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Speaker 1: Welcome to Had of Money. I'm Joel and I am

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Speaker 1: Today we're talking tit wands versus spendthrifts with Scott Rick.

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Speaker 2: And so, as you heard the title of the episode,

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing that listeners found themselves identifying with one or

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Speaker 2: the other. So maybe you've always been cheap, not frugal, cheap,

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Speaker 2: and you have worn it as a badge of honor.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe you are more like a lot of Americans

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Speaker 2: and you find it impossible the pass up a good

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Speaker 2: sale so you pounce. Or perhaps you are what our

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Speaker 2: guest today calls an unconflicted consumer. Either way, the good

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Speaker 2: news is that you are not locked into this archetype forever.

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Speaker 2: You can modify your behavior, which is not only good

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Speaker 2: for you, but it can be incredibly official to your

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Speaker 2: relationship with your partner, with your significant other. And to

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Speaker 2: talk about that more today is Scott Rick. Scott holds

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Speaker 2: a PhD in behavioral decision research from Carnegie Mellon. He's

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Speaker 2: known for his work on consumer financial decision making, where

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Speaker 2: he focuses on the emotional aspects that influence our spending behaviors.

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Speaker 2: His latest book, tit Wads and Spendthrifts, Navigating the money

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Speaker 2: mindfield in real relationships is the title of it. And

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Speaker 2: we're excited to talk about all that and more today. Scott,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Matt and Joel, thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Of course, no, we're super excited. There's so much ground

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Speaker 1: to cover, so many questions that we have for you, Scott,

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Speaker 1: especially since you are a renowned professor, getting into the

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Speaker 1: nitty gritty, a lot of data that you uncover too

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Speaker 1: in your book. But the first question we ask everybody

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Speaker 1: who comes on the show is what's your craft beer equivalent?

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Speaker 1: What that means is essentially, Matt and I we like

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Speaker 1: to splurge on craft beer while we're also doing the

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Speaker 1: hard work of saving and investing for our futures. So

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Speaker 1: what's that for you? What's your splurge?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think you probably could have guessed this from

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Speaker 3: the book, but I do have to say it's probably

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Speaker 3: baseball cards. I can find myself at Target maybe picking

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Speaker 3: something up in addition to all the necessities. But you know,

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Speaker 3: it's it's something fun to do with the kids, and

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Speaker 3: they've gotten into it and nice and they've actually learned

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Speaker 3: a lot about players, and you know, the game the

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Speaker 3: end of the stats a little, but they really love

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Speaker 3: the kind of interpersonal drama and why this person left

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Speaker 3: this team and are they friendly nice? So it's it's

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Speaker 3: been fun.

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Speaker 1: That's such a nostalgic pastime to have too, Scott, I

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Speaker 1: love that. That's like, that's like mid centry Americana right there.

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Speaker 1: Do you do you? How do you? How do you

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Speaker 1: think about the value of those cards, because some people

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Speaker 1: I know really fixate on how valuable some of their

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Speaker 1: Mickey mant or Rookie card, that kind of stuff. Do

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Speaker 1: you care about that part of it?

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Speaker 3: I don't, not a lot, but I do cringe if

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Speaker 3: I see the children mishandling something and damaging and that

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Speaker 3: does hurt. But yeah, there are a few and they

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Speaker 3: like to look on eBay and we try to keep

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Speaker 3: track of certain ones, special ones. But yeah, they found

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Speaker 3: my old ones during COVID lockdown and they got curious,

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Speaker 3: and it's like, yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: I really like that you aren't justifying the expense of

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Speaker 2: buying these baseball cards by saying that they're going to

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Speaker 2: go up in value, that you appreciate them.

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Speaker 1: For like for themselves and themselves.

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Speaker 2: You are able to appreciate the cards as opposed to

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Speaker 2: talking your way into it and trying to convince your wife.

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Speaker 1: That this is an investment baby.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, exactly, Scott.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of target and shopping, there's actually this YouTube video

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Speaker 2: this is from almost a decade ago, where you are

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Speaker 2: talking about the benefits of retail therapy, which I will

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Speaker 2: say it sounded a little sus when we came across

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Speaker 2: this title, But can you fill us in on the

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Speaker 2: benefits of shopping when you're feeling down?

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Speaker 3: Well, yes, they're not universal, they're they're kind of targeted benefits,

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Speaker 3: I would say. But the idea there is that when

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Speaker 3: we're feeling sad, we often feel like we're not captains

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Speaker 3: of our own destiny, like we're not in control of

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Speaker 3: what's happening to us with the mercy of outside things

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Speaker 3: like weather disasters or political conflicts, health problems. But shopping

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Speaker 3: is one place where we get to make choices that

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Speaker 3: aren't terribly distressing. Do I want this or that? And

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Speaker 3: that process of choosing can help us feel more in control,

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Speaker 3: more like we're steering our own ship. And we do

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Speaker 3: find that making those simple choices can help you recover

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Speaker 3: from sadness faster. Than doing other pleasant things. So it's

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Speaker 3: that sense of making choices and feeling in control. And

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Speaker 3: there's other ways to do that. You could choose how

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Speaker 3: to rearrange the books on your book shelf, you know there,

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Speaker 3: But we focus on shopping because that is just a

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Speaker 3: very tempting option and we just wanted to say, well,

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Speaker 3: it's not all bad. It's you could do it in

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Speaker 3: a very low cost or even hypothetical window shopping way

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Speaker 3: and get that sense of choice and control.

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Speaker 1: So even window shopping can provide a similar benefits of

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Speaker 1: just like going and perusing, heading to the thrist store,

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Speaker 1: picking up something that's five bucks or something like that,

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Speaker 1: that can have just as much of like an emotional positive,

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Speaker 1: emotional impacting as go into like a luxury retailer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's one of those things,

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Speaker 3: as you can imagine, you have to be careful not

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Speaker 3: to go overboard and then you know, then you start

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Speaker 3: to feel out of control if you get kind of

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Speaker 3: bills coming in. But yeah, kind of small, kind of pleasurable,

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Speaker 3: low stakes choices. I think that's kind of where it's at.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about tight wads and spend thrifts. First

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Speaker 2: of all. We would like for you to define that

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Speaker 2: because and then one of the things you say in

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Speaker 2: the book is that they seem like they're actually opposite,

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Speaker 2: but they actually have more in common than we might think.

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Speaker 2: Can you talk about that for a minute.

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Speaker 3: So these are two kind of lovable characters. Tight Wads

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Speaker 3: are people who they often look good on paper. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you look at their bank accounts and investments and

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Speaker 3: all that, you would think they're not terribly worried about money.

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Speaker 3: But a lot of tight ones feel a lot of

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Speaker 3: anxiety when thinking about spending money, and they end up

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Speaker 3: not buying things that they think they should or they

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Speaker 3: know they should, and it hurts them, it hurts the

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Speaker 3: people around them, their families, and so there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of regret there. There's a lot of missed opportunities for

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Speaker 3: pleasure and enjoyment. On the other end, you have the

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Speaker 3: spend thrifts. People like me, we don't experience enough anxiety

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Speaker 3: when thinking about spending money. It's like someone cut the

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Speaker 3: brakes on the car and yeah, and so it doesn't

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Speaker 3: you know, possible purchases. They just have to kind of

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Speaker 3: clear a low bar for us, Like it's just like, ah, sure,

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Speaker 3: I'll try that.

