1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: Throw UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello, 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: name is Nolan. And then this is stuff they don't 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: want you to know, and it just always thank you 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. You know, we've been doing 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: a lot of interviews recently, guys, Yeah, we have. I'm 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: enjoying the space. I guess. We wonder how you guys 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: feel about it, the space of interviews and interview space. 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: I gotta say, haven't. I've been enjoying it too, especially 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: when we get to learn new things and talk to 13 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: interesting individuals. Right. Yeah. So in previous episodes, we spoke 14 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: with the author Brian Tooey about sports conspiracies. Today we 15 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: are interviewing alow named Matt Johnson, who is the director, writer, 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: and star of a film coming out today. As if 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: you're listening to this the day it comes out, uh, 18 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: today September six, as we record this episode. Yes, it's 19 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: called Operation Avalanche, and it's it's very difficult for me 20 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: to describe everything that this movie encompasses. Because it's a 21 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: movie about making a movie with people using their real names. 22 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: But it's complete fiction. It's incredible. Right here, here are 23 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: the facts. On July TwixT nine, the course of human 24 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: history fundamentally changed when Neil Armstrong became the first man 25 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: to set foot upon the Moon, and then Buzz Aldrin 26 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: did it a couple of minutes afterwards, right, and once 27 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: once these people went there that one time on the 28 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: Apollo eleven mission. Than the official story is that there 29 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: were five more missions, so total of six Apollo missions 30 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: with two astronauts making contact on the surface each time, 31 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: for a total of twelve people on the moon. And 32 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: then we stopped going to the moon. Right, Yeah, then 33 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: we stopped going to the moon. So I want to 34 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: ask you guys. Operation Avalanche is about how a moon 35 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: landing could have been hoaxed. So I want to ask 36 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: you guys, and we want to ask you audience members 37 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: to let us know what what do you guys think? 38 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: Do you guys think somebody faked the moon landing? I 39 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: hope it was Stanley Kubrick. According to the latest polls 40 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: that I could find on this, roughly seven percent of 41 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: the American voting public believes that the moon landing was hoaxed. However, 42 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: that belief in a hoaxed moon landing is pretty popular 43 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: in other countries as well, so it's it's more common there. Well, 44 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna just hop into our interview with Matt right now, 45 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: and then uh, we'll come back at the end and 46 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: see if our see if anybody has had their opinion. Swade, 47 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 1: what do you think? Yeah? I love that idea. Uh. 48 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: Quick note, Noel, you were not with us for this interviews, 49 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: but you're here with us now through the magic of 50 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: time travel audio. Time traveling audio. We have an actual 51 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: time machine here in the house stuff works offices that 52 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: we only use in cases of emergencies like this because 53 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: it operates on blood and blood magic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 54 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: I getta put the magic after and quick caveat at 55 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 1: the top here there are spoilers inside of this interview, 56 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 1: so listen with caution and go see the movie. And 57 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: here we go, ladies and gentlemen, we are here with 58 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: Matt Johnson, the director, co writer and star of Operation Avalanche. 59 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: So Matt, we have to know man what lad you guys, 60 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: specifically you and your co writer down this moon landing 61 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: rabbit hole? Well, When we first started, the plan was 62 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: just to make another fake documentary about some great historical 63 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: moment um, because we had such success of our first film, 64 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: The Dirties, and we really really really really like that 65 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: formal approach of sort of the oriole fake documentary by 66 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: neophite filmmakers like that that was just so interesting. Um. 67 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: And as we started looking at different moments in history 68 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: to kind of do this about, it just became so 69 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: obvious so quickly that the moon Landing, if it was faked, 70 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,559 Speaker 1: is like the most incredible movie ever made. And so 71 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: if you're trying to make a story about people making movies, 72 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: then why not have them make the greatest movie ever 73 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: seen that nobody actually knows the movie? Um, and it's 74 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: it was almost as soon as it was mentioned, oh 75 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: let's do the fake moon landing, like that was it. 76 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: Then we were good, Like we just knew and and 77 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: oddly enough, just that idea was so powerful that it 78 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: it gave us energy to just keep going and going 79 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: and going and going when when we thought this is 80 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: this is ridiculous, Oh man, we can we can certainly 81 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: relate with that drive that you get when there's some 82 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: kind of mystery like that out there that it just 83 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: kind of hangs there in front of you like a carrot. 