1 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: Body backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's a well worn 2 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 1: adage that talks about death by a thousand cuts. It 3 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: implies that it's slow, it's painful, something that no one 4 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: would ever want to endure. For years I handle cases 5 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: involved in sharp instruments. I have to say that, in 6 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: all of my years as a death investigator, I don't 7 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: believe I've ever encountered a case involving this many staff 8 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: wounds and so many unanswered questions. I'm talking about twenty, 9 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: not a thousand, but twenty cuts. The case of Ellen Greenberg. 10 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this his body bags. Today. 11 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: I'm joined by my friend Jackie Howard, who's the executive 12 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: producer of Crime Stories. Would Nancy Grace Jackie, wan't you 13 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: tell us about this case? Joe Ellen Greenberg was a 14 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: bride to be. She had just sent out the safety 15 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: dates for her upcoming wedding. By all accounts, she was 16 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: excited about this wedding. Her fiance and living boyfriend went 17 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: to the gym in their apartment complex. He came back 18 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: up and found the door locked. At that time, he 19 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: began beating on the door, calling, texting, but Ellen did 20 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: not answer. He tried to get into the door. That 21 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: fiance finally manages to break the door down, And I'm 22 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: sure most people are thinking, why didn't you just use 23 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: a key? The door had a lock on it, like 24 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: you have at an hotel that has a bar that 25 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: swings across the opening of the door to make it 26 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: impossible to open the door from the outside even if 27 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: you have a key. So he's trying to get in. 28 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: Ellen does not answer. He finally manages to break the 29 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: door down. Once he gets inside, he finds Ellen Greenberg 30 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: on the floor. She has been stabbed multiple times twenty 31 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: as you said, and the knife is still embedded in 32 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: her chest. Nine one one was called service personnel come 33 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: and as the determination of what happened to Ellen Greenberg 34 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: has made and it's determined to be a suicide. You know, Jackie, 35 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: we're talking about a young woman, healthy, fit woman. She's 36 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: a school teacher, has got her entire life ahead of her. 37 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: Seemingly she's enjoying life like you had mentioned, she's excited 38 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: about her upcoming nupteals. You know, she's taking the time 39 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: to send out Save the date cars. She's been living 40 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: with this guy for a while, they're making plans, and 41 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: he goes the gym and comes back and after he 42 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,679 Speaker 1: breaks the door down, he finds her on the floor 43 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: suffering from this many wounds. I gotta tell you, Jackie, 44 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: I in in over the course of my career, I 45 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:11,119 Speaker 1: don't ever recall working a case where I had an 46 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: individual that had self inflicted sharp force injuries at at 47 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: this number. I mean, this is almost an unimaginable number 48 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: that we're talking about twenty because you know, you begin 49 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: to think, how can anyone endure that level of pain? 50 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: I mean, we all know what it's like to cut ourselves, 51 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: cut ourselves on a piece of paper even and it stings. 52 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: Can you imagine driving a knife blade in into your 53 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: body this many times? And this is this is a 54 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: curious thing. The knife wounds are not simply what you 55 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: might think, just like into the abdomen or maybe a 56 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: single time into the chest. We're talking about multiple injuries 57 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: on not just the chest but also on the back. Now, 58 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: how do how does that work? I'm trying to understand 59 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: this and in to her neck as well. And one 60 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: of the things that was discovered at autopsy was the 61 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: fact that the knife had actually penetrated the cervical spinal 62 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: column right at about the C one or C two 63 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: level and had actually actually penetrated and touched and brushed 64 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: up against the spinal cord. Now, this is almost an 65 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: unimaginable feat and I don't know that there's any way 66 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: that you can kind of do the arithmetic on here 67 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: to make it come out right. Let me jump in 68 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: here and get just a little explanation for folks described 69 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: for me where exactly the C one and C two 70 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: area is. If if folks will at home, just think 71 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: about the first cervical vertebra that you have is commonly 72 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: it's got an interesting name. A lot of people aren't 73 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: aware of it. The very first cervical vertebra that we 74 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: have is actually called the Atlas. And just