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Speaker 2: Do I get It's not so much Ye.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, It's not so much about being materialistic or showing off.

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Speaker 3: It's just kind of yeah, the stop signal is is

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Speaker 3: very weak with us, and you know that could be

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Speaker 3: fun for a little while, but there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: things we come through regret later. Well I didn't really

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Speaker 3: need that, and so yeah, as you say, these two extremes,

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Speaker 3: although they spend very differently and go to different places,

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Speaker 3: there is some shared regret, some shared wistfulness there.

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Speaker 1: This is making me think that maybe that benefits of

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Speaker 1: retail therapy thing was a little self serving when you

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Speaker 1: did it, Scott, Are you trying to prove something to

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Speaker 1: other people? Like, Hey, it's okay, my little my little

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Speaker 1: shop addiction is nothing to see here. Well, I'm curious too,

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Speaker 1: and how did writing this book about tit wands versus

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Speaker 1: spend thrifts? How did that impact your relationship with money

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Speaker 1: that give you kind of extra insight into why and

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Speaker 1: how you do the things with money that you do.

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Speaker 3: Well, I will say there's a big me search component

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Speaker 3: to all of this, and the retail therapy in particular

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Speaker 3: stuff was just kind of driven by seeing all these

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Speaker 3: articles and opinion pieces on how silly retail therapy is,

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Speaker 3: and I thought, well, hold on, it's not all, you know, terrible.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, writing the book, it certainly did not make

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Speaker 3: me less of a spend thrift. If anything, it kind

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Speaker 3: of loosened me up a little more. I would say

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Speaker 3: it was a reminder of the kind of fragility of life.

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Speaker 3: And you know, just think about what people come to

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Speaker 3: regret later in life, and you know, there regrets both ways.

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Speaker 3: But you know, I'm writing the book at a time

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Speaker 3: when I have a bunch of young kids, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm kind of reflecting on boy, I don't want to

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Speaker 3: miss kind of opportunities for like building stories and memories

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Speaker 3: and you know, all these shared experiences. And so I

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Speaker 3: think it's made me even more amenable to that kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, Ay, I like that it's a little self survelates.

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Speaker 2: But ever, the contrarian Scott is pushing back on what

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Speaker 2: it is the journalists out there are writing.

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Speaker 1: But I'm curious she's got to hold those journalists fee

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Speaker 1: to the fight exactly.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be Scott when it comes to what

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Speaker 2: he spends on baseball cards. How much do you think

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Speaker 2: that an individual's financial success determines whether or not they're

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Speaker 2: going to be a tight wad or a spend thrift.

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Speaker 2: Like does someone's income or someone's over on net worth?

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Speaker 2: Do you think that that has any bearing or do

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Speaker 2: you think it's It tends to be a little more

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Speaker 2: hardwired into who somebody is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, if I wanted to predict whether someone is

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Speaker 3: more of a tight one or more of a spendthrift

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Speaker 3: right now, I might want to know more about their

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Speaker 3: income or their family's income when they were kind of

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Speaker 3: an adolescent, more so than their current income, because current

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Speaker 3: income is not a really good predictor of where you

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Speaker 3: are on this dimension. But there are a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who are the way they spend money it doesn't

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Speaker 3: really match up so well with like what they currently

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Speaker 3: look like on paper. There are a lot of tightwads

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Speaker 3: who are quite successful and you know, have kind of

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Speaker 3: come a long way from where they were when they

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Speaker 3: were young to where they are now, and you might

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Speaker 3: hope and expect that they would loosen up accordingly. But

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Speaker 3: a lot of titwandes have developed kind of a protective shell,

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Speaker 3: like you know, this response to spendings that protects them

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Speaker 3: from spending too much and going overboard.

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Speaker 1: No matter how much money they have. It seems so

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Speaker 1: even even sometimes billionaires driving like a ridiculously old rickety

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Speaker 1: truck just because they've got this aversion of spending money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah no, I mean there is a time when these

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Speaker 3: things are helpful, and then there's a time to kind

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Speaker 3: of shed these reactions. But these are not easily forgotten

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Speaker 3: or they don't go away so easy. So you know,

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Speaker 3: I quote a character from Love in the time of cholera.

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Speaker 3: He kind of grew up poor and through his own

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Speaker 3: efforts became this kind of rich industrialist. And someone called

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Speaker 3: him rich and he said, no, no, no, I'm not rich.

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Speaker 3: I am a poor man with money. It's a very

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Speaker 3: different thing. And a lot of tite wands seem to

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Speaker 3: have that orientation that they feel like they're on the brink,

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Speaker 3: even though an objective audience might say, what are you

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Speaker 3: talking about?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So in the book, he actually gives some

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Speaker 2: practices or some things that folks can do if you

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Speaker 2: happen to be a tightwad, that might allow somebody, like

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Speaker 2: in your case, while researching for this book, to open

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Speaker 2: up even more. And this say, isn't something that we

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Speaker 2: normally do find ways for folks to loosen the purse

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Speaker 2: rings a little bit. But what are some of the

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Speaker 2: principles that you say can be helpful in finding perhaps

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Speaker 2: maybe a little more balanced.

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Speaker 1: If you are typewan, we.

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Speaker 3: Out actually budgeting is. You know, we normally think about

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Speaker 3: budgeting as a way to control spending and kind of

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Speaker 3: reel it in. But I think for titwides it's essential

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Speaker 3: to use budgeting to loosen up because if they stumble

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Speaker 3: upon an opportunity to spend for happiness in the moment,

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Speaker 3: they'll find lots of reasons not to go for it,

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Speaker 3: and they'll pass it up most likely. But if they've

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Speaker 3: earmarked some optional fun money in advance, then that money

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Speaker 3: is there waiting for them when they stumble upon something

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Speaker 3: that they should probably go for, and so they have

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Speaker 3: to kind of pre commit. It's kind of like I'll

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Speaker 3: start my diet tomorrow. Like there's a lot of things

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Speaker 3: we're not ready to do right now. But if we

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Speaker 3: understand how our future selves will misbehave, we can tie them,

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Speaker 3: you know, tie their hands, so to speak, and kind

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Speaker 3: of lock in something before they have a chance to

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Speaker 3: back out. So I think budgeting for fun, is you know,

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Speaker 3: creating a spending plan right if budget is not a

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Speaker 3: good term there, but that's big for tight ones.

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Speaker 1: It does make it feel a little a little better, right,

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Speaker 1: A spending plan just sounds better than a budget. Budget's

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Speaker 1: like a four letter word for so many people. So

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Speaker 1: even just kind of marketing it a little bit, really

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Speaker 1: I think can help exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and yeah, the key thing is that you just

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Speaker 3: have to know yourself and know what you're likely to

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Speaker 3: do when the opportunities come your way, and so they

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Speaker 3: have to prepare for that in advance.