84 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: We we definitely understand that in our line of work. Yeah, 85 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: and it's so it's so clever for it to, uh, 86 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: for it to take that documentary format about the you know, 87 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: when you say it this way, Matt, it's it really 88 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: is the greatest movie ever made if the moon landings 89 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: are faked. And it's strange in the course of our research. Uh, 90 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: it's strange how this story has captivated people for nearly 91 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: half a century now and and and we have to 92 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: ask just to get get this uh elephant or lunar 93 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: rover in the room out of the way real quick. Uh. 94 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: Why do you think some people, some people believe that 95 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: the Apollo eleven moon landing was fake? I can tell you. Um. 96 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: I think one of the major reasons that that conspiracy 97 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: endures the way that many others are a bit more 98 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: laughable and are not nearly as popular, is because of 99 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: its innocence and the fact that there really are Although 100 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: there were some steaks to the Apollo mission, and it 101 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: was very important at a certain time, nowadays it almost 102 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: doesn't matter if they did go to the moon or 103 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: they didn't geo politically, like, there's no, it's not like 104 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: saying I believe that nine eleven was anast that job, 105 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: or saying and committing the fact that JFK was in 106 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: was assassinated, Like those have real consequences if they're true, 107 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: where they're not true, whereas the moon landing being faked 108 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: is just so goofy and it's just so it's almost 109 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: I mean, as you see in our film, like it's 110 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: just a great story if if that's true, like if 111 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: they didn't go to the moon and they faked it, 112 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: then that's a really amazing story. And it's not the 113 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: social cost for and you believe it is not quite 114 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: as high as saying, you know, you think George Bush 115 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: had something to do with the not eleven attacks, Like 116 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: you just you just don't pay the same price for 117 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: believing it. And it's more fun to believe. Um. Not 118 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: me personally, I do not think the moon landing was fake. 119 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: That all. Nobody on my team does, not even a 120 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: little bit um. But that's actually one of the reasons 121 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: why we wanted to make the movie was because we thought, 122 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: how wicked would it be if we can make a 123 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: movie that is convincing enough to make people think the 124 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: moon landing was faked, even though that's not what we believe. 125 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: Like that was just such an amazing like trick and 126 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: an amazing challenge for us um um. But I guess 127 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: those two ideas are not really that related. But as 128 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: I said, that's why I think it enfus and what 129 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: people believe it. Also it comes from a very American 130 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: sort of cowboy notion of I know better than my government, 131 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: which is something very very popular. Right the government is 132 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: lying to me that everything I'm being told is fake. 133 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: I think I think that also played into a big time. 134 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: I think you're going to see more people in this 135 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: coming election cycle talking about this type of mass government lying, 136 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: mass government conspiracies that you ever have ever. Yeah, I 137 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: absolutely agree with that. I think that's a I think 138 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: that is a fair and accurate prediction. Uh. One thing 139 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,119 Speaker 1: that we discussed that we really enjoyed about the film 140 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: when we were watching it is the biggest question for 141 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: any um, anybody applying critical thinking to that kind of 142 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory is how could thousands and thousands of people 143 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: keep a secret like this if it did happen for 144 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: so long? And Uh, we Matt Frederick here, maybe you 145 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: can talk a little bit about this from our discussions 146 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: and uh what we thought was so clever about how 147 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: the film handles this. Oh yeah, absolutely. This is the 148 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: point that we've grappled with when discussing this conspiracy in particular. 