imagine, you 75 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: know from mythology, that gigantic man that's that's holding up 76 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: the earth. I'm sure that many people have seen that 77 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: Atlas was his name, and that you know, I think 78 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: that early anatomous. They felt like, well, that's that's a 79 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: great representation. People can understand that I need it. I'm 80 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: kind of a simple minded fellow. So if I'm thinking 81 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: about something holding something up, I'm thinking about that C one. 82 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: That's that first cervical vertebra that's actually supporting the head, 83 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: all right, and everything that we do, all of our 84 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: actions are dictated by our head and our brain. So 85 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: it's a critical area. As a matter of fact. It's 86 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: so critical that when you look at that area C one, 87 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: C two, and C three, that's where our brain stem 88 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: kind of comes down it. It's it's the gateway to 89 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: our autonomic nervous system. And what folks don't understand that 90 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: that's that's what controls our respirations, that's what controls our heartbeat. 91 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: It's the hub of everything, kind of the primal brain, 92 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: those things that that occur without us thinking about it. 93 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: You're talking directly at the base of the skull, at 94 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: the back of the neck. Yeah, we're We're right at 95 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: the base of the skull in this particular case, Jackie. 96 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: And that's that's one of the things that's so troubling. Now, 97 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: I'll put it to you this way. If you were 98 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: let's just put in the context of say, if you 99 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: were a professional killer, uh, if you were looking to 100 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: take someone out, Okay, that is a primary area where 101 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 1: you're almost guaranteed, say, if you're firing a gun for 102 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: a kill shot, because you know that you're gonna you're 103 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: gonna take them out in that split second of time. 104 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: And the fact that she had this injury there is significant. 105 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: It's very significant because you you think about this and 106 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: you say, well, how in the world could anybody recover 107 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: from that type of injury to go on and continue 108 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,559 Speaker 1: to stab himself. Remember, that's only one of twenty stab 109 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: wounds that she sustained one and in addition to that 110 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: stab wound that we've just reflected upon, she's also got 111 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: a real nasty gash on the back of her head. 112 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: It's kind of a if you'll think of a half 113 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: moon or a quarter moon, it's it's kind of elliptical 114 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: in shape, kind of an odd, an odd injury, and 115 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: it it appears, according to what the autopsy report was saying, 116 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: that the edges what we call the margins of that 117 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: injury are clean, which more than likely indicates that this 118 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: was generated by an edged weapon. So, you know, you 119 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: think about how can someone endure this kind of trauma? 120 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: And upon further examination of Ellen's body, when you begin 121 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: to look at her arms and her legs, there are other, 122 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, contusions, little bruises that are on her body. Now, 123 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: the pathologist says that they're resolving in nature, so he 124 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: doesn't go into great detail relative to to how distant 125 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: they might be in the past or how recent they are. 126 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: But there's one major thing that is left out in 127 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: this autopsy report that I've discovered that in cases I've 128 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: been involved in, is essential relative to someone's ability to 129 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: handle a weapon or handle a knife in this particular case, 130 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: and that is arm lengths. You know, just think about it. 131 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: We all don't have the same length arms, do we. 132 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: You know, you think about the measurement from your shoulder 133 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: to your elbow, and from your elbow to your wrist, 134 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: and from your wrist to the tips of your fingers. 135 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: All of that equates into, uh, this thought of what 136 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: is your ability to wield a knife in order to 137 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: self inflict an injury? And you have to look at 138 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: the injuries that Ellen had on her body. How is 139 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 1: it that you can take a knife and literally drive 140 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: it into your own back And you have to think, well, 141 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 1: maybe you could do that once, maybe you could do 142 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 1: it twice, But then you think all of the pain 143 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: associated because once you've driven it into those areas once 144 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: you have made contact with your skin, You've you've cut 145 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: through nerves, you've cut through the muscle, and you have 146 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: literally gone to bone at that point. How much pain 147 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: is associated with You're gonna tell me, you're gonna do 148 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: that over and over and over again. I don't think so. 149 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: I mean, the individual that would be capable of self 150 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: inflicting this kind of injury would, in my estimation at least, 151 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: have to be a raving psychotic. And there is no indication, 152 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: no indication whatsoever that Ellen Greenberg suffered from any kind 153 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: of acute psychosis whatsoever. I mean, this poor young lady. 154 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: She had anxiety. Who in the world doesn't have anxiety? 