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Speaker 1: Talk to us about the dynamics of tightwads and spend

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Speaker 1: thrifts in relationships. So you say that people tend to

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Speaker 1: marry someone who has the same political beliefs as themselves, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but then we tend to marry our opposite for some

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Speaker 1: reason on the tit wand spend thrifts spectrum. So why

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Speaker 1: do you think opposites tend to attract specifically when it

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Speaker 1: comes to how couples handle their money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Well, like your political orientation, we're mostly comfortable

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Speaker 3: with that. You know, most democrats like being democrats, most

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Speaker 3: Republicans like being republicans, and so they like that part

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Speaker 3: of themselves. They like when they see other people who

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Speaker 3: have that quality, and that's true for most things about ourselves.

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Speaker 3: But the thing about tight wines and spend thrifts is

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Speaker 3: that they don't love this aspect of themselves. Usually they

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Speaker 3: recognize that this is kind of costing them in money

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Speaker 3: and or happiness, and this is a real imperfection that

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Speaker 3: they're not comfortable with. And when you discover someone else,

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Speaker 3: when you encounter someone else who has your same problem,

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Speaker 3: and that could be really off putting, and it can

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Speaker 3: shine an uncomfortable spotlight on the issue. Imagine like you're

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Speaker 3: someone who bites their nails but you're self conscious about it,

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Speaker 3: and then you go on a date with another kind

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Speaker 3: of elbier and you're like, oh, is that what I

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Speaker 3: look like? It just I didn't even want to think

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Speaker 3: about this tonight, but now you're forcing me to reflect.

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Speaker 3: And so I think for the two different spending types,

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Speaker 3: it can be fun and interesting and fascinating to form

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Speaker 3: a relationship with someone who goes about money quite differently,

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Speaker 3: And you know, when you're dating, the stakes are usually lower,

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Speaker 3: and even if you're kind of think what they're doing

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Speaker 3: is kind of foolish, Like, well, you know, there's not

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Speaker 3: big consequences, so it's just kind of a quirky, fun

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Speaker 3: thing to observe. But you know, in a longer term relationship,

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Speaker 3: things that are quirky at first can get less enchanted exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting in the outset

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Speaker 1: becomes far less incredibly trying. Yeah, over the long haul.

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Speaker 2: I think it's not only fun, but like I do

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Speaker 2: wonder if there's something in our subconscious that allows us

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Speaker 2: or causes us to be attracted to somebody that has

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Speaker 2: something that truly in the end might be more of

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Speaker 2: a complementary sort of skill set, say the ability to

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Speaker 2: spend money when you know that you don't, or vice versa.

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Speaker 2: But Scott, like you say that those relationships aren't doomed,

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Speaker 2: even though like it sounds like it is harder to do.

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Speaker 2: Although I'm making an argument that maybe it's more beneficial

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Speaker 2: for you to have somebody.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it can be kind of hard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's like working out. It's like a

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Speaker 2: good kind of hard. So you say that anybody who

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Speaker 2: does married someone who's like or in a long term

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Speaker 2: relationship with someone who is the opposite of them that

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Speaker 2: those individuals they're not predestined to fail, but that they

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Speaker 2: do in fact need to be navigated pretty carefully. I'm

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Speaker 2: guessing that's a little easier said than done. And so

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Speaker 2: how can couples engage with each other? How can they

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Speaker 2: handle their money in a more healthy manner?

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Speaker 3: No, I think the what I would call a mismatched

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Speaker 3: couple kind of one tight wide, one spend thrift. If

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Speaker 3: left to their own devices, it can often kind of

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Speaker 3: go wrong. But I do think there's the greatest potential

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Speaker 3: for happiness with a mismatched couple, and some really do

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Speaker 3: get it right. And I would like to think my

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Speaker 3: marriage is we're very mismatched, but I think we've figured

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Speaker 3: out a way to kind of organize and discuss money

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Speaker 3: that you know, makes it kind of brings out the

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Speaker 3: best of both perspectives. And so, yeah, that's that's a

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Speaker 3: lot of what I grapple with. I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of it is deciding what needs to be discussed and

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Speaker 3: what can be kind of information that's available upon request,

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Speaker 3: and hopefully the requests are kind of few and far between.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you you actually are kind of against the concept

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Speaker 1: of full transparency with money, right, you say that it's overkill,

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Speaker 1: it creates more problems. So what's the right amount of

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Speaker 1: money communication. Then, when it comes to how couples talk

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Speaker 1: about their finances, No.

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Speaker 3: And I totally understand the intuition that full transparency is

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Speaker 3: necessary and good, but I think it can lead to

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Speaker 3: a lot of unnecessary arguments. And you know, for example,

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Speaker 3: if we have different diferent interest or hobbies that you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe don't make a huge difference for our kind of

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Speaker 3: overall household well being, but might seem quite wasteful or

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Speaker 3: overly expensive to the other person, you're just going to

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Speaker 3: squash the other person's enjoyment of that pursuit. And we

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Speaker 3: need our own kind of individual passions and hobbies and

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Speaker 3: these are important for happiness. So yeah, So I propose

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Speaker 3: what I call kind of financial translucency, where we have

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Speaker 3: full transparency about how the house is doing. You know,

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Speaker 3: we know how much money is kind of shared and

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Speaker 3: for example a joint account, we know how much is

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Speaker 3: available for bills and investments and all that. But in

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Speaker 3: terms of like individual spending, I think we each get

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Speaker 3: to spend some of our money without being closely monitored

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Speaker 3: by the other person. So I might just know that

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Speaker 3: you have a certain amount of money per week or

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Speaker 3: month that you use, and that's the level at which

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Speaker 3: I need to know about that. I don't need line

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Speaker 3: by line details on what you're up to. Of course,

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Speaker 3: if you want a second pair of eyes on what

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Speaker 3: you're doing, yeah, you should feel free to ask for that.

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Speaker 3: But the default should not be that we're both kind

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Speaker 3: of pouring over each other's credit card statement or you know,

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Speaker 3: individual checking account history, because you know you need some

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Speaker 3: autonomy and individuality even within a very committed relationship.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, you write about how it can just

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Speaker 2: lead to those petty arguments where one person, most likely

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Speaker 2: the tightwad, is nitpicking every single purchase that the spend

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Speaker 2: threat is making Scott. But yeah, you point out how

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Speaker 2: it's just not it's truly not that necessary as long

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Speaker 2: as you have communicated some of these larger perhaps goals,

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Speaker 2: maybe some guardrails like boundary used to the amount of

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Speaker 2: money that you've set aside. So this kind of bags

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Speaker 2: the question. Then, are you a fan of separate or

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Speaker 2: the joint bank accounts? What have you found in your

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Speaker 2: research and what leads to the most fulfilling, long lasting relationships?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I am a fan of both. But yeah, I'll

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Speaker 3: tell you one of the projects we did for this,

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Speaker 3: it was kind of adventurous. We found engaged in newly

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Speaker 3: weed couples who were undecided about what to do with

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Speaker 3: their bank account structure, and we paid them to do

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Speaker 3: one of three things. We said, merge your money into

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Speaker 3: a joint account, or keep your money in separate accounts.

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Speaker 3: They all had separate accounts starting out, or a third group.