149 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 1: And Dude, when you give your c I a presentation 150 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: and you're explaining how you're going to make the whole 151 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: thing happen, and there's only a handful of people that 152 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: are going to have to be involved, including the astronauts, 153 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: I was just going, oh wow, I've never had someone 154 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: pose it in that way. Um, that you wouldn't have 155 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: to have mission control involved, like you only have to 156 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,719 Speaker 1: convince the astronauts to to read the scripts. That was 157 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: our biggest challenge. I was trying to figure out how 158 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: to make that part of the conspiracy believable because nowhere 159 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: where we looked online even were people who are really 160 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: into this conspiracy had an effective answer for that. Um. 161 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: And so coming up with that and figuring out how 162 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: like a like a junior guy in the CIA would 163 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: be able to pull something like that off was one 164 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: of our big achievements. Like we were really really happy 165 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: with that, and I mean although it seems insane, it 166 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: does have a lot of credibility to it. Um as 167 00:09:57,800 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: I said, like, we we spent a lot of time 168 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: at napp uh and it was important to us that 169 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: what Matt says the CIA is actually true. So speaking 170 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: of NASA, let's talk about the Johnson Space Center. Uh, 171 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: it looks like you're filming inside that facility and it 172 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: looks like you're interviewing people. Is that was that really 173 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: happening or is that on set? No? No, that's all real. 174 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: We we I mean, I was a grad student in 175 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: Toronto at the time, and we we contacted NASA and 176 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: said that we were making a documentary for school about 177 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, And we went down from Canada and 178 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: spent about a week there and we shot most of 179 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: the movie that you see at NASA in actual I mean, 180 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: we we we we we digitally turned into the Man 181 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: State uh Space Center, which it was at that time, 182 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: but we shot the whole thing in Galveston's all that 183 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: stuff and those are real NASA staff. They really have 184 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: the jobs that they say that they have. Like, that's 185 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: all completely real. That's insane. Yeah, that's that's Uh, that's 186 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: fascinating and that also, this isn't even a question but 187 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: more of a lead in. I want to commend you 188 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: on the pitch perfect visual tone it is. It is 189 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: exactly of the time, which I thought, I thought was fascinating, 190 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 1: and some earlier interviews you have talked a little bit 191 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: about the process of that filming. But while we're on 192 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: the subject of film itself, we have to ask why 193 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: do you think Stanley Kubrick is so important to the 194 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: context of this conspiracy. I think there's two really big 195 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: reasons why Stanley Kubrick is such a big deal when 196 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: it comes to conspiracies in general, but also the moon 197 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: landing conspiracy. The first one is he was insanely reclusive. 198 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: He was people already knew him as a secret keeper, 199 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: as an unbelievably secretive guy. He famously burned his two 200 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: thousand one sets once they finished shooting because he didn't 201 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: want people to have access to them like he did. 202 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: He had behavior that did make sense from a certain 203 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: point of view, but could be twisted in such a 204 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: way where you could go, Okay, this guy's operating at 205 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: a different level than the way people are imagine that 206 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: he does. And to the tour reputation that he had. 207 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: Um of pouring so much work into the things that 208 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: he did, I think allowed people to again think that 209 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: he could do the impossible. Like when new Stanley COOPERCK 210 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: movies were coming out of that time, they were always 211 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 1: pushing the boundaries technically of what could be done, um 212 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: in a way that no other filmmakers were nearly as 213 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: famous for doing. So. It just I think those two 214 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: elements came together very well to make him a central 215 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: figure in the in the moon Landing conspiracy. I mean, 216 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: and it didn't hurt that he was making two thousand 217 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: one at the exact same time. Yeah, and then he 218 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: burned the set. I mean, come on, who incidents? Are 219 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: you exactly exactly? Well, okay, so just let's continue on 220 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: the Cooper line here. Let's talk about Room two seven 221 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: and the Shining. We watched Room Truth at the seven 222 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: at tiff I think it was out in twenty eleven. 223 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not sure we saw it, but but 224 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: we went back to that a couple of times when 225 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: we were writing this Scoop movie. Um, just because it 226 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: wasn't the first time I've heard that theory, but it 227 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: was definitely the most eloquent combination of elements um that 228 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: I've never seen. I love that film awesome. Did you 229 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: also watch Capricorn one? Josh Bols and I had seen 230 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: Capricorn one well before that, mostly because it's such a 231 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: funny movie. But uh, but yeah, yeah, we we we 232 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: also watched. In fact, there's a lot of dialogue UM 233 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: in Operation Avalanche that's just straight uplifted from Capricorn one 234 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: if you look closely like we we tried to do 235 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: a lot of U writing references to that movie. Yeah, 236 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: I was going to call the momages there, some of 237 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: the visual shots too, of watching the moon landing on 238 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: the television's outside on the