155 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: She had trouble sleeping at night. Well, she she was 156 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 1: taking Clinais a PAM. Do you realize how many people 157 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: in our population take Clinaise apam? And there is no 158 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: association between clinais a PAM and psychotic behavior that I've 159 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: been able to find in the literature. Everybody has trouble 160 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: sleeping every now and then. She's got a lot on hers, 161 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: she teaching in public schools, she's you know, planning a 162 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: wedding and so in that since there's no evidence to 163 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: indicate that she's in it some kind of frenzied mental 164 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: state where she could inflict these kind of insults to 165 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: her body, and not just these kinds of insults, but 166 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: to continue to do it over and over and over 167 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: again until finally she takes this single edged serrated knife, 168 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: now that's that's a stake knife, just so that you 169 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: were clear, and buries it in her chest where they 170 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: find it at the scene. And just so people can 171 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: visualize this, if you, if you have access to a 172 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: dollar bill, take that dollar bill out. Okay, look at it. 173 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: I mean look at the face of it. From the 174 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: left side of it to just pass George Washington's head, 175 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: that's ten centimeters. That's how deep this knife was buried 176 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: in her. So you you think about that and think 177 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: about all of the pain associated with that. It really 178 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: is a head scratcher, Jackie. I want to take a 179 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: step back to something that you mentioned a minute ago. 180 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: I hadn't never thought of arm length in relation to 181 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: this case, although obviously it is it is a very 182 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: important part. But what I was thinking about was flexibility. 183 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm very lucky to be able to scratch 184 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: the back of my neck when it you know, or 185 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: the back of my shoulder blades when I have an 186 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: itch let alone, to be able to hurt myself, to 187 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: stab myself in the back. Is it possible that, despite 188 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: your arm length, that your flexibility gives you the capability 189 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: to create these kinds of injuries? Jackie, I gotta say, 190 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: that's an excellent question. You begin to think about this, 191 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: and it's like, Okay, you know, if you are that flexible, 192 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: all right, Let's say she's in tip top physical shape. 193 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: Maybe she does yoga, she can stretch, she can be 194 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: in I mean, she probably do a lot better than 195 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: than my old body could do. Uh. And you think 196 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 1: about doing this maybe once to be able to manipulate 197 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: a knife in everybody at home kind of think about 198 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: how you would have to hold a knife and or 199 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: to inflict this injury. So you would have to turn 200 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: the knife so that the tip is facing your your face, 201 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: the tip of your looking down, the long axis of 202 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: the blade blade edge is probably up, and then you 203 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: would have to take it and and as as your 204 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: elbow binds, drive it into your shoulder blades, down your 205 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: back near your spinal column, into the back of your head. 206 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: Even if you try to do this into the back 207 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: of your head. That's that's hard to do. You would 208 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: have to be tremendously flexible. And the one thing that 209 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: that folks might not understand or grasp all the while 210 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 1: that you're doing this. Every time you make another little cut, 211 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 1: another little nick in your body, your pain center is screaming, 212 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: screaming over and over again. You know, don't do this. 213 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: Your body is trying to don't do it. Don't do it. 214 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: Is too much pain associated with don't do it. But 215 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: yet you can tinue to do it. And you you 216 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: are able to be this nimble and this flexible in 217 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: order to facilitate this over and over and over and 218 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: over again. It's absolutely mind blowing. That's why myself and 219 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: a lot of other colleagues of mine that have taken 220 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: a look at this case that are forensics folks, we 221 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: we don't understand how, how, how