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Speaker 3: We just said, do what you want, and we followed

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Speaker 3: them for two years. We checked in every few months

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Speaker 3: and we said, are you still talking, do you still

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Speaker 3: like each other? You wish you worried someone else? Just

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Speaker 3: you know, wanted to take the temperature of the relationship.

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Speaker 3: And what we found was that at the end of

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Speaker 3: two years, the couples who we prompted to merge their

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Speaker 3: money into a joint account were happiest. They maintained their

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Speaker 3: kind of high newlywed level of relationship satisfaction. And the

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Speaker 3: couples who kept it separate, they had the normal decline

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Speaker 3: over time. The couples who chose to do whatever they

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Speaker 3: want most kept it separate and most had the same

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Speaker 3: decline over time. So we think that merging the money

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Speaker 3: into the joint account had some real benefits. One thing

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Speaker 3: it does, what it can do if you use it

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Speaker 3: the right way, is that it can turn your money

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Speaker 3: in my money into our money. It can be kind

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Speaker 3: of a psychological money laundering tool where it absorbs all

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Speaker 3: incoming money and you're just blurring income differences, if at

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Speaker 3: all possible, because there usually is an income difference between partners,

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Speaker 3: and you're getting away from scorekeeping, which is like, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: I contribute sixty percent to the rent and you contribute

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Speaker 3: forty percent. Like that's not a recipe for happiness. And

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Speaker 3: couples usually can slide in the score keeping over time,

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Speaker 3: and that's not good. So like, oh, could you do

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Speaker 3: the dishes tonight because I did them last night. That's

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Speaker 3: not good. Better to say, oh, could you do it

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Speaker 3: tonight because I'm exhausted and I really need the help.

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Speaker 3: That's a more kind of communal way to go about it.

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Speaker 3: And so the joint account seem to help keep it communal.

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Speaker 3: And it prompted conversations about shared financial goals, which is

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Speaker 3: not always oh let's save safe save. Maybe it's oh, well, oh,

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Speaker 3: we discover we can afford an extra vacation here and

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Speaker 3: there or something fun. So I do think adopting the

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Speaker 3: joint account, especiallytually for a younger couple, can have all

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Speaker 3: kinds of benefits. But I don't think that's all you

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Speaker 3: want to do. I do think on the back end

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Speaker 3: of that joint account, it's good to have separate accounts

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Speaker 3: that are attached to it, and you can each take

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Speaker 3: some of our money and then use that in your

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Speaker 3: own individual separate accounts again to get away from the

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Speaker 3: unnecessary monitoring by a partner.

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Speaker 1: That's like the best of both worlds sort of.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 2: So that's you describing your both answer where you've got

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Speaker 2: the communal pot which is which is funny because actually,

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Speaker 2: as I think about my wife and I, like, if

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Speaker 2: you were to ask me, hey, do y'all have a

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Speaker 2: joint do you have a joint account or do you

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Speaker 2: have separate accounts? I would immediately say joint. Yeah, we

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Speaker 2: can minor money. Technically it's a joint account, but effectively

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Speaker 2: we kind of have individual accounts because like you have outlined,

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Speaker 2: like we have these itemized personal categories where we have

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Speaker 2: outlined a certain amount of money that we're not accountable

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Speaker 2: to each other. We trust each other enough to not

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Speaker 2: do buy things that are going to be harmful for

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Speaker 2: health or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Even though that money doesn't actually specifically go into a

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Speaker 1: separate account, it's just spent in a way that you

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Speaker 1: guys don't have to talk about.

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Speaker 2: It on paper. Yeah, on paper, it's almost like a

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Speaker 2: separate a separate account there. But Scott, we've got more

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Speaker 2: to talk about with you, and specifically we want to

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Speaker 2: discuss how it is that we can resolve conflicts as

433
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: couples might be at odds with how it is that

434
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 2: they're going to handle their money. We'll get that more

435
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 2: right after this.

436
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: Right we're back. We're still talking about tit wands for

437
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: spend thrifts with Professor Scott Rick, and so much interesting

438
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: stuff to talk about here. I think everyone, like you

439
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: said Mat at the beginning, kind of visually identifies with

440
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: one of the other, Oh knee jerk, I'm a tightwad

441
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 1: or I'm a spend thrift. But there are ways that

442
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 1: you can actually kind of moderate your behavior too, which

443
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: we'll talk about in just a second. But Scott, you

444
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: you say that our psychology not only influences how we

445
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: handle money, but the way we handle mone money also

446
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: influences our psychology. That one was kind of a brain

447
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 1: teaser for me. It feels like a chicken urse egg thing,

448
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: Like I'm just really curious as I was reading your book,

449
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: like that line stuck out to me. I'm really curious

450
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: what you mean by that.

451
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you often hear from relationship experts that an

452
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 3: argument over money is really an argument about some underlying condition,

453
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 3: so kind of a power imbalance, or you have just

454
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 3: been reminding me too much of your mother, or.

455
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 2: Which don't ever say that, by the way, Yeah, I know, Jill,

456
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: learn that first time.

457
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 3: So like, there's something else. It's not really about the

458
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 3: twenty five bucks you spent on the baseball cards at Target.

459
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 3: It's about something else. And yes, that can be true,

460
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 3: of course, But what I wanted to highlight was that

461
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 3: the way that the household, the couple, or the family

462
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 3: handles money, which might just be by accident, just like

463
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 3: some historical article fact of whoever went to the bank

464
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 3: and whatever they got talked into that day, what that

465
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 3: system looks like can create all kinds of psychological dynamics

466
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 3: that would not have been there otherwise. And it's like

467
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 3: adopting the joint account can be a way to you know,

468
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 3: let's say you have one spouse who chooses to stay

469
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: home and take care of young children. Using a joint

470
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 3: account to absorb ale incoming money can be a way

471
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: to kind of reinforce your message that I value you

472
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 3: where equals. Even though the income is technically you know,

473
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 3: the check is in my name, it's ours, and so

474
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 3: it immediately goes into our joint account and we each

475
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 3: have total access to that money. It's never like me

476
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 3: chipping in and giving you like an allowance or something.

477
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 3: So yeah, and a lot of people it's a real

478
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 3: afterthought when you're kind of planning a wedding and a

479
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 3: life together kind of how the money loose in the house,

480
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 3: But it could really kind of set up or you know,

481
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 3: reinforce and or create these new psychological dynamics.

482
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 2: It's crazy to think that, I think what you said

483
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: is totally true. That it could have just been whoever

484
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: happened to choose the errand that day to go to

485
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 2: the bank and open the account, and by default it's like,

486
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: oh they oh you're the you're the money person. Now

487
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: you're you hit all the finances when man like think

488
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 2: about the repercussions that that could have and how it

489
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 2: could potentially be organized in a way that could serve

490
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: the couple a whole lot better.

491
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like to I think either either extreme you

492
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: go to, whether it is just a joint account, we

493
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: don't have really any leeway for or a release valve

494
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: essentially for us to be able to spend in the

495
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: way that we want, or the opposite direction, which is

496
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: like we basically siphon everything off and then we do

497
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 1: that kind of sixty forty paying a brant like you mentioned.