street. I mean, it's beautiful, 239 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 1: man it. I was seeing pictures of it as I'm 240 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: watching your film, was just going, oh, this is great man. No, 241 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: that takes us to another question or so. The movie 242 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: was shot in fourteen, but somehow you managed to interview 243 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: James E. Webb, who died as the research indicates in 244 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: and get an autograph from Stanley Kubrick, who died in 245 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: How how did the film achieve this? You know, it's 246 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: funny here the first person who's asking me about that 247 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: James Webb stuff, and uh and Yeah, that was something 248 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: we're really proud about it. But everybody just focuses on 249 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: the Kubrick I mean, obviously those are done with digital effects, 250 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: but um, the complexity with which we had to treat them, 251 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: because talking about extremely old celluloyd that were then putting 252 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: digital effects on and trying to combine the two together 253 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: made it almost impossible. But the genius who did it 254 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: as a guy named Tristan Zarafa, who is our VFX 255 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: supervisor and who made um, who made both those sequences 256 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: happen mostly from photographs the James Web stuff, and when 257 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: he retires as well. Um, it's uh, it was it 258 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: was news news footage that we got and then did 259 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: a ton of manipulation too to get me interacting with 260 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: those people, the family Kubrick piece. It was like six 261 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: months of work, and in fact, there's a whole article 262 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: in in this Moss movie Maker magazine about exactly how 263 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: we did it. But um, but that was the most 264 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: challenging thing on the film by far from a technical 265 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: point of view. I mean that was because again Kubrick 266 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: was was a recluse and he didn't let people film him, 267 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: especially during making two one, so we had no footage 268 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: to do that forest come trick on, so we had 269 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: to make it out of photographs and that was I mean, 270 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: Tristan like killed himself doing that. But but I mean 271 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: we're all unbelievably droud. I mean, Stanley Kubrick literally is 272 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: alive and walking and talking in in our movie. Just 273 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: so you know, and just for a little context, Ben 274 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: and I also make a video show where we had 275 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: at archival footage a lot and when when those scenes 276 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: come up, it just hit us really hard seeing the 277 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: amount of work that was going on screen. So let's 278 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: just let's keep on the technological advances in film production, 279 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: video production. UM, do you ever worry that if you 280 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: guys can achieve this kind of stuff? Uh, do you 281 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: worry that maybe the CIA or NASA could be working 282 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: on something similar to Operations Zipper? Right now? Well, I mean, 283 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: as I said originally with why I think this, uh, 284 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: this conspiracy had endured, Um, I actually don't think there's 285 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: enough of a reason for NASA to be lying to 286 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: the public at any level. Um. And and I can 287 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: tell you the reason why. And and actually I learned 288 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: this while I was at NASA, and I'm not sure, like, um, 289 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: what your take is on things like you know, NASA 290 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: hiding aliens or NASA hiding technology or any of these 291 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: types of things. But this explains things in a really 292 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: interesting way to me that made me go, oh, Okay, 293 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: there's no way NASA's hiding things, and it's there. It's 294 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: that NASA is unbelievably underfunded. They are They're they're literally 295 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: closing departments like every year, year over year. They're losing money, 296 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: um and and they're losing jobs, and it's because they 297 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: have a lot of trouble asking the government who funds 298 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: for more money. And in the nineties, I don't remember it, 299 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: but there was some kind of an alien scare or 300 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: like you know, in the news people are saying, oh wait, 301 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: there's some evidence that maybe there's some aliens, and NASA 302 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: wanted to investigate it, and the government gave them something 303 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: like a hundred million dollars, like they gave them so 304 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: much money just to check out this like traudulent news 305 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: story or like just this idea that maybe there was 306 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: alien life. And so the notion that NASA would be 307 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: in intentionally hiding things that they discover is so is 308 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: so suicidal, Like they would never ever do that because 309 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: if they found anything, any evidence of anything at all, 310 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: they would be the first people to go to the 311 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: New York Times and say, look what we found, just 312 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: because they need money, and they'd be so happy to 313 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: get funding because they discovered something good. Um. But ask 314 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: your question about like video technology and maybe the CIA 315 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: using it to like you know, fake you know wars 316 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: and like the kind of like wag the dog stuff. Um. Sure, 317 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: it seems like these days the governments don't need video 318 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: evidence to create, you know, environments with which to go 319 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: to war. I mean, there was no you know, smoking 320 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: gun like like the like it's like the weapons of 321 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: map destruction during the Iraq War. It's like, I don't 322 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: think that the c I need the CIA needs to 323 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: manufacture video evidence in the way that you would have 324 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: to if you're trying to take the moon lighting. I 325 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: think they have a lot simpler, more rudimentary ways to 326 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: fool people into doing stupid stuff. Right. Yeah, I'm with 327 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: you on that, when Matt, because the I think one 328 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: of the troubling things that constructs the I guess the 329 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: primordial soup from which some of these kind of conspiracies 330 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: birth is an environment of rampant distrust and in in 331 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: many ways a well earned distrust of some government agencies. 332 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: But the CIA and NASA are very, very, very different entities, 333 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: as most of our listeners know, Um yeah, yeah, and uh, 334 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: one thing, that one thing that got us, uh, our 335 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: audience and uh Matt, Matt, and our costol and myself, 336 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: all of us are fascinated by learning about the various 337 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: clandestine or underground operations by the CIA and other intelligence agencies. 338 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: And there are numerous CIA operations referenced in the film, 339 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: but Operation Avalanche is not one of them. So what's 340 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: the significance of the title there, Well, you know that 341 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: it's that bleeds into a whole other project that that 342 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: I'm making right now, which is a television series. And 343 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: I mean, for me to explain this, I mean you're 344 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: gonna think I'm insane, But we we titled the movie 345 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: Operation Avalanche one because I mean it was basically Matt 346 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: naming his own mission and thinking that that's a cool name. 347 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 1: But more importantly, that plays into a television series that 348 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: I'm making right now for Vice. Oh yeah, that's uh, 349 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: if if I'm correct, is that Nirvana the band in 350 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: the show the band the show? Yes, yeah, that's correct. 351 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: And in and in one of the episodes of Nirvana 352 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: the Band, the show, which is just a comedy series, 353 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: um My, me and my best friends sneak a movie 354 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,239 Speaker 1: into Sundance called Operation Avalanche. And it was just very 355 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: important that the movie be called Operation Avalanche. And again, 356 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: I know that sounds insane, but but oh man, the 357 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: reason that it was named exactly exactly that we're excited 358 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: to see it and to check it out because we're 359 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: huge comedy fans as well. Uh So we've explored some 360 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: of the we've explored some of the genesis or the 361 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: origin story for what became Operation Avalanche, and we just 362 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: found out a really cool, uh meta cognitive twist on it. 363 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 1: Um we we also, in the course of looking into 364 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: the ideas of moon landings being faked. Uh we also 365 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: ran into a question that a lot of people have asked, 366 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: and for me personally, it's up there with the same question, 367 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: like in order of importance, it's up that it's as 368 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: important as the question about how thousands of people could 369 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: keep a secret, and Operation Avalanche answers that. So with 370 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: such grace and elegance, my next question would be something 371 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: that a lot of our listeners have asked us, which 372 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,959 Speaker 1: is the following If if people did indeed land on 373 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: the Moon, then why did they stop going? Why were 374 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: there only the six missions with two astronauts on the 375 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: surface each time. Well, I mean that ties into exactly 376 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: what I was talking about before when it comes to 377 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: NASA and their funding, and that's that they were only 378 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: getting money because there was such a national interest in 379 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: going on that mission. There was a like the all 380 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: of America was tuned in to see America beat the 381 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: Russian space program. That's what everybody wanted. But then once 382 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: it was done, like nobody cared about the scientific ramifications 383 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: of that mission. To them, it was just a race. 384 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: And as soon as we've won I shouldn't say week, 385 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: I'm Canadian, but as soon as NASA had one, then 386 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the public interest vanished. And in fact, 387 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: I mean this is a famous story which I'm sure 388 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: you've heard before this, but like Apollo twelve, people were 389 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: calling into their television providers to complain that the live 390 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: broadcast of Apollo twelve was interrupting I love Lucy reruns, 391 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: so like people were so disinterested after they had landed 392 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: once that just the government saw absolutely no real like, 393 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: why would you be funding this multi billion dollar program 394 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 1: when when the public is I mean, it's not getting 395 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: you elected, it's not getting votes, it's not drawing eyeballs. 