plausible this could be 222 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: that someone could actually do this and self inflict these 223 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: insults to their body. But you know, there's really no 224 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: clear answers to this case. One of the fascinating things 225 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 1: is this when the autopsy was completed, it was determined 226 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: that she had stabbed herself. According to the M E. 227 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: In several vital areas, I mean areas in her body 228 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: that would absolutely lead lead to death. She's got both 229 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: eyes of her chest cavity and her lungs are filled 230 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: with blood. Okay, So that means that somewhere along the 231 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: way her ability to respire has been compromised. So her 232 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: chest cavity is filling up with blood, and that's compromising 233 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: the lungs ability to inhalate and excellate. Also, interestingly enough, 234 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: in your in your heart, your heart actually sits in 235 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: a little sack that's called pericardium, percardial sack that's been nicked. Well, 236 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: not only has it been nicked, the aorta has been nicked. Uh, 237 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: And that's the major vessel that comes off of the 238 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: heart that supplies that supplies the rest of the the body 239 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: with oxygenated blood. That pericardial sack around the heart, it's 240 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: becoming engrossed with blood as well. So the heart's laboring 241 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: to beat all of this time. Not to mention, you've 242 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: got this spinal insult that has taken place with a knife, 243 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: and all the while you're only me that even though 244 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: she is this physically compromised, she's still capable of carrying 245 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: out the self inflicted insults to her body. I just 246 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: I can't see it happening. I don't understand how it's 247 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: even possible. Just supposed, for a second that you just 248 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: take your hand, an empty hand, and you move it 249 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: about your body twenty times. Think about that that requires 250 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: a certain amount of energy in order to facilitate this. 251 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,119 Speaker 1: You begin to think about this poor young woman, Ellen Greenberg. 252 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: She's holding a knife in her hand, a serrated edge knife, nonetheless, 253 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: And what they're trying to tell us is that as 254 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: she's hold in this knife, she is inflicting all of 255 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: these injuries to her body, compromising her lungs, her heart, 256 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: and potentially her brain. And yet she's able to keep 257 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: up this pace with a lack of oxygen eated blood. 258 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: Remember what the pathologist is saying in the autopsy report 259 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: is that steadily her her chest cavity, her chest cavity 260 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: on both sides, is filling up with blood. Her pair cardium, 261 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: which actually encases the heart, is filling up with blood. 262 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: They even make note of a superficial sub arachnoid hemorrhage 263 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: in her brain, which is putting pressure on her brain 264 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: all the while. And they expect us to believe that 265 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: she could facilitate inflicting all of these injuries upon herself 266 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: while all the while just so slowly depriving herself of 267 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: much needed oxygenated blood. I gotta tell you, I'm just 268 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: not buying it. I don't see how it's physically possible 269 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: for her to have done this in her apartment. Are 270 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: all alone. How is this possible that she could have 271 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 1: done it? And you know what, it's not like she 272 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: wandered over the entire apartment while she's doing it. Everything 273 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: that occurred appears to have occurred in one spot, and 274 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 1: that's in her kitchen. Joe. Let's talk about the forensics itself. 275 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 1: We've talked about the body and the wounds that she had, 276 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: but let's talk about the forensics of the room itself. 277 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: We know that the door was broken, we know that 278 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: Ellen was found with the knife still in her body. 279 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: She was found in a seated position, which I think 280 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: most people find odd. What strikes you about this scene? 281 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: I think the fact that she is seated in an 282 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: upright position. It almost seems unnatural, doesn't it. Uh? And 283 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:51,239 Speaker 1: and the fact that this boyfriend that discovered her, he 284 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: would have made note of that at that time that 285 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: she was in this position with a knife in her 286 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: chest and didn't lay her to the floor. You know, 287 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: they gave him a rective to start CPR on her, 288 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: but he's saying, she's got a knife in her chest. 