498
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: That can also I think prevent the ability for one

499
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: of the folks in that relationship to be able to

500
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: go back to school or something like that, because now

501
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: we're both economic entities that have to provide for the

502
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 1: mutual expenses. When kind of the money does get kind

503
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: of pushed together, then you can it feels like maybe

504
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 1: those decisions are able to be made a little more

505
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: as a couple versus like, well, then you're not holding

506
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: up her into the bargain. I don't know, I could

507
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: see that as a potential pitfall of that way of

508
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: dividing things exactly.

509
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 3: And you know, it also highlights that there are less

510
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 3: optimal ways to use a joint account, like some people

511
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 3: use a joint but they're chipping into it, Like the

512
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 3: money goes into their individual accounts first, which is you know,

513
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 3: you can understand why if people have their jobs and

514
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 3: their direct deposits before getting married, Like there's a lot

515
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 3: of inertia there. But that again can create some suboptimal dynamics.

516
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: That's true, Okay, known infidelity Scott like that is the

517
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: number one predictor of divorce, But irritation with how a

518
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: partner spends money. That's also high up on the list

519
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: of why relationship fall apart. Why do you think that

520
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: money has such an outsized influence on the outcome of

521
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: a relationship?

522
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 3: Well, I mean part of it. There's a lot of

523
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: arguments over things that aren't super important, but you know,

524
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 3: it's just unavoidable. It's just every decision, you know, they're

525
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 3: the decisions that are obviously money related, you know, like

526
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 3: how much should we be investing and what kind of

527
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: house do we want? Where do we live, but just

528
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 3: thinks about how we spend our time, like what kind

529
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 3: of sports or hobbies should the kids be involved with?

530
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 3: Or you know what, you know, what book clubs are

531
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 3: we in? And just all these daily decisions are have

532
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 3: a big financial component, and so it's just unavoidable and

533
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: as much as we would love to look away and

534
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: not you know, pay attention to it. Like people get sick,

535
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 3: older family members need and you know, maybe a sibling

536
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 3: needs help. Like there's there's just no getting around it.

537
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: And so there are people who have seemingly have enough

538
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 3: money that like they're in okay shape. But if there

539
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 3: are just these obvious disagreements about how to use it,

540
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 3: you know, you can look it on paper and still

541
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 3: just have money as a big source of tension and

542
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 3: unyielding stress.

543
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting we're talking about relationships, but I feel

544
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: like that that's like an internal conflict that especially a

545
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: lot of taitwants have too. It's very prevalent, I think

546
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: in the fire movement, where people are unwilling to spend

547
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: money on things that matter on and so maybe it's

548
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: not like even a spouse or a girlfriend or boyfriend,

549
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: but then it's it often creates tension with the wider family.

550
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: It's like you didn't go to your cousin's wedding, like

551
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: you cheap skate, you know, so it can it can

552
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: create a turmoil, not just inside of like a loving

553
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: sort of relationship, a committed long term relationship, but inside

554
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: of those other relationships too when we're talking about relationships.

555
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: So you sum it up well, I think in the

556
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: book you said tit wands often win the battle, but

557
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: spend thrists win the war. Which still just feels like

558
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: there's oppositional dynamic where both parties in the relationship are

559
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: trying to get what's best for them, trying to get

560
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: their way. How do you think about that? And is

561
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: there a way to kind of make those money discussions

562
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:19,959
Speaker 1: not adversarial?

563
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe I was feeling a little militaristic that day.

564
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 3: I don't know, but yeah, So the the idea there

565
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 3: is that I think a lot of people picture it

566
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 3: the opposite, that the tight wand might be more stern

567
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 3: and more you know, someone putting their foot down like no, no, no,

568
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 3: like more the parental role. But you know, I think

569
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 3: there are a lot of non obvious spending decisions that

570
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 3: come up in the relationship and the tight wand might

571
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 3: be reluctant and say no, and no is just the

572
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: beginning of a conversation, like no just means the money

573
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 3: isn't spent yet. So the spend thrift might try again.

574
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 3: They might try again and again, and eventually the tightwand

575
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 3: might say, okay, all right, fine do it. I'm tired

576
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 3: of talking about this. And then once that yes comes,

577
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 3: I mean, usually the money is spent and it's hard

578
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 3: to get back, and so the decision to spend is

579
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 3: much more permanent than a decision not to spend. And

580
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: so that's why the spendthrift has like this built in advantage,

581
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: and a mismatched couple ends up looking more like a

582
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 3: two spendthrift couple. You just need like one spend thrift

583
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 3: in the house to kind of loosen up the couple.

584
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 3: Adding a second spend thrift doesn't do that much because

585
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 3: that one spend thrift has a lot of influence over

586
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 3: the ultimate purchases of the family, which is again not

587
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 3: necessarily a bad thing. A lot of tightwad spouses appreciate

588
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 3: their spend thrift partners loosening them up, but of course

589
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 3: there's a balance, and you know it can go the

590
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 3: other way very easily.

591
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: Also, Okay, what are the downsides of a two tightwad relationship?

592
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: Because instinctively, I would imagine somehow money listeners are saying

593
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: that sounds pretty good. But you're saving try it's pretty high.

594
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: I guess I just did highlight like the downsides of

595
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: the extreme saverer movement. But yeah, what two taiwands, It

596
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: seems like you'd be able to make a lot of

597
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: money progress.

598
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 3: That's true. I mean, the more you want to save

599
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 3: and grow all these accounts, the more tight ones you

600
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: should put in the house. Like that is absolutely true.

601
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 3: And you know, a two tight one family or a

602
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 3: two tight wane couple, they actually look pretty good in

603
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 3: terms of relationship satisfaction. That was my initial view of

604
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 3: a two tight wand marriage. But then I looked at

605
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 3: what the measure actually was, like the actual questions that

606
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 3: they were scoring high on, and the measure was from

607
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 3: the fifties and it's still very popular and it's still useful,

608
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 3: but it is kind of fifties point of view, and

609
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 3: it gave higher scores. If the couple they're kind of

610
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 3: both happy staying at home and not living kind of

611
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: like a fast paced life. So two tight wides, they

612
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 3: seem to be missing out on some adventures that they

613
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 3: sometimes long for. But it is kind of a recipe

614
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: for kind of a safe, quieter certainly financially more secure existence.

615
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 3: But there is some kind of longing that we see there.

616
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 2: Makes me think of food. It's like, oh, yeah, you can.

617
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 2: You can kind of go the safe route and make

618
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: sure your meat's always exactly to the temperature that the

619
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 2: USD recommends. But man, there's like something a little bit

620
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: missing when you can receive that well done stake. It's like, yeah,

621
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 2: might want to maybe seared nice and hot, but at

622
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,479
Speaker 2: a little red, little pink in the middle. That makes

623
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, there's a little bit of a contrast

624
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 2: that happens there. You miss out on some contrasts in

625
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 2: life exactly if you are only focusing on just pension

626
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: pennies constantly. But like, as you're kind of thinking talking

627
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 2: through that, it made me think about how the way

628
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: we spend our money, it's a reflection of our values

629
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: that's sort of bubbled up to the surface. And so

630
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 2: I wonder if money and what we buy, what we

631
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: don't buy, what we're saving forward and not saving for,

632
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: if that's just like more of a symptom of what

633
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 2: it is that we value as individuals and who we've

634
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 2: sort of decided who we are. Because all of those things,

635
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: like there are nebulous terms. It's hard to pin it

636
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: to the wall to say, well, I'm the type of

637
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: person who does who values this, and who appreciates this,

638
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: as opposed to saying, hey, do you want to spend

639
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 2: this many dollars on x vocation? And then all of

640
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 2: a sudden, it's incredibly tangible and it's like you can

641
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: spitball and theorize all you want. But until like the

642
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 2: rubber meets the road and you actually start spending money,

643
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: that's when you start having some of these harder conversations.