396 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: People just didn't care. Um. And that's why all of 397 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: a sudden emissions were seized because one I mean, if 398 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: you talk to NASA scientists, they have a very different opinion. 399 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: In fact, one of the cool things that I learned 400 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: when I was at Gallaston is that because they only 401 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: did those six missions, they actually didn't learn nearly as 402 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: much as they wanted to because, as one of them 403 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: told me, the Moon it's actually very variegated. It's an 404 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: extremely variegated surface. So they landed one specific spot, but 405 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: it's not uniform at all. They wanted to go all 406 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: around the Moon and find all like there's tons of 407 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:00,959 Speaker 1: stuff up there that they don't know what it is. 408 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: But they had to stop. Now what the scientific applications 409 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: of having a perfect geo map of the Moon would be, 410 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, um, But but they had to stop 411 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: because public interest died. It had nothing to do with 412 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: you know, like some conspiracy or like oh yeah, we 413 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,719 Speaker 1: can't keep this lie up anymore. In no way it was. 414 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: It was completely because the public had zero interest. And 415 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: I'm telling you you're gonna see this again, um in 416 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: the next I mean twenty years, as we start to 417 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: look at Mars and other planets. As soon as the 418 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: national interest tilts towards uh, what's that terraforming other planets 419 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: or or or or or interplanetary travel, you will see 420 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: a resurgence of funding and these missions. And it's it's 421 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: always about public eyeballs. What what does the voter want 422 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 1: to have happened? It's very rarely led by science. Well, 423 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, now we're seeing private interest in going back 424 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: to the Moon because of the of the helium three 425 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: intent on the Moon and trying to be able to 426 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: mind that in other minerals. So yeah, I mean, I'd 427 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: be interested to see how that kind of changes in 428 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: the next ten twenty years. It's quite possible that the 429 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: future of the future of our galactic exploration will be 430 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: driven by commercial interests, similar to the way that you know, 431 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: the Dutch East India company partnered up with its government 432 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: at the time to create a super powerful corporate interest. 433 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: And is it going to be good? Is it going 434 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: to be evil? Fruits? Right? Will we will we be 435 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: alive to find out? How quick will the timeline go? 436 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: You know, I'm sorry, I'm I'm at this point. I'm 437 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: just expounding on this because I believe wholeheartedly that, um, 438 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: the compelling interest for space exploration, for any sustained exploration, 439 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: is going to have to be commercial. At the point, Yeah, 440 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: we've lost We've lost that love man for exploration as 441 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: a public. So jumping back into operations that occur within 442 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: this film, there there are two points in the movie 443 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: where Operation Northwoods is mentioned. And a lot of people 444 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: who who who end up watching your movie may miss 445 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: some of the contexts with this or some of the 446 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: meta stuff you're playing with their um. But explain to 447 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: us what the context of Operation Northwoods is in the film. Sure, 448 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: Northwoods is a is a c I A UH mission 449 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 1: that went on I think from fifty nine forwards, UM, 450 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: and it was just recently be classified I think with 451 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: the last five years, maybe the last seven years it 452 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: was be classified UM and it was just another one 453 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: of those crazy, like you cannot believe it's happening CIA 454 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: missions from the nineteen sixties, which was specifically that they 455 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: were going to fake. They didn't call them terrorist attacks, 456 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: but they were going to fake terrorist attacks as though 457 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: they were done by the Cubans, and they were going 458 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 1: to use this to drum up support for an invasion 459 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: of Cuba. And Northwoods was a huge blanket operation that 460 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: and I mean, I'm not like a strollar on this stuff. 461 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: This is basically just what I learned from the research 462 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: for this movie I was making. But uh, within Operation 463 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 1: Northwoods were a whole bunch of other minor operations and 464 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: one of the ones that we referenced in our movie 465 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: was either Operation Dirty Trick or maybe Operation drop Kick. 466 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: I don't know which one it was, but it was crazy. 