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to come see it. 297 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 2: But I'm glad he paid that amount of money for it. 298 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 2: I don't think the painting is worth that. But here's 299 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: the flip side of that. What is anything worth. It's 300 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: worth what someone is willing to pay for it. So 301 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 2: you know who am I have judged? 302 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: You weave so many different things into Gabriel Alone's life, 303 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: and you have him now to set up this trap. 304 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: He has to paint an exact replica of the painting. 305 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:31,479 Speaker 1: To what extent did you actually study Leonardo's painting style 306 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: in order to write that section. 307 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 2: I studied it. I learned everything I could about it, 308 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 2: and as you can tell, I mean, I know exactly 309 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 2: how he mixed his base layer, his ground I know 310 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 2: that he put finely ground glass on the base layer 311 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: of his painting to give it that shimmer and sparkle. 312 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: I know how he made his painting's layer by layer 313 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 2: by layer by layer. And we get to expel eperience 314 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: that through Gabriel, and he sort of morphs into Leonardo. 315 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 2: He adopts Leonardo's personality as he's working on it in 316 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: this novel. Without giving too much away, he forges a 317 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 2: Leonardo and then he gets to restore Leonardo, and they're 318 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: my favorite sections of the book. To be honest with you, 319 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: I loved painting the Leonardo mean, he painted it for me. 320 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 2: But that description of how he made his paintings is 321 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 2: very accurate. 322 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: I think part of what makes this such a successful 323 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: long term series is that whether it's the Pope, the painting, 324 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: the restaurant, the travel, the conspiracy, the counter conspiracy, the 325 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: setting up of the trap made, all the different things 326 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: going on, it never ends. The book carries you from 327 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: scene to scene like a superb movie. 328 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. You have to come on tour 329 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 2: with me, and we have to do this in front 330 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: of live audiences, and then I can have the night 331 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 2: off and just you can ask the questions and I'll 332 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,479 Speaker 2: nod appreciatively and save my voice. But thank you. I 333 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 2: really appreciate that. You know. I do have a odd 334 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 2: unique style that I've developed. I think that I do 335 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 2: try to make the books read lyrically, a bit like 336 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: plain song poetry here and there, blank verse. 337 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: I read your books in part just for the pleasure 338 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: of the language. You were one of the best wordsmeths 339 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: of our generation. It says it made amazing to watch 340 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: how you do it. 341 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 2: Thank you, speaker Kingrish. That's fair character. 342 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: What makes it really frustrating for those of us who 343 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,719 Speaker 1: are mere mortals is that you write all your books 344 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: in pencil on yellow legal pads. And do you still 345 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: do it on the floor? 346 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: I do, I do. I'm pretty flexible if I just 347 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 2: like to lie on the floor. I was awarded the 348 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: inaugural Nelson to Mill Award on Sunday evening out on 349 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 2: Long Island, where Nelson lived. And that's one of a 350 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 2: couple of things that mister Demill and I had in common, 351 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 2: was that we both wrote in Long Henry. He wrote 352 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 2: in longhand he used a number one pencil. I'm a 353 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 2: number two pencil person. There are a few of us 354 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: out there. And Tyler, who I just adore, author of 355 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 2: Accidental Tourist, among other great novels. She has this technique 356 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: where after she edits the book, she writes the entire 357 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: darn thing out in longhand to do one final edits. 358 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 2: And why does she do that? It slows it down, 359 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 2: and it exposes by extraneous words, false notes. And that's 360 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 2: the beauty of writing in longhand that it does slow 361 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 2: the process down a great deal. 362 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: And as I understand it, you actually don't start a 363 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: novel like an inside job with an outline and a 364 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: sense of world. End up, you started, and then it 365 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: sort of carries you where it goes. 366 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: I like to see about maybe a quarter of it. 367 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 2: That's all I need. I guess I'd like to say 368 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 2: that I'd write the book's sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph. 369 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: I like to think of my first draft as my outline, 370 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: and then Jamie and I will sit and read it aloud, 371 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 2: and then it gets edited down. I don't know about you, 372 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 2: but I believe in editing down. I find it hard 373 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 2: to edit up. I can add it scene or add 374 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: a chapter here. But I like to overwrite the first 375 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 2: draft and then edit down, down, down, down down. 376 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: Part of the different in your brilliance and my production approaches. 377 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: I hate editing. 378 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 2: Oh. 379 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,479 Speaker 1: I always have editors, and they are always good, they 380 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: always make it better, and I just hate it. I 381 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: could never compete. I never reach your level of talent. 382 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: Oh, come on, come on. You write nonfiction, you write fiction, 383 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: you write political commentary. You're a very skilled, highly skilled 384 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 2: writer and stylist, and you're also an orator, and so 385 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: you know how to write a speech. You're selling yourself short. 386 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 2: You're being overly modest. 387 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: Well, no one has ever accused me of that, but 388 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: I will take that as a great n I appreciate 389 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: so much you and Jamie. This book is great. Do 390 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: you have a new one coming? Have you thought of 391 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: the next one? 392 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 2: The only way that I can get a book out 393 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 2: of my head or stop tinkering with it, I had 394 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 2: to teach myself how to write a book in such 395 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 2: a short period of time. I think it's our friend 396 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 2: Leonardo da Vinci who said that a work of art 397 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 2: is never finished, it's only abandoned. I don't abandon my words. 398 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: They are taken away from me before I think this 399 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 2: everything is exactly right, and I will sit and drive 400 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 2: myself crazy, and the only way I can stop that 401 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: is to get going on something else. I finish the book. 402 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 2: I do a little bit of pre publicity work, the 403 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 2: kinds of things I have to do to get ready 404 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 2: to publish the book. But in June, I'd just like 405 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 2: to sit and find my way into a new book, 406 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 2: and so I was able to do that this June, 407 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 2: and I have forty or fifty pages of the next book. 408 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: Well, I can assure you I am looking forward eagerly. 409 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: I will try to survive the long desert between your books, 410 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: but I'm confident will be equally brilliant. 411 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 2: Thank you. It's more than I deserve. Gingrich, thank you 412 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 2: so much. Thank you. You're very kind. 413 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 1: I want to thank you and beIN give Jamie my regards. 414 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: I'm such a big fan of both of you. Your 415 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: new book, and Inside Job is available now on Amazon 416 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: and bookstores everywhere, and I recommend everyone after you read it, 417 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: go back to number one and learn all about Gabriel 418 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: throughout his entire life. I really enjoyed it, and I'm 419 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: looking forward to your next book. 420 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 2: Oh Thank you so very much for having me. It 421 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 2: was wonderful to be back and good to hear your voice. 422 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Daniel Silva. You can get 423 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, An Inside Job 424 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is 425 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: produced by Gangrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 426 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: is Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork 427 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks 428 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If you've been 429 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and 430 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: both rate us with five stars and give us a 431 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, 432 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: listeners of news World can sign up for my three 433 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: freeweekly columns at gingrishwree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 434 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: newt Gangrich. This is neut World.