644
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: I think with your partner within a couple, would you

645
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: agree with yeah.

646
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: I mean some purchases are more diagnostic of values than others.

647
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 3: So if you donate X dollars to serve someone's presidential campaign,

648
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 3: like okay, that tells me a lot as a spendthrift.

649
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 3: When I hear that, it makes sense on the one hand,

650
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 3: On the other, I think, well, there's a lot of

651
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 3: things that I have bought in the past that was

652
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 3: kind of an experiment, kind of a I wonder if

653
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 3: I might like this, This might be fun to have around.

654
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 3: So we do a lot of just in case exploration buying.

655
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 3: You know, the saying is I'd rather be looking at

656
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 3: it than looking for it. So it's not so much

657
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 3: a reflection of like some set in stone value. It's

658
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 3: more of a it's just a reflection of kind of

659
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 3: curiosity and exploration and whimsy for lack of better word.

660
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 3: But no, I see what you're saying. But yeah, just

661
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 3: some are some are diagnostic, and some are like more

662
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 3: puzzling even to the person making the purchase.

663
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: So when we're talking about, you know, the tightwad verse

664
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 1: spendthrift dynamic, what about our listeners out there who are

665
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: maybe in the dating scene, which I can't imagine these

666
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 1: days with all the apps and stuff like that. But

667
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: how early on in a relationship should you be having

668
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: conversations about money? Should you be kind of trying to

669
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: probe and figure out? And I would imagine in some

670
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 1: instances it's actually not all that hard to figure out that, oh, wait,

671
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: this person I've gone on four dates with, clearly they're

672
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: a spendthrift. Right, Yeah, But like, how do you start

673
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 1: to have those conversations and navigate those waters? And what

674
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: sorts of questions might you ask to maybe not turn

675
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: somebody off, but to start a good combo?

676
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, now, and I would be aware that you know,

677
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 3: in dating that sometimes people are misrepresenting kind of what

678
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 3: they're willing to spend. We might be a little looser

679
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 3: with money at first, just to kind of well or

680
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 3: potential partners. But I would say that, you know, as

681
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 3: you say, some of these things are kind of apparent,

682
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 3: and it's obvious if someone just like hates to spend

683
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 3: money or they truly just can't stop. So I would

684
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,919
Speaker 3: just say that pay attention to your own reactions to them,

685
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 3: and if they are already when you're dating doing something

686
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 3: that drives you nuts, just be aware that it's not

687
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 3: going to get better during the marriage. It will only

688
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 3: get worse when things are higher stakes. And there are

689
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 3: kind of more lasting consequences to some of these choices.

690
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: And so sage advice financial or otherwise.

691
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, And even the things you like about that person,

692
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: often they might come to annoy you later on. Or

693
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: maybe you're like, I love your sense of humor, yeah

694
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: too much joking?

695
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, well that is that is a known

696
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 3: pattern of fatal attraction that sometimes the everything that draws

697
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 3: us in repels us later. So I might be kind

698
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 3: of fascinated with your success in whatever field you're in, Like,

699
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 3: I think it's really cool what you do and I

700
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 3: want to be around you and it's fun at first,

701
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 3: but then as I start to live with you, for example,

702
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 3: I might discover, oh, you're only able to do these

703
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 3: successful things by being a total workaholic and you can't

704
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 3: really make time for me now that we're in a

705
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 3: more stable thing. And so yeah, it just kind of

706
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 3: the thing that drew you in is like you're realizing, oh,

707
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 3: this is not sustainable. Yeah.

708
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 2: Well, and then to the second Partjole's question, you're kind

709
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 2: of setting it up, Scott, but then yeah, like when

710
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 2: should couples kind of have this more serious conversation perhaps

711
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 2: about money.

712
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's good to know, ideally before getting engaged,

713
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 3: kind of if there are any kind of big, giant

714
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 3: red flags coming, you know, if there's some you know,

715
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,240
Speaker 3: if your phone is ringing all the time because creditors

716
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 3: are chasing it down, that's good to know. But yeah,

717
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 3: you don't want any kind of post wedding big surprises.

718
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's good to kind of just kind of

719
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 3: understand where everyone's at and you know, and this can

720
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 3: happen when you're thinking about how you set up the

721
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 3: money in the household, which you can do when you're engaged,

722
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 3: and how do we want money to move around? And

723
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 3: these can also happen. There are lots of fresh starts

724
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 3: even in a committed, stable, happy relationship like New Year's

725
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 3: and tax return time, and you know, these can be

726
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,439
Speaker 3: excuses to have these conversations.

727
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: I was going to say too, like starting off being

728
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: a little vulnerable yourself, maybe talking about your money history. Hey,

729
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: guess what, we're sure my parents did this that kind

730
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: of I don't know, I'm trying to do things a

731
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: little differently and just opening up about how you handle money,

732
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: how you think about money. It doesn't have to be

733
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: this sort of like, so tell me about how much

734
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: money you make and then how much money you spend

735
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: like you think. It doesn't have to be super analytical,

736
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: and some of that personal narrative weaving that in starting

737
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 1: with yourself can actually I think grease the gears to

738
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: them opening up and being willing to talk more totally

739
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: about their finances and their thoughts on money. Scott, we

740
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: got a few more questions to get to, including we've

741
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 1: been talking about spenders and tight wads as binary, but

742
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: they actually exist on a spectrum, so we want to

743
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: talk about that with you. We'll get to a few

744
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: more questions right after this.

745
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 2: We are back from the break talking with Professor Scott

746
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: Rick his book Tight Wads and Spendthrifts, Navigating the Money

747
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: Minefield and Real Relationships. That's the title of the book.

748
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 2: But Scott, like, I'm curious as to if you think

749
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: it makes more sense for a couple, So what you

750
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: call a mismatched couple. Should they completely lean into their

751
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 2: natural personality, their natural tendencies and sort of accept that, hey,

752
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: this is this is who you're married, this, this is

753
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 2: what you signed up for, this is what I'm able

754
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: to bring to the table. Or do you think it's

755
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: perhaps more helpful for a mismatched couple to work And

756
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: this sounds like I'm leading the witness here to listen

757
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: to each other and to see the other points of

758
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: view and perhaps to both work towards the center a

759
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 2: little bit, and maybe that's a better arrangement.

760
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. I feel

761
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: like Scott can heal our political divide with this answer to.