289 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: Can you imagine this? And it should It was probably 290 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: a horror show in this environment. There's probably blood all 291 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: over the floor, it's all over her. Obviously it's gonna 292 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: be on her hands and this knife. I've actually seen 293 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: the pictures of the knife. The blood is just encrusted 294 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 1: around the handle of the knife as well as on 295 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: the surface of the blade as well. They had to 296 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: remove it at autopsy, so you begin to think about this, 297 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: it seems almost unnatural. But one of the really curious 298 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: things about this, Jackie, is that we know that gravity 299 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: is a constant force in the universe. It impacts our 300 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: bodies everywhere we go. One of the interesting things that 301 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: was noted about Ellen's body is that she actually had 302 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: a streak of blood that was coming out of her 303 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: ear that get this was traveling from front to back, 304 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: so that if if it's it would violate the laws 305 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: of nature. It's almost as if she had sustained an 306 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: injury while laying back, the blood came out of her 307 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 1: ear and dripped down to the floor, and then she 308 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: sat up and left this blood stained uh mark on 309 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: her ear. And that's that's just not possible. It almost 310 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 1: implies that some way, in some way, her body may 311 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: have been manipulated. And that's why it's so key that 312 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: when they arrived at the scene, what exactly did they 313 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: find relative to her body and the remainder of the scene. 314 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: You know, what, how long had she been down? Because 315 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 1: the timeline here is crucial. What to what degree had 316 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 1: postmortem changes begin to take place in Ellen's body? Well, 317 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: was the temperature of her body when the investigators first 318 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: got there, was she and riger mortis? Because that takes 319 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: a very specific amount of time to set in. Did 320 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: she have lybra morris where blood had settled? Remember she 321 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: was in a seated position, all right, So that would 322 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: indicate that if she had lybra mortis in her body, 323 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: that is the settling the blood where the the skin 324 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: actually changes color because of congestion, deepended congestion we call it, 325 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,959 Speaker 1: it would have settled to the backs of her legs 326 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: and her buttocks would have been touching the floor, and 327 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 1: so you would, it would be really, really purple, livacious, 328 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: as they call it. So I'd be very interested to 329 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: know was there any lybra mortis on her shoulder blades 330 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: or on her lower back that would indicate that at 331 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: some point in time she had been laying on her back. 332 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: So all of this is key, it just doesn't necessarily 333 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: marry up. So let's have a little bit more about 334 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: the room itself. The door was locked, there was one 335 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: way in or out. Ellen did not live on the 336 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: ground floor, so there was a very small balcony, but 337 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: it was not like a balcony that you would go 338 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: out side and sit and you know, hang out with 339 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: friends and talk or have dinner. It's a very small balcony. 340 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: There's only one way in or out of this room, 341 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: and the door is locked. Jackie, that's a good point. 342 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: I've always imagined this, this uh, this apartment to look 343 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: somewhat like, uh, maybe an extended stay suite that you 344 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: would find out on the road in a hotel. And 345 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 1: the one thing it has in common is one of 346 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: these interior swing locks. And I'm sure that many people 347 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: that are listening have had access to these. You know 348 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: it it's got the one little bar that's attached to 349 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: the door itself, and then it's got this kind of 350 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: gate that swings over that one little bar, And if 351 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: you try to open the door, even after the dead 352 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: bolt is off and you kind of swing that, that 353 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: little bar catches on that handle on that on that 354 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: swing and it prevents it from opening any further. That 355 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: was physically in place, according to the boyfriend, when he 356 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: came to enter the apartment. As a matter of fact, 357 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: he reports getting rather upset. Whether he's texting her, you know, 358 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: he's saying, look, don't you know, don't be playing around 359 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: or whatever it was that he had stated, let me in, 360 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: let me in. I don't know what's going on, And 361 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: of course he eventually had to force his way into 362 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: the apartment. How is this possible with the swing lock, Uh, 363 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: that this would have been in place, he could not 364 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: have gotten in. And we've got a woman that is 365 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: essentially seated in the kitchen that has sustained twenty stab wounds. 