467 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: And if the idea was with mission with missiles based 468 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: out of Cuba, they were going to shoot down John 469 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: Glenn's rocket if something technically went wrong, so if I mean, 470 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: god knows how how furious they were, but I mean, 471 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: it's all in the mission. So if that first you know, 472 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: circles first man in space blockets from NASA went up 473 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: and had any kind of technical malfunction, the CIA was 474 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: going to intentionally shoot it down with missiles coming out 475 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: of Russia story out of Cuba, and blame it on 476 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: the Soviets, which is just like insane, but but really 477 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: set the stage well for a for why they would 478 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: want to fake the movement, and it helps our movie 479 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: quite a bit. Okay, now, I don't, man, I feel 480 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: like we're giving away spoilers like crazy for this, but 481 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: we'll we'll tell people about the spoilers in the beginning. 482 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: Basically see the movie then listen to this. Um. But Okay, 483 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: there's an action that you that you your character Matt Johnson, 484 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: the guy the agent, uh takes after cutting together all 485 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: of the documentary footage that you guys have shot throughout 486 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: the course of the movie, both of them, um, where 487 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: you bury a reel And I think, if I remember incorrectly, 488 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: there are a couple of different reels that you bury, 489 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: but one of them, uh, one of them is the 490 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: movie itself. And it just makes me think, you do 491 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: you think somewhere out there there's a reel of film 492 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: buried that has I don't know, another shot from the 493 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: Grassy Knoll or maybe the actual moon landing set. I mean, 494 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: I would love to think that. I mean, I think 495 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: the fact is that type of self reflexive making documentaries 496 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: about yourself and filming what you're doing was not in 497 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: the zeit gifts during that time in such a way 498 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: where somebody would think, oh, this is important. I don't 499 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: think people like, let's say that there was a conspiracy 500 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: to kill JFK and the people who were involved in that. 501 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: I thought it was important enough that they've documented, and 502 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: that just seems like such a stretch. Um, I wish 503 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: there wasn't be amazing. I mean there's yeah, there's such 504 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: a such an awesome like cashe to oh I just 505 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: found this. I think there's a there's a movie, what's 506 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: the movie with Nicholas Cage where he finds the photographs 507 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: at the very end. But it must be the rock. 508 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,479 Speaker 1: It must be the rock because he dealing with that 509 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: m I six agent. Yeah. Um, so like that that 510 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: that's so pulpy and so exciting that Uh, I hope 511 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: it's true. But I think Acam's Razors says, uh, there's 512 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: there's there's no way it'd be. It would be too crazy. 513 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: It would be it would be too crazy to essentially 514 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: incriminate oneself in that regard, right, unless you had a 515 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: very good reason, which which Matt has in in Operation Avalanche, 516 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: like he's doing it basically as a safety net. It's 517 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: almost an insurance policy. I can't imagine somebody doing that 518 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: from the inside without really really really having a reason 519 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: to do it. Um. Also, I mean I can tell 520 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: you from experience that burying film canisters like that that's 521 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: selling Lloyd would not laugh. It would be completely stripped, 522 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: would be it would be stripped because in order to 523 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: damage a lot of the frames of Operation Avalanche, like 524 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: our movie, we did bury them. And we wouldn't leave 525 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: things buried for more than sixteen hours before before the 526 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: asseton was completely eroded. So, oh wow, we're getting we're 527 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: getting some inside looks in here. Uh. We do want 528 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: our listeners to know that you can check this movie 529 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: out for yourself today the day this podcast comes out. 530 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: That's right, Operation Avalanche is in a theater near you, uh, 531 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: starting September six, two thousand and sixteen. Uh. And Matt, 532 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: we want to thank you so much for your time today. 533 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: And this is uh, this is an astonishing look at 534 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: I guess it's almost a UM, it's a terrifyingly possible 535 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: explanation for a moon landing hoax that is ultimately seemingly impossible. 536 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: It's just you guys were way too successful with convincing me, 537 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: at least personally. Yeah, yeah, and uh we think we 538 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: we we want to commend you on a job well 539 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: done and we hope that everybody checks out this film. 540 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: Before we before we end today's episode, we wanted to 541 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: give the last word to you. Is there is there 542 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: anything that you would like to add about Operation Avalanche 543 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: or say directly to people who are also fascinated by 544 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: the idea that the moon landing was faked? Yeah, and 545 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: I think what's the What I'd like to say is 546 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: that I don't believe the moon landing was faked, but 547 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: it's very clear that like an environment of lives existed 548 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: in the United States during the nineteen sixties which they 549 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: used to manipulate the public at large. And just because 550 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: the moon landing like wasn't by the CIA, doesn't mean 551 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: that there weren't dozens and dozens and dozens of instances 552 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: in which institutions like the CIA heavily manipulated the truth 553 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: to change the policies of the United States too with 554 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: their citizens. So um, so, I mean, hopefully people are 555 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: getting that from this movie without necessarily needing to believe 556 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: in the conspiracy um. But but we're happy with it 557 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: either way. At some level, it's just sort of a 558 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: cool story. Matt, thank you again so much. And listeners 559 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: do check out, uh, do check out the upcoming Operation 560 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: Avalanche at the theater near you September six, the day 561 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: this comes out. So if you're listening to this the 562 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: day it comes out, then hopefully you're already on your 563 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: way to the theater driving there now. So pretty interesting stuff. 564 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: What do you think. I loved that interview. I could 565 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: talk to Matt Johnson for a long time because he 566 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: was very open about not believing himself personally in the 567 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: moon landing conspiracy. But he was also able to construct 568 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: a film that convinced me of something that I've never 569 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: been convinced of, which is that you wouldn't need, you know, 570 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of people in on the conspiracy. You 571 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: would just need a select few. That's something that we 572 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: try to do, where we try to look at both 573 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: sides of an issue and be respectful to those that 574 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: you know, might believe differently than we ourselves do from 575 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: time to time. Certainly absolutely so. Also, I I still 576 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: don't think we have maybe the best answer to why 577 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: the moon landings or moon lunar missions stopped the idea 578 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: that it would be a funding issue seems pretty compelling, 579 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: and I enjoyed Matt Johnson's prediction that the same thing 580 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: will occur with manned Mars missions. Yeah, as soon as 581 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 1: the zeitgeist kind of leaves and moves on to something else, 582 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: then it'll be difficult to get taxpayers to say, yeah, 583 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: let's give a good portion of our taxes to this. 584 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: And we want to know what you think, listeners, given 585 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: some of the stuff we outlines here, do you believe 586 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: two paraphrase R A M. Do you believe they put 587 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: a man on the moon or do you believe that 588 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: this is all some elaborate wag the dog hoax? And 589 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: if so, why we've all checked out room to thirty 590 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 1: seven in this room, Nola, Matt, and I, and we've 591 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: all delved into the Stanley Kubrick side the theory of it. 592 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: So we would like to hear from you. And if 593 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: you think that the moon landing did occur, but occurred 594 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: perhaps under different circumstances, maybe some other group got their first, 595 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: or maybe moon landings continued in secret, we'd love to 596 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 1: hear more details about those theories. Kuber burned his set. 597 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: I mean, come on, guys, he burned his set. I know. 598 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: It's like, hey, you can't. Nobody else will be able 599 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: to use this stuff. It will only live in the celluloid. 600 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,720 Speaker 1: Now my film these sets, but still I don't know, guys. 601 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 1: And you can also check out some of our earlier 602 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: video episodes on Lunar conspiracies, as well as a video 603 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: will have coming out that addresses the one oh one, 604 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: the introduction to the belief that the moon landing was hoaxed. Yeah, 605 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: it really focuses on the Apollo eleven mission itself. And guys, 606 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: you know where you can find us If you want 607 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,919 Speaker 1: to go dig deep, dive down that rabbit hole into 608 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: our back catalog, you can find every podcast we've ever 609 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: recorded at stuff they don't want you to know dot 610 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: Com or if you are more into you know, using 611 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: a Spotify or a stitcher or an iTunes made me 612 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,919 Speaker 1: go do that. But do us a solid if there's 613 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: a way, leave us some kind words. It helps people 614 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: discover the show and helps the algorithm push us out 615 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: to more potential listeners, and also, you know, make it's 616 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: a little less likely to get fired. Absolutely. You can 617 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: also find us on Twitter and Facebook, where we conspiracy Stuff. 618 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: You can check out our Instagram where we are Conspiracy 619 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: Stuff Show. And if you don't want to do any 620 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: of that stuff and you just want to write some 621 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: words down and then send them our way, write an 622 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: email to conspiracy at how stuff works dot com. And 623 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: we don't say this often, but we do have a 624 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 1: physical address, and if you would like to send us 625 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: snail mail, shoot us an email for that address,