762
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 3: That next episode, No, we do find that the better

763
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 3: couples do kind of become more like each other over time,

764
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 3: and I think you have to. You know, the ones

765
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 3: who kind of are very mismatched and they see mismatch,

766
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 3: that's hard to keep that going. So there has to

767
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 3: be some adjustments over time. Yeah, So I don't think

768
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 3: either one have kind of the obvious say over kind

769
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 3: of all big decisions. I think you need like politics,

770
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 3: like Congress and our government. You need separation of powers

771
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 3: and checks and balances. So I would say that, you know,

772
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 3: when there's like a big material decision that the couple

773
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 3: is facing or the family, so like should we you know,

774
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 3: buy the fancy new car or move to the you know,

775
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 3: nicer neighborhood, or like some object that they're thinking about buying,

776
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:37,760
Speaker 3: that's where I say the tightwe should have more influence there.

777
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,240
Speaker 3: They kind of get to break the tie just based

778
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 3: on happiness research that we know that a lot of

779
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 3: material goods, you know, make us happy for a little while,

780
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 3: but then it kind of fades over time and you

781
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 3: don't get a lot of bank for your buck usually,

782
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 3: And so that's where I like the tite wan is

783
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 3: having more control there. But when it's something experiential, like

784
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 3: a shared experience or a family vacation or something that's

785
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 3: really going to create stories and memories and anticipation. Then

786
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 3: I say lean a little more towards the spend thrift

787
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 3: having control, because again we know that meaningful shared experiences

788
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,240
Speaker 3: can really be what have a big effect on happiness.

789
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:22,720
Speaker 3: You do get a lot of bang for the buck,

790
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 3: and you know, in a family, that's it's a great

791
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 3: chance to like learn about each other. Like you can

792
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 3: only learn so much about your spouse in kind of

793
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 3: mundane daily discussions about who's letting in the you know,

794
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 3: refrigerator repair person, and like you really learn about each

795
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 3: other when you're kind of doing something new. And so yeah,

796
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 3: those experiences are that's where I like to spend thrifts

797
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 3: to have more control there.

798
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 2: I like it. Kind of going back to the food example,

799
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: you can play it safe and only focus on the

800
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 2: most boring existence, and sure, yeah, I guess you don't

801
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: run the risk of upsetting the apple cart. But at

802
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 2: the same time, the bigger risk that you run perhaps

803
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 2: is a very drab sort of gray existence.

804
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:07,919
Speaker 1: You can win the money game and kind of lose

805
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: the life game essentially, which and I do think that

806
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: that is certainly the risk that hyper frugal people entertain

807
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 1: and I feel like I've seen it, and I feel

808
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: in some ways, I feel like I was kind of

809
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: at risk for that because I had one of the

810
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: you talk about the childhood experience of money and how

811
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: that impacts how you think about money now. Well, for

812
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: a long time, it made me ridiculously hyper frugal, and

813
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: I've had to learn to kind of moderate to being

814
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: more still frugal, Like it's almost like you can't rip

815
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 1: that out of me. It's ingrained at this point in time.

816
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: But I've learned to be able to at least change

817
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,919
Speaker 1: my stance and be more reasonable. I think my wife,

818
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: I would say, she's intrinsically frugal too, and we both

819
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: kind of pushed each other out of our comfort zone

820
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: to spend more on things that actually matter to us,

821
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: although it's been hard. But how would you suggest Because

822
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: people obviously following different points in the spectrum, so some

823
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: people are like kind of like I was just incredibly frue.

824
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: I had friends who would like dumpster dive to get

825
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: free stuff whatever, you know, and that's just part of

826
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: me loves the grittiness, but also, yeah, is it too far?

827
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: And so how can we maybe moderate our own where

828
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: we are on the spectrum, so that we can maybe

829
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 1: understand our partner's point of view better and just kind

830
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: of maybe not be as one note, one sided as

831
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: we might otherwise be.

832
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I mean that is where it helps to

833
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 3: have a partner with a different perspective. Ideally, you know,

834
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 3: if you're looking to make some big change to yourself,

835
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 3: I mean, as you know, kind of matched partners can

836
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 3: do this too, if they help each other. I have

837
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 3: a chapter about kind of how to change, and you know,

838
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 3: it's hard to do gigantic changes, but you know a

839
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 3: lot of it is kind of understanding yourself and the

840
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 3: errors that you might make and kind of taking steps

841
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 3: ahead of time to kind of force yourself your future

842
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 3: self to kind of go in the desired direction. And

843
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 3: so a spendthrift, for example, you know, nobody's out there

844
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 3: looking to help us kind of control ourselves. I mean,

845
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,439
Speaker 3: at least nobody at the mall. Let's say, retailers, they're

846
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 3: they're you know, trying to turn everyone into spend thrifts.

847
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 3: And so we spend thrifts have to take steps in

848
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 3: advance to kind of make spending a little more painful

849
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 3: for ourselves and put up speed bumps and delete our

850
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 3: credit card information from Amazon and try to pay with

851
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 3: cash as much as possible. And when we do pay

852
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 3: with card, can we take the receipt home and punch

853
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 3: them amount into Excel and kind of force ourselves to

854
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 3: kind of keep track of this. So yeah, it's there's

855
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 3: a lot of self understanding that's required here, and then

856
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,839
Speaker 3: kind of once you have that, taking steps to kind

857
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 3: of help your future self get on the right track.

858
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: It's like the bumpers in a bowling alley. You almost

859
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: need to have some of those guardrails to guide you

860
00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: so that you don't veer off into the gutter. But

861
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 1: they so you're still going down the lane, but you know,

862
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: you can be the other side and you can still

863
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: hit a bunch of pins.

864
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

865
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 2: I think what's interesting too is the fact that you might,

866
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: by implementing some of those practices, Scott, you might slow

867
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,399
Speaker 2: your role when it comes to spending. But that's not

868
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 2: to say that by spending without thought that that is

869
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 2: actually going to lead to happiness. Like, and I guess

870
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: that's something I don't I want listeners that I don't

871
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: want them to take away, is that it's not that

872
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 2: just the spend thrift is the one who leads to happiness,

873
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 2: because you could be spending money without thinking about it.

874
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: You could be spending mindlessly leading to consumption that is

875
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 2: only hurting you financially, that isn't necessarily leading to ultimate

876
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 2: happiness because you haven't thought about the different things that

877
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 2: that are important to you.

878
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: But it's like mindless instead of mindful spending.

879
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's no intention. There's no intention behind

880
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 2: behind it. But Scott, it's been a pleasure to speak

881
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 2: with you. Where can folks learn more about your books,

882
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 2: Tightwads and spend Thrifts, as well as what else you're

883
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 2: up to.

884
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, my website scottrick dot com has you know, a

885
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 3: lot of the research that the book is based on.

886
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 3: You know, I'm on all the socials. I'm new to Instagram.

887
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 3: I like my Instagram handle at likely shopping. But yeah,

888
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 3: I'm around and thanks so much for having me.

889
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 1: Of course, thanks so much for joining us, Scott. We

890
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: really appreciate it.

891
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 3: Thank you nice Joel.

892
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 2: You know what I love is that someone that is

893
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 2: as esteemed and accomplished as Scott Rick, someone who's as

894
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 2: smart as he is. He likes thinking about the same

895
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 2: kind of things that we like to think.