366 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: But to my account, it would seem that it's not 367 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: possible for to for her to have self inflicted these wounds. Jackie, 368 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: I just don't see how that's plausible. There's only one 369 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: way into this place. You've got a single entrance in 370 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: an interior hallway. Uh. I don't see anybody leaping off 371 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: of that balcony uh down out of this multi story building. 372 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: I think that they probably wind up breaking their ankles 373 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: or bringing their leg How is it possible that someone 374 00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: could have come and gone without them being seen, Jackie, 375 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: I don't know that there's necessarily any clear answers uh 376 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: in the in the case involving Ellen Greenberg's death, But 377 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: I can tell you this, I know that there's somebody 378 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: out there that does want want answers, and that's her 379 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 1: mom and dad, because for ten years now they've been 380 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: searching for someone to tell them definitively what happened on 381 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: that day that their daughter passed away. Joe, You're absolutely right. 382 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: The Greenbergs have been fighting for a very long time 383 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: now to get this ruling of suicide changed. They have 384 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: been to court, they have filed motions, they have done depositions, 385 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: and we know that in those depositions there were some 386 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: things brought up that that really raises questions about whether 387 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: this finding is accurate. What were those jokes? The most 388 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: significant thing, Jackie, is that upon further reflection, there was 389 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: a another pathologist who was working for the medical examiner, 390 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: the same medical examiner's office that did Ellen's exam. Let's 391 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: just go blow you away. Remember that that injury that 392 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: we talked about that was involving the C one, C two, 393 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: and C three cervical spawn. Well, when this mythologist looked 394 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 1: at this, she she saw something very interesting, the fact 395 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: that when this knife entered that area, that critical area 396 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: that literally dictates um the quality of life that we're 397 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: going to have. During the course of a deposition, she 398 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: revealed that it was her opinion that this insult this 399 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: injury that Ellen sustained to the back of neck, to 400 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: their spinal column. She stated that there was no hemorrhage. 401 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: There was no hemorrhage in that specific area. You have 402 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: to factor that with this. The head and the neck 403 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: are arguably the most vascular areas in our body, and 404 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 1: what that means is is that there is more blood 405 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: supply probably going to that area of the human body 406 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: because the brain requires so much oxygen. So you're gonna 407 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: tell me that you're going to insert a knife into 408 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: this area and there is no significant hemorrhage surrounding the 409 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: spinal column. Well, the thing that she came up with 410 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: this other pathologist that did this examination, was that yeah, 411 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: she got stabbed in that area, but because there was 412 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: no hemorrhage, she doesn't believe that this happened in life. 413 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: She thinks that it was post mortem. That means that 414 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: it occurred after death. Because, as we know, if you 415 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: sustain a bump, a contusion, a bruise, if you sustain 416 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: a laceration, an incized wound with an edged weapon or 417 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: a gunshot wound, and you're alive at the time that 418 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: you sustain those injuries to your body, you're gonna bleed. 419 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg, according to this pathologist, didn't bleed in that 420 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: specific area, and that specific area is key to this Jackie. 421 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: It's key because in most people that would be an 422 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: area that would be so affected by this type of 423 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: injury that it would shut you down. We had talked 424 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: about already that that's that's where the autonomic nervous system 425 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: kind of roots out of. It comes up out of 426 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: that the base of the of the spinal cord right there. 427 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: It's critical to everything that we do. So any any 428 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: the slightest little insult in that area, the slightest little 429 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: injury can be very impactful. And the fact that there 430 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: was no hemorrhage in there, according to this pathologist, indicates 431 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: that this injury may very well have occurred after Ellen 432 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: had passed away. So that leaves us with a big question, 433 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: doesn't it. How can a young woman who has reportedly 434 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: been stabbing herself over and over and over again, according 435 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: to the medical examiner, how can she sustain an injury 436 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: like this to her neck after she's deceased? How is 437 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: that even physically possible. I've been around a lot of 438 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: dead bodies in