896
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: About, which is how is it that you approach.

897
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:30,919
Speaker 2: Spending your money in particular, which is a big reason

898
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 2: why we wanted to have him have him here on the.

899
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: Show, but still condescended to talk to us. That I

900
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: don't mean he was condescending.

901
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: No, no, no, He's came down from his perch, from his

902
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: level down to talk to us, the frugal not cheap

903
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 2: guys about money.

904
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,919
Speaker 1: But what is your big takeaway from today's episode? Oh gosh,

905
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many directions I could go with this.

906
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: Thoroughly enjoyed a lot of the research and what kind

907
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: of Scott highlights in his book, And I think it's

908
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: just informative for all of us to think about, well,

909
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: what is our bias and how can we maybe not

910
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: be as hardlined in our approach, maybe whether we are

911
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: more tight water spend thrift. I think it's good to

912
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: know that, and then it's good to moderate just a

913
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: little bit. But I think, and this is not something

914
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: I would typically focus it on, but when you talked

915
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: about kind of spending experiments, I actually really like that

916
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: idea because when we're trying to figure oftentimes we don't

917
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: know what it is we like to spend money on

918
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 1: until we've kind of tried a few different things, and

919
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 1: so low stakes, I would say, like, are you into

920
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 1: wine or you don't know you're into wine yet, Like

921
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: give it a shot. And it doesn't necessarily mean you

922
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: need one of those really expensive wine box subscriptions, but

923
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 1: find a way to dip your toes in the water

924
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 1: and try some of those spending experiments, and then you

925
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 1: can say, wait a second, that it turns out that

926
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 1: doesn't matter to me. Turns out the vacation or the cruises,

927
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: whatever it is, that's what I'm into. But I think

928
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: sometimes you have to be willing to experiment to find

929
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 1: the thing that you enjoy that you're willing to throw

930
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: big money into inside of your budget. And so I

931
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: think that's maybe like a fun task, especially for some

932
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: of those frugal folks. Okay, figure out what it is

933
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: you like to spend money on. Try some of those

934
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: money experiments out in your life.

935
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 2: For folks who don't know what the craft beer equivalent is,

936
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 2: and I think, especially when you are a little bit

937
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 2: younger in life, you may not exactly know what it

938
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 2: is that's going to make you the most fulfilled, that's

939
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,320
Speaker 2: going to make you the most happy, And so taking

940
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 2: smaller risks like you said, and trying to experiment and

941
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 2: figure out it's better, I think, to take lots of

942
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,879
Speaker 2: small experiments than going balls to the wall in one

943
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 2: thing that you may.

944
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 1: Come to regret. I guess I'll get the new twenty

945
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: twenty four Bronco. That'll be me dipping my toes in

946
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 1: that's your toes, Like that's a massive commitment. Maybe running

947
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 1: on Touro for a day.

948
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 2: Which is a great way of dipping your toes. I

949
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 2: totally agree there. I think my big takeaway is going

950
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 2: to be when he was discussing not full money transparency,

951
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 2: but translucency, and what he was getting at by highlighting

952
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 2: that was the fact that we need to have certain

953
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 2: amounts of money within our within our relationships where there's

954
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,720
Speaker 2: money that's not necessarily accounted for because it not only

955
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 2: is it going to lead to you having fewer just

956
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 2: petty disagreements and arguments. But he writes about this in

957
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 2: his in his book, but it allows you just to

958
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 2: even buy gifts for each other, right, like if you

959
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 2: don't have to, if it's so water tight of a

960
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 2: financial system, Well, how do you account for some of

961
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 2: the more fun ways that you would even spend money

962
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 2: on each other. But it just demonstrates a level of

963
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 2: trust as well. And at the core of every relationship

964
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 2: has it's got to be trust. And this is just

965
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 2: you don't want to be put under a heat lamp

966
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 2: for like a twenty five dollars spend no, especially when

967
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 2: you're like, but it's a gift for us, keeping secret

968
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 2: you know exactly, you end up coming to oh sorry

969
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: about that, coming to regret it. But I think it's

970
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 2: just a great small step towards demonstrating to each other

971
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 2: that there is a level of trust that goes beyond

972
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 2: just money and a small amount that you might want

973
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 2: to spend on your own without questions every single month.

974
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 2: But I really like that the financial translucency as opposed

975
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 2: to the full transparency goes.

976
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: My big take, I think there's a lot to learn

977
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: from this conversation. If you are in a relationship with

978
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: somebody and you want to understand that better, you want

979
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: to understand yourself better. You want us to understand your trajectory

980
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: and where you're going better, and how to get to

981
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: the places you want to be. There's just so much

982
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: great stuff, including instead of calling it a budget, called

983
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: a spending plan. What is it that you're you're aiming for? Together?

984
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 1: Just so much good advice, And it's those small things

985
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: that it seems insignificant. I think when you maybe on

986
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 1: its face, but I do think the outside impact of

987
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 1: even just the change in terminology that you use is

988
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: can can be significant.

989
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, man, words matter. So let's get to our

990
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 2: beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode. This

991
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,399
Speaker 2: was a Vienna Lagger from High Grain Brewing Company and

992
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: it was donated to the show by Mike and Christy.

993
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 2: What were your thoughts on this beer, Joel?

994
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: So, I know in my brain that beer doesn't quench

995
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: your thirst, but this beer felt like it did to me.

996
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: It was it was light, it was zippy or agel.

997
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:53,919
Speaker 1: Maybe we need to get you some water. I'm gonna

998
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:55,879
Speaker 1: crush this water right after this recording. No, I mean

999
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 1: it's a kind of beer. You know, they have like

1000
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: a lot more beers is what people call it. And

1001
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: this feels like the kind of be if you mow

1002
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: the lawn on like a hot summer, say, which we're

1003
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: not too far away from this is the kind of

1004
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 1: beer I would like. I would just down and then

1005
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 1: I would crush the cane against my head like a

1006
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 1: frat boy. And I don't think I've ever done that before,

1007
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: but I would be okay, I would have gone too far.

1008
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know. That's that's how you want to

1009
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 2: treat it.

1010
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 1: Go for it, man. I would say it.

1011
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 2: Was very bready, like it had a whole, not like

1012
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 2: Bretta nomioces. This is a Vienna lager, so I guess

1013
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 2: this is sort of like a German style logger. But

1014
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,720
Speaker 2: I feel like it was like the definition of what.

1015
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: Beer tastes like.

1016
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 2: Tom It's got like wheat on the label here, so

1017
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 2: it makes me think of like amber. Waves of grain

1018
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 2: got me feeling patriotic. Definitely enjoyed it, even though it's

1019
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 2: not in America style. But Mike and Christy, we really

1020
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 2: appreciate you, Alison in this one our way. It was

1021
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: clean and refreshing, and it quinched Joel's thirst. Yes it did,

1022
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 2: but that's gonna be it for this episode. We'll make

1023
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 2: sure to link to the Scott's site as well as

1024
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 2: where you can check out his book up in our

1025
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,240
Speaker 2: show notes on the website at out to money dot com.

1026
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:03,240
Speaker 2: But Buddy, that's gonna be it for this episode until

1027
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 2: next time. Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,