my life, Jackie, over the course of 439 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: my career, thousands of them, and I have never seen 440 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: someone that is deceased to self inflicting injury. So that 441 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: that begs the question, how did this occur? And by 442 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: whose hand? And so that's that's the kind of question 443 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: that the family has asked, and that's the kind of 444 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: question that the family deserves an answer to. But you 445 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: know what's really sad about this, Jackie, is the fact 446 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: that this mythologist, she never filed a report. Here the 447 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: here the family is there asking for answers. I'd say 448 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: that this is a a pretty big answer. This is 449 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: a big piece of information from an investigative standpoint that 450 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 1: the family should have known immediately. It took a deposition 451 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 1: in order to pull this dat out. So Joe, I 452 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: am by no means I'm not even a forensics beginner. 453 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: I don't even have to go that far because all 454 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: I have to look at, and I think most lay 455 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: people all they have to look at, is the fact 456 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: that Ellen Greenberg had twenty stab wounds that were supposedly 457 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: self inflicted. And I'm standing here on the outside looking in, 458 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: going there is no way that you can stab yourself 459 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: twenty times and it be considered a suicide. So explain 460 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: it to me, Joe, how this could have been ruled 461 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: a suicide to begin with? Let me correct jump something there, 462 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: and Jackie, this this case was not originally ruled a suicide. 463 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: In the first iteration of this thing that the m 464 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: E had come out and said that they thought that 465 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: it was a homicide. So what what changed along the 466 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: continuum here to make them suddenly doing about face say oh, well, 467 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: it's it's not a homicide. This is this is obviously 468 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: a suicide. Obviously a suicide, Okay, obviously no equivocation. This 469 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: is a suicide. A suicide involving twenty self inflicted stab wounds. 470 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: That that's obvious that this is a suicide, and you know, 471 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: it defies I think on many levels logic that this 472 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: could in fact be be a suicide because we're talking 473 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: about a young woman who has not expressed any kind 474 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: of what psychiatrists refer to as suicidal ideation. And yeah, 475 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: I know that people do on occasion, uh take their lives, 476 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: and they haven't sent up any signals, but in this 477 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: particular case, she seems as though that she was rather 478 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: stable in the world that she was existing in. And yeah, 479 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: she has suffered from anxiety, but she wasn't stark, raving 480 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: mad where she would take as where she would take 481 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: a steak knife and plunge it into her body twenty times. 482 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: It just it doesn't it doesn't balance. This equation doesn't 483 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: balance at the end. What's of striking about this case 484 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: is that not only was she in a lock department 485 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: and the boyfriend had to make his way through this 486 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: gate lock on the door, and that she had blood 487 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: streaming out of her ear that's consistent with her laying 488 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: on her back, and that she has taken a steak 489 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: knife and plunged it into her body twenty times, and 490 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: then to boot leaves the knife embedded in her own chest. 491 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: It gets it gets a bit more murky because you know, initially, 492 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: as as I've stated, the the pathologist had actually originally 493 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: ruled this as in fact a homicide, but then they 494 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: did at about face and changed it to suicide. One 495 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: other odd thing is that out of all the people 496 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: in the world that the medical examiner could have referred 497 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: this case to UH, they referred this case for further 498 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: examination by one of the most renowned UH neuropathologist um 499 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: in American history, and that's Dr Lucy Rourke, who's up 500 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. The pathologist claims that Dr Lucy Rourke actually 501 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: examined ellen spinal cord. Well, guess what. Dr Rourke says 502 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: that she never was involved in this case, and this, 503 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: of all cases, is one that you would want to 504 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: have a neuropathology consult on because of the injury to 505 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: the spinal cord. She says she never saw the case. 506 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: So that adds an other layer. And I think that 507 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: now we can begin to see why the parents would 508 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,479 Speaker 1: be so suspicious about this case, why they have so 509 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: many questions that have remained after a decade unanswered, or 510 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: at least the answers that they've been given are